Jaime Lannister runs the GoT Gauntlet

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#1 rogueshadow  Moderator

Rules:

  • Game of Thrones versions. All in their in series primes.
  • In character, but determined to win.
  • Jaime wields Widow's Wail.
  • Begin fifteen feet apart at the Tower of Joy.

Jaime Lannister:

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vs

Round One: Ser Alliser Thorne

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Round Two: Arya Stark

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Round Three: Daario Naharis

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Round Four: Brienne of Tarth

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Round Five: Old Man Selmy

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Round Six: Ser Arthur Dayne

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Round One: No armour.

Round Two: Standard battle armour.

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Arthur, probably. Selmy can drop him, though.

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#3  Edited By TwentyGoodMen

Series only is harder to say, book Jaime could make it to Dayne but might stop at Selmy, depends if you think prime Jaime is above old Selmy which I think he is especially with Valyrian steel, show Jaime was disappointing since his fights were off screen- Whispering Woods- and he didn't show how his book version is one of the best if not the best swordsman alive in Westeros at the time

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#4 the_red_viper  Moderator

He gets to Dayne both rounds, and probably loses there. Although it's hard to say how much better Jaime will be in his prime with Valyrian Steel, I find it hard to imagine him being THAT good.

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Show Jaime still killed 10 of Robb’s men so he probably gets to Dayne. Daario could be a problem with throwing daggers.

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#6  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator

I'm not convinced show Jaime can get to Dayne. He isn't generally depicted or described as being of the same pedigree as his book counterpart, David Benioff said Ned/Jaime could've gone either way.

@highaccuser said:

Show Jaime still killed 10 of Robb’s men so he probably gets to Dayne. Daario could be a problem with throwing daggers.

In a battle though. It's a good feat, especially considering he was outnumbered, but it wasn't all at once as far as we know.

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Stops at Selmy in both show and books

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@rogueshadow: Maybe Ned got a buff in the show instead of Jaime getting nerfed? It's probably not the case but I'm spitballing

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@rogueshadow:

David Benioff said Ned/Jaime could've gone either way.

Source? And I don't think that takes anything away from Jaime, it could just be because of how good Ned is. He is still hyped up a lot in the show.

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Five or six. Definitely doesn't clear.

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Could stop at Selmy both times never getting past Dayne

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#12 rogueshadow  Moderator

@rogueshadow: Maybe Ned got a buff in the show instead of Jaime getting nerfed? It's probably not the case but I'm spitballing

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Book Jaime is not far off Dayne, if he actually is at all in universe without Dawn. Yet in the show Dayne could fight and defeat as close to prime Ned as we've seen, as well as 3 Northern men-at-arms with mid-diff, when I watch that fight, Dayne never even looks like he is truly pressed to me. Yet Jaime was roughly even with a Ned who hadn't seen combat in close to a decade and was most likely past his physical prime. It's possible that his skill/experience level would be higher by the time he fought Ned, but young Ned was likely already in or approaching his mid-twenties by the ToJ and already had reams of experience.

@lubub55 said:

@rogueshadow:

David Benioff said Ned/Jaime could've gone either way.

Source? And I don't think that takes anything away from Jaime, it could just be because of how good Ned is. He is still hyped up a lot in the show.

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Stops at Selmy in both show and books

You think 60 year old Selmy would beat a prime Jaime with a Valyrian steel sword?

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#15 the_red_viper  Moderator

@rogueshadow: I think we had that conversation once before, but I think that Jaime's feat in the Whispering Wood was just as good if not better than Selmy's in Meereen. While Barristan did kill more than 10 men (12-14, I get it differently every time I try to count lol), Jaime's enemies were actual soldiers, better geared and and better trained than the Sons of the Harpy, and very likely they were mounted as well. Moreover, Jaime killed 10 men that Theon saw, might very well be more than that. While Barristan's scene took place in a narrow corridor which favored his opponents more than it did him, but a dense woodland isn't the ideal battlefield either, much less when you're surrounded and ambushed (and a huge ass wolf is running around scaring all the horses). And now you give him Valyrian Steel as well, so there's that.

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#16 rogueshadow  Moderator

@rogueshadow: I think we had that conversation once before, but I think that Jaime's feat in the Whispering Wood was just as good if not better than Selmy's in Meereen. While Barristan did kill more than 10 men (12-14, I get it differently every time I try to count lol), Jaime's enemies were actual soldiers, better geared and and better trained than the Sons of the Harpy, and very likely they were mounted as well. Moreover, Jaime killed 10 men that Theon saw, might very well be more than that. While Barristan's scene took place in a narrow corridor which favored his opponents more than it did him, but a dense woodland isn't the ideal battlefield either, much less when you're surrounded and ambushed (and a huge ass wolf is running around scaring all the horses). And now you give him Valyrian Steel as well, so there's that.

Them being soldiers doesn't really make them any better than the Harpies, many soldiers would be just as untrained, and this was so early in the WOT5K likely the first battle many had seen. But I agree about their superior weapons/armour, making them superior fodder. My issue is that it all operates under the assumption he fought 10 men at once, and that it wasn't a Jon Snow scenario, two at a time, then one, then two, then three etc. Barristan walked straight at over a dozen men and took nearly all of them out, and he didn't even have armour, unlike Jaime. And this was at the age of 65, his in series prime would be season 1, age 60. I think a strong argument can be made for Old Man Selmy taking a solid majority over Jaime on the show.

Question: Who do you imagine Jaime was referring to when he said three men in the Kingdoms might beat him? I'd say Sandor, Gregor and Barristan.

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@rogueshadow: I don’t see any indication it wasn’t all at once. Given they took him alive that would be odd. How was it in the books? It’s been ages since I read the first one but the show was pretty much the same in season 1. I think if what Jaime did was the same as what Jon Snow and others have done it wouldn’t be been nearly as remarkable.

The reason I put him over Selmy is he’s much younger and should have a big strength advantage. He’s still pretty strong in the show.

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#18 rogueshadow  Moderator

@rogueshadow: I don’t see any indication it wasn’t all at once. Given they took him alive that would be odd. How was it in the books? It’s been ages since I read the first one but the show was pretty much the same in season 1. I think if what Jaime did was the same as what Jon Snow and others have done it wouldn’t be been nearly as remarkable.

The reason I put him over Selmy is he’s much younger and should have a big strength advantage. He’s still pretty strong in the show.

But there's no reason to assume it was all at once. It wasn't just Jaime by himself, he had several hundred men with him. In the books he's described as fighting his way to Robb and killing three of his personal guard, and that he would have killed Robb himself but his sword gets stuck in one of their necks/heads. The first season was the closest, but there were enormous differences, can't just assume the same thing happened.

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#19 the_red_viper  Moderator

@the_red_viper said:

@rogueshadow: I think we had that conversation once before, but I think that Jaime's feat in the Whispering Wood was just as good if not better than Selmy's in Meereen. While Barristan did kill more than 10 men (12-14, I get it differently every time I try to count lol), Jaime's enemies were actual soldiers, better geared and and better trained than the Sons of the Harpy, and very likely they were mounted as well. Moreover, Jaime killed 10 men that Theon saw, might very well be more than that. While Barristan's scene took place in a narrow corridor which favored his opponents more than it did him, but a dense woodland isn't the ideal battlefield either, much less when you're surrounded and ambushed (and a huge ass wolf is running around scaring all the horses). And now you give him Valyrian Steel as well, so there's that.

Them being soldiers doesn't really make them any better than the Harpies, many soldiers would be just as untrained, and this was so early in the WOT5K likely the first battle many had seen. But I agree about their superior weapons/armour, making them superior fodder. My issue is that it all operates under the assumption he fought 10 men at once, and that it wasn't a Jon Snow scenario, two at a time, then one, then two, then three etc. Barristan walked straight at over a dozen men and took nearly all of them out, and he didn't even have armour, unlike Jaime. And this was at the age of 65, his in series prime would be season 1, age 60. I think a strong argument can be made for Old Man Selmy taking a solid majority over Jaime on the show.

Question: Who do you imagine Jaime was referring to when he said three men in the Kingdoms might beat him? I'd say Sandor, Gregor and Barristan.

I agree with the bold. One might have been Oberyn, but I don't know abou that because I don't think Jaime knew him or his reputation well enough to be the judge of that, or even consider him.

Anyway, I don't think there should be much difference between S1 Selmy and Meereen Selmy. 5 years aren't such a long time in these terms, it's not like comparing ToJ Ned to season 1 Ned, or season 1 Jon to current Jon. The armor/no armor thing isn't much of an issue, because the Sons of the Harpy weren't armored as well, while Jaime's opponents were armored like him, so both Jaime and Selmy fought at even footing with their enemies as far as gear goes.

About the quality of soldiers compared to the Sons, I'd still say that the soldiers should be better. They did get at least minimal training, whereas the Sons were just angry former nobles (or non-slaves at least) who took up knives. In the books it also said that the Ghiscari weren't even good fighters as a whole, but that's beside the point. As for Jaime's scenario, I'd imagine that Robb's army did try to swarm him since the whole point of the battle was to capture Jaime. They wouldn't have risked anything less than swarming him, since Robb knew full well that Jaime is a deadly swordsman and could probably out-duel anyone that would try and take on him (when Jaime offered Robb to settle the war with single combat, Robb refused because he knew Jaime would win). Not engaging Jaime at all would be an even worse idea since that would give him the chance to flee and then the whole fight would be for nothing. The only solution would be to swarm the man.

Then there's the subject of strength, Jaime's strength is often very underrated. I think that matching Bronn with only his left hand while Bronn was using both hands (and that was season 5 Jaime, when he was still just in the beginning of his left-hand training) is very impressive. Also there was the time when he matched strength with Brienne, who is strong herself, while Jaime was after a year in captivity. There's also Brienne being larger and taller as well as fully armored to consider, which means she had more weight behind her, especially considering Jaime's undernourishment. Barristan has no strength feats to compare and never had the reputation of being exceptionally strong or anything.

And on top of all that there's Widow's Wail to consider. I think that Jaime kinda sweeps the way up to Barristan, then struggles some against him, and finally loses to Dayne in a good fight.

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Stops at Arthur Dayne.

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#21 rogueshadow  Moderator

@rogueshadow said:
@the_red_viper said:

@rogueshadow: I think we had that conversation once before, but I think that Jaime's feat in the Whispering Wood was just as good if not better than Selmy's in Meereen. While Barristan did kill more than 10 men (12-14, I get it differently every time I try to count lol), Jaime's enemies were actual soldiers, better geared and and better trained than the Sons of the Harpy, and very likely they were mounted as well. Moreover, Jaime killed 10 men that Theon saw, might very well be more than that. While Barristan's scene took place in a narrow corridor which favored his opponents more than it did him, but a dense woodland isn't the ideal battlefield either, much less when you're surrounded and ambushed (and a huge ass wolf is running around scaring all the horses). And now you give him Valyrian Steel as well, so there's that.

Them being soldiers doesn't really make them any better than the Harpies, many soldiers would be just as untrained, and this was so early in the WOT5K likely the first battle many had seen. But I agree about their superior weapons/armour, making them superior fodder. My issue is that it all operates under the assumption he fought 10 men at once, and that it wasn't a Jon Snow scenario, two at a time, then one, then two, then three etc. Barristan walked straight at over a dozen men and took nearly all of them out, and he didn't even have armour, unlike Jaime. And this was at the age of 65, his in series prime would be season 1, age 60. I think a strong argument can be made for Old Man Selmy taking a solid majority over Jaime on the show.

Question: Who do you imagine Jaime was referring to when he said three men in the Kingdoms might beat him? I'd say Sandor, Gregor and Barristan.

I agree with the bold. One might have been Oberyn, but I don't know abou that because I don't think Jaime knew him or his reputation well enough to be the judge of that, or even consider him.

Anyway, I don't think there should be much difference between S1 Selmy and Meereen Selmy. 5 years aren't such a long time in these terms, it's not like comparing ToJ Ned to season 1 Ned, or season 1 Jon to current Jon. The armor/no armor thing isn't much of an issue, because the Sons of the Harpy weren't armored as well, while Jaime's opponents were armored like him, so both Jaime and Selmy fought at even footing with their enemies as far as gear goes.

About the quality of soldiers compared to the Sons, I'd still say that the soldiers should be better. They did get at least minimal training, whereas the Sons were just angry former nobles (or non-slaves at least) who took up knives. In the books it also said that the Ghiscari weren't even good fighters as a whole, but that's beside the point. As for Jaime's scenario, I'd imagine that Robb's army did try to swarm him since the whole point of the battle was to capture Jaime. They wouldn't have risked anything less than swarming him, since Robb knew full well that Jaime is a deadly swordsman and could probably out-duel anyone that would try and take on him (when Jaime offered Robb to settle the war with single combat, Robb refused because he knew Jaime would win). Not engaging Jaime at all would be an even worse idea since that would give him the chance to flee and then the whole fight would be for nothing. The only solution would be to swarm the man.

Then there's the subject of strength, Jaime's strength is often very underrated. I think that matching Bronn with only his left hand while Bronn was using both hands (and that was season 5 Jaime, when he was still just in the beginning of his left-hand training) is very impressive. Also there was the time when he matched strength with Brienne, who is strong herself, while Jaime was after a year in captivity. There's also Brienne being larger and taller as well as fully armored to consider, which means she had more weight behind her, especially considering Jaime's undernourishment. Barristan has no strength feats to compare and never had the reputation of being exceptionally strong or anything.

And on top of all that there's Widow's Wail to consider. I think that Jaime kinda sweeps the way up to Barristan, then struggles some against him, and finally loses to Dayne in a good fight.

  • I disagree. 60 -65 is massively different, in all likelihood, there was a massive degeneration in terms of physicals in that period.
  • Jaime's opponents would have been wearing mail and/or leather for the most part, so still not armoured as well as Jaime was.
  • There's nothing to suggest they've received training though, most are masons, tanners, smiths, swineherds, crofters etc., called up by their Lord, given a sword and off they go. I really doubt in the minds of the writers there's a disparity between them and the Harpies in ability.
  • I don't doubt that, on a larger scale, Robb's army would've swarmed Jaime's forces - but that still doesn't indicate he fought 10 men at once, which is still the major pivot of the argument. Regardless of the debate surrounding the quality of the soldiers, we have absolutely no idea how many he fought singlehandedly, fighting 2 or 3 at a time for a total of ten before being captured is entirely possible. Three better equipped Westerosi soldiers still isn't as impressive as 12/13 Ghiscari in my opinion. In the books, we know Jaime cut three of Robb's guard, it's obvious that Robb's Kingsguard are gonna all be surrounding Robb, so he would've almost certainly had to face them down as one.
  • Yeah, I don't doubt that Jaime is stronger than Selmy, and Widow's Wail is an advantage too. I'm not saying I think it's a mismatch, but I question whether he can get past him. Honestly Daario vs Jaime would be a decent fight on the show in my opinion.
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Stops at Selmy both rounds.

Arthur would destroy him.

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#23 the_red_viper  Moderator

@rogueshadow:

  • I disagree. 60 -65 is massively different, in all likelihood, there was a massive degeneration in terms of physicals in that period.
  • Jaime's opponents would have been wearing mail and/or leather for the most part, so still not armoured as well as Jaime was.
  • There's nothing to suggest they've received training though, most are masons, tanners, smiths, swineherds, crofters etc., called up by their Lord, given a sword and off they go. I really doubt in the minds of the writers there's a disparity between them and the Harpies in ability.
  • I don't doubt that, on a larger scale, Robb's army would've swarmed Jaime's forces - but that still doesn't indicate he fought 10 men at once, which is still the major pivot of the argument. Regardless of the debate surrounding the quality of the soldiers, we have absolutely no idea how many he fought singlehandedly, fighting 2 or 3 at a time for a total of ten before being captured is entirely possible. Three better equipped Westerosi soldiers still isn't as impressive as 12/13 Ghiscari in my opinion. In the books, we know Jaime cut three of Robb's guard, it's obvious that Robb's Kingsguard are gonna all be surrounding Robb, so he would've almost certainly had to face them down as one.
  • Yeah, I don't doubt that Jaime is stronger than Selmy, and Widow's Wail is an advantage too. I'm not saying I think it's a mismatch, but I question whether he can get past him. Honestly Daario vs Jaime would be a decent fight on the show in my opinion.
  • Well not really. 5 years compared to 60 is a very small difference, almost insignificant, especially considering the fact that Barristan's aging wasn't exactly the same as that of the average man, he was a freak of nature in that regard. As for physical conditions, I don't see a reason to assume there was any degeneration really, there's nothing to indicate that. In Meereen he lived in the Great Pyramid, enjoying the best conditions there are in the city, much like when he lived in King's Landing.
  • Well if you look at the scene where Jaime is captured you'll see that many men were actually wearing plate. Also don't forget that Robb had many knights and highborn lords with him. Harrion Karstark was killed in that battle, likely by Jaime if the books are any indication, and many men were mounted as well. Also, don't forget that the Sons were all using knives whereas Robb's men were using longswords, spears, and even shields. In any case, since they didn't try to kill Jaime but rather take him alive, his armor didn't play that big of a part anyway.
  • Well it's true enough that there wasn't any on-screen scene where we saw the men training, but we do know that they spent some time in Winterfell before marching south. While Robb was making plans with his bannermen, the soldiers were training. We see these things happen a lot in the books, and it's also historically accurate, so it probably happened in the show as well.
  • As I said, the whole point of the battle was to capture Jaime. He was the primary target and was centered out from the very beginning, so it's most likely that he was swarmed himself as well as his entire army as a whole. What;s more is that Jaime commands from the front, unlike Tywin, so he would have met Robb's army head on. And also, to be honest, Barristan didn't really fight all those Sons literally at the same time. I think that the only man in the show to fight more than 2 other people literally at the same time was Dayne, and maybe Syrio. Barristan fought 1-3 at a time in quick succession, really, there were many points throughout the scene where most Sons hang back while 1 or 2 others engage Barristan. Not that it isn't impressive, I think it's one of if not THE best fodder-mowing feats in the show so far, but it didn't go exactly as you describe it. It wasn't a ToJ-like scene.
  • Well honestly the only way I see Daario beating Jaime is with a knife-throw, and only if he does it as an opening move.
  • Another thing that I just now recall and should be brought up, is Jaime's conversation with his cousin Alton in the prison cell, right before he killed him and tried to run away. Jaime was telling him about the battle against the Kingswood Brotherhood, when he was 16 and squired for Barristan. He said that Barristan was amazing, and then he said this: "I couldn't imagine being able to fight like that. Not back then." While it's true that Jaime might not be the most credible source when speaking of himself, he did kinda say that his current self (as of season 2 that is) is as good as young Selmy. Even if he did stretch it (and I don't see a reason why he would), it couldn't be by much, which would actually make him better than 60 y/o Barristan.
  • Another thing to bring up as far as comparing Jaime to Selmy goes, is Euron's statement in S07E01. In Jaime's conversation with Alton in the prison cell, he described Barristan as a painter. When Euron spoke to Jaime in S07E01 about the battle at Pyke, he described him as a dancer. Honestly, the moment I saw the scene with Euron I immediately thought of Jaime's scene with Alton and of how much alike these 2 descriptions are. I think that it was actually meant to show people that Jaime turned to be just as much of a beast as Barristan was in his heyday, I really don't think that this similarity was coincidental, especially when you think on how many references to earlier seasons they made in season 7. It really put the nail on how good Jaime really is as far as I see it.
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@darthfallax: Certainly in the show, as Jaime is hardly impressive there and Barristan' s Son of the Harpy is feel is, while disgraceful to let him die like that, impressive.

I might be stretching in the books a bit, but without the Valyrian steel Barristan certainly wins.

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Stops at Dayne both rounds.

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@cdiddyman911: I judt can't see ADWD Selmy beating Jaime, though Prime! Barristan would certainly win. Not sure about Jaime with WW tho.

But fair enough.

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#28 rogueshadow  Moderator

@rogueshadow:

  • I disagree. 60 -65 is massively different, in all likelihood, there was a massive degeneration in terms of physicals in that period.
  • Jaime's opponents would have been wearing mail and/or leather for the most part, so still not armoured as well as Jaime was.
  • There's nothing to suggest they've received training though, most are masons, tanners, smiths, swineherds, crofters etc., called up by their Lord, given a sword and off they go. I really doubt in the minds of the writers there's a disparity between them and the Harpies in ability.
  • I don't doubt that, on a larger scale, Robb's army would've swarmed Jaime's forces - but that still doesn't indicate he fought 10 men at once, which is still the major pivot of the argument. Regardless of the debate surrounding the quality of the soldiers, we have absolutely no idea how many he fought singlehandedly, fighting 2 or 3 at a time for a total of ten before being captured is entirely possible. Three better equipped Westerosi soldiers still isn't as impressive as 12/13 Ghiscari in my opinion. In the books, we know Jaime cut three of Robb's guard, it's obvious that Robb's Kingsguard are gonna all be surrounding Robb, so he would've almost certainly had to face them down as one.
  • Yeah, I don't doubt that Jaime is stronger than Selmy, and Widow's Wail is an advantage too. I'm not saying I think it's a mismatch, but I question whether he can get past him. Honestly Daario vs Jaime would be a decent fight on the show in my opinion.
  • Well not really. 5 years compared to 60 is a very small difference, almost insignificant, especially considering the fact that Barristan's aging wasn't exactly the same as that of the average man, he was a freak of nature in that regard. As for physical conditions, I don't see a reason to assume there was any degeneration really, there's nothing to indicate that. In Meereen he lived in the Great Pyramid, enjoying the best conditions there are in the city, much like when he lived in King's Landing.
  • Well if you look at the scene where Jaime is captured you'll see that many men were actually wearing plate. Also don't forget that Robb had many knights and highborn lords with him. Harrion Karstark was killed in that battle, likely by Jaime if the books are any indication, and many men were mounted as well. Also, don't forget that the Sons were all using knives whereas Robb's men were using longswords, spears, and even shields. In any case, since they didn't try to kill Jaime but rather take him alive, his armor didn't play that big of a part anyway.
  • Well it's true enough that there wasn't any on-screen scene where we saw the men training, but we do know that they spent some time in Winterfell before marching south. While Robb was making plans with his bannermen, the soldiers were training. We see these things happen a lot in the books, and it's also historically accurate, so it probably happened in the show as well.
  • As I said, the whole point of the battle was to capture Jaime. He was the primary target and was centered out from the very beginning, so it's most likely that he was swarmed himself as well as his entire army as a whole. What;s more is that Jaime commands from the front, unlike Tywin, so he would have met Robb's army head on. And also, to be honest, Barristan didn't really fight all those Sons literally at the same time. I think that the only man in the show to fight more than 2 other people literally at the same time was Dayne, and maybe Syrio. Barristan fought 1-3 at a time in quick succession, really, there were many points throughout the scene where most Sons hang back while 1 or 2 others engage Barristan. Not that it isn't impressive, I think it's one of if not THE best fodder-mowing feats in the show so far, but it didn't go exactly as you describe it. It wasn't a ToJ-like scene.
  • Well honestly the only way I see Daario beating Jaime is with a knife-throw, and only if he does it as an opening move.
  • Another thing that I just now recall and should be brought up, is Jaime's conversation with his cousin Alton in the prison cell, right before he killed him and tried to run away. Jaime was telling him about the battle against the Kingswood Brotherhood, when he was 16 and squired for Barristan. He said that Barristan was amazing, and then he said this: "I couldn't imagine being able to fight like that. Not back then." While it's true that Jaime might not be the most credible source when speaking of himself, he did kinda say that his current self (as of season 2 that is) is as good as young Selmy. Even if he did stretch it (and I don't see a reason why he would), it couldn't be by much, which would actually make him better than 60 y/o Barristan.
  • Another thing to bring up as far as comparing Jaime to Selmy goes, is Euron's statement in S07E01. In Jaime's conversation with Alton in the prison cell, he described Barristan as a painter. When Euron spoke to Jaime in S07E01 about the battle at Pyke, he described him as a dancer. Honestly, the moment I saw the scene with Euron I immediately thought of Jaime's scene with Alton and of how much alike these 2 descriptions are. I think that it was actually meant to show people that Jaime turned to be just as much of a beast as Barristan was in his heyday, I really don't think that this similarity was coincidental, especially when you think on how many references to earlier seasons they made in season 7. It really put the nail on how good Jaime really is as far as I see it.
  • Don't really know what more to add to this. I definitely think a 60 year old man will almost certainly be in much better shape than his 65 year old self. The point about Barristan being freakish is fair though. Exactly how ASOIAF characters age as warriors isn't entirely clear to me.
  • I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of soldiers being trained at that point, Robb gathers his forces and they leave within days, time was of the essence due to Ned rotting in a cell, haste was the whole point, that was why Robb didn't get nearly all of the North's forces.
  • Was it stated they wanted him alive in the show? Once they had him, they kept him alive, but I don't think they went in with a mind to capture him alive at all costs did they. Because that would actually makes the feat less impressive than I thought it was, if they were trying not to kill him I mean.
  • Barristan was engaged in combat with them all at the same time, they weren't literally attacking at once, but he was engaging with them all in combat at once. If you look at a fight like Ra's Al Ghul in Arrow, they don't all attack him at once, but he is still engaging with them all simultaneously, they aren't stood in the corner and then pop out when it's their turn. You take Oliver in a hallway fighting two at a time or Jon fighting two at a time at the BotB vs Ra's/Barristan's feats. There's a big difference.
  • That's not what I take from that line and I've never taken anything from Jaime's own word pre-hand loss seriously - about himself I mean. I don't see a character saying "I'm great", or "I'm as good as X" a feat or accolade, and I don't think the logic from that is so clear, fighting like that doesn't mean he thinks he's literally as good anyway.
  • I did like that scene, that was when they actually felt like they were giving Jaime his due, I wish there were more lines like that, preferably from somebody like Barristan or the Hound, but then against that we straight from the horse's mouth we have Benioff saying he's Ned's equal. And in my opinion, Barristan's and Dayne's feats are the two feats where the writers really felt like they were setting these characters apart for the audience. Not one person has walked into a room with 14 men and killed 13 of them, and I don't feel convinced that anybody but Selmy and Dayne could, not without armour. Barristan's been set apart in a way I just don't think Jaime ever really has been on the show, I don't think young Jaime vs Old Barristan is as certain in the show as it is in the books.
  • Also, yeah, I forgot to say, I don't think it was Oberyn he was speaking, he was known to be a great warrior, but Jaime wouldn't have known enough about him. There's a moment where you can actually see Jaime realise how good he is in the OvG fight.
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Honestly, I could see him having a hard time with Brienne, don't think he can get past Selmy though. Even if he isn't prime.

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#30 the_red_viper  Moderator

@rogueshadow:

  • Don't really know what more to add to this. I definitely think a 60 year old man will almost certainly be in much better shape than his 65 year old self. The point about Barristan being freakish is fair though. Exactly how ASOIAF characters age as warriors isn't entirely clear to me.
  • I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of soldiers being trained at that point, Robb gathers his forces and they leave within days, time was of the essence due to Ned rotting in a cell, haste was the whole point, that was why Robb didn't get nearly all of the North's forces.
  • Was it stated they wanted him alive in the show? Once they had him, they kept him alive, but I don't think they went in with a mind to capture him alive at all costs did they. Because that would actually makes the feat less impressive than I thought it was, if they were trying not to kill him I mean.
  • Barristan was engaged in combat with them all at the same time, they weren't literally attacking at once, but he was engaging with them all in combat at once. If you look at a fight like Ra's Al Ghul in Arrow, they don't all attack him at once, but he is still engaging with them all simultaneously, they aren't stood in the corner and then pop out when it's their turn. You take Oliver in a hallway fighting two at a time or Jon fighting two at a time at the BotB vs Ra's/Barristan's feats. There's a big difference.
  • That's not what I take from that line and I've never taken anything from Jaime's own word pre-hand loss seriously - about himself I mean. I don't see a character saying "I'm great", or "I'm as good as X" a feat or accolade, and I don't think the logic from that is so clear, fighting like that doesn't mean he thinks he's literally as good anyway.
  • I did like that scene, that was when they actually felt like they were giving Jaime his due, I wish there were more lines like that, preferably from somebody like Barristan or the Hound, but then against that we straight from the horse's mouth we have Benioff saying he's Ned's equal. And in my opinion, Barristan's and Dayne's feats are the two feats where the writers really felt like they were setting these characters apart for the audience. Not one person has walked into a room with 14 men and killed 13 of them, and I don't feel convinced that anybody but Selmy and Dayne could, not without armour. Barristan's been set apart in a way I just don't think Jaime ever really has been on the show, I don't think young Jaime vs Old Barristan is as certain in the show as it is in the books.
  • Also, yeah, I forgot to say, I don't think it was Oberyn he was speaking, he was known to be a great warrior, but Jaime wouldn't have known enough about him. There's a moment where you can actually see Jaime realise how good he is in the OvG fight.
  • I think they age kinda normally (Jorah being a measuring stick of sorts), but Barristan is just one in a million kinda case.
  • It's not something you hear or see, it's just something that happens as part of routine. Even a few days' worth of training is better than none.
  • It wasn't stated, but it only makes sense. They needed a bargaining token to ransom Ned and the girls.
  • Well, as I said, there were multiple points in Barristan's scene where he engaged only ~2 at once. Here's the scene. For example, look at the beginning of the fight (5:33-5:37), only 2 Sons are actually attacking Barristan (and he kills them), the rest just run around to surround him. And in 5:44-5:51 there were 3 or 4 of them that literally came at him one at a time until he took a kick in the back. It wasn't a Dayne-like fight where he literally defends from 4 people at the same time. It wasn't a BotB scene either, mind you, it was something in between those two.
  • I also take Jaime's pre hand-loss statements with a grain of salt, but I don't think that he'd say something like that if he hadn't meant it. In the show, Jaime idolizes Barristan like he does Dayne in the books. I don't think he would have dared comparing anyone, not even himself to Barristan if he didn't truly believe the comparison was fair. Even if it was a stretch it wouldn't have been a big one, and that was PRIME Barristan he was talking about. Also, I think that in that scene Jaime wasn't being his usual cocky, boasting self. It felt like he was speaking from his heart, because he knew he was going to kill Alton. Also, when Alton tells Jaime about how amazing it was squiring for him, Jaime looks really sympathetic. Look here in 2:22. I think that this scene had more to it than Jaime's usual boasting. Also, I think that Jaime was set apart in the show actually, but more in statements than in feats. Dayne has his scene, Barristan has his final stand (and the "cut through the five of you like carving a cake" epic boss-line scene), and Jaime has a lot of other little tidbits throughout the show. Euron's statement is one of them. Another one that's easy to miss is here, when Tyrion names Jaime as his champion at the trial in the Vale. First of all, there's Tyrion's remark of "I wouldn't be too glad", which basically means "we all know Jaime is going to dice you up like sushi", and then the murmurs of fear in the crowd. There's also Robb admitting inferiority to Jaime (not that Robb is some A-class fighter but it was still there to convey the message of Jaime being a beast), and other little tidbits all over the place. About Ned, well I said it once or twice before but I think that Benioff's statement was made to be more "politically correct" than anything. I mean, you wouldn't expect him to say that this fight was actually pretty one-sided and that it wouldn't have lasted long, especially when the one who would have won is the "bad guy". What's more is that he said that "it's anyone's guess who would have won", not that they're equals. "Anyone's guess" is more vague than that. Imagine being a first-time viewer of the show, you're only 5 episodes into season 1 and you have no idea how good everyone really are. For all you know Meryn Trant is the greatest fighter in the Seven Kingdoms, of course you'd view Ned and Jaime as evenly matched with so little knowledge and the fight being interrupted so soon, especially when you consider Ned being the "main character" and Jaime being the ultimate bad-guy so you'd obviously have that small bias and expectation for Ned to be the winner. On top of all that, show Ned is actually much better than his book counterpart so this fight wouldn't have been half bad (but I'd still put my money on a very solid win for Jaime if the fight hadn't been interrupted). Benioff also said that Jaime was not even being serious for most of the fight so holding off a bloodlusted Ned while half-assing the fight is actually a very good showing for Jaime.
  • Yeah that's what I was thinking.
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#31 rogueshadow  Moderator

@the_red_viper:

  • I'm really not willing to give the Northmen any kind of advantage because they had 3 days training.
  • Disagree, I think that you're getting into the logistics of shooting the fight scene, there's a difference, you can see that all of those characters are actively engaged in the fight with Barristan, but due to his skill and maneuvering and fellow fighters getting in the way, they aren't literally all attacking at once, it would be impossible to shoot that, and really, impossible to accomplish in real life due to space, but they are all moving in and focussed on the fight. That to me counts as a 1 v 12. Same as something like Kiddo vs C88 or Ra's vs 8 LoA Ninja, she isn't literally fighting them all at once, but I think that the intent is clear.
  • All of the statements you're referring to, barring Euron's imo, don't put Jaime on the level you're shooting for. The only way show Jaime is up the tier with Dayne/Selmy is if you imagine that, on the show, older Ned was supposed to be in this tier too, and I don't see that at all, I don't think Benioff was lying, I think that's just how it is in the show, Ned's just that good, I do agree that Ned is clearly of a higher tier in the show, beating Hightower or any Kingsguard pre-Robert one on one is not something Ned could do in the books. But look at what Dayne did to Ned... and you look at Brienne's lines about praising a famous name, "maybe" he was as good as they said once, Brienne putting an absolute beating on a weakened Jaime where in the books he nearly wins but for his stamina/arrogance and it still takes an external variable to make him lose, and then she still ends up having to brawl with him. They throw shade on him a bunch of times. His performance in season 7 and the line from Euron gave me a little bit of hope that we might get to see him get his skills back right at the end of S8, maybe for an epic last stand.
  • When did Benioff say that? That changes things.

Honestly, I could see him having a hard time with Brienne, don't think he can get past Selmy though. Even if he isn't prime.

I'd actually forgotten I'd included Brienne. I think that'd be a solid fight as well.

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Using only TV show versions: I could see him losing to Selmy tbh. Can't see him beating Dayne. Heck even Brienne would be a good fight for him.

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#33 the_red_viper  Moderator

@rogueshadow: Sorry that this post looks like crap, I'm on mobile.

1. Well we don't really know how much training they had. Could be 3 days, could be a fortnight, could be more. The march from Last Hearth to Winterfell for example takes the better part of a month whereas the march from Castle Cerwyn is only half a day or so, I wouldn't imagine that the men who got there early like the Cerwyns would just sit idle and do nothing while waiting for the others. Also, don't forget that many of these people were veterans of some of the latest wars such as Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion. That's also not counting all the knights (or whatever parellel they have in the north, people like Jory or Hal Mollen) and highborn lords. That force was definitely more able than some angry former-nobles who lived their entire lives without even seeing war save for the fighting pits.

2. Well yes, I agree that it would have been impossible to shoot the scene otherwise, but it is still what it is. Still, in all likelihood, it happened the same way with Jaime so it doesn't matter much.

3. I'm not saying Benioff was lying, but he did kinda say what the audience wanted to hear in a vague-ish sort of phrasing that doesn't give away much.

4. Brienne, like many other characters, got a healthy buff in the show and is clearly superior to her book counterpart, whereas with Jaime it's the other way around so their little bout was very different from the book version of it. Ned in my opinion should be around Jon level, which makes him able to hold his ground for a little against someone like prime Jaime, maybe even make him sweat a tiny bit but still inevitably lose. I think that all these tidbits about Jaime do make him on the same level as Barristan (maybe not Dayne, I think that the gap between Dayne and Barristan in the show is bigger than it is in the books). I mean, think about it, Barristan didn't have anything but statements either until his last scene where he died, but nobody ever doubted him. I really think that Euron describing Jaime in the same fashion Jaime was describing Barristan (in his prime) really hit the nail on the head with this one. Even more so when you think about Jaime's clear bias when talking about Barristan, the literal idol of his youth, which could have made him exaggerate a bit (like Viserys when talking about Rhaegar), compared to Euron's very visible contempt toward Jaime. I mean, the man was openly mocking him in the very same scene where he gave him praise, so you know the compliment was real enough. Couple it with Jaime saying (or strongly implying) that he turned to be as good as Barristan was in his heyday, which couldn't be a big stretch even if it was one to begin with, and that's pretty much bingo for me.

5. Well, D&D said that Jaime fought Ned just because he wanted to test his mettle, as in, fought him for sport. Then they say that Jaime only started fighting for real when he realized Ned wasn't fooling around like him ("it becomes a fight to the death"). For the most part, Jaime was just fooling around, and by the time he gets serious the fight is interrupted and we didn't really get to see him going all out.

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Stops and Arthur Dayne. I don't think Old Selmy can beat Jaime.

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Why is old selmy so high? Stops at Dayne, though

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#36 rogueshadow  Moderator

@the_red_viper: I disagree, I think the vast majority of the men would have been no better than the Harpies but for armour and a sword, a man-at-arms is one man in eight, so of the ten he fought, maybe he fought one with real training. And the fact that they weren't trying to kill him is a big blow to the feat that I wasn't even factoring before. The chaos of war is just different than singlehandedly engaging so many men imo. We've also heard Oberyn described as a legendary warrior, and Brienne, and Jon is rumoured to be the best in the North. I don't think it's enough.

I don't think so, just because a lot of the stuff from the books also happened in the showverse. Jaime said Selmy's counter riposte to kill Toyne was the finest move he ever saw, and he killed Maelys, I believe Duskendale was mentioned too in the H&L. Both have one onscreen feat, and Dayne's feat is definitely better, but when you consider a 30 - 35 year age gap and that Barristan didn't even have his gear of choice, I definitely think it's safe to say prime Barristan would have been the number 2 in the series after Dayne. And then without Dawn you can imagine them being roughly equal, but if we did a tiering I'd put Dayne at the top based on onscreen showings. It just feels overall like Dayne and Barry are tiered more closely in line with their book than Jaime, cannot see prime Selmy struggling with Ned at all, Ned basically says this. I understand what you're saying about Euron's quotes, but then you have Brienne's line, the above quote from DB, Ned seeming to rival him. Unlike in the books, D&D just seemed like they liked to throw shade on the idea that Jaime was the single best swordsman of his generation.

Do you have a link to the quote? Because that would effectively end the debate on that point. If they've outright contradicted themselves in another instance, then, effectively, depending on how it's worded, there's nothing to do except ignore both statements and go off what's onscreen, and my default for a long time that Jaime wasn't taking Ned seriously enough, but that line from Benioff quenched that. Based on the BTS above, they chose to make Jaime look borderline even with Ned, whereas Dayne could fight Ned and three of his men-at-arms without breaking a sweat. Ned would have to be much, much, much better by GoT S1 to account for that.

I'm not saying I think Jaime definitely loses, but I don't see his victory as anywhere near as decided as his book version, who, with Widow's Wail, should take an solid victory on Old Selmy, I can see Jaime falling to Selmy. I'd really like him to do something in the last season. The fact that they showed him fighting decently well against some pretty vicious opponents and that they had that line from Euron gives me hope.

Maybe we should continue this in the PM, I've just realised that I'm throwing out text walls on my own thread.

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#37 the_red_viper  Moderator
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#38  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator
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@rogueshadow: @the_red_viper:

Exactly rogue. The harpies firstly were slaying unsullied 1v1 and they had daggers against a longsword in a gully where they had local knowledge against an unarmoured selmy. Still, selmy took down 15 harpies. Prime unarmoured Jaime wouldn't take down more than 7 before being killed.

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#40  Edited By Drax5343

I’d say with Season 8 feats Arya should go up a few spots.

Could lose to Brienne due to Valyrian steel. Might lose to Arya depending on the circumstances.

Definitely loses to Baristan and Arthur.

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#41  Edited By GodlyShinigami

Stops at Dayne

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#42  Edited By krisbishop  Moderator

Stops at Dayne. He's not losing to Old Selmy.

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He probably stops at Dayne

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He might make it past that version of Selmy

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Old Selmy lost to a bunch of nobodies in an alleyway. Jamie stops at 6.