I figured that since Jason has taken on Batman, Nightwing and Robin at one time or another and given them a good run then he might stand a chance. Not a good one perhaps but still a chance.
" You can give Jason more than that he will still lose Jason is an awful fighter "
Jason Todd loses, certainly, but he is no way and awful fighter "
He really is due to his emotion they will never allow him to advance and will always get him into situations he is totally screwed in "
Whether they due or not, his skills have still been proven to be higher than many of the top martial artists, he beat tim, he beat dick, and he even did well against Batman
They're roughly equal in fighting skills because Jason has beaten top-notch martial artists that are around (better or inferior a bit) Danny's level and he has feats on par with Danny. After undergoing Al-Caste training, he's gotten an upgrade.
They're roughly equal in fighting skills because Jason has beaten top-notch martial artists that are around (better or inferior a bit) Danny's level and he has feats on par with Danny. After undergoing Al-Caste training, he's gotten an upgrade.
Without Chi it could go either way.
Iron Fist is a lot more skilled, faster, and stronger than Jason.
There are multiple threads that have gone on for pages regarding Danny fighting Cassie Cain without his chi that have some of the best debaters on the vine split...
Jason stands no chance here without prep. I like Red Hood as a character and it seems he's finally past the cycle of being either just out for blood and emo or always trying to redeem himself. But he loses this fight..
@nathaniel_adam: In terms of skill, Iron Fist has fought and stalemated, if not gotten the upper hand of higher tier hand-to-hand combatants over a longer period of time than Jason ever has. He's stalemated Daredevil, Deadpool, Black Panther, fought Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Colossus simultaneously, and even defeated Sabretooth in his prime while blind. None of these Jason can replicate.
In terms of speed, Danny has outright caught a rifle bullet from behind him with his bare hands.
And for strength, we're all aware that with chi he massively outclasses Jason regardless of any gear he has considering his famous feat of busting a SHIELD helicarrier.
@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: not to mention Dannys KO'd a skyscraper-sized god, caught a bullet before it's left the chamber after its fired, and might be marvels best pure martial artist atm.
If Jobberines feat of outskilling Danny is legitimate, then Jason one shots Ironfist.
What do you mean by Jobberine? When Logan beat Danny it was impressive, but it was only a sparring session. Not only that, but IIRC, it was after Wolverine got a refresher course so he was at the top of his game martial arts wise. Wolverine may be a bit inconsistent with his martial arts prowess, but it's mostly towards useless fodder. He has a plethora of consistent and impressive hand-to-hand and close quarters showings against the top-tier street levelers of Marvel that Red Hood would fall flat trying to accomplish.
The only true Jobberine I know is Cornell's Wolverine, which we all know was horribly written. There is no way Jason Todd can one-shot Iron Fist considering the feats I just posted. And even if you regard Wolverine as that low of a street leveler in terms of martial arts prowess, wouldn't that just be cherry picking and low balling Danny considering the feats I've mentioned like him flooring Sabretooth while blind and fighting the likes of Daredevil and Black Panther?
The Red Hood wank is truly bad when people genuinely think Jason would not just beat Iron Fist, but one-shot him. Absolutely ridiculous.
In terms of skill, Iron Fist has fought and stalemated, if not gotten the upper hand of higher tier hand-to-hand combatants over a longer period of time than Jason ever has. He's stalemated Daredevil, Deadpool, Black Panther, fought Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Colossus simultaneously, and even defeated Sabretooth in his prime while blind. None of these Jason can replicate.
In my opinion none of those you mentioned are more skilled than Batman nor Cassandra nor Lady Shiva and Jason's beaten them all somehow.
In terms of speed, Danny has outright caught a rifle bullet from behind him with his bare hands.
I think it depends on your view of what kind of speed is essential. While that's a very impressive feat of reaction to projectiles, it just doesn't translate into having the same or near that level of combative speed, which has been established and indicated over and over in the comics for years. As instances are Daredevil (deflecting bullets), Moonknight (cutting bullets), Deathstroke (deflecting bullets), Katana (Deflecting bullets) but none of them show supersonic reaction speed during close quarters combat otherwise they should've been able to react/dodge/parry the hits of their oponnents, since nobody punches near supersonic speed.
And for strength, we're all aware that with chi he massively outclasses Jason regardless of any gear he has considering his famous feat of busting a SHIELD helicarrier.
There are multiple threads that have gone on for pages regarding Danny fighting Cassie Cain without his chi that have some of the best debaters on the vine split...
Jason stands no chance here without prep. I like Red Hood as a character and it seems he's finally past the cycle of being either just out for blood and emo or always trying to redeem himself. But he loses this fight..
Jason "subdued" Cassandra twice in a short fight. Shouldn't he be a greater than her?
@nathaniel_adam: Meh idk, the way it played out was she attacked him but she was there to talk. The logic being that to her, combat is how true assassins communicate. So there's a thought process insisting she wasn't actually in real danger just trying to talk, and another suggesting he would be able to take her the longer they fought. Jason's as skilled as Nightwing and iirc has gotten the upper hand on Bruce and in the New 52 he's 1-shotted Shiva which is ridiculous. But given Cassie's specific skillset, speed and her consistent feats she should mop the floor with any of the Bat family not named Bruce. Even Slade Wilson admitted the only way to beat Cass is to get in her head. Danny on the other hand is as fast as Cass, is at least as skilled as her and with his chi has shredded vibranium, tanked nuclear energy blasts, 1-shotted skyscraper sized buildings, moved faster than bullets could leave chambers, and obviously he 1shotted the hellicarrier years ago.
Danny is a compelling story. His costume could use some work imo lol and I could see how his character offends some demographics but I find him to be intriguing.
And for the record I believe Wolverine to be more skilled than any of them save maybe Danny after his Book of Iron fist lessons. Black Panthers probably same level as Bruce and Shiva and Cassie, but Cassie's advantage is her speed which is supposedly not metahuman but makes no sense otherwise.
In terms of skill, Iron Fist has fought and stalemated, if not gotten the upper hand of higher tier hand-to-hand combatants over a longer period of time than Jason ever has. He's stalemated Daredevil, Deadpool, Black Panther, fought Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Colossus simultaneously, and even defeated Sabretooth in his prime while blind. None of these Jason can replicate.
In my opinion none of those you mentioned are more skilled than Batman nor Cassandra nor Lady Shiva and Jason's beaten them all somehow.
Your opinion would be wrong. Black Panther and Wolverine are all combatants that are at the minimum equal to Batman in terms of martial arts skill. Daredevil and Deadpool are also in Bruce's league as well, with Wade being equal to Bruce if not being slightly below him.
Jason's showings against Lady Shiva and Cassandra are both New 52, in which their incarnations are not nearly as impressive as their Pre-Flashpoint feats, which you seem to be implying. I've already explained this before in a previous argument we've had regarding Red Hood's showing against these characters, so I'll post it again:
Better in what context? Because in a fight most of the characters I have mentioned would either stalemate Batman or outright defeat him. If not, they'd still give him more of a challenge than Jason ever could. Daredevil, Bullseye, and Punisher are arguably inferior to Bruce in the sense that they would lose in a fight against him, yet they would all still be able to soundly defeat Red Hood. Your ABC logic is at the very best incredibly flawed because of this. Then there's characters like Wolverine, Iron Fist, and Captain America. Wolverine and Iron Fist would both defeat Batman and are also better than Bruce in terms of martial arts prowess, or at the minimum at his level. Captain America himself would stalemate Bruce and in terms of pure technical martial arts knowledge, Steve is only a bit below Bruce himself. Yet Deadpool has stalemated Steve in hand-to-hand combat, stalemated Iron Fist, and done pretty well against Logan and even gained the advantage against him in both Wolverine vol.2 #155 and Wolverine Annual '99, both of which are in Logan's own title.
Lady Shiva in terms of pure martial arts knowledge Pre-Flashpoint is usually Batman level if not above. IIRC, Batman was watching Connor Hawke and Lady Shiva fight in hand-to-hand combat and remarked that he had had lasted longer than even Bruce could against her, indicating that Shiva was for the most part Bruce's superior in the martial arts department. And then we have the showing in Batman vol.1 #427 where he was stalemating her. This completely outclasses anything New 52 Shiva is capable of to such a large degree it isn't even funny. It's almost common knowledge that New 52 Shiva pales in comparison to Pre-Flashpoint and that she's pretty much just a jobber at this point.
Cassandra Cain in the New 52 as far as I'm aware isn't as impressive as her Pre-Flashpoint version either, and like you said it was a short fight where Cassandra was, according to even Dick Grayson's own words, trying to protect him.
Source: Batman and Robin Eternal #3
And even then, I have already had an extensive argument in the past as to why Deadpool can match Cassandra Cain in terms of martial arts prowess. Whether or not Cassandra is superior to Logan and Iron Fist in terms of martial arts prowess is also highly debatable. As I have detailed earlier in this post, both Danny and Logan have incredibly impressive hand-to-hand combat feats that can contend with almost any top-tier DC martial artist you can think of.
You cannot equate Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain's Pre-Flashpoint feats and level of martial arts skill to their relatively to even drastically in Lady Shiva's instance, different new incarnations. You can't just say he's beaten them "somehow". That's ignoring a lot of important context not only with their versions but also the situation revolving around these feats.
I think it depends on your view of what kind of speed is essential. While that's a very impressive feat of reaction to projectiles, it just doesn't translate into having the same or near that level of combative speed, which has been established and indicated over and over in the comics for years. As instances are Daredevil (deflecting bullets), Moonknight (cutting bullets), Deathstroke (deflecting bullets), Katana (Deflecting bullets) but none of them show supersonic reaction speed during close quarters combat otherwise they should've been able to react/dodge/parry the hits of their oponnents, since nobody punches near supersonic speed.
Yet you can say the exact same thing for Red Hood. The fact is, the level of street levelers as well as their own impressive speed feats that Iron Fist fights against, as well as other bullet-timing and impressive speed feats generally reinforce the fact that Danny is in fact faster. Why? Because Jason Todd also gets tagged by other street levelers (who are less impressive than the ones Danny fights against mind you), and he cannot replicate the feat of catching a bullet that Iron Fist did with utmost ease. When characters have feats of dodging or in this case catching high-caliber sniper rounds, it generally means that they have superior reaction time than their opponent if they can't replicate the same feat. Red Hood has been tagged by Batman, Nightwing, Damian Wayne, and other street-levelers too. Meanwhile Danny has not only fought against more impressive combatants (save for Bruce who's on their caliber, but even Batman mopped the floor with Jason) but he also has feats like dodging in the micro-second range.
Regardless, Iron Fist has fought against higher tier street-levelers and stalemated them, which does account for speed in-combat. The man has fought Gorgon for crying out loud. Jason would get decapitated in an instant if he ever fought against Gorgon. There is an obvious speed disparity between the two combatants in this fight.
How hard does he strike without using his Chi?
He's peak human without chi, but I don't see how that question is even relevant when OP has no rules against Danny using his chi whatsoever. Let's not forget that the whole reason Danny even has the Iron Fist powers is because, as a peak human, he was able to fight and defeat a dragon with his bare hands (Marvel Premiere vol.1 #16).
If Jobberines feat of outskilling Danny is legitimate, then Jason one shots Ironfist.
The Red Hood wank is truly bad when people genuinely think Jason would not just beat Iron Fist, but one-shot him. Absolutely ridiculous.
Dude you're the one thats absolutely ridiculous if you can't take an obvious joke.
Ontopic: I've already stated in another thread that Ironfist would beat Jason regardless of venom/all-blades, etc. Ironfist is basically a god for a street leveler. And most top tier peak humans don't stand a chance against him.
Off topic: You really overrate the Marvel characters with healing factors.
Beating Deadpool isn't that impressive, he has more low showings then high. Currently he gets put down by single vital gunshots, reacts slower then old man Steve Rogers, and gets dropped with low amounts of electricity.
Beating Sabretooth isn't impressive at all. Wolverine has oneshotted the dude. Silver Sable (who is rather low level, probably Huntress/Batgirl level) has beaten him without even laying a finger on him.
Beating Wolverine ranges from impressive to not even being quantifiable. Cause he jobs and loses skill over time. So many peakhuman street levelers have fought and survived against Logan. He's not quite the badass fanboys want you to believe.
Dude you're the one thats absolutely ridiculous if you can't take an obvious joke.
Ontopic: I've already stated in another thread that Ironfist would beat Jason regardless of venom/all-blades, etc. Ironfist is basically a god for a street leveler. And most top tier peak humans don't stand a chance against him.
Off topic: You really overrate the Marvel characters with healing factors.
Well I can't tell it was a joke considering you high ball Jason a lot. It wasn't obvious at all. I've seen many unironic comments from you regarding Red Hood that are on a similar level. Forgive me if I'm not in every single thread you're in. I don't know why you expected me to know what you said in another thread.
I don't overrated characters with healing factors, they simply have a very impressive set of advantages. They have almost no issues with fatigue, can recover from most injuries other street-levelers can dish out, and also usually have low-level enhancements because of their healing factors.
Beating Deadpool isn't that impressive, he has more low showings then high. Currently he gets put down by single vital gunshots, reacts slower then old man Steve Rogers, and gets dropped with low amounts of electricity.
Most of his low showings are when he is not taking a fight seriously or written under Daniel Way or other writers who don't know how to write him properly and misinterpret him as someone who takes everything as a joke, when that's not Wade at all. And I'd still disagree with him having more low showings than high. I've posted many feats that span across multiple writers and story arcs (Joe Kelly, Duggan, Fabian Nicieza, etc.) throughout the years with some feats from a mere week before to a decade old. Whether it was him stalemating Killmonger enhanced who has defeated Black Panther in close quarters unamped before in the 90's or him fighting Sabretooth literally in the current run he has right now.
If Wade has been downed by a single vital gunshot, it's either a specific situation or inconsistent. I can post an entire list of times Wade has fought with vital organ damage to extreme degrees. He's had his entire stomach crushed, had an arrow in his head, an entire assault rifle clip shot into his chest, and a horn shoved through him to the point where his guts were spilling out. Yet in every single one of these instances Wade was conscious and even kept fighting while that was happening. All of these under various writers, story arcs, and years.
Beating Sabretooth isn't impressive at all. Wolverine has oneshotted the dude. Silver Sable (who is rather low level, probably Huntress/Batgirl level) has beaten him without even laying a finger on him.
Your argument that Wolverine has one-shotted Sabretooth therefore making the feat that Iron Fist fought him while freaking blind is unimpressive is flawed not only because you simply dismissed Danny's handicap during the fight, but also dismissing the context as to why the feat is so impressive. Sabretooth is more of a jobber nowadays but when that feat happened it was in Iron Fist vol.1 #14. This issue was published in 1977, and during this time period Sabretooth was in his prime. During this time he was able to tag Spider-Man, stalemate Wolverine if not outright defeat him in close-quarters encounters.
In Uncanny X-Men vol.1 #212 Sabretooth fights Wolverine in skirmish in the tunnels and gains the advantage with Logan himself admitting Creed had a speed advantage. This issue was published in 1986.
In the very next issue, Uncanny X-Men vol.1 #213, Sabretooth fights Wolverine in a brutal stalemate. They fight so fast Psylocke can barely keep track of it mentally. There's also an on-panel statement confirming that Sabretooth is faster and stronger. This issue was published in 1987.
In Wolverine vol.2 #41, even after sustaining injuries and being heavily drugged Creed is still able to close the distance and pin Logan down in a brief encounter. This issue was published in 1991.
In Wolverine vol.2 #90, Sabretooth gains the advantage in hand-to-hand at first and then the two engage in brutal combat with Logan barely edging a victory. This issue was published in 1995.
The latter two issues are towards the 90's but Iron Fist has also encountered and fought Iron Fist during that time period too, and more.
In Iron Fist vol.1 #14. Danny defeats Sabretooth while blinded. This issue was published in 1977.
In Power Man and Iron Fist vol.1 #66 he gains the advantage over Creed without chi. This issue was published in 1980.
In Marvel Comics Presents vol.1 #136 Iron Fist fights and eventually defeats Sabretooth in a hard-pressed battle. This issue was published in 1993.
So no, your simplification and lowball of Sabretooth doesn't fit at all given the context and time period. Sabretooth has only become more of a jobber recently because writers mishandled him and that was in more modern times as opposed to Classic Sabretooth. Not only that, but IIRC, they retconned his low showings to being clones of Creed, so that argument doesn't hold up either way. There's no way someone that has enhanced senses, strength, sharp claws able to injure Logan himself, enhanced strength and speed arguably greater than Wolverine, and a healing factor on par if not greater than Logan's.
And tell me one instance where a lower level street leveler like Silver Sable can take out Deadpool without specific context and a situation favoring her without it being a low showing for someone formidable as Deadpool. Silver Sable is impressive in that feat merely because she compliments Daredevil who is already a formidable opponent for Deadpool, and yet Wade had to fight both of them simultaneously.
Beating Wolverine ranges from impressive to not even being quantifiable. Cause he jobs and loses skill over time. So many peakhuman street levelers have fought and survived against Logan. He's not quite the badass fanboys want you to believe.
Yes many peak humans have survived against Logan, but it's usually either because he isn't trying to kill them or they have to have the character survive because they're popular or an established villain. Wolverine doesn't use skill as often against fodder, that is true, but almost every time he's fought against a top-tier Marvel combatant he's demonstrated why he's so dangerous. He's defeated Captain America in close quarters, beaten Iron Fist in a short sparring session, gotten the upper hand on Wade, shown explicit knowledge of pressure point techniques, been commented on by other martial arts masters in the Marvel Universe, numerous handbook entries confirming his skill via description and ranking, and more. You can say what you want, but his showings show otherwise.
Your opinion would be wrong. Black Panther and You cannot equate Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain's Pre-Flashpoint feats and level of martial arts skill to their relatively to even drastically in Lady Shiva's instance, different new incarnations. You can't just say he's beaten them "somehow". That's ignoring a lot of important context not only with their versions but also the situation revolving around these feats. are all combatants that are at the minimum equal to Batman in terms of martial arts skill. Daredevil and Deadpool are also in Bruce's league as well, with Wade being equal to Bruce if not being slightly below him.
Iron Fist used Chi-infused punches and Chi generally boosted his physicality to superhuman levels, therefore that fight doesn't fall under the category of "good martial arts showings" of Danny. Regarding Wolverine's, he stalemated him, who by your own words is Batman's equal in skills, whom Batman has beaten. There's no denial that Jason is in his league.
Jason's showings against Lady Shiva and Cassandra are both New 52, in which their incarnations are not nearly as impressive as their Pre-Flashpoint feats, which you seem to be implying. I've already explained this before in a previous argument we've had regarding Red Hood's showing against these characters, so I'll post it again:
Lady Shiva in terms of pure martial arts knowledge Pre-Flashpoint is usually Batman level if not above. IIRC, Batman was watching Connor Hawke and Lady Shiva fight in hand-to-hand combat and remarked that he had had lasted longer than even Bruce could against her, indicating that Shiva was for the most part Bruce's superior in the martial arts department. And then we have the showing inBatman vol.1 #427 where he was stalemating her. This completely outclasses anything New 52 Shiva is capable of to such a large degree it isn't even funny. It's almost common knowledge that New 52 Shiva pales in comparison to Pre-Flashpoint and that she's pretty much just a jobber at this point.
Worse or not, Shiva is still very skilled. I don't think Iron Fist would have beaten her so easily with a pressure point. The showing is corroborative of Jason's advanced hand-to-hand combat even against very skilled fighters.
Cassandra Cain in the New 52 as far as I'm aware isn't as impressive as her Pre-Flashpoint version either, and like you said it was a short fight where Cassandra was, according to even Dick Grayson's own words, trying to protect him.
She was trying to protect them but when Dick was trying to talk, she tossed him away, punched and even drew blood from him, so it stands to reason that she fought seriously.
Jason beat her in the same arc where she defeated extremely skilled fighters like (an injured) Grayson, Orphan twice (who gave Batman and Grayson a hell of a fight) and Mother, in addition to that she was able to one-shot Robots and Metahumans. It was a short fight but Jason had her twice at gun point after pinning her to the ground.
In a nutshell, there're incontrovertible on-panel visual facts that indicate Cassandra hangs with the best martial artists of new 52 Universe. Jason was the only one ahead of the pack in that story arc and he wasn't even having difficulty with her.
You cannot equate Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain's Pre-Flashpoint feats and level of martial arts skill to their relatively to even drastically in Lady Shiva's instance, different new incarnations. You can't just say he's beaten them "somehow". That's ignoring a lot of important context not only with their versions but also the situation revolving around these feats.
What makes you rush to the conclusion that Cassandra isn't nearly as skilled as pre 52 AT LEAST? Regarding Shiva she has beaten an injured Nightwing (As skilled as Deadpool, Daredevil), had the upperhand against a very skilled female Talon and easily took down the Secret Six, she is also still a formidable martial artist and Red Hood beat her easily, something that I highly doubt guys like Iron Fist (without Chi), Daredevil, Black Panther could replicate. Which fight has Shiva lost so to be considered drastically less skilled than pre 52 U sans Jason's?
Yet you can say the exact same thing for Red Hood. The fact is, the level of street levelers as well as their own impressive speed feats that Iron Fist fights against, as well as other bullet-timing and impressive speed feats generally reinforce the fact that Danny is in fact faster. Why? Because Jason Todd also gets tagged by other street levelers (who are less impressive than the ones Danny fights against mind you),and he cannot replicate the feat of catching a bullet that Iron Fist did with utmost ease.
I think you mention fights where he uses Chi energy. I implied before that Iron Fist is not superior to Jason WITHOUT HIS CHI. It would be nice if you only posted scans of Danny without Chi. He isn't as fast as that when he doesn't channel his chi.
When characters have feats of dodging or in this case catching high-caliber sniper rounds, it generally means that they have superior reaction time than their opponent if they can't replicate the same feat. Red Hood has been tagged by Batman, Nightwing, Damian Wayne, and other street-levelers too. Meanwhile Danny has not only fought against more impressive combatants (save for Bruce who's on their caliber, but even Batman mopped the floor with Jason) but he also has feats like dodging in the micro-second range.
He has been tagged, after all Bats is no slouch in the speed department and Dick is one of the fastest in his realm. It's ok, because he never caught bullets, but he's blitzed through shooters (after they were holding their guns) and then he slashes them with his swords. But when it comes to Iron Fist the difference is huge between him getting tagged by Wolverine or Black Panther while on another occasion catching bullets. You see that his reaction speed (to projectiles) doesn't coincide with his combat speed (speed during h2h).
He's peak human without chi, but I don't see how that question is even relevant when OP has no rules against Danny using his chi whatsoever. Let's not forget that the whole reason Danny even has the Iron Fist powers is because, as a peak human, he was able to fight and defeat a dragon with his bare hands (Marvel Premiere vol.1 #16).
I don't see the purpose of debating for an uphill battle under a circumstance, where chi is allowed. In my first post I already implied that Jason is on his level WITHOUT CHI.
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