Iron Man vs Darth Vader

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Boogeymonster

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#51  Edited By Boogeymonster

Going to note that even your average Jedi Knight like Rivi-Anu can temporarily stop a crashing venator-class star destroyer, and Darth Vader is far above your average Jedi Knight. Rivi-Anu who was the padawan of Ki-Adi-Mundi. Ki-Adi-Mundi who along with Shaak Ti got beaten by General Grievous, and General Grievous who got beaten by Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Taken from Clone Wars Adventures vol. 6

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Rockette

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Going to note that even your average Jedi Knight like Rivi-Anu can temporarily stop a crashing venator-class star destroyer, and Darth Vader is far above your average Jedi Knight. Rivi-Anu who was the padawan of Ki-Adi-Mundi. Ki-Adi-Mundi who along with Shaak Ti got beaten by General Grievous, and General Grievous who got beaten by Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Taken from Clone Wars Adventures vol. 6

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Oh snap!

Maybe we have a scrap after all.

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Amonfire1776

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Iron Man stomps every round...

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SupremeGeneration

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Tony bloody stomps, what kind of mismatch is this? Only Mark42 dies.

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NewWorldOrder

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reikai

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Iron-Man all rounds. He actually has internal defenses designed against such methods of attack. Which also includes defense against some degrees of magic he's learned to detect through his tech. In short; Vader is screwed every single time. And Tony could literally shut down Vader's entire suit and his cybernetics.

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Boogeymonster

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#58  Edited By Boogeymonster

The strange thing about that people keep claiming that Iron Man has these defenses against it but they have yet to provide any citations for them, and even then they use a no-limit fallacy to claim Iron Man can defend against all measure of telekinesis and telepathy. That's like saying because Saber from Fate/Stay Night is resistant against magecraft from Fate/Stay Night she could shrug off the sort of magic we see Doctor Strange is capable of.

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SpinXO

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Bump.

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AlphaQ

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#60  Edited By AlphaQ

Either Vader kills him with internal attacks, or he gets one-shotted. They're the only two options for this fight.

TK debating is often very crude, I find. Someone like Magneto doesn't use TK like someone like Graviton does, just like how Prof. X doesn't control minds like Purple Man does. Not to say the Force bypasses any type of TK resistance, it doesn't, we've seen the Force being negated several ways before. Force TK is simpy manipulating an energy source that is omnipresent in the Star Wars universe, and hyperspace. There's no such thing as generic TK, or any ability.

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Noone1996

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@boogeymonster: Iron Man built in his suit countermeasures for being crushed or affected by TK. His armor, automatically mind you, reroutes his repulsor input to reinforce his armor mass and cancel out the foreign ability that's attempting to crush him.

Iron Man (2007) issue 22.

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This was a character with the same powers as Graviton who can literally move cities with his TK.

By the way, "Gadget" is a character that was telekinetically crushed within nanoseconds. That strategy didn't work so well on Stark.

Even if TK worked on Stark that wouldn't even make a difference. His armor has withstood pressures and forces FAR above anything that Vader could dish out.

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Boogeymonster

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#62  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996 said:

@boogeymonster: Iron Man built in his suit countermeasures for being crushed or affected by TK. His armor, automatically mind you, reroutes his repulsor input to reinforce his armor mass and cancel out the foreign ability that's attempting to crush him.

Iron Man (2007) issue 22.

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This was a character with the same powers as Graviton who can literally move cities with his TK.

By the way, "Gadget" is a character that was telekinetically crushed within nanoseconds. That strategy didn't work so well on Stark.

Even if TK worked on Stark that wouldn't even make a difference. His armor has withstood pressures and forces FAR above anything that Vader could dish out.

What evidence do you have that Paragon was as powerful as Graviton? That's not even telekinesis either.

That's gravity manipulation; that is something entirely different than this, and not reliant on that.

That just shows me external durability. As the example you are bringing up doesn't involve crushing Gadget's internal organs but rather crushing Gadget from the outside until he could fit into something the size of a match box, and Iron Man having a defense against that. How durable was Gadget that it is comparable to someone stopping a venator-class star destroyer as it is crashing? Mind you, that's just for Jedi Knights beneath the sort of Jedi Masters who would get destroyed by Darth Vader as they were.

As it was Darth Vader could survive Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning who could charge a fusion accelerator cannon, and let it do this to an ISD:

Loading Video...

The video skips to the time-frame where the scene begins. This despite having a particular weakness for electricity thanks to his cybernetics.

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawledup and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right armstrained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm. But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong. Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

- The Force Unleashed 2

And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

- The Force Unleashed 2

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deactivated-5c531df1eeb1f

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All this people thinking Tk and Tp will effect Tony are tripping.

Tony wins all rounds.

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Noone1996

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What evidence do you have that Paragon was as powerful as Graviton? That's not even telekinesis either. That's gravity manipulation; that is something entirely different than this, and not reliant on that.

He had the same powers as Graviton and he even managed to throw Dr. Hall around. It is a form of telekinesis. The distinction isn't relevant. Vader and Paragon both use their minds in order to move, levitate, or manipulate foreign objects or material. Paragon not only couldn't even move Tony, but he was trying to crush him into the size of a billiards ball. Didn't work. Even if you don't like that, he's also displayed gravity/magnetism grip systems that keeps him grounded:

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Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
They have kept him grounded from sonic waves that were so powerful that they even knocked Wonder Man over.

That just shows me external durability. As the example you are bringing up doesn't involve crushing Gadget's internal organs but rather crushing Gadget from the outside until he could fit into something the size of a match box, and Iron Man having a defense against that.

Rogue with all of Jean Grey's powers was unable to fry Tony's brain with TK due to his internal compensators and dampers:

Now, sure, Iron Man was being strained and struggled to hold back the attack, but the point is that he did successfully keep out the internal attack and it was from someone with a level of TK far above anything even remotely close to what Vader has accomplished.

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If he could keep out an internal attack from Phoenix, I think he'll be fine against Vader.

How durable was Gadget that it is comparable to someone stopping a venator-class star destroyer as it is crashing? Mind you, that's just for Jedi Knights beneath the sort of Jedi Masters who would get destroyed by Darth Vader as they were.

Gadget was featless, but her durability is irrelevant here. Even if we ignore all of Tony's countermeasures for telekinetic forces, that still doesn't explain how Vader is going to win with TK. Would Vader force crush Iron Man? Not even the Hulk has successfully done that. Is he going to ragdoll Stark and slam him against a wall repeatedly until the armor breaks? Lol he's tanked far worse. Outside of internal attacks on Stark's body, TK simply won't work. However, that's all hypothetical anyway since Iron Man developed TK countermeasures already.

As it was Darth Vader could survive Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning who could charge a fusion accelerator cannon, and let it do this to an ISD:

The video skips to the time-frame where the scene begins. This despite having a particular weakness for electricity thanks to his cybernetics.

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawledup and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right armstrained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm. But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong. Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

- The Force Unleashed 2

And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

- The Force Unleashed 2

So I take it this is to show how durable and resilient he is? Tony's repulsors have matched and cancelled out an Earthquake which was, by Tony's calculations, powerful enough to destroy an entire city in 30 seconds.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I don't think even a 10.0 is capable of that, but let's be generous and assume that it was an 8.0 that Tony stopped. An 8.0 is the equivalent of over 6 million tons of TNT being detonated. For a reference, 1 million tons of TNT is a 1 megaton yield nuke. A 7.0 has the equivalency of 190,000 tons of TNT and Little Boy (Hiroshima) was only 16,000 tons of TNT.

No Caption Provided

Even if you lowballed, at the very least, that feat alone puts his repulsor power WAY above kiloton nukes.

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WastelandMan

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Yeah, Iron Man stomps.

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Sovereign91001

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Iron man stomps, there isn't really anything Vader can do to him.

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Boogeymonster

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#67  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996

He had the same powers as Graviton and he even managed to throw Dr. Hall around. It is a form of telekinesis. The distinction isn't relevant. Vader and Paragon both use their minds in order to move, levitate, or manipulate foreign objects or material. Paragon not only couldn't even move Tony, but he was trying to crush him into the size of a billiards ball. Didn't work. Even if you don't like that, he's also displayed gravity/magnetism grip systems that keeps him grounded:

Just because Paragon has similar abilities doesn't mean he is as powerful as Graviton. It is not a form of telekinesis. It is manipulating gravity. This is like equating Magneto's magnetism to telekinesis. There is a distinct difference, and mechanism behind it. You're equating gravity manipulation to the use of the force when the latter is more along the lines of the arcane. The transitive property does not exist in Marvel, and if taken seriously the likes of Squirrel Girl is more dangerous than Thanos.

You provided an instance of Iron Man stopping himself from being hit by a car. How does that compare to a mere Jedi Knight temporarily stopping a venator-class star destroyer from crashing. Something that weighs hundreds of millions of metric tons?

They have kept him grounded from sonic waves that were so powerful that they even knocked Wonder Man over.

This is ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, as noted by Tom Brevoort. You have to prove that these sonic waves are powerful enough that it makes sense for Wonder Man to be knocked down by them. Which means getting individual instances where we see the destruction caused by these sonic waves rather than instances over other characters.

No Caption Provided

Rogue with all of Jean Grey's powers was unable to fry Tony's brain with TK due to his internal compensators and dampers:

You only posted part of the scene, and where we see Iron Man's defenses are about to fail against it. What issue was this, and was it canon?

More importantly, if you take the transitive property at face value here that would mean Iron Man is durable enough to withstand supernovas. As I assume this is Jean Grey as strong as she was as the Dark Phoenix?

In which case you would have to provide an instance outside of any direct confrontation with any other character of note, and show Iron Man surviving something along the lines of a supernova.

Gadget was featless, but her durability is irrelevant here. Even if we ignore all of Tony's countermeasures for telekinetic forces, that still doesn't explain how Vader is going to win with TK. Would Vader force crush Iron Man? Not even the Hulk has successfully done that. Is he going to ragdoll Stark and slam him against a wall repeatedly until the armor breaks? Lol he's tanked far worse. Outside of internal attacks on Stark's body, TK simply won't work. However, that's all hypothetical anyway since Iron Man developed TK countermeasures already.

No, it is relevant as that is about the only instance which wouldn't fall under the use of the transitive property. Which isn't usable in regards to Marvel. What instances you have provided are reliant on the transitive property, and in order to prove that they are consistent with what Iron Man is actually capable of you would have to provide instances outside of confrontations against other popular characters. You are applying a no-limit fallacy, as you have to provide evidence that Iron Man has consistently contested the sort of things Darth Vader is capable of. Just having a resistance against telekinesis or telepathy is not enough. You need to show Iron Man defending against this particular scale of telekinesis, and telepathy. Which means finding things outside of the transitive property.

So I take it this is to show how durable and resilient he is? Tony's repulsors have matched and cancelled out an Earthquake which was, by Tony's calculations, powerful enough to destroy an entire city in 30 seconds.

Not really impressive by Darth Vader, and Galen Marek's standards. I can even provide some calculations for Galen Marek, and his clone. I think I will grab those right about now. The rest of the scans I provided for Darth Vader, and several other characters you can find on the previous page.

I don't think even a 10.0 is capable of that, but let's be generous and assume that it was an 8.0 that Tony stopped. An 8.0 is the equivalent of over 6 million tons of TNT being detonated. For a reference, 1 million tons of TNT is a 1 megaton yield nuke. A 7.0 has the equivalency of 190,000 tons of TNT and Little Boy (Hiroshima) was only 16,000 tons of TNT.

Oh no, a 10.0 on the richter scale would be much greater than that. The scene you provided is nowhere near a 10.0 earthquake. A 10.0 earthquake is akin to the toba catastrophe which negatively impacted the entire earth, and left it in a volcanic winter for 6~10 years. Something that can only destroy a city is a 7.0 or 8.0 at best, and that depends entirely on how large this city is.

As for Galen Marek's ISD feat of changing its trajectory, and slowing its fall after it crashes from orbit. It is calculated at around 1.6 gigatons of TNT.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/star-wars-feat-galen-marek-tks-a-star-destroyer.21942/

Which is about two-hundred, and sixty-six times more impressive than six megatons of TNT, and that's assuming your speculation is correct. Which is hard to know unless we know the size of the city, and the extent of the damage caused by the quake.

As for Galen Marek's clones charging the fusion accelerator cannon. It was calculated at 43 teratons of TNT.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/star-wars-feat-starkillers-clone-powers-the-fusion-accelerator-cannon.21981/

Which is nearly half the force of the asteroid that brought the dinosaurs to extinction.

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Noone1996

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Lmfao this dude is seriously arguing that Vader is above Iron Man? HAHAHAHA.

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Boogeymonster

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Now you're using an argument from incredulity. When I provided explanations as to why this fight is not as one-sided as you think it is, and evidence to back them up.

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reikai

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#70  Edited By reikai

And Tony has fought guys who can actually destroy planets. Which requires no BS logic or fabricated figures to explain.

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Boogeymonster

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#71  Edited By Boogeymonster

@reikai said:

And Tony has fought guys who can actually destroy planets. Which requires no BS logic or fabricated figures to explain.

There are no fabricated figures, and everything that was used is relevant in regards to Darth Vader as he is in Legends. Which is what this discussions pertains. Strange, that you ignore these things in regards to the Iron Man side of the argument.

It specifically requires the use of the transitive property, and of which is incredibly unreliable in comic books. In Marvel, it's outright noted to be dismissed by Tom Brevoort because of that. Need I remind people of the time Spiderman was able to break Tony Stark's suit? Which doesn't make sense.

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reikai

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@boogeymonster: Need I remind you that, even in Legends, TFU isn't taken as canon. Should I also remind you that the Hulk has smashed a planetoid twice the size of the Earth, which would make it roughly eight times its mass, and Tony has withstood blows from the Hulk before. Which, by that logic, would make Tony's armor vastly superior to anything Vader could ever hope to dish out.

Nvm Tony has had dozens of armors througout his career with different armaments, powersets and the like so you saying Spidey once damaged it is completely meaningless. Should I remind you that tech in Star Wars has been essentially stagnant for thousands of years and is never really going to change or grow? Should I also remind you that technology in Marvel is vastly superior to Star Wars and Tony is one of the most technologically gifted figures in the MU?

No matter what load of crap you try and pull, it doesn't change the fact that not only is Tony superior to Vader in every way, but that this nonsense has been done before. And it's precisely why most SW fans only debate in-universe. Because challenging most any other fictional universe generally results in SW getting stomped into a greasy smear.

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Boogeymonster

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#73  Edited By Boogeymonster

@reikai said:

@boogeymonster: Need I remind you that, even in Legends, TFU isn't taken as canon. Should I also remind you that the Hulk has smashed a planetoid twice the size of the Earth, which would make it roughly eight times its mass, and Tony has withstood blows from the Hulk before. Which, by that logic, would make Tony's armor vastly superior to anything Vader could ever hope to dish out.

Nvm Tony has had dozens of armors througout his career with different armaments, powersets and the like so you saying Spidey once damaged it is completely meaningless. Should I remind you that tech in Star Wars has been essentially stagnant for thousands of years and is never really going to change or grow? Should I also remind you that technology in Marvel is vastly superior to Star Wars and Tony is one of the most technologically gifted figures in the MU?

No matter what load of crap you try and pull, it doesn't change the fact that not only is Tony superior to Vader in every way, but that this nonsense has been done before. And it's precisely why most SW fans only debate in-universe. Because challenging most any other fictional universe generally results in SW getting stomped into a greasy smear.

It most certainly is canon, and Legends incorporates it. There are even novelizations, and comic books for TFU. It was supervised by George Lucas, and Legends takes it as canon to because of that. This is precisely the reason why the Hulk not being able to hurt Iron Man doesn't make sense. It is like Ghost Rider failing to use the penance stare against the Punisher. This is why the transitive property is not reliable, and that includes all fights against other characters. That logic by the admission of the people at the helm of Marvel as of recent makes no sense, and is ignoring how inconsistent comic books can be.

The reason I brought up the Spiderman example was to showcase how using the transitive property doesn't make sense, and it's not just breaking Tony Stark's suit. It's fighting him, matching him, and restraining him with his webbing too. By your logic, Spiderman would be able to hit hard enough to smash large planets, and that makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing that would make even less sense is for example saying D absorbed a galaxy in Fortress of the Elder God when what he absorbed was an illusion, and the galaxy was still there as we see in the same playground its rotation is used to power a force field.

You are doing a wonderful job of hiding your bias Reigan. Well, I am being sarcastic. You are doing a horrible job of it, and made all the more ironic when you complained about people forcing their opinions down your throat. When you do that, and outright lie through your teeth at any time that you can in order to spread misinformation. The irony is palpable.

Which is ignoring everything else that I brought up so far.

So, talking about Legends we have:

Jaden Korr reacting to, and slapping a laser back at a scout ship after it's already been fired.

He fell into the Force as the scout ship’s wings flared and the weapons fired. To him, events seemed to slow. The lines of the ship’s lasers extended outward from its guns, slowly reaching across space, crayon lines drawn by an invisible child.

In the Force, he sensed the trajectory of the blasts, the line of their approach. His lightsaber spun through space, the Force-augmented motion stressing the hardsuit. The shots slammed into the yellow line of his blade, and he deflected them back at the ship’s cockpit. They split the space between them and knifed into the cockpit, which exploded into flame. The scout ship, bleeding smoke, streaked toward the pod.

-- Star Wars: Riptide

Darth Vader stopping one of I-Five's lasers, and just for reference I-Five outright refers to his lasers as light-speed, citing it down to the kilometer.

I-Five's laser, and his statement on it.

Jax shrugged. "It makes no difference if it's the sixth one or the first one that kills you. Dead is dead. "

"I wouldn't know. I do know, however, ", I-Five said, "that you're much better with that sword than you think you are. "

Jax glanced down at the weapon, saw his disorted reflection looking back at him from the blade's surface. "Yeah? How do you know th---?"

I-Five suddenly whipped up his left hand, index finger extended, and fired a laser beam at Jax. The beam splashed off the ionized fire that suddenly coated the length of the blade, which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam.

"That's how," I-Five said, "The speed of light is just under three hundred thousand kilometers per second. You are currently seven-point-three meters from me. Your Force-augmented anticipatory reflex action is obviously working fine. You just have to let it."

-- Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows

Darth Vader reacting to, and stopping I-Five's laser in mid-air with his telekinesis.

"Tell the droid to give me the bota, Pavan."

"The droid doesn't have it," said I-Five suddenly. Both hands came up in a lethal gesture, lasers firing. The beams sliced toward Vader . . . and stopped mere centimeters from his outstretched hand.

-- Coruscant Nights III: Patterns Of The Force

These two aren't faster than light but they do show that even Sith Acolytes can react, and attack within microseconds.

Darth Bane as a Sith Acolyte training with Fohargh.

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Another instance of Darth Bane training with Kas'im.

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Vestara Khai's showing of reacting within a nanosecond.

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Sarasu Taalon's showing of reacting within a nanosecond, and blocking a blast from a longshot after the fact with his bare hand. Mind you, that was after his dip in the Pool of Knowledge.

Come now, Master Skywalker. Taalon’s voice reached Luke more inside his mind than in his ears—a simple enough Force trick, but nonetheless one that sent a chill down Luke’s back. There will be time enough for that after we talk.

Luke replied in a normal speaking voice. “You expect me to come down?”

Well, you haven’t blasted me yet, Taalon countered.

Luke pressed the trigger and held it down—then felt his jaw drop as bolts began to ricochet off the High Lord’s palm. It wasn’t the deflection of blasterfire with a bare hand that shocked him—he had fought plenty of Sith capable of that trick. What amazed Luke was the speed with which Taalon had moved. In the nanosecond it had taken the first bolt to cross the distance between them, the High Lord’s hand had risen to deflect it, traveling so fast that the appendage had literally seemed to disappear from one place and reappear in another.

After tolerating the volley for a couple of seconds, Taalon grew weary of defending himself and crooked a finger. Luke tightened his grasp on the longblaster, expecting to feel it being ripped from his hands through the Force. Instead he found himself sliding out of his hiding place and tumbling through the air as he dropped toward the beach.

Luke tossed the longblaster aside and snatched his lightsaber, then quickly used the Force to right himself before he reached the beach. But Taalon did not hurl him into the sand, or even attempt to send him flying into Gavar Khai’s scarlet blade. He merely dropped Luke to the ground at a distance of five meters, then motioned for Khai to put his weapon away.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

There also the time when Abeloth was able to act within the time-frame of a nanosecond, and attack Luke Skywalker so quickly that a nanosecond was barely enough time for him to dodge her attack.

He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first. Luke tucked his chin and managed to flip to his back before he hit the stone floor. Abeloth was on top of him, her flesh blistered and smoking, her remaining leg entwining both of his, her remaining arm wrapped around the back of his neck.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Also, in the Revenge of the Sith novelization we see that even MagnaGuards have reflexes that operate near light-speed.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hyper-sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting.

He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him. In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away. He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.

-- Revenge of the Sith

Darth Vader should have no problem in regards to speed.

As for offense, telekinesis, and telepathy.

Darth Vader can use force scream, and it's powerful enough to melt durasteel.

Another roar from Vader. Part of the ceiling gave way. Durasteel melted, smoke rose from the debris. Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.

- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning

As well as shake entire buildings.

Vader’s reaction was not what he’d expected. After a frozen instant, ignoring the bloody spittle running down one plasteel cheek, he knelt and grabbed Typho by the hair, lifting the latter’s head and eliciting a cry of renewed pain from him.

“What?” The flare in the Force that raced through the hangar was enough to shake the foundations of the building. The Dark Lord actually seemed to grow, to expand and become more terrible in his rage than Typho would have believed possible.

- Coruscant Nights II: Streets Of Shadows

While on the subject on Coruscant Nights he was also able to reduce Nick Rostu--a force sensitive--into a vegetative state.

“You want me to find Jax Pavan for you,” Nick said. “I won’t do it.” His voice shook a little, but he got the words out.

Vader stepped closer to him. "I think you will. In fact, I know you will. You are brave; your record makes that clear. You do not fear death." He raised his left hand, index finger slightly extended, as if making a point. "But there are far worse things than mere death ...".

And before Nick realized what was going on, the Dark Lord was somehow inside his head, a dark shadow interrupting the flow of his thoughts. The shadow seemed to expand...Nick screamed, and fell into a blackness even more perfect than the eyes of Darth Vader.

...

Rhinann took Nick Rostu down to the hangar bay. Rostu was conscious, but silent, staring into the distance. Rhinann had become somewhat familiar with human facial expressions and body language, and he could tell that Rostu had seen or heard something that had nearly stunned him into a vegetative state. Rhinann shuddered, trying not to think about what horrors Vader had imparted to the human. Whatever they had been, they had left him in such shock that the forcecuffs he was wearing seemed almost superfluous.

...

His mind felt like it had been punched full of holes—holes that let conscious thoughts drain from it as fast as they popped into existence. Or maybe it was just that the thoughts were too horrible to hold on to for any length of time.

...

It was the human, Rostu, who had been the stick that broke the bantha’s back. After Rhinann had sent him on his way in the freighter, the Elomin had had time to speculate on whatever Vader had done to him to cause such a state of fear and despair in a hardened guerrilla warrior.

- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

There's crushing giant robots with the force.

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Darth Vader can use force crush on someone's heart. Specifically, a Jedi in this case.

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Darth Vader force bitch slaps a giant beast.

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Also, more on that.

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He is able to lift and throw a giant mining vehicle.

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As well as crush tie-fighters.

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In terms of durability Darth Vader has consistently survived Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning. Which is powerful enough to disintegrate stormtroopers and power the fusion accelerator canon of an ISD. Oh, and destroy heavy vehicles such as AT-AT Walkers.

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawledup and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right armstrained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm. But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong. Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

- The Force Unleashed 2

And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

- The Force Unleashed 2

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Just because Paragon has similar abilities doesn't mean he is as powerful as Graviton. It is not a form of telekinesis. It is manipulating gravity. This is like equating Magneto's magnetism to telekinesis. There is a distinct difference, and mechanism behind it. You're equating gravity manipulation to the use of the force when the latter is more along the lines of the arcane. The transitive property does not exist in Marvel, and if taken seriously the likes of Squirrel Girl is more dangerous than Thanos.

He has the same powers as Graviton. He managed to overpower Graviton's own gravitational energies and powers. You act like he's some featless character. Just ignore that though.

Nitpicking the ability doesn't change the fact that he resisted being crushed into the size of a billiards ball by a character with Graviton's powers. Again, the distinction between the force and gravity manipulation is irrelevant. There is no clear cut evidence that the force is magic.

The transitive property does exist in Marvel. You just have to be careful about context. If Iron Man beat Namor who beat the Hulk that doesn't mean that Iron Man is above Hulk because it all depends on the context. Tony can beat the Sub-Mariner because he has a heat weakness that can be exploited and Namor can only beat Hulk when he's underwater and using the depths against Banner. Saying Iron Man > Namor and Namor > Hulk so that means Iron Man > Hulk is what is frowned upon. I'm not doing that here.

I find it hilarious that you are whining about the transitive property when that literally just translates to ABC logic which is what you've been doing with a bunch of other feats that characters have accomplished. "herp star wars game character did this with lightning and vader blocked/tanked it so he that strong". That's literally the same thing.

You provided an instance of Iron Man stopping himself from being hit by a car. How does that compare to a mere Jedi Knight temporarily stopping a venator-class star destroyer from crashing. Something that weighs hundreds of millions of metric tons?

It proves that he has gravity grip systems which can keep him attached to the ground if he needs to be. I'm not using it as a no-limits fallacy, I was just posting the feat to demonstrate his ability to do so. However, implying that the force is so unique that no form of TK could compare to it is the true NLF. Just saying.

This is ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, as noted by Tom Brevoort. You have to prove that these sonic waves are powerful enough that it makes sense for Wonder Man to be knocked down by them. Which means getting individual instances where we see the destruction caused by these sonic waves rather than instances over other characters.

Tom Brevoort used specific examples which had an underlying message about usage of ABC logic or transitive property. He was saying not to be stupid about the transitive property and not to ignore context. When Iron Man beat Molecule Man he didn't do so with his raw strength, repulsors, or power. He did so by having a stronger will and resisting the power of Molecule Man's wand which resulted in Tony beating him. Brevoort was saying that one wouldn't then say, "Iron Man > Molecule Man" just because Tony beat him in a battle of willpower. Man-Thing did the same exact thing. So again, he wasn't saying the transitive property is useless. He was saying that certain kinds of ABC logic aren't usable. That's why you use context.

You only posted part of the scene, and where we see Iron Man's defenses are about to fail against it.

...but they don't fail? Is that not important? I guess Vader is above Jean Grey, huh?

What issue was this, and was it canon?

No, I actually just drew it myself. It's from Contest of Champions II.

More importantly, if you take the transitive property at face value here that would mean Iron Man is durable enough to withstand supernovas. As I assume this is Jean Grey as strong as she was as the Dark Phoenix?

This is by far the weakest strategy that I've ever seen for lowballing and underselling feats lmfao. Transitive property this and transitive property that. Lol. Why actually examine or analyze feats when you can just shrug off anything that actually involves other powerful characters? No, it wasn't Dark Phoenix and no she didn't use the power of a supernova.

You HAVE to use the transitive property to list out and compare feats. If Ms. Marvel gets knocked out by a nuclear bomb and Superman has displayed striking power ABOVE that of a nuclear bomb, would that not be transitive property to pull those equations together and come to the conclusion that Superman could knock her out? That's literally ABC logic and transitive property.

In which case you would have to provide an instance outside of any direct confrontation with any other character of note, and show Iron Man surviving something along the lines of a supernova.

And let's see another instance of Vader handling lightning powerful enough to charge a cannon which destroyed a star destroyer. After all, the transitive property doesn't apply amirite? xD

I mean I guess he did handle Sidious' lightning pretty well too, huh?

No, it is relevant as that is about the only instance which wouldn't fall under the use of the transitive property. Which isn't usable in regards to Marvel. What instances you have provided are reliant on the transitive property, and in order to prove that they are consistent with what Iron Man is actually capable of you would have to provide instances outside of confrontations against other popular characters. You are applying a no-limit fallacy, as you have to provide evidence that Iron Man has consistently contested the sort of things Darth Vader is capable of. Just having a resistance against telekinesis or telepathy is not enough. You need to show Iron Man defending against this particular scale of telekinesis, and telepathy. Which means finding things outside of the transitive property.

No. I'm not playing by your rules of the transitive property. You don't get to decide what is or isn't applicable because you do or don't like it. The transitive property is used in every battle forum whether you like it or not. In fact, you've even used it yourself.

Tony built those countermeasures to combat Graviton's gravitational abilities. In that story everyone thought that Graviton killed Gadget, so Tony built them to fight against Dr. Hall. He uses his repulsor input power, which I've already demonstrated is way above megaton level, to reinforce his armor mass. Vader isn't doing ANYTHING to Tony. Meanwhile, Iron Man casually one-shots him.

Not really impressive by Darth Vader, and Galen Marek's standards. I can even provide some calculations for Galen Marek, and his clone. I think I will grab those right about now. The rest of the scans I provided for Darth Vader, and several other characters you can find on the previous page.

LMFAO. This is so hilarious that you believe Vader is far above nuke level. That is great.

Oh no, a 10.0 on the richter scale would be much greater than that. The scene you provided is nowhere near a 10.0 earthquake. A 10.0 earthquake is akin to the toba catastrophe which negatively impacted the entire earth, and left it in a volcanic winter for 6~10 years. Something that can only destroy a city is a 7.0 or 8.0 at best, and that depends entirely on how large this city is.

First of all, you're missing the fact that Tony said the ENTIRE city would be destroyed within 30 seconds. Could a 10.0 destroy an entire city in 30 seconds? Just curious. Piggybacking off that idea, I doubt that if a 10.0 was active for 10-15 seconds (the amount of time the earthquake was active for before Tony dispelled it) it'd negatively impact the entire earth and leave it in a volcanic winter. Second of all, take a look at the size for yourself:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Either way, even if you lowball and undersell the feat to a 7.0 earthquake that's still laughably above anything Vader's ever tanked. Don't even try to tell me he could tank a nuke. Just don't.

As for Galen Marek ISD feat of changing its trajectory, and slowing its fall after it crashes from orbit. It is calculated at around 1.6 gigatons of TNT. Which is about two-hundred, and sixty-six times more impressive than six megatons of TNT, and that's assuming your speculation is correct. Which is hard to unless we know the size of the city, and the extent of the damage caused by the quake. As for Galen Marek's clones charging the fusion accelerator cannon. It was calculated at 43 teratons of TNT.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

So literally all casual Star Wars Jedi characters range in what, the megaton level? Vader and the higher end ones are basically moon level? Lmfao I've never laughed so hard after reading such a ridiculous claim and calculation. Wow. That literally made my day. I suppose we should add Thor and Hulk to the thread to make this fair, huh?

Here's arguably Iron Man's best feat:

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Busts a mountain (which is WAY above nuclear level) which is the size of Manhattan. However, the width is the size of the city. The height is taller than Everest.

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Mountain is 10.2 km tall, taller than mt. everest which is 8.85 km tall. due to that enormous size, 4-5 mountains can fit in that mountain. You wanna get those expert mathematicians to calculate how much force it would take to destroy something that size? I mean what a joke. As if it'd take teratons to blast a star destroyer in half hahahaha. Hilarious. You can't actually believe that those calculations are correct, can you?

Which is nearly half the force of the asteroid that brought the dinosaurs to extinction.

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How is Vader going to combat Tony's EMP's, magnetism, and hacking abilities which are a go-to in character move against technological opponents? Is he going to use his teraton levels of power to just turn off Tony's devices? LMFAO.

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@boogeymonster: Spider-Man restraining or defeating Iron Man is horrible writing and completely inconsistent. However, Tony has tanked hits from a pissed off Hulk consistently and even while Hulk was mind-controlled and trying to kill him. Nobody ever said that Hulk couldn't hurt Tony. He can hurt him, but he isn't getting one-shotted and it'll take several hits before there's even cosmetic damage. Let alone being damaged or KO'd. But Vader can tank 43 teratons of energy, right? So he could probably no-sell Hulk's hits anyway, right? LMFAO

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@reikai: Vader can casually tank 43 teratons worth of force, dude. He is just going to stand there and yawn while shrugging off Tony's best hits.

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Cool fight. Never would've thought of this.

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#78  Edited By Boogeymonster

@noone1996

He has the same powers as Graviton. He managed to overpower Graviton's own gravitational energies and powers. You act like he's some featless character. Just ignore that though.

As I noted before you're ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, and as I noted already it is incredibly in consistent in comic books. In order to use it you need overwhelming amounts of evidence due to the nature of the medium.

Nitpicking the ability doesn't change the fact that he resisted being crushed into the size of a billiards ball by a character with Graviton's powers. Again, the distinction between the force and gravity manipulation is irrelevant. There is no clear cut evidence that the force is magic.

It's not nitpicking when the character is literally not Graviton, and just has similar abilities. This is like equating all psychics in Marvel as being as powerful as each other because they have similar abilities. It makes no sense. It literally doubles as the afterlife in Star Wars, and there are literal branches of Sith Sorcery focusing on its mystical aspects. As seen in SWTOR, and many of the other videogames. Heck, TCW had the connotations between it and the mystic arts; that was Disney Canon. So, in both yes it has mystical aspects.

The transitive property does exist in Marvel. You just have to be careful about context. If Iron Man beat Namor who beat the Hulk that doesn't mean that Iron Man is above Hulk because it all depends on the context. Tony can beat the Sub-Mariner because he has a heat weakness that can be exploited and Namor can only beat Hulk when he's underwater and using the depths against Banner. Saying Iron Man > Namor and Namor > Hulk so that means Iron Man > Hulk is what is frowned upon. I'm not doing that here.

It doesn't exist in Marvel, and is openly dismissed even by those at the helm of it. Not that we needed them too. We already knew that comic books are notorious for their inconsistencies. The example you brought up with the Hulk was specifically a durability feat, and what you're doing is ignoring your own argument that you put forward in your last post. Yet, you have the gall to complain about context when you're conveniently forgetting what we were even arguing to begin with. That the Hulk failed to crush Iron Man's armor. So, show me an instance outside of the transitive property that shows Iron Man having the durability necessary to shrug off the crushing force of someone strong enough to destroy planets.

I find it hilarious that you are whining about the transitive property when that literally just translates to ABC logic which is what you've been doing with a bunch of other feats that characters have accomplished. "herp star wars game character did this with lightning and vader blocked/tanked it so he that strong". That's literally the same thing.

That's because Star Wars is not primarily a comic book series, and is considerably more consistent than Marvel in regards to what a character is capable of. Nor does it belong to Marvel, and Tom Brevoort has no sway or say on it. As a result of being a less expansive medium, and having less material than the entire comic book industry.

That would be the context you're ignoring?

It proves that he has gravity grip systems which can keep him attached to the ground if he needs to be. I'm not using it as a no-limits fallacy, I was just posting the feat to demonstrate his ability to do so. However, implying that the force is so unique that no form of TK could compare to it is the true NLF. Just saying.

I never once claimed, or stated as such. Now you're putting words into my mouth that were never there. You are the one claiming Iron Man's defenses can defend against any measure of telekinesis or telepathy regardless of scale. To say nothing of what's consistent for Iron Man. I never said that Darth Vader's telekinesis and telepathy could not be beaten.

Tom Brevoort used specific examples which had an underlying message about usage of ABC logic or transitive property. He was saying not to be stupid about the transitive property and not to ignore context. When Iron Man beat Molecule Man he didn't do so with his raw strength, repulsors, or power. He did so by having a stronger will and resisting the power of Molecule Man's wand which resulted in Tony beating him. Brevoort was saying that one wouldn't then say, "Iron Man > Molecule Man" just because Tony beat him in a battle of willpower. Man-Thing did the same exact thing. So again, he wasn't saying the transitive property is useless. He was saying that certain kinds of ABC logic aren't usable. That's why you use context.

No, Tom Brevoort literally says that the "transitive property has never been applied to superheroes." He is not saying you can use it, and that you can only use in specific instances. He is saying that you can't use the transitive property in order to say character is more than they actually are. Which is the whole point of why I brought that up. You can't say because the Hulk failed to crush Iron Man's helmet or that the Ghost Rider failed to use the penance stare makes sense because of that. As the transitive property has never been applied to superheroes, and you can't judge what a character is capable of by their victories over other popular characters whatever the context may be. He never states "the transitive property has been or could be used, and that I am talking about how they specifically defeated them rather than the fact that they did."

...but they don't fail? Is that not important? I guess Vader is above Jean Grey, huh?

Dodging the question, and failing to answer my inquiry. What the issue number, where is the rest of the scene, and is it canon?

No, I actually just drew it myself. It's from Contest of Champions II.

How about an actual answer instead of continuing your attempts to dodge the question?

This is by far the weakest strategy that I've ever seen for lowballing and underselling feats lmfao. Transitive property this and transitive property that. Lol. Why actually examine or analyze feats when you can just shrug off anything that actually involves other powerful characters? No, it wasn't Dark Phoenix and no she didn't use the power of a supernova.

Then why are you bringing it up, using a scan where Rogue notes she has the power of the Phoenix, and are acting as if Iron Man deflected the entire brunt of what Jean Grey is capable of? Then how much psionic power did Rogue use here? If you don't have a concrete answer for that then this instance becomes unquantifiable, and impossible to know the scale of.

You HAVE to use the transitive property to list out and compare feats. If Ms. Marvel gets knocked out by a nuclear bomb and Superman has displayed striking power ABOVE that of a nuclear bomb, would that not be transitive property to pull those equations together and come to the conclusion that Superman could knock her out? That's literally ABC logic and transitive property.

No, you don't. You can use individual instances, and feats outsides of fights in order to determine their capability. A nuclear bomb is not a character, and therefore wouldn't fall under the transitive property. Superman hitting with the force of a nuclear bomb is the narrative explaining his capabilities, or an instance of destruction we see that he causes. What Tom was talking about were fights, and victories. Such as Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos.

And let's see another instance of Vader handling lightning powerful enough to charge a cannon which destroyed a star destroyer. After all, the transitive property doesn't apply amirite? xD

I mean I guess he did handle Sidious' lightning pretty well too, huh?

This is a straw man on your part. I brought that up to show durable Darth Vader was, and that he could withstand Galen Marek's 2.0's force lightning. Which is ignoring that this is false equivalence as Star Wars, and Marvel are different. More importantly, that Tom Brevoort has no sway or say over the former.

The transitive property applies in Star Wars. It doesn't apply in Marvel, and most comic books in general due to how inconsistent they can be.

No. I'm not playing by your rules of the transitive property. You don't get to decide what is or isn't applicable because you do or don't like it. The transitive property is used in every battle forum whether you like it or not. In fact, you've even used it yourself.

Yes, but that's because there is no one at the helm of Star Wars or Disney saying that the transitive property does not exist inside of them. You are treating Marvel, and comic books in general as the same as any other medium. When they are so huge, have so many writers and artists, and so many branching storylines that as a medium it is rife with countless inconsistencies.

Tony built those countermeasures to combat Graviton's gravitational abilities. In that story everyone thought that Graviton killed Gadget, so Tony built them to fight against Dr. Hall. He uses his repulsor input power, which I've already demonstrated is way above megaton level, to reinforce his armor mass. Vader isn't doing ANYTHING to Tony. Meanwhile, Iron Man casually one-shots him.

You have not demonstrated as such, and failed to provided a proper calculation for that earth quake feat. Which you assumed the scale of based on literally nothing. As I already made clear Darth Vader is going is far above that, and it's not going to do a lick of anything to actually hurt him. Iron Man cannot one-shot him, and he is going to have some difficulty putting down Darth Vader here.

LMFAO. This is so hilarious that you believe Vader is far above nuke level. That is great.

You are the one shooting for Iron Man being too durable for the Hulk to hurt, and comparing a city destroying earthquake to an earthquake that can ravage the entire planet.

First of all, you're missing the fact that Tony said the ENTIRE city would be destroyed within 30 seconds. Could a 10.0 destroy an entire city in 30 seconds? Just curious. Piggybacking off that idea, I doubt that if a 10.0 was active for 10-15 seconds (the amount of time the earthquake was active for before Tony dispelled it) it'd negatively impact the entire earth and leave it in a volcanic winter. Second of all, take a look at the size for yourself:

No, I am not. You do not understand understand the scale of earthquakes, and you are failing to understand that what you are claiming it would have ravaged the entire planet. It did not, and instead what damage we see do before it is stopped is nowhere near as much as an earthquake on a 10.0 of the richter scale would be. You are making broad claims with little reasoning behind them, and assuming a scale based on the speculation of the scale of damage.

Either way, even if you lowball and undersell the feat to a 7.0 earthquake that's still laughably above anything Vader's ever tanked. Don't even try to tell me he could tank a nuke. Just don't.

It is laughably below the most impressive things Darth Vader has survived as I have already noted. He most certainly can going by the calculations I have provided, and the fact he could endure the entire brunt of Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning supports that.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

So literally all casual Star Wars Jedi characters range in what, the megaton level? Vader and the higher end ones are basically moon level? Lmfao I've never laughed so hard after reading such a ridiculous claim and calculation. Wow. That literally made my day. I suppose we should add Thor and Hulk to the thread to make this fair, huh?

Once again, you are failing to understand scale here. The most of what we see at forty teratons of tnt is not enough to destroy the moon, and it is nowhere near approaching the gbe of our moon. Which is 1.24e29j. You are exaggerating for the sake of a style over substance argument, and I personally think Darth Vader would lose against either Thor or Hulk. As they have feats outside of the transitive property that show they can easily defeat him.

Iron Man does not.

Darth Vader is not on the scale of say Darth Nihilus who can destroy all life on a planet with a single word, or Naga Sadow with the corsair which can destroy suns. Nor say someone with the darkstaff.

Here's arguably Iron Man's best feat:

Busts a mountain (which is WAY above nuclear level) which is the size of Manhattan. However, the width is the size of the city. The height is taller than Everest.

While impressive that is not one the scale of what we're discussing here. What I provided was in the gigatons of TNT, and what have you. Which is enough to destroy entire islands. As well as the fusion accelerator instance which was in the teratons of tnt.

Mountain is 10.2 km tall, taller than mt. everest which is 8.85 km tall. due to that enormous size, 4-5 mountains can fit in that mountain. You wanna get those expert mathematicians to calculate how much force it would take to destroy something that size? I mean what a joke. As if it'd take teratons to blast a star destroyer in half hahahaha. Hilarious. You can't actually believe that those calculations are correct, can you?

No, it wasn't based on the destruction of the ISD. It was based on the official energy output of an ISD's force field. Which Galen Marek's clone had to break through in order for the fusion accelerator cannon to blow it up. Galen Marek only took fifteen seconds to charge it, after which he fired the fusion accelerator cannon. Going by this you haven't actually read the calculations I went out of my to provide for you. Since you haven't read them I will post the whole calculations.

CT123 said:

What sort of shielding does the ISD have though?

Let's compare how other ships handle this kind of shit.

The Acclamator I-class Assault Ship

Imperial I-class Star Destroyer

Power Output of ISD = 7.73 x 10^24 watts

Power Output of Acclamator I-class Assault Ship = 2 x 10^23 watts

Maximum Shielding of Acclamator I-class Assault Ship = 7 x 10^22 watts

Acclamator Shield/Acclamator Power = 0.35

Now assuming that between ships that the shield to power output ratio is similar?

Maximum Shielding of ISD = 2.7055 x 10^24 watts

Which means...

Fusion Accelerator Cannon Empowered By Starkiller Clone = 2.7055 x 10^24 joules

And it was charged for...

Time Frame for Charging Cannon = 15 seconds

Meaning his general firepower is...

Starkiller Clone's Force Lightning Energy = 180,366,666,666,666,700,000,000 joules or 43.109 teratons

As for the crashing ISD.

CT123 said:

He TK'saStar Destroyer

Another rendition.

Howithappenedinthecanonnovel.

So, as it happened in the novel, and is reflected by the comic version of events, the Star Destroyer gets released into free fall above Raxus Prime after that large space station was destroyed. Starkiller in both novel and comic controls its landing so that it ends up colliding with some big ass cannon. The video game in gameplay seems to portray the ship as having briefly engaged Galen Marek, but seeing as those events don't occur in the novel, I'll assume that bit isn't canon and just work with the ending cutscene that appears to corroborate with the novel's interpretation of events.

The free fall as seen in the game. The final shove to the ground for the Star Destroyer before destroying the cannon as seen in the game.

On with the calc.

Spoiler:

No Caption Provided

Star Destroyer Length = 1041 pixels

Star Destroyer Width = 576 pixels

Star Destroyer Width/Star Destroyer Length = 0.553

Star Destroyer Length = 1,600 meters

Star Destroyer Width = 884.8 meters

Star Destroyer Length = 1039 pixels

Star Destroyer Height = 190 pixels

Star Destroyer Height/Star Destroyer Length = 0.183

Star Destroyer Length = 1,600 meters

Star Destroyer Height = 292.8 meters

Volume = 0.2(LWH/3)

Star Destroyer Volume = 27,634,073.6 m^3

Steel Density = 7,800 kg/m^3

Star Destroyer Mass = 215,545,774,080 kilograms

As we can see here? I'm likely low balling the mass by assuming 80% of the volume is empty space.

So... given it's fall height, it's fairly obvious that, by the time we see it here, it's traveling at terminal velocity.

So, how do I find said velocity?

Equation

Acceleration Due to Gravity = 11.76 m/s^2 (Raxus Prime is 1.2 G)

Drag Coeffecient = 0.5 (a cone is approximately the shape of it here)

Air Density = 1.225 kg/m^3

Surface Area = (Star Destroyer Height*Star Destroyer Width)/2 = 129,534.72 m^2

Terminal Velocity of Star Destroyer = 7,993.597 m/s

As we see here, again, he forces the ship to the ground about as fast as it is falling horizontally, so it's fairly safe to say he at least moved it at the ship's terminal velocity.

So...

KE = 0.5mv^2

Galen Marek's Telekinetic Energy = 6,886,428,072,000,000,000 joules or 1.646 gigatons

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#79  Edited By Boogeymonster
@noone1996 said:

@boogeymonster: Spider-Man restraining or defeating Iron Man is horrible writing and completely inconsistent. However, Tony has tanked hits from a pissed off Hulk consistently and even while Hulk was mind-controlled and trying to kill him. Nobody ever said that Hulk couldn't hurt Tony. He can hurt him, but he isn't getting one-shotted and it'll take several hits before there's even cosmetic damage. Let alone being damaged or KO'd. But Vader can tank 43 teratons of energy, right? So he could probably no-sell Hulk's hits anyway, right? LMFAO

Yet another straw man based on you misunderstanding scale here, and the fact you are straight up ignoring the context of what Tom Brevoort said in order for it to fit into your narrative. So, you can apply the transitive property when he specifically states it has never been applied to superheores, and that you can't use fights to say one character is as powerful or more powerful than another based on fights and victories. You outright noted that the Hulk couldn't crush Iron Man's helmet, and did not say that the Hulk could. Now you're changing your story, and back tracking. No, Darth Vader cannot no-sell the Hulk's hits because the Hulk is strong enough to rupture the fabric of dimensions with thunderclaps and destroy planets. Which is far above teratons of tnt. Which is nowhere near destroying the moon let alone destroying a planet or a large planet.

It takes twenty-nine exatons of tnt to destroy the moon, and fifty-seven zettatons of tnt to destroy the earth.

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#82  Edited By reikai
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I guess Luke must've pushed with more than 42teratons of Force to throw Vader off the edge.

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And I guess Vader's suit must be weaker than those Hand Rails since a lightsaber couldn't cut them, but could cut Vader's hand off just fine.

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Lmfao. ABC logic only works in the Star Warsverse. Such a damn hypocrite.

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Lmfao. ABC logic only works in the Star Warsverse. Such a damn hypocrite.

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@boogeymonster: And you just proved how completely off you are about everything by trying to compare it to Vampire Hunter D. You don't even know the scope of the landmine you just stepped on. Not only is SW vastly technologically inferior to VHD, but the abilities present in VHD make the entirety of SW lore pale in comparison.

Not only has everything you said been complete and utter nonsense, but it's completely pointless given that any skilled enough individual can murder and take down Force Users. Not only has this happened countless times in Legends, but HK-47 did a wonderful job of explaining all the ways you can liquify those meatbags.

Loading Video...

No matter the amount of crap logic and made up numbers you use to try and hype SW and Vader, nothing they've done even comes close to what Graviton has done. Whom we know Tony can resist.

No Caption Provided

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#87  Edited By Boogeymonster

@hyqe said:

@noone1996 said:

Lmfao. ABC logic only works in the Star Warsverse. Such a damn hypocrite.

No Caption Provided

Hey RealityWarper, you decided to make another dupe?

@noone1996

Lmfao. ABC logic only works in the Star Warsverse. Such a damn hypocrite.

Nope, ABC logic works in a lot of series. In say Dragonball, and Marvel it doesn't. In the latter case because it's outright noted not to, and we can't ignore that both Marvel and DC are rife with inconsistencies. In the former case Son Goku has had trouble fighting Arale Norimaki, and taking that seriously is a laugh. In DC, the most egregious is Batman who is able to defeat Wonder Woman consistently. As well as the Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman with his standard equipment. He does that consistently but it doesn't change how ridiculous it is, and how little sense it makes. I never said Star Wars was the only series it applies to. It is easy to apply the transitive property when a series isn't as large, and is not specifically noted by people at the helm of it to not be a thing.

You could definitely apply the transitive property in say The Stranger of Sword City or a series that is self contained and doesn't interact with others in cross-overs. Say, for example, Luther Strode.

I am not being a hypocrite here. I am noting that Marvel, and DC are different than most in regards to this.

@reikai said:
No Caption Provided

That's interesting because the only liar I see here is you. We are discussing Legends here, and not Disney. Nice of you to ignore that, and even then what you posted is ignoring a particularly large brunt of Disney Canon. Such as Darth Vader force crushing an AT-AT Walker, and surviving a humongous explosion that destroyed a large facility.

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As for Legends I already provided many, many instances showing why what you brought up doesn't make sense.

I guess Luke must've pushed with more than 42teratons of Force to throw Vader off the edge.

Are you going to seriously argue collateral damage or the lack thereof when the same can be done for Iron Man, and D in order to downplay their capabilities?

And I guess Vader's suit must be weaker than those Hand Rails since a lightsaber couldn't cut them, but could cut Vader's hand off just fine.

Which is ignoring that in Star Wars we have metals such as durasteel which is much stronger than steel, and phrik which is durable enough that it is considered nearly indestructible. Magnaguard staves for example were made out of phrik, and so were Darth Sidious's lightsabers during his apprenticeship to Darth Plagueis

As for the Legends feats I mentioned.

@boogeymonster said:

So, talking about Legends we have:

Jaden Korr reacting to, and slapping a laser back at a scout ship after it's already been fired.

He fell into the Force as the scout ship’s wings flared and the weapons fired. To him, events seemed to slow. The lines of the ship’s lasers extended outward from its guns, slowly reaching across space, crayon lines drawn by an invisible child.

In the Force, he sensed the trajectory of the blasts, the line of their approach. His lightsaber spun through space, the Force-augmented motion stressing the hardsuit. The shots slammed into the yellow line of his blade, and he deflected them back at the ship’s cockpit. They split the space between them and knifed into the cockpit, which exploded into flame. The scout ship, bleeding smoke, streaked toward the pod.

-- Star Wars: Riptide

Darth Vader stopping one of I-Five's lasers, and just for reference I-Five outright refers to his lasers as light-speed, citing it down to the kilometer.

I-Five's laser, and his statement on it.

Jax shrugged. "It makes no difference if it's the sixth one or the first one that kills you. Dead is dead. "

"I wouldn't know. I do know, however, ", I-Five said, "that you're much better with that sword than you think you are. "

Jax glanced down at the weapon, saw his disorted reflection looking back at him from the blade's surface. "Yeah? How do you know th---?"

I-Five suddenly whipped up his left hand, index finger extended, and fired a laser beam at Jax. The beam splashed off the ionized fire that suddenly coated the length of the blade, which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam.

"That's how," I-Five said, "The speed of light is just under three hundred thousand kilometers per second. You are currently seven-point-three meters from me. Your Force-augmented anticipatory reflex action is obviously working fine. You just have to let it."

-- Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows

Darth Vader reacting to, and stopping I-Five's laser in mid-air with his telekinesis.

"Tell the droid to give me the bota, Pavan."

"The droid doesn't have it," said I-Five suddenly. Both hands came up in a lethal gesture, lasers firing. The beams sliced toward Vader . . . and stopped mere centimeters from his outstretched hand.

-- Coruscant Nights III: Patterns Of The Force

These two aren't faster than light but they do show that even Sith Acolytes can react, and attack within microseconds.

Darth Bane as a Sith Acolyte training with Fohargh.

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Another instance of Darth Bane training with Kas'im.

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Vestara Khai's showing of reacting within a nanosecond.

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Sarasu Taalon's showing of reacting within a nanosecond, and blocking a blast from a longshot after the fact with his bare hand. Mind you, that was after his dip in the Pool of Knowledge.

Come now, Master Skywalker. Taalon’s voice reached Luke more inside his mind than in his ears—a simple enough Force trick, but nonetheless one that sent a chill down Luke’s back. There will be time enough for that after we talk.

Luke replied in a normal speaking voice. “You expect me to come down?”

Well, you haven’t blasted me yet, Taalon countered.

Luke pressed the trigger and held it down—then felt his jaw drop as bolts began to ricochet off the High Lord’s palm. It wasn’t the deflection of blasterfire with a bare hand that shocked him—he had fought plenty of Sith capable of that trick. What amazed Luke was the speed with which Taalon had moved. In the nanosecond it had taken the first bolt to cross the distance between them, the High Lord’s hand had risen to deflect it, traveling so fast that the appendage had literally seemed to disappear from one place and reappear in another.

After tolerating the volley for a couple of seconds, Taalon grew weary of defending himself and crooked a finger. Luke tightened his grasp on the longblaster, expecting to feel it being ripped from his hands through the Force. Instead he found himself sliding out of his hiding place and tumbling through the air as he dropped toward the beach.

Luke tossed the longblaster aside and snatched his lightsaber, then quickly used the Force to right himself before he reached the beach. But Taalon did not hurl him into the sand, or even attempt to send him flying into Gavar Khai’s scarlet blade. He merely dropped Luke to the ground at a distance of five meters, then motioned for Khai to put his weapon away.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

There also the time when Abeloth was able to act within the time-frame of a nanosecond, and attack Luke Skywalker so quickly that a nanosecond was barely enough time for him to dodge her attack.

He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first. Luke tucked his chin and managed to flip to his back before he hit the stone floor. Abeloth was on top of him, her flesh blistered and smoking, her remaining leg entwining both of his, her remaining arm wrapped around the back of his neck.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Also, in the Revenge of the Sith novelization we see that even MagnaGuards have reflexes that operate near light-speed.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hyper-sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting.

He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him. In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away. He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.

-- Revenge of the Sith

Darth Vader should have no problem in regards to speed.

@boogeymonster said:

As for offense, telekinesis, and telepathy.

Darth Vader can use force scream, and it's powerful enough to melt durasteel.

Another roar from Vader. Part of the ceiling gave way. Durasteel melted, smoke rose from the debris. Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.

- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning

As well as shake entire buildings.

Vader’s reaction was not what he’d expected. After a frozen instant, ignoring the bloody spittle running down one plasteel cheek, he knelt and grabbed Typho by the hair, lifting the latter’s head and eliciting a cry of renewed pain from him.

“What?” The flare in the Force that raced through the hangar was enough to shake the foundations of the building. The Dark Lord actually seemed to grow, to expand and become more terrible in his rage than Typho would have believed possible.

- Coruscant Nights II: Streets Of Shadows

While on the subject on Coruscant Nights he was also able to reduce Nick Rostu--a force sensitive--into a vegetative state.

“You want me to find Jax Pavan for you,” Nick said. “I won’t do it.” His voice shook a little, but he got the words out.

Vader stepped closer to him. "I think you will. In fact, I know you will. You are brave; your record makes that clear. You do not fear death." He raised his left hand, index finger slightly extended, as if making a point. "But there are far worse things than mere death ...".

And before Nick realized what was going on, the Dark Lord was somehow inside his head, a dark shadow interrupting the flow of his thoughts. The shadow seemed to expand...Nick screamed, and fell into a blackness even more perfect than the eyes of Darth Vader.

...

Rhinann took Nick Rostu down to the hangar bay. Rostu was conscious, but silent, staring into the distance. Rhinann had become somewhat familiar with human facial expressions and body language, and he could tell that Rostu had seen or heard something that had nearly stunned him into a vegetative state. Rhinann shuddered, trying not to think about what horrors Vader had imparted to the human. Whatever they had been, they had left him in such shock that the forcecuffs he was wearing seemed almost superfluous.

...

His mind felt like it had been punched full of holes—holes that let conscious thoughts drain from it as fast as they popped into existence. Or maybe it was just that the thoughts were too horrible to hold on to for any length of time.

...

It was the human, Rostu, who had been the stick that broke the bantha’s back. After Rhinann had sent him on his way in the freighter, the Elomin had had time to speculate on whatever Vader had done to him to cause such a state of fear and despair in a hardened guerrilla warrior.

- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

There's crushing giant robots with the force.

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Darth Vader can use force crush on someone's heart. Specifically, a Jedi in this case.

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Darth Vader force bitch slaps a giant beast.

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Also, more on that.

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He is able to lift and throw a giant mining vehicle.

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As well as crush tie-fighters.

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In terms of durability Darth Vader has consistently survived Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning. Which is powerful enough to disintegrate stormtroopers and power the fusion accelerator canon of an ISD. Oh, and destroy heavy vehicles such as AT-AT Walkers.

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawledup and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right armstrained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm. But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong. Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

- The Force Unleashed 2

And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

- The Force Unleashed 2

@boogeymonster said:

Going to note that even your average Jedi Knight like Rivi-Anu can temporarily stop a crashing venator-class star destroyer, and Darth Vader is far above your average Jedi Knight. Rivi-Anu who was the padawan of Ki-Adi-Mundi. Ki-Adi-Mundi who along with Shaak Ti got beaten by General Grievous, and General Grievous who got beaten by Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Taken from Clone Wars Adventures vol. 6

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#89  Edited By Boogeymonster

@reikai

And you just proved how completely off you are about everything by trying to compare it to Vampire Hunter D. You don't even know the scope of the landmine you just stepped on. Not only is SW vastly technologically inferior to VHD, but the abilities present in VHD make the entirety of SW lore pale in comparison.

I am not even arguing Vampire Hunter D versus Star Wars, and I just brought up that example to note your double standards. As if you scrutinized Vampire Hunter D with any measure of the same obsession you do with Star Wars it would be nowhere near as powerful as you falsely claim that it is. Such as things as damning as D failing to survive atmospheric decompression unscathed. Which you wouldn't ignore if you treated Vampire Hunter D with the same consideration you do Star Wars.

“Suddenly, D was beyond the earth’s atmosphere. His remaining oxygen swelled his lungs to the point of bursting, and his blood boiled.

“Can you make the cut?” the left hand inquired in a voice he shouldn’t have been able to hear. “Valcua did it. We’ve got no earth, water, fire, or air. But this might be your best chance. Even without a Glencalibur, you of all people could probably do it.”

It was unclear what D thought of that inaudible voice, but he raised his blade. Watching over him was nothing save the pitch-black void of space and the stars of the Milky Way a thousand light-years distant.

D’s eyes were ablaze, burning with the color of blood. Not saying a word, D swung his right arm. Simultaneously, his lungs exploded.”

-- Vampire Hunter D, Vol. 17: Tyrant’s Stars, Pts. 3 & 4.

As well as such important facts such as what actually happened in Fortress of the Elder God.

Guess what it has to say about what happened?

https://ibb.co/mwjYrF

D himself notes that everything in the playground is an illusion, and guess when he "absorbs" the milky way?

https://ibb.co/nxdJrF

While he is in the playground. Which explains why the scene was so surreal. It wasn't even actually happening.

Then guess what happens after this?

https://ibb.co/guqnka

https://ibb.co/bWijWF

D absorbs a force field drawing energy from the rotation of the Milky Way. Which means D couldn't have possibly absorbed the Milky Way galaxy. As if he did this force field would have deactivated. It wasn't absorbing the whole of it either. As otherwise the Milky Way galaxy wouldn't be rotating.

It notes that only the Sacred Ancestor can break through it with brute force and not even the God--who is never referred to as Cthulhu, and is instead a flimsy expy of said Great Old One--can break through it. So, even something that can't break through a force field drawing energy from the rotation of the galaxy can exhaust the Sacred Ancestor. Who the Sacred Ancestor failed to permanently destroy.

Not only has everything you said been complete and utter nonsense, but it's completely pointless given that any skilled enough individual can murder and take down Force Users. Not only has this happened countless times in Legends, but HK-47 did a wonderful job of explaining all the ways you can liquify those meatbags.

HK-47 did a wonderful job of explaining how force users can't be taken down with conventional means, that plans are useless against them because of their precognition, that in order to take them down you need to use heavy explosive ordinance, a combination of overwhelming firepower and numbers. Did you even listen to half the things HK-47 was talking about? He even notes that Darth Revan had to personally train people in order to stand a chance against force users, and defend against their psychic attacks. That they couldn't so normally without Darth Revan's assistance, and had a ridiculous amount of training making them blatantly superhuman. To say nothing of cybernetic enhancements, and what have you.

No matter the amount of crap logic and made up numbers you use to try and hype SW and Vader, nothing they've done even comes close to what Graviton has done. Whom we know Tony can resist.

No, we don't because Paragon and Graviton are not the same person. Having similar abilities does not make you are powerful as someone else. That's like saying Peridot from Steven Universe is as powerful as Magneto because they both use magnetism. Which is ignoring that there are characters with better feats than Graviton in Star Wars.

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#91  Edited By Boogeymonster
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@hyqe said:

@boogeymonster: ABC logic doesn't apply just to SW.

RealityWarper it is, and I never said it did. I said it didn't apply to Marvel, most comic books in general because of how large a medium it is, how inconsistent they can be, and the fact those at the helm note that it has never been applied with superheroes. Whereas there are no such statements made regarding Star Wars.

Nor many other franchises such as the Stranger of Sword City, The Elder Scrolls, and many others in the greater scheme of things.

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#94  Edited By hyqe

@boogeymonster said:
@hyqe said:

@boogeymonster: ABC logic doesn't apply just to SW.

RealityWarper it is,

What is that ?

and I never said it did. I said it didn't apply to Marvel, most comic books in general because of how large a medium it is, how inconsistent they can be, and the fact those at the helm note that it has never been applied with superheroes. Whereas there are no such statements made regarding Star Wars.

Nor many other franchises such as the Stranger of Sword City, The Elder Scrolls, and many others in the greater scheme of things.

Then your logic is that the ABC logic doesn't apply in Star Wars published by Marvel but this apply when the series are published by other publishers ? Please clarify.

You said:

"This is ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, as noted by Tom Brevoort. You have to prove that these sonic waves are powerful enough that it makes sense for Wonder Man to be knocked down by them. Which means getting individual instances where we see the destruction caused by these sonic waves rather than instances over other characters."

No Caption Provided

Star Wars = Marvel

No Caption Provided

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#95  Edited By Boogeymonster

@hyqe

What is that ?

A stalker of mine with a tendency of creating dupes, and feigning ignorance of his behavior.

The fact you even parroted something I said to him over at KMC just makes it all the more obvious.

Then your logic is that the ABC logic doesn't apply in Star Wars published by Marvel but this apply when the series are published by other publishers ? Please clarify.

Nope, Star Wars is owned by Disney at this point and Tom Brevoort has no sway or say in it. Nor is Star Wars a part of Marvel's overarching universe. Which you're ignoring. The publisher does not matter here. The authority on Star Wars is Leland Chee.

"This is ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, as noted by Tom Brevoort. You have to prove that these sonic waves are powerful enough that it makes sense for Wonder Man to be knocked down by them. Which means getting individual instances where we see the destruction caused by these sonic waves rather than instances over other characters."

No Caption Provided

Yes, that is exactly what I said because as I noted there Tom Breevoort says that "the transitive property has never applied to super heroes." Which means it doesn't exist in Marvel. If the transitive property were to be taken seriously despite this we would have things such as ridiculously faster than light, and galaxy destroying Squirrel Girl. That is the problem with comic book publishers that have grown as large as Marvel.

Star Wars = Marvel

No, Star Wars belongs to Disney and the likes of Tom Brevoort has no say or sway in its canon or how it works. That's Leland Chee you're thinking of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars

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#96  Edited By hyqe

@boogeymonster said:

@hyqe

A stalker of mine with a tendency of creating dupes, and feigning ignorance of his behavior.

The fact you even parroted something I said to him over at KMC just makes it all the more obvious.

Are you high ?

Nope, Star Wars is owned by Disney at this point and Tom Brevoort has no sway or say in it. Nor is Star Wars a part of Marvel's overarching universe. Which you're ignoring. The publisher does not matter here. The authority on Star Wars is Leland Chee.

"This is ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, as noted by Tom Brevoort. You have to prove that these sonic waves are powerful enough that it makes sense for Wonder Man to be knocked down by them. Which means getting individual instances where we see the destruction caused by these sonic waves rather than instances over other characters."

No Caption Provided

Yes, that is exactly what I said because as I noted there Tom Breevoort says that "the transitive property has never applied to super heroes." Which it means it doesn't exist in Marvel. If the transitive property were to be taken seriously despite this we would have things such as ridiculously faster than light, and galaxy destroying Squirrel Girl. That is the problem with comic book publishers that have grown as large as Marvel.

That's the third time you said that the transitive property doesn't exist in Marvel and you agreed that SW is part of Marvel.

The movies and the comics are not managed by the same services.

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#97  Edited By Boogeymonster

@hyqe said:

That's the third time you said that the transitive property doesn't exist in Marvel and you agreed that SW is part of Marvel.

No, I did not I said that Star Wars is not a part of its multiverse. This is akin to saying Frozen or How to Train Your Dragon is a part of it. As before anything else Disney owns Star Wars, and it has it own universe.

Hellsing is published by DC but that doesn't mean it is a part of its universe for example.

The movies and the comics are not managed by the same services.

They are managed by the same gut, Leland Chee, who manages Disney Canon and Legends Canon. As for Disney Canon this is what it consists of which includes the films, novelizations, and comic books after Disney got ownership of it:

http://www.geek.com/culture/the-current-canonical-star-wars-timeline-1683840/

As for Legends canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Legends

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@hyqe said:

That's the third time you said that the transitive property doesn't exist in Marvel and you agreed that SW is part of Marvel.

No, I did not I said and Star Wars is not a part of its multiverse. This is akin to saying Frozen or How to Train Your Dragon is a part of it. As before anything else Disney owns Star Wars, and it has it own universe.

Hellsing is published by DC but that doesn't mean it is a part of its universe for example.

http://marvel.com/comics/events/327/star_wars

I don't see why Star Wars would be an exception.

No Caption Provided

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Boogeymonster

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#99  Edited By Boogeymonster

@hyqe said:

@boogeymonster said:
@hyqe said:

That's the third time you said that the transitive property doesn't exist in Marvel and you agreed that SW is part of Marvel.

No, I did not I said and Star Wars is not a part of its multiverse. This is akin to saying Frozen or How to Train Your Dragon is a part of it. As before anything else Disney owns Star Wars, and it has it own universe.

Hellsing is published by DC but that doesn't mean it is a part of its universe for example.

http://marvel.com/comics/events/327/star_wars

I don't see why Star Wars would be an exception.

No Caption Provided

As I already noted Leland Chee is the one who manages Disney Canon, and Legends Canon. As for Disney Canon this is what it consists of which includes the films, novelizations, and comic books after Disney got ownership of it:

http://www.geek.com/culture/the-current-canonical-star-wars-timeline-1683840/

As for Legends canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Legends

This not about making an exception. Star Wars is not a part of Marvel's multiverse. Just like Hellsing isn't a part of DC.

https://comicbookrealm.com/series/6766/0/hellsing

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Noone1996

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As I noted before you're ignoring that the transitive property does not exist in Marvel, and as I noted already it is incredibly in consistent in comic books. In order to use it you need overwhelming amounts of evidence due to the nature of the medium.

Just because you misunderstood the opinion of ONE editor from Marvel, that doesn't mean that this is some sort of established Commandment in battle forum debates. The fact that you are so desperately arguing this point just shows the level of desperation you have.

It's not nitpicking when the character is literally not Graviton, and just has similar abilities. This is like equating all psychics in Marvel as being as powerful as each other because they have similar abilities. It makes no sense. It literally doubles as the afterlife in Star Wars, and there are literal branches of Sith Sorcery focusing on its mystical aspects. As seen in SWTOR, and many of the other videogames. Heck, TCW had the connotations between it and the mystic arts; that was Disney Canon. So, in both yes it has mystical aspects.

The gravitational anomaly is similar enough to TK and the force that none of what you say about "magic", which isn't backed up by any CONCRETE confirmations, is relevant. You are the poster child for irony and hypcrisy. Calling me out for using ABC logic and no-limits fallacies while implying and using them yourself. Since the force doesn't exist in any other universe, I guess no outside universe can truly resist it can they? Since they've never encountered anything quite as unique? No matter what feats of resistance they have against TK?

It doesn't exist in Marvel, and is openly dismissed even by those at the helm of it.

Again... Because ONE editor made a vague statement about it? That means it just does not exist at all? Period? Lmfao.

Brevoort said that ABC logic doesn't work when you use it by saying, "Iron Man > Molecule Man because Tony beat him once in a battle of will". He was pointing out that INAPPROPRIATE use of the transitive property is what shouldn't be used. If I posted a feat of Thor busting a planet, does that make the feat irrelevant? He can't one-shot Darth Vader because "herp teh transuhteeve propurtee not work".

Not that we needed them too. We already knew that comic books are notorious for their inconsistencies.

That's one thing we can agree on. However, you don't just completely ignore every single feat ever performed because it can be inconsistent at times. You don't just completely shrug off ABC logic. You carefully examine what is and isn't consistent and use them based on that. Spider-Man defeating Firelord is inconsistent for his power level so people ignore that feat. Same thing when he fodderized Iron Man.

The example you brought up with the Hulk was specifically a durability feat, and what you're doing is ignoring your own argument that you put forward in your last post. Yet, you have the gall to complain about context when you're conveniently forgetting what we were even arguing to begin with. That the Hulk failed to crush Iron Man's armor. So, show me an instance outside of the transitive property that shows Iron Man having the durability necessary to shrug off the crushing force of someone strong enough to destroy planets.

You have already proven that you are going to be irrational about any and all feats I post, so what's the point of wasting my time uploading more images? Tony has CONSISTENTLY tanked hits from high tier characters. The amount of force that they can dish out is incredible. Count Nefaria, Hercules, Thor, Hulk, Loki, Grey Gargoyle, Wonder Man, Ultron, Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, MODOK, Thing, Hulk-Buster armors, etc. RARELY does he ever get one-shotted by characters like these.

Secondly, I NEVER said that Hulk couldn't break Iron Man's armor. I said that he's failed to. It's a vague and open ended statement and I admit that I should have been more specific about what I meant. I NEVER said he would try and try and just fail or give up after awhile. He has grabbed and attempted to crush Tony's helmet several times and he struggled to damage it after trying for several seconds. Could he do it after awhile? Absolutely, but resisting his grip for even 30 seconds is impressive. FAR more impressive than ANYTHING Vader can do.

Your underselling of feats is just ridiculous. "Give me an example that doesn't involve ABC logic". Do you hear yourself? That is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read. If I show you Iron Man's armor withstanding black hole pressures and I apply that here, that's STILL USING THE TRANSITIVE PROPERTY!!!! You are lazily shrugging off and ignoring Iron Man's feats by picking on the transitive property which is literally the ONLY WAY YOU CAN COMPARE FEATS OR ARGUE IN A BATTLE FORUM. Lmfao.

That's because Star Wars is not primarily a comic book series, and is considerably more consistent than Marvel in regards to what a character is capable of. Nor does it belong to Marvel, and Tom Brevoort has no sway or say on it. As a result of being a less expansive medium, and having less material than the entire comic book industry. That would be the context you're ignoring?

Star Wars can use ABC logic because it's more consistent than Marvel? Right. So why is it that Vader tanked 43 teratons worth of energy with lightning, but while he was Anakin Skywalker he got taken out EFFORTLESSLY by Count Dooku's lightning in the movies. Now, this is the part where you'll say, "HERP WE TALKING BOUT COMICS AND EU VERSHONS! NOT MOVEES!" But it's all canon, right? So that's still an example of inconsistency. The fact that the original characters from the movies are written at a WAY weaker power level than the comics alone proves how inconsistent the Star Wars verse truly is. Especially when the movies, comics, and novels all mix together as canon.

Either way, again, you don't just straight up ignore ALL feats in an entire fictional universe because things can be inconsistent at times! That's absolutely ridiculous! You look at what's consistent and inconsistent and ignore the bad feats and keep the good ones. Iron Man once brought Thanos to his knees with his repulsors. That was ONE time. Meanwhile, Thanos has basically no-sold energy blasts from Silver Surfer, Odin, Jack of Hearts, Thor, etc. so Iron Man knocking Thanos down with his energy projection, which is whimpy in comparison to heralds and Skyfathers, IS INCONSISTENT AND BAD WRITING! You don't just ignore everything. You have to carefully examine feats. This is just like those fools who think that all classic feats should be shrugged off because things were sometimes goofy back then. It's not productive because not everything was bad writing or inconsistent back then.

I never once claimed, or stated as such. Now you're putting words into my mouth that were never there. You are the one claiming Iron Man's defenses can defend against any measure of telekinesis or telepathy regardless of scale. To say nothing of what's consistent for Iron Man. I never said that Darth Vader's telekinesis and telepathy could not be beaten.

No I didn't. I used Graviton and Jean Grey as the standard. If you think Vader is above them, then that's your delusion.

No, Tom Brevoort literally says that the "transitive property has never been applied to superheroes." He is not saying you can use it, and that you can only use in specific instances. He is saying that you can't use the transitive property in order to say character is more than they actually are. Which is the whole point of why I brought that up.

...but then he goes on to give SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of why transitive property shouldn't be used. You can't just ignore the examples he used. I'm not using the transitive property in that way.

You can't say because the Hulk failed to crush Iron Man's helmet or that the Ghost Rider failed to use the penance stare makes sense because of that. As the transitive property has never been applied to superheroes, and you can't judge what a character is capable of by their victories over other popular characters whatever the context may be.

What are you talking about? Of course you can use that kind of logic as long as it makes sense. If it's proven to be inconsistent or ridiculous (like female Thor beating up Odin) then we simply ignore it. If Thor one-shotted Abomination would it be unreasonable to assume that he could one-shot Spider-Man? That's the transitive property and it actually works. You are not only shrugging off ALL pieces of ABC logic, but then when you backtrack and say it works sometimes you basically just pick and choose.

You are just lying now by saying "the transitive property has NEVER been applied to superheroes in Marvel". Just off the top of my head, Greg Pak used it to describe what happened in the World War Hulk body count:

No Caption Provided

"The same Hulk who defeated the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doctor Strange, Black Bolt, and the Sentry himself".

That's transitive property. That's just off the top of my head. I can find PLENTY more instances where they use that type of logic. As long as it works and makes sense, it shouldn't just be shrugged off just because you don't like it.

He never states "the transitive property has been or could be used, and that I am talking about how they specifically defeated them rather than the fact that they did."

...right but there's context for those examples he brought up. You can't just ignore that. I mean if the transitive property is completely useless in Marvel then does this not work?

Thor > Spider-Man

Hulk > Captain America

How about an actual answer instead of continuing your attempts to dodge the question?

For the second time, it's Contest of Champions II. Yes it is canon. Issue 5.

Then why are you bringing it up, using a scan where Rogue notes she has the power of the Phoenix, and are acting as if Iron Man deflected the entire brunt of what Jean Grey is capable of? Then how much psionic power did Rogue use here? If you don't have a concrete answer for that then this instance becomes unquantifiable, and impossible to know the scale of.

Her NAME was Phoenix (that's what they constantly called her in the story). She could only tap into small portions of the Phoenix force, but that doesn't mean Jean Grey's TK isn't still impressive. You think it's an all or nothing feat. It's either a supernova level feat or it's nothing worth mentioning. That's not the case and you don't get to lay out what it is or isn't. Her TK is better than anything Vader is capable of and her power couldn't get past Tony's internal safeguards, so Vader won't either. Period.

No, you don't. You can use individual instances, and feats outsides of fights in order to determine their capability. A nuclear bomb is not a character, and therefore wouldn't fall under the transitive property.

Why? Because you said so? What makes an inanimate object a variable outside of ABC logic?

This is a straw man on your part. I brought that up to show durable Darth Vader was, and that he could withstand Galen Marek's 2.0's force lightning.

...which is ABC logic. Hypocrite.

Which is ignoring that this is false equivalence as Star Wars, and Marvel are different.

Literally nothing true about that statement and it just further demonstrates your hilarious, ignorant, and hypocritical bias. How convenient that ABC logic is only relevant for the verse that you are defending, but it doesn't work for mine.

More importantly, that Tom Brevoort has no sway or say over the former.

Some vague and out of context statement by ONE editor has no sway over Marvel either. Stan Lee once said that any character can beat any other character if the writer decides to make it that way. Who do we listen to? I got an idea, how about we just look at consistency instead of using blanket statements for every and all feats within Marvel? Too radical of an idea, I know.

If you think Hulk struggling to damage Tony's armor is bad writing then post something that disproves that notion. Post something consistent that proves that idea faulty. Since you don't know anything about Tony's power level, I'm sure you'll post scans of Spider-Man, Captain America, Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, etc. winning against Iron Man which I can effortlessly debunk and prove as being inconsistent.

The transitive property applies in Star Wars. It doesn't apply in Marvel, and most comic books in general due to how inconsistent they can be.

Hypocritical.

Yes, but that's because there is no one at the helm of Star Wars or Disney saying that the transitive property does not exist inside of them. You are treating Marvel, and comic books in general as the same as any other medium. When they are so huge, have so many writers and artists, and so many branching storylines that as a medium it is rife with countless inconsistencies.

It's simple. You just ignore the inconsistencies. You act like every story contradicts the next story. If you pull all feats of a character together and you notice a trend that says a character is a street level character and then there are only like 2 feats of him being portrayed at herald levels, then you ignore the odd ones out. If Iron Man can't withstand Hulk levels of force, then why don't you post instances of that being inconsistent.

You have not demonstrated as such, and failed to provided a proper calculation for that earth quake feat. Which you assumed the scale of based on literally nothing. As I already made clear Darth Vader is going is far above that, and it's not going to do a lick of anything to actually hurt him. Iron Man cannot one-shot him, and he is going to have some difficulty putting down Darth Vader here.

Fine, you wanna nitpick? How's this?

One-shots and kills Hyrm, a frost giant who could survive several mountain busting explosions. Notice how Iron Man even burns the skin off of his foot even though the explosion couldn't. This blast even brought Thor to his knees.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Should be noted that this was written by the same writer.

This probably still won't impress you since there isn't any sketchy fan calculations and it's still "unquantifiable" in your eyes despite the fact that even the biggest man-made nukes can't destroy an average sized mountain, let alone 4-5. You are ridiculous.

You are the one shooting for Iron Man being too durable for the Hulk to hurt, and comparing a city destroying earthquake to an earthquake that can ravage the entire planet.

First of all, I NEVER said Iron Man couldn't be hurt by Hulk. Talk about putting words in someone's mouth... Another example of hypocrisy. I vaguely said he failed to hurt him. However, in reality, he resisted being crushed by Hulk for several seconds before something interrupted him. Here are two instances of this happening:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Scan 1: Iron Man's telepathic dampener resulted in Hulk stopping his rampage. Should be noted that, if you count the words spoken in that time frame, Hulk was crushing for about 30-40 seconds. His helmet integrity was compromised, but lasting that long without fighting back is impressive. Scan 2: Hulk grabs Iron Man's head and tries to pry open his armor for several seconds until Tony zaps him and makes him let go.

Second of all, the earthquake was active for seconds... SECONDS. Let that sink in. How long do you think a 10.0 would have to be active for to affect the entire planet? Are volcanoes going to go off the microsecond a 10.0 starts?

No, I am not. You do not understand understand the scale of earthquakes, and you are failing to understand that what you are claiming it would have ravaged the entire planet. It did not, and instead what damage we see do before it is stopped is nowhere near as much as an earthquake on a 10.0 of the richter scale would be. You are making broad claims with little reasoning behind them, and assuming a scale based on the speculation of the scale of damage.

....but he stopped the earthquake before it had a chance to do real lasting damage... Before it had a chance to grow... You do understand that, right? How do we know what would have happened if Tony just let the earthquake go? What we do know is that Tony claimed it'd take 30 seconds to destroy the city. Prove that a 10.0 could destroy a city in that time frame. Hell, even proving a 7.0 could do that would be nice.

It is laughably below the most impressive things Darth Vader has survived as I have already noted. He most certainly can going by the calculations I have provided, and the fact he could endure the entire brunt of Galen Marek 2.0's force lightning supports that.

Lmfao I find it so hilarious that you actually think Vader has durability far above nukes. So hilarious. Even if those weird calculations were correct, he would have tanked lightning above nukes, but Iron Man won't be using lightning on Vader. How would these ridiculous calculations translate against brute force? What happens if Iron Man punches Vader with the same level of force which drew blood from Sentry's lip? It's a specific type of energy attack, so it doesn't translate to Vader being able to no-sell anything below the gigaton level.

Once again, you are failing to understand scale here. The most of what we see at forty teratons of tnt is not enough to destroy the moon, and it is nowhere near approaching the gbe of our moon. Which is 1.24e29j. You are exaggerating for the sake of a style over substance argument, and I personally think Darth Vader would lose against either Thor or Hulk. As they have feats outside of the transitive property that show they can easily defeat him. Iron Man does not.

You have displayed that you don't know jack sh!t about Iron Man. You are using ridiculous calculations and shoddy comparisons to translate to Vader's overall durability.

While impressive that is not one the scale of what we're discussing here. What I provided was in the gigatons of TNT, and what have you. Which is enough to destroy entire islands. As well as the fusion accelerator instance which was in the teratons of tnt.

Destroying a mountain as wide as Manhattan and as tall as Mount Everest would be above that. Get your genius mathematicians calculate it.

No, it wasn't based on the destruction of the ISD. It was based on the official energy output of an ISD's force field. Which Galen Marek's clone had to break through in order for the fusion accelerator cannon to blow it up. Galen Marek only took fifteen seconds to charge it, after which he fired the fusion accelerator cannon. Going by this you haven't actually read the calculations I went out of my to provide for you. Since you haven't read them I will post the whole calculations.

CT123 said:

What sort of shielding does the ISD have though?

Let's compare how other ships handle this kind of shit.

The Acclamator I-class Assault Ship

Imperial I-class Star Destroyer

Power Output of ISD = 7.73 x 10^24 watts

Power Output of Acclamator I-class Assault Ship = 2 x 10^23 watts

Maximum Shielding of Acclamator I-class Assault Ship = 7 x 10^22 watts

Acclamator Shield/Acclamator Power = 0.35

Now assuming that between ships that the shield to power output ratio is similar?

Maximum Shielding of ISD = 2.7055 x 10^24 watts

Which means...

Fusion Accelerator Cannon Empowered By Starkiller Clone = 2.7055 x 10^24 joules

And it was charged for...

Time Frame for Charging Cannon = 15 seconds

Meaning his general firepower is...

Starkiller Clone's Force Lightning Energy = 180,366,666,666,666,700,000,000 joules or 43.109 teratons

As for the crashing ISD.

CT123 said:

He TK'saStar Destroyer

Another rendition.

Howithappenedinthecanonnovel.

So, as it happened in the novel, and is reflected by the comic version of events, the Star Destroyer gets released into free fall above Raxus Prime after that large space station was destroyed. Starkiller in both novel and comic controls its landing so that it ends up colliding with some big ass cannon. The video game in gameplay seems to portray the ship as having briefly engaged Galen Marek, but seeing as those events don't occur in the novel, I'll assume that bit isn't canon and just work with the ending cutscene that appears to corroborate with the novel's interpretation of events.

The free fall as seen in the game. The final shove to the ground for the Star Destroyer before destroying the cannon as seen in the game.

On with the calc.

Spoiler:

Star Destroyer Length = 1041 pixels

Star Destroyer Width = 576 pixels

Star Destroyer Width/Star Destroyer Length = 0.553

Star Destroyer Length = 1,600 meters

Star Destroyer Width = 884.8 meters

Star Destroyer Length = 1039 pixels

Star Destroyer Height = 190 pixels

Star Destroyer Height/Star Destroyer Length = 0.183

Star Destroyer Length = 1,600 meters

Star Destroyer Height = 292.8 meters

Volume = 0.2(LWH/3)

Star Destroyer Volume = 27,634,073.6 m^3

Steel Density = 7,800 kg/m^3

Star Destroyer Mass = 215,545,774,080 kilograms

As we can see here? I'm likely low balling the mass by assuming 80% of the volume is empty space.

So... given it's fall height, it's fairly obvious that, by the time we see it here, it's traveling at terminal velocity.

So, how do I find said velocity?

Equation

Acceleration Due to Gravity = 11.76 m/s^2 (Raxus Prime is 1.2 G)

Drag Coeffecient = 0.5 (a cone is approximately the shape of it here)

Air Density = 1.225 kg/m^3

Surface Area = (Star Destroyer Height*Star Destroyer Width)/2 = 129,534.72 m^2

Terminal Velocity of Star Destroyer = 7,993.597 m/s

As we see here, again, he forces the ship to the ground about as fast as it is falling horizontally, so it's fairly safe to say he at least moved it at the ship's terminal velocity.

So...

KE = 0.5mv^2

Galen Marek's Telekinetic Energy = 6,886,428,072,000,000,000 joules or 1.646 gigatons

These calculations are just ridiculous. How do you even transfer telekinetic force to gigatons? That'd be like if you used a telepathy feat to translate to 30 gigatons or something. That's just ludicrous.

As for the lightning, that doesn't necessarily mean he has the yield of 43 teratons. All he did was charge the cannon which is what destroyed the destroyer. He could have just been providing quantities of energy. It's quality vs quantity. If he was inside the star destroyer do you think that if he shot lightning at the ceiling that he'd be able to blast the star destroyer in half? That's basically what you are saying.

Yet another straw man based on you misunderstanding scale here, and the fact you are straight up ignoring the context of what Tom Brevoort said in order for it to fit into your narrative.

I'M ignoring the context of what he said?? LMFAO! Dude, he literally gives an example of what kind of ABC logic is NOT acceptable and WHY it isn't. He's referring to SPECIFICALLY to victories. Certain victories can't be applied to other characters because there is context to those victories. You are extrapolating his statement to EVERY feat.

So, you can apply the transitive property when he specifically states it has never been applied to superheores, and that you can't use fights to say one character is as powerful or more powerful than another based on fights and victories.

Again, what makes his word gospel? Even if you didn't completely misunderstand and exaggerate his stance, that still doesn't prove anything.

You outright noted that the Hulk couldn't crush Iron Man's helmet, and did not say that the Hulk could.

I said that he failed to. What I meant was that he failed to do so in a reasonable amount of time. I never said that he could never hurt or damage Tony's armor. He's definitely capable of breaking and defeating Iron Man, but he will struggle to do so.

Now you're changing your story, and back tracking.

No I'm not.

No, Darth Vader cannot no-sell the Hulk's hits because the Hulk is strong enough to rupture the fabric of dimensions with thunderclaps and destroy planets. Which is far above teratons of tnt. Which is nowhere near destroying the moon let alone destroying a planet or a large planet.

That's ABC logic, hypocrite.

It takes twenty-nine exatons of tnt to destroy the moon, and fifty-seven zettatons of tnt to destroy the earth.

Doesn't matter. Vader can't tank a 43 teraton attack. If I actually took this argument seriously I could present hundreds of pieces of evidence that contradicts your ridiculous calculation about his durability. When he gets hurt by far smaller scale attacks does that mean that those are above or near 43 teratons of force? I guess Boba Fett's blaster is around, what? 20 teratons of force since he managed to knock over and harm Vader?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This discussion is a freaking joke.

Nope, ABC logic works in a lot of series. In say Dragonball, and Marvel it doesn't.

How convenient.

In the latter case because it's outright noted not to

...by one editor... Who isn't even saying what you are claiming he's saying. He was talking specifically about victories.

and we can't ignore that both Marvel and DC are rife with inconsistencies. In the former case Son Goku has been ganked by ring lasers, and taking that seriously is a laugh. I never said Star Wars was the only series it applies to. It is easy to apply the transitive property when a medium isn't as large, and is not specifically noted by people at the helm of it to not be a thing. In DC, the most egregious is Batman who is able to defeat Wonder Woman consistently. As well as the Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman with his standard equipment. He does that consistently but it doesn't change how ridiculous it is, and how little sense it makes.

Again, it's stupid to shrug it all off completely. You look at what is and isn't consistent. That's all. Batman, a CONSISTENT street leveler, taking on CONSISTENT planetary powerhouses and high tiers is INCONSISTENT because he struggles with MUCH weaker characters MOST of the time. Iron Man's strongest villains are powerful enough to give powerful Avengers a tough time. That's his consistent power level. Mandarin, Ultimo, Fin Fang Foom, Arsenal, Crimson Dynamo, Temugin, etc. have all tanked hits from or given powerhouses like Thor, Hulk, Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch, etc. a difficult time.

You could definitely apply the transitive property in say The Stranger of Sword City or a series that is self contained and doesn't interact with others in cross-overs. Say, for example, Luther Strode.

Again, I'm not listening to your ridiculous reasoning for why we should just straight up ignore encounters and showings. That's ludicrous.