Iron Man vs Darth Vader

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reikai

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@noone1996: He has literally tried to pull the "transitive property" card. This is all his argument is right here.

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Noone1996

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@reikai said:

@noone1996: He has literally tried to pull the "transitive property" card. This is all his argument is right here.

But dude, the Star Warsverse is WAY more consistent than Marvel! That's why ABC logic works. >.>

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#103  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996

Just because you misunderstood the opinion of ONE editor from Marvel, that doesn't mean that this is some sort of established Commandment in battle forum debates. The fact that you are so desperately arguing this point just shows the level of desperation you have.

Just because you purposely misunderstood the excerpt I provided, and ignored that Tom Brevoort was just using that as random example for the question of whether the transitive property is applied in Marvel does change its meaning into something entirely different. Tom Brevoort doesn't even specify how they were beaten. Just that fights, and victories can't be taken at face value and that the transitive property does not apply in Marvel.

The gravitational anomaly is similar enough to TK and the force that none of what you say about "magic", which isn't backed up by any CONCRETE confirmations, is relevant. You are the poster child for irony and hypcrisy. Calling me out for using ABC logic and no-limits fallacies while implying and using them yourself. Since the force doesn't exist in any other universe, I guess no outside universe can truly resist it can they? Since they've never encountered anything quite as unique? No matter what feats of resistance they have against TK?

Your dismissal of it here requires you to have little to no knowledge about Star Wars, and the way the force works. It is explicitly something that doubles as the after-life, has influence over souls, and the fate of the entire galaxy. As I already noted there is sith sorcery based on the use of the force.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_magic

This is common knowledge you can find by simply using google, or any sort of search engine. You claim irony, and hypocrisy on my side of the argument when you started this on the first page complaining about no-limit fallacies by using a no-limit fallacy for Iron Man. I do not even know how you can be this lacking self-awareness. As I already noted it is case by case basis, and you can't judge all franchises with the same scrutiny as their mediums often times differ in execution. Leland Chee does not note that transitive property is unusable in Star Wars, and Tom Brevoort only has a say in Marvel as far as these things go.

Again... Because ONE editor made a vague statement about it? That means it just does not exist at all? Period? Lmfao.

Vague my glorious golden buttocks. He outright notes that the transitive property is never applied with super heroes.

Brevoort said that ABC logic doesn't work when you use it by saying, "Iron Man > Molecule Man because Tony beat him once in a battle of will". He was pointing out that INAPPROPRIATE use of the transitive property is what shouldn't be used. If I posted a feat of Thor busting a planet, does that make the feat irrelevant? He can't one-shot Darth Vader because "herp teh transuhteeve propurtee not work".

Tom Brevoort said that the transitive property doesn't work at all, and is never applied in any situation regardless of who it is or the circumstances of it. He never even specifies the methods, or how it is done. Just the fact these sorts of ridiculous mismatches happen in comic books, and that they don't make character any more than we actually see that they are capable of. You are once again misunderstanding what the transitive property is even talking about. It is talking about fights against other individuals. It is not talking about individuals instances, or achievements that have nothing to do with them. I never once stated Thor couldn't defeat Darth Vader, and you are once again misunderstanding my argument.

The straw man is your bread, and butter.

That's one thing we can agree on. However, you don't just completely ignore every single feat ever performed because it can be inconsistent at times. You don't just completely shrug off ABC logic. You carefully examine what is and isn't consistent and use them based on that. Spider-Man defeating Firelord is inconsistent for his power level so people ignore that feat. Same thing when he fodderized Iron Man.

I am not ignoring individuals instances, and showings. I am ignoring fights because they are notoriously inconsistent, even in comic books, which are inconsistent as is. What we have seen that is consistent with Iron Man is not someone who is faster than light, and can destroy planets. Nor do we have any instances outside of the transitive property that show Iron Man fighting at faster than light speeds, or destroying a planet under his own ability.

You have already proven that you are going to be irrational about any and all feats I post, so what's the point of wasting my time uploading more images?

Now you're attacking my character, and my intentions instead of providing evidence due to the lack thereof. As I already noted I am perfectly open to taking any evidence so long as it doesn't fall under the transitive property. As Marvel, unlike other franchises, is not reliable regarding it.

Tony has CONSISTENTLY tanked hits from high tier characters. The amount of force that they can dish out is incredible. Count Nefaria, Hercules, Thor, Hulk, Loki, Grey Gargoyle, Wonder Man, Ultron, Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, MODOK, Thing, Hulk-Buster armors, etc. RARELY does he ever get one-shotted by characters like these.

Batman has CONSISTENTLY tanked hits from the likes of characters who can smash planets. Deathstroke has CONSISTENTLY held his own against the Flash. Squirrel Girl has NEVER lost a fight against the heralds she have dominated with laughable ease. Spiderman has routinely HELD HIS OWN against heralds such as Firelord, and Silver Surfer.

It doesn't change the fact this doesn't make sense.

Secondly, I NEVER said that Hulk couldn't break Iron Man's armor. I said that he's failed to. It's a vague and open ended statement and I admit that I should have been more specific about what I meant. I NEVER said he would try and try and just fail or give up after awhile. He has grabbed and attempted to crush Tony's helmet several times and he struggled to damage it after trying for several seconds. Could he do it after awhile? Absolutely, but resisting his grip for even 30 seconds is impressive. FAR more impressive than ANYTHING Vader can do.

Then why did you even bring it up if by your own admission the Hulk could break through Iron Man's armor? That defeats the purpose of why you thought it was even relevant. If the Hulk could break it then it's not the instance of durability you are looking for. Ignoring, once more, that this is incorporating the transitive property into this argument. When as I have already noted comic books are notorious regarding this, and how they fail in setting up matches that make sense. By what we have seen, and what is consistent Iron Man should have simply had his head crushed.

Your underselling of feats is just ridiculous. "Give me an example that doesn't involve ABC logic". Do you hear yourself? That is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read. If I show you Iron Man's armor withstanding black hole pressures and I apply that here, that's STILL USING THE TRANSITIVE PROPERTY!!!! You are lazily shrugging off and ignoring Iron Man's feats by picking on the transitive property which is literally the ONLY WAY YOU CAN COMPARE FEATS OR ARGUE IN A BATTLE FORUM. Lmfao.

No, it isn't. When Tom Brevoort was referring to the transitive property it is referring to confrontations against other characters. The question is someone asking whether the Sentry is more powerful than Molecule Man because he outright defeated him no strings attached, and no excuses involved. Tom Brevoort notes that this falls under the transitive property he is talking about. As in direct fights, and showings over other characters which involved defeating them outright instead of using any preparation or underhanded tactics.

If you provided a black hole instance I would accept it. As it doesn't fall under the transitive property we are talking about here.

Since a black hole is not a character.

Star Wars can use ABC logic because it's more consistent than Marvel? Right. So why is it that Vader tanked 43 teratons worth of energy with lightning, but while he was Anakin Skywalker he got taken out EFFORTLESSLY by Count Dooku's lightning in the movies. Now, this is the part where you'll say, "HERP WE TALKING BOUT COMICS AND EU VERSHONS! NOT MOVEES!" But it's all canon, right? So that's still an example of inconsistency. The fact that the original characters from the movies are written at a WAY weaker power level than the comics alone proves how inconsistent the Star Wars verse truly is. Especially when the movies, comics, and novels all mix together as canon.

No, this would be the part where I would note that Darth Vader was much weaker then when Count Dooku defeated him. I would then note that Count Dooku is one of the most dangerous Sith Lords out there, and one of the few who could engage in a battle with Yoda. Then I would note how Count Dooku worked directly beneath Darth Sidious, and one of his most useful pawns. Whose status is supported by accolades, and fights which show his prowess. In Star Wars, where Leland Chee, has made no statements regarding the transitive property or anything along those lines. Which Tom Brevoort has no sway or say over as he does not handle its canon. Nor anything of relevance that I brought up from it.

Either way, again, you don't just straight up ignore ALL feats in an entire fictional universe because things can be inconsistent at times! That's absolutely ridiculous!

These are not feats. They are instances of you abusing the transitive property in a franchise notorious for their unreliability regarding this, and which have been outright dismissed as usable.

You look at what's consistent and inconsistent and ignore the bad feats and keep the good ones.

And Iron Man is consistently not faster than light, and consistently not capable of destroying planets on the spot.

Iron Man once brought Thanos to his knees with his repulsors. That was ONE time. Meanwhile, Thanos has basically no-sold energy blasts from Silver Surfer, Odin, Jack of Hearts, Thor, etc. so Iron Man knocking Thanos down with his energy projection, which is whimpy in comparison to heralds and Skyfathers, IS INCONSISTENT AND BAD WRITING! You don't just ignore everything. You have to carefully examine feats. This is just like those fools who think that all classic feats should be shrugged off because things were sometimes goofy back then. It's not productive because not everything was bad writing or inconsistent back then.

I do not ignore everything. I acknowledged when Iron Man handled that mountain, and when he was able to counteract an earthquake. You are the one dismissing everything I have brought up. As if I have some sort of double standard. When Marvel is vastly different, and treated differently than most franchises as a result. It similar with other large comic book companies. The transitive property is rarely reliable in them, and using instances of it instead of individual feats outside of fights should be done with the utmost caution. Otherwise, you end up getting things such as faster than light, and planet destroying Batman. As well as similarly powerful Deathstroke, and a far more powerful Squirrel Girl.

No I didn't. I used Graviton and Jean Grey as the standard. If you think Vader is above them, then that's your delusion.

Yes, you did in the first page. Then you used an example of Iron Man defending against Jean Grey's psionics as she was the Phoenix, and ignored your own standards regarding consistency. If you think Iron Man is faster than light, and can destroy planets that's your delusion.

...but then he goes on to give SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of why transitive property shouldn't be used. You can't just ignore the examples he used. I'm not using the transitive property in that way.

Once again you are ignoring the question Tom Brevoort answered, and what they were talking about. They were referring to when the Sentry outright DISINTEGRATED Molecule Man, and that direct fights with no strings attached are not reliable.

What are you talking about? Of course you can use that kind of logic as long as it makes sense. If it's proven to be inconsistent or ridiculous (like female Thor beating up Odin) then we simply ignore it. If Thor one-shotted Abomination would it be unreasonable to assume that he could one-shot Spider-Man? That's the transitive property and it actually works. You are not only shrugging off ALL pieces of ABC logic, but then when you backtrack and say it works sometimes you basically just pick and choose.

The question that Tom Brevoort answered to begin with, and why Tom Brevoort was not referring to any sort of preparation but a straight up direct confrontation. That doesn't involved any clauses, or excuses. We know Thor would one-shot Spiderman because he has feats under his belt that show that he has the strength, and speed necessary to splatter Spiderman. Which doesn't involved relying on fights against other characters. I am talking individual showings, and instances. Such as the hypothetical black example you brought up? That you thought I would ignore?

You are just lying now by saying "the transitive property has NEVER been applied to superheroes in Marvel". Just off the top of my head, Greg Pak used it to describe what happened in the World War Hulk body count:

As noted by Tom Brevoort it hasn't been, and the transitive property is not talking about things inside of comic books. It is about how we take things outside of the plot and story, and apply them seriously. What you provided was not an author or editor statement. It was something said in a comic book noting past events, and fights the Hulk was a part of. Which is not the same thing. It simply making note of previous events that have happened. Which isn't reliable in regards to the Sentry. As the Sentry should have been able to easily defeat the Hulk but he didn't because WWH needed its cash grab.

...right but there's context for those examples he brought up. You can't just ignore that. I mean if the transitive property is completely useless in Marvel then does this not work?

Thor > Spider-Man

Hulk > Captain America

I never said that Thor wasn't more powerful than Spiderman, and that the Hulk wasn't more powerful than Captain America. Thor has better individual feats than Spiderman, and the Hulk has better individuals feats than Captain America. And no, I am not talking about fights or the transitive property. You are ignoring the question that Tom Brevoort is answering there, and it's when the Sentry disintegrates Molecule Man. Straight up, and no strings attached.

For the second time, it's Contest of Champions II. Yes it is canon. Issue 5.

The context of it being what exactly, and where is the rest of the scene? As you just provided one cut off of it, which has Rogue states that she has the power of the Phoenix. When Iron Man's defenses are about to be ruptured.

Her NAME was Phoenix (that's what they constantly called her in the story). She could only tap into small portions of the Phoenix force, but that doesn't mean Jean Grey's TK isn't still impressive. You think it's an all or nothing feat. It's either a supernova level feat or it's nothing worth mentioning. That's not the case and you don't get to lay out what it is or isn't. Her TK is better than anything Vader is capable of and her power couldn't get past Tony's internal safeguards, so Vader won't either. Period.

So, provide me with an instance of what Jean Grey is capable of outside of the transitive property and show me some of her individuals feats at this point in time with her current powers and abilities. If you want to quantify how impressive it might be. If we ignore that the transitive property by itself is not reliable here. Since you seem to be heavily reliant on scaling in regards to Jean Grey, and what she is capable of. It did not help that you started this out by bringing up the scan it calls her the Phoenix there.

Why? Because you said so? What makes an inanimate object a variable outside of ABC logic?

No, because that's not Tom Brevoort was even discussing when he was talking about the transitive property.

...which is ABC logic. Hypocrite.

Which is not dismissed by Leland Chee, or anyone of note at the helm of Star Wars.

As I noted before you can't treat all the franchises as the same. It's a case by case basis.

Literally nothing true about that statement and it just further demonstrates your hilarious, ignorant, and hypocritical bias. How convenient that ABC logic is only relevant for the verse that you are defending, but it doesn't work for mine.

I am not the one you should be complaining to. Go to Tom Brevoort, and give the fedora wearing bastard an earful. It is not based on ignorance. It is based on what we know about Marvel, and large comic books companies like it. As well as statements by those at the helm of it. As I noted before it's not just Star Wars. There are plenty franchises where you can see the transitive property is not openly dismissed.

Some vague and out of context statement by ONE editor has no sway over Marvel either. Stan Lee once said that any character can beat any other character if the writer decides to make it that way. Who do we listen to? I got an idea, how about we just look at consistency instead of using blanket statements for every and all feats within Marvel? Too radical of an idea, I know.

Not out of context. I even provided the question that he was answering, and it was in regards to the Sentry disintegrating Molecule Man. That's when Tom Breevort notes that it falls under what he calls the transitive property, and that it does not apply to super heroes. Stan Lee makes notes of how writers can do anything they want, and do so regardless of the consequences or whether it even makes sense. Which would fall under the likes of plot induced stupidity, and character induced stupidity we see in comic books.

If you think Hulk struggling to damage Tony's armor is bad writing then post something that disproves that notion. Post something consistent that proves that idea faulty. Since you don't know anything about Tony's power level, I'm sure you'll post scans of Spider-Man, Captain America, Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, etc. winning against Iron Man which I can effortlessly debunk and prove as being inconsistent.

You see this is yet another problem with your argument. You complain about me not allowing you to use the transitive property but if I were to use it against Iron Man you would cry foul, and say it's an inconsistency even if it consistently happens throughout Iron Man's career. You hold yourself to a double standard regarding the transitive property, and let it apply only in Iron Man's favor; yet, you call me the hypocrite here when you are not open for letting it go the other way.

It goes both ways or you can't use it at all. Unless you want to be a hypocrite?

Hypocritical.

Not really, because as I noted Leland Chee doesn't hold the same stance as Tom Brevoort does. Also, ironic coming from you at this point.

It's simple. You just ignore the inconsistencies. You act like every story contradicts the next story. If you pull all feats of a character together and you notice a trend that says a character is a street level character and then there are only like 2 feats of him being portrayed at herald levels, then you ignore the odd ones out. If Iron Man can't withstand Hulk levels of force, then why don't you post instances of that being inconsistent.

Which you are not doing. You are using whatever outliers you can for Iron Man, and ignore any less impressive showings even when they consistently happen. You hold yourself to a double standard in regards to transitive property that you are using, and say it can only be used in Iron Man's favor rather than his detriment. As if it matters what I post because you already have it in your mind that anything that contradicts a faster than light, planet destroying Iron Man is objectively wrong. Any evidence I bring up you would dismiss, and not even bother to look at.

Fine, you wanna nitpick? How's this?

Just a nuclear explosion there, and as I noted not impressive for the mid tiers from Star Wars. You're going to say you knew I was going to say this, and complain about CT's calculations but I already noted why you're wrong about this in the above.

This probably still won't impress you since there isn't any sketchy fan calculations and it's still "unquantifiable" in your eyes despite the fact that even the biggest man-made nukes can't destroy an average sized mountain, let alone 4-5. You are ridiculous.

I called it.

There was nothing sketchy about the calculations I provided, and as I already noted destroying a mountain usually ends up yielding a result in the hundreds of megatons of tnt. Which, while impressive, is not on the scale of what mid-tiers such as Darth Vader, and Galen Marek can accomplish.

First of all, I NEVER said Iron Man couldn't be hurt by Hulk. Talk about putting words in someone's mouth... Another example of hypocrisy. I vaguely said he failed to hurt him. However, in reality, he resisted being crushed by Hulk for several seconds before something interrupted him. Here are two instances of this happening:

You outright said the Hulk failed to crush Iron Man's suit, and couldn't produce the pressure necessary to do so. I am not putting words into your mouth. You are doing a good job of doing that yourself. You can't even remember what you said earlier. The fact the only reason the Hulk couldn't crush Iron Man's armor was because he was interrupted makes it even less impressive. Which shows that Iron Man can't actually endure that much force, and we don't even see the Hulk at his strongest there.

Second of all, the earthquake was active for seconds... SECONDS. Let that sink in. How long do you think a 10.0 would have to be active for to affect the entire planet? Are volcanoes going to go off the microsecond a 10.0 starts?

Just seconds is more than enough. An earthquake does not last as long as you think it does. At the very most an earthquake can last several minutes, and usually they don't last that long. A 10.0 earthquake lasting for fifteen seconds would cause irrevocable damage regardless because the energy wouldn't stay in one spot, and move through the earth. As it needs to go somewhere.

....but he stopped the earthquake before it had a chance to do real lasting damage... Before it had a chance to grow... You do understand that, right? How do we know what would have happened if Tony just let the earthquake go? What we do know is that Tony claimed it'd take 30 seconds to destroy the city. Prove that a 10.0 could destroy a city in that time frame. Hell, even proving a 7.0 could do that would be nice.

No, you are assuming the scale when we don't how precisely the earthquake would have destroyed the city and in those seconds it was active the damage we see it does is nowhere near what a 10.0 on a richter scale would be. That is akin to a super volcano erupting, and messing up the entire planet to the point of changing its geography, and drastically effecting the weather across the entire globe. The burden of proof is not on me. You have to show how it would destroy the city, and ravage the entire planet for it to be as grand as you think it is. Which you can't because it was stopped beforehand. Which leads you to making the assumption it is that powerful with no evidence to back you up.

Lmfao I find it so hilarious that you actually think Vader has durability far above nukes. So hilarious. Even if those weird calculations were correct, he would have tanked lightning above nukes, but Iron Man won't be using lightning on Vader. How would these ridiculous calculations translate against brute force? What happens if Iron Man punches Vader with the same level of force which drew blood from Sentry's lip? It's a specific type of energy attack, so it doesn't translate to Vader being able to no-sell anything below the gigaton level.

Sorry, but weren't you just complaining about me treating gravity manipulation and the force differently? Now you are trying to say Darth Vader's specifically resistant against force lightning when it is one of his explicit weaknesses? This is like saying Superman surviving a kryptonite nuke is less impressive than surviving a normal nuke. It does not follow, and makes no sense here. Galen Marek's clone could produce the kind of energy it would take to charge a fusion accelerator cannon, and break through the force field of an ISD. Now you're once again using the transitive property to say Iron Man is legitimately capable of hurting the Sentry of all people.

You have displayed that you don't know jack sh!t about Iron Man. You are using ridiculous calculations and shoddy comparisons to translate to Vader's overall durability.

Whereas you have displayed that you know next to nothing about Star Wars, and its expanded universe. I am using calculations that are detailed, rely on official statistics, and events that we can see happen. The comparisons are the farthest thing from shoddy.

Destroying a mountain as wide as Manhattan and as tall as Mount Everest would be above that. Get your genius mathematicians calculate it.

Not my job. You are the one supporting it, and going from what I have seen from what Endless Mike who has scrutinized it at best you would get a result of ten teratons of tnt in contrast to Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning which is more than four times that, and despite it being Darth Vader's weakness it couldn't keep him down.

These calculations are just ridiculous. How do you even transfer telekinetic force to gigatons? That'd be like if you used a telepathy feat to translate to 30 gigatons or something. That's just ludicrous.

No, it isn't as Galen Marek would have to contend with and counteract the kinetic energy of the falling ISD. Which at terminal velocity would be ridiculous, and that's what he was dealing with when he changed its trajectory. It is nothing like telepathy which is metaphysical, and effects the mind. You do know telekinesis is physically manipulating things, and moving them around?

As for the lightning, that doesn't necessarily mean he has the yield of 43 teratons. All he did was charge the cannon which is what destroyed the destroyer. He could have just been providing quantities of energy. It's quality vs quantity. If he was inside the star destroyer do you think that if he shot lightning at the ceiling that he'd be able to blast the star destroyer in half? That's basically what you are saying.

No, as I already noted Galen Marek's clone had to get through the ISD's shields which has an official yield we can actually go by rather than any calculations. Once again, you are ignoring what the calculation was even actually measuring there, and why it brought up those things. Did you even read the first part of it with the shields, and the energy outputs for them? That is what was being calculated. As they had to be broken before the fusion accelerator cannon could hit and destroy that other ISD.

I'M ignoring the context of what he said?? LMFAO! Dude, he literally gives an example of what kind of ABC logic is NOT acceptable and WHY it isn't. He's referring to SPECIFICALLY to victories. Certain victories can't be applied to other characters because there is context to those victories. You are extrapolating his statement to EVERY feat.

You are ignoring the question Tom Brevoort is even answering, and that he was talking about direct confrontations. The context of that question was the Sentry outright overpowering, and disintegrating Molecule Man. Never once does Tom Brevoort mention anything about context being the reason why, and instead he dismisses it based on the transitive property never applying to super heroes outside of plot induced stupidity or character induced stupidity.

Again, what makes his word gospel? Even if you didn't completely misunderstand and exaggerate his stance, that still doesn't prove anything.

I did not exaggerate or misunderstand his stance. That was you when you ignored why Tom Brevoort was saying that to begin with, and what question he was answering. We should take to heart because he is not just an editor. He is the executive editor, and the vice president of publishing for Marvel. Which is supported by how nonsensical fights can be be in Marvel, and comic books in general.

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I said that he failed to. What I meant was that he failed to do so in a reasonable amount of time. I never said that he could never hurt or damage Tony's armor. He's definitely capable of breaking and defeating Iron Man, but he will struggle to do so.

Which you never extrapolated on the first time, and you only added this clause afterwards when I called you out on it. You most definitely implied as such, as expected for me to take your word as holy gospel. Now you're back tracking, and changing your narrative.

No I'm not.

Yes, you are and you have.

That's ABC logic, hypocrite.

There's nothing against the transitive property in Star Wars, and Leland Chee has made no statements regarding it.

Pay attention.

Doesn't matter. Vader can't tank a 43 teraton attack. If I actually took this argument seriously I could present hundreds of pieces of evidence that contradicts your ridiculous calculation about his durability. When he gets hurt by far smaller scale attacks does that mean that those are above or near 43 teratons of force? I guess Boba Fett's blaster is around, what? 20 teratons of force since he managed to knock over and harm Vader?

So, in that case you have no problem with me using instances of when Iron Man is beaten up by Spiderman and given serious fights by the likes of street levelers such as Captain America. Oh wait, you outright noted that you dismiss them automatically, and wouldn't even take them into consideration because the transitive property only every works in Iron Man's favor because apparently you don't care about having any double standards regarding your favorite character. Interesting how Boba Fett is able to do anything at all when he should have kicked the bucket. Also no, Boba Fett's blaster didn't even leave any permanent damage on Darth Vader's helmet. Darth Vader wasn't harmed at all there. Just disorientated. Which doesn't make sense either.

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This discussion is a freaking joke.

It hasn't been, and I have explained in triplicate as to why.

How convenient.

I would say inconvenient, really.

...by one editor... Who isn't even saying what you are claiming he's saying. He was talking specifically about victories.

By the executive editor, and vice president of publishing for Marvel. You are acting like he is a normal editor when he is not. He was talking specifically about an instance where the Sentry disintegrates Molecule Man outright. Which is the question he was answering to begin with, and how the transitive property is never applied to super heroes outside of the story. However idiotic or nonsensical said story might be.

Again, it's stupid to shrug it all off completely. You look at what is and isn't consistent. That's all. Batman, a CONSISTENT street leveler, taking on CONSISTENT planetary powerhouses and high tiers is INCONSISTENT because he struggles with MUCH weaker characters MOST of the time. Iron Man's strongest villains are powerful enough to give powerful Avengers a tough time. That's his consistent power level. Mandarin, Ultimo, Fin Fang Foom, Arsenal, Crimson Dynamo, Temugin, etc. have all tanked hits from or given powerhouses like Thor, Hulk, Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch, etc. a difficult time.

Batman, who CONSISTENTLY fights planetary powerhouses, and who is CONSISTENTLY treated as relevant among them despite the fact he shouldn't be. Along with the likes of Deathstroke who CONSISTENTLY is able to get the upper hand against speedsters such as the Flash. To say nothing of Squirrel Girl who ALWAYS has the upper hand, and has defeated Thanos outright. As I noted before in comic books they are such a huge source of material that you can make almost anything out to be consistent. Which is why the transitive property is not reliable when you discuss them.

Again, I'm not listening to your ridiculous reasoning for why we should just straight up ignore encounters and showings. That's ludicrous.

Once more, I am not taking your liberal powerscaling at heart unless you can show me Iron Man doing these things outside of his fights against other characters or as the plot demands.

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Boogeymonster

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#104  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996 said:
@reikai said:

@noone1996: He has literally tried to pull the "transitive property" card. This is all his argument is right here.

But dude, the Star Warsverse is WAY more consistent than Marvel! That's why ABC logic works. >.>

No, it's because Star Was doesn't have an executive editor and the vice president of publishing noting that the transitive property is never applied to superheroes. In reference to an instance where a character outright overpowers another in a fight, and destroys them. And yes, Marvel along with DC have got to be two of the most inconsistent settings in fiction. It's hard to top them. Unless your name is Dragonball.

@reikai said:

@noone1996: He has literally tried to pull the "transitive property" card. This is all his argument is right here.

Loading Video...

That doesn't even make any sense, and shows how little you actually understand my argument. You are just posting random videos at this point.

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Noone1996

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@boogeymonster: Dude, Brevoort's statement doesn't matter. You do realize that, right? You are essentially saying that 98% of feats in Marvel are useless because of this vague comment by an editor on an online forum who probably spent 10 seconds typing out what he said. It's a lazy way to discredit and lowball someone's feats. It's equally ironic too because you literally do the exact same thing and when I call you out on it your retort is "herp marvel dc and dragunball es moar incunsistint coz i say so". I'm sure for every 5 inconsistent feats you provide from Marvel, I can find at least 1 for Star Wars. They aren't immune to bad/inconsistent writing and you know it.

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reikai

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@noone1996: There's tonnes of inconsistencies in SW. Just lookin at some of th images he used would tell you that. Some from the early Clone Wars comic based on the first animated series, which is retconned and replaced by another Clone Wars comic series, that then became the inspiration for a lot of the plot and scene from the TCW animated series, that retcons and replaces all the previous material.

So when you lump it all together, like he's doing, it generates a colosssal amount of inconsistencies because they all contradict each other in terms of both th character appearances and abilities.

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Boogeymonster

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#107  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996 said:

@boogeymonster: Dude, Brevoort's statement doesn't matter. You do realize that, right? You are essentially saying that 98% of feats in Marvel are useless because of this vague comment by an editor on an online forum who probably spent 10 seconds typing out what he said. It's a lazy way to discredit and lowball someone's feats. It's equally ironic too because you literally do the exact same thing and when I call you out on it your retort is "herp marvel dc and dragunball es moar incunsistint coz i say so". I'm sure for every 5 inconsistent feats you provide from Marvel, I can find at least 1 for Star Wars. They aren't immune to bad/inconsistent writing and you know it.

No, I am not. I am saying the use of powerscaling is not reliable unless we have things outside of said powerscaling to support such instances in comic books with large settings that overlap with each other. There are plenty of feats outside of powerscaling to other characters that one can use in Marvel, and DC. It is not essentially saying that 98% percent of feats are not usable In Marvel, and DC. As I already noted he is the executive editor, and vice president of publishing. Not just some random editor. In response to a question that was specifically involving a character having a showing over another character. It's not ironic because Marvel, and DC are both notoriously rife with inconsistencies.

Pretty every franchise have them by they are near the top when it comes to them along with other large franchises such as Dragonball. Also, once you show you haven't read my posts. I said I brought that up because A) an executive editor, and the vice president of publishing for Marvel brought it up B) because comic books are notoriously inconsistent and C) because you only use the "transitive property" when it supports Iron Man, and not when it supports any other character that faces him. No one is immune to bad writing or inconsistencies.

The problem is that Marvel, and DC are much worse at it than most; that someone at the helm of Marvel's editing, and publishing notes it is never applied; then, the fact you are abusing the use of it when it's not consistent with Iron Man's abilities in order to say he is much more powerful than typically portrayed. You are also confusing what is consistent. If there are five "inconsistent" feats, and one feat in defiance of the former? It is the former that is more consistent as it happens five times in contrast to the latter which happens only once for every five instances

@reikai said:

@noone1996: There's tonnes of inconsistencies in SW. Just lookin at some of th images he used would tell you that. Some from the early Clone Wars comic based on the first animated series, which is retconned and replaced by another Clone Wars comic series, that then became the inspiration for a lot of the plot and scene from the TCW animated series, that retcons and replaces all the previous material.

So when you lump it all together, like he's doing, it generates a colosssal amount of inconsistencies because they all contradict each other in terms of both th character appearances and abilities.

It is never retconned, and replaced by another Clone Wars series. There are multiple series based on the Clone Wars. In regards to Disney Canon, TCW takes precedence over CW. They are also set in different periods of time than each other. CW starts right after Attack of the Clones, and TCW happens some time after it. So, there's nothing to contradict. In Legends Canon, TCW and CW are of equal relevance.

I am not lumping it all together. Disney Canon specifically consists of the the films, novelizations, and comic books made after Disney got ownership of it. Legends Canon is made up of everything before then.

http://www.geek.com/culture/the-current-canonical-star-wars-timeline-1683840/

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Legends

What I still find hilarious is you're trying to play it off on me with all the purposeful attempts on your part to spread misinformation regarding Vampire Hunter D, and what you're doing here right now with Star Wars.

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Noone1996

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@reikai: Yeah, he's the epitome of a hypocrite. The movies, comics, and novels are considered canon and the difference in power levels is tremendous. Even if you ignore the movies, he already posted scans of Vader getting brought to his knees after tanking a building level explosion. No one takes him seriously at all.

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Noone1996

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@boogeymonster: I don't have time to examine and analyze everything you said. Fact is, there isn't some rule, written or unwritten, that states that you can't use feats because an editor said so. Period. End of story. Why don't you try arguing this ridiculous rule in one of these thread and make it official.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/the-battles-bible-mandatory-reading-before-posting-662522/#229

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-table-of-contents-1634421/#105

Let's see how fast you get shut down.

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Boogeymonster

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#111  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996 said:

@reikai: Yeah, he's the epitome of a hypocrite. The movies, comics, and novels are considered canon and the difference in power levels is tremendous. Even if you ignore the movies, he already posted scans of Vader getting brought to his knees after tanking a building level explosion. No one takes him seriously at all.

The sheer amount of irony coming from both you, and Reikai is hilarious. You are the only ones who are hypocrites here. You haven't looked at my scan either. He wasn't brought to his knees. The entire building was destroyed, and he dropped down from what was left of it onto a passing star ship. You see, this is one of the problems. You're just glancing through my posts instead of actually looking at them closely.

@noone1996 said:

@boogeymonster: I don't have time to examine and analyze everything you said. Fact is, there isn't some rule, written or unwritten, that states that you can't use feats because an editor said so. Period. End of story. Why don't you try arguing this ridiculous rule in one of these thread and make it official.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/the-battles-bible-mandatory-reading-before-posting-662522/#229

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-table-of-contents-1634421/#105

Let's see how fast you get shut down.

If you don't have time to analyze, and examine everything I have said there is no point to you arguing against me. As otherwise you are just plugging your ears with wax, and refusing to listen to my counter arguments. There are rules against using things such as Spiderman defeating Firelord, and which you used two instances of when Iron Man wasn't immediately crushed by the Hulk and when Iron Man could defend against Rogue with Jean Grey's abilities from an instance you still refuse to provide the entire context of. Which shows Iron Man's defenses about to outright fail against it. There are no rules against using word of god, and other such things.

ReiKai himself has broken one of the rules by trying to use low-ends, and repeatedly lying about the canon despite being corrected on it several times which is against another one of the rules. To say nothing of how he debates by bias almost constantly, and purposely misconstrues context.

Well actually, he is probably not doing it on purpose. It's just that his reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

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Darth Vader took on an entire rebel army with an estimated kill count of 300+, has brought down Imperial destroyers just by using the force. He could just hold Tony where he is and just crush him in his armor.

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Noone1996

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@boogeymonster: First of all, that feat you posted, whether I spent hours looking at it or not, still proves that Vader was hurt by FAR less than what you think he's capable of tanking. That feat that YOU posted proves that Star Wars can be inconsistent. THAT was the point. Second of all, I didn't post the links to the battle forum rules in an attempt to say that you were breaking them, but I was saying why don't you try commenting on there and tell them to change the rules about Marvel and DC not being allowed to use transitive property anymore. Let us know how well that works out for you. Third of all, since that's not a battle forum rule, the scans I posted are legitimate. You can argue inconsistency or bad writing or PIS to shrug off the feat, but you CANNOT say that they are irrelevant for the SOLE reason that ABC logic is involved. It's not a rule on comic vine and constantly re-posting a clipped image of Brevoort making a comment doesn't change that fact.

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Whats stopping Vader from crushing Tony in his Armor all 4 rounds?

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Tony_Shark

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@all-father: Iron Man has counter measures in place that null any kind of external gravitational force on his suit.

He did this to fight Gravitron back in mid 2000s.

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@tony_shark: The Force isn't "External Gravity", its an energy field that connects all living things in the galaxy.

So pretty much anything with Midi-Chlorians(Which is every tangible object in the universe) is controllable by a Force user.

Sith Lord Naga Sadow destroyed a entire Star System by crashing two Stars together creating a super nova explosion (Using the Force)

Darth Nihilus destroyed an Entire planet by draining it's life force

Not just Darth Vader, any Sith Lord or Jedi Grandmaster would stomp Tony with ease.

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Boogeymonster

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@boogeymonster: First of all, that feat you posted, whether I spent hours looking at it or not, still proves that Vader was hurt by FAR less than what you think he's capable of tanking. That feat that YOU posted proves that Star Wars can be inconsistent. THAT was the point. Second of all, I didn't post the links to the battle forum rules in an attempt to say that you were breaking them, but I was saying why don't you try commenting on there and tell them to change the rules about Marvel and DC not being allowed to use transitive property anymore. Let us know how well that works out for you. Third of all, since that's not a battle forum rule, the scans I posted are legitimate. You can argue inconsistency or bad writing or PIS to shrug off the feat, but you CANNOT say that they are irrelevant for the SOLE reason that ABC logic is involved. It's not a rule on comic vine and constantly re-posting a clipped image of Brevoort making a comment doesn't change that fact.

Darth Vader was not in any way hurt by that explosion, and the most it did was scuff his cape. The entire building was destroyed, and Darth Vader dropping from a piece of it he was hanging from onto a passing star ship. Nothing about the scene suggests that Darth Vader was hurt. No matter how you look at it Darth Vader is perfectly fine. How is that inconsistent? It showed that a large explosion of that magnitude could little more than scuff his cape. I do not comment on the rules section because it is necessary, and what I was doing was using word of god. Which there are no rules against. Just as there are no rules against using scaling from other characters. The problem is there actually is a rule against the latter. When it doesn't make sense, and is unusual. Such as the Spiderman defeating Firelord example. Which is why I brought that up, and noted that you are using scans to say Iron Man is far more powerful than he is depicted on his own by using some shoddy powerscaling. As I already brought up there are no rules against using word of god from an executive editor and vice president of publishing for a franchise.

@tony_shark: The Force isn't "External Gravity", its an energy field that connects all living things in the galaxy.

So pretty much anything with Midi-Chlorians(Which is every tangible object in the universe) is controllable by a Force user.

Sith Lord Naga Sadow destroyed a entire Star System by crashing two Stars together creating a super nova explosion (Using the Force)

Darth Nihilus destroyed an Entire planet by draining it's life force

Not just Darth Vader, any Sith Lord or Jedi Grandmaster would stomp Tony with ease.

Naga Sadow was using a Sith Artifact to do that. His Corsair is what allowed him to do that, and Darth Vader doesn't really scale to that. Darth Nihilus was a wound in the force, and while not as powerful a wound in the force as say Darth Sidious or Emperor Valkorion? He is definitely more powerful than Darth Vader. The force also acts as the after-life, and exists beyond reality in hyperspace.

Mind you, I am not disagreeing with you that Darth Vader could defeat Iron Man. As he is definitely nearly as powerful as Galen Marek, and Galen Marek's clone could only defeat him by using tutaminis.

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reikai

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The Force isn't "External Gravity", its an energy field that connects all living things in the galaxy.

And the dead apparently as well, given the existence of, a know, Force Ghosts and all that.

So pretty much anything with Midi-Chlorians(Which is every tangible object in the universe) is controllable by a Force user.

Nnnno. That's the same as claiming every Force User can manipulate Mc's and can just toss around non-force users as they please, when that has been proven many times to be wrong on numerous occasions. Especially the Prime Canon when Luke tries and fails to use it against Jabba the Hutt.

Sith Lord Naga Sadow destroyed a entire Star System by crashing two Stars together creating a super nova explosion (Using the Force)

No. He used a sizable portion of his power, along with that of his Force-Imbued ship, to cause an already unstable red giant star into collapsing and exploding into a super nova. He then used the last of the power at his disposal to direct two solar flares from twin binary stars to destroy several Republic ships in pursuit of him.

Also, that's Naga Sadow, a Sith Sorcerer who learned how to do these things and was over 200yrs old. Not Vader, who never learned this stuff and couldn't utilize Force Lightning because of his suits restrictions.

Darth Nihilus destroyed an Entire planet by draining it's life force

Nihilus was a Force Wound whose body had disintegrated and he was little more than a ghost in a suit of armor, who could only continue to exist by draining the life force from powerful Force Sensitives and worlds with large volumes of life upon it as a means of sustenance and not an ability he had direct and total control over, since it was also killing him.

And once again, that's a completely different character with abilities Vader doesn't have.

Not just Darth Vader, any Sith Lord or Jedi Grandmaster would stomp Tony with ease.

This is already proven blatantly untrue and I'm not exactly surprised by this level of nonsense after the blatant lies you've already issued.

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Boogeymonster

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#119  Edited By Boogeymonster

@reikai

Nihilus was a Force Wound whose body had disintegrated and he was little more than a ghost in a suit of armor, who could only continue to exist by draining the life force from powerful Force Sensitives and worlds with large volumes of life upon it as a means of sustenance and not an ability he had direct and total control over, since it was also killing him.

No, he wasn't eating planets because he needed to in order to survive. He was eating planets because as a result of becoming a wound in the force it made him to hunger to devour all life as they knew it. As you already know he was already a force ghost, and doesn't actually need any sustenance. Darth Nihilus had direct control over it, and used it to his advantage whenever it suited him. Specifically force draining entire planets when he spoke, and not doing so passively. The only reason he was defeated was because the Exile herself was a wound in the force, and counteracted it. It wasn't in any way leading to Darth Nihilus's demise.

Nnnno. That's the same as claiming every Force User can manipulate Mc's and can just toss around non-force users as they please, when that has been proven many times to be wrong on numerous occasions. Especially the Prime Canon when Luke tries and fails to use it against Jabba the Hutt.

Jabba the Hutt, and his entire species has a noted resistance against it. It wasn't something anyone outside of his species could resist without training or specific direction from others. Case in point we know from KOTOR that Darth Revan had to personally train people in order to defend against it, and in SWTOR some people had to go as far as employing advanced surgical methods such as the Sith Empire.

No. He used a sizable portion of his power, along with that of his Force-Imbued ship, to cause an already unstable red giant star into collapsing and exploding into a super nova. He then used the last of the power at his disposal to direct two solar flares from twin binary stars to destroy several Republic ships in pursuit of him.

Wrong again, the red giant star in question wasn't already unstable and it was only unstable to begin with because of the corsair being used on it. The corsair could be used to tear the core out of stars outright, and cause them to explode into supernovas. It wasn't just solar flares. As seen when Exar Kun discovered the Corsair, and had Aleema Keto use it to unwittingly destroy a star in the Battle of Kemplex IX after tearing its core out. Aleema Keto, who comparably speaking, is nothing compared to Naga Sadow. It wasn't one or two stars either. It was the entire cron cluster. Which was destroyed as result of that supernova. Which caused a chain reaction that destroyed everything in the cron cluster.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

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reikai

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No, he wasn't eating planets because he needed to in order to survive. He was eating planets because as a result of becoming a wound in the force it made him to hunger to devour all life as they knew it. As you already know he was already a force ghost, and doesn't actually need any sustenance. Darth Nihilus had direct control over it, and used it to his advantage whenever it suited him. Specifically force draining entire planets when he spoke, and not doing so passively. The only reason he was defeated was because the Exile herself was a wound in the force, and counteracted it. It wasn't in any way leading to Darth Nihilus's demise.

Except, no, you're wrong. It was already explained in KotoR 2. Nihilus had to Force Drain others to maintain his existence. He had to slowly drain the crew of his ship in order to keep himself going while traveling and the reason why he was so drastically weakened when attempting to drain the planet Telos was because it was already a world with hardly any life on it and no Force Users. So trying to expand his drain over the world and barely receive a trickle had diminished him substantially.

An actual ghost, like Marka Ragnos, doesn't require draining because he isn't bound to a tangible form. Nihilus stuck his ghost inside his armor in order to effectively have a body. But to maintain that connection and avoid being destroyed by his own existence as a wound, he needed to constantly drain others. This was already well established.

Jabba the Hutt, and his entire species has a noted resistance against it. It wasn't something anyone outside of his species could resist without training or specific direction from others. Case in point we know from KOTOR that Darth Revan had to personally train people in order to defend against it, and in SWTOR some people had to go as far as employing advanced surgical methods such as the Sith Empire.

Except when it's specifically stated that mental influences only really work on weak-minded individuals and being strong-minded doesn't specifically require training, nor specific training in that area. Also, you forget in KotoR that Revan didn't train people so they could resist mental influence, he had them trained to avoid Detection by Jedi who only passively sensed peoples intent to harm via surface emotions and thoughts. This would allow his hunters and assassins to get in close and either capture or eliminate them without the Jedi having a chance to defend themselves.

In short, Revan gave a big fat middle finger to the whole concept of "Jedi precog beats everything."

Wrong again, the red giant star in question wasn't already unstable and it was only unstable to begin with because of the corsair being used on it. The corsair could be used to tear the core out of stars outright, and cause them to explode into supernovas. As seen when Exar Kun discovered the Corsair, and had Aleema Keto use it to unwittingly destroy a star in the Battle of Kemplex IX after tearing its core out. Aleema Keto, who comparably speaking, is nothing compared to Naga Sadow.

Hey look, more rubbish. Again, no. Gav and Jori Daragon, if you actually remembered "Tales of the Jedi", discovered the star in question while mapping hyperspace routes and noted the red giant was unstable before their accidental discovery of the Sith Empire.

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And, btw, you're still using the Corsair, Sadow's Vessel itself that has Force Crystals for this very reason, as a crutch and trying to claim that since a nobody like Aleema can bust a star, then so can Vader!...despite never having done so, never being indicated as having the capacity, never studying the intricacies and depths of Sith Sorcery, nor having access to a ship or tool like the Corsair to actually replicate this feat.

In short; Your argument is complete rubbish.

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Noone1996

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#121  Edited By Noone1996

@boogeymonster: Then I suppose he made the noise, "HNNNF." because he fell too, huh? Either he made that noise because the fall hurt him or the explosion weakened him. Either way, you don't make that noise for no reason. That's like saying, "there's no proof Iron Man hurt Hulk" and then ignoring the fact that, as Tony blasted him, he screamed out or grunted in pain.

There IS NO RULE ON NOT USING TRANSITIVE PROPERTY! Show me the rule on comic vine where it says that. Brevoort's comment holds no water here at all. DC and Dragonball Z doesn't have some main writer or editor making statements like Brevoort, so why does this stupid statement hold so much weight to you? Either way, we've already established that Star Wars can be inconsistent too, yet you conveniently still use the transitive property for Vader.

It's funny that you talk about Iron Man not consistently being portrayed at a high level "on his own" without using "shoddy" ABC logic from stronger characters when you don't even know anything about him lmao. He's outran the pull of a black hole which was big enough to swallow a 5 mile tall Celestial killer (which would mean he withstood that pulling force too), he also withstood the pull of a miniature black hole in his classic armor (although it was brief), he's tanked multi-mountain busting explosions which shook the entire planet (that he had half a hand in creating after combining his power with the Mandarin), he survived a wave of energy hitting him which ended up sinking the West Coast of the U.S. (it shorted the circuits in his armor, but it rebooted), casually and consistently no-sells nukes, destroys a ravine of boulders deep and large enough to fill the Grand Canyon, destroyed a man-made island by flying into it, knocks over a mountain from the shockwaves/vibrations of his punches, tows five 45,000 ton battleships at once, lifts up the Washington Monument (which weighs 90,000 tons), lifts a skyscraper, preventing two ocean liners from crashing into one another, etc.

But sure, please go on and tell me about where Iron Man's power levels are at and how he has no good feats outside of facing off against powerful characters. Oh wait, shout. Sorry, these are ABC logic feats too, right? I guess all of these feats are automatically null and void. Let's just play it safe and rate Tony at Spider-Man level even though he consistently fights villains in the low-end high tier level. I mean it's not like Brevoort was specifically talking about victories when referring to transitive logic (assuming his comment even matters at all).

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Boogeymonster

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#122  Edited By Boogeymonster

@reikai

Except, no, you're wrong. It was already explained in KotoR 2. Nihilus had to Force Drain others to maintain his existence. He had to slowly drain the crew of his ship in order to keep himself going while traveling and the reason why he was so drastically weakened when attempting to drain the planet Telos was because it was already a world with hardly any life on it and no Force Users. So trying to expand his drain over the world and barely receive a trickle had diminished him substantially.

No, this is made up garbage on your part. Darth Nihilus wasn't force draining his crew, and it's quite the opposite he was keeping them alive. After the mass shadow generators activated, and destroyed Malachor V. He wasn't slowly draining them of the force, and instead kept both them and his fleet together with the force.

"This ship is from Malachor. This Sith Lord of yours bolsters his fleet with the ships from that world... he's nothing more than a scavenger..."

"This ship, is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet, that is a measure of his power."

"This ship is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago."

"He holds it together. And he keeps us all alive, just enough, like rotworms within a dying beast."

―Canderous Ordo and Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

The reason why Darth Nihilus was defeated was specifically because the Exile herself was a wound in the force just like he was, and that was his kryptonite. So, when the Exile fought him he was at a disadvantage as he was fighting the worst possible opponent that he could fight.

As we see with Katarr he has control over it.

"This is my world. My people, the Miraluka, see its beauty not with their eyes, but through the Force. They do not see it has less than an hour to live. Katarr was a world filled with Force sensitives, and it called to my lord. Aboard his dead ship he hungered through the Force, drew sustenance from death. My people never saw his face when he struck, but they heard his voice. When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died. The destruction of Katarr echoed through the Force, the screaming of countless lives. As the Miraluka see life through the Force, we can see death as well."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Unseen, Unheard)

It required him to only think of doing so, and it would happen.

"[Darth Nihilus can] devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought."

―Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

Darth Nihilus devouring Telos did not make him weaker, and while Telos was not as vibrant as other worlds it had plenty of people on it. It simply did not provide him with as much energy as usual because there were no force sensitives on it. It's even noted that a world as absent in force sensitives as Telos still provided him with some energy.

An actual ghost, like Marka Ragnos, doesn't require draining because he isn't bound to a tangible form. Nihilus stuck his ghost inside his armor in order to effectively have a body. But to maintain that connection and avoid being destroyed by his own existence as a wound, he needed to constantly drain others. This was already well established.

No, it wasn't the brunt of the reason why he was devouring planets was because he was wound in the force and hungered to satiate the void he had become. As we see with other wounds in the force such as Darth Sidious and Emperor Valkorion it is not necessary, and is instead used to make them more powerful. Which is what was happening to Darth Nihilus, as the more planets he devoured the more powerful he became.

"He cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings, or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"Perhaps he will grow strong enough to eradicate all life, merely with his presence."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

Except when it's specifically stated that mental influences only really work on weak-minded individuals and being strong-minded doesn't specifically require training, nor specific training in that area.

Except when we see strong minded individuals, people with connections to the force, and people with training against it fail to do anything about it. The very excerpt you ripped from HK-47 makes notes of how difficult it is to defeat Jedi, and that Darth Revan had to personally train people for the task.

As we see when Master Yonlach uses it against one of his students. Who is an explicit force sensitive, and has training against it.

Loading Video...

Also, you forget in KotoR that Revan didn't train people so they could resist mental influence, he had them trained to avoid Detection by Jedi who only passively sensed peoples intent to harm via surface emotions and thoughts.

That is specifically resistance against telepathy, and HK-47 notes that despite this plans were useless against the Jedi and Sith because they would know about them anyway and the only way to put them down was with overwhelming numbers. As well as unpredictability, lots of heavy explosives, and resistance against their abilities.

This would allow his hunters and assassins to get in close and either capture or eliminate them without the Jedi having a chance to defend themselves.

Wrong again, HK-47 makes note of the fact plans do not work against precisely because of their precognition and that unpredictability is referring is going in there with no plans what to speak of. Defenses against their telepathy, numbers, and heavy ordinance.

In short, Revan gave a big fat middle finger to the whole concept of "Jedi precog beats everything."

In short, you know next to nothing about what HK-47 was talking about and are selectively ignoring parts of his explanation. Despite posting the video for it yourself.

It's like you just grabbed it from google, and didn't even watch it.

Hey look, more rubbish. Again, no. Gav and Jori Daragon, if you actually remembered "Tales of the Jedi", discovered the star in question while mapping hyperspace routes and noted the red giant was unstable before their accidental discovery of the Sith Empire.

Straw man, yet again. I wasn't talking about that when I said the red giant stars weren't unstable. I was referring to the solar flares from the red giant stars Naga Sadow used. Then I talked about the Battle of Kemplex IX, and the fact that Aleema Keto someone who is far weaker than Naga Sadow, could destroy the cron cluster with the corsair. Which included nine other stars, and not just Primus Goluud, with a massive supernova caused by outright ripping the core of said star out.

And, btw, you're still using the Corsair, Sadow's Vessel itself that has Force Crystals for this very reason, as a crutch and trying to claim that since a nobody like Aleema can bust a star, then so can Vader!...despite never having done so, never being indicated as having the capacity, never studying the intricacies and depths of Sith Sorcery, nor having access to a ship or tool like the Corsair to actually replicate this feat.

No, I wasn't if you paid attention I was correcting you when you decided to fudge the truth about Naga Sadow and the corsair. As well as the fact Aleema Keto could outright tear the core out of the star, and cause it to explode with such force that it destroyed nine other stars in the cron cluster. It doesn't matter that Primus Goluud was "unstable." As the other nine stars most certainly weren't. I never once used Naga Sadow, and the corsair to say Darth Vader could destroy stars or multiple star systems. I even specified against it before you did. If you paid any attention to my posts.

@boogeymonster said:
@noone1996 said:

@boogeymonster: First of all, that feat you posted, whether I spent hours looking at it or not, still proves that Vader was hurt by FAR less than what you think he's capable of tanking. That feat that YOU posted proves that Star Wars can be inconsistent. THAT was the point. Second of all, I didn't post the links to the battle forum rules in an attempt to say that you were breaking them, but I was saying why don't you try commenting on there and tell them to change the rules about Marvel and DC not being allowed to use transitive property anymore. Let us know how well that works out for you. Third of all, since that's not a battle forum rule, the scans I posted are legitimate. You can argue inconsistency or bad writing or PIS to shrug off the feat, but you CANNOT say that they are irrelevant for the SOLE reason that ABC logic is involved. It's not a rule on comic vine and constantly re-posting a clipped image of Brevoort making a comment doesn't change that fact.

Darth Vader was not in any way hurt by that explosion, and the most it did was scuff his cape. The entire building was destroyed, and Darth Vader dropping from a piece of it he was hanging from onto a passing star ship. Nothing about the scene suggests that Darth Vader was hurt. No matter how you look at it Darth Vader is perfectly fine. How is that inconsistent? It showed that a large explosion of that magnitude could little more than scuff his cape. I do not comment on the rules section because it is necessary, and what I was doing was using word of god. Which there are no rules against. Just as there are no rules against using scaling from other characters. The problem is there actually is a rule against the latter. When it doesn't make sense, and is unusual. Such as the Spiderman defeating Firelord example. Which is why I brought that up, and noted that you are using scans to say Iron Man is far more powerful than he is depicted on his own by using some shoddy powerscaling. As I already brought up there are no rules against using word of god from an executive editor and vice president of publishing for a franchise.

@all-father said:

@tony_shark: The Force isn't "External Gravity", its an energy field that connects all living things in the galaxy.

So pretty much anything with Midi-Chlorians(Which is every tangible object in the universe) is controllable by a Force user.

Sith Lord Naga Sadow destroyed a entire Star System by crashing two Stars together creating a super nova explosion (Using the Force)

Darth Nihilus destroyed an Entire planet by draining it's life force

Not just Darth Vader, any Sith Lord or Jedi Grandmaster would stomp Tony with ease.

Naga Sadow was using a Sith Artifact to do that. His Corsair is what allowed him to do that, and Darth Vader doesn't really scale to that. Darth Nihilus was a wound in the force, and while not as powerful a wound in the force as say Darth Sidious or Emperor Valkorion? He is definitely more powerful than Darth Vader. The force also acts as the after-life, and exists beyond reality in hyperspace.

Mind you, I am not disagreeing with you that Darth Vader could defeat Iron Man. As he is definitely nearly as powerful as Galen Marek, and Galen Marek's clone could only defeat him by using tutaminis.

As seen here.

In short; Your argument is complete rubbish.

In short, you haven't been paying attention to a single thing that I said. You even confused Naga Sadow for Aleema Keto, and the instance where the cron cluster was destroyed for his handiwork. When I was correcting you on the fact the stars Naga Sadow manipulated weren't unstable.

@reikai said:

No. He used a sizable portion of his power, along with that of his Force-Imbued ship, to cause an already unstable red giant star into collapsing and exploding into a super nova. He then used the last of the power at his disposal to direct two solar flares from twin binary stars to destroy several Republic ships in pursuit of him.

Also, that's Naga Sadow, a Sith Sorcerer who learned how to do these things and was over 200yrs old. Not Vader, who never learned this stuff and couldn't utilize Force Lightning because of his suits restrictions.

You didn't even know what I was talking about until you used google to look for it, and this shows you haven't read Tales of the Jedi at all.

You also missed part of my post. Since you were in such a hurry to reply instead of thoroughly reading through my posts first.

@boogeymonster said:

Wrong again, the red giant star in question wasn't already unstable and it was only unstable to begin with because of the corsair being used on it. The corsair could be used to tear the core out of stars outright, and cause them to explode into supernovas. It wasn't just solar flares. As seen when Exar Kun discovered the Corsair, and had Aleema Keto use it to unwittingly destroy a star in the Battle of Kemplex IX after tearing its core out. Aleema Keto, who comparably speaking, is nothing compared to Naga Sadow. It wasn't one or two stars either. It was the entire cron cluster. Which was destroyed as result of that supernova. Which caused a chain reaction that destroyed everything in the cron cluster.

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Then I suppose he made the noise, "HNNNF." because he fell too, huh? Either he made that noise because the fall hurt him or the explosion weakened him. Either way, you don't make that noise for no reason. That's like saying, "there's no proof Iron Man hurt Hulk" and then ignoring the fact that, as Tony blasted him, he screamed out or grunted in pain.

Prove that "hnnf" had anything to do with pain, and that it caused damage beyond anything superficial such as exhaling air. As Darth Vader got right back up from landing on that star ship, and as I already noted the most we see is that his cape is scuffed. There is no substantial damage on his person, and the "hnnf" can be attributed to his sudden exhalation of air after landing on that star ship.

There IS NO RULE ON NOT USING TRANSITIVE PROPERTY! Show me the rule on comic vine where it says that.

There is if it makes no sense, and the most you have for Iron Man outside of the transitive property is surviving nuclear explosions and destroying a large mountain. Which would fall under Spiderman defeating Firelord, or Spiderman being able to catch Silver Surfer in his webbing.

Brevoort's comment holds no water here at all.

Show me where in the rules when it is not allowed to use the word of god from an executive editor, and vice president of publishing.

DC and Dragonball Z doesn't have some main writer or editor making statements like Brevoort, so why does this stupid statement hold so much weight to you? Either way, we've already established that Star Wars can be inconsistent too, yet you conveniently still use the transitive property for Vader.

As I have proven that is not really the case, and based on misinterpretations from both you and ReiKai. As well as acting as if Star Wars does have that sort of statement going for it when it explicitly doesn't. True, DC and Dragonball don't but it doesn't change how ridiculously inconsistent they can be in contrast to Star Wars. Which has separate canons in order for consistency to exist. Disney Canon, and Legend Canon.

It's funny that you talk about Iron Man not consistently being portrayed at a high level "on his own" without using "shoddy" ABC logic from stronger characters when you don't even know anything about him lmao. He's outran the pull of a black hole which was big enough to swallow a 5 mile tall Celestial killer (which would mean he withstood that pulling force too), he also withstood the pull of a miniature black hole in his classic armor (although it was brief),

Citation needed, and you have to prove these black holes are fully-fledged black holes and not pseudo-black holes. As in fiction black holes are often poorly portrayed. Luke Skywalker can toss around micro black holes, and destroy them but that doesn't mean he can do the same to fully-fledged black holes. Since black holes are not always accurately portrayed in fiction, and end up being weaker than they actually should be instead of causing the collateral damage they actually should.

he's tanked multi-mountain busting explosions which shook the entire planet (that he had half a hand in creating after combining his power with the Mandarin)

Citation need for Iron Man shaking the entire planet under his own power, and I already noted that mountain busting is not enough here.

You're not going to bring up that city destroying earth quake again, are you?

he survived a wave of energy hitting him which ended up sinking the West Coast of the U.S. (it shorted the circuits in his armor, but it rebooted),

Citation need, and quantification needed. Not that it's going to amount to much when compared to the likes of the Hulk, and the Phoenix but it will be funny to see try to equate them as similar somehow.

casually and consistently no-sells nukes

That is not enough as I have already noted.

destroys a ravine of boulders deep and large enough to fill the Grand Canyon,

About the same scale as the above, and not enough to make a different against Darth Vader.

destroyed a man-made island by flying into it

Already noted that large mountain could be at most going by Endless Mike ten teratons of tnt, and nowhere near enough for someone to context with the likes of the Hulk or Phoenix.

knocks over a mountain from the shockwaves/vibrations of his punches

Which is not impressive enough to save him here, and as I already noted Darth Vader can amplify the strength of his attacks with the force.

tows five 45,000 ton battleships at once, lifts up the Washington Monument (which weighs 90,000 tons),

There are random Jedi Knights like Rivi-Anu that can stop a crashing venator-class star destroyer weighing hundreds of millions of metric tons.

lifts a skyscraper, preventing two ocean liners from crashing into one another, etc.

Not impressive when compared to messing around with things the size, and weight of star destroyers as they crashing and have kinetic energy behind them on top of that.

But sure, please go on and tell me about where Iron Man's power levels are at and how he has no good feats outside of facing off against powerful characters. Oh wait, shout. Sorry, these are ABC logic feats too, right? I guess all of these feats are automatically null and void. Let's just play it safe and rate Tony at Spider-Man level even though he consistently fights villains in the low-end high tier level. I mean it's not like Brevoort was specifically talking about victories when referring to transitive logic (assuming his comment even matters at all).

Straw man, yet again on your part. I never dismissed or ignored those feats. What I am saying is that those feats are not enough for him to contend with the likes of the Hulk and the Phoenix. I never claimed those instances would fall under the transitive property, or powerscaling. I claimed they weren't enough for Iron Man to contend with or face the likes of the Hulk and the Phoenix. Which is true. Nor did I ever claim Iron Man was as weak as Spiderman. Tom Brevoort was specifically talking about powerscaling, and the transitive property in a direct fight. He used hypothetical victories as examples, and not actual ones.

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@boogeymonster: Then I suppose he made the noise, "HNNNF." because he fell too, huh? Either he made that noise because the fall hurt him or the explosion weakened him. Either way, you don't make that noise for no reason. That's like saying, "there's no proof Iron Man hurt Hulk" and then ignoring the fact that, as Tony blasted him, he screamed out or grunted in pain.

There IS NO RULE ON NOT USING TRANSITIVE PROPERTY! Show me the rule on comic vine where it says that. Brevoort's comment holds no water here at all. DC and Dragonball Z doesn't have some main writer or editor making statements like Brevoort, so why does this stupid statement hold so much weight to you? Either way, we've already established that Star Wars can be inconsistent too, yet you conveniently still use the transitive property for Vader.

It's funny that you talk about Iron Man not consistently being portrayed at a high level "on his own" without using "shoddy" ABC logic from stronger characters when you don't even know anything about him lmao. He's outran the pull of a black hole which was big enough to swallow a 5 mile tall Celestial killer (which would mean he withstood that pulling force too), he also withstood the pull of a miniature black hole in his classic armor (although it was brief), he's tanked multi-mountain busting explosions which shook the entire planet (that he had half a hand in creating after combining his power with the Mandarin), he survived a wave of energy hitting him which ended up sinking the West Coast of the U.S. (it shorted the circuits in his armor, but it rebooted), casually and consistently no-sells nukes, destroys a ravine of boulders deep and large enough to fill the Grand Canyon, destroyed a man-made island by flying into it, knocks over a mountain from the shockwaves/vibrations of his punches, tows five 45,000 ton battleships at once, lifts up the Washington Monument (which weighs 90,000 tons), lifts a skyscraper, preventing two ocean liners from crashing into one another, etc.

You're mentioning feats that pretty much any Jedi Grandmaster or Sith Lord do while blindfolded and his Hands behind his back. Star Killer (Apprentice) pulled down a entire imperial destroyer, Darth Bane at the age of 26 pulled a moon out of Orbit.

But sure, please go on and tell me about where Iron Man's power levels are at and how he has no good feats outside of facing off against powerful characters. Oh wait, shout. Sorry, these are ABC logic feats too, right? I guess all of these feats are automatically null and void. Let's just play it safe and rate Tony at Spider-Man level even though he consistently fights villains in the low-end high tier level. I mean it's not like Brevoort was specifically talking about victories when referring to transitive logic (assuming his comment even matters at all).

Nobody is denying or ignoring these feats, these feats are not enough to have him contend with Vader or any sith lord for that Matter.

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#127  Edited By Noone1996

You're mentioning feats that pretty much any Jedi Grandmaster or Sith Lord do while blindfolded and his Hands behind his back. Star Killer (Apprentice) pulled down a entire imperial destroyer, Darth Bane at the age of 26 pulled a moon out of Orbit.

None of those characters have anything to do with Vader.

Nobody is denying or ignoring these feats, these feats are not enough to have him contend with Vader or any sith lord for that Matter.

Right, because surviving multi-state level destruction or withstanding the pull/pressure of a black hole is child's play for someone like Vader. Give me a break.

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#128  Edited By Noone1996

I've already been warned several times from other users both privately and publicly not to engage a certain someone in this thread, so I'm going to take their word for it because this is just getting absurd.

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I've already been warned several times from users not to engage a certain someone in this thread, so I'm going to take their word for it because this is just getting absurd.

But I was enjoying reading it. (sad face)

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#130  Edited By reikai

@noone1996: It's for the best. The majority of what this individual says is a fabrication. I've read the Bane trilogy and there was no moon pulling. No mention of that in the Book of Sith either. And Starkiller, aka Galen Marek, only changed the angle of descent of an incomplete ISD in order so that it's fall didn't kill his love interest and Rahm Kota, as it was written in the novel.

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Just gonna leave this picture here because I love it.

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#132  Edited By Boogeymonster

@reikai said:

@noone1996: It's for the best. The majority of what this individual says is a fabrication. I've read the Bane trilogy and there was no moon pulling. No mention of that in the Book of Sith either. And Starkiller, aka Galen Marek, only changed the angle of descent of an incomplete ISD in order so that it's fall didn't kill his love interest and Rahm Kota, as it was written in the novel.

Wrong again, the star destroyer was nearly complete and as we can see it was missing almost no parts or pieces. In fact, it was virtually indistinguishable from a complete star destroyer and the novel clarifies that it was very nearly complete with little missing. Not only that it clarifies that the ISD was falling from orbit, and going through reentry which means it is actually more impressive than effecting it from a static position. As kinetic energy is a thing, and Galen Marek would have to have dealt with said energy outright. This is not as bad you thinking Naga Sadow is a grew haired, human womann by the name of Aleema Keto but it's pretty close. Also, I think you're confusing me for another user.

Kota’s voice unexpectedly came in reply. “What’s going on, boy?”

Can’t you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, unable to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating shipyards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.

It was aiming for him.

“Juno can’t fly the ship at the moment,” said Kota firmly, “and neither can PROXY. We have to find another solution.”

“What’s wrong with Juno?”

“Concentrate on what’s important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You’ll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon.”

The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.

Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.

“You’re insane,” he gasped. “It’s massive!”

“What is mass?” Kota said. “It’s all in your mind, boy. You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!”

Kota’s voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.

“Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you’ll die on this trash heap!”

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.

You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!

He wasn’t a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn’t recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.

Had his Master ever done anything like this? Had the Emperor? Had any Sith or Jedi in the history of the galaxy?

He doubted anyone would ever know about his success or failure in the next few minutes.

“Be quick about it, boy!”

Fast or slow were also irrelevant to the Force, but the apprentice took Kota’s point. The sooner he started, the sooner it would be done.

Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

Nearly sixteen hundred meters long and capable of carrying a crew in excess of thirty-seven thousand, the ship was a familiar design. Its engines and armament weren’t fully installed, but its Class One hyperdrive would have taken it anywhere in the Empire at speed, there to deploy walkers, fighters, barges, and shuttles. Armed with a host of turbolaser and ion cannons, plus no less than ten tractor beams, it could have blockaded an entire system on its own. The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down.

Wherever it went down …

There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.

Focus.

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn’t hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor’s handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.

The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.

More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.

Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraith-like. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire—yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.

Who did he think he was?

A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death’s-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master’s, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased.

But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.

Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone—or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

No answer came.

The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again.

For Juno, then.

He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice’s feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

-- The Force Unleashed

As we can see in both the videogame, and the comic book the ISD is virtually indistinguishable from a complete one. In the comic book we see it only sustained damage after Galen Marek had his way with the shipyard.

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This is a calculation taking consideration of the fact the ISD was falling from orbit, and was at terminal velocity. Which actually makes it more impressive instead of less impressive.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/star-wars-feat-galen-marek-tks-a-star-destroyer.21942/

This is with low-balling, and assuming eighty percent of the interior was empty space despite the fact the ISD was nearly complete. You still end up getting a result of over a gigaton of tnt even when assuming that the interior of the ISD is much more hollow than it actually is.

CT123 said:

He TK'saStar Destroyer

Another rendition.

Howithappenedinthecanonnovel.

So, as it happened in the novel, and is reflected by the comic version of events, the Star Destroyer gets released into free fall above Raxus Prime after that large space station was destroyed. Starkiller in both novel and comic controls its landing so that it ends up colliding with some big ass cannon. The video game in gameplay seems to portray the ship as having briefly engaged Galen Marek, but seeing as those events don't occur in the novel, I'll assume that bit isn't canon and just work with the ending cutscene that appears to corroborate with the novel's interpretation of events.

The free fall as seen in the game. The final shove to the ground for the Star Destroyer before destroying the cannon as seen in the game.

On with the calc.

Spoiler:

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Star Destroyer Length = 1041 pixels

Star Destroyer Width = 576 pixels

Star Destroyer Width/Star Destroyer Length = 0.553

Star Destroyer Length = 1,600 meters

Star Destroyer Width = 884.8 meters

Star Destroyer Length = 1039 pixels

Star Destroyer Height = 190 pixels

Star Destroyer Height/Star Destroyer Length = 0.183

Star Destroyer Length = 1,600 meters

Star Destroyer Height = 292.8 meters

Volume = 0.2(LWH/3)

Star Destroyer Volume = 27,634,073.6 m^3

Steel Density = 7,800 kg/m^3

Star Destroyer Mass = 215,545,774,080 kilograms

As we can see here? I'm likely low balling the mass by assuming 80% of the volume is empty space.

So... given it's fall height, it's fairly obvious that, by the time we see it here, it's traveling at terminal velocity.

So, how do I find said velocity?

Equation

Acceleration Due to Gravity = 11.76 m/s^2 (Raxus Prime is 1.2 G)

Drag Coeffecient = 0.5 (a cone is approximately the shape of it here)

Air Density = 1.225 kg/m^3

Surface Area = (Star Destroyer Height*Star Destroyer Width)/2 = 129,534.72 m^2

Terminal Velocity of Star Destroyer = 7,993.597 m/s

As we see here, again, he forces the ship to the ground about as fast as it is falling horizontally, so it's fairly safe to say he at least moved it at the ship's terminal velocity.

So...

KE = 0.5mv^2

Galen Marek's Telekinetic Energy = 6,886,428,072,000,000,000 joules or 1.646 gigatons

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Darth Vader has the advantage of simply throttling Iron Man inside of his suit. I'm sure Iron Man is capable of counter-attacking, but Vader's skill with the saber is more than enough to cut down Tony's concussive blasts.

All in all, Anakin has the edge in this battle..

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deactivated-5a98875cd0f94

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Force Choke. TP. Force Push. Force Crush. The list goes on...

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YousufKhan1212

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WollfMyth209

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Iron Man has counter-measures against TK, has ways more ways of hurting Vader and can unleash rapid fire in quicker succession than Vader can keep re-errecting Barriers to deflect them.

Not saying Vader winning some rounds is impossible, but Tony's certainly the one I'd favour here.

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Noone1996

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#138  Edited By Noone1996

Iron Man still casually stomps. Vader can't even hurt him. Meanwhile, Tony could magnetically manipulate him and EMP his life support systems and tech.

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gingerpenny

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#140  Edited By gingerpenny

I would pay money to see this battle, I personally think Darth Vader would win but, not easily, this could be a tough battle for Vader and Stark both. I give Vader would win but it would take work. As to your OP Darth Vader would probably lose one. Bleeding Edge imo

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deactivated-5a98875cd0f94

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Not sure why Vader doesn't enslave him with TP from the start, given how he drained knowledge from a very skilled telepath in ROTJ Luke. Not sure how Tony has countermeasures against monster level TK from Vader- miles pre-prime Vader collapsed a fricking cathedral, massively pre-prime, toying Vader dominated Starkiller who obliterated half of a 300 meter frigate and was canonically superior to his original template who pushed thousands of droids and held a Star Destroyer, Vader casually crushed TIE fighters in the vacuum of space, Vader casually ragdolled Rebel ships, casually collapsed ceilings, and was stated even 80% of ROTS Sidious, someone who bettered Yoda who in turn lifted a mountain. Not sure how Tony is tagging someone who while massively pre-prime casually deflected blaster bolts from, like, twelve or more shooters, while massively pre-prime was stated to be faster than his ROTS Kenobi who could briefly deflect fire from armies of droids, and more. Not sure how Tony's gear is breaking a Force Barrier that while massively pre-prime tanked an explosion from a temple at Malachor.

Vader stomps.

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Noone1996

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@thesithmaster: Iron Man's tech allows him to resist telepathy on a planetary scale, he casually tanks nukes, and has shown the capability of tagging light speed speedsters.

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GoodMeme

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@spinxo: Vader stomps the last 2 rounds and I will say he can win the first 2 as well he will just have to try a little harder.

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blackspidey2099

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#144  Edited By blackspidey2099

Unless Vader can use the force on Tony's internal organs despite the armour, Iron Man murderstomps.

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Rac95

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I'll give Round 2 definitely to Vader.

I say he has good chances in R3 and R4 too, he is a beast with Legend feats

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MasterSkywalker

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I'd go with Iron Man here.

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Richard96

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#147  Edited By Richard96

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Darth Vader

The Force >>>>>>>>>>> technology

Vader murderstomps!!!!

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Vader stomps all rounds. Iron Man has no Force Wall. Vader chokes him, snaps his neck, rips out his heart, crushes his armor, pulverizes him with Force Wave, etc. Furthermore, Iron Man's weapons won't be able to seriously hurt Vader.

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Kilius

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Honestly Tony might have a chance - his suit has pretty swift reaction time, enough to compete with Force sensitives. I'd still favor Vader though, be it Canon or Legends.