Itachi and Minato vs Obito and Nagato

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LlehDevil

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Team 1 with moderate difficulty for reasons stated.

L. D.

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kuroimugetsu

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#53  Edited By kuroimugetsu

@hulkage: are u serious? Bijuu bombs are pathetically unefficient. They cant even explode when the user wants them to. One gets bitch slapped somewhere else and detonated only after its miles away. And btw any mountain level bijuu dama requires chargong time. Withen that charging timw shinra tensei will be ready. Bijuu dama are not like aizens fraggor that instantly explode. They can be heavily manipulated.

Finally u have no way of estimating the weight and or power of any bijuu dama when it's no exploded yet. Those bijuu dama could be no more than a few or several tons at best. The ball form is unqualifiedable

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MudaMudaMuda

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#54  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@hulkage said:

@mudamudamuda: Difference is that Minato is much more levelheaded and tactical than Naruto. And his expertise with FTG is ridiculous and plays a huge factor in this fight.

How does having FTG affect what I said ? Minato can only teleport to where he has thrown his kunais, so Nagato's deva path counters that pretty hard due to his AoE.

I see no reason to assume that Minato can use FTG while charging a bijuu bomb but even if he could Nagato has plenty of summons to keep him busy (he has no answer to the Cerberus) and once Chibaku tensei comes into play and pulls up all the marked kunais, it's either destroy it or die. So Nagato will know exactly where Minato will be aiming his Bijuu bombs and will thus use any of the tactics I mentioned in my previous post to deal with Minato.

Don't forget that Nagato could absorb the equivalent of 5-6 tails of Killer B's chakra faster than he could take damage from the Lariat :

No Caption Provided

So once he lays a hand on him, Minato can kiss his KCM good bye.

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TheVivas

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@jashro44 said:

@thevivas said:

@jashro44: Do what? Summon Ma and Pa?

Yea.

He doesn't really need to. He has better control than Jiraiya.

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Nefarious

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It took the combined efforts of BM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi to beat Nagato. Itachi might lose to Nagato if he doesn't play his cards right. Minato already beat Obito so he should win here.

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TheVivas

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@hulkage: hmmm that is not correct. Bijuu bombs have been shown to be able to be deflected on several occasions. even hashi's wood deflected one. They are apparently not difficult to deflect.

They're only "easily deflected" when the person doing the deflecting has the right means to.

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jashro44

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@thevivas said:

@jashro44 said:

@thevivas said:

@jashro44: Do what? Summon Ma and Pa?

Yea.

He doesn't really need to. He has better control than Jiraiya.

Yea but his control still sucks. Despite the fact Jiraiya can't enter sage mode on his own I still view him as better with it. It might take him longer to go sage mode, but he can hold it a lot longer than Minato can. We also saw Jiraiya do things while in sage mode, where as Minato didn't do anything. Minato would probably beat Jiraiya regardless but thats because base minato is basically>sage Jiraiya. All though Minatos sage mode is almost useless IMO.

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TheVivas

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@jashro44 said:

@thevivas said:

@jashro44 said:

@thevivas said:

@jashro44: Do what? Summon Ma and Pa?

Yea.

He doesn't really need to. He has better control than Jiraiya.

Yea but his control still sucks. Despite the fact Jiraiya can't enter sage mode on his own I still view him as better with it. It might take him longer to go sage mode, but he can hold it a lot longer than Minato can. We also saw Jiraiya do things while in sage mode, where as Minato didn't do anything. Minato would probably beat Jiraiya regardless but thats because base minato is basically>sage Jiraiya. All though Minatos sage mode is almost useless IMO.

That's Kishimoto's fault, tbh. Lol

Also, this is really off topic now.. I agree with most of your points anyway at this point, so yeah. Lol

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PrinceAragorn1

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With kurama, team 1 takes a good majority.

It took the combined efforts of BM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi to beat Nagato. Itachi might lose to Nagato if he doesn't play his cards right. Minato already beat Obito so he should win here.

nagato never fought BM naruto. He fought Kcm naruto..

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ValarMelkor

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Obito and Nagato win.

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Nefarious

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With kurama, team 1 takes a good majority.

@nefarious said:

It took the combined efforts of BM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi to beat Nagato. Itachi might lose to Nagato if he doesn't play his cards right. Minato already beat Obito so he should win here.

nagato never fought BM naruto. He fought Kcm naruto..

Thanks for the correction. I guess.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@princearagorn1 said:

With kurama, team 1 takes a good majority.

@nefarious said:

It took the combined efforts of BM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi to beat Nagato. Itachi might lose to Nagato if he doesn't play his cards right. Minato already beat Obito so he should win here.

nagato never fought BM naruto. He fought Kcm naruto..

Thanks for the correction. I guess.

Anytime :)

The distinction is important because BM can go full kurama and more chakra is shared by the tailed beast - willingly.

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andr413

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Nefarious

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@nefarious said:

@princearagorn1 said:

With kurama, team 1 takes a good majority.

@nefarious said:

It took the combined efforts of BM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi to beat Nagato. Itachi might lose to Nagato if he doesn't play his cards right. Minato already beat Obito so he should win here.

nagato never fought BM naruto. He fought Kcm naruto..

Thanks for the correction. I guess.

Anytime :)

The distinction is important because BM can go full kurama and more chakra is shared by the tailed beast - willingly.

Yes, it is very important. I always mix those two for some reason.

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kgb725

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Kamui and Gedo Statue lead to a 8/10 victory for nagato and obito

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ancient_god

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Itachi and Minato

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kuroimugetsu

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@thevivas: wood deflected the kyuubi bijuu dama enough said

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TheVivas

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@kuroimugetsu: And? You somehow think that makes it "easily deflectable"?

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kuroimugetsu

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@thevivas: wood bro wood of all things. And it was the kyuubis bijuu dama to boot. Arguably the most powerful save for juubi. Woof bro. gg

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TheVivas

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@kuroimugetsu: That same "wood" is capable of going toe to toe with Madara's Perfect Susanoo and has the ability to suppress Biju chakra. Doesn't mean anything if it redirects a BB.

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kuroimugetsu

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@thevivas: the surprising bijuu chakra was a special ability that was responsible. He wasn't capable of holding it down with the wood alone. It's a ninjutsu just like what captain Yamato had. Secondly, just because he used woods type to fight madara doesn't mean he was beating him with it and not a combination with other powers. Wood style can be cut in half. It's wood bro. Gg

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slimj87d

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Nagato is going to need his legs here, which the OP didn't give him.

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TheVivas

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@kuroimugetsu:

the surprising bijuu chakra was a special ability that was responsible

What?

He wasn't capable of holding it down with the wood alone

Yeah he is. Madara was holding down Naruto in Tailed Beast Form with just the Wood Dragon. Hashirama > Madara when it comes to using Wood style.

Secondly, just because he used woods type to fight madara doesn't mean he was beating him with it and not a combination with other powers

Wood Style is the main reason he beat Madara, along with Sage Jutsu.

Wood style can be cut in half. It's wood bro. Gg

Tell that to Hashirama's Wood Golem, who fought Madara's Perfect Susanoo. Madara's PS could cut mountains with just the effect of drawing his blade, and yet it couldn't beat the Wood Golem:

No Caption Provided

It doesn't matter if it's wood.

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kuroimugetsu

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#75  Edited By kuroimugetsu

@thevivas: condensed wood Is not impressive. What's it's durability calced at. BTW susano cut a mountain but I don't remember hashis wood golem never tanked a direct attack from perfect susano sword. He always caught or dodged. Show me where he outright tanked it. Then I will concede

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Saint_of_Origin

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#76  Edited By Saint_of_Origin

@slimj87d: I intended to. That's what I meant by perfectly healthy, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.

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Hulkage

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@hulkage said:

@mudamudamuda: Difference is that Minato is much more levelheaded and tactical than Naruto. And his expertise with FTG is ridiculous and plays a huge factor in this fight.

How does having FTG affect what I said ? Minato can only teleport to where he has thrown his kunais, so Nagato's deva path counters that pretty hard due to his AoE.

I see no reason to assume that Minato can use FTG while charging a bijuu bomb but even if he could Nagato has plenty of summons to keep him busy (he has no answer to the Cerberus) and once Chibaku tensei comes into play and pulls up all the marked kunais, it's either destroy it or die. So Nagato will know exactly where Minato will be aiming his Bijuu bombs and will thus use any of the tactics I mentioned in my previous post to deal with Minato.

Don't forget that Nagato could absorb the equivalent of 5-6 tails of Killer B's chakra faster than he could take damage from the Lariat :

No Caption Provided

So once he lays a hand on him, Minato can kiss his KCM good bye.

How does having FTG affect what I said ? Minato can only teleport to where he has thrown his kunais, so Nagato's deva path counters that pretty hard due to his AoE.

You are forgetting that even without FTG that Minato was stated to be the fastest Shinobi alive. 5 seconds is more than enough time for him to operate and this:

Minato can only teleport to where he has thrown his kunais

...is not entirely true. He can teleport to wherever he places a seal, not just a Kunai. He can place the seals on shinobi, trees, the ground, etc. I can provide at least three examples where someone has FTG'd without a seal, although it may be due to inconsistencies on Kishi's part.

I see no reason to assume that Minato can use FTG while charging a bijuu bomb

Why wouldn't he be able to charge a BB while using FTG? He has FTG'd a Bijuu Bomb on several occasions and has FTG'd while charging a rasengan which IIRC was modeled after a bijuu bomb

but even if he could Nagato has plenty of summons to keep him busy (he has no answer to the Cerberus)

all summons get BFR'd to the countless number of seals he has set up over the numerous years (which conveniently never go away), just like he BFR'd Kurama and the Juubi Bomb

and once Chibaku tensei comes into play and pulls up all the marked kunais, it's either destroy it or die.

Itachi already knows how to destroy Chibaku Tensei and Bijuu bombs were proven effective against them (ie: Naruto versus Madara).

So Nagato will know exactly where Minato will be aiming his Bijuu bombs and will thus use any of the tactics I mentioned in my previous post to deal with Minato.

Of course Nagato would know where Minato is aiming his Bijuu Bombs at, himself of course, duh. But knowing that something is coming and being able to stop it are two different things. Once it is charged all he has to do is FTG it into his vicinity and then there is an explosions exponentially more powerful than any nuclear weapon going off before he can react.

But lets go over some of these tactics that you claim give Nagato the win over BSM Minato.

1. Soul Steal- Isn't instant, but guess what is.... FTG. He teleports himself out of harms way before any damage is done.

2. Chibaku Tensei- Itachi has intel on it and Bijuu Bombs are proven effective against it.

3. Shinra Tensei- Cool Technique but unfortunately it has a five second interval between use and that way to much time for the Fastest Shinobi in History (by title) to operate, not to mention he has sage mode sensing

4. Summonings- Get BFR'd or dealt with by Frog Summons of his own, don't forget Minato also has a contract with the toads of Mt. Myokubou (or however the hell you spell it)

5. Ashura Path- gets Rasengan oneshotted yet again

6. Absorption- isn't instant, FTG is. And that might not be the best idea considering the history of absorbing senjutsu chakra

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slimj87d

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@slimj87d: I intended to. That's what I meant by perfectly healthy, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.

Oh. I don't think it's in the OP. I only saw it for Itachi.

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Saint_of_Origin

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@slimj87d: Did I not put it there? Huh. I'll update that. I meant to. Sorry about that.

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kuroimugetsu

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Nagato is the deciding factor here and so is minato.

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slimj87d

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@slimj87d: Did I not put it there? Huh. I'll update that. I meant to. Sorry about that.

This is actually a very good fight. Congrats.

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kgb725

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@hulkage: He can summon the Gedo statue which the toads can't handle

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Hulkage

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@kgb725: You mean the one Choji was fighting? It gets BFR'd

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MudaMudaMuda

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#84  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@hulkage:

You are forgetting that even without FTG that Minato was stated to be the fastest Shinobi alive. 5 seconds is more than enough time for him to operate and this:

True, but you are forgetting how far a regular Shinra tensei can send him flying. Naruto and the frogs were pretty much fighting at the center of the village and Pain sent them flying far away from the village:

No Caption Provided

In case you didn't remember, Konoha village if far larger than 20 km. Forest of death, top right, which is 20 km in diameter is nothing in comparison.

No Caption Provided

Not to mention that insane amount of damage it can cause. As It broke all of Gamabunta's bones.

...is not entirely true. He can teleport to wherever he places a seal, not just a Kunai. He can place the seals on shinobi, trees, the ground, etc.

I know, bad choice of words on my part. I meant to say wherever he has a seal. Still Chibaku tensei can rip the entire area so no seals will be safe.

I can provide at least three examples where someone has FTG'd without a seal, although it may be due to inconsistencies on Kishi's part.

I'd like to see this. You are probably confusing Shunshin with Hiraishin IMO.

Why wouldn't he be able to charge a BB while using FTG? He has FTG'd a Bijuu Bomb on several occasions and has FTG'd while charging a rasengan which IIRC was modeled after a bijuu bomb

Minato has never teleported while charging an attack that's why. He always teleports after the attack is ready.

all summons get BFR'd to the countless number of seals he has set up over the numerous years (which conveniently never go away), just like he BFR'd Kurama and the Juubi Bomb

That counts as giving Minato prep which the Op doesn't state. We are to treat the fight as an independent battle. Also unlike Minato who has to entire in contact with a summon to teleport it, which means that it will hinder his bijuu bomb charging, Nagato can use all of his abilities at the same time due to the extra arms.

Itachi already knows how to destroy Chibaku Tensei and Bijuu bombs were proven effective against them (ie: Naruto versus Madara).

1) It took far more than a bijuu bomb to destroy the chibaku tensei

2 )Itachi will be too busy dealing with Obito. If we are to start mixing the two fights then obito can also make nagato intangible to mess with Minato's bijuu bombs.

Of course Nagato would know where Minato is aiming his Bijuu Bombs at, himself of course, duh. But knowing that something is coming and being able to stop it are two different things. Once it is charged all he has to do is FTG it into his vicinity and then there is an explosions exponentially more powerful than any nuclear weapon going off before he can react.

And how is Minato going to get the FTG seal close to Nagato who can fly ? How is he going to charge his bijuu bomb while summons are attacking from all sides and the chibaku tensei is ripping all the seals ? Why wouldn't Nagato be able to absorb the bijuu bomb like he did Hashibi's chakra ?

But lets go over some of these tactics that you claim give Nagato the win over BSM Minato.

BSM Minato isn't even a thing.

1. Soul Steal- Isn't instant, but guess what is.... FTG. He teleports himself out of harms way before any damage is done.

Soul seal is instant as long as Nagato grabs Minato's head. It's automatic-mind rape via human path.

2. Chibaku Tensei- Itachi has intel on it and Bijuu Bombs are proven effective against it.

Through help and which Minato can't use while overwhelmed by attacks.

3. Shinra Tensei- Cool Technique but unfortunately it has a five second interval between use and that way to much time for the Fastest Shinobi in History (by title) to operate, not to mention he has sage mode sensing

Irrelevant. Minato will be sent flying a considerable a mount of distance if he gets hit with a regular one and he doesn't have the feats to imply he could tank the massive shinra tensei. Minato can't even use sage mode for this fight as it takes too long for him to enter the mode.

4. Summonings- Get BFR'd or dealt with by Frog Summons of his own, don't forget Minato also has a contract with the toads of Mt. Myokubou (or however the hell you spell it)

The summons can't deal with Nagato's summon since they multiply. Also, Minato will have trouble BFR'ing them while charging a bijuu bomb while at the same time trying to enter sage mode and deal with chibaku tensei. lol

5. Ashura Path- gets Rasengan oneshotted yet again

Too bad preta path absorbs the rasengan while human path kills Minato.

6. Absorption- isn't instant, FTG is. And that might not be the best idea considering the history of absorbing senjutsu chakra

How does FTG being instant affect absorption ? And you make it sound as if Minato has a bright history with using senjutsu lol

In conclusion : You are treating each ability as if it were to happen in a removed scenario because Minato can deal with them one at a time. However, there is nothing stopping Nagato from using all of his tricks at the same time thus securing the win by overwhelming Minato.

I challenge you to present a scenario where Minato triumphs over the combined abilities of Nagato and not each ability separately. :)

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Saint_of_Origin

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@slimj87d: Thanks. I try to contribute what I can :D It actually took me a while to come up with a team that would be a match for Itachi and Minato without being a stomp on either end. I think this thread can pull out some pretty good discussion on both sides.

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kgb725

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@hulkage: Um no the host of the ten tails

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passingthrough545

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I agree with Slim on this one this is a great Naruto debate where neither side is going to stomp. I am leaning to team 1 though.

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Saint_of_Origin

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Bump because I want to see more debates, as I still think it could go 50/50

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StealthGrey

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BM Minato is overkill he solos

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EternalDarkFury

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Team 2.

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DevoidRuby

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Minato solos

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deactivated-5d39a38bf2071

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Itachi and Minato

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TheRedEagle778

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Team 2 wins nagato is the MVP

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MattyBoi

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Nagato solos.

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shirso

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BM Minato makes this a decisive victory for Team 1 imo

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Azureus

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How is Nagato beating BM Minato? Base Minato and Itachi are already somewhat of a problem as it is and he'd already some high level techniques to beat them. BM Minato could solo.

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ourmanuel

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Team 1, nagato really isnt anything special

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Anomalous

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Rules and Conditions

  • Itachi is completely healthy, so we are to consider his stamina at average Jonin level.
  • Minato is not Edo but has Yin Kurama
  • Obito is before he acquired the Rinnegan, so he has all feats that don't involve using it.
  • Nagato is not using Six Paths of Pain, but he does have Pain's limitations when using Deva Path. He's using his own body which is completely healthy.
  • Itachi, Minato, and Nagato's Edo feats can be referenced but you have to account for their "invulnerability" and unlimited chakra.
  • Both teams are given full knowledge of their opponents and teammates
  • Obito is NOT marked from his previous encounter with Minato
  • Minato can summon an endless amount of his marked kunai

Lol Minato solos with these rules. Full knowledge, KCM and unlimited teleport locations? Like what?