Iron Fist vs Wolverine vs Black Panthe

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#151  Edited By jay_z94

@supermanwithatan01 said:

@jay_z94: do you think Logan could bypass TChallas vibranium suit, and his energy daggers?

Very easily. Kraven bypassed it with his knives, Malice bypassed it with her wristblades and Sabretooth bypassed it with his claws. Considering his suit has been damaged a multitude of times, from both piercing and energy attacks, Wolverine's adamantium claws are going to shred through it like butter. You only need to look at his claws' cutting feats, they've pierced Thing, Colossus, Gladiator, Thor, Green Scar, Juggernaut's armour and even Power-gem Thanos.

The energy daggers are obviously going to harm Logan, but luckily he has a healing factor. One clean strike from Logan though and T'Challa is in big trouble.

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#152  Edited By Rackhir

Morals off it is going to be in Iron Fist's favor.

Danny reacting in a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://i.imgur.com/SsjtbDM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/27cSwqR.jpg

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

Able to block and catch dozens of flechettes at once.

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

Dodging four different bullets at once, and it's all in slow motion.

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg

Danny's Iron Fist only takes 0.05 seconds to charge and use, and that's before getting Orson Randall's chi and reading the Book of the Iron Fist.

IF: TLW #2

https://i.imgur.com/e0zryDO.jpg

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

That time Danny caught a sniper bullet.

Danny is able to stop Brenda from killing herself by catching a bullet right after it's fired from a handgun that was right next to her head, and he was a good ten feet away from her when that happened. He was moving hilariously faster than that bullet.

Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu #20

His Iron Fist is compared to a hydrogen bomb, causes a bunch of collateral damage, and disintegrates a gigantic monster.

New Avengers #59

Danny takes down a H.A.M.M.E.R helicarrier with a chi strike.

Then there's that time he broke out of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, and destroyed an inter-dimensional portal.

Iron Fist v1 #7

http://i.imgur.com/tkmxECq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/E2joHYB.jpg

Also, here he murders Zhu-Rong after getting his chi back from the One.

IF: TLW #11

https://i.imgur.com/5ckAEMV.jpg

As well as that instance where Danny gave his spirit substance after being murdered.

Context is that after going to Feng-Tu he was killed there, and then transported back to earth later on. Where he uses his chi to give his spirit substance, and fight.

Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu #24

http://i.imgur.com/Bhcpmeo.jpg

Immortal Iron Fist #14

Then there's that time he destroyed a train filled with enough explosives to make Hiroshima look like a sparkler. Which was going to destroy Kun-Lun. He got out of the resulting explosion without a scratch.

Iron Fist v1 3 & 4

As well as being able to survive attacks from Radion, and absorb them in order to prevent them from wiping London off the map. Whose power was measured in the hundreds of megatons of TNT in-story.

It's brought up again in Iron Fist v1 #7 that the reason he survived was because he was absorbing Radion's attacks. Just like he was absorbing some of Master Khan's spells.

Immortal Iron Fist #23

Danny was able to defeat a kinetic energy absorbing demon. He did so whilst wounded, suffering from malnutrition, and after being forced to fight in a demonic gladiator arena on a daily basis before being locked up in a dungeon after every fight.

Iron Fist v1 #14

https://i.imgur.com/iX0n3SK.jpg

Then there's that time he manhandled Sabertooth whilst he was blind.

Iron Fist v1 #1

https://i.imgur.com/pSj7I1n.jpg

As well as seeing through Iron Man's holographic illusions.

Thunderbolts #137

Drunken style Danny uses against telepathy.

Danny is able to trick Daredevil's senses.

Power Man & Iron Fist #77

https://i.imgur.com/numK5XD.jpg

Immortal Weapons #5

Daniel Rand murdering a giant dragon with his bare hands.

Marvel Team-Up #31

Danny is strong enough to break out of Spiderman's webbing as well.

Immortal Iron Fist #14

Danny is able to give his chi pyrokinetic properties, and launch it out of his hands as fireballs.

Immortal Iron Fist #17

Danny is able to create a dragon out of his chi.

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@jay_z94: that’s excellent info I appreciate it

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T’Challa has already out skilled Wolverine, and can one shot him with his daggers and use his other versatility/striking power to take him out.

As for Iron Fist we already saw how that fight plays out before BP got his energy adoration tech.

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@jay_z94: one last thing!! Haha sorry, can you PM me scans of the vibranium suits being cut?

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#158  Edited By jay_z94

@blackpantherisb: Don't even go there.

T'Challa outskilled a mentally unstable Wolverine that was explicitly stated to have lost his skill. That story is inconsistent to it's very core.

Wolverine is just as skilled as Black Panther, if not more. Logan can one-shot T'Challa, but I've never seen anything from BP showing that he can do the same.

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@jay_z94 said:

@blackpantherisb: Don't even go there.

T'Challa outskilled a mentally unstable Wolverine that was explicitly stated to have lost his skill. That story is inconsistent to it's very core.

Where was it said that Logan had lost his skill? They have confronted each other on multiple different occasions where T'Challa has made a mockery of his skill, the only battle I can think of where Logan was weakened was hit healing factor was gone when they fought here:

Wolverine Vol. 3 #8

I've read the killable arc and I don't remember there ever being anything mention about Wolvie losing his skill, only his HF. Also a good showing for T'Challa since he matches berserker Logan in strength. Or are referring to this confrontation:

Black Panther Vol. 4 #8
Black Panther Vol. 4 #8

Here Black Panther makes Logan look like a kindergartener in terms of skill, with Logan even remarking on his superior skill and speed. Hell, you could also be talking about this instance back in the classic days when the two clashed:

Contest of Champions Vol. 1 #3

Here a holding back T'Challa dances around Wolverine, who is going for the kill, and Wolverine doesn't manage to actually land a full on hit, and once again T'Challa matches him in grappling and regains the upper hand through skill.

Wolverine is just as skilled as Black Panther, if not more.

I'm sorry but no. Black Panther consistently shows more skill, he curbstomps Karnak effortlessly, has proven too much for Cap to handle (in both classic and current battles), has matched Iron Fist, overwhelmed classic Spider-Man with speed and striking power, has made Kraven and Ka-Zar his bitch, and has even defeated/adapted to the skill of a Super Skrull with the powers and skills of Wolverine, Iron Fist, Bullseye, and his own. Not to mention the fact that he always comes out on top when he faces off against Logan.

Logan can one-shot T'Challa,

BP will make landing a full piercing hit almost impossible with his superior skill, shields, raw speed, teleportation, AOE, energy projection, and energy daggers.

but I've never seen anything from BP showing that he can do the same.

Maybe not in one shot, but quickly for sure. His energy daggers can phase through Ultron's shields and adamantium, as well as damage Iron Man's armor and cut an alternate version of Terrax, so they should definitely be able to pierce Wolverine, and they can kill all nerves on contact. He can absorb kinetic energy and redirect it, in AOE, energy blasts, and regular blows. He has bombs that can make Namor scream in pain and his claws which enhance his striking can draw blood from Namor and make him scream in pain. Overall Black Panther has what it takes to avoid a kill shot from Wolverine and quickly put him down.

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It would seem the most skilled/powerful combatant here is being overlooked. He has the capability to KO Logan, to shred vibranium, to physically block panthers energy daggers with his chi, and his only disadvantage would be his durability. Which as of late, has been somewhat impressive!

Either way this is an excellent fight and maybe marvels 3 most skilled heroes.

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For the record, I believe Logan would edge out of victory. If we ignore bad writing and inconsistencies, and use primarily their high end feats I believe he at least matches Danny’s skill and surpasses T’Challa’s. His durability will tank both of them long enough to land a killshot on. They’re all roughly equal speed wise and they all have excellent experience. So it comes down to this for me: let’s say they all land 1-2 hits on each other, neither Panther nor Danny can kill or KO Logan with that (though iron fist is arguable), whereas 1 hit to the chest or head of Danny or T’Challa with 3, 9”-12” long claws will kill them. Logan won’t be fighting like a fool.

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#162  Edited By jay_z94

@jay_z94 said:

@blackpantherisb: Don't even go there.

T'Challa outskilled a mentally unstable Wolverine that was explicitly stated to have lost his skill. That story is inconsistent to it's very core.

Where was it said that Logan had lost his skill? They have confronted each other on multiple different occasions where T'Challa has made a mockery of his skill, the only battle I can think of where Logan was weakened was hit healing factor was gone when they fought here:

Wolverine Vol. 3 #8

I've read the killable arc and I don't remember there ever being anything mention about Wolvie losing his skill, only his HF. Also a good showing for T'Challa since he matches berserker Logan in strength.

Well first of all, Wolverine was mentally unstable, being afraid of showing. Secondly, this comic is very inconsistent as Logan never freaked out like that Post-Fatal attractions or in The death of wolverine story, in-fact he invited conflict in the latter. Thirdly, here it's stated twice that Wolverine lost his skill:

These three factors combined show that this showing can not be used for a prime Wolverine.

Or are referring to this confrontation:

Black Panther Vol. 4 #8
Black Panther Vol. 4 #8

Here Black Panther makes Logan look like a kindergartener in terms of skill, with Logan even remarking on his superior skill and speed.

You have hideously twisted the context and wording of this scene. First of all, where does Wolverine say BP has superior skill? All T'Challa does is take Logan by surprise and throw him. That's it. From that you think BP is more skilled than Logan? Heck people like cyclops have thrown Wolverine, does that make him more skilled? Also where does it say BP is faster? Logan just called him fast. That's it. Spider-man has called Wolverine fast and also been thrown by Wolverine multiple times, but that doesn't make Logan faster than Spider-man.

Hell, you could also be talking about this instance back in the classic days when the two clashed:

Contest of Champions Vol. 1 #3

Here a holding back T'Challa dances around Wolverine, who is going for the kill, and Wolverine doesn't manage to actually land a full on hit, and once again T'Challa matches him in grappling and regains the upper hand through skill.

This is clearly a showing of speed, not skill? Nowhere does BP outskill Logan here, dodging attacks shows speed. Where on earth does BP match him in grappling or regain the upper hand in skill? T'Challa jumps on Logan, who counters by throwing him to the ground and has him at claw point. I'm sorry, but are we actually looking at the same scans here? BP only manages to kick Logan off once Thing distracts him, hence T'Challa noting that Wolverine needs to keep his mind on the fight. Nowhere is Logan out-skilled in this fight.

Wolverine is just as skilled as Black Panther, if not more.

I'm sorry but no. Black Panther consistently shows more skill,

Showing skill more consistently doesn't mean he's more skilled, that's a fallacy. Logan doesn't always need to show skill because he can tank damage if he wants to. But against skilled opponents he has always used skill.

he curbstomps Karnak effortlessly, has proven too much for Cap to handle (in both classic and current battles), has matched Iron Fist, overwhelmed classic Spider-Man with speed and striking power, has made Kraven and Ka-Zar his bitch,

Logan has gotten the best of Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Captain America, Daredevil, Sabertooth, Bucky, The black dragon squad, Silver Samurai and the list goes on. He did all of this with skill. Wolverine has also tagged and dodged Spider-Man's blows multiple times. These people are more skilled than the people T'Challa has beaten. WOlverine out-skilled Danny, while T'Challa has never done that, he had to resort to using an earpiece in order to defeat Danny. Heck, Danny was much more skilled in his encounter with Wolverine. Furthermore, Captain America has beaten T'Challa and the time that T'Challa beat Cap he was wounded IIRC and both were holding back. While Wolverine has gotten the best of Cap during AvX and also during Origins when Cap was completely fresh while Logan was exhausted with a burnt out healing factor.

and has even defeated/adapted to the skill of a Super Skrull with the powers and skills of Wolverine, Iron Fist, Bullseye, and his own.

You conveniently forgot to mention that he could only use the powers of one character at a time. T'Challa even admits that he can't outfight him, he had to rely on reading his body language in order to figure out when he wasn't invulnerable. It's a good feat overall, but it in no way shows that he's more skilled than the Super Skrull or Danny or Logan, etc.

Furthermore, Logan has mastered every martial art on the planet and even knows alien ones, evident from when he used a pressure point on kid gladiator.

Not to mention the fact that he always comes out on top when he faces off against Logan.

Their first fight Logan threw him to the ground, had him at claw point and then got kicked off when Thing distracted him. The second one wasn't even a damn fight, BP just threw Logan. The third one Wolverine was mentally unstable and had lost his skill within an inconsistent story. How you can use that is beyond me. BP has never beaten a normal Wolverine in a fight.

Logan can one-shot T'Challa,

BP will make landing a full piercing hit almost impossible with his superior skill, shields, raw speed, teleportation, AOE, energy projection, and energy daggers.

In terms of skill, they are even with Logan having a slight edge. In terms of speed, whilst taking into account outside speed feats, they are even with T'Challa having a slight edge in their encounters. Bearing this in mind, both are going to have no problem tagging each other. Depends on the gear he has in the fight, but he can't one-shot Wolverine while Logan can one-shot BP. T'Challa has only used teleportation once like 5 years ago and he doesn't have shields anymore IIRC.

but I've never seen anything from BP showing that he can do the same.

Maybe not in one shot, but quickly for sure. His energy daggers can phase through Ultron's shields and adamantium

The energy daggers disrupted the electronics in Ultron's head, Logan doesn't have any electronics in his head. For T'Challa to actually affect Logan like that, he'd have to stick them in his head whilst intangible, then turn them tangible. Wolverine isn't going to just stand there and let him do this, is he?

, as well as damage Iron Man's armor and cut an alternate version of Terrax, so they should definitely be able to pierce Wolverine, and they can kill all nerves on contact.

Of-course T'Challa is going to cut him, but Logan will just heal? While BP can't do the same if he gets cut by Logan. Logan has no sold a pressure point attack that targets the nerves in order to instantly kill or paralyse while poisoned:

So daggers are going to do nothing in that regard.

He can absorb kinetic energy and redirect it, in AOE, energy blasts, and regular blows. He has bombs that can make Namor scream in pain and his claws which enhance his striking can draw blood from Namor and make him scream in pain.

Kinetic energy or bombs are just going to healed. Logan has consistently tanked much worse:

There are many more instances too.

Overall Black Panther has what it takes to avoid a kill shot from Wolverine and quickly put him down.

He can't avoid Wolverine forever. They are both pretty much even in skill and speed. Not to mention Logan's HF, which will let him take a lot of punishment. The same can't be said for BP. Logan's claws are going to go through BP's vibranium suit like butter and do major damage which T'Challa simply can't recover from. From there it's an uphill battle for him.

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@jay_z94:

Well first of all, Wolverine was mentally unstable, being afraid of showing. Secondly, this comic is very inconsistent as Logan never freaked out like that Post-Fatal attractions or in The death of wolverine story, in-fact he invited conflict in the latter. Thirdly, here it's stated twice that Wolverine lost his skill:

These three factors combined show that this showing can not be used for a prime Wolverine.

Okay, fair enough, I hadn't seen those scans/didn't remember that.

You have hideously twisted the context and wording of this scene. First of all, where does Wolverine say BP has superior skill? All T'Challa does is take Logan by surprise and throw him.

BP didn't take Logan by surprise in any way shape or form, Logan charged T'Challa ready to fight, T'Challa explicitly states that he doesn't want to fight, then Wolvie rushes him swings his claw and T'Challa outreacts/outskills Logan, and hurdles Logan across the room.

That's it. From that you think BP is more skilled than Logan? Heck people like cyclops have thrown Wolverine, does that make him more skilled?

Yes but I don't think that Cyclops can outreact Wolverine and take Logan's own attacks and use them to his own advantage. And speaking of Cyclops, some who consistently tags, overwhelms Wolverine with his Optic Blasts:

Avenger Vol. 1 #53
Avenger Vol. 1 #53

Here before Cyclops can react Black Panther blitzes him and shuts his visor. I don't think that Logan has ever demonstrated the speed and skill to stop Cyclops from opening his visor, and the pair have fought many many times.

Also where does it say BP is faster? Logan just called him fast. That's it.

Yes Logan only calls him fast but in the context of being outreacted and his very surprised reaction it seems that he almost struggled to perceive what Black Panther was doing to him. Regardless I think that in terms of combat speed BP does have a slight edge.

Spider-man has called Wolverine fast and also been thrown by Wolverine multiple times, but that doesn't make Logan faster than Spider-man.

A large part of the reason that Wolverine can tag/throw Spidey to due to the massive skill gap honestly, also I don't think that Logan has every intercepted an blows from Peter, outreacting him, and then tossed him away. As for Spider-Man though in his younger years he has actually called T'Challa faster than himself:

Spidey #7
Spidey #7

This is clearly a showing of speed, not skill? Nowhere does BP outskill Logan here, dodging attacks shows speed. Where on earth does BP match him in grappling or regain the upper hand in skill? T'Challa jumps on Logan, who counters by throwing him to the ground and has him at claw point. I'm sorry, but are we actually looking at the same scans here? BP only manages to kick Logan off once Thing distracts him, hence T'Challa noting that Wolverine needs to keep his mind on the fight. Nowhere is Logan out-skilled in this fight.

Dancing around someone's blows definitely requires lots of skill, at least when it's two beings of this caliber, which is especially impressive since Panther was holding back, he matches Wolverine in grappling when Logan is one top of him and while Logan did talk to thing for half a second he was clearly still focusing on T'Challa. Overall I would say that Panther demonstrates better speed and skill in both of these fights.

Showing skill more consistently doesn't mean he's more skilled, that's a fallacy. Logan doesn't always need to show skill because he can tank damage if he wants to. But against skilled opponents he has always used skill.

I was mostly talking about the fights that the two have. Not their showings in general.

Logan has gotten the best of Shang Chi, Iron Fist,

I'm sorry but him beating Iron Fist is just strait up PIS, Danny is just far more skilled than Logan, even back in his classic days Logan got spanked in terms of skill by Danny:

Iron Fist Vol. 1 #15

And Danny has matched Gorgon briefly, who curbstomped Wolvie and Electra at the same time despite Wolvie having metal blocks in. Danny is simply more skilled than Logan. And your obviously referring to New Avengers Vol.2 #15 which is written by freaking Bendis and in the very same issue Logan gets curbed by freaking Squirrel Girl, so I don't think that anything from that issue can be taken seriously.

Captain America, Daredevil,

Well T'Challa has already beat Cap in a sparring match and danced around him while holding back. And he stomped Ka-Zar who has owned Daredevil in the past so neither of these examples are ver impressive.

Sabertooth, Bucky, The black dragon squad, Silver Samurai and the list goes on.

None of these are super impressive skill wise to be perfectly honest.

These people are more skilled than the people T'Challa has beaten.

Not really which one's are you referring to? The Skrull feat has all of this topped, but I will get into that later.

WOlverine out-skilled Danny, while T'Challa has never done that, he had to resort to using an earpiece in order to defeat Danny. Heck, Danny was much more skilled in his encounter with Wolverine.

Come on, that whole issue didn't have an ounce of validity.

Furthermore, Captain America has beaten T'Challa

When exactly?

and the time that T'Challa beat Cap he was wounded IIRC and both were holding back.

Cap wasn't wounded, and it was loosely implied at best that they were holding back.

While Wolverine has gotten the best of Cap during AvX and also during Origins when Cap was completely fresh while Logan was exhausted with a burnt out healing factor.

Both of them are well beyond Steve in terms of skill, but if your still not convinced T'Challa developed his own fighting style and used to to perfectly disrupt the Chi in a telekinetic technopath to shut down her powers entirely:

Ultimates II Vol.2 #5

Literally taking away someone's powers with raw skill, that is one of the best skill showing that they MU has ever seen, and I don't see Cap, or even Wolverine for that matter performing something similar.

You conveniently forgot to mention that he could only use the powers of one character at a time.

While this is true he doesn't have to flip in between their skills, he just naturally has them programmed in and can use all of them at once, and that list obviously includes Danny, Wolverine, Bullseye, and his own, but with the added bonus's of Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Cap, and Electra. Pretty much all of the top fighters in the MU, and if you look at the fight:

Black Panther Vol. #40

If you count T'Challa at the beginning of the fight, before the Skrull lands one blow T'Challa dodges 5 and lands one. The Skrull blocks one and then finally tags T'Challa, and then before the Skrull can hit him with the Iron Fist T'Challa processes the Skrull's fighting style and break his arm, all before the Skrull can even throw a punch. Then he blitzes the Skrull and takes out his eye, and end up shattering his leg. So overall T'Challa actually displays superior skill to the Skrull, but was on the losing side due to the Skrull's power/versatility.

T'Challa even admits that he can't outfight him,

Obviously not since he can seamlessly weave between the powers of Logan, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Bullseye and he has the skills of just about the whole marvel MU, but he was actually out skilling the Skrull.

he had to rely on reading his body language in order to figure out when he wasn't invulnerable. It's a good feat overall, but it in no way shows that he's more skilled than the Super Skrull or Danny or Logan, etc.

Well he dodged most of the Skrull's hits and landed far more blows, he was only losing because the Skrull has far more powers and is way way more versatile. Overall this skill feat is way above anything that Logan has ever done.

In terms of skill, they are even with Logan having a slight edge.

I would say that it is the exact opposite.

In terms of speed, whilst taking into account outside speed feats, they are even with T'Challa having a slight edge in their encounters.

Yeah I agree with that.

Bearing this in mind, both are going to have no problem tagging each other.

Eh...coupled with T'Challa's speed, skill, kinetic energy output, energy daggers, teleportation, and shields it will be not easy thing for Logan to perform.

Depends on the gear he has in the fight, but he can't one-shot Wolverine while Logan can one-shot BP. T'Challa has only used teleportation once like 5 years ago

He used it with relative frequency during Hickman's run, and I don't know why he wouldn't get all of his standard gear here.

and he doesn't have shields anymore IIRC.

What makes you think that?

The energy daggers disrupted the electronics in Ultron's head, Logan doesn't have any electronics in his head. For T'Challa to actually affect Logan like that, he'd have to stick them in his head whilst intangible, thenturn them tangible. Wolverine isn't going to just stand there and let him do this, is he?

But it can still phase through his head. He could just use his other daggers which will kill all of Logan's nerves like they did here:

Black Panther Vol. 4 #28
Black Panther Vol. 4 #28

Head kills all of the nerves in a Skrull with Mr. Fantastic powers's elongated arms, and while Wolverine is resistant to nerve strikes, even when weakened as you displayed, but I definitely don't think that he can resist an attack that kills all of the nerves in his body. This could stun him and allow him to phase the energy daggers through him. He could also use his bombs to hurt Logan or, ya know just punch him in the face.

Of-course T'Challa is going to cut him, but Logan will just heal? While BP can't do the same if he gets cut by Logan. Logan has no sold a pressure point attack that targets the nerves in order to instantly kill or paralyse while poisoned:

Okay so he can tank certain nerve attacks, but what about attacks that level all of his nerves?

Kinetic energy or bombs are just going to healed. Logan has consistently tanked much worse:

The only thing that the first two attacks do is melt his flesh, the bomb, which makes Namor scream out in pain and ragdoll him will do much much worse that third degree burns, and none of that is applicable to blunt force. In the third example Wolverine is tanking hits from Thor which is utterly inconsistent with Logan's capabilities since ya know, Thor is a high tier with superior striking to that of the Hulk's who has one shotted Logan in the past. The Hiroshima thing is very impressive though, but it clearly pushed Logan to his absolute limits.

He can't avoid Wolverine forever. They are both pretty much even in skill and speed.

I would give T'Challa a small edge in both of those categories, and BP can hold him off with his range, AOE, shields, and teleportation.

Not to mention Logan's HF, which will let him take a lot of punishment.

He can take a fair amount of punishment, but he can also be overloaded, T'Challa can use his bombs, nerve killing energy daggers, or his more powerful strikes to stun Wolverine, which will allow him to follow up by phasing a dagger through Logan's brain, or simply repeating the process until Logan drops.

The same can't be said for BP. Logan's claws are going to go through BP's vibranium suit like butter and do major damage which T'Challa simply can't recover from. From there it's an uphill battle for him.

I think I've already covered how BP can avoid taking too much damage. Overall Black Panther is too skilled and versatile for Wolverine to win a majority over, it's a super close battle, but at the end of the day I give it to T'Challa.

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wolverine

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#167  Edited By jay_z94

@jay_z94:

Well first of all, Wolverine was mentally unstable, being afraid of showing. Secondly, this comic is very inconsistent as Logan never freaked out like that Post-Fatal attractions or in The death of wolverine story, in-fact he invited conflict in the latter. Thirdly, here it's stated twice that Wolverine lost his skill:

These three factors combined show that this showing can not be used for a prime Wolverine.

Okay, fair enough, I hadn't seen those scans/didn't remember that.

No problem.

You have hideously twisted the context and wording of this scene. First of all, where does Wolverine say BP has superior skill? All T'Challa does is take Logan by surprise and throw him.

BP didn't take Logan by surprise in any way shape or form, Logan charged T'Challa ready to fight, T'Challa explicitly states that he doesn't want to fight, then Wolvie rushes him swings his claw and T'Challa outreacts/outskills Logan, and hurdles Logan across the room.

No, Logan didn't charge T'Challa ready to fight. The X-men wanted to question and T'Challa about his action and Logan was walking towards him asking if he wanted to do this the easy way or the hard way. In-fact, it was T'Challa who ran up to to Logan and threw him. It doesn't look like Logan swung for him either, it just looks like T'Challa grabbed his arm and put into a position and threw him. But even is he did swing, T'Challa dodges and threw him. That shows speed. That one feat does not hail T'Challa as more skilled than Logan, that's incredibly flawed logic. This is a speed feat. I could just as easily say that when Logan threw T'Challa to the ground in their first fight, that shows that Wolverine is more skilled...

That's it. From that you think BP is more skilled than Logan? Heck people like cyclops have thrown Wolverine, does that make him more skilled?

Yes but I don't think that Cyclops can outreact Wolverine and take Logan's own attacks and use them to his own advantage. And speaking of Cyclops, some who consistently tags, overwhelms Wolverine with his Optic Blasts:

Again, it doesn't really look like Logan attacked. T'Challa ran to Logan, took him by surprise by grabbing his arm and threw him.

Avenger Vol. 1 #53
Avenger Vol. 1 #53

Here before Cyclops can react Black Panther blitzes him and shuts his visor. I don't think that Logan has ever demonstrated the speed and skill to stop Cyclops from opening his visor, and the pair have fought many many times.

Urm what? T'Challa in-fact failed to react. Cyclops shot Hawkeye with his beam, BP only reacted to stop a second blast, that's no where near as impressive as you made it out to be. Blitzing a peak human (at best) before he can attack a second time is not impressive for a street leveller of BP's calibre. Wolverine has blitzed superhuman before, like Cap, Sabertooth, Spider-man. Heck, Wolverine has reacted to Cyclops' optic beams controlled by his gloves in close quarters combat and easily kept up with him:

Image result for wolverine vs cyclopsRelated image

Also where does it say BP is faster? Logan just called him fast. That's it.

Yes Logan only calls him fast but in the context of being outreacted and his very surprised reaction it seems that he almost struggled to perceive what Black Panther was doing to him. Regardless I think that in terms of combat speed BP does have a slight edge.

He obviously perceived what was happening, come on now, BP is not FTE to Logan. Logan was simply taken by surprise. Wolverine has taken Spider-Man by surprise with his speed too:

I can agree that BP has a slight edge, but in a real fight this will make pretty much no difference. You're acting as if BP is going to clown Logan and dodge every attack, which is simmply untrue as if we were to look at outside speed feats, Logan is easily on T'Challa's level. T'Challa has been tagged in combat by Deadpool, Spider-man, Captain America, Sabertooth, etc, people that Logan himself can easily keep up with.

Spider-man has called Wolverine fast and also been thrown by Wolverine multiple times, but that doesn't make Logan faster than Spider-man.

A large part of the reason that Wolverine can tag/throw Spidey to due to the massive skill gap honestly, also I don't think that Logan has every intercepted an blows from Peter, outreacting him, and then tossed him away.

Wolverine has tagged Spider-Man, dodged blows from him, taken him by surprise and been called fast by him. All occurred in different encounters, so it's consistent. Spider-Man is still a bit faster though, i'm just showing that Logan can keep up, and therefore easily keep up with BP in a combat situation.

As for Spider-Man though in his younger years he has actually called T'Challa faster than himself:

Spidey #7
Spidey #7

First of all, that's a very young Spider-Man, he got more powerful as he aged into adulthood. Secondly, BlackSpidey who is a very knowledgeable user when it comes Spider-Man has said that this isn't canon.

Furthermore, in a comic where both characters are adults, T'Challa has actually admitted that Spider-Man is faster:

He did tag him here, but he used tactics, not raw speed. The point is that in their primes, Spider-Man is said to be faster.

Last of all, as we've already seen in a very recent encounter, Spider-Man is decisively faster than Black Panther.

This is clearly a showing of speed, not skill? Nowhere does BP outskill Logan here, dodging attacks shows speed. Where on earth does BP match him in grappling or regain the upper hand in skill? T'Challa jumps on Logan, who counters by throwing him to the ground and has him at claw point. I'm sorry, but are we actually looking at the same scans here? BP only manages to kick Logan off once Thing distracts him, hence T'Challa noting that Wolverine needs to keep his mind on the fight. Nowhere is Logan out-skilled in this fight.

Dancing around someone's blows definitely requires lots of skill, at least when it's two beings of this caliber, which is especially impressive since Panther was holding back, he matches Wolverine in grappling when Logan is one top of him and while Logan did talk to thing for half a second he was clearly still focusing on T'Challa. Overall I would say that Panther demonstrates better speed and skill in both of these fights.

Panther showed better speed, but in now way does he demonstrate better skill. Dodging attacks might show acrobatic skill, but it doesn't show martial art or fighting skill. Panther tries to surprise by ambushing him, yet Wolverine still throws him to the ground and is on top of him for a long time, how on earth does that BP "matching" Logan in skill, let alone actually out-skilling him? No, it's evident that his mind wasn't fully on the fight because he was having a back and forth conversation with Thing, which T'Challa took advantage off, specifically stating that Logan needs to keep his kind on the fight. Thing essentially helped T'Challa out.

Showing skill more consistently doesn't mean he's more skilled, that's a fallacy. Logan doesn't always need to show skill because he can tank damage if he wants to. But against skilled opponents he has always used skill.

I was mostly talking about the fights that the two have. Not their showings in general.

Well in the first fight the only skill that was shown, was Wolverine throwing T'Challa to the ground despite being ambushed and T'Challa kicking Logan off of him when the latter got distracted. The second encounter wasn't even a fight, T'Challa simply ran to Logan and threw him, that's it.I could just as easily use Wolverine throwing T'Challa to the ground in the first fight as evidence that Logan is more skilled. The third encounter, well you know why we can't use that.

Logan has gotten the best of Shang Chi, Iron Fist,

I'm sorry but him beating Iron Fist is just strait up PIS, Danny is just far more skilled than Logan,

Proof? Both are exceptionally skilled martial artists in their own right, so there's nothing to justify that Danny is "far more" skilled.

even back in his classic days Logan got spanked in terms of skill by Danny:

Iron Fist Vol. 1 #15

Using a feat from the classic days does not do your argument any favours whatsoever. Logan's skill wasn't as fleshed out back then, he's gotten considerably more skilled over the years following that fight, evidenced by when he got the better of Shang Chi, Cap, Daredevil, Bucky, Sabertooth, Silver Samurai, Black Dragon squad and of-course Danny himself in a sparring match.

And Danny has matched Gorgon briefly, who curbstomped Wolvie and Electra at the same time despite Wolvie having metal blocks in.

You conveniently left out the part where Gorgon said he's saving himself for Wolverine, ergo, he was holding back. Furthermore, in that fight he got one-shotted by Daredevil, so Bendis' Gorgon is clearly inferior to EOTS Gorgon.

Danny is simply more skilled than Logan.

Proof? In modern times I just don't see it.

And your obviously referring to New Avengers Vol.2 #15 which is written by freaking Bendis

Yes, Bendis can be inconsistent, but he also gave Danny his helicarrier feat. Heck, he also gave Danny his Gorgon feat, so how can you use this feat as evidence of him being more skilled than Wolverine, but then disregard their sparring match written by the same person? That just makes no sense and is huge double standard on your part.

and in the very same issue Logan gets curbed by freaking Squirrel Girl, so I don't think that anything from that issue can be taken seriously.

Yes, he got curbstomped by a joke character with legit toon force who beats everyone. How does that invalidate Wolverine's feat against Iron Fist exactly? Squirrel Girl has soloed the avengers and stomped both Dr Doom and Thanos, Wolverine lasting that long against her is a feat on it's own.

Captain America, Daredevil,

Well T'Challa has already beat Cap in a sparring match and danced around him while holding back.

Captain America was also holding back and was also injured:

In an actual fight, Captain America defeated Black Panther, which fits perfectly with the scan above where Cap states that the outcome would be different in a real fight.

And he stomped Ka-Zar who has owned Daredevil in the past so neither of these examples are ver impressive.

Did he beat Ka-Zar with skill? Daredevil himself has stalemated BP before in a H2H fight and even came off looking better, so yes Wolverine out-skilling Daredevil is very impressive indeed.

Sabertooth, Bucky, The black dragon squad, Silver Samurai and the list goes on.

None of these are super impressive skill wise to be perfectly honest.

They aren't as skilled Logan or T'Challa, but they are just evidence of skilled people Wolverine has beaten. Wolverine stomps Sabertooth casually, while when BP fought Sabertooth he needed to be saved by Wolverine.

These people are more skilled than the people T'Challa has beaten.

Not really which one's are you referring to? The Skrull feat has all of this topped, but I will get into that later.

But T'Challa said he can't outfight it, not to mention that it can only use one skill at a time. T'Challa had to resort to evading it, then attack when it's vulnerable. This isn't a strict skill feat that puts him on par to Logan. After breaking it's arm, T'Challa took it's eye out when it used Moon knight's skill to throw his boomerang things. Then T'Challa finally beats it when the super skrull mindlessly runs at T'Challa with an outstretched arm. Hardly a strict skill feat to put him over Logan or Danny.

WOlverine out-skilled Danny, while T'Challa has never done that, he had to resort to using an earpiece in order to defeat Danny. Heck, Danny was much more skilled in his encounter with Wolverine.

Come on, that whole issue didn't have an ounce of validity.

I've already explained above that it definitely does have validity

Furthermore, Captain America has beaten T'Challa

When exactly?

Here:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

It's not a decisive win as you can see in their dialogue that both are having internal issues, but it's still a win nonetheless for Cap, in an actual fight.

Whereas the time BP beat Logan, only Logan was severely hindered. Furthermore, Logan has gotten the better of Cap in a fight twice, including a time when Cap was fresh and Logan exhausted with a taxed healing factor.

and the time that T'Challa beat Cap he was wounded IIRC and both were holding back.

Cap wasn't wounded, and it was loosely implied at best that they were holding back.

I've already shown above that Cap was injured. Both were holding back.

While Wolverine has gotten the best of Cap during AvX and also during Origins when Cap was completely fresh while Logan was exhausted with a burnt out healing factor.

Both of them are well beyond Steve in terms of skill,

They should do, but Logan has a better track record against Cap than BP does.

but if your still not convinced T'Challa developed his own fighting style and used to to perfectly disrupt the Chi in a telekinetic technopath to shut down her powers entirely:

Ultimates II Vol.2 #5

Literally taking away someone's powers with raw skill, that is one of the best skill showing that they MU has ever seen, and I don't see Cap, or even Wolverine for that matter performing something similar.

T'Challa did not develop his own fighting style from scratch, he simply fused already existing styles together. Even modern day MMA fighters can do this, calling it the best skill showing in the MU is laughable to say the least. He took away someone's powers by using Kun Lun's martial arts to disrupt chi. This is simply T'Challa knowing multiple martial arts. Logan has mastered every martial art. Logan knows alien martial arts too.

You conveniently forgot to mention that he could only use the powers of one character at a time.

While this is true he doesn't have to flip in between their skills, he just naturally has them programmed in and can use all of them at once, and that list obviously includes Danny, Wolverine, Bullseye, and his own, but with the added bonus's of Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Cap, and Electra. Pretty much all of the top fighters in the MU, and if you look at the fight:

No he can't, it's explicitly stated that he can only use them one at a time.

Black Panther Vol. #40

If you count T'Challa at the beginning of the fight, before the Skrull lands one blow T'Challa dodges 5 and lands one.

This shows that he's faster than the skrull, not more skilled.

The Skrull blocks one and then finally tags T'Challa, and then before the Skrull can hit him with the Iron Fist T'Challa processes the Skrull's fighting style and break his arm, all before the Skrull can even throw a punch.

Yeah, T'Challa read his body language and broke his arm. that's great, but reading body language is what all great martial artists do.

Then he blitzes the Skrull and takes out his eye,

Because he's faster.

and end up shattering his leg.

Because the skrull just ran to him blindly with an outstretched arm, he wasn't using any skill at this point.

So overall T'Challa actually displays superior skill to the Skrull, but was on the losing side due to the Skrull's power/versatility.

But we have no idea which powers the skrull was using in the later fight, he can only use on at a time.

T'Challa even admits that he can't outfight him,

Obviously not since he can seamlessly weave between the powers of Logan, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Bullseye and he has the skills of just about the whole marvel MU, but he was actually out skilling the Skrull.

Nowhere did he out-skill the skrull. He just dodged its blows then broke it's arm when the Skrull had a hold on T'Challa. T'Challa used his intelligence, body reading skills and speed to defeat it, because he couldn't outfight it, specifically stated by T'Challa himself. He also stated that his only chance is to survive long enough (hence him dodging) to find out a weakness (using body language he deciphered that he can only use one power at a time and has tells when he switches powers).

he had to rely on reading his body language in order to figure out when he wasn't invulnerable. It's a good feat overall, but it in no way shows that he's more skilled than the Super Skrull or Danny or Logan, etc.

Well he dodged most of the Skrull's hits and landed far more blows, he was only losing because the Skrull has far more powers and is way way more versatile. Overall this skill feat is way above anything that Logan has ever done.

No it isn't way above anything Logan has done, T'Challa is essentially fighting each of those people one at a time, if the skrull could use all of the powers at the same time then yes it would be the best skill feat ever possibly. Even though the skrull could only use one skill at a time, BP still had to resort to dodging his bows most of the fight as he had no chance of outfighting it.

In terms of skill, they are even with Logan having a slight edge.

I would say that it is the exact opposite.

No. In their fights, both have performed throws on each other, cancelling it out. In their third fight, Logan was extremely hindered, rendering that moot. So we need to look at outside feats. Wolverine has outskilled a higher quantity and quality of notable martial artists compared to BP, including DD who got the better of BP, including Cap who got the better of BP in a fight, including Danny who BP never outskilled and had to resort to an earpiece, including Sabertooth who got the better of BP. Not to mention that Wolverine has mastered every martial art and knows alien ones too. So Logan does have the edge in raw martial arts skill.

In terms of speed, whilst taking into account outside speed feats, they are even with T'Challa having a slight edge in their encounters.

Yeah I agree with that.

Yes, although like the difference in skill the gap is extremely small. Hence, with pretty much equal speed and skill, both are going to have no problem keeping up with each other. If you can agree with this conclusion we can focus the rest of the debate on Wolverine's damage soak and output vs BP's tech and gear.

Bearing this in mind, both are going to have no problem tagging each other.

Eh...coupled with T'Challa's speed, skill, kinetic energy output, energy daggers, teleportation, and shields it will be not easy thing for Logan to perform.

The tech will be addressed later on, but matching skill and speed isn't going to be a challenge for either fighters.

Depends on the gear he has in the fight, but he can't one-shot Wolverine while Logan can one-shot BP. T'Challa has only used teleportation once like 5 years ago

He used it with relative frequency during Hickman's run, and I don't know why he wouldn't get all of his standard gear here.

He only used the teleportation device once. Can you show me another time's used it in combat?

and he doesn't have shields anymore IIRC.

What makes you think that?

I haven't seen him use them recently.

The energy daggers disrupted the electronics in Ultron's head, Logan doesn't have any electronics in his head. For T'Challa to actually affect Logan like that, he'd have to stick them in his head whilst intangible, thenturn them tangible. Wolverine isn't going to just stand there and let him do this, is he?

But it can still phase through his head.

Yes but in order to physically stab his brain he would then need to turn them tangible again, Wolverine's head doesn't consist of electronic to disrupt.

He could just use his other daggers which will kill all of Logan's nerves like they did here:

Black Panther Vol. 4 #28
Black Panther Vol. 4 #28

Head kills all of the nerves in a Skrull with Mr. Fantastic powers's elongated arms, and while Wolverine is resistant to nerve strikes, even when weakened as you displayed, but I definitely don't think that he can resist an attack that kills all of the nerves in his body. This could stun him and allow him to phase the energy daggers through him. He could also use his bombs to hurt Logan or, ya know just punch him in the face.

If BP come this close to Wolverine, sure he's going to get hit, but he's also going to be receiving a stab himself. We both know who's going to come off better if they both exchanged hits. Considering Logan no sold an attack to his nerve clusters whilst weakened, I have no doubt that deadening all of his nerves won't put him down either. His healing factor has also been amped since the time he no sold the nerve attacks. Further, he's taken attacks that have blown most of his skin and flesh off, which would obviously kill his nerves too. Regarding punching him in the face, do you even know who Wolverine is? BP could wail in him all day and it would no nothing. Wolverine has consistently tanked punches from Spider-man, he's even smiled at all out punches from him.

Of-course T'Challa is going to cut him, but Logan will just heal? While BP can't do the same if he gets cut by Logan. Logan has no sold a pressure point attack that targets the nerves in order to instantly kill or paralyse while poisoned:

Okay so he can tank certain nerve attacks, but what about attacks that level all of his nerves?

Most likely he can, as I've said earlier he's tanked explosions, and he tanked the nerve attack while weakened and with an inferior healing factor. Furthermore, his healing factor has tanked atmospheric re-entry, standing next to the sun, an atom bomb and being burnt to his skeleton by acid. All of these attacks would kill his nerves.

Kinetic energy or bombs are just going to healed. Logan has consistently tanked much worse:

The only thing that the first two attacks do is melt his flesh, the bomb, which makes Namor scream out in pain and ragdoll him will do much much worse that third degree burns, and none of that is applicable to blunt force.

The bombs and gauntets he had against Namor clearly were part of prep and not his standard gear? So why are we using them here? Even if T'Challa did have them Wolverine has proven time and time again that he can tank explosions. T'Challa's gear isn't going to do more than melt Wolverine's flesh anyway, so i'm not surewhy you've invalidated his first two feats there. BP has never replicated the explosion of the second feat with his standard gear, which Logan healed from instantly.

In the third example Wolverine is tanking hits from Thor which is utterly inconsistent with Logan's capabilities since ya know, Thor is a high tier with superior striking to that of the Hulk's who has one shotted Logan in the past.

That was Ragnarok, Thor's clone, who is still quite powerful. Logan kept fighting despite being fried with lightning. That lightning attack would have also killed Logan's nerves, yet he kept on fighting. Wolverine has also tanked electricity other times.

The Hiroshima thing is very impressive though, but it clearly pushed Logan to his absolute limits.

Can you show me where it "clearly" pushed Wolverine to his limits? BP's damage output is nowhere that of an atom bomb anyways, so it's a moot point.

He can't avoid Wolverine forever. They are both pretty much even in skill and speed.

I would give T'Challa a small edge in both of those categories, and BP can hold him off with his range, AOE, shields, and teleportation.

No, at best T'Challa has a slight edge in speed and Logan has a slight edge in skill, hence these two attributes being pretty much a non factor in this fight. His standard gear seems to be claws, daggers and kinetic energy blasts at the moment. T'Challa needs to build up damage to release energy, but Logan has the potential to one-shot him anyway.

Not to mention Logan's HF, which will let him take a lot of punishment.

He can take a fair amount of punishment, but he can also be overloaded,

Which T'Challa doesn't have the capability of doing.

T'Challa can use his bombs,

These will be tanked, not to mention that namor bombs are not standard equipment.

nerve killing energy daggers,

An inferior Wolverine has already no-sold nerve killing attacks.

or his more powerful strikes to stun Wolverine,

More powerful how? His punches and kicks are going to be doing nothing.

which will allow him to follow up by phasing a dagger through Logan's brain, or simply repeating the process until Logan drops.

Oh yeah, I get you. Logan is just going to stand there casually and let T'Challa "repeat the process". It's as simple as this: Speed and skill are too close to call. Logan can one-shot, T'Challa can not. Any damage that T'Challa does will be healed. Any damage that Logan does will continually take a toll on BP.

The same can't be said for BP. Logan's claws are going to go through BP's vibranium suit like butter and do major damage which T'Challa simply can't recover from. From there it's an uphill battle for him.

I think I've already covered how BP can avoid taking too much damage.

But it's only going to take one-sot from Logan, while it's going to take T'Challa a very long time.

Overall Black Panther is too skilled

Absolutely not, I've proven this already. If anyone is more skilled it's Wolverine.

and versatile for Wolverine to win a majority over, it's a super close battle, but at the end of the day I give it to T'Challa.

Versatility alone does not win you battles, that's pretty obvious.

Also you're forgetting that Danny is in this fight too. The fact that all 3 are going to be taking damage is why Logan wins, he's going to be constantly healing while the others are going to be getting more damaged. Wolverine wins this fight mainly due to his healing factor, which is a huge advantage in group fights.

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Supermanwithatan01

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That’s a great breakdown. I don’t know honestly, I believe it’s between Wolverine and Iron fist actually.

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WritersAreOP

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I go Black Panther first round and Wolverine second. Wolverine is weakened HEAVILY by morals, but he's got better speed feats than either and crazy durability. The fact that BP and IF are fighting each other as well as him, meaning he would have easy full recovery time, gives him a huge advantage.

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Black Panther's suit would get shredded during the fight which is why I think he would come in second to Iron Fist. Wolverine would come in last imo.

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I'd go Logan, Danny then T'Challa

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Supermanwithatan01

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Wolviesnikt

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Probably Wolverine.

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comic_book_fan

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wolverine is stronger just as fast and far more durable and more skilled he wins this danny has a shot if he lands clean with a full power punch and then it's only a maybe but he is a glass canon panther puts up a better fight because he is closer to wolverine in speed and strength but in the end wolverine wins.

the only way either of them win this is if they team up to take logan out then fight each other even then they better hurry.

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jay_z94

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Black Panther's suit would get shredded during the fight which is why I think he would come in second to Iron Fist. Wolverine would come in last imo.

Deathstroke would obviously solo all three though

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jay_z94

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@jay_z94: i am assuming this is a joke

No. Deathstroke is vastly more skilled due to reasons. He is also faster than all of them combined because he tagged the Flash.

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jay_z94

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#181  Edited By jay_z94
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Warlockmage

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#183  Edited By jay_z94
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Supermanwithatan01

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@jay_z94: Is Logan able to out-skill T’Challa as well as out-skill Danny? Do you still back him to win in a morals off, no holding back, all out fight assuming T’Challa has all his gear (energy daggers, anti-metal claws, vibranium suit, heart-shaped-herb etc.) and Danny is fully using his chi?

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I don't think Danny can beat Logan at all. I'd put T'Challa above Danny, and probably around a stalemate with Logan. Overall, I think it goes T'Challa, then Logan, than Danny.

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jay_z94

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#186  Edited By jay_z94

@supermanwithatan01 said:

@jay_z94: Is Logan able to out-skill T’Challa as well as out-skill Danny? Do you still back him to win in a morals off, no holding back, all out fight assuming T’Challa has all his gear (energy daggers, anti-metal claws, vibranium suit, heart-shaped-herb etc.) and Danny is fully using his chi?

I don't think he'd out-skill them, they are all in the same ball park. Logan vs T'Challa with that gear, I'm leaning towards Logan as he can tank T'Challa's damage better than the other way round.

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#188 morpheus_  Moderator

Danny gets stomped.

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jay_z94

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@morpheus_: @blackspidey2099: How come both of you think Danny definitely loses? I don’t follow him but I thought he was always regarded as a top-tier street leveller alongside Spidey, Logan, etc

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1. Wolverine
2. Rest

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#192  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator

@jay_z94 said:

@morpheus_: @blackspidey2099: How come both of you think Danny definitely loses? I don’t follow him but I thought he was always regarded as a top-tier street leveller alongside Spidey, Logan, etc

Danny fought Black Panther while completely bloodlusted after the Black Dragon reignited his power, and T'Challa managed to stalemate him; T'Challa got an aneurism for his efforts but it proves the vibranium armor can stand up to the iron fist in a prolonged encounter - even though it is worth noting that Danny should be both more powerful (after absorbing Orson Randall's chi) and more skilled (due to studying the book of the Iron Fist) since then.

In effect, you have three characters roughly on par with one another in skill, where one has devastating offence but the other two have a defense (vibranium suit, superhuman durability) to counter it. Danny is faster than Logan and T'Challa but not to a degree where he will blitz them, and even if he somehow could, it'd have to be an immediate killing stroke, which is unlikely.

All that in the bloodlusted round, though. Danny hesitates to use his powers offensively against fellow heroes unless he absolutely has to in character, which is why Elektra nearly killed him.

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@morpheus_: would you call the differences is speed and skill negligible or considerable between any of the 3? Essentially, these seem like the 3 most skilled, "street" level heroes I can think of.

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@jay_z94: Morpheus pretty much explained it already, but essentially I think Danny's biggest advantage against street level characters like T'Challa or Logan would be the offensive power of his Iron Fist, and both T'Challa and Logan have counters to that due to their gear/powers.

Logan vs T'Challa is closer since Logan should theoretically be able to pierce the suit, but I think T'Challa would have an easier time incapacitating Logan with his vibranium rope thingies or an energy dagger than Logan would have fatally stabbing T'Challa.

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#195  Edited By cokirules

Tchalla

Probably Iron Fist

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Fist, not sure

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jay_z94 said:
@supermanwithatan01 said:

@jay_z94: Is Logan able to out-skill T’Challa as well as out-skill Danny? Do you still back him to win in a morals off, no holding back, all out fight assuming T’Challa has all his gear (energy daggers, anti-metal claws, vibranium suit, heart-shaped-herb etc.) and Danny is fully using his chi?

I don't think he'd out-skill them, they are all in the same ball park. Logan vs T'Challa with that gear, I'm leaning towards Logan as he can tank T'Challa's damage better than the other way round.

Maybe “out-skill” is the wrong term. Do you believe that Logan is more skilled than Danny or T’Challa? Even if it’s slightly or marginal, it’s something.

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@jay_z94 said:

@morpheus_: @blackspidey2099: How come both of you think Danny definitely loses? I don’t follow him but I thought he was always regarded as a top-tier street leveller alongside Spidey, Logan, etc

Danny fought Black Panther while completely bloodlusted after the Black Dragon reignited his power, and T'Challa managed to stalemate him; T'Challa got an aneurism for his efforts but it proves the vibranium armor can stand up to the iron fist in a prolonged encounter - even though it is worth noting that Danny should be both more powerful (after absorbing Orson Randall's chi) and more skilled (due to studying the book of the Iron Fist) since then.

In effect, you have three characters roughly on par with one another in skill, where one has devastating offence but the other two have a defense (vibranium suit, superhuman durability) to counter it. Danny is faster than Logan and T'Challa but not to a degree where he will blitz them, and even if he somehow could, it'd have to be an immediate killing stroke, which is unlikely.

All that in the bloodlusted round, though. Danny hesitates to use his powers offensively against fellow heroes unless he absolutely has to in character, which is why Elektra nearly killed him.

Specifically in regards to Danny vs T'Challa, I discussed this with Static last year... I discussed T'Challa having the heartshaped herb, the vibranium suit, energy daggers, lol hell even his teleporter and when he had the invisibility thing.... and this was his response: (it also has his opinion about T'Challa fighting Danny back in the day but discussed Danny being far more powerful and more skilled to boot)

@marvelz0mbie said:

@static_shock: I know that fans argue BP can't be gassed and I've read him breath in space with Mr. Fantastic tech.

So what we both agree on is that Black Panther is really inconsistent?

Additionally do you have any proof that IF was given a power increase in his fight with Black Panther? I'd like to know more about that

Well, he can't be gassed because the suit has chemical gates in it. Nightshade deduced this when she realized her gas pellets didn't work on him (which she uses to control the minds of men around her).

No Caption Provided

As for Black Panther being inconsistent, I'd say that his Vibranium suit can be inconsistently portrayed for certain reasons. If it worked the way it's supposed to all of the time against physical attacks, Black Panther would never get hurt or knocked back. That wouldn't exactly be fair in fights against other street-level characters when attempting to move the story along. It's the same as Superman not using the full extent of his powers in every single fight or holding back against characters that are at or around his level. He'd be pretty damn unstoppable if he was written otherwise. But that's about it.

The proof was in the issue before and during the fight.

In issue 38 of Black Panther vol 2, Ross states that Iron Fist lost his powers prior to this fight, something about them being stolen. Later in the book, Chiangtang (disguised as Everett Ross) approaches Iron Fist from behind, and restores his powers while inducing post-hypnotic suggestions at the same time to make him evil. If you look at the picture, Danny is releasing Chi from both hands, when before this, he was only able to do this from one hand. This isn't first time that Danny experienced this. The first time Chiangtang did this to him was in Power Man/Iron Fist #119. IIRC, Luke Cage fought him in the following issue, and the effect of Danny being made evil and being powered up past normal levels was the same. I'll post scans from PM/IF #119-120 later.

Also, during the fight, Danny is able to use his restored Chi powers for the whole battle and was able to strike Panther multiple times with it without fatigue. Prior to this, Danny didn't have the ability to use his Chi in that manner for the amount of time he was able to use it against T'Challa; he was originally only able to use his Chi for one strike at normal levels and had to wait to use again later. I don't need to post the whole fight, since you've already seen that.

After the fight, T'Challa resuscitates Danny and massages his head to release him from the hypnotic effect that Chiangtang put on him. When he awakes, his powers go back to normal levels. This is indicated in the image below, in which Danny is only able to generate Chi from one hand, like he used to.

No Caption Provided

In the following issue, T'Challa says this to Danny.

No Caption Provided

Chiangtang moving his Chi out of balance suggests that he gave Danny the ability to use more Chi than he was originally able to. Hence, he was powered up.

@supermanwithatan01 said:

@static_shock: just to be clear lol you back Danny over T'Challa even if BP has his energy daggers, teleporter, invisibility, vibranium suit and heart shaped herb? At their peaks

A few things...

  • T'Challa uses his energy daggers less and less these days, and if thrown, they can be dodged. Besides, Danny can block or deflect them with his Chi, like he's doing in the scan below.
  • T'Challa's short range teleporter was a one-and-done thing. He has only used it once since New Avengers, and even then, he hasn't used it in a one-on-one fight. Even if he decided to use it, I don't think it would make a difference. Danny was able to time Nightcrawler's teleportation before (and then tag him accordingly), while he was at his original power levels.
  • Invisibility doesn't matter that much. Danny's Chi has augmented his senses to the point where he can hear sweat rolling down someone's cheek. He would be able to detect T'Challa if he decided to use it.
  • The Vibranium suit was trashed when T'Challa fought powered up/evil Danny. Now, Danny is way more powerful than that. The Vibranium suit will get trashed again.
  • Heart-Shaped Herb or King of the Dead physical enhancements don't really matter. Both are superhuman, yet no noticeable differences between the two. Danny is still physically more powerful in his current state than T'Challa ever will be. Plus, Danny is a better fighter, too.

I know in your comment you mentioned a lot of the same points, including that Danny is more skilled and more powerful now. But you did say you think Danny would get "stomped", so I was wondering if that is tied specifically to his morality compared to T'Challa's and Logan's?