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#1 Edited by Darth_Nimrod (2727 posts) - - Show Bio
IRONMAN, VISION, THE THING AND HUMAN TORCH
IRONMAN, VISION, THE THING AND HUMAN TORCH
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COLOSSUS AND RED HULK
COLOSSUS AND RED HULK

Rules:

Battle happens in an indestructible planet. No BFR. Morals off. Perfect teamwork. Ironman has a composite Extremis-Bleeding Edge armor. Vision, the Thing and Human Torch are at modern levels. Colossus has the powers of Juggernaut. Who wins?

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#2 Posted by Jacthripper (14905 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 kinda stomps. Vision phases Rulk's brain out and Tony melt's whatever's left. Thing and Johnny hold off Piotr pretty easily.

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#3 Posted by Toratorn (6768 posts) - - Show Bio

Torch overheats Rulk and then the rest proceed to gang up on Colossonaut.

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#4 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31474 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 kinda stomps. Vision phases Rulk's brain out and Tony melt's whatever's left. Thing and Johnny hold off Piotr pretty easily.

Aren't the Hulks generally "too dense" for Vision to phase through?

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#5 Posted by skywalker95 (4287 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 Stomp

Colossus could Solo

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#6 Posted by Jacthripper (14905 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 Stomp

Colossus could Solo

Against two supersonic characters who can fly? They can win by incap.

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#7 Posted by Jacthripper (14905 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper said:

Team 1 kinda stomps. Vision phases Rulk's brain out and Tony melt's whatever's left. Thing and Johnny hold off Piotr pretty easily.

Aren't the Hulks generally "too dense" for Vision to phase through?

I don't think I've ever read anything along those lines... Red Hulk is incredibly inconsistent. At his high end, he trolls Silver Surfer, at his low he gets oneshotted by Wonder Man.

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#8 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

Both Rulk and Colossus-Jugs are equal to one another and should be on the level of Doc Green, which means he should be comparable to base Hulk. Rulk could absorb Human Torch's abilities, and both he and Colossus here could tank the Bleeding Edge as we saw when Tony went all out against Rulk and it didn't do KO him. I think the team can contend for a while especially with the speed advantage, but they eventually have to retreat.

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#9 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: A morals off Rulk and Colossus could one-shot any individual on the team. Rulk has taken the full brunt of the Bleeding Edge before. And Colossus is even more durable than him. Vision got whopped by a Morals Off She-Hulk. And yes he did phase through her chest (Avengers Red Zone 2003).

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#10 Posted by Noone1996 (11515 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Red Hulk was never one-shotted by Wonder Man. He was overpowered and choked out with a headlock.

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#11 Posted by TonyMartial (8840 posts) - - Show Bio

T1 wrecks

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#12 Posted by Jacthripper (14905 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Red Hulk was never one-shotted by Wonder Man. He was overpowered and choked out with a headlock.

In the course of what? 10 seconds? It was ridiculous, considering that Hulks barely even need to breathe. I'm just pointing out the dichotomy of Red Hulk's feats.

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#13 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3072 posts) - - Show Bio

I would count on Tony + Vision being able to take out Rulk. Ben has already held his own against Colossonaut so with Johnny's help I don't see why he can't here. After Ross is down Piotr doesn't stand a chance against all of them.

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#14 Posted by Jacthripper (14905 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608: Are you talking about here? That was Tony bullrushing him, smacking him a couple times, and then blasting him into the ground, hardly "the full brunt" of Iron Man's capabilities. In addition, one of the sad truths is that Iron Man has so many different types of weapons but is so regularly limited by the writers to repulsors and fists for the sake of plot (for example, sonics, microbots, etc.)

Finally, if we are using Red Hulk with all of his absorbing feats, he stomps because that was literally all of his high end feats. Without his absorbing powers (which have not been on display for some time now). He gets wrecked by the team. You also provided no argument against phasing which Vision provides. Red Hulk could maybe take down the Thing in one punch, but it's not likely considering that World War Hulk could not put down the Thing in one punch.

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#15 Posted by DESPERO_Z_AMAZO (282 posts) - - Show Bio

See team 1 taking.

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#16 Posted by phillip33 (3940 posts) - - Show Bio

If colossus goes full possessed form I don’t see how they’re keeping him down.

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#17 Posted by Noone1996 (11515 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Why was it ridiculous? Rulk hit Simon a bunch of times, which he should be able to tank, and then Wonder Man hit him back. After that he used his superior travel speed to get around Red Hulk and overpower him through leverage which led to him getting choked out. They say that getting choked out constrains blood flow to the brain as it messes with the carotid artery, so it's not about making them lose breath. It has to do with blood pressure. If they went blow for blow I think Red Hulk would probably take a majority, but he just fought smarter which is why the fight was so brief.

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#18 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Note Tony's dialogue in the scan here. "I've faced the Hulk a LOT. I eventually learned that there was no way to engage him except full bore. But I always knew that inside was a good man who didn't want to hurt anyone. And I wonder. Was I really going all out? Or was I holding back in some way. Now though... I just don't have that dilemma"

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It's not hard to tell that Stark was clearly exerting himself totally here. Adding to that Tony did not yet know Rulk was "good guy" and he stated he didn't care, so he had no excuse to go easy even a little.

Surely it's hurting Rulk, but it didn't even knock him unconscious:

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So it's established that Rulk can tank the "full bore" of the Bleeding Edge Armor

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#19 Posted by Supermanthor (16590 posts) - - Show Bio

T2

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#20 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

My point was that if a Morals Off She-Hulk and stomp Vision, it would not hard for Rulk to simply slap him aside. And can they protect themselves from his Radiation too? Colossus takes down Tony and Vision, Rulk takes down Thing and Torch

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#21 Posted by Jacthripper (14905 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608: I think full bore would at the very least include something like this. Remember that this is Bleeding Edge/Extremis

Also, in those scans, he manhandles Red Hulk. Ross does not get in a single hit. At all. Extremis Iron Man has better speed feats than Bleeding Edge by far.

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#22 Posted by Toratorn (6768 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608 said:

@jacthripper: A morals off Rulk and Colossus could one-shot any individual on the team. Rulk has taken the full brunt of the Bleeding Edge before. And Colossus is even more durable than him. Vision got whopped by a Morals Off She-Hulk. And yes he did phase through her chest (Avengers Red Zone 2003).

Bullshit. Colossonaut has already failed to do shit to Ben in a straight up fight and bloodlusted brainwashed Rulk stalemated Fantastic Four for 3 hours before KOing Torch and Thing, and only briefly and without causing any injuries. Ben alone could go h2h with any one of them for a prolonged time period, and neither would tag Human Torch if the later isn't jobbing (Vision and Tony too, perhaps). And I'm sure they won't be able to one-shot max density Vision either.

And if we're bringing up who whooped who, Rulk was one-shot by Kree Sentries and humiliated by Wonder Man (while, in comparison, Ben tanked shots from Kree Sentries in the same issue and KOed ionic Wonder Man while not even going all out).

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#23 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:
@risk0608 said:

@jacthripper: A morals off Rulk and Colossus could one-shot any individual on the team. Rulk has taken the full brunt of the Bleeding Edge before. And Colossus is even more durable than him. Vision got whopped by a Morals Off She-Hulk. And yes he did phase through her chest (Avengers Red Zone 2003).

Bullshit. Colossonaut has already failed to do shit to Ben in a straight up fight and bloodlusted brainwashed Rulk stalemated Fantastic Four for 3 hours before KOing Torch and Thing, and only briefly and without causing any injuries. Ben alone could go h2h with any one of them for a prolonged time period, and neither would tag Human Torch if the later isn't jobbing (Vision and Tony too, perhaps). And I'm sure they won't be able to one-shot max density Vision either.

And if we're bringing up who whooped who, Rulk was one-shot by Kree Sentries and humiliated by Wonder Man (while, in comparison, Ben tanked shots from Kree Sentries in the same issue and KOed ionic Wonder Man while not even going all out).

Juggernaut Colossus actually beat Thing in Avengers VS X-Men. Regular Colossus and Thing are about equals. Rulk doesn't need to tag them all that much, he needs one good punch and they're done for. Using low-balling doesn't do anything to further this discussion. Rulk took down the original Abomination and fought on par with Thor. Rulk also didn't hit Tony because Rulk said they were on the right side. Thing has never taken base Hulk. Juggs Colossus is Juggernaut + Colossus. It took Hulk amped by Apocalypse to actually stop Regular Juggernaut. So Colossus-naut should be at least as strong as Hulk. Rulk also matched Colossus-naut briefly so they're around equals. Still the Duo are easily winning here by pure power alone

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#24 Edited by Toratorn (6768 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608 said:

Juggernaut Colossus actually beat Thing in Avengers VS X-Men.

Yes, by moving him into airless environment. He couldn't do jack to Ben before that.

Regular Colossus and Thing are about equals.

Not even close. Colossus is one of the most disappointing bricks ever. He is supposedly the physically strongest X-Men, yet he got his ass kicked by Iron Fist, Luke Cage and a Doombot, his hits didn't even scratch Ronan or Sasquatch, he struggled greatly with Gargan Venom, struggled with inhuman Gorgon, was dropped by Iron Man in a single blast, one-shot by Wrecker so hard he went comatose, struggled with War Machine, couldn't last a round against Champion and his clone was incinerated by Human Torch outright. The strongest opponent Colossus ever fought was Red Hulk,

Rulk doesn't need to tag them all that much, he needs one good punch and they're done for.

Bullshit. Ben has already tanked hits from brainwashed Rulk on two separate occasions.

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And on the first occasion Rulk fought Ben and the rest of FF for 3 goddamn hours. That's plenty of opportunities to hit Ben. And yet Rulk only KOed him 3 hours after the fight has started. So he isn't one shotting shit, and neither is he tagging Torch unless the later stands in one place like an idiot.

Using low-balling doesn't do anything to further this discussion.

>says that Rulk one-shots anyone without bringing any proof of that and denying Rulk explicitly failing to one-shot Thing

>calls me out on lowballing

Rulk took down the original Abomination

So did Wonder Man. And She-Hulk. And once again, Ben faired much better than Abomination against Rulk who was brainwashed and not holding back. 3 hours of fighting and he didn't even have injuries, while Abomination got his skull shattered after less time of fighting.

and fought on par with Thor.

Ben was beating the shit out of Thor once when he was mind-controlled. And straight up KOed Thor with a sucker punch on another occasion.

Rulk also didn't hit Tony because Rulk said they were on the right side.

This is relevant why? Tony has plenty of durability feats suggesting that Rulk won't one-shot him anytime soon. If he even manages to tag him in the first place.

Thing has never taken base Hulk.

If by "taken" you mean "beat fair and square", then no, he didn't. If by "taken" you mean "took on", then you're dead wrong, because Ben has fought Savage Hulk many times and faired well, even when Hulk tried to kill him, was mindcontrolled into killing him or was just plain pissed off. And that's not mentioning Ben stomping Grey Hulk and stalemating Professor Hulk.

Juggs Colossus is Juggernaut + Colossus.

Too bad that even with so much power on his hands he still couldn't do anything to Ben without resorting to deprieving him of oxygen.

It took Hulk amped by Apocalypse to actually stop Regular Juggernaut.

And speaking of people who stopped the Juggernaut...

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So Colossus-naut should be at least as strong as Hulk.

That's not how it works. Colossonaut needs his own feats, and by feats he is either equal or superior to Rulk. And even then he couldn't beat Ben fair and square.

Rulk also matched Colossus-naut briefly so they're around equals.

Key word: briefly. Rulk got stalemated by Colossus in base for a whole issue.

Still the Duo are easily winning here by pure power alone

Except that Rulk has an easily exploitable weakness (overheating), neither of them are beating Ben quickly enough unless they gang up on him, and neither of them would be able to tag Iron Man or Torch if the two wouldn't want to get tagged. That and neither of them have a counter for Vision's phasing. There's no "easy win" here and they will most likely lose.

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#25 Edited by Sovngarde (536 posts) - - Show Bio

Unstoppable Colossus solos.

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#26 Posted by HellionVulcan (7141 posts) - - Show Bio

No one on team 1 has the means to stop Colossonaut even more so if he gets bloodlusted equals demonic mode which will wreck everyone including Rulk.

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#27 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4483 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: That was Ionic Wonder Man , who also one shotted Thor , so idk why it is bad for Rulk.

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#28 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4483 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 Stomp

Colossus could Solo

This. Rulk could beat most of this team as well.

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#29 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:Read the fight from AvX again. Ben was doing nothing and even threw himself as Colossus-naut and what exactly did it do? Nothing. It didn't even move him. It was a great fight but Ben's only real hit was his final before Colossus KOed him:

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Rulk doesn't one-shot Ben. If I said that, I didn't mean to say that. He one-shots everyone else though and so does Colossus-naut seeing as it's "blood-lusted". Torch has been KO'ed by weaker Heavy Hitters:

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And don't lie dude, Ben never stopped Juggernaut in his charge.

Don't call me out for low-balling then using Piotr's low-showings. Post them in their context then. Both Ben and base Piotr have fought Juggernaut and both have given him a good even fight (although eventually being overpowered, it's funny because you showed Juggs punching Ben to the ground, and Ben tripping him up). Colossus-naut > Both base Juggs and base Piotr. So logically, he should be more powerful than Ben too. Also, the feat you showed was Rulk throwing Ben. In Hulk 19#, Rulk took multiple hits including a clean haymaker from an angry Ben and didn't KO him. In fact, (although it may be hyperbole), he said he could have broken Thing's back and neck.

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Colossus-naut does have feats. He tanked multiple direct hits from Ben to the face no-selling them as we saw in AvX.

Now onto the other two, Tony Stark in a much more recent armor in Civil War II has been taken down by Captain Marvel and Vision was stomped by a Blood-lusted She-Hulk, who are both not as powerful as Peak Blood-Lusted Red Hulk and Colossus-naut proving they don't have the durability to take down two unhinged Powerhouses. Albeit She-Hulk was infected by a virus. And while neither have Carol's speed, it shows that a few huge hits from either one them in an blood-lusted state would at least cripple Tony permanently from the fight:

Civil War II Issue #8 (2017)

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Avengers Issue #68 (1998)

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Thor is consistently stronger than Ben in terms of feats and has consistently fought on par with Hulk

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#30 Edited by Toratorn (6768 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608 said:

Read the fight from AvX again. Ben was doing nothing and even threw himself as Colossus-naut and what exactly did it do? Nothing. It didn't even move him. It was a great fight but Ben's only real hit was his final before Colossus KOed him:

I know exactly how their fight went. And you're right, Ben was not doing anything to Colossonaut (at least initially). But you're ignoring the fact that neither was Colossonaut doing anything to Ben except for ragdolling him around. While Ben was pushed into corner, however, he at least managed to punch Colossonaut's helmet apart. Colossus couldn't do shit to Ben without deprieving him of oxygen.

Rulk doesn't one-shot Ben. If I said that, I didn't mean to say that.

Alright.

He one-shots everyone else though and so does Colossus-naut seeing as it's "blood-lusted" Torch has been KO'ed by weaker Heavy Hitters:

I'll adress Vision and Iron Man later. As for Human Torch... The Lyra showing is a low end. Torch has dozens of feats of not being KOed by attacks from foes close in power or more powerful than Lyra, including thunderclaps from stronger Hulks. Case in point.

Gets hit right in the face by brainwashed Namor (FF vol.3 #42) and is fine the very next page.

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Punched by Namor again and is fine, from FF vol. 1 #147:

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Punched by Namor again, from FF vol.1 #4 (he is not even flamed on here too).

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Collision with Namor that stuns them both, but Torch is otherwise fine (Stange Tales #107):

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Gets hit head-on by Dragon Man android replica (FF vol.1 #100). For the record, all the replicas in the issue were said to have the same powers as originals.

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Combined attack from Nova, Namorita and Firestar, no sold completely (FF vol.1 #356).

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Point-blank blast from Blastaar, and he is still conscious (FF vol.4 #6):

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Blasted by Blastaar once again, from FF vol.1 #318:

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Blast from Annihilus (FF vol.1 #109). Exactly what I was talking about above - flames doused, but he is otherwise fine:

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Blasted by Annihilus once again (FF vol.1 #141), same result as above:

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Annihilus hits him with his wings and, once again, his flames are doused, but he is unhurt (Fantastic Four Foes #2):

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Gets punched by Annihilus in the face and is fine (FF vol.1 #600):

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One thing that should be noted, even though Annihilus was separated from Cosmic Rod in the latest twoinstancies, it was established back in FF vol.3 #19 that Annihilus doesn't really on Cosmic Rod anymore and housed that power even while separated from it:

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Gets hit by the Multiple Man (Giant-Size Fantastic Four #4) and, while his flames are doused, is still conscious.

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It should be noted that that was Multiple Man's first appearance, in which he had a suit that was leeching energy from the city and making him superstrong and supertough. Earlier in this issue, several clones of Madrox beat the shit out of Thing so hard he was knocked out for 6.5 hours (and he got even stronger afterwards):

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I mentioned this above, gets hit and then blasted by Skrull-X, robot with all powers of Super-Skrull, and is fine (FF vol.1 #214, reverse order):

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Hit from Gladiator (while Gladiator is generally unimpressive, in that very issue he two-shot Thing), FF vol.1 #249:

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Blindsided by Storm doppelganger's lightning and recovers near instantly (FF vol.1 #370):

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Hit by Mahkizmo, a guy who can go h2h with Thing (FF vol.1 #151), and is fine:

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Again, in the very next issue:

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And again in the issue after that:

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Repeated blasts from a Doombot (FF vol.1 #536 or 537):

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Blast from Doom (FF vol.1 #157):

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A hit from giant Doombot (Fantastic Four 1234 #4):

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No-sells a hit from Sandman, FF vol.1 Annual #14 (Sandman was able to trade blows with Thing back then):

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Blasts from Ultron drones (FF vol.4 #5AU):

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Gets slammed into a wall by Technotroid, a being strong enough to hurt Thing, and then backhanded by it (Silver Surfer #95):

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Direct hit from Terminus, FF vol.3 #4:

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Hunger, a being strong enough to give Thing trouble, backhands him, and he is only stunned (FF vol.1 #381):

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In the same issue Hunger blasted him with same blasts that hurt Ben and destroyed Doom's armour, and he came back after several pages:

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Thunderclaps from Savage Hulk (Fantastic Four vol.1 #25) and alternate Professor Hulk (FF Annual 2001):

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Thunderclaps from Professor Hulk, amped Professor Hulk and Savage Hulk (Fantastic Four vol.1 #374, #533 and #167):

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Over-Mind, a guy who was stronger than Thing, tears apart Sue's forcefields with Ben and Johnny's bodies (FF vol.1 #116):

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Johnny is not even flamed off here and, as evidenced by the fact that he and Ben were fighting him for most of the issue, not KOed. In the same issue he was also hit by Over-Mind's blasts and wasn't KOed. Same blasts hurt Thing and damaged Doom's armor in the same issue, as well as hurt Hyperion and Hulk in Defenders #113.

Hits from Arkon (Fantastic Four vol.1 #163):

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Hit from Crusader, Quantum Bands weilder who could go toe to toe with Thing (FF vol.1 #165):

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Tanks a hit from Iron Man's Subterranean Armor (Iron Man #12 (vol.4 IIRC)):

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Terrax's terrakinetic attacks (Fantastic Four #259-260):

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Tanks Skaar throwing Thing at him and Skaar bludgeoning him with girder (Planet Skaar Prologue; Incredible Hulk #605):

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Gets hit by by CAP, a robot who was strong enough to effortlessly punch through a cascade of Invisible Woman's forcefields and off-paneled a team of Earth's strongest heroes, and is still conscious (Fantastic Four #556):

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Point is, for someone who accuses me of lowballing, you do your fair share of lowballing yourself. Not only is Human Torch much more durable than you make him to be, but it can also be argued that he won't be one-shot by Rulk or Colossus, or if he would be, he won't be out for long enough and would be able to recover pretty quickly (unless his teammates all manage to get KOed in that time frame). And that's, once again, assuming they manage to tag Torch in the first place. Because, you know, he can fly and maneuver at hypersonic speeds and their ranged capabilities are pretty limited.

And don't lie dude, Ben never stopped Juggernaut in his charge.

Juggernaut was moving, Ben stopped him from moving. What's your problem?

Don't call me out for low-balling then using Piotr's low-showings.

Ironic, considering you just lowballed Torch by posting a low showing and then did the same for both Vision and Iron Man.

Post them in their context then.

I mentioned them just to disprove the notion that Colossus is on the same level with Ben, considering Ben did much better than Colossus against pretty much every relevant opponent, and has much more impressive feats against much stronger characters.

Let's compare Colossus's and Thing's attacks against Ronan. Colossus' hit is no sold completely, Thing's hits hurt Ronan and make him scream in pain:

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X-Men Unlimited #29 vs Annihilators Earthfall #2

Let's compare how both of them took hits from Wrecker. Colossus almost dies from one hit (from Wrecker who is sharing his power with the rest of Wrecking Crew) while Ben tanks a massive amount of blows from Wrecker weilding the full power of Wrecking Crew:

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Secret Wars #5 vs Fantastic Four #355

Let's compare how they fare against Iron Man's repulsors. Colossus is dropped from a single warning shot and needs time to recover, while Ben: tanks a blast from bloodlusted Super-Adaptoid utilizing Iron Man's powers, tanks a blast from Iron Man's experimental armor that went berserk, no sells blasts from Iron Man suit that was hijacked by a skrull that was bent on killing him.

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X-Men Annual #7 vs Marvel Two-In-One #75, Fantastic Four vol.3 #15, Iron Man vol.2 #12

Let's see how Colossus and Thing fare against Cyclops' eye beams at full power. Colossus is hurt and his body is getting damaged, while Ben tanks it with no damage it and walks through it:

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X-Men #106 vs Fantastic Four #28

Against Human Torch's nova blast. Colossus' clone is incinerated by the AoE blast, Ben tanks the concentrated blast and is only down for several seconds:

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FF #368 vs FF #360

I can't be arsed to post scans, but the same goes in their respective fights against Sasquatch - in X-Men #121 Colossus can't even scratch Sasquatch (and vice a versa) and the fight goes nowhere before it's interrupted; in Marvel One-In-Two #83 an exhausted Ben who hasn't rested for days fights Sasquatch for several hours and at the end of the fight Sasquatch is pretty much bargaining for them to stop the fight (because of how badly he is getting his ass kicked) and complains that he hasn't felt so bad since his fight with Hulk. Same goes for their fights with Gorgon: Inhumans vs X-Men #5 - Colossus spends half the issue fighting Gorgon off-panel, and at least one panel we see shows Gorgon hurting Colossus with a punch; Startling Stories: The Thing - Ben casually wrecks and overpowers Gorgon in 2 pages before the fight is interrupted. Against Champion (Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7): Colossus is beaten into unconsciousness in one round without being able to do anything, Ben lasts 3 rounds, breaks Champion's ribs and stays conscious long enough to convince Champion to not destroy the planet. Luke Cage and Iron Fist off-panel Colossus in Secret Wars II and AXIS respectively (don't remember the issues), Ben casually stomps Cage and no sells Iron Fist's chi punch in Marvel Two-In-One #94. And so on and so on.

Both Ben and base Piotr have fought Juggernaut and both have given him a good even fight (although eventually being overpowered, it's funny because you showed Juggs punching Ben to the ground, and Ben tripping him up).

Neither of them gave Juggernaut a good fight. Colossus is always wrecked by Cain in 1 or 2 hits, and Ben was down (even though he stayed conscious afterwards for a while) in 3 hits.

Colossus-naut > Both base Juggs and base Piotr.

Not how it works. Colossonaut's feats don't place him on the same level with Cain's Juggernaut. And even if he was stronger than Cain, he fared infinitely worse against Ben than Cain did (granted, that may also have something to do with Ben getting stronger over time, but still).

So logically, he should be more powerful than Ben too. Also, the feat you showed was Rulk throwing Ben.

Where do you see Rulk throwing Ben, once again? Also, funny how you ignored that Rulk had 3 hours when he most definitely hit Ben and most defintely didn't KO him.

In Hulk 19#, Rulk took multiple hits including a clean haymaker from an angry Ben and didn't KO him. In fact, (although it may be hyperbole), he said he could have broken Thing's back and neck.

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Considering that Rulk fought Ben twice when brainwashed and not holding back, and Ben walked out of these fights with no injuries whatsoever, it's more than safe to say that Rulk was bullshitting.

Colossus-naut does have feats. He tanked multiple direct hits from Ben to the face no-selling them as we saw in AvX.

Yes, and also failed to do any damage to Ben without BFRing him and almost choked on what is basically Ben's skin.

Now onto the other two, Tony Stark in a much more recent armor in Civil War II has been taken down by Captain Marvel and Vision was stomped by a Blood-lusted She-Hulk, who are both not as powerful as Peak Blood-Lusted Red Hulk and Colossus-naut proving they don't have the durability to take down two unhinged Powerhouses. Albeit She-Hulk was infected by a virus. And while neither have Carol's speed, it shows that a few huge hits from either one them in an blood-lusted state would at least cripple Tony permanently from the fight:

That's some extreme hypocrisy from you. You accuse me of lowballing Colossus when you did nothing but lowball Vision, Iron Man and Torch with just one of their respective low showings. Vision took attacks from plenty of people stronger than She-Hulk, including Thing, Wonder Man, Hyperion, Hercules, Count Nefaria, Ultron. Same goes for Iron Man. Not only has he taken hits from people much stronger than Carol (Namor, Hulk, Thor and plenty of others), but Carol's own feats don't place her on the level where she can destroy Iron Man like she did.

Thor is consistently stronger than Ben in terms of feats and has consistently fought on par with Hulk

You do realize that the exact same shit can be said about Thor being stronger than Rulk, right? Which makes you bringing up Thor in the first place make absolutely zero sense.

Thor has also consistently struggled against foes of Fanatstic Four that Ben could fight against and even beat (Blastaar, Annihilus, Darkoth, Super-Skrull), and Ben has fought against plenty of Thor's foes and even beat most of them (Executioner, Enchantress, Bi-Beast, Absorbing Man, Wrecker with full power of Wrecking Crew are the ones he beat, for example). Not to mention Ben's own encounters against Hercules, Eric Masterson's clone and other Thor lvl chararcters.

And going back to Red Hulk... There's this guy called Dragon Man, one of Fantastic Four's old enemies. A guy who is strong enough to evenly trade blows with brainwashed Banner Hulk:

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Incredible Hulk #298

Exchange blows with Hercules (should be noted that he only lost because Herc unknowingly exploited his weakness - extreme temperatures):

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Avengers #42

And survive an encounter against bloodlusted Heroes Reborn Thor:

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FF vol.5 #13-14

He also gave Ben a lot of trouble in classic days, Namor struggled with him greatly, She-Hulk couldn't do anything to him on 2 separate occasions, he tanked a combined assault of Frightful Four and was only breifly knocked down and Nova Corpsmen deemed him too powerful to engage in combat, instead opting to contain him with geavimetric nets. All in all, a very powerful dude with feats comparable to Red Hulk's. Wanna know what modern Ben did to Dragon Man when he was royally pissed off?

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Fantastic Four Foes #1

Food for thought.

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#31 Posted by Noone1996 (11515 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608: There are some things I agree with in your post above, but you got the Vision, Ms. Marvel, and Iron Man part hilariously wrong. When She-Hulk stomped Vision she was so angry and out of character that she was basically amped. In that state, she was able to draw blood from savage Hulk and basically stalemate him for a couple of pages. She one-shotted Captain Britain with a backhand and no-sold the Excalibur sword. Also wrecked Jack of Hearts pretty good too. However, despite all that, Iron Man one-shotted her with a punch. Civil War II was massively inconsistent writing and Carol's base powers are nowhere even remotely near Hulk-Buster levels. Bendis himself admitted that he intended for this armor to be his strongest Hulk-Buster armor to date. It even self-repaired itself. Carol was not amped at all whatsoever and she basically stomped him. Horrible shit tier writing and massively inconsistent with her usual showings against Iron Man armors. Your scaling to make Iron Man and Vision look like crap is extremely flawed.

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#32 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:Not exactly. Colossus won fair and square with a one-shot. It was really only for a few moments they were on the surface of the Moon. To say that Colossus could do nothing, insinuates that he was no-selling, but that is the exact opposite of what happened in the fight. Colossus-naut won in the end, and I don't see it really as a strategic point to take Thing on the surface. Thing was able to contend for a little while, but Colossus did overpower him enough to charge him all the way to the unprotected surface you have to admit that at least.

You keep trying to reiterate the point that Ben has never taken ANY damage whatsoever, and I think we both that's just intellectually biased and dishonest debating. It's like saying Rulk is nothing to Ben, when we all know in fact that both around the same level (which is where we differ in opinions).

Namor is sort of inconsistent. He's fought guys like Hulk and Unstable Sentry and he's been put down by the likes of Superior Spidey, Cap and T'Challa. Shuri has taken multiple hits from Namor and it took him being amped by water in order to actually beat her. But he's also fought guys like Ben before. So to use him as a gauge isn't really saying much really at all. Namor is really more of a mid-tier, not exactly high-tier character though he can contend with them. If you actually showed Human Torch beating Namor then it would have been an up, but otherwise, it's not so impressive.

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It's funny you brought up how well Colossus did against Ronan and how well Ben did against him because the same happened with Gladiator, perhaps maybe even more so in Colossus's favor. You showed Johnny "tanking" a hit from Gladiator but you didn't show it in it's fullest context. In the same issue and the one afterwards, Gladiator actually stomped Ben twice and one-shotted Torch with a blow:

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Now let's look at Colossus vs Gladiator:

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It's a much more even fight by the looks of it and even the dialogue supports that it was a very close fight indeed. It certainly was not a stomp such as was Ben and Johnny's case.

And from my stance, concerning Tony and Vision, they've never beaten Heavy Hitters, they have only ever been able to stalemate them. She-Hulk has torn him apart twice now. Hulk recently embarrased Vision. I think you putting Tony and Vision on the same level as Marvel Top Heavy Hitters is just overestimating their abilities. Carol beating Tony makes sense since both around the same mid-tier level.

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While you have good points regarding base Colossus vs base Thing, this is far from Base Colossus, this is Juggernaut Colossus. You could argue that Ben is superior to base Piotr, but Colossus-naut logically is not. He should be far stronger than both base Piotr and base Ben by a comfortable margin. But going on to say that even Thor is weaker than Ben? Well that's something I up for a debate on. It just makes sense for Colossus-naut to be superior to Ben seeing as in base they should be about equal.

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#33 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Re-read the issue on She-Hulk my guy. She was infected with a virus that simply made her insanely angry. It did not amp her at all. It's blood-lusted, which is the standard of the battle. If you're going to tell me that a blood-lusted Rulk or a blood-lusted Colossus-naut is not capable of doing that same feat then you're mistaken fam.

Well you may have a point, but Tony should be around the same tier as her regardless. It seemed like she stopped holding back. But you probably have a point here

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#34 Posted by Noone1996 (11515 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608: Infected with what virus? She only gets to that state when Jack of Hearts is around her because he lost control of his energy and it began to affect her gamma energies. That's really not the same as "blood-lusted". Even if it was, Jen is clearly stronger while in a "bloodlusted" state and gets stronger the angrier she gets like her cousin. It's not usable to lowball Vision. That's like saying "pfft Thor stalemated Galactus" to lowball but then failing to mention he had the Odin force or Necro sword when he did it. That context matters.

Okay you say she's "around Iron Man's level anyway" but now that you agree and have discarded Civil War 2 where's your evidence?

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#35 Edited by Toratorn (6768 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608said:

Not exactly. Colossus won fair and square with a one-shot.

Are you sure we're talking about the same fight? Because winning by deprieving your opponent of oxygen is far from "fair and square". If Colossonaut was capable of one-shotting Ben on his own, he would do that before, you know, moving him out of Blue Are of the Moon. Hell, he wouldn't even think about relocating Ben into airless environment if he was able to beat him by himself.

It was really only for a few moments they were on the surface of the Moon.

Except we don't know that for sure. One page Piotr is still pushing Ben, the other they are already outside the Blue Area and brawling. All Colossonaut needed to do to win at this point was make Ben open his mouth - all air Ben may have had would rush out from his lungs and he would lose consciousness. Which is exactly what happened.

To say that Colossus could do nothing, insinuates that he was no-selling, but that is the exact opposite of what happened in the fight.

...what? Ben wasn't no selling hits, he was ragdolled around. But that's about it. Colossus couldn't do anything more than that.

Colossus-naut won in the end, and I don't see it really as a strategic point to take Thing on the surface.

Colossus won dirty by moving Ben into extremely unfavourable environment. Saying that he won and trying to paint it as impressive feat is dishonest as hell and ignores everything else that happened in the fight before that moment.

Hell, let's say that instead of Ben getting moved into oxygenless environment, Colossonaut would randomly lose Juggernaut powers mid-fight, leaving him as plain old Colossus and leading to Ben one-shotting him. Would you say in that case that Ben beat Colossonaut fair and square?

Thing was able to contend for a little while, but Colossus did overpower him enough to charge him all the way to the unprotected surface you have to admit that at least.

That has nothing to do with Colossus' strenght. It's all about "Juggernaut is unstoppable" gimmick. If you don't recall, when Colossus just gained Juggernaut's powers, he was able to similarly charge physically more powerful Kuurth, without the latter being able to do anything at all. So moving Ben out of fight this way doesn't speak of Colossus physical superiority.

You keep trying to reiterate the point that Ben has never taken ANY damage whatsoever, and I think we both that's just intellectually biased and dishonest debating.

Oh yeah? Then show me Ben taking damage in that fight. Anything that would indicate he was damaged. Grunts, screams of pain, hurt expressions, blood flowing out of his mouth, Ben struggling to get up after Piotr's hits, anything.

And before you say it, no, rocks falling off Ben doesn't count as damage. Street levelers could chip Ben without hurting him in any way, Namor was able to chip much bigger chunks off him, and sometimes rocks fall off Ben when he simply punches stuff or walks around.

It's like saying Rulk is nothing to Ben, when we all know in fact that both around the same level (which is where we differ in opinions).

Rulk is not nothing to Ben. They are on the same general tier. At least, when he is not going all out. If he isn't holding back like 99% of the time, he is more than capable of beating someone on Rulk's level (something I showed perfectly with Dragon Man example. And no, this isn't a singular occasion of Ben beating someone that powerful when he stops pulling his punches).

Namor is sort of inconsistent. He's fought guys like Hulk and Unstable Sentry and he's been put down by the likes of Superior Spidey, Cap and T'Challa.

Wow, once again you lowball a character after accusing me of lowballing. Double standards much? That and neither of them "put Namor down" without some context.

Shuri has taken multiple hits from Namor and it took him being amped by water in order to actually beat her.

Wow, grasping at straws is real here. Not only this is an armor that, to my knowledge, has no feats besides fighting Namor, so using it to lowball Namor is an example of incredible reaching, but you also act like Namor being hydrated is some sort of amp instead of, you know, just him operating at his full power. You also chose to throw away that part where Namor didn't even want to fight her and definitely didn't go all out (indicated by that page where Namor tells her to stay down and is not particularly happy with prospect of killing her), failed to mention that part where Namor damages the armor with a single hit (on a scan that you posted, lmao) and that part where engineers of said armor explicitly said that she only stood a chance if Namor wasn't fully hydrated. The only reason Shuri gained an uppehand was because she exploited his heat weakness. But right afterwards Namor got himself into water and stomped her like fodder.

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So yeah, your desperate lowball attempt is nothing but omitting context to make Namor look bad. Fact is, Namor had many encounters against heavy hitters, icluding people like Hulk, Thor, Herc, Thing, Black Bolt, Dr. Doom, Griffin, Super-Skrull, Hyperion, Abomination and others where he faired well enough to eclipse the few low ends he has.

But he's also fought guys like Ben before.

Which is a bad showing for Namor why?

So to use him as a gauge isn't really saying much really at all.

Yeah, good thing that there are 20 more scans of Torch not getting KOed by character who are not Namor. All of which you chose to ignore. Top tier debating here mate.

Namor is really more of a mid-tier, not exactly high-tier character though he can contend with them. If you actually showed Human Torch beating Namor then it would have been an up, but otherwise, it's not so impressive.

...are you kidding me or are you just that incapable of keeping up with the argument? Let's recap. You claim that Torch gets one-shot becuase Lyra one-shot him with a thunderclap. I counter this lowball attempt by showing tons of showings of Torch taking hits from beings superior to Lyra (which includes several scans featuring Namor) and not getting KOed. What does Human Torch beating Namor have to do with anything?

You've yet to properly adress any of HT durability feats.

It's funny you brought up how well Colossus did against Ronan and how well Ben did against him because the same happened with Gladiator, perhaps maybe even more so in Colossus's favor. You showed Johnny "tanking" a hit from Gladiator but you didn't show it in it's fullest context. In the same issue and the one afterwards, Gladiator actually stomped Ben twice and one-shotted Torch with a blow:

Oh boy, I knew you were going to bring this up. First thing first, Gladiator doesn't KO Torch with his breath - only his flames are extinguishd, he is clearly conscious when he is falling (based on him having an inner monologue) and he is only KOed by the fall itself (now would be a good time as any to mention that Torch is not as durable in human form as he's in flamed on state, so you can't use that fall as evidence of Torch being a glass cannon either). And second thing is...

Now let's look at Colossus vs Gladiator:

...yes, here it is. The key difference between these two instances? Fantastic Four members encountered Gladiator who in the same issue no sold and contained a blast that could wipe out half the solar system and, by Ben's admission, hit harder than anyone he faced before (which is impressive since Ben was hit by Hulk, Surfer, Black Bolt's Master Blow, Terrax, Annihilus and many other heavyweights before the fight against Gladiator). Gladiator that Colossus fought? He was KOed for several minutes by a building falling on top of him and was so weak he couldn't KO Colossus with his hits, when Colossus was KOed by a collapsing building as well. All of that happened in the same issue and hell, on the scans you posted.

So for all intents and purposes Colossus fought a massively weaker version of Gladiator then the one FF fought. So you can't even use that as a proof of Colossus being better than Ben at anything.

It's a much more even fight by the looks of it and even the dialogue supports that it was a very close fight indeed. It certainly was not a stomp such as was Ben and Johnny's case.

Yes, because Gladiator was portrayed as low mid tier fodder who got stomped by a collapsing building (just like Colossus, lol) when he fought Piotr, but was portrayed as a legitimate high tier when he fought Fantastic Four.

Aside from that, there's only one other instance where Colossus looked better than Ben - in their respective fights against Monster of Badoon. So that leaves us with 1 time when Colossus looked better than Ben vs... 10+ times when Ben looked better than Colossus. And that's not mentioning the fact that Colossus never fought (and never would be able to properly fight) most of people that Ben fought. Namor, Black Bolt, Wonder Man and many others would all embarass Colossus in a slugfest.

And from my stance, concerning Tony and Vision, they've never beaten Heavy Hitters, they have only ever been able to stalemate them.

I'll leave this to @noone1996 since he is much more knowledgeable on Iron Man (and probably Vision) than I am.

But the logic that "X never beat a heavyhitter so he is not a heavyhitter, despite X having dozens of good fights with heavyhitters" is just downright nonsensical.

She-Hulk has torn him apart twice now.

Massively enraged She-Hulk operating above her normal power level, yes. Scans for the second occasion?

Hulk recently embarrased Vision.

Oh yeah, because getting embarassed by same Hulk who embarassed Thor, Herc, Jane, Hulkbuster and Wonder Man is such a low showing for Vision. You do realize that you can make current Hulk fight both teams from this thread at the same time and he would stomp them all anyway, right?

I think you putting Tony and Vision on the same level as Marvel Top Heavy Hitters is just overestimating their abilities. Carol beating Tony makes sense since both around the same mid-tier level.

No it doesn't. Danvers' feats place her nowhere near Iron Man's feats, and her stomping a Hulkbuster is a good example of shitty writing.

While you have good points regarding base Colossus vs base Thing, this is far from Base Colossus, this is Juggernaut Colossus. You could argue that Ben is superior to base Piotr,

There's no argument. Ben is superior to him by far.

but Colossus-naut logically is not. He should be far stronger than both base Piotr and base Ben by a comfortable margin.

Considerably stronger than base Piotr? Yes. Considerably stronger than Ben? No, since we already saw how Colossonaut couldn't damage Ben and needed to suffocate him to pull a win.

But going on to say that even Thor is weaker than Ben? Well that's something I up for a debate on.

I never said that. You brought up that Rulk fought Thor, I brought up Ben's encounters with Thor and his and Thor's mutual foes. Thor and Ben should be roughly on the same level, if their fights against other characters are anything to go by (Thor outperforms Ben against some, like against Hulk, Ben outperforms Thor against some). Inb4 you bring up Thor punching through Angrir.

If you mean that Dragon Man instance I brought up, that was just an example of how much Ben usually holds back and how he should be capable of beating Rulk-lvl opponents if he doesn't hold back. And yes, he does hold back in-character, significantly so. When he didn't hold back, he almost killed Blastaar, stomped Darkoth, one-shot a Doombot that was more powerful than real Doom, tore appart a Hulk robot that was claimed to be "about as strong as original", crushed Namor to death with a bearhug, cracked Champion's ribs, almost killed Ghost Rider, punched through Invisible Woman's forcefields and KOed Super-Adaptoid with combined power of himself, Vision, Iron Man and Mar-Vell. And that's not mentioning opponents of Rulk's tier or above he beat when not going all out,like Absorbing Man, Bi-Beast, Wonder Man, Skurge, Cosmic Hulk, Cho Hulk (it was a double KO, but still), as well as the ones Ben stalemated or otherwise fought and wasn't stomped by (Hercules, Annihilus, Skaar, Ultron, etc.).

It just makes sense for Colossus-naut to be superior to Ben seeing as in base they should be about equal.

No it doesn't, or at least, it doesn't make sense for him to be as massively superior to Ben as you claim, considering that one of your premises (base Piotr ~ Ben) is completely off the mark and that Colossusonaut has already struggled to beat Ben without resorting to cheap tricks.

And you know, just to put an end to "duo winz eazily" bunk, here's Rulk being one-shot by Red Ghost phasing his arm into his chest and squeezing his heart (Hulk #20):

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Vision can and will replicate that with morals off. I'm not sure what's stopping him from doing it to Colossonaut as well, especially considering neither Ross nor Piotr have any counters to phasing.

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#36 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:Both resided in the airless area of the Moon for only a short amount of time, it is little different if the battle took place underwater or whatever. He didn't move him there, he charged at Ben and Ben was unable to stop the charge. If anything, the atmosphere and a weaker gravitational pull would have taken away from of the force from those punches which KO'ed Ben. You're grasping at straws and trying to reason that some-how, by moving him to an air-less environment, it stripped Ben of his super-strength. That's just hilarious. Admit it already that Colossus was clearly the stronger guy in that match. At first you're saying Colossus did jack during most of the fight, then you go on to say he did rag-doll him but not more? Where do you stand? Drop the bias. Piotr was clearly the stronger fighter. If anything, Colossus was the only one hardly shaken in the battle indicated in the art and the dialogue. It's all authorial intent. You're making up assumptions really which have no evidence, such as your argument that they were brawling on the air-less surface for more than a few seconds when the panels clearly show what happened. If the writer meant to put anything else there he would have.

Well 3:24 very clearly shows Ben showing pain. Let's not forget he had to resort to throwing a stone in order to distract Piotr. If it were not so they would've just straight up fought. Most of the fight is basically Piotr giving Ben the one-two.

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This argument that Colossus as Juggernaut charging has nothing to do with physical strength is simply hilarious. Are you seriously stating that Juggernaut's charge has nothing to do with physical strength at all? Are you going to suggest that Piotr turning his skin to steel doesn't augment him either? Or that Hulk getting angrier and angrier is just a gimmick too?

Don't compare Dragon-Man to Rulk, he was getting pummeled in those panels by Thor. If you can show me more conclusive evidence of Thing's abilities without holding back then I might consider the idea. But I still think Rulk is stronger and would beat him in a fight. Rulk already successfully traded blows with an amped-Thing:

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Let's not forget that it actually took the hammer to beat Rulk and he had to BFR Rulk from the fight. In saying this, is Rulk can actually fight an amped-Thing who's empowered with Thor level amps. Then I think it's safe to assume he could probably take Ben in his base without much difficulty besides a good fight. This is in tandem with the scans I showed earlier of Red Hulk's brief scuffle with base Thing earlier (bare in mind: Rulk was not in the mood for a fight and Thing was serious yet Rulk was tanking his hits with little to no fatigue and mentioned he could have killed him if he wanted to).

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I specifically stated that it was not until Namor went into the water to power-up that he won. I was not trying to say that Shuri won, I said she was overpowering him before he (sort of) cheated and jumped into the water. You can argue about this fact all you want but both she and T'Challa in full-gear have been able to grapple with Namor before. And no, I'm not low-balling him at all. You're trying to take my words out of context. You mentioned Namor as being a good gauge that Human Torch can tank a pummeling from a bloodlusted Rulk or Colossus-naut. I stated that he was too inconsistent and therefore unreliable to get a comfortable gauge, especially since we're debating between very similar characters which are particularly close in terms of power-level and strength.

My have never said that Namor was weak, my argument is that Namor is far to inconsistent to be taken seriously. Here's something I just want to put in to show how widely inconsistent Namor is written as a character (sorry could not find the scans): At 3:00 Namor takes on Thor, Cap and Carol. And this is Current Namor btw

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Instead of using more obscure characters, let's look at fights with The Hulk. Rulk has proven to easily contend with Hulk. Ben on the other hand has a much harder time. Both have consistently lost to Bruce (it's just the way things go seeing as Hulk is the flagship "strong" character). Rulk has consistently fought on par with Hulk

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Ben has almost never had the upper-hand on Hulk to my knowledge (you may present you evidence, I'm no expert in either).

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Also regarding Human Torch, you haven't really showed anything that concludes he could take a serious punch from Red Hulk or Colossus-naut. Other than the Annhilus feat perhaps. He was clearly KO'ed, re-read the issues. We come back to him landing on top of the shop and it says a few minutes have past. It's undeniable. But the fact that you're really reaching here is just bad. Show integrity and just be honest. Johnny was very clearly KO'ed in that panel.

Okay now onto the durability feats. The difference between the two Cyclops panels is that Piotr had to tank the unfiltered blast from Cyclops's eyes, whereas Thing took a hit from Cyclops with his visors on. Both struggled, albeit in Piotr more so, but it's expected. He took a hit from Cyclops without the filtering of his visors, whereas The Thing did not. We've seen Piotr tank Cyclops with his visors on before and Cyclops himself has said it couldn't really do much other than "shake him up a little" and the no-sold an optic blast another time

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Oh and that was not Colossus at all that was evaporated by the nova's blast. It was a knock-off. We both know trying to apply that to the real thing is just silly. Do not forget that we're talking solely about base Piotr here. Colossus-naut is superior to him.

Onto, the issue with Gladiator. What in the world are you talking about? Where in the world are you getting the evidence that Gladiator was weaker in Piotr's fight? Piotr fought him fair and square and it as a result of their battle the structure fell on them. It's funny you're calling me out for low-balling when you're suggesting both Gladiator and Piotr were building level in their fight. First off, you have no evidence to support this claim. And second off, you're being clearly biased.

"Ben is superior to him by far". Says who? You can argue by a little but by far? You're just being deliberately dishonest here.

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#37 Posted by Risk0608 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

Granted in the issue where Rulk was taken out by phasing, he had just finished fighting the X-Men and some super monkeys which were enough to give him trouble. Also it wasn't Blood-lusted Rulk. He would have been out of his mind

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#38 Posted by APEX_pretador (19723 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting debates from both sides

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#39 Posted by APEX_pretador (19723 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting debates from both sides

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#40 Edited by Toratorn (6768 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608:

Dammit, can you please upload images in small sizes? It's a huge pain in the ass to scroll through the whole page.

Both resided in the airless area of the Moon for only a short amount of time, it is little different if the battle took place underwater or whatever.

Yeah, except it is completely different from a fight underwater or "whatever". They fought in vacuum. Just opening your mouth in vacuum will lead to all the air in your lungs to be sucked out and, as a result, to a loss of consciousness. Underwater that's not a problem:

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...for whatever reason. So all Colossonaut did with his punch was make Ben open his mouth, which lead to KO.

He didn't move him there, he charged at Ben and Ben was unable to stop the charge.

Yes. Because of, you know, "Juggernaut is unstoppable" crap. More specifically, the "Cyttorak feeds him infinite kinetic energy when he charges" crap.

If anything, the atmosphere and a weaker gravitational pull would have taken away from of the force from those punches which KO'ed Ben.

Hypocritical of you to accuse me of grasping at straws while writing this crap.

You're grasping at straws and trying to reason that some-how, by moving him to an air-less environment, it stripped Ben of his super-strength.

Are you having trouble reading my posts or something? Point me to the part of my post where I said that lack of air stripped Ben of his superstrength. Hell, the fact that he punched through Piotr's helmet after he was moved there contradicts this whole notion outright. But I guess you're too busy putting words in my mouth instead of actually countering my points?

That's just hilarious.

Not as hilarious as your lack of reading comprehension.

Admit it already that Colossus was clearly the stronger guy in that match. At first you're saying Colossus did jack during most of the fight, then you go on to say he did rag-doll him but not more? Where do you stand? Drop the bias. Piotr was clearly the stronger fighter.

Yeah, so much stronger that he couldn't even make Ben grunt with his hits and needed to asphyxicate him to win. All he did was knock Ben around without causing any damage whatsoever. You could argue that Colossus' durability was far above Ben's striking... and even that won't be true, seeing how Ben punched his helmet apart when he was pushed into corner. How many hits like that would Colossonaut be able take if Ben didn't suffocate right afterwards? Especially if he were to be hit in his helmetless head. Remember how it didn't take Rulk many hits to KO Colossonaut once his helmet was off?

If anything, Colossus was the only one hardly shaken in the battle indicated in the art and the dialogue. It's all authorial intent. You're making up assumptions really which have no evidence, such as your argument that they were brawling on the air-less surface for more than a few seconds when the panels clearly show what happened. If the writer meant to put anything else there he would have.

Repeating that doesn't make it more true. If there were no airless environment, Colossus would just continue punching Ben for hours with no result until Ben tires out. Or until Ben desides to stop screwing around, punches his helmet off and then starts hitting Piotr without holding back until he goes down.

Well 3:24 very clearly shows Ben showing pain.

Yes, at the exact moment where the air rushed out of his lungs and he suffocated. Good job. Now show me where Colossonaut causes Ben pain.

Let's not forget he had to resort to throwing a stone in order to distract Piotr.

Your point being?...

If it were not so they would've just straight up fought. Most of the fight is basically Piotr giving Ben the one-two.

Are you trying to make a point for me? Because that's exactly what I said - if Colossonaut could beat Ben on his own, he would have just fought with him straight up and didn't resort to suffocation tactic.

This argument that Colossus as Juggernaut charging has nothing to do with physical strength is simply hilarious. Are you seriously stating that Juggernaut's charge has nothing to do with physical strength at all?

As we have established already, yes. Just as it was established by Colossus himself when he fought Kuurth - who, by Piotr's own admission, was stronger, faster and more powerful than him in every way but one.

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Do your research next time, alright?

Are you going to suggest that Piotr turning his skin to steel doesn't augment him either? Or that Hulk getting angrier and angrier is just a gimmick too?

No, because this is obviously not true. Unlike the "Juggernaut is unstoppable" crap.

Don't compare Dragon-Man to Rulk,

I will, since his feats are comparable to Rulk's.

he was getting pummeled in those panels by Thor.

He fought and was hit by a bloodlusted Thor and the only damage he sustained was a little patch of skin being peeled off on his head. He even wanted to fight him once again. Stop trying to lowball the feat.

If you can show me more conclusive evidence of Thing's abilities without holding back then I might consider the idea. But I still think Rulk is stronger and would beat him in a fight.

I already mentioned what Ben is capable of when not pulling his punches, along with shit he did when he wasn't going all out.

When he didn't hold back, he almost killed Blastaar, stomped Darkoth, one-shot a Doombot that was more powerful than real Doom, tore appart a Hulk robot that was claimed to be "about as strong as original", crushed Namor to death with a bearhug, cracked Champion's ribs, almost killed Ghost Rider, punched through Invisible Woman's forcefields and KOed Super-Adaptoid with combined power of himself, Vision, Iron Man and Mar-Vell. And that's not mentioning opponents of Rulk's tier or above he beat when not going all out,like Absorbing Man, Bi-Beast, Wonder Man, Skurge, Cosmic Hulk, Cho Hulk (it was a double KO, but still), as well as the ones Ben stalemated or otherwise fought and wasn't stomped by (Hercules, Annihilus, Skaar, Ultron, etc.).

... but you conviniently ignored all of that. If you want scans, here they are:

Ben almost killing Blastaar:

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Startling Stories: The Thing

Same Blastaar could go h2h with Thor on two separate occasions (Thor #270 and Avengers #310).

Ben fights Darkoth and then stomps him after he stops holding back (before collapsing from poison):

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Fantastic Four #142-143

This is Darkoth, for the record:

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Thor #325

One-shots a Doombot more powerful than real Doom after realizing he doesn't have to hold back:

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Fantastic Four #246

Tears apart Arcade's Hulk robot (that, by Arcade's claims, was about as strong as the original) once he gets pissed off:

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Thing vol.2 #2

And that's not even the first time Ben did something like that, as he destroyed a Cosmic Hulk robot back in Hulk #350:

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Crushing Namor to death (while Namor suffocates him, resulting in mutual death):

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Captain America vol.2 #13

Shatters Champion's ribs:

Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7
Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7

Which is impressive because this shit didn't shatter them:

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Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7, Hulk vs Thor: Champions of the Universe #6

And Ben wasn't even at his best during the fight with Champion:

Marvel Two-In-One #96
Marvel Two-In-One #96

Almost kills Ghost Rider when he stops holding back (Ghost Rider even says that Ben could have finished him if he didn't stop):

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Marvel Two-In-One #80

Breaks through Invisible Woman's forcefields while brainwashed:

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Fantastic Four #266

KOes Super-Adaptoid with powers of himself, Vision, Iron Man and Mar-Vell despite being in excruciating pain:

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Marvel Two-In-One #75

Proof that he had Mar-Vell's and Iron Man's powers:

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As for the stuff he did without going all out...

KOs Bi-Beast:

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Thing vol.2 #8

Tanks several hits from adamantium Absorbing Man and trades blows with him:

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Black Panther #12

And later KOs the same Absorbing Man:

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Doomwar #5-6

Wrecks ionic Wonder Man off-panel:

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Fantastic Four vol.3 #27

Double KO with Cho Hulk:

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Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #14

Tanks a beatdown from Skaar for 45 seconds with no damage:

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Planet Skaar Prologue

Trades blows with Hercules, who says that Ben is a worthy opponent and that he would like to fight him again:

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Thing vol.2 #7

Trades blows equally with Hercules once again, the fight is interrupted:

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Fantastic Four Annual #25

Stalemates Ultron before the latter uses brainwashing:

Marvel Two-In-One #92
Marvel Two-In-One #92

Rulk already successfully traded blows with an amped-Thing:

Oh boy, of course you were going to bring this up.

Let's not forget that it actually took the hammer to beat Rulk and he had to BFR Rulk from the fight. In saying this, is Rulk can actually fight an amped-Thing who's empowered with Thor level amps. Then I think it's safe to assume he could probably take Ben in his base without much difficulty besides a good fight.

Let's not forget the fact that Rulk COULDN'T DO SHIT to Angrir. All his strikes were no sold and Angrir was completely undamaged. Ross, on the other hand, was spitting blood after every hit, had his face turned into mush, could barely speak and couldn't even stand up from the beating Angrir gave him. The only thing this "fight" showed us is that Angrir stomped Rulk. Rulk performed so poorly it couldn't even be used as evidence of him being able to beat base Ben.

This is in tandem with the scans I showed earlier of Red Hulk's brief scuffle with base Thing earlier (bare in mind: Rulk was not in the mood for a fight and Thing was serious yet Rulk was tanking his hits with little to no fatigue and mentioned he could have killed him if he wanted to).

Being serious =/= not holding back. We have already established that Rulk was full of shit about killing Ben, seeing how he fought Ben twice when brainwashed and not holding back and it didn't cause any injuries. Not to mention other people as strong or outright stronger than Rulk who didn't kill Ben with their attacks.

Not to mention, at the end of the issue Rulk complained that he had to "take a beating from Thing", so it's not like he was no selling his hits anyway.

I specifically stated that it was not until Namor went into the water to power-up that he won.

Yes, because apparently Namor being hydrated is not the norm for him. You took a showing against a featless character where Namor wasn't at his best and tried to pass it off as a low showing for Namor. You couldn't even lowball him right.

I was not trying to say that Shuri won, I said she was overpowering him before he (sort of) cheated and jumped into the water.

She wasn't overpowering shit, Namor tanked all hits while barely fighting back. The only thing she did that could somewhat count as "overpowering" was exploiting his weakness and dehydrating him.

You can argue about this fact all you want but both she and T'Challa in full-gear have been able to grapple with Namor before.

Considering that T'Challa's gear is enough to beat Black Dwarf and survive a hit from Immortal Hulk, I don't see why you're trying to use it as a low end for Namor.

And no, I'm not low-balling him at all. You're trying to take my words out of context.

You ARE lowballing him. Or at least trying to and failing. Just like you tried lowballing Torch, Iron Man and Vision.

You mentioned Namor as being a good gauge that Human Torch can tank a pummeling from a bloodlusted Rulk or Colossus-naut.

No, I mentioned Namor as a good gauge that Lyra one-shotting Torch with a thunderclap is a low end. Your reading comprehension needs some work.

I stated that he was too inconsistent

Based on a couple of poor showings against street levelers that you didn't even post. Wow, such inconsistency.

and therefore unreliable to get a comfortable gauge, especially since we're debating between very similar characters which are particularly close in terms of power-level and strength.

Torch was hit by Namor on 4 separate occasions, that's already enough to prove that Namor is a good gauge.

My have never said that Namor was weak, my argument is that Namor is far to inconsistent to be taken seriously. Here's something I just want to put in to show how widely inconsistent Namor is written as a character (sorry could not find the scans): At 3:00 Namor takes on Thor, Cap and Carol. And this is Current Namor btw

Yes, Namor who is implied to be amped and operating outside of his power level. Good thing Namor hitting Torch happened way before this, right?

Instead of using more obscure characters, let's look at fights with The Hulk. Rulk has proven to easily contend with Hulk. Ben on the other hand has a much harder time. Both have consistently lost to Bruce (it's just the way things go seeing as Hulk is the flagship "strong" character). Rulk has consistently fought on par with Hulk. Ben has almost never had the upper-hand on Hulk to my knowledge (you may present you evidence, I'm no expert in either).

There were at least two fights where Ben and Savage Hulk looked about equal: in Fantastic Four #112 and in Giant-Size Super-Stars.

In FF #112, Hulk wants to kill Ben and Ben doesn't hold back. The fight lasts for a whole issue and they trade blows equally for last two pages of the fight until Ben is distracted, turns his head at the wrong moment and gets KOed:

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In Giant-Size Super-Stars, Ben and Hulk have their minds switched, and they fight for most of the issue - and in fact, Ben seems to have the edge for most of the fight (Hulk's mind in Ben's body, I mean):

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There was also a fight in Hulk #9, where they exchanged a couple of blows before Ben was teleported away (notorious because at one point of the fight Hulk got mind-controlled by a guy who wanted to kill Ben):

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This brief fight in The Rampaging Hulk #5:

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Or this brief fight in Marvel Two-In-One #46:

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Or this brief fight, where Ben seems to have the edge before he starts transforming into human (and he still tanks Hulk's punch when half-transformed), from Fantastic Four #167:

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And then there was an occasion when Ben and Professor Hulk stalemated in arm wrestling, from Incredible Hulk Annual #18:

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And I have already posted the fight against Cho Hulk, who was either as strong or stronger than Savage Hulk. So yeah, Ben was always capable of fighting Hulk (at least before Hulk became Green Scar).

Also regarding Human Torch, you haven't really showed anything that concludes he could take a serious punch from Red Hulk or Colossus-naut. Other than the Annhilus feat perhaps.

Namor, Dragon Man, Blastaar's concussive blasts, Over-Mind, Skrull-X, Technotroid, CAP, Skaar all don't count, right?

He was clearly KO'ed, re-read the issues. We come back to him landing on top of the shop and it says a few minutes have past. It's undeniable. But the fact that you're really reaching here is just bad. Show integrity and just be honest. Johnny was very clearly KO'ed in that panel.

Wow, accusing me of bad reading comprehension. The irony is so real, considering you couldn't even read the scans you posted himself. So let's look at the scan ONCE AGAIN, shall we?

No Caption Provided

PANEL 2: Gladiator blows Johnny's flames out. PANEL 3: Johnny, who is still conscious and fine, observes that Gladiator blew his flames out and Reed is getting ready to catch him. Only when Johnny fell he was KOed.

Okay now onto the durability feats. The difference between the two Cyclops panels is that Piotr had to tank the unfiltered blast from Cyclops's eyes, whereas Thing took a hit from Cyclops with his visors on.

It's the same thing. There's no difference between "no visor" blast and "full power" blast.

Both struggled, albeit in Piotr more so, but it's expected. He took a hit from Cyclops without the filtering of his visors, whereas The Thing did not.

Except that Colossus couldn't even move and was getting damaged, while Ben moved through the beam without any indication he was hurt at all.

We've seen Piotr tank Cyclops with his visors on before and Cyclops himself has said it couldn't really do much other than "shake him up a little" and the no-sold an optic blast another time

High-power blast =/= full power blast. We have no idea how powerful the blast is on the second occasion at all.

Oh and that was not Colossus at all that was evaporated by the nova's blast. It was a knock-off. We both know trying to apply that to the real thing is just silly.

I said that it was a clone in the first place, are you actually blind? And no, the clones in that story were repeatedly shown to be as powerful as originals, so yes, that applies to Colossus himself as well.

Do not forget that we're talking solely about base Piotr here. Colossus-naut is superior to him.

And? My point was that Ben is hilariously above base Colossus, something you failed to counter in any way or form.

Onto, the issue with Gladiator. What in the world are you talking about? Where in the world are you getting the evidence that Gladiator was weaker in Piotr's fight? Piotr fought him fair and square and it as a result of their battle the structure fell on them. It's funny you're calling me out for low-balling when you're suggesting both Gladiator and Piotr were building level in their fight. First off, you have no evidence to support this claim. And second off, you're being clearly biased.

> no evidence

> they were literally stomped by a building and it was said so on-panel

I'll just quote myself and advise you to read your scans before posting them.

@toratorn said:

Especially considering that yes, they both got stomped by a building falling on them:

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In the end, though, it's not they who decide the issue. Rather, it's the ancient, fragile structures around them.

At first, the outcome is in doubt, as shockwaves from skyscraper's collapse thunder across the great crater, to be followed MINUTES LATER BY AN UNNATURAL SILENCE.

SEVERAL MINUTES PASSSED BEFORE GLADIATOR RECOVERED. He was either so goddamn weak that he got KOed by fallen debris and needed minutes to come around, OR he was so goddamn weak he needed several minutes to clear away the rubble that even Spider-Man would effortlessly lift. Pick your poison.

So yeah, both Colossus and Gladiator were wrecked by a building falling on top of them. And they were so weak that they couldn't beat each other while the freaking building could.

"Ben is superior to him by far". Says who?

Ben's much more impressive feats. And Colossus' inferior ones. I mean, look at all the shit I listed above and tell me: can Colossus do even tenth of what Ben did?

You can argue by a little but by far? You're just being deliberately dishonest here.

No, you're just in denial. Show me Colossus tanking hits from bloodlusted Wonder Man, or destroying Cosmic Hulk, or knocking Super-Skrull's teeth out, or stomping Grey Hulk, or tanking a hit from P5 Namor, or taking hits from bloodlusted Savage Hulk, or taking hits or blasts from Annihilus, or breaking Champion's ribs, or wrecking Absorbing Man, or no selling blasts from a crowd of Dr. Dooms. Or, you know, not losing to Luke Cage, for starters.

Granted in the issue where Rulk was taken out by phasing, he had just finished fighting the X-Men and some super monkeys which were enough to give him trouble. Also it wasn't Blood-lusted Rulk. He would have been out of his mind

X-Men barely did anything to him and he wasn't fatigued at all after that.

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X-Men were stomped by Kragoff's apes right afterwards. Ross then fought only one ape and murdered it casually in 2 pages, it didn't give him any "trouble".

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And finally, bloodlust and fatigue have nothing to do with resisting your heart being crushed by phasing. So yeah, Vision still one-shots Rulk.