Iron Fist vs Ronin

Iron doesn't use his chi punch

Iron Fist.

I take that this is Barton as Ronin.
In that case IF demolishes Ronin even without the use of the Iron Fist power.
IF is a significantly superior hand to hand fighter.

I'd imagine Echo would have a better chance but I don't see her winning either.

Iron Fist beats either Echo or Clint  as Ronin even without the Chi power

Iron Fist. His power now is awesome.

IRON FIST ALL THE WAY

"weapon x badazz said:

"Iron Fist beats either Echo or Clint  as Ronin even without the Chi power"

I don't know if he can take Echo."

"weapon x badazz said:

"Vance Astro said:

"weapon x badazz said:

"Iron Fist beats either Echo or Clint  as Ronin even without the Chi power"

I don't know if he can take Echo."

Well it would be a harder fight but i still think Danny just comes out on top"

iF Echo really wanted to take him out she would.Danny is a fair fighter..she isn't.Remember when she shanked Elektra and shot Daredevil?"

"weapon x badazz said:

"Vance Astro said:

"weapon x badazz said:

"Iron Fist beats either Echo or Clint  as Ronin even without the Chi power"

I don't know if he can take Echo."

Well it would be a harder fight but i still think Danny just comes out on top"

iF Echo really wanted to take him out she would.Danny is a fair fighter..she isn't.Remember when she shanked Elektra and shot Daredevil?"

"StrongestOneThereIs said:

"Vance Astro said:

"weapon x badazz said:

"Vance Astro said:

"weapon x badazz said:

"Iron Fist beats either Echo or Clint  as Ronin even without the Chi power"

I don't know if he can take Echo."

Well it would be a harder fight but i still think Danny just comes out on top"

iF Echo really wanted to take him out she would.Danny is a fair fighter..she isn't.Remember when she shanked Elektra and shot Daredevil?"

u have to kiddin.She isn't on DD level. no way she could beat Iron Fist"

Did you read the arc where she fought DD? "

Echo is seriously being downplayed in this thread. If we're talking post-Avengers Echo, then she takes Danny with no Iron Fist. Echo has studied Daredevil thoroughly with her photographic reflexes and can replicate his movements perfectly. During her time with the Avengers, she's fought against the Hand and probably has picked up moves from them, she's fought alongside Clint and Iron Fist himself, so she's probably picked up moves there, not to mention all the other people she's fought alongside that she could probably imitate such as Spider-Man and Wolverine.

All in all, I think she'd know enough of Danny's moves to be able to know how to put him down. I mean, Danny did sort of lose to Sue Richards after training her for a month, I think and she matched him hand to hand, he was forced to use his Iron Fist and went too far during their spar.

"StrongestOneThereIs said:

that's one story. She couldn't beat a fake Elektra.Her ability is to imitate like Taskmaster. Where is the skill that comes from discipline of learning?"

And you said..I have to be kidding? I didn't bring up Elektra to say Echo could beat her.I mentioned it to say Echo fights dirty.If you recall the skrull Elektra ended up dead because Echo snuck up on her and ran her through.

Unlike Taskmaster..Echo was actually trained,so again I ask, Did you read the arc where she fought DD?

"

"StrongestOneThereIs said:

"Vance Astro said:

"StrongestOneThereIs said:

that's one story. She couldn't beat a fake Elektra.Her ability is to imitate like Taskmaster. Where is the skill that comes from discipline of learning?"

And you said..I have to be kidding? I didn't bring up Elektra to say Echo could beat her.I mentioned it to say Echo fights dirty.If you recall the skrull Elektra ended up dead because Echo snuck up on her and ran her through.

Unlike Taskmaster..Echo was actually trained,so again I ask, Did you read the arc where she fought DD?

"

Reading it or not it's one story and she has shown nothing to suggest a skill near that of DD, Elektra or Iron Fist. Sneaking up on someone distracted is just bad form. But how would that help her in a one on one fight?

And even if she was Iron Fist's skill level, she could never match his power.

She can't win. Barton has a better chance. "

So you're just going to be completely ignorant about this huh? She has shown plenty to suggest that she is in DD's league in fact her powers alone and the styles she's copied put her above DD.You keep saying "one story" as if to say nothing can be shown in "one story".You know how many feats can fit into one comic,let alone an entire arc?

Do you even read my posts? I am not saying that Echo sneaking up on Elektra is a display of her ability or skill just that it shows she will do what she has to,to win.If you actually knew anything about Echo you would know she didn't want to fight Elektra in the first place.She claimed she was terrified of her.Her fear held her back.

Clint is not a better fighter than Echo.

"

"Vance Astro said:

"weapon x badazz said:

"Vance Astro said:

"weapon x badazz said:

"Iron Fist beats either Echo or Clint  as Ronin even without the Chi power"

I don't know if he can take Echo."

Well it would be a harder fight but i still think Danny just comes out on top"

iF Echo really wanted to take him out she would.Danny is a fair fighter..she isn't.Remember when she shanked Elektra and shot Daredevil?"

Yea thats true but in overall h2h combat skill Danny is better? photographic reflexes or not "

 I agree"

"Alpha said:

 I agree"

How is Danny better in overall skill? The only think he has over her is his chi attacks.That doesn't make him a more skilled fighter.She has Daredevil's acrobatic ability, Bullsye's accuracy,and Barton's armed combat ability.How is Danny the more skilled fighter?"

"Vance Astro said:

"Alpha said:

 I agree"

How is Danny better in overall skill? The only think he has over her is his chi attacks.That doesn't make him a more skilled fighter.She has Daredevil's acrobatic ability, Bullsye's accuracy,and Barton's armed combat ability.How is Danny the more skilled fighter?"

I think Danny has them too but at a higher degree because of his training. She may be as accurate like Bullseye, but she isn't bullseye, therefore she isn't as good. Being able to duplicate someone doesn't mean you are even with them. If that was the case, characters like Echo, Task Master and Prometheus would be unstoppable."

"Alpha said:

"Vance Astro said:

"Alpha said:

 I agree"

How is Danny better in overall skill? The only think he has over her is his chi attacks.That doesn't make him a more skilled fighter.She has Daredevil's acrobatic ability, Bullsye's accuracy,and Barton's armed combat ability.How is Danny the more skilled fighter?"

I think Danny has them too but at a higher degree because of his training. She may be as accurate like Bullseye, but she isn't bullseye, therefore she isn't as good. Being able to duplicate someone doesn't mean you are even with them. If that was the case, characters like Echo, Task Master and Prometheus would be unstoppable."

Danny isn't anywhere near DD's acrobatic ability.He said so himself.His accuracy is nowhere near Bullseye's either.She doesn't have to be Bullseye,she's better.She knows all his moves plus others.Echo and Taskmaster copy moves exactly.Echo may not think like Bullseye but she is able to use all of his skills effectively."

They wouldn't be unstoppable, they would be difficult to beat. Taskmaster has not just shown that he can emulate movements, but has a knowledge of the body due to the movements he's copied, also. For example; when he was watching Stature, Ant-Man and Yellowjacket tussle in their giant forms, he was able to put all three down flat on their asses with one shield throw and stated how he did so via the Achilles tendon. This is why Taskmaster has been recruited so many times to train large groups of people, because if he didn't understand the mechanics of the moves he attained and martial arts he's copied, he wouldn't be able to teach them.

That goes double for Echo, especially with Echo's previous training in boxing before she even bothered to started using her photographic reflexes to emulate Daredevil and Bullseye.

Danny does not have any enhanced speed or strength, he's not using his Iron Fist, Echo puts him down. The fact of the matter is, Echo has been around Iron Fist too long for him to have that much up his sleeve. She's seen him fight, and even if she doesn't emulate his style during the fight, she'd still know what's coming before it comes when it comes to him, IMHO.

 I remember in Daredevil #179, Iron Fist kept pace with Daredevil step for acrobatic step. I agree that he isn't as good in the field as Daredevil, but he isn't so bad that he can't be a threat in the area.I can't agree with your assessment that someone who copies abilities are better than the one they copied, so I will leave that as a difference of opinion.But you didn't address my statement that there are tings she can't copy like speed and strength. Danny is faster in my opinion and without doubt stronger. "

"They wouldn't be unstoppable, they would be difficult to beat. Taskmaster has not just shown that he can emulate movements, but has a knowledge of the body due to the movements he's copied, also. For example; when he was watching Stature, Ant-Man and Yellowjacket tussle in their giant forms, he was able to put all three down flat on their asses with one shield throw and stated how he did so via the Achilles tendon. This is why Taskmaster has been recruited so many times to train large groups of people, because if he didn't understand the mechanics of the moves he attained and martial arts he's copied, he wouldn't be able to teach them.That goes double for Echo, especially with Echo's previous training in boxing before she even bothered to started using her photographic reflexes to emulate Daredevil and Bullseye.Danny does not have any enhanced speed or strength, he's not using his Iron Fist, Echo puts him down. The fact of the matter is, Echo has been around Iron Fist too long for him to have that much up his sleeve. She's seen him fight, and even if she doesn't emulate his style during the fight, she'd still know what's coming before it comes when it comes to him, IMHO."

I haven't seen anything from Echo to suggest that she can fan away multiple objects moving faster than bullets. "

"Alpha said:

I haven't seen anything from Echo to suggest that she can fan away multiple objects moving faster than bullets. "

Because Echo hasn't existed that long it's obvious Iron Fist will have better feats."

"Vance Astro said:

"Alpha said:

I haven't seen anything from Echo to suggest that she can fan away multiple objects moving faster than bullets. "

Because Echo hasn't existed that long it's obvious Iron Fist will have better feats."

Or he is better. Or at least faster.
Iron Fist is a better fighter simply because of his training. Echo has trained herself mostly from copied skills, when iron Fist and others like him have a higher level of discipline because of how they have attained their skill. And yes, i know she has gained many duplicated skills, but Iron Fist has also learned many as well.

My opinion and it is open to change, you just haven't gave me anything to consider.
But this is a good debate.

To me, this is the old debate of who is better, the person who is a great fighter (Iron fist) or the person who fights great (Echo)?"

"Alpha said:

"Vance Astro said:

"Alpha said:

I haven't seen anything from Echo to suggest that she can fan away multiple objects moving faster than bullets. "

Because Echo hasn't existed that long it's obvious Iron Fist will have better feats."

Or he is better. Or at least faster.
Iron Fist is a better fighter simply because of his training. Echo has trained herself mostly from copied skills, when iron Fist and others like him have a higher level of discipline because of how they have attained their skill. And yes, i know she has gained many duplicated skills, but Iron Fist has also learned many as well.

My opinion and it is open to change, you just haven't gave me anything to consider.
But this is a good debate.

To me, this is the old debate of who is better, the person who is a great fighter (Iron fist) or the person who fights great (Echo)?"

That's merely speculation.We never saw Echo in a similar situation or any situation where speed was key to survive.I don't see what you don't get about training and photographic reflexes.First of all,Echo was trained.Second of all she has the skills and moves of fighters nearing or on Danny's level.Discipline doesn't mean jack.Cap has more discipline than most and you saw what Taskmaster did to him (maybe you did maybe you didn't but Taskmaster beat him).The only reason Echo would have trouble with Danny is because she has not learned as many skills as Taskmaster.You have to consider though she doesn't have any of his same character flaws."

This debate has given me the idea for another forum

Danny

"Danny"

Ill stick with my original choice which was Danny

"Ill stick with my original choice which was Danny"

"Alpha said:

Have you ever participated in any physical sport?I ask only cause you actually said that "discipline doesn't mean jack".But you also feel that experience means nothing so it's not surprising.Out difference of opinion are based on ideas that can't be accepted, so it isn't going anywhere. "

Yes..I played Basketball in High School.

I don't think experience means nothing.I think it means nothing in certain instances..just like discipline here.

There is a certain point where neither experience or anything else is relevant.For example.Nick Fury is more experienced,better disciplined,and has alot more tactical intellect than Daredevil.However Daredevil is so skilled (Even in Fury's opinion) that none of that even matters.Daredevil would still be able to beat him because of other factors.You cannot name one instance in comics where someone won because they were more experienced or more disciplined without the opponent having a SEVERE lack of it.

"

"Alpha said:

How does any character beat another when they are evenly matched?
It always comes down to some advantage the other has beyond just power or skill. Intelligence, experience and sometimes williingness to go beyond the standard.


When coming to a conclusion you have to consider all factors that are relevant. "

What does that question have to do with my post?

And why are you telling me something I already know?

"

"Alpha said:

"Vance Astro said:

"Alpha said:

How does any character beat another when they are evenly matched?
It always comes down to some advantage the other has beyond just power or skill. Intelligence, experience and sometimes williingness to go beyond the standard.


When coming to a conclusion you have to consider all factors that are relevant. "

What does that question have to do with my post?

And why are you telling me something I already know?

"

Because it doesn't seem that you know it.You debate before that experience and discipline are not factors to be considered. Now if you saying that they do, then we are ended for this part.As far as the Nick Fury example. One problem with that. Nick Fury isn't experienced in the type of skill that Daredevil has. It's like Batman and Wildcat. Put Batman in a boxing ring and he will get beat by Wildcat. But Echo and Iron Fist share very similar skill set. Enough to make a comparison when discipline in that skill and experience are strong factors. Along with strength and speed. Echo can't beat Iron Fist because though her ability gives her instant skill that may equal Iron Fist, factors like discipline and experience with those skills are a major factor that Iron Fist has over her. Along with speed and strength. "

If Experience or Discipline meant anything in comics..I asked you to give me an experience where it did matter IN COMICS where the opponent who had lost due to being inferior in discipline or experience didn't have a severe lack of it.

You can't give me instance because their isn't any.Unless it's a Veteran like Cap vs. a Rookie like Kate Bishop.

Wildcat would beat Batman in a boxing match..not because he's more experienced but because he's simply the better boxer and he's alot stronger.If Echo was Batman she would have copied his style exactly thus making her his equal.Copying someone and being trained by them is completely different.Everyone Cap trained will not fight as well or just like him,Everyone Iron Fist trained,same thing and so on and so forth.

Echo and Iron Fist DO NOT have similar skills.Not even close.

"

1) I thought you wanted an example in comics. I didn't know it had to exclusive to Marvel, but I'm certain I can find one.
2) The scan has a lot to do with experience. Experience as a soldier and experience in fighting Superman before. That is all experience. Zod isn't Midnighter or Lady Shiva. He doesn't read movements.
3) This is a created battle thread between Iron Fist and Echo. Since they never fought we have to condisder all factors to come to a conclusion. That will be:

Their skill (the forms and discipline)
Their abilities (speed, strength, agility)
Then there is their experience.

Are you basing this on the fact you think Marvel doesn't care to do it? Are you Marvel? Why are you using standards of others to come ot your own conclusion? Are there are some rule if the comic company don't do it we can't consider it, even if it is in the relm of the character?
Here is a question for you. Have you ever saw a abilitiy used in a battle thread that hasn't been used in a comic, but based on the character, it could be done?

You really think some new kid on the block being equal in skill with Daredevil could beat him with all his years of experience fighting. It's like that new Lady Bullseye. She gave him a hard time their first meeting cause he was distracted with all that was going on. Their second meeting was different.

Echo duplicates skills. She ddidn't earn them like Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Daredevil or Cap.
She could never beat them with those skills. At best she could hold her own.

With his logic we coudn't say that Gladiator could defeat an opponent by flying them into the sun like Sentry since Marvel doesnt have him do it.

Vance your losing brownie points.

Iron Fist has years of experience fighting super-powered opponents, but we can't used that fact cause marvel doesnt care about experience, so Echo has a better chance of winning a battle against a powered foe if Iron fist don't use the iron fist.

LOL! Thanks for the laugh Fancie Vancie baby!

I'm leaving this debate to the other forum.

My opinion here is Iron Fist is better skilled and a over all better fighter than Echo/Ronin and would win.
It is evident in any comic that shows him.