Izuku Midoriya vs Wolverine

Izuku Midoriya

VS.

Wolverine

Stipulations:

• In-Character
• Standard gear and abilities
• Deku is composite/current MHA anime and manga
• Logan is 616 version
• Win by KO/Incapitation/Death
• No prep, random encounter
• Fight takes place in an abandoned amusement park

Callouts:

Deku can BFR

I just wanna say that is an awesome pic of Wolverine and also he wins from what I've heard before regarding MHA.

Wolverine.

Nothing short of 100% Detroit Smash is even coming close to knocking out James..which Deku isn't going to use in character. Wolverine oneshots via claw stab or pressure point strike..hell he could even beat him into unconsciousness via adamantium fists.

Like at all or in one shot?

I don't see Wolverine going full out with his claws against a kid like Deku but he should still win comfortably nonetheless.

Deku's 100% detroit smash is pretty much the only thing he has that can knock out Wolverine here but I'm pretty sure Wolverine can take him out before that.

@undeckedlion395: @chronicplane: WWH knocked out Wolverine in the World War Hulk vs the X-Men by hitting him repeatedly so his brain bounces on the edge of his adamantium skull these are hulks words not mine

Izuku ain’t doing multiple Detroit smashes before Wolverine cuts his hand off

Here’s the comic explain video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQfRpv4s3ho

@mbatz: Ok then,let me rephrase what I said.

Izuku's only way to knock out Wolverine is to do a couple hundred detroit smashes againsts his head but I'm pretty sure his arm is gonna break off before that, or Wolverine just takes him out.

wolverine slaughters

@jashro44: At all

@juiceboks: I don't see why midoriya can't knock him out at all without 100%. I don't think he wins but I don't see wolverine just standing there and shrugging everything off.

@jashro44: First of all, Deku will literally break his hand punching an Adamantium skull that hard and the damage to Wolverine would be sizeable but he'd basically just instantly heal it. He's not so durable as to shrug off hits, they'll just amount to nothing as he can regenerate. Deku needs multiple very hard hits to take him out or he'll just get diced by his claws. I can't see him ever killing James but he may get a knock out if he's lucky. In all honesty he's probably gonna get killed when he tries to land a successive punch.

@atomickitten15:

First of all, Deku will literally break his hand punching an Adamantium skull that hard and the damage to Wolverine would be sizeable but he'd basically just instantly heal it.

Yea I never said Deku wouldn't break his hand punching wolverine at 100%. I was responding to a comment that midoriya would need 100% to eventually knock out wolverine.

He's not so durable as to shrug off hits, they'll just amount to nothing as he can regenerate.

I know how wolverine's healing factor works.

Deku needs multiple very hard hits to take him out or he'll just get diced by his claws.

Never said otherwise. Nor did I make a case for Deku. I said wolverine wins in my first post in this thread.

I can't see him ever killing James but he may get a knock out if he's lucky.

That's basically what I am saying. Deku could eventually knock wolverine out if he were to land enough hits.

In all honesty he's probably gonna get killed when he tries to land a successive punch.

I don't think wolverine would do that in character.

@jashro44: If Deku had unlimited stamina and the durability to withstand repeatedly slamming his fists and feet onto Adamantium then sure I suppose he could wear James down eventually. But I don't think that's very realistic in this battle setting

Deku is unlikely to hurt his feet kicking wolverine because he is hitting him with his iron soles.

Gallery

That and while there are examples of people breaking there bones punching wolverine it doesn't happen all the time.

In-character Deku loses this one. He usually fights using only 5% of his power and doubt that's enough to knock Wolverine out.

@jashro44: Depending on how he kicks he could still break the bones in his legs.

Well I believe it's happened often enough to where it can be counted in a battle setting and makes perfect sense, much like his striking power being a culmination of his superhuman strength and the metal covering the bones in his hands. Deku hits at a level significantly above what his durability is for his higher percentage strikes, and it's much more likely he'd inflict significant harm to himself before he makes any noticeable headway in knocking James out even if he stands idle.

@juiceboks:

Depending on how he kicks he could still break the bones in his legs.

Not really because his foot is encased in iron. Deku also has never had an issue throwing a proper kick.

Well I believe it's happened often enough to where it can be counted in a battle setting and makes perfect sense, much like his striking power being a culmination of his superhuman strength and the metal covering the bones in his hands.

The majority of the time it really doesn't happen.

Deku hits at a level significantly above what his durability is for his higher percentage strikes, and it's much more likely he'd inflict significant harm to himself before he makes any noticeable headway in knocking James out even if he stands idle.

I don't know where your getting the idea that Deku's durability is significantly lower than his striking power. The whole point of Deku using lower percentages is his body can sustain from his own strikes. And I don't see why it would be hard for Deku at his current level to start making noticeable headway on wolverine if he just stood idle.

Deku doesn't have the stamina.

@jashro44:

Not really because his foot is encased in iron. Deku also has never had an issue throwing a proper kick

Fair enough I guess, though unless I'm missing something from the current manga Deku hasn't been able to use anywhere close to his full power with kicks. And the feats he does have aren't good enough to put him down.

The majority of the time it really doesn't happen

Well that depends on who he's fighting and how much striking force they're using. Even still it's happened plenty of times with characters like Kaine, Sabretooth, She-Hulk, Punchout, Thunderbird and even more recently with fodder in Wolverine and the X-Men to call it fairly consistent. If we accept that Wolverine can hit harder with adamantium than without then I don't see why this shouldn't also be considered.

I don't know where your getting the idea that Deku's durability is significantly lower than his striking power

Aside from the fact that he has no durability feats to suggest otherwise, he's had his arm broken by Muscular with one punch while he was messing around for one. There's also the fact that his body is still unable to withstand the power of his 100% punches without causing internal damage. Again this may have changed in more recent chapters but I highly doubt it.

The whole point of Deku using lower percentages is his body can sustain from his own strikes

I'm not saying this applies to the lower percentages. Those I'm sure match his durability, but the 100% striking power is well above what his body can sustain.

And I don't see why it would be hard for Deku at his current level to start making noticeable headway on wolverine if he just stood idle

What's he done currently?

I don’t read/watch any anime, but from what I’m reading here Wolverine should win comfortably.

@jashro44: I don't know where to place Wolverine at all. His high ends feats are considered legit, but he is pit against street level characters who deal blunt force.

@juiceboks:

Fair enough I guess, though unless I'm missing something from the current manga Deku hasn't been able to use anywhere close to his full power with kicks. And the feats he does have aren't good enough to put him down.

He can use up to 20%.

Well that depends on who he's fighting and how much striking force they're using. Even still it's happened plenty of times with characters like Kaine, Sabretooth, She-Hulk, Punchout, Thunderbird and even more recently with fodder in Wolverine and the X-Men to call it fairly consistent.

Well Deku isn't going to be using high percentages with his punches, only his kicks. Also I am not saying it never happens but I can cite more instances where it doesn't happen.

If we accept that Wolverine can hit harder with adamantium than without then I don't see why this shouldn't also be considered.

It can be considered but I don't see it happening for a majority.

Aside from the fact that he has no durability feats to suggest otherwise, he's had his arm broken by Muscular with one punch while he was messing around for one.

Deku wasn't messing around, regardless how does this prove his durability is lower than his striking power? His 5% punch did nothing to muscular.

There's also the fact that his body is still unable to withstand the power of his 100% punches without causing internal damage. Again this may have changed in more recent chapters but I highly doubt it.

Yea I acknowledged this myself. But his body can handle 8% without any issue.

I'm not saying this applies to the lower percentages. Those I'm sure match his durability, but the 100% striking power is well above what his body can sustain.

OK.

What's he done currently?

Deku hasn't been very active for a few chapters honestly. We learned more about one for all, but that was kind of it. Not sure if your familiar with what he's done with 20%.

I think Wolverine's power set is based on an actual wolverine. In nature a wolverine can take down prey much larger than it because of its tenacity, wolverine works kind of the same way. He can take hits from bigger and stronger enemies but wolverine isn't invulnerable. He still takes damage from weaker enemies so it is possible for some weaker enemies to knock him.

Overall when it comes to wolverine taxing his healing factor isn't easy. The best showing of someone being straight up unable to knock wolverine out would be spider-man during there grave yard fight. All though some people would argue that knowing where to hit wolverine would be more effective on him.

I don't think Deku wins here. Wolverine is fast, skilled and experienced, and he is tough enough to take hits from Deku. I'm mostly arguing that if wolverine just stood there and let Deku hit him, than 20% Deku could KO him eventually.

Deku can't knock him out and if he feels the need to use 100% then he'll only hurt himself and at best daze Logan ( But his durability is inconsistent) Logan won't go all out on Deku either. I'll say wolverine cause of stamina and regen hut I can see deku wining a smaller majority of Logan doesn't prepare him self for the punch Deku's packing

I mean wasn't Mister X about to beat Logan into unconsciousness, at least, until he bypassed his mind reading? And people like Captain America, Spider-Man and Sabretooth can all render him unconscious, he just has to heal to be able to continue the fight, which is something he can only do for so long. Never really got why people acted like anything more than peak human striking, or something in that ballpark, is needed to knock out Wolverine. You just need a lot of stamina to keep knocking him down.

man Wolverine lowballing is at an all time high isn't it...

anyways the 1 singular bullet timing feat Deku has is not impressive and its made even worse that he can't track actual humans moving less than mach 1 like Gentle

Gallery

so Wolverine abuses his speed advantage, his massive skill advantage, his insane durability advantage, and ability to one shot for an absolutely easy 9/10 win

lol adorable

Can you show me any instances of people actually being outright incapable of KO'ing Wolverine despite a significant time investment, using peak human striking or above? Something like this, perhaps?

Gallery

My issue is that I see everyone has this attitude toward Wolverine that implies he would be capable of the above feat, but I just haven't seen it. How often is Wolverine placed against a character much stronger and faster and people say that he can win on staying power alone? I haven't seen it but I have seen him about to get beaten by Mister X and Sabretooth beating him up aplenty, so I go by that until I see contradicting evidence. Who knows though, maybe you can show me something.

@warlockmage said:

man Wolverine lowballing is at an all time high isn't it...

anyways the 1 singular bullet timing feat Deku has is not impressive and its made even worse that he can't track actual humans moving less than mach 1 like Gentle

Gallery

so Wolverine abuses his speed advantage, his massive skill advantage, his insane durability advantage, and ability to one shot for an absolutely easy 9/10 win

Gentle was using his powers to bounce around all over the place. I don't see why that isn't just a feat for him.

To be fair spider-man has failed to knock him out once before after saying he hit wolverine with everything he had (or enough force to slam cars) and cap only knocked wolverine out in enemy of the state after wolverine had already been through a gauntlet.

@alphaq: you realize Sabretooth is not peak human in striking... neither is Mister X (the guy who fodderized Taskmaster)... but sure playing into your grand delusion that peak human strength (which is sub 1 ton) can KO logan can you actually show me an instance of Logan straight up getting knocked out by sub 1 ton punches... btw just so you know you'll need at least 5-10 as i can offset you by a lot

also no Logan never just lets anyone punch him... why in his right mind would he ever just allow someone to beat him what could possibly make you think that's in character.

i mean classic thunderbird was lucky his hand wasn't broken when punching Wolverine but sure guys like Bruce and Jason can consistently hurt Wolverine

and Wolverine seemed just fine letting Venom impale and throw him... in fact he seemed to no sell it (he might have appeared KO'd but he wasn't as he heard Venom bragging) btw he went on to win this fight

this was Venom Annual 1 in case you wanna fact check

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but im sure both Thunderbird and Venom are only peak human... can't even lift 1 ton what weaklings

and i love that you brought up Sabretooth

1

cuz in Uncanny 222 Sabretooth broke his hand punching Wolverine, but then again Sabretooth is sub 1 tonne punching.

you know what i take it all back you've convinced me that peak humans can obviously and consistently KO Logan and not break their hands with a direct strike to his skeleton... solid debating on your part buddy

The Spider-Man feat is probably the one that leaves the greatest impression on me but I think that logically Wolverine was hurt somewhat and then had to heal from the damage Spider-Man was inflicting upon him. I don't think he was just using sheer durability to Luke Cage the attacks, he was healing fast enough that the damage wasn't accumulating. What is really of interest is how long Wolverine could maintain taking blows from Spider-Man, in that instance I don't think he sat there tanking the hits for all that long. And then we have to also consider contradicting showings, like SpOck knocking Wolverine out easily, he had to heal the damage to regain consciousness.

I know that he had been through a lot before Cap knocked him out, the example was to illustrate the Captain America can actually inflict bodily harm on Logan, he can't actually tank or no-sell it in the conventional sense. The damage wouldn't stick usually, but what I find relevant is that Logan's durability sans a healing factor isn't outside Steve's weight class.

See, what really plays on my mind with Wolverine is how he actually responds to damage. If Captain America shield bashes him, I don't think he just weathers the damage with no injury like Colossus or The Thing would. He receives harm but he heals, so in effect he just keeps fighting at full capacity. The same thing happens when the Hulk slaps him, he receives a lot of damage to his body (which stays together because of his adamantium) but he can heal as well. The problem with keeping him down isn't the attack power really, it's how much total damage you can force his healing factor to have to compensate from. At least that's how I think about it, I could be wrong though.

@jashro44: except Gentle was not particularly fast and his movements were linear... his travel speed was nothing impressive and Deku couldn't track him... it was blatantly obvious that Gentle was not moving faster than a bullet.

Logan wins.

How were his movements linear? He literally bounced around like a ping pong ball in the scan you posted.

@warlockmage:

neither is Mister X (the guy who fodderized Taskmaster)

Mister X has peak human strength. Beating taskmaster effortlessly doesn't change that.

also no Logan never just lets anyone punch him... why in his right mind would he ever just allow someone to beat him what could possibly make you think that's in character.

Wolverine has talked about letting people hit him a few times because he can take a beating. Like during savage wolverine 22:

• Scan 1
• Scan 2
• Scan 3

Or against silver samurai when he let him hit him so he could disarm:

• Scan 1
• Scan 2

Or the time Wolverine let sabretooth hit him in order to go berserk:

• Scan 1
• Scan 2

This isn't an uncommon interpretation. There have been instances where wolverine leaves himself open to attack, and while the reasoning for wolverine tanking damage varies it does happen.

Who cares if Gentle wasn't faster than a bullet. You don't need to be bullet speed to blitz someone. Regardless he was bouncing from wall to wall with his elasticity. I also don't know where your getting the idea his travel speed was unimpressive either. He was clearly moving faster than the eye:

Gentle was also able to fling himself out of the city using his powers.

• Scan 1
• Scan 2

Gentle was pretty much bouncing all over the place and moving around into Midoriya's blind spot. That is why Midoriya lost track of him.

What I said was peak human striking or thereabouts, I place Sabretooth in the thereabouts. Lets not quibble over what constitutes peak human though, considering it changes from verse to verse and author to author. Basically what I mean is non-enhanced humans and people who they can fight without being at an overwhelming physical advantage, obviously that's not a crisp definition but I don't think it is important in any case. Arguing over whether or not Mister X is peak human or not isn't going to matter, the real conversation lies in how Wolverine's powers work.

Jashro has already pointed out how Mister X is in fact peak human, he isn't enhanced so I see no reason to classify him any differently. He might have better feats than other Marvel peak humans, I wouldn't know, but of course some fighters are a little more peak than others.

It's not necessarily a mathematical question, as you seem to suggest. We can presumably agree on two premises; that Wolverine can experience bodily harm from peak human strength and even below and that Wolverine's healing factor has a limited ability to heal damage and can be overtaxed in a battle scenario by repeated and consistent damage. If you agree with these two premises my claim is necessarily accepted.

I never said that I believed it was in character for him to allow people to hit him continually, you might not be familiar with the feat/characters I provided to you, so maybe you misunderstood my point but The Brit was incapable of fighting back because he doesn't actually have any superpowers other than invulnerability. You could just find an instance where Wolverine had no choice but to weather continual attacks. Jashro has already provided example, regardless.

And one thing I will point out is that it is an illegitimate response to say that because Wolverine never would elect to do something that asking for proof that he can do something no longer becomes necessary. Either he has feats like that or he doesn't - you can't just say that he would never allow himself to be in that situation when defending the concept that he could replicate something like that.

i mean classic thunderbird was lucky his hand wasn't broken when punching Wolverine but sure guys like Bruce and Jason can consistently hurt Wolverine

When you hit something it also exerts a force upon you proportional to how hard you hit it in the first place. If Bruce or Jason hit Wolverine then Logan's skeleton would exert less force upon their fists than it did in this case upon Thunderbird's. The question as to whether or not they would be similarly harmed is concerned with the relationship between their striking force and their durability. This shows that Thunderbird's striking force is high enough, relative to his durability, that he can hurt himself on Logan's skull. Perhaps another peak human would have high enough durability (relative to striking force) to be unharmed, this would be on a case-by-case basis. Think of how boxers have to condition their knuckles quite aside from increasing their physical strength, you might've even seen in real life very muscular people breaking their own hands in one punch in a bar fight, as I have. It's the same principle.

Also, I feel that this is a bit of a red herring. My post was addressing the nature of Wolverine's ability to receive peak human level blows, not about his opponent's durability. I mean, Wolverine was clearly hurt in the instance, anyway.

The problem with your interpretation is that you're assuming that he wasn't already healing before he heard Venom make his boast. All we can say for sure is that he was, for at least a small moment, rendered limp and unmoving by Venom's blow. To say he necessarily stayed conscious is just something you can't say with any degree of certainty. And kind of pointless too, to be honest, because being harmed and rendered unconscious doesn't have a one-to-one relationship. A character be rendered unconscious without being hurt, depending on the circumstances or suffer even fatal blunt force traume without being rendered unconscious.

Quite the strawman that you have set up, obviously my original point was about Wolverine's healing factor generally. His adamantium durability hurting his opponent depends on the striking to durability ratio of the opponent and can be bypassed by targeting different parts of his body, it applies in only some cases whereas if you read my post you'll see it deals with what Viners percieve as necessary prerequisite to KO'ing Wolverine (i.e. applying in all cases where the matter is a basic KO resulting in blunt force damage).

Anyway, whether or not Sabretooth hurt his hand is irrelevant. The question is if Wolverine was hurt, which we can't really say one way or the other. You might make the case that Sabretooth's physical strength is actually not enough to hurt Wolverine, that would come as a surprise to me, but be my guest.

@jashro44:

Mister X has peak human strength. Beating taskmaster effortlessly doesn't change that.

it actually does because Taskmaster has superhuman durability... by allot. like tanking hits from Spider-Man Morals off Captain America durability...

https://imgur.com/a/Z4h2S and fighting and tanking your fodder Asgardians (which are superhuman) Mister X is superhuman Jash... always has been

unless you want to argue that without scaling he's featless and then why even bring him up?

Wolverine has talked about letting people hit him a few times because he can take a beating. Like during savage wolverine 22:

• Scan 1
• Scan 2
• Scan 3

Or against silver samurai when he let him hit him so he could disarm:

• Scan 1
• Scan 2

Or the time Wolverine let sabretooth hit him in order to go berserk:

• Scan 1

• Scan 2

none of these instances were similar to what AlphaQ posted or was asking for, Wolverine has allowed himself to be attacked to set up a counter attack thats pretty obvious but not even close to what Alpah was asking for... come on Jash are we really gonna get into this again? did you even read to see what he was asking for or did you just look at my comment and go "ooh im gonna get him this time?"

This isn't an uncommon interpretation. There have been instances where wolverine leaves himself open to attack, and while the reasoning for wolverine tanking damage varies it does happen.

and yet in every instance you showed it was to set up a counter attack... talk about varied

Who cares if Gentle wasn't faster than a bullet. You don't need to be bullet speed to blitz someone. Regardless he was bouncing from wall to wall with his elasticity. I also don't know where your getting the idea his travel speed was unimpressive either. He was clearly moving faster than the eye:

no you don't but if Deku can track bullets in combat indicating he can bullet time routinely, and it wasn't a bit of luck then why was he having trouble following Gentle, why does he constantly have trouble with Katski who is not exactly that fast in combat speed either (his only good speed feats scaling off Deku, but even Kirishima, who is not fast at all, has been able to pressure him)

@alphaq

What I said was peak human striking or thereabouts, I place Sabretooth in the thereabouts. Lets not quibble over what constitutes peak human though, considering it changes from verse to verse and author to author. Basically what I mean is non-enhanced humans and people who they can fight without being at an overwhelming physical advantage, obviously that's not a crisp definition but I don't think it is important in any case. Arguing over whether or not Mister X is peak human or not isn't going to matter, the real conversation lies in how Wolverine's powers work.

Sabretooth is packing 5-10 tonne strength... you gotta pretty hilarious grasp on thereabouts so do you wanna rope Spider-Man into peak human strengths or is that where you draw the line? how about Iron Fist or Black Panther are they peak human too, is Cable with his T-O arm peak human? i wanna know your classifications of peak human now?

Jashro has already pointed out how Mister X is in fact peak human, he isn't enhanced so I see no reason to classify him any differently. He might have better feats than other Marvel peak humans, I wouldn't know, but of course some fighters are a little more peak than others.

yes and i've already touched on that... Mister X is not peak human by any standards, hes as casual a bullet timer as it gets, hes got superhuman durability and his limited striking feats against Taskmaster and Wolverine are most certainly not peak human, unless you want to argue he's featless without scaling and then what's the point of even mentioning him

I never said that I believed it was in character for him to allow people to hit him continually, you might not be familiar with the feat/characters I provided to you, so maybe you misunderstood my point but The Brit was incapable of fighting back because he doesn't actually have any superpowers other than invulnerability. You could just find an instance where Wolverine had no choice but to weather continual attacks. Jashro has already provided example, regardless.

no he hasn't you asked for feats where Wolverine just stood there and let an opponent beat on him without some form of retaliation, i already touched on the differences between the scans you provided and the scans Jash provided all of which i was well aware of... none of which are what you were asking for. if you were willing to accept those substitution you should have said as much...

And one thing I will point out is that it is an illegitimate response to say that because Wolverine never would elect to do something that asking for proof that he can do something no longer becomes necessary. Either he has feats like that or he doesn't - you can't just say that he would never allow himself to be in that situation when defending the concept that he could replicate something like that.

i didn't i just said the exact situation you were asking for does not exist... someone like Deadpool probably could punch Wolverine all day and not do anything to Logan at all... but why would Wolverine let him. The EXACT situation you were asking for does not exist... if you were willing to accept alternative or substitutes you should have said as much.

When you hit something it also exerts a force upon you proportional to how hard you hit it in the first place. If Bruce or Jason hit Wolverine then Logan's skeleton would exert less force upon their fists than it did in this case upon Thunderbird's. The question as to whether or not they would be similarly harmed is concerned with the relationship between their striking force and their durability. This shows that Thunderbird's striking force is high enough, relative to his durability, that he can hurt himself on Logan's skull. Perhaps another peak human would have high enough durability (relative to striking force) to be unharmed, this would be on a case-by-case basis. Think of how boxers have to condition their knuckles quite aside from increasing their physical strength, you might've even seen in real life very muscular people breaking their own hands in one punch in a bar fight, as I have. It's the same principle.

attempting to use real life physics in a comic book world that regularly defies those same laws of physics... i love this game, lesser men/humans constantly hurt themselves punching Logan's skull i just didn't think i'd need to post everytime a fodder punches Logan only to hurt his hand? which has happened several times so that argument goes out the window

Also, I feel that this is a bit of a red herring. My post was addressing the nature of Wolverine's ability to receive peak human level blows, not about his opponent's durability. I mean, Wolverine was clearly hurt in the instance, anyway.

i get the feeling you are now arguing from a point of ignorance... which is fine but you should at least admit as much. Wolverine gets in random bar fights all the time, so often you don't actually bother saving them and they hurt themselves punching him all the time. you don't actually bother saving them because you never think (hey this guy can constantly and easily tank blows from Class 10+ opponents and not even be KO'd or show major signs of damage surely no one would be ignorant enough to say someone who is not even 1 tonne can KO him) but if you'd like just start reading Wolverine volume 3 you should come across at least 4 different instances of Wolverine no selling punches from random thugs.

The problem with your interpretation is that you're assuming that he wasn't already healing before he heard Venom make his boast. All we can say for sure is that he was, for at least a small moment, rendered limp and unmoving by Venom's blow. To say he necessarily stayed conscious is just something you can't say with any degree of certainty. And kind of pointless too, to be honest, because being harmed and rendered unconscious doesn't have a one-to-one relationship. A character be rendered unconscious without being hurt, depending on the circumstances or suffer even fatal blunt force traume without being rendered unconscious

i can say it with a certainty you know how i know he stayed conscious he literally repeated right back what Venom was saying when he was "limp" and then proceeded to win after receiving more damage than an ACTUAL peak human could ever hope to deliver... not your the 5-10 tonne peak human definition.

Quite the strawman that you have set up, obviously my original point was about Wolverine's healing factor generally. His adamantium durability hurting his opponent depends on the striking to durability ratio of the opponent and can be bypassed by targeting different parts of his body, it applies in only some cases whereas if you read my post you'll see it deals with what Viners percieve as necessary prerequisite to KO'ing Wolverine (i.e. applying in all cases where the matter is a basic KO resulting in blunt force damage).

not really your entire argument hinges on "well you can't 100% prove Logan was not hurt so he can obviously be hurt" but the inverse is true "you can't exactly prove Logan was hurt either"

Anyway, whether or not Sabretooth hurt his hand is irrelevant. The question is if Wolverine was hurt, which we can't really say one way or the other. You might make the case that Sabretooth's physical strength is actually not enough to hurt Wolverine, that would come as a surprise to me, but be my guest.

he wasn't... you can clearly tell in that instance he wasn't hurt, the no signs of damage, and the immediate retaliation are usually good indicators. Btw im not saying Sabretooth can't hurt Logan with his 10 tonne strength im saying in that instance he did not, i shouldn't have to clarify that but i have a feeling if i don't both you and Jash will get your knickers in a twist with

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kind of like here where he no sold a blow from Ms. Marvel empowered Rogue, the immediate response, no signs of damage all indicators he wasn't' hurt and you can't prove he was (sucks when its turned around on you yes?)

but like i said if you could please provide scans of peak humans actually hurting Wolverine (which i noticed you seem unwilling or unable to do) we can argue otherwise i'm not getting into this "you can't prove 100% he wasn't hurt so i can KO him with a toothpick if i do it often enough"

@warlockmage:

it actually does because Taskmaster has superhuman durability... by allot. like tanking hits from Spider-Man Morals off Captain America durability...

Taskmaster never took hits from a morals off spider-man. I'm assuming your talking about the Mcfarlene fight but Peter wasn't morals off or even bloodlusted. He was pissed because Mary Jane was kidnapped and he thought taskmaster was involved, but that doesn't mean he wasn't holding back. He needed taskmaster to talk in order to find out where she was (or so he thought).

Regardless even if taskmaster did take hits from a morals off spider-man that doesn't mean his durability is super human. PIS happens and that is the reason these sorts of feats need to be quantified. Not sure which fight with cap your talking about but cap beat taskmaster horribly in there last fight and left Taskmaster in horrible shape. And I also don't think taking hits from cap requires super human durability.

https://imgur.com/a/Z4h2S and fighting and tanking your fodder Asgardians (which are superhuman) Mister X is superhuman Jash... always has been

Asgardians in seige were being killed by everyone. They were especially vulnerable due to being on midgard according to Baldur.

unless you want to argue that without scaling he's featless and then why even bring him up?

I never brought him up....You said he was super human and I'm telling you he's not.

none of these instances were similar to what AlphaQ posted or was asking for, Wolverine has allowed himself to be attacked to set up a counter attack thats pretty obvious but not even close to what Alpah was asking for... come on Jash are we really gonna get into this again? did you even read to see what he was asking for or did you just look at my comment and go "ooh im gonna get him this time?"

My bad I missed his comment some how. I thought you were saying wolverine doesn't tank damage in character.

no you don't but if Deku can track bullets in combat indicating he can bullet time routinely, and it wasn't a bit of luck then why was he having trouble following Gentle,

Because Gentle was using his power to bounce all over the place and maneuver around in his blind spot. Gentle with use of his power was moving faster than Midoriya, where Midoriya couldn't keep up. Gentle basically did to Midoriya, what Midoriya did to stain despite the fact Midoriya wasn't faster than Stain.

why does he constantly have trouble with Katski who is not exactly that fast in combat speed either (his only good speed feats scaling off Deku, but even Kirishima, who is not fast at all, has been able to pressure him)

Bakugo being able to pressure Midoriya is a feat for him. Regardless Bakugo has some feats like being able to tunnel through Shoto's ice quickly, and being able to react to water that was fired at such speed that it sliced steel. As far as Kirashima pressuring him goes, that is partially due to the fact kirashima is durable and doesn't have to worry about defense. Yet bakugo still dodged all of his strikes with Kirashima only skimming him. And Kirshima does have feats like during his fight with Cementoss.

In the manga Kirashima was portrayed to be doing the same thing against Bakugo who dodged each of his punches:

Kirashima might not be especially fast, but apart of the reason he was pressuring Bakugo was because Bakugo was struggling to make offensive headway and needed to wear him down. But despite that Kirashima couldn't do more than just being able to scratch Bakugo. I don't see how this is a low showing for Bakugo, its actually kind of decent.

Not his best IMO but its not bad.

@alphaq: I missed your comment:

The Spider-Man feat is probably the one that leaves the greatest impression on me but I think that logically Wolverine was hurt somewhat and then had to heal from the damage Spider-Man was inflicting upon him. I don't think he was just using sheer durability to Luke Cage the attacks, he was healing fast enough that the damage wasn't accumulating. What is really of interest is how long Wolverine could maintain taking blows from Spider-Man, in that instance I don't think he sat there tanking the hits for all that long.

I agree that wolverine had to heal from the damage. However there have been some showings where its been shown wolverine kind of enjoys pain. Which is possible here because he was smiling.

And then we have to also consider contradicting showings, like SpOck knocking Wolverine out easily, he had to heal the damage to regain consciousness.

This is true.

I know that he had been through a lot before Cap knocked him out, the example was to illustrate the Captain America can actually inflict bodily harm on Logan, he can't actually tank or no-sell it in the conventional sense. The damage wouldn't stick usually, but what I find relevant is that Logan's durability sans a healing factor isn't outside Steve's weight class.

I agree the issue isn't hurting wolverine but keeping him down.

See, what really plays on my mind with Wolverine is how he actually responds to damage. If Captain America shield bashes him, I don't think he just weathers the damage with no injury like Colossus or The Thing would. He receives harm but he heals, so in effect he just keeps fighting at full capacity. The same thing happens when the Hulk slaps him, he receives a lot of damage to his body (which stays together because of his adamantium) but he can heal as well. The problem with keeping him down isn't the attack power really, it's how much total damage you can force his healing factor to have to compensate from. At least that's how I think about it, I could be wrong though.

I agree.

I feel like Deku is going to piece him up early but Logan should adapt and win in the end.

@warlockmage

Sabretooth is packing 5-10 tonne strength... you gotta pretty hilarious grasp on thereabouts so do you wanna rope Spider-Man into peak human strengths or is that where you draw the line? how about Iron Fist or Black Panther are they peak human too, is Cable with his T-O arm peak human? i wanna know your classifications of peak human now?

Not gonna bother addressing this point much, I've explained why, in my mind Sabretooth doesn't have this overwhelming physical advantage over Wolverine in strength, he's supposed to be this physical beast that makes Logan look like a runt but he's still relative to him. Wolverine, in turn, is more or less equivalent to a lot of peak humans like Cap or Daredevil in strength when he fights them. I've never seen Sabretooth as having five to ten tonne striking strength, which would imply things like sending multiple cars or especially large vehicles flying.

Morals on Spider-Man before the current era was still getting challenged by Kingpin, who is a peak human, albeit one of an extremely high weight class.

Yeah, I more of less have Black Panther and Iron Fist in the peak human category when it comes to regular stats like strength and speed without factoring in gear or the Iron Fist as an attack. I know they're supposed to be enhanced in a lot of appearances but I don't really care, as I said I don't take this classification stuff that seriously. The boundary between peak human and superhuman is basically irrelevant in my mind.

yes and i've already touched on that... Mister X is not peak human by any standards, hes as casual a bullet timer as it gets, hes got superhuman durability and his limited striking feats against Taskmaster and Wolverine are most certainly not peak human, unless you want to argue he's featless without scaling and then what's the point of even mentioning him

I've actually never seen a clear cut bullet timing feat from Mister X, he has that Black Widow feat, but he could've just been reading her mind to predict the path of her bullets, which I think was implied in how he was staring at her without having to track the bullets, and we later see him attempt the same against Cho. Doesn't have any amount of certainty behind it and casual bullet timing on that level isn't above peak humans in fiction anyway, which I think you should probably define if you're going to pursue this argument.

On the superhuman durability, meh, I don't know how strong Asgardians are in that comic, which has context explained by Jash, and peak humans survive blows they have no right all the time.

It's circular logic to use Wolverine as an example. Taskmaster doesn't need an enhanced individual to knock him out and X knocked him out when he amplified his striking power using a large drop. He also has anti-feats like Black Widow stopping his blows dead and Deadpool matching him with sword clashes and that's just from the quickest of glances at his feats. Put it like this, Wolverine can be beaten into unconsciousness by blows that Black Widow and Deadpool can block just fine. Doesn't sound any better.

no he hasn't you asked for feats where Wolverine just stood there and let an opponent beat on him without some form of retaliation, i already touched on the differences between the scans you provided and the scans Jash provided all of which i was well aware of... none of which are what you were asking for. if you were willing to accept those substitution you should have said as much...

I meant Jashro provided examples of Wolverine letting his opponents hit him, as in it shows that Wolverine is happy to let himself receive damage to secure the win, meaning that The Brit's strategy wouldn't be something he'd be fundamentally unwilling to do if he had to. I don't actually think they come close to the actual feat I provided.

i didn't i just said the exact situation you were asking for does not exist... someone like Deadpool probably could punch Wolverine all day and not do anything to Logan at all... but why would Wolverine let him. The EXACT situation you were asking for does not exist... if you were willing to accept alternative or substitutes you should have said as much.

What you said was that Wolverine doesn't let people hit him, which is a different thing, and the reason why Jashro responded the way he did.

Why do you say that Wolverine has never tanked sustained peak human blows for as long as The Brit did that other guy's blows and then go on to say that Deadpool couldn't do anything? Honest question. Do you just think DP can't hurt him in the first place, Luke Cage style, or do you think his healing factor comes into play?

I think there was a miscommunication on the substitution stuff, which I addressed.

attempting to use real life physics in a comic book world that regularly defies those same laws of physics... i love this game, lesser men/humans constantly hurt themselves punching Logan's skull i just didn't think i'd need to post everytime a fodder punches Logan only to hurt his hand? which has happened several times so that argument goes out the window

You're not going to be able to sustain an argument like that in the long run. What happens when Wolverine goes against someone like the Brit who is incredibly durable but has next to normal striking power? And what will happen when he goes against someone with really good striking but poor durability (like Deku, actually). You can't just handwave the issue away and treat them the same because, of course, strength and durability stats play a part in how attackers react to striking the adamantium and it should be obvious that the harder you hit something the harder the responding force it.

And lesser characters have also hit him just fine or, at least, punched him in ways that it doesn't harm them. Again, kind of a pointless argument that I'm not really interested in.

i get the feeling you are now arguing from a point of ignorance... which is fine but you should at least admit as much.

Pretty sure I've given you a list of the Wolverine comics I've read in the past, I've told you a rough outline in the Edward Cullen and Wolverine debate we had, you can't really complain that I'm being dishonest with you. I've read Old Man Logan, every run that involved Quentin Quire, random events and group crossovers and various CaVs and respect threads and stuff that pops up.

Also, you're using an argument from ignorance in an incorrect context, unless I'm misreading you. Until a character shows the ability to do something it is assumed in the Battle Forum context that they can't do it. Aside from that I have made a positive argument, referenced instances in comics and outright said that I could be wrong and an open to being convinced by evidence. An argument from ignorance would be saying that because I haven't seen an instance of Wolverine doing what I asked, he can't do it. Another example would be saying in a positive sense that he can't do it because the feat doesn't exist, other than just dismissing the possibility as is par for the course on the BFs. You might just be misusing the term in an attempt to call me ignorant though, which would just be an ad hominem

Wolverine gets in random bar fights all the time, so often you don't actually bother saving them and they hurt themselves punching him all the time. you don't actually bother saving them because you never think (hey this guy can constantly and easily tank blows from Class 10+ opponents and not even be KO'd or show major signs of damage surely no one would be ignorant enough to say someone who is not even 1 tonne can KO him) but if you'd like just start reading Wolverine volume 3 you should come across at least 4 different instances of Wolverine no selling punches from random thugs.

Another strawman. I said peak human striking, not bar thug striking. And another strawman, I never said peak human is sub one tonne striking. Please try and address comments I have actually made, anyone can set a field of strawmen afire.

Again you're just deflecting, the point was never about the opponent hurting themselves on Logan's bones. That issue can be bypassed by targeting area not protected by his adamantium and is concerned with the striking to durability ratio of the attacker, determined on a case-by-case basis. The whole point of this conversation was about Wolverine's ability to take hits of roughly peak human striking power.

i can say it with a certainty you know how i know he stayed conscious he literally repeated right back what Venom was saying when he was "limp" and then proceeded to win after receiving more damage than an ACTUAL peak human could ever hope to deliver... not your the 5-10 tonne peak human definition.

Right, okay, y'know how Venom struck Wolverine and sent him through the wall? Wolverine could've healed in the time between that and Venom mentioning Spider-Man (point of correction, there were parts prior to the mention of Spider-Man that Wolverine didn't reference), to the degree that he regained consciousness but not rigidity. So no, you're argument is just plain illogical. And, as I've said, consciousness and blunt force trauma don't have a one-to-one relationship anyway, the former is not a necessary prerequisite to show significant amounts of the later.

Another strawman at the end there.

not really your entire argument hinges on "well you can't 100% prove Logan was not hurt so he can obviously be hurt" but the inverse is true "you can't exactly prove Logan was hurt either"

You're literally telling me things that I have just told you. We can't say one way or the other so the feat isn't relevant to the conversation, my argument and skepticism isn't reliant on anything other than that.

he wasn't... you can clearly tell in that instance he wasn't hurt, the no signs of damage, and the immediate retaliation are usually good indicators. Btw im not saying Sabretooth can't hurt Logan with his 10 tonne strength im saying in that instance he did not, i shouldn't have to clarify that but i have a feeling if i don't both you and Jash will get your knickers in a twist with

Well they're not gonna show anything too graphic to show injury, not everything is so explicit and obvious. And immediate reaction is something he can do even when he is harmed, so that proves nothing.

1

kind of like here where he no sold a blow from Ms. Marvel empowered Rogue, the immediate response, no signs of damage all indicators he wasn't' hurt and you can't prove he was (sucks when its turned around on you yes?)

Wolverine specifically notes that his adamantium absorbed the energy in this instance, which is a shoddy defense that even fodder is skilled enough to bypass, as seen in Wolverine and the X-Men issue 9. Also of note is that visibly the impact was basically a breakfall on his spine that naturally would naturally deal less damage to his soft tissues. Regardless, that visibly isn't even wall busting, what issue is this? I want to see how hard Rogue is striking in this issue.

but like i said if you could please provide scans of peak humans actually hurting Wolverine (which i noticed you seem unwilling or unable to do) we can argue otherwise i'm not getting into this "you can't prove 100% he wasn't hurt so i can KO him with a toothpick if i do it often enough"

I'll go looking for feats properly when I have time if I don't convince you soon but the ones that come to mind are Captain America, Mister X and Daredevil. A good example is probably Wolverine and the X-Men issue nine, where a Logan without his healing factor but with his enhanced stats is beaten to a pulp by fodder, who specifically have to target parts of his body so that they don't break their bones. Now this was for the Death of Wolverine storyline, so I imagine he was somewhat sick, I don't know to what degree, perhaps you can tell me, but his durability to blunt force trauma shouldn't have been lowered, just his damage soak. You're flesh and muscles don't get less resistant to blunt force because of sickness, generally speaking, without atrophying. It's a nice instance that really takes Wolverine's durability in isolation from his healing factor and shows how his adamantium is an easily bypassed form of incomplete durability.

@alphaq:

Not gonna bother addressing this point much, I've explained why, in my mind Sabretooth doesn't have this overwhelming physical advantage over Wolverine in strength, he's supposed to be this physical beast that makes Logan look like a runt but he's still relative to him. Wolverine, in turn, is more or less equivalent to a lot of peak humans like Cap or Daredevil in strength when he fights them. I've never seen Sabretooth as having five to ten tonne striking strength, which would imply things like sending multiple cars or especially large vehicles flying.

so you're wrong... that's fine but Sabretooth has punked Rogue enhanced by Ms. Marvel's powers and seemed to effect Monet St. Croix, not to mention he was fighting evenly and matching strength with the 5 tonne Beast while severely weakened. So you're sticking to flat out lying while not even providing feats for your lies

in the Sabretooth special you should read it and then make the case that Sabretooth is peak human.

Morals on Spider-Man before the current era was still getting challenged by Kingpin, who is a peak human, albeit one of an extremely high weight class.

that was retconned to Spider-Man was holding back and at the time Kingpin was not peak human, he recently got done fodderizing Tombstone so his power levels are less than consistent.

Yeah, I more of less have Black Panther and Iron Fist in the peak human category when it comes to regular stats like strength and speed without factoring in gear or the Iron Fist as an attack. I know they're supposed to be enhanced in a lot of appearances but I don't really care, as I said I don't take this classification stuff that seriously. The boundary between peak human and superhuman is basically irrelevant in my mind.

that's quite possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read... guys like Black Panther Cable hit harder than guys like Bruce Wayne and Jason Todd, this is asinine.

I've actually never seen a clear cut bullet timing feat from Mister X, he has that Black Widow feat, but he could've just been reading her mind to predict the path of her bullets, which I think was implied in how he was staring at her without having to track the bullets, and we later see him attempt the same against Cho. Doesn't have any amount of certainty behind it and casual bullet timing on that level isn't above peak humans in fiction anyway, which I think you should probably define if you're going to pursue this argument.

imagine actually thinking Peak Humans can consistently bullet time, you know that requires reactions of at least mach1-2 ish area... so i think im just noticing a pattern your whole idea of Peak Human is completely bullshit...

It's circular logic to use Wolverine as an example. Taskmaster doesn't need an enhanced individual to knock him out and X knocked him out when he amplified his striking power using a large drop. He also has anti-feats like Black Widow stopping his blows dead and Deadpool matching him with sword clashes and that's just from the quickest of glances at his feats. Put it like this, Wolverine can be beaten into unconsciousness by blows that Black Widow and Deadpool can block just fine. Doesn't sound any better.

yes Deadpool who has only 1 win against Wolverine with tranqs, and has only ever done real damage to Logan with his swords and not with his fists... good call bringing him up

1 see when i say you argue from a position of ignorance i mean you only know these guys have given him good fights but you seem to now know how it was done?

I meant Jashro provided examples of Wolverine letting his opponents hit him, as in it shows that Wolverine is happy to let himself receive damage to secure the win, meaning that The Brit's strategy wouldn't be something he'd be fundamentally unwilling to do if he had to. I don't actually think they come close to the actual feat I provided.

so you do admit its not what you asked for? could have said that in so much less words.

You're not going to be able to sustain an argument like that in the long run. What happens when Wolverine goes against someone like the Brit who is incredibly durable but has next to normal striking power? And what will happen when he goes against someone with really good striking but poor durability (like Deku, actually). You can't just handwave the issue away and treat them the same because, of course, strength and durability stats play a part in how attackers react to striking the adamantium and it should be obvious that the harder you hit something the harder the responding force it.

actually i can... because comic books routinely defy the laws of physics

And lesser characters have also hit him just fine or, at least, punched him in ways that it doesn't harm them. Again, kind of a pointless argument that I'm not really interested in.

well then stop saying Peak Humans can KO him... and all this talk and absolutely no feats, i believe 100% you are talking out of your ass, i have asked you for feats several times now... you have provided 1? i provided many feats for you.

either admit defeat or get interested in it?

btw many normal to actual peak humans have hurt their hands punching Wolverine... it happens all the time

Pretty sure I've given you a list of the Wolverine comics I've read in the past, I've told you a rough outline in the Edward Cullen and Wolverine debate we had, you can't really complain that I'm being dishonest with you. I've read Old Man Logan, every run that involved Quentin Quire, random events and group crossovers and various CaVs and respect threads and stuff that pops up.

Old Man Logan is not 616 Wolverine and is therefore irrelevant, and your lack of Wolverine knowledge was as prevalent in the Edward Cullen debate as it is now.

and to be honest i got tired of your shit in that debate too

Also, you're using an argument from ignorance in an incorrect context, unless I'm misreading you. Until a character shows the ability to do something it is assumed in the Battle Forum context that they can't do it. Aside from that I have made a positive argument, referenced instances in comics and outright said that I could be wrong and an open to being convinced by evidence. An argument from ignorance would be saying that because I haven't seen an instance of Wolverine doing what I asked, he can't do it. Another example would be saying in a positive sense that he can't do it because the feat doesn't exist, other than just dismissing the possibility as is par for the course on the BFs. You might just be misusing the term in an attempt to call me ignorant though, which would just be an ad hominem

not gonna lie this could have been shortened to 10-20 words... i think i fell asleep in the middle of this tirade, you are ignorant though and it directly affects your argument, your argument reeks of ignorance. but you are still maintaining Logan can be hurt by peak human attacks despite the fact i've shown he regularly no sells stronger better attacks

Another strawman. I said peak human striking, not bar thug striking. And another strawman, I never said peak human is sub one tonne striking. Please try and address comments I have actually made, anyone can set a field of strawmen afire.

ok Peak Human is sub 1 tonne striking though, this is actually batshit insane. you honestly believe a Peak Human can strike with the force of 1 tonne? not a strawman you just don't understand basic power levels, which again is fine but lets not pretend its a strawman because you don't know any better.

Again you're just deflecting, the point was never about the opponent hurting themselves on Logan's bones. That issue can be bypassed by targeting area not protected by his adamantium and is concerned with the striking to durability ratio of the attacker, determined on a case-by-case basis. The whole point of this conversation was about Wolverine's ability to take hits of roughly peak human striking power.

and besides the 1 singular Mister X feat, whats your basis for this argument some feats would be nice? do you even have any? ive asked you to post them thrice now and this will be the 4th (and there will be a 5th just keep scrolling down)

Right, okay, y'know how Venom struck Wolverine and sent him through the wall? Wolverine could've healed in the time between that and Venom mentioning Spider-Man (point of correction, there were parts prior to the mention of Spider-Man that Wolverine didn't reference), to the degree that he regained consciousness but not rigidity. So no, you're argument is just plain illogical. And, as I've said, consciousness and blunt force trauma don't have a one-to-one relationship anyway, the former is not a necessary prerequisite to show significant amounts of the later.

right ok but you know how there's literally no evidence at all suggesting he was knocked out... that's literally the end of it.

You're literally telling me things that I have just told you. We can't say one way or the other so the feat isn't relevant to the conversation, my argument and skepticism isn't reliant on anything other than that.

actually im trying to understand your completely bat shit argument... and i do now, your idea of peak human is insane.

Well they're not gonna show anything too graphic to show injury, not everything is so explicit and obvious. And immediate reaction is something he can do even when he is harmed, so that proves nothing.

way to explain away with no proof whatsoever... and Wolverine has been shown to be graphic many times, he literally stabs people, they could have shown his costume torn if they felt like it. this is a weak argument, bordering on Pathetic

Wolverine specifically notes that his adamantium absorbed the energy in this instance, which is a shoddy defense that even fodder is skilled enough to bypass, as seen in Wolverine and the X-Men issue 9. Also of note is that visibly the impact was basically a breakfall on his spine that naturally would naturally deal less damage to his soft tissues. Regardless, that visibly isn't even wall busting, what issue is this? I want to see how hard Rogue is striking in this issue.

it literally said in the title of the image its 158. also Doomsday and Superman when fighting barely destroyed parts of a city... you gonna tell me the punches that killed Superman were sub city punches because they didn't do more damage to the surrounding area? another weak ass argument. I really shouldn't be surprised at this point.

Hulk and Thor have fought without destroying an entire city visibly, i guess Hulk and Thor are sub city level (this is not a strawman this me using your own backwards logic against you, please do try and understand the difference)

I'll go looking for feats properly when I have time if I don't convince you soon but the ones that come to mind are Captain America, Mister X and Daredevil. A good example is probably Wolverine and the X-Men issue nine, where a Logan without his healing factor but with his enhanced stats is beaten to a pulp by fodder, who specifically have to target parts of his body so that they don't break their bones. Now this was for the Death of Wolverine storyline, so I imagine he was somewhat sick, but his durability to blunt force trauma shouldn't have been lowered, just his damage soak. It's a nice instance that really takes Wolverine's durability in isolation from his healing factor and shows how his adamantium is an easily bypassed form of incomplete durability.

ok so Captain America isn't peak human never has been, never will be this is where your bullshit power classification has mislead you, and the only time Captain America does notable damage is through some pressure attack like in Wolverine Origins or with his shield, not with his bare fists.

and Daredevil's only decent fight against Wolverine was during Enemy of State when Logan was put through a gauntlet without rest and he had to mostly use other weapons against him, Daredevil actually did very little damage to Logan. And in Hunt for Wolverine, Daredevil was near fodderized by Albert (and could not do any damage to him), Albert is the weaker, slower, less durable AU version of Wolverine so... again consistency doesn't favor you

Mister X is your one and only possibility and its offset by dozens of others...

and are you really gonna use Death of Wolverine feats (where he was noticeably weaker in every sense of the word) in an attempt to argue this? wow i almost wish you had just stuck to not using any feats.

im not gonna lie this is boring to me, because you don't grasp the difference between Superhuman and Peak Human (Captain America is the line for Superhuman man, its pretty well recognized)

your definition of peak human is atrocious... 5-10 tonnes is not peak human, consistent and casual bullet timing is not peak human (even with telepathy its not peak human).

@warlockmage:You've lost your cool and resorted to a lot of ad hominem attacks, which I am not going to do.

so you're wrong... that's fine but Sabretooth has punked Rogue enhanced by Ms. Marvel's powers and

I assume that you are referring to this instance?

In the same issue that this happened Sabretooth and Wolverine have a vicious fight where they are physical peers, albeit with Victor being acknowledged as the physically stronger, although Wolverine overpowers Sabretooths tackle at one point, showing they are portrayed in this instance as fairly close.

This being the same Wolverine that wasn't able to hurt Rogue just a few issues prior, with him claiming that he would have to resort to pressure points (although, he was weakened earlier in the issue but he was able to punch her through a wall right after awakening from the induced coma and reflects he was growing in strength by the second, so he should have been at full power later in the fight), Nightcrawler reflecting that they had tried everything and been unable to even faze her and Storm ultimately going for the BFR, being unable to harm her with winds or lightning, which she explicitly claimed she used at full power. She was clearly jobbing. Never mind that Psylocke remained conscious and fighting after a punch from Sabretooth.

Seems to me that Rogue was just jobbing to play the damsal, not that it's actually evidence of five to ten tonne striking, which shouldn't faze her anyway. Rogue's feats put her above someone like Sabretooth, who Wolverine is relative to and can brawl with.

seemed to effect Monet St. Croix, not to mention he was fighting evenly and matching strength with the 5 tonne Beast while severely weakened. So you're sticking to flat out lying while not even providing feats for your lies

Don't know the issue that you're referring to with Monet and Beast, I'm curious, what is the issue number?

I know of two fights between Beast and Sabretooth, in one, Wolverine and the X-Men Sabretooth clearly dodged and cut him, which doesn't show anything about strength. In the other Sabretooth struck Beast hard enough to cause a hurt him a lot but he never actually had to overpower Beast's strength or anything. But I'll wait to see the instance that you're referring to.

that was retconned to Spider-Man was holding back and at the time Kingpin was not peak human, he recently got done fodderizing Tombstone so his power levels are less than consistent.

Yeah, that's what I said, morals on Spider-Man holds back.

Why wasn't Kingpin peak human back in the Classic era?

I would agree in general that he is not very consistent.

that's quite possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read... guys like Black Panther Cable hit harder than guys like Bruce Wayne and Jason Todd, this is asinine.

I'll just say I don't know Cable at all. Black Panther, I understand, is sometime enhanced and sometimes isn't.

Of course you can find peak humans who are lesser than some particular enhanced character in some stat, to say that the distinction between peak human and superhuman is a vague and ultimately irrelevant one isn't the same as saying that there are differences between characters in the two classifications. I could say Cassandra Cain has faster reactions that Black Panther or Iron Fist (you might disagree in those particular cases, but lets say, to highlight the principle, that that is true). Is Cassandra Cain superhuman now or is Iron Fist and Black Panther less than peak? It's ultimately an irrelevant question. Any standard for peak human you set, like one tonne, will inevitably be surpassed by them in time or have superhumans fail to do it. It's better to just go with how the characters relate to each other in the long run. In the long run I see Sabretooth as having a large physical edge over Wolverine but not so big that Logan can't brawl, overpower and grapple with him. And Wolverine doesn't hold much of a strength advantage against peak humans when he fights them.

imagine actually thinking Peak Humans can consistently bullet time, you know that requires reactions of at least mach1-2 ish area... so i think im just noticing a pattern your whole idea of Peak Human is completely bullshit...

Bullet timing is above peak humans now? Who decided that? Obviously consistency is a question for the peak human in question and their storylines but in general plenty of peaks can do it. There are peak humans out there like Cassandra Cain or Daredevil with plenty of bullet timing feats.

Kind of irrelevant though considering X didn't even bullet time and I'm pretty sure he has never bullet timed, never mind doing so consistently.

yes Deadpool who has only 1 win against Wolverine with tranqs, and has only ever done real damage to Logan with his swords and not with his fists... good call bringing him up

1 see when i say you argue from a position of ignorance i mean you only know these guys have given him good fights but you seem to now know how it was done?

That's a fallacy, saying Deadpool has never hurt Wolverine without swords isn't the same as saying that he can't. You'd have to show him striking Wolverine and failing.

So Wolverine blocks and disarms Deadpool, I'm not sure what you're trying to show.

so you do admit its not what you asked for? could have said that in so much less words.

Yeah, I never said that they were.

Context is important in a conversation with three people responding to each other and nobody forced you to read my comment, it makes no sense to complain to me that you read something when you knew how long it is at a glance and I can't compel you to do anything.

actually i can... because comic books routinely defy the laws of physics

I hope you're just messing around or I'm misreading you here, can you just answer these two questions so that we're 100% on the same page;

1. Do you believe that if someone punches Wolverine's adamantium the harder they punch the more energy that is returned to them, i.e. that when Thunderbird punches Logan he receives more energy (when he hurts his hand) than some fodder does when they hurt their hand?
2. Do you think that the adamantium bypasses durability when it inflicts harm upon attackers? Someone like The Brit whose only power is durability would still hurt his hand?

not gonna lie this could have been shortened to 10-20 words... i think i fell asleep in the middle of this tirade, you are ignorant though and it directly affects your argument, your argument reeks of ignorance.

I didn't put a gun to your head and make you read all those words, just don't bother if it ails you.

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply didn't know what an argument from ignorance , also known as an appeal to ignorance, is so I tried to explain it to you in a way that would clear that up. But I see now that, quite aside from you misappropriation of the phrase, you were just trying to insult me in an ad hominem.

but you are still maintaining Logan can be hurt by peak human attacks despite the fact i've shown he regularly no sells stronger better attacks

Either by relying on healing or absorbing the attacks on the adamantium parts of his body, which I have shown can be bypassed by fodder just targeting different parts of his body.

ok Peak Human is sub 1 tonne striking though, this is actually batshit insane. you honestly believe a Peak Human can strike with the force of 1 tonne? not a strawman you just don't understand basic power levels, which again is fine but lets not pretend its a strawman because you don't know any better.

That's just wrong, according to this, real life people can strike with one tonne of force.

Maybe you mean the striking associated with someone who can lift one tonne.

well then stop saying Peak Humans can KO him... and all this talk and absolutely no feats, i believe 100% you are talking out of your ass, i have asked you for feats several times now... you have provided 1? i provided many feats for you.

either admit defeat or get interested in it?

btw many normal to actual peak humans have hurt their hands punching Wolverine... it happens all the time

I don't have the time to respond today, I have told you about the feats I was using, you just don't like them. I'll come back tomorrow when I have time and make a second post, now that I've responded to your points one-by-one, that is focused on a new argument and has more feats.

Old Man Logan is not 616 Wolverine and is therefore irrelevant, and your lack of Wolverine knowledge was as prevalent in the Edward Cullen debate as it is now.

and to be honest i got tired of your shit in that debate too

I was unsure about its canonicity, I've heard conflicting accounts, but I never cared about it for informing my decisions anyway. I'm pretty sure I was actually thinking about two debates I had with jayz_94, you might be referencing a debate we had that I've forgotten or just pretending to remember.

and besides the 1 singular Mister X feat, whats your basis for this argument some feats would be nice? do you even have any? ive asked you to post them thrice now and this will be the 4th (and there will be a 5th just keep scrolling down)

I referenced far more than one feat, you're deliberately misrepresenting what I've said to you. But I'll post feats to convince you tomorrow night.

right ok but you know how there's literally no evidence at all suggesting he was knocked out... that's literally the end of it.

I've been saying that to you.

way to explain away with no proof whatsoever... and Wolverine has been shown to be graphic many times, he literally stabs people, they could have shown his costume torn if they felt like it. this is a weak argument, bordering on Pathetic

Yeah, but in this instance we don't see any damage to his suit or face that should've been inflicted by Sabretooth's claws, even if you think the blunt force component of the attack was thanked. There's no reason to say that a lack of portraying cosmetic damage implies a lack of damage, especially because in comics it is a commonly used trope that Beauty is Never Tarnished. There is even what is possibly blood droplets which should mean he slashed Logan's face. We also see Sabretooth attack Wolverine's vulnerable belly, bypassing adamantium resistance, and he cries out in pain, but we see no visible damage.

it literally said in the title of the image its 158. also Doomsday and Superman when fighting barely destroyed parts of a city... you gonna tell me the punches that killed Superman were sub city punches because they didn't do more damage to the surrounding area? another weak ass argument. I really shouldn't be surprised at this point.

Hulk and Thor have fought without destroying an entire city visibly, i guess Hulk and Thor are sub city level (this is not a strawman this me using your own backwards logic against you, please do try and understand the difference)

No, no, no, what I meant was that visibly it wasn't a wall level blow, as in, just from looking at it there is no reason to say is any more than wall level, not that it is only restricted to that level because of how it looks. What would make that feat impressive is because it is Rogue who is hitting him, which is why I asked you to source me the image so that I can figure out how powerful she was being portrayed.

Like when Superman slaps Batman in JL you can say that visibly it is only a car door level feat but because it is Superman you can say that it is supposed to be of a higher level than it actually looks or is shown by the degree of collateral. I of course get what you're saying here, you can't downplay a feat because of lack of collateral, but if you argue that it is higher than the level of collateral shown (basically, the baseline) you need scaling and other evidence, which is what I requested.

ok so Captain America isn't peak human never has been, never will be this is where your bullshit power classification has mislead you, and the only time Captain America does notable damage is through some pressure attack like in Wolverine Origins or with his shield, not with his bare fists.

I've seen him just hurt him with his bare fists at least two times, I'll show it tomorrow, but hitting him with the shield should also be valid.

and Daredevil's only decent fight against Wolverine was during Enemy of State when Logan was put through a gauntlet without rest and he had to mostly use other weapons against him, Daredevil actually did very little damage to Logan. And in Hunt for Wolverine, Daredevil was near fodderized by Albert (and could not do any damage to him), Albert is the weaker, slower, less durable AU version of Wolverine so... again consistency doesn't favor you

Mister X is your one and only possibility and its offset by dozens of others...

I'll look at the Wolverine and Albert stuff.

and are you really gonna use Death of Wolverine feats (where he was noticeably weaker in every sense of the word) in an attempt to argue this? wow i almost wish you had just stuck to not using any feats.

I've seen Reed Richards state that his physical strength and the like were the same, the only thing that was actually affected was his healing factor. You can argue that he was weaker in Death of Wolverine because over the course of the time period because he accumulated damage from foes and possible health effects (although I'm skeptical because he was shown in good health after five months) but in this story the former wasn't present and in the later case the health effects hadn't progressed to a sufficient degree to change the durability of his flesh and muscles. And fundamentally it shows that the protection of adamantium is incomplete and invalidates your showing that is attributed to adamantium absorbing attacks.

im not gonna lie this is boring to me, because you don't grasp the difference between Superhuman and Peak Human (Captain America is the line for Superhuman man, its pretty well recognized)

your definition of peak human is atrocious... 5-10 tonnes is not peak human, consistent and casual bullet timing is not peak human (even with telepathy its not peak human).

That's fine. I hope to convince you tomorrow, where I'll articulate my case more concisely and use more feats to explain what I can.

Cap is only really the definition for peak in the MU and even then you'll probably find other peaks who are better in some ways and worse in others.

I never said 5-10 tonnes is peak. Casual bullet timing is a peak human feat, consistent is a complicated matter I can't touch briefly.

Telepathy just makes aim dodging easier.

@warlockmage: Comic Vine ate my comment, I was only half done, but I'll recreate it tomorrow, I'll edit this post and PM you, if you want to see the feats that I will use you can see they've been uploaded to my gallery.

The argument that Deku gets blitzed by people below Mach one is nonsensical as hell. Wolverine does win though.

@warlockmage: Right, CV ate my comment so I'll quickly recreate the main points that I was going to say to you.

The opening statement that started this all was when I claimed that peak humans and thereabouts, which I think you can accept to at least mean slightly superhuman, are able to defeat Wolverine. We haven't really talked about healing factor because eventually it can be overtaxed, the main point of discussions seems to really boil down to if Wolverine can be hurt by peak humans. I maintain, because of instances I've seen and my reasoning that a low level superhuman with unbreakable bones is logically capable of being harmed by that level of attack, that Wolverine can be hurt by peak humans and low level superhumans.

I will be posting in snips to avoid the new, revised rules on using full scale image. Anyone who wants to see the full scans can use the references I provide.

Is Wolverine less durable in the Death of Wolverine storyline?

On the face of it, Wolverine still had his superhuman durability, as his stats were unaffected, after losing his healing factor from the Death of Wolverine storyline, as stated by Reed Richards. And, of course, his adamantium was unaffected.

You might make the case that Wolverine was being weakened by his adamantium harming his body but he in fact reflects during Death of Wolverine issue three, in spite of the fact that Reed did warn him about potential health defects, reflecting that he plans on continuing with his now merely mortal lifespan in peace. This shows that he wasn't feeling any continual health effects from the time he lost his healing factor to his death.

You might make the case that Wolverine has lackluster showings in the Death of Wolverine main four issues but it is important to note that he was suffering the accumulated damage from the continual fighting off of Cornelius's agents. We see that this began after he breaks ties with the rest of the superhero community, with him reflecting that he was being ''torn in half in slow motion'', which means that the feats that I have referenced and will reference occurred before was weakened by continual combat. We know this because we see him interact with other superheroes in those stories.

Anyway, I'm gonna continue to research the Death of Wolverine preludes to see if I can find anything that backs up a decrease in durability, which you suggest exists. If you have any evidence I would appreciate it.

TL;DR: There is a statement of his durability being unchanged and any low showings in Death of the Wolverine can be attributed to accumulated damage that occurred after he stopped interacting with other superheroes, which places it after him getting hurt in Wolverine and the X-Men issue nine and in Wolverine issue 8. I have begun searching and found no evidence that Wolverine suffered any increase of durability during the storylines which I have referenced.

The "Peak Humans Break Their Hands Argument" and why it fails

You have disagreed with my claim that because adamantium is a hard and tough material that the harder someone punches Wolverine's adamantium the more energy it returns to the attacker and that this energy does not bypass the durability of the attacker's fist, on the basis that it too closely resembles real life physics. I don't think that is reasonable but this argument, that peak humans will break their hands after attacking Wolverine, has an easy rebuttal. We see that in Wolverine and the X-Men issue 9 that some fodder, both bouncers and civilians controlled by Quire (Quentin has martial arts knowledge) are able to harm Wolverine, you might say this is just an inconsistency as to the adamantium harming attackers but we actually see that when a bouncer attacks Wolverine's forehead that his hand breaks, prompting his college to remind him to attack Wolverine's softer parts. We even see them attacking his head with kicks and a civilian striking his head seemingly without hurting her hand so it seems fodder can strike Wolverine if they use skill.

The instance of fodder hurting himself off Wolverine's skull, prompting a remind that one should attack his softer parts.

Instances of fodder in this issue hurting Wolverine safely.

TL;DR: You might believe that Wolverine was weaker than usual in this instance, which may or may not be true, but the central point is this; it is possible to target Wolverine's soft biological tissue to safely strike him and inflict greater damage than striking at adamantium protected areas would entail. I can't stress enough that the point is not necessarily to say that fodder can hurt him.

Can Peak Humans hurt Wolverine?

Yes, I say that peak humans can indeed hurt Wolverine. Wolverine is a low level superhuman with unbreakable bones, it seems logical that peak humans can hurt his soft parts. This belief is supported by feats in my view, with his higher showings being attributed to, generally, a combination of his adamantium skeleton absorbing most of the damage and his healing factor enhancing his staying power. To show Wolverine getting hurt by peak humans I decided to basically pick examples of them and find examples of them fighting and Wolverine getting hurt.

Captain America

The first instance of Captain America harming Wolverine is in Captain America 404, where he punches a raging Wolverine hard enough to elicit a clear expression of pain and further enrage him.

Next, in Wolverine: Origins issue four we see Steve strike Logan hard enough that he loses his battle composure and seemingly takes a moment to recover.

Furthermore, he also crushes Wolverine's tendons with brute strength in the same issue.

We also see, in the next issue of the same issue, that a blow from Steve once again hurts Logan, forcing him to hold back on his rampage.

We also see in Avengers versus X-Men issue 3 that during their fight, after one blow from Steve, that Wolverine is seem wobbling on his feet (look closely and you see motion lines outlining his body, which are similarly drawn surrounding Steve's form after taking a blow from Logan) and after three blows, two with his fists and one with his shields that Logan is clearly wobbling and seemingly having some difficulty speaking properly.

TL;DR: Simply put, we see that Captain America, who is to some the definitive peak of peak human, is capable of consistently hurting Logan with both his shield but also his mere fists.

Daredevil

To my knowledge, they have only had two fights, I will say in one that Matt took Logan by surprise and knocked him to the ground with a kick to the face. Though he did go down we see Logan returning a kick of his own from the ground right after - whether this represents a no-sell or merely an automatic break-fall and counterattack is up to your interpretation.

In Wolverine issue 24, we see Matt land two blows. With the first, we seen Logan thrown across a room and through a wall. Matt then proceeds to defeat most of Logan's backup. This, along with with Wolverine's expression and lack of any of break-fall or attempt to protect himself from the fall, can be taken to imply being hurt. Not exactly conclusive but it is one legitimate reading.

What is undeniable is that soon after, when Matt lands a blow with a dumbbell on Logan's head, that he is clearly stunned and falls in his disorientation.

TL;DR: There is at least one clear showing, despite their lack of interaction, where Matt was able to badly stun Wolverine, albeit with the benefit of an improvised weapon.

Shang-Chi

In Wolverine (2018) issue eight we see Shang-Chi striking Wolverine alongside Iron Fist (who first hits his other, to post it all would be to post the full page), and he is clearly hurt. This in the prelude to Death of Wolverine, so if you can show any decrease in durability that should invalidate it.

In Wolverine: First Class issue nine we see that Shang-Chi beats Wolverine with two sticks badly enough that he is knocked flat on his back.

In this case wee see Shang-Chi hurt bone claw Logan, with him giving him credit for "first blood". This only applies to adamantium Wolverine when non-adamantium protected areas are targeted, however. From X-Men (1991) issue 62.

TL;DR: Pretty standard, Shang-Chi can hurt Wolverine, especially if he targets areas not protected by adamantium.

Silver Samurai

Not really known for blunt force he has peak human strength that allows him to hurt Wolverine.

In Wolverine (1998) issue two Harada clearly hurts Wolverine fairly badly, with his acknowledging the blows are inflicting a significant price upon him.

Silver Samurai also briefly knocks Wolverine out with a blow to the temple with a bokuto, a simple blunt force training tool.

TL;DR: Again, pretty standard, SS can hurt him with just plain blunt force attacks.

I plan on adding to this post in the future but if this is enough to convince you, then you can save me the trouble. I'm gonna find more scans of peaks hurting him, then move onto low level superhumans, and I'm gonna research Death of Wolverine preludes to see if there is any evidence to suggest reduced durability.