Isshiki vs Ichigo and Aizen

He absolutely fodderizes Ichigo but he still lacks a means to kill Aizen at the moment.

@decaffeinated said:

I can agree with this

@bleachro@animefreak@universalnaruto:

WHO do you guys think win?

WTF Aizen stomps and Ichigo stomps

Either Ichigo or Aizen stomp. Aizen can hypnotize and cut him to pieces while Ichigo can one shot.

KS likely isn't gonna work on Isshiki, it's a basic genjutsu in Naruto and Sasuke who has far more advanced genjutsu doesn't even see it as an option against him.

They're not even remotely comparable. One works by manipulating the senses with no counter or prerequisite other than looking at Aizen. The other can be broken, seen through, etc.

@diydeath: Basic genjutsus control senes as well. There's no counter in BLEACH because no one in Bleach has resistance to it, this isn't the case in Naruto where people train to resist genjutsu or have eyes that see through it

They work entirely different, however. One can distinguish the differences with Genjutsu and it can be broken, KS can't be broken.

As for resistance, you have three instances of this happening. Yhwach during the final fight with Aizen and Ichigo, Yama when he was stabbed by Aizen and Aizen adapting to the situation when his sense of direction was reversed by Shingi's shikai.

Aizen is going to catch on very fast that he's in a genjutsu, if he manages to get caught and operate while uder it's control, much like Deidara does. Aizen telling Ichigo he's under an illusion and to follow his commands will completely nullify any advantage genjutsu may give Narutoverse while Narutoverse has literally no way to counter KS, the moment they look at Aizen, they're under it's effect and there's no more sword to touch which is how it's dispelled. The only other way is to be SK Yhwach, realize you're under KS and somehow stop it's effects after that realization - and nobody in Narutoverse has any powers even remotely comparable to SK Yhwach's...the dude has comic book hax...

@diydeath:

They work entirely different, however. One can distinguish the differences with Genjutsu and it can be broken, KS can't be broken.

Headcanon. Just because no one in BLEACH has broken KS doesn't mean it can't be broken at all, you'd have to prove that it can't be broken.

As for resistance, you have three instances of this happening. Yhwach during the final fight with Aizen and Ichigo

Yhwach had no resistance to KS, and he was placed under it before he got The Almighty.

Yama when he was stabbed by Aizen

Feats for Yama resisting his senses being controlled? Or any hypnosis at all for that matter?

and Aizen adapting to the situation when his sense of direction was reversed by Shingi's shikai.

How is this a feat for KS?

Aizen is going to catch on very fast that he's in a genjutsu, if he manages to get caught and operate while uder it's control, much like Deidara does.

Depends on the type of genjutsu. Obito's genjutsu(which controlled a perfect jin) and Kotoamatsukami are both genjutsu that Aizen will not know he's under. I.T and Tsukuyomi will work regardless if he knows or not. Same for Izanami. Very few genjutsus are gonna be broken by him just knowing he's in it.

Aizen telling Ichigo he's under an illusion and to follow his commands will completely nullify any advantage genjutsu may give Narutoverse while Narutoverse has literally no way to counter KS, the moment they look at Aizen

That isn't gonna work as Ichigo will not be able to move his body nor hear Aizen.

I never argued that Isshiki was gonna genjutsu the duo here anyway so this point is moot.

The only other way is to be SK Yhwach, realize you're under KS and somehow stop it's effects after that realization

Only Naruto and Kaguya have hurt Isshiki, and this duo isn't them so therefore they can't hurt Isshiki. Everyone Isshiki has fought has been stomped, therefore the duo here gets stomped.

and nobody in Narutoverse has any powers even remotely comparable to SK Yhwach's...the dude has comic book hax

And they dont have to be Yhwach as they have resisted stronger illusions than KS.

You still haven't proven that KS can work on people with resistance to hypnosis btw.

Oh god this is such a stomp in Isshikis favor.

He tries to shrink their swords and gets splattered when it fails

1) Yeah, this is what fanboys say. I refrain from those things but if you just want to start screeching headcanon, OK, whatever mate. KS has a method in which is can explicitly be broken...by touching Aizen's sword...I don't think you know what you're talking about if you don't even know the basics of Aizen.

2) Yhwach broke it, re-read the Aizen/Ichigo vs Yhwach fight. We just aren't given an explanation as to why.

3) It's related to genjutsu not being very effective as we have one of the combatants here who has dealt with effects similar to genjutsu in their own universe.

4) Why wouldn't Aizen know? Do they substitute reality with their own believable version? Because the moment something outlandish happens, Aizen is going to realize what's going on. The guy's not stupid, he's just arrogant.

5) Depends on the Genjutsu but even if genjutsu takes Ichigo completely out of the picture Aizen is true blue immortal with teleportation and has crossed dimensional boundaries. Even BFR isn't going to work.

6) That's not logical at all -.- wtf

7) KS is absolute...unless you touch the blade or meet the same criteria as SK Yhwach did when he broke it, there's no counter. If you think there is, prove it.

I don't read the Bleach Novels but I seem to remember someone saying a literal copy of KS got broken out of by a special reikaku team just like how Naruto has sensory types or something.

Either way it doesn't matter tbh, he blitzs Ichigo and incaps Aizen with a a multitude of Chakra spikes.

from what I read Aizen does not posses this weakness, it said that because Tokinada reaitsu is far inferior to Aizen another weakness is born, this is the same case with Yamamoto Shikai where its heat is nowhere near the old man. after all Shikai and bankai arent all powerfull once they are gained, they need development and reaitsu along with it, Rukia for example had a completely different shikai as a Vice Captain and lower but when her reaitsu reached Captain level + it was massively superior.

Isshiki can solo Bleach verse. No one in Bleach can hurt Isshiki, let alone kills him.

@mattyboi: Disclaimer I am agreeing with you.

Not only has KS never been shown to work against people with any kind of TP or illusion resistance. But further, Aizen himself has never shown any resistance to illusions at all, meaning he can likely be effected by high level Genjustu.

I never understand why Bleach fans can not understand that KS is only so potent because no one in Bleach verse has any TP resistance. And you are totally right that that dominance that KS has in Bleach does not carry over to other verses with much better TP/illusion resistance.

@sullgoddd: its relative, tokinada had less reiatsu than the people he was trying to affect and didn't have the stamina to keep KS up for long.

If aizen came across someone with greater reiatsu he'd have just as hard of a time affecting them.

The novel does reveal another issue with KS that does apply to aizen which is the you actually need to think up the illusions. So the user needs to be creative and intelligent(like aizen is) to make convincing illusions. But if he's dealing with something he have enough knowledge on it'll be harder(like how unohana noticed his corpse was unusual after an autopsy)

Isshiki has 360 degree x-ray microscopic vision so its unlikely that he won't stop the issues in aizens illusions. Also, like other otsutsuki's, he can also see a person's fate with his byakugan and I doubt aizen can fool that.

No.

The weakness was born of his inferiority.

KS normally doesn't have any limit as we see it affect Yamamoto who had more reiatsu.

Also, I'm not arguing with you about whether it would work or not. I'm just clearing stuff up..

@manimalman: just want to clarify a couple things

Tokinada weakness of KS was only applicable to him. Aizen running into someone with more reiatsu wouldn't make it more difficult. Same with the creativity part. Tokinada said those are only applied to him

Also aizen was able to mess with the almighty which is much better fate manipulation/sight compared to the byakugan. Like leaps and bounds better

@sullgoddd: Yamamoto was about to detect aizen through ks. Tbh I'm not actually sure if Yama actually had stronger reiatsu than aizen at the time and if it did it sure wasn't a dramatic difference.

The stronger than victim's reiatsu is the more taxing it is on the caster to keep KS up.

isshiki just shrink their zanpakutos

No, he wasn't.

He was gonna use the fact that he was stabbed as a basis to confirm that he was grabbing the real Aizen's arm.

That's all that was happening.

That weakness is not part of Aizen's version of KS so nah. Tokinada said that was only his limits alone.

@sullgoddd: he was able to feel aizen's reiatsu from the stab which shouldn't be possible under ks.

His weakness because of his lack of reiatsu relative to his enemies.

Aizen wasn't using it at the time? He was just being arrogant and assumed that he could just get away with actually stabbing Yamamoto.

Aizen wasn't even being taxed at all by Yamamoto either. I already told you that that was Tokinada's weakness alone.

@silentnightz: Shinji does not have illusion resistance. The instance where he revealed Aizen hiding was an invisibility kido, nothing to do with illusions or TP.

Tell you what, I’ll give you something easy. Show me a single feat of illusion / TP resistance in Bleach. One single panel.

@silentnightz:

"Genjutsu from NARUTO can be broken tapping someone's shoulder, its hardly comparable. Maybe everyone in NARUTO needs to raise their illusion-chakra resistance and stop getting caught ogling red-eyed boys lol"

You'd need to inflict pain (like a stab or a broken finger) to escape genjutsu and that only works for standard genjutsu, higher level genjutsu is harder to break. Resistance is also something that can be trained like with deidara

Issike solostomps ichigo and aizen are just comparable to naruto and sasuke whom issike is effortlessly stomping. He easily does the same for these two as well. Issike even has the speed advantage over the duo partner for blitzing naruto and sasuke who at this time have been insanely fast

Isshiki dogshitstomps

Sukunahikona's their Zanpaktou's, their spirits thus not alive aka dead

Aizen's immortality is keeping him going, as Isshiki doesn't have a counter for it yet

@silentnightz: I'm only bringing up pain in reference to the tap on the shoulder thing, there are obviously other ways.

Not true, there are other high level genjutsu that aren't sharingan based like toad confrontation chant, gengetsu's clam genjutsu, hashirama's bringer of darkness etc

@bleachro: It doesn't have to be a genjutsu, they both control the 5 senses and Isshiki can resist that. You're gonna have to prove it can work on him when he has resistance to genjutsu.

yea aizen the only real problem here... teams wins for now.