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#1 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

At this point, I'm under the impression that these two are the strongest in all of Japanese fiction (outside of omnipotent beings of course). Is there anyone who can take them on?

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Rules:

  • High-balled WTC cosmology, meaning that Aurora and Beatrice both infinitely transcend a double quantum infinite-dimensional cosmology.
  • No omnipotent beings allowed (obviously).
  • No VS Battles logic.
  • No stupid meta/transcending fiction logic.
  • Japanese media includes anime, manga, novels, visual novels, and video games; nothing unofficial.

Round 1: Finding a character who can beat these two in a 1v1.

Round 2: Composite Japanese media character (excluding omnipotents) against both of them at once.

This may seem extreme pitting two characters against all of official Japanese fiction, but considering that there aren't that many strong characters from Japanese media, this seems pretty fair to me.

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#2 Posted by JOVIOLMA (6120 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by ENDLESS_DARK (65 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@joviolma said:
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I WAS WAITING FOR THIS. LOL

Rules say no omnipotents.

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#5 Posted by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by captain_inverse (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

DOREMON!

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#7 Posted by ovy7 (2919 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by MindingMuffin (350 posts) - - Show Bio

There isn't any and seeing as you ruled out omnipotent beings I can't bring out wanked Saitama.

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#9 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (4497 posts) - - Show Bio

Solo King Itachi because Genjutsu GG!

Damn no omnipotents my bad.

Seriously though I actually can't think of any.

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#10 Edited by ourmanuel (11395 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by FaradaySloth (9367 posts) - - Show Bio
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Online
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#12 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#13 Posted by RandomGuy287 (886 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Paytience (4903 posts) - - Show Bio

Composite Godzilla.

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#15 Posted by Rebake (3946 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Not at all. Not any, Umineko is literally an extremely rare one of a kind verse from Japan and represents the strongest facet of Japanese imagination thus far.

Ryukishi was very well adept and creative with his writing.

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#17 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Hm. Would you say that a high-balled Umineko cosmology is the second largest/strongest cosmology next to composite DC?

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#18 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam: Hm. Would you say that a high-balled Umineko cosmology is the second largest/strongest cosmology next to composite DC?

How would we know? There could be an Cambodian, Lebanese, Indian, Israeli, Vietnamese or Indonesian or even a Filipino writer, writing something even more OP than all interpretations of DC or Marvel, Dark Tower and Umineko and we wouldn't know about it.

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#19 Posted by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I meant in terms of the verses we know of currently.

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#20 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam: I meant in terms of the verses we know of currently.

Oh, yes, Umineko is the only thing second to Composite DC just as Composite DC is the only thing I know of that can surpass Highballed Umineko. But this is speaking in terms of main verses.

If I had to guess, from verses I know of (that are obscure) would be this small OG fiction community V&D Wiki. Don't call it fanfiction as it is not based on any verse we know, but it is an obscure community driven verse

https://verse-and-dimensions.fandom.com/wiki/The_Box

The Box is an Infinitely Layered Construct that contains all physics, metaphysics, pataphysics, anything, and is so all-encompassing, only an Omnipotent can surpass it, so if you're not Omnipotent, you cannot surpass it. No matter how big your Cosmology is.

IDK, it depends on definition of what you mean by what you or I know of.

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#21 Posted by VeilerAX10 (236 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I've actually seen The Box link you sent me years ago; I found it very interesting. I thought it was a mere theory/idea type of thing and not a verse though.

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#23 Posted by Gaoron (8826 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by Yasindermann (1156 posts) - - Show Bio

Hm, hard. From that what I've heard, Aurora and Beatrice don't transcend a default double-infinite dimensional cosmology by infinite layers, they transcends a double infinite-dimensional quantum multiverse by infinite layers.. Meaning that new double infinite-dimensional multiverses get's created in an instant (From that what I've heard). This is the point, where just composite DC characters can deal with them. Like Destiny, Lucifer, Perpetua, etc.

@zgtfreak Hope my anser helps you!

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#25 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: Yas, I would rather just isolate Composite DC in DC vs DC threads like usual though. Because it's too much.

I would rather people scale Death, Lucifer, Pralaya, Mandrakk and co. to just early N52 Cosmology where DC was Infinitely and Boundlessly layered until the Book of Limbo, Limbo, M. Sphere and S. Wall in order with a Quantum Super-Position Multiverse below it. Still challenged by Composite Marvel (sort of). Until Snyder's 2019 shittery. Where it's more debatable.

Infinite Dimensional Cosmologies are a very very rare thing in fiction, even rarer in Japanese fiction. I highly doubt you will find another Japanese fiction even close to Umineko.

And looky, next is my 3000th post.

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#26 Posted by Yasindermann (1156 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yes, but the problem is that I didn't find any character who can beat this two. That's the only reason why I used composite DC cosmology.

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#27 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: Hm, hard. From that what I've heard, Aurora and Beatrice don't transcend a default double-infinite dimensional cosmology by infinite layers, they transcends a double infinite-dimensional quantum multiverse by infinite layers.. Meaning that new double infinite-dimensional multiverses get's created in an instant (From that what I've heard).

Yes, this is true.

@sungsam The problem is that high-balled Umineko suffers the same fate as composite DC cosmology (aka steamrolling everyone) if we remove composite DC cosmology.

And looky, next is my 3000th post.

Already?

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#28 Posted by Yasindermann (1156 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Has nothing to do with this threat, but now I think even beings like the highballed pre-retcon Beyonder is below the voyagers. Even in raw power.

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#29 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann said:

@sungsam: Yes, but the problem is that I didn't find any character who can beat this two. That's the only reason why I used composite DC cosmology.

But wouldn't this be the exact same "problem" except in this Composite DC's case?

Also, I disagree with Featherine and the likes being unbeatable if no one utilizes the composite DC. Although, I guess this could be because I have not familiarized myself with the new tiering system that's being utilized as of late and still tier these characters the same way I did months ago. I'll check out @sungsam multiversal thread for a better understanding.

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#30 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Composite DC takes every bit of information for every level of DC at maximum, and makes it massive, like Heaven and Hell creating a Universe for every Soul in the Lower Multiverse and Creation and scaling to the Infinite orders of Infinity that is the Metaverse having that many souls for each universe and an old Spectre/PS scan saying that each Universe in DC has infinite pocket dimensions and every Universe in DC has an Infinite Nothing Dimension in each Blackhole according to Sandman Overture.

It's problems however lie in the occasional plotholes that come with it. Like the fact that the Presence is portrayed at different power levels between three different or so writers. (Though many on VSBW sometimes rationalize that the Presence appears on different level avatars).

Anyone that doesn't like Composite DC would (no one has done it, but I PREDICT) will nitpick all the plotholes. And paint me in a negative way to make me look like a wanker when I really just want to give the context to DC's messy cosmology.

The problem is that ALL interpretations of DC's Multiverse (lowball or highball) come with their assortment of Cosmic Plotholes as well, not just Composite DC, in fact, the plotholes is a bad reason because all of them have the same problem. Composite DC is as valid as any other interpretation IMO, and I'm capable of giving reasons not to use Composite DC in many arguments.

It's mostly political that I don't want to use Composite DC so much. It would put me in bad water from reactionaries from Spacebattles then VSBattles coming in my direction because the Lovecraftian, Outerversalist and Sci-Fi puritan establishments will attack us for it. Maybe trolls will be after me. IDK. There are boundaries that I rather don't want to step, despite me having very out-there opinions in Multiverse debates.

I'm looking only 10 steps ahead. I would rather take it slow.

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#31 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Also, I disagree with Featherine and the likes being unbeatable if no one utilizes the composite DC.

Well we are going off the high-balled idea that the Human Domain is infinite-D, yet still infinitely below the infinite-D Witches Domain, meaning a high-balled Aurora and Creator Witch/TP Beatrice transcend a double infinite-D cosmology.

Me and Etriel were going to get into the final big debate on which is more valid, the high-balled double infinite-D cosmology or mid-balled single infinite-D cosmology, with me backing up why the high-ball is more likely; but then we both got too lazy.

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#32 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@kilgpmktra: Also, I disagree with Featherine and the likes being unbeatable if no one utilizes the composite DC.

Well we are going off the high-balled idea that the Human Domain is infinite-D, yet still infinitely below the infinite-D Witches Domajn, meaning a high-balled Aurora and Creator Witch/TP Beatrice transcend a double infinite-D cosmology.

Me and Etriel were going to get into the final big debate on which is more valid, the high-balled double infinite-D cosmology or mid-balled single infinite-D cosmology, with me backing up why the high-ball is more likely; but then we both got too lazy.

sungsam and i dont even agree on a lot of things. sometimes we really just have to agree to disagree and just say fuck it. with all these outerversalists making new accounts left and right, we are forced to put aside the disagreements within the bloc.

besides, i would rather back highballed umineko if it means shitting on those wankwaftians pieces of shit. an old recurring db wanker is literally a wankwafian for christs sake.

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#33 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Yeah. Disagreeing is fine since we're both reasonable debaters that need to deal with real wankers. Real as in their wank is 100% invalid with no room for debate whatsoever.

I'm happy that I've taken a minor break from wank debunking though. Me and Kil are currently having a debate on who's the strongest in Umineko: Aurora or Creator Beatrice. Both of us have good arguments, and it reminds me of the old days when people actually had real debates and not wankfest with salt.

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#34 Edited by greenroost (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

no

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#35 Posted by ovy7 (2919 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly don't know if there's anyone who could defeat them under the normal interpretation of the cosmology (maybe just stalemating them, maybe), let alone the high-balled interpretation.

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#36 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7 said:

I honestly don't know if there's anyone who could defeat them under the normal interpretation of the cosmology (maybe just stalemating them, maybe), let alone the high-balled interpretation.

I hear that Magi Labyrinth of Magic has an Infinite Hierarchy of Gods. Maybe they can stalemate Midballed Umineko, Marvel, DC and Dark Tower.

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#37 Posted by ovy7 (2919 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yeah, I've heard something similar too, but I don't know how true this is. VSBW seem to mention something like this in their Magi profiles, but the highest there is like only 1-B.

Well, Magi is on my reading list, so I'll probably find out how true this is soon enough.

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#38 Posted by johnsmjs36 (322 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yeah. After Sinbad takes control of the sacred palace he says that each reality has a god or supreme being whose fate is controlled by a god of higher existence. The God basically controls the reality of the god who is controlling the reality and it goes on and on. The very concept of the sacred palace is that it can change the hierarchy of the gods.

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#39 Posted by johnsmjs36 (322 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: It is very good. Probably, the best shonen I have read till now.

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#40 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnsmjs36: Does it go on and on until infinitely? Then whatever unseen character is on the end of that Infinite Hierarchy takes the cake on taking on Umineko in general interpretations and DT, WH, DC, Marvel on standard interpretations.

There, we got 1 answer, at least.

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#41 Posted by johnsmjs36 (322 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah. It was never said where it stops, the whole final arc revolves around Sinbad trying to fight them with the ability to change hierarchy and Ugo and Aladdin trying to change his mind because not only is he goinv to change everything into rukh for enough energy to blow a hole through all of realities but he is gonna bring all of them at the same plane destroying everything. I tried to send scans but I don't know how on my phone.

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#42 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnsmjs36 said:

Yeah. It was never said where it stops,

Ah, so no wonder VSBattles just places it as 1-B.

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#44 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I personally don’t having anything against the composite DC.

I just don’t agree with people utilizing it as a way to keep certain characters from being deemed too powerful by keeping them in check with it which Yasin was saying. If people only bring out the “big guns” solely because they think beyonder or Featherine being strong is a problem, then that same problem just gets re directed to DC because now they’re too strong if people honestly think that’s a problem.

I understand why you are thinking ahead. That’s what I like to do which is why I sometimes go back and try to go over my older comments for anyone that may view them In the future. I want to be as accurate as I can be not just to put weight to my words but to help anyone that tries to utilize arguments I created and for more credibility to the series I’m arguing for

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#45 Posted by Amonfire1776 (3014 posts) - - Show Bio

Tori Bot

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#46 Posted by CaoCao (1436 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by Amonfire1776 (3014 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by zgtfreak (1886 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@kilgpmktra: Also, I disagree with Featherine and the likes being unbeatable if no one utilizes the composite DC.

Well we are going off the high-balled idea that the Human Domain is infinite-D, yet still infinitely below the infinite-D Witches Domain, meaning a high-balled Aurora and Creator Witch/TP Beatrice transcend a double infinite-D cosmology.

Me and Etriel were going to get into the final big debate on which is more valid, the high-balled double infinite-D cosmology or mid-balled single infinite-D cosmology, with me backing up why the high-ball is more likely; but then we both got too lazy.

I mean, with all due respect to you and every other one else's views, I just don't understand why this would be the case.

I've seen this argument being used in that revision thread, but it still didn't really make much sense with me especially when the person arguing for it didn't really provide scans that proved his/her case. It doesn't look like something I can really prove or even allude to with scans from the series itself and is for the most part, dependent on my own interpretations. This is also why I started to dislike vsbattle, OBD and a great deal of multiversal marvel debaters since that is the very thing they started doing.

Even though I consider myself an advocate for Umineko, the recent Umineko/Featherine hype doesn't sit well with me (even though i'm probably responsible for it too) since it appears a bunch of context is being misinterpreted to support these characters and not something that can be authentically proven which is the opposite of what I wanted.

This is the same motivation behind why I began arguing against marvel since people was giving it an over abundance of leeway against characters that could truly challenge it. And now Marvel is looked as much weaker on the vine and many older marvel debaters being labeled as "wankers" which is something I would prefer not to transpire time after time with Umineko and its crowd. I don't mind people saying Featherine is above Beyonder or voyagers being on a comparable level of the ultimates or LT, because it can be proven without many leaps of logic.

But this...Idk about this bro.

I guess this also heavily depends on what tiering system is being used too...which I can totally understand.