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#1 Posted by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio
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season 8 jon replaces season 1 jon in this scene .
does jaime still smile afterwards ?
movie versions only .
jaime has his season 1 gear (from his fight against ned stark)
jon has longclaw . both have daggers as secondary weapons .

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#2 Posted by phillip33 (4483 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure what this is even about. They didn’t fight in that scene, and Jon turned into more of a pus than he was in season 1 in season 8.

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#3 Posted by Redshift_Bacon (912 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure what this is even about. They didn’t fight in that scene, and Jon turned into more of a pus than he was in season 1 in season 8.

This.

OT: If you're asking about Season 1 Jamie vs Season 8 Jon, still Season 1 Jamie. Every round.

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#4 Posted by Tony501 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

Season 1 Jamie is the best fighter in current GoT

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#6 Posted by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@tony501 said:

Season 1 Jamie is the best fighter in current GoT

i know s1 jaime should be the best "by default" but he did not do anything that impressive in the show .
just curious what people might think about this .
i have a feeling most people just say jaime because it is "expected" .

also jaime is not the best fighter in TV game of thrones , not after we saw what dayne can do .

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#7 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@tony501 said:

Season 1 Jamie is the best fighter in current GoT

i know s1 jaime should be the best "by default" but he did not do anything that impressive in the show .

just curious what people might think about this .

i have a feeling most people just say jaime because it is "expected" .

also jaime is not the best fighter in TV game of thrones , not after we saw what dayne can do .

  • Made his first kill as a squire at the age of 16.
  • Youngest knight to ever join the Kingsguard.
  • Killed Jory Cassel in one move without breaking a sweat, moments after we saw Jory kill 3 Lannister soldiers in seconds.
  • You may or may not disagree with me on this, but I maintain that he was toying with Ned throughout most of their little duel. Just going to say that I've argued for this so much I'm not intending on arguing this specific point again, so whether you agree or disagree with me, that's fine. I've reviewed this enough times to make up my mind on the subject.
  • Killed at least 10 of Robb Stark's men (Theon only saw 10, so it was probably more than that) at the Battle of the Whispering Wood. It was a battle stacked heavily against Jaime, with Robb's army having the better ground and element of surprise.
  • Robb refused to duel him even though Jaime was injured because he acknowledged the fact that Jaime would win.
  • When Tyrion named Jaime his champion for his trial by combat at the Eyrie, it made every single person in the room nervous.
  • Tywin said Jaime has skill that few other men possess. Tywin isn't someone to exaggerate such things, even (or rather, especially) when it comes to his own son.
  • Was said to be the best warrior in the world at the time of the Greyjoy Rebellion. Euron Greyjoy stated that after witnessing Jaime fighting at the SIege of Pyke, he realized that this reputation was well-deserved, describing Jaime's fighting to be glorious, like a dance.
  • Was able to match Bronn in a sparring session with only his left hand. Matched strength with him while using only his left hand and Bronn was using both hands.
  • Matched Brienne in strength in their duel on the bridge, while malnourished, after a year's captivity, wearing nothing but rags, and with his hands cuffed.
  • Matched Obara Sand in a duel using only his left hand.
  • Survived the Long Night while being positioned on the front line.

He did quite a lot actually.

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#8 Posted by JediXMan (42883 posts) - - Show Bio

There is no version of Jon that can beat prime Jaime.

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#9 Posted by Amcu (17070 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think its a stomp but Jamie should still win decisively.

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#10 Posted by DivineVisitor (269 posts) - - Show Bio

Definition of a mismatch. Only person I'd favour against Jamie with both hands would be Selmy.

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#11 Posted by nfactor1995 (13003 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

I don't think its a stomp but Jamie should still win decisively.

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#12 Edited by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

again wast majority of those feats are off screen or just hype .
he was never able to match bronn with one hand , bronn was paid to train with him and made a fool out of him on couple occasions (bitch slap with his own golden hand)
(bronn could kill one handed jaime in seconds if he goes all out)

furthermore if we are going down this road i can also say by the hype "jon is the greatest swordsman who ever lived" (pre battle of bastards ramsay talk)
ramsay also refused to duel jon after jon challenged him same as robb refused to fight jaime ,
later on an exhausted jon stomps ramsay with his bare hands .
killing 10 or more men in battle is impressive but how many men jon killed in BoB or hardhome or battle at castle black ?
and he actually did it on screen .

in s8e5 jon one shots a couple of armoured lannister soldiers while actually trying to stop the fighting around him .

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#13 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

Jaime isn’t stomping Jon, that’s just not happening. He does win every time though.

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#14 Edited by LyonKnight (173 posts) - - Show Bio

@tony501 said:

Season 1 Jamie is the best fighter in current GoT

No he is not unless you exclude everyone that is already dead during that time.

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#15 Posted by LyonKnight (173 posts) - - Show Bio

Jon has better accomplishments on screen. Jaime is better from a lore;hype viewpoint.

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#16 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

You are right, Jon killed more people in the BotB. However, the fact that it was on-screen doesn't make much difference, on the contrary. It actually allows us to know that several of these kills were from the back and that Jon needed to be saved by his men more than once. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good feat for Jon but doesn't really put him that far above most other fodder-mowing feats in the show. And Jon didn't really "stomp" Ramsay because Ramsay wasn't exactly fighting back. He punched the crazy out if him, sure, but it wasn't a fight. Just a beating. Ramsay didn't even try to fight back, he knew it was pointless because his army was defeated.

I don't think we saw Jon killing 10 men on-screen at Castle Black. And Hardhome was a battle against wights where everybody scored dozens of kills, that's just how fights against wights look like. Jon doesn't have feats like Jaime killing Jory in one move, after we saw how good Jory is. I think that the only established fighter we saw Jon defeat was Styr and that was a very close fight.

If you want to go down the "hype" road then please do, Jaime has more reputation that anyone in the series. Ramsay refusing to fight Jon cannot be compared to Robb refusing to fight Jaime, and here's why:

  • Ramsay was a coward who led from the back. We saw it in the BotB itself, where Ramsay never even drew his sword and ran away back to Winterfell the moment he saw his army was going to lose. Robb on the other hand was a man who lead from the front and took an active part in all of his battles. It was expected of Ramsay to refuse a fight because of who he is. Robb, not so much.
  • Ramsay said that he doesn't know whether he could beat Jon in a fight, but figured that it isn't worth the risk since he knows that his army can beat Jon's, and that was a wise decision in all honesty, regardless of who would have won a fight between Jon and Ramsay (which would have been Jon of course). Robb on the other hand, explicitly said that if he and Jaime were to fight, Jaime would have won.
  • Jaime was injured when Robb confronted him. Jon wasn't.
  • Jon's hype as the greatest swordsman who ever lived was just that, hype. Jaime's hype was actually confirmed by Euron who witnessed him firsthand. Euron was openly mocking him in that very same scene so we know it was a genuine compliment and he wasn't just trying to kiss Jaime's arse or anything.

Regarding Bronn, well yeah of course Bronn would have beaten Leftie Jaime in a real fight, not easily though. That doesn't mean that Jaime didn't match him in a spar, which he did. Bronn had to use that dirty trick, which only worked because nobody would have expected that to happen in a training session. In a real fight, sure, everything goes. In a sparring session, that move that Bronn made is akin to rage-quitting.

Jon cutting down the odd Lannister troop in episode 5 isn't really all that. He has so many other feats that are plain better that I'm not even sure why you brought it up in the first place.

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#17 Edited by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: if you are reffering to that part in battle where jon was caught by surprise and knocked down he was still fighting the man standing above him .
the fact tormund stabbed that man in the back to help jon does not mean jon was "saved" , because he was still fighting at that point even when he was on the ground .
the second time was pure chaos , when crowd of hundreds is trampling you there is really not much you can do skill wise .

but this is also irrelevant since jaime would have been killed in the battle : they only took him alive because he had a great value as a hostage .
jon being knocked down once or twice in all that chaos while still fighting does not discredit his skills .

what about euron ?
yes euron admired jaime because he witnessed what he can do ,
and the men who saw jon fight admired him
jon also gets his reputation based on his fighting skills in multiple battles .
of course those tales and statements grow out of proportion over time but this goes both ways .

ramsay made a logical choice of course but that does not change the fact jon had a huge reputation at that point and ramsay feared to face him 1v1 .

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#18 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: Jon wasn't "still fighting", he was desperately trying to keep the soldier's sword away from him. Had Tormund arrived 5 seconds later Jon most likely would have been dead. Again, Jaime's loss at the Whispering Woods was because Robb had the element of surprise, advantageous ground and strength in numbers. The fact that Jaime even managed to cut down some men, let alone 10 of them, is impressive all in itself. Jon having to rely at his men being there at the right time does make his performance at the BotB less impressive than it would have been otherwise, because if not for some circumstantial luck, he would have been dead a few times over. And I'm not even talking about the part where Jon was trampled, but when he was about to get rammed by a Bolton horseman and was saved at the last moment by one of his men and never even noticed it.

The men that saw Jon fight never referred to him as "the best". Tormund once said Jon can fight well, which he most definitely can. Compare that to Euron who said that Jaime isn't just good, but the very best. Unstoppable. Euron saw Jaime fight and confirmed that his reputation is well earned. Robb saw Jaime fight and admitted that he is afraid to face him in a duel. Ramsay never saw Jon fight, and never met anyone who saw Jon fight, for all we know he never even heard those rumors about Jon to begin with and made them up as an excuse to avoid dueling him. Think about it, when did anyone else ever said such a thing about Jon, other than Ramsay?

Jon's reputation never crossed the walls of Castle Black, honestly. After leaving the Night's Watch he was a nobody in the North, nobody's ever heard about him or his accomplishments. He had good reputation among his brothers at the Night's Watch and among some of the Wildlings but that's pretty much it. Tales do tend to grow out of proportion, but when someone who saw you fight with their own eyes tells you that you're the best fighter that he'd seen, it isn't blowing it out of proportion. When someone who just saw you fight is afraid to face you even though you're injured and he isn't, that's not blowing it out of proportion. That's genuine. When someone who never saw you fight, or even met anyone who saw you fight, tells you that he heard stories about you... that's probably blown out of proportion.

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#19 Edited by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: yes whether you like it or not jon was still fighting .
he wasn´t defenseless or unconscious or disarmed or at anyones mercy at any point in the battle .
on the contrary i think had tormund not arrived jon would have still managed to kill that man few moments later .

euron was half mad in his own right so i would not take anything he says too seriously tbh .
jon´s reputation was well spread all over the north , do you think men would follow a bastard boy into battle and be united by him .
this is a society where people despise and spit on bastards .
jon as a bastard was lord commander and later on elected as king in the north solely based on his fighting skills and leadership .
this was unheard of before in westeros and almost impossible to achieve .

also how jaime fought/performed is just speculation , we don´t know if he was knocked down once or twice , or struggled against someone .
it is just speculation .
all we know is he killed at least 10 men before being subdued but we don´t know anything else .

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#20 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4605 posts) - - Show Bio

Prime Jaime quite easily.

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#21 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

yes whether you like it or not jon was still fighting .

he wasn´t defenseless or unconscious or disarmed or at anyones mercy at any point in the battle .

on the contrary i think had tormund not arrived jon would have still managed to kill that man few moments later

Jon was still alive*, saying he was "still fighting" is stretching it far above what actually happened down there.

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He got knocked to the ground and was barely even keeping himself alive by the time Tormund arrived. He didn't even make a move to fight back, all he did was desperately blocking the enemy soldier's strikes. Then when he gets up he's completely dazed until Tormund snaps him back to reality. 5 more seconds and he would have been dead right then and there. Saying he would have made it out alive by himself is a guess based on nothing other than your gut and the way this ordeal went down, the odds are you're grievously wrong about this.

euron was half mad in his own right so i would not take anything he says too seriously tbh .

What does Euron being a sadistic psycho have to do with anything? Say anything you want about him but the man knows how to fight. So when he said that Jaime was the best warrior he ever saw, and that he started believing the rumors about him being the best warrior he ever saw after he actually witnessed him in action, that means quite a lot. Conor McGregor is also not 100% sane but you would believe him if he said that X was the best MMA fighter he'd ever seen, right?

jon´s reputation was well spread all over the north , do you think men would follow a bastard boy into battle and be united by him .

No, which is exactly why nobody other than Lyanna Mormont (who sent no more than 60-something men) agreed to follow him, and she did so not because she believed in Jon (she never even heard of him prior to their meeting), but because Davos convinced her that the Night King is a threat that they need to face together.

jon as a bastard was lord commander and later on elected as king in the north solely based on his fighting skills and leadership . this was unheard of before in westeros and almost impossible to achieve .

Jon was elected Lord Commander because of his skills and leadership, true, Which is why I said that he had good reputation among his brothers at Castle Black. He was elected King in the North because he beat Ramsay Bolton (he really didn't, actually, the Knights of the Vale did), which earned him the trust and respect of the Northers lords. But that is irrelevant. We were discussing the merit of what Ramsay said about Jon being the greatest swordsman who ever lived, and as things stand, the merit of these things is very questionable. Jon had absolutely no reputation in the North before the Battle of the Bastards which is why nobody followed him. And as such, Ramsay hearing these rumors about him might as well be a lie, and even if he did hear these things then they were likely blown way out of proportion because there's nobody who ever saw Jon fight and could tell Ramsay about him.

also how jaime fought/performed is just speculation , we don´t know if he was knocked down once or twice , or struggled against someone .

it is just speculation .

all we know is he killed at least 10 men before being subdued but we don´t know anything else .

That's right, we don't know how things really went down. But we know Jon did struggle, and did get nearly killed at numerous points in the battle. Given how disadvantageous Jaime's army was at the Whispering Woods, we can assume that there's no feasible way he would have struggled like Jon did without getting killed or captured sooner. Honestly, Jon's army wasn't yet at a disadvantage before Ramsay sent in his reserves, the battle was fairly equal, no one-sided like the Battle of the Whispering Woods was. Jaime was under tougher conditions and still killed 10 men, apparently he made such a show of it that Robb was still afraid to face him afterwards even though Jaime was injured. And Robb wasn't at all bad a fighter himself, mind you.

As it stands, Jon might be the one with the more numerous feats, but nothing he's ever done is above Jaime's pay grade, while Jaime did do things that Jon haven't, like dropping a skilled fighter in one move like fodder, or matching other noteworthy fighters with only his left hand, and that's beside his rightfully-deserved accolades and reputation.

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#22 Posted by 20damon (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

You are right, Jon killed more people in the BotB. However, the fact that it was on-screen doesn't make much difference, on the contrary. It actually allows us to know that several of these kills were from the back and that Jon needed to be saved by his men more than once. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good feat for Jon but doesn't really put him that far above most other fodder-mowing feats in the show. And Jon didn't really "stomp" Ramsay because Ramsay wasn't exactly fighting back. He punched the crazy out if him, sure, but it wasn't a fight. Just a beating. Ramsay didn't even try to fight back, he knew it was pointless because his army was defeated.

I don't think we saw Jon killing 10 men on-screen at Castle Black. And Hardhome was a battle against wights where everybody scored dozens of kills, that's just how fights against wights look like. Jon doesn't have feats like Jaime killing Jory in one move, after we saw how good Jory is. I think that the only established fighter we saw Jon defeat was Styr and that was a very close fight.

If you want to go down the "hype" road then please do, Jaime has more reputation that anyone in the series. Ramsay refusing to fight Jon cannot be compared to Robb refusing to fight Jaime, and here's why:

  • Ramsay was a coward who led from the back. We saw it in the BotB itself, where Ramsay never even drew his sword and ran away back to Winterfell the moment he saw his army was going to lose. Robb on the other hand was a man who lead from the front and took an active part in all of his battles. It was expected of Ramsay to refuse a fight because of who he is. Robb, not so much.
  • Ramsay said that he doesn't know whether he could beat Jon in a fight, but figured that it isn't worth the risk since he knows that his army can beat Jon's, and that was a wise decision in all honesty, regardless of who would have won a fight between Jon and Ramsay (which would have been Jon of course). Robb on the other hand, explicitly said that if he and Jaime were to fight, Jaime would have won.
  • Jaime was injured when Robb confronted him. Jon wasn't.
  • Jon's hype as the greatest swordsman who ever lived was just that, hype. Jaime's hype was actually confirmed by Euron who witnessed him firsthand. Euron was openly mocking him in that very same scene so we know it was a genuine compliment and he wasn't just trying to kiss Jaime's arse or anything.

Regarding Bronn, well yeah of course Bronn would have beaten Leftie Jaime in a real fight, not easily though. That doesn't mean that Jaime didn't match him in a spar, which he did. Bronn had to use that dirty trick, which only worked because nobody would have expected that to happen in a training session. In a real fight, sure, everything goes. In a sparring session, that move that Bronn made is akin to rage-quitting.

Jon cutting down the odd Lannister troop in episode 5 isn't really all that. He has so many other feats that are plain better that I'm not even sure why you brought it up in the first place.

I agree with most of what you said with the exception of Bronn needing to slap Jamie with his own hand. He was obviously toying with him in their sparring sessions. HOWEVER, that is not a measurement of Jamie's skill in any way, since he had just previously admitted to his father that everything felt off, he moved wrong etc. Bronn WAS toying with Jamie in those sparring sessions, but that takes nothing away from Jamie's previous skill due to context and circumstances. Other than that i mostly agree with your assessment.

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#23 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Well, that's the truth about the first times they sparred, and while I definitely think that Bronn could have beaten Jaime in that training session, I just don't think it would have been easy for him. Bronn was pulling his punches for sure but I think it was meant to show Jaime was starting to get better with his left hand and rise above the fodder level he was before. The main thing I took from this scene though, is the strength feat that showed Jaime easily matching strength with Bronn using only his left hand while Bronn was using both hands. Jaime was having it easy and was even smiling while Bronn was visibly struggling:

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#24 Edited by SwordofDamocles (336 posts) - - Show Bio

Jaime on horse killed like five Dotrakhi on seconds and that was his first battle with his left hand. Jaime did as well as Brienne fighting the army of the death. Jaime stomped Jory. Jaime matched Brienne for seconds despite a horrible condition. Even if those two feats where a little contextual. Jaime feats are better than those Jon showed giving the circumstances , hell he always showed incredible ressources while being always not at full condition because whatever the reasons.

Jon have great fodders heroic-stomping feats ? Cool so did Jaime. Just that was offscreen. That was pretty clear he destroyed right and left a bunch of Ironborn (and maybe some Greyjoy relatives) during the Siege of Pyk while being in the front lines.

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#25 Posted by 20damon (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Well, that's the truth about the first times they sparred, and while I definitely think that Bronn could have beaten Jaime in that training session, I just don't think it would have been easy for him. Bronn was pulling his punches for sure but I think it was meant to show Jaime was starting to get better with his left hand and rise above the fodder level he was before. The main thing I took from this scene though, is the strength feat that showed Jaime easily matching strength with Bronn using only his left hand while Bronn was using both hands. Jaime was having it easy and was even smiling while Bronn was visibly struggling:

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Jamie's the stronger one for sure, but the position also favors Jamie because of leverage etc. But like i said, i simply think it's irrelevant and takes nothing away from Jamie's skill to get stomped by Bronn under those circumstances with that context :)

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#26 Edited by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: saying jon would be dead "5 seconds" later is just your gut feeling as well .
and it is even bigger stretch of imagination than me saying he would get out of that situation by himself based on his performance before
he got knocked down yes but he was still blocking every strike waiting for some opening .
i think assuming (or rather making an educated guess) jon would kill that man is faaar more realistic guess than him being killed then and there .

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#27 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: saying jon would be dead "5 seconds" later is just your gut feeling as well .

and it is even bigger stretch of imagination than me saying he would get out of that situation by himself based on his performance before

he got knocked down yes but he was still blocking every strike waiting for some opening .

i think assuming (or rather making an educated guess) jon would kill that man is faaar more realistic guess than him being killed then and there .

It really isn't a stretch, Jon was on the ground, barely keeping up with the soldier pummeling at him, and was completely dazed when he got up meaning the soldier was starting to overwhelm him. The only stretch I might have made is saying he would have been dead in 5 seconds. But I wouldn't give him more than 10.

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#28 Posted by Crimson-Feather (155 posts) - - Show Bio

Jaime should win.

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#29 Posted by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: no . still just a stretch .
on screen jon was still fighting and blocking every strike . period .
what would happen have tormund not arrived is pure speculation .
and it is much more likely jon would prevail either way .

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#30 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: It really isn't a stretch. Look at the scene, Jon was dazed after Tormund came and had to be brought back to his senses, in such a condition I don't see how he would have kept up his defense for much longer. If he could have fought back, he would have done it by the time Tormund came. He didn't. He was desperately trying to protect himself from the enemy soldier's sword. Regardless of how that would have gone had Tormund not arrived in time, Jaime still wins this.

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#31 Posted by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: yes he was trying to protect himself which means he used his sword = defending himself ,
and he was successful in doing so since that soldier could not find an opening to kill or harm jon .
also jon has shown skills and feats that make it save to assume he would prevail few moments later by stabbing or kicking that man to get him of his feets .

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#32 Posted by godzilla44 (7594 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I think Jamie would win this fight but I think your really downplaying a lot of Jon's feats. Saying some random Bolton soldier would kill him just because he was knock down and dazed. When the same thing happened to him against the white walker and was thrown around, he came out victorious anyways. I would see this fight going down very similar to Ned vs Jamie, it being a close fight (I know you don't agree with that) but clearly you can tell Jamie was going to win.

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5cf14faf09654 (66 posts) - - Show Bio

too close to call

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#34 Edited by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: @dark_globe: Honestly, there's no reason to assume Jon would have survived that encounter without Tormund's intervention only because he's a good fighter in general. Any good fighter can be felled. By the same token I can say Grey Worm would have survived his fight against the Sons of the Harpy even without Barristan saving him because he has other good feats, even though he was injured and on his knees. He still held his spear, so he was still "fighting", right? Well, no. Being in such a disadvantageous position means you're likely to get killed regardless of how good you are in general. I stick by my claim that if Jon had the ability to fight back, he would have done so by the time Tormund arrived. I'm saying this because we saw other characters doing that in the show: the Hound did it against the Mountain's Men at the inn. Brienne did it against the Hound. Jaime did it against Euron Greyjoy. All Jon did was block the non-stopping blows from the soldier who was standing on top of him, delaying an inevitable end. It's evident by Jon's state of mind after he got back up how close to death he was: he was completely dazed, barely even able to understand Tormund. Compare that to how he was during the rest of that battle (both before and after that small encounter with the soldier) - while he was angrier than ever, he was still capable of rational thought and had his wits about him. After getting up from that pummeling, he needed Tormund to literally shake him back to his senses. That's not the reaction you'd expect from someone who was in control of the situation; he was at the soldier's mercy, and would have died if not for Tormund. Would that soldier have killed him in a regular one-on-one? Heck, probably not. But in that situation, he managed to catch Jon off-guard and had the complete upper hand.

The White Walker isn't a good comparison. He was throwing Jon around, not hammering at him non-stop. He gave Jon the chance to get up.

Be that as it may, even if you convince me somehow that Jon would have killed that soldier (you won't), that still wouldn't change my mind. There's just no version of Jon that stands a chance against a serious two-handed Jaime.

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#35 Posted by godzilla44 (7594 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I mean it was like 5 secs of the dude swinging down then Torrmund showed up, there's just not enough time to say if he was done for imo. The white walker comparison was to show even when he's had the snout beaten out of him he still a dangerous fighter. So saying Torrmund had to snap him out of a daze to continue fighting is reaching imo, he's shown even in the worst of circumstances he's able to fight.

I already said 2 handed Jamie beats Jon no question about it, I just don't think it will be easy.

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#36 Edited by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: Maybe there's not enough time to say for certain that he would have died, but it's really the most logical outcome. Considering the circumstances, and his mental state after being rescued, saying that he would have made it out alive is a far bigger reach, I think. Look at the scene, Tormund literally had to snap him out of his daze, it's not something I'm making up. Maybe he's never felt so close to dying until that point, that's really the best explanation I can think of. We all know Jon can fight after having the crazy beaten out of him, don't look farther than his fight with Styr. But that just serves to help strengthen my claim that he would have fought back if he could. He was utterly helpless in that scenario, otherwise he would have already fought back, like he did against Styr. The White Walker, as I said, isn't a good comparison, because while he did hurt Jon badly, he gave him time and space to get up after each time he tossed him around, something that neither Styr nor the Bolton man did.

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#37 Edited by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: you are just reaching , guessing and making assumptions based on air at this point .
also comparing this to grey worms fight is out of place since he was getting stabbed left and right and was already badly injured ,
his defences have been penetrated multiple times at that point .
jon´s defences were never broken , no one was able to stabb or hurt him , he was blocking every attack even on the ground .

also jon as mentioned above was able to get out of even more disadvantageous situations against stronger opponents in the past and came out on top .

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#38 Posted by SmoothSanta (2576 posts) - - Show Bio

Jaime

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#39 Posted by IAmInEvitable (100 posts) - - Show Bio

Lord snow

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#40 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: Well, both of us are just guessing, really. The difference is, that my guess is based on what we saw on screen and I'm giving a logical description of what would have happened considering the circumstances. Your guess is based on... I'm not even sure what you're basing it on other than Jon having other unrelated feats. The comparison to the White Walker fight is irrelevant because he left Jon with the chance to actually get up. Yeah, Jon was pretty hurt when he got up but we're not debating his endurance here. We're debating on whether or not he would have been able to kill that soldier without Tormund saving him. And based on the circumstances, the better guess is that he wouldn't have. As seen against Styr, when Jon can fight back, he does (and he was lucky to have that mallet close at hand when he fought him, else he probably would have been killed by Styr right then and there). Here, he was at too much of a disadvantageous position - flat on his back with that soldier standing over him raining blow after blow. His daze after getting up is also a good indication of how bad it was, when else did you see Jon react this way to anything?

Grey Worm is actually a perfect comparison. What does it matter that he was wounded? He was still alive and holding his weapon. According to your standards, he was "still fighting", just like Jon was "still fighting" that Bolton soldier even though he did nothing but desperately block the neverending blows. Who cares that Grey Worm was on the floor and with no conceivable way to fight back? He still had his spear and he has some... other good feats... so he would have prevailed and if you say otherwise you're just reaching and making assumptions based on air.

Sounds familiar?

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#41 Edited by dark_globe (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: no it does not sound familiar at all , you are just trying to twist this and my words to your favour .
grey worm actually had no feats prior to that fight as long as i remember .
also he was actually stabbed multiple times (which indicates his fighting abilities were hindered and his defences weaker) ,
jon never let anyone to get past his defences in that battle .
furthermore grey worm spend few days sleeping unconscious on his bed after the fight .
jon was never stabbed or badly injured and he even KO´ed ramsay afterwards .

jon got his head smashed against an anvil by much stronger opponent in the past
and still was able to shake it off and kill that opponent using a "dirty" trick to his advantage even when disarmed of his primary weapon .
so yeah actually jon has feats directly indicating he was just fine with his sword in hand against some fodder soldier
and would in fact kill that bolton soldier few moments later on his own .

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#42 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: I'm really not twisting anything. Your entire justification for saying that Jon would have survived is that he performed well on other occasions which are completely unrelated to this one and aren't even similar to it in any way. Yes, he has very good endurance being able to fight back after getting a beating from Styr. But he was never in a completely helpless position against him. When getting strangled by Styr, Jon was on his feet - here he was on his back. He was in luck to have the hammer nearby - here he had nothing. Trying to stab that soldier would have been easily blocked given his awkward position and would have left him completely open. All he could really do was try and block the soldier's strikes and hope someone would come, and come they did.

Grey Worm actually did have feats prior to that, but it doesn't matter. We're talking about this now, after he's gotten more feats, so I can freely say that he would have killed those Sons of the Harpy and lived. Why? Because he still had his weapon in his hand and he has other good feats.

Regardless, we're both just guessing really. Except my guess is based on what happened in the scene and yours is based on nothing even remotely related to the scene. And even if Jon would have killed that soldier, he still loses to Jaime.

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#43 Posted by phillip33 (4483 posts) - - Show Bio

This is silly. Jamie guts him

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#44 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13875 posts) - - Show Bio

People's opinions on Jamie are way too skewed from their love of the books.

In the series, Jon just has way better feats. The fact that people think Jamie wins, let alone stomps, is clear bias IMO.

If this was any other hype character, people would happily point out his lack of feats. But for some reason people make an exception with Jamie.

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#45 Posted by Six-Deuce (1458 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow: this dude is 100% correct. If we are fair and see two totally unnamed individuals totally unattached from the books....watch thier showings....a reasonable person would conclude that unnamed non-blonde dude is faster, stronger, and more skilled.