Iron fist (no chi) vs Cassandra Cain

my fanboy side says Cassie...
 
...and i think i'll stick to that.

I'm going to switch it up and say Iron Fist can win.

Iron Fist will break her bones.  Cassandra is a small 110 lb girl no?  Let's be reasonable here...I'm not trying to be sexist.

Okay I change my vote to Cassandra Cain. She's fought tougher and stronger people then Iron Fist and never had her bones broken. If Deathstroke cant break her bones why would Iron Fist be able to?

" I'm going to switch it up and say Iron Fist can win. "

he could win... but the chances of it seem sort of slim to me... under these conditions at least

@Klandicar said:

" Iron Fist will break her bones.  Cassandra is a small 110 lb girl no?  Let's be reasonable here...I'm not trying to be sexist. "

" @Gambler said:

" I'm going to switch it up and say Iron Fist can win. "

he could win... but the chances of it seem sort of slim to me... under these conditions at least

@Klandicar said:

" Iron Fist will break her bones.  Cassandra is a small 110 lb girl no?  Let's be reasonable here...I'm not trying to be sexist. "

yeah... and this 110 pound girl has put Superboy on his ass... as well as kicked ass on Metahumans... dont sleep on Cassie... she is a beast no matter how thin she may appear
"

I agree with the people everyone else should agree with. Which is not @Klandicar: 
 
See how I didn't even type his name out?...yeah.

Iron Fist wins

" I agree with the people everyone else should agree with. Which is not @Klandicar:   See how I didn't even type his name out?...yeah. "

" Iron Fist wins "

" @King Saturn said:

" @Gambler said:

" I'm going to switch it up and say Iron Fist can win. "

he could win... but the chances of it seem sort of slim to me... under these conditions at least

@Klandicar said:

" Iron Fist will break her bones.  Cassandra is a small 110 lb girl no?  Let's be reasonable here...I'm not trying to be sexist. "

yeah... and this 110 pound girl has put Superboy on his ass... as well as kicked ass on Metahumans... dont sleep on Cassie... she is a beast no matter how thin she may appear
"

Alright guys, I'll admit I was a little skeptical but I'd like to change my vote to Cassandra Cain.  I didn't realize Iron Fist could not use his Chi....maybe without the Chi he won't be breaking her bones after all...I apologize for demeaning her accomplishments. "

" if Iron Fist doesnt have his Chi... Cassandra will beat his ass senseless... "

Cassandra Cain gets my vote

Cassandra Cain beats him

No offense but fights like these make no sense to me. Why put IF in a fight like this and take away his abilities that makes this a lopsided fight in Cassie favor.

Cass can win this I think.

Iron Fist wins.

Even nerfed, Iron Fist wins. He is faster and more skilled. He beat Shou-Lao the Undying BEFORE getting any fancy Iron Fist powers.

Iron Fist wins, more experienced, physically superior as well.

Cassie is very skilled, however Iron Fist IMO is superior

@Klandicar said:

Iron Fist will break her bones. Cassandra is a small 110 lb girl no? Let's be reasonable here...I'm not trying to be sexist.

Iron Fist. Top 175 pound martial artist with more reach beats top 110 pound martial artist.

Iron Fist STILL has alot of feats WITHOUT using his Chi.

Cain is strong but I think alot of you guys are selling him short.

@Cochise said:

Even nerfed, Iron Fist wins. He is faster and more skilled. He beat Shou-Lao the Undying BEFORE getting any fancy Iron Fist powers.

Literally everyone who has ever been an Iron Fist has beaten Shou-Lao the Undying. So all of them can beat Cassandra without their chi powers? Really?

@CitizenBane said:

@Cochise said:

Even nerfed, Iron Fist wins. He is faster and more skilled. He beat Shou-Lao the Undying BEFORE getting any fancy Iron Fist powers.

Literally everyone who has ever been an Iron Fist has beaten Shou-Lao the Undying. So all of them can beat Cassandra without their chi powers? Really?

That is the DEFINITION of a straw man argument. I'm discussing Daniel Rand, not some anonymous predecessors. I'm showing that even without using chi or the Iron Fist technique, at the young age of nineteen, he was able to defeat a giant immortal dragon using H2H skill. He's more skilled than Cassandra, period.

@Cochise said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Cochise said:

Even nerfed, Iron Fist wins. He is faster and more skilled. He beat Shou-Lao the Undying BEFORE getting any fancy Iron Fist powers.

Literally everyone who has ever been an Iron Fist has beaten Shou-Lao the Undying. So all of them can beat Cassandra without their chi powers? Really?

That is the DEFINITION of a straw man argument. I'm discussing Daniel Rand, not some anonymous predecessors. I'm showing that even without using chi or the Iron Fist technique, at the young age of nineteen, he was able to defeat a giant immortal dragon using H2H skill. He's more skilled than Cassandra, period.

Except that ALL of those anonymous predecessors have defeated a giant immortal dragon using H2H skill. ALL OF THEM. Shou-Lao's sole function is to lie around and wait until someone shows up, beats him and then becomes the next Iron Fist. The feat is worthless because Shou-Lao's sole purpose is to lose against the next Iron Fist. And it's not like characters who were not giant immortal dragons or anywhere near it have ever beaten Danny, right?

Iron Fist STILL has alot of feats WITHOUT using his Chi.

@CitizenBane said:

Except that ALL of those anonymous predecessors have defeated a giant immortal dragon using H2H skill. ALL OF THEM. Shou-Lao's sole function is to lie around and wait until someone shows up, beats him and then becomes the next Iron Fist. The feat is worthless because Shou-Lao's sole purpose is to lose against the next Iron Fist. And it's not like characters who were not giant immortal dragons or anywhere near it have ever beaten Danny, right?

Except we're not discussing anonymous predecessors. People were asking for chi-less feats from Danny and I provided one that happens to be beyond what Cassandra is capable of in terms of skill. Admitting she isn't as skilled as he is doesn't mean she's a bad fighter. It just means there are better.

@Cochise said:

@CitizenBane said:

Except that ALL of those anonymous predecessors have defeated a giant immortal dragon using H2H skill. ALL OF THEM. Shou-Lao's sole function is to lie around and wait until someone shows up, beats him and then becomes the next Iron Fist. The feat is worthless because Shou-Lao's sole purpose is to lose against the next Iron Fist. And it's not like characters who were not giant immortal dragons or anywhere near it have ever beaten Danny, right?

Except we're not discussing anonymous predecessors. People were asking for chi-less feats from Danny and I provided one that happens to be beyond what Cassandra is capable of in terms of skill. Admitting she isn't as skilled as he is doesn't mean she's a bad fighter. It just means there are better.

Afraid we are. You're saying that defeating a giant immortal dragon with just H2H skill is what makes Danny more skilled than Cass. That is literally the only chi-less Danny feat you have provided. By that logic, anyone who has replicated the same feat is better than Cassandra. It's not so much a straw man argument as a logical extrapolation of the only bit of reasoning you have provided. Accordingly, does Danny beat every opponent who is not a giant immortal dragon without needing to use his chi? Danny vs Spider-Man? Danny wins because he beat a giant immortal dragon. Danny vs Batman? Danny wins because he beat a giant immortal dragon. Danny vs Daredevil? Danny wins because he beat a giant immortal dragon (Oh wait, Danny actually fought Daredevil without his chi and didn't win....funny, I'd have thought a giant immortal dragon would fare better than a blind lawyer). I feel like laughing at that last bit about admitting things.....this from the guy who patrols every Cassandra Cain/Lady Shiva/David Cain thread and harangues everyone in sight about how they can't beat anyone? Yeah but no.

Shou-Lao and the defeat of Shou-Lao are plot devices in the Iron Fist mythos. He exists almost solely to lose to people. If you're saying Danny wins and the only reason you can come up with for Danny winning is this one feat, it logically means that anyone who has performed this one feat would beat Cass without chi. It is that simple. Seriously, just find another feat. It's better than having to resort to worthless ones.

Iron Fist loses.

@CitizenBane said:

Shou-Lao and the defeat of Shou-Lao are plot devices in the Iron Fist mythos. He exists almost solely to lose to people. If you're saying Danny wins and the only reason you can come up with for Danny winning is this one feat, it logically means that anyone who has performed this one feat would beat Cass without chi. It is that simple. Seriously, just find another feat. It's better than having to resort to worthless ones.

No, Shou-Lao exists to kill the people who challenge him, people who are considered phenomenal martial artists from a city that worships the martial arts. And even then, only the best of the best of the best of K'un L'un can defeat him. So it isn't a worthless feat, just one you don't like. And why would Danny need his chi for this fight? He doesn't need the Iron Fist strike, he's not fighting someone with superhuman durability or a healing factor. He's not fighting someone like Mister X, who can read his mind. His skill and knowledge doesn't require chi.

And if you feel I'm haranguing you, why reply to my posts?

@Cochise said:

@CitizenBane said:

Shou-Lao and the defeat of Shou-Lao are plot devices in the Iron Fist mythos. He exists almost solely to lose to people. If you're saying Danny wins and the only reason you can come up with for Danny winning is this one feat, it logically means that anyone who has performed this one feat would beat Cass without chi. It is that simple. Seriously, just find another feat. It's better than having to resort to worthless ones.

No, Shou-Lao exists to kill the people who challenge him, people who are considered phenomenal martial artists from a city that worships the martial arts. And even then, only the best of the best of the best of K'un L'un can defeat him. So it isn't a worthless feat, just one you don't like. And why would Danny need his chi for this fight? He doesn't need the Iron Fist strike, he's not fighting someone with superhuman durability or a healing factor. He's not fighting someone like Mister X, who can read his mind. His skill and knowledge doesn't require chi.

And if you feel I'm haranguing you, why reply to my posts?

It's worthless because there are countless people who have all defeated Shou-Lao (and he doesn't kill all the people who challenge him, if I recall correctly he left his fight with Davos when it became apparent that Davos was too frightened to fight) and therefore all of these phenomenal martial artists can trounce Cassandra Cain since they have all performed this feat. It is a bit hard to believe that anyone who has ever held the Iron Fist title could beat Cain without chi, non? Not to mention that this is just ignoring all of Danny's feats after that. He has lost to many, many people who were weaker than Shou-Lao. From the first five issues of his first volume alone, he fought Merrin and several fodder thugs without chi and lost, he fought Ravager with chi and lost. With chi and bloodlusted, he lost to Black Panther. He lost to Wolverine recently as well, in a sparring match that they both decided to take seriously (albeit with no claws and no fist, just pure H2H ability). Why are they all capable of doing what Shou-Lao failed to do? Because beating Shou-Lao isn't a feat. It's a formality.

Danny's chi does not only apply to the fist. It also enhances his speed and durability, many of his best speed feats (like catching bullets after they're fired, pounding classic Iron Man so fast he couldn't react, blah blah) are all done with chi. His stats are different without the chi.

Curiosity.

@CitizenBane said:

It's worthless because there are countless people who have all defeated Shou-Lao (and he doesn't kill all the people who challenge him, if I recall correctly he left his fight with Davos when it became apparent that Davos was too frightened to fight) and therefore all of these phenomenal martial artists can trounce Cassandra Cain since they have all performed this feat.

No not countless people. Actually very few. It's a feat of rare distinction, it's not something that is routinely done by the average citizen of K'un L'un. You are deliberately selling the feat short.

Could Cassandra defeat Shou-Lou with her bare hands? Yes or no?

(And the fact that the dragon spared Davos doesn't change anything, now, does it?)

I can't comment on whether or not Danny's predecessors could beat Cassandra seeing as how the vast majority of them have no actual appearances. But based on the abilities of the other Immortal Weapons, and the fact that Danny's predecessors were able to defeat Shao-Lou barehanded, I'd say odds are good they are more skilled than Cassandra, since it's a feat I can't see her accomplishing without gear. Barring them having any superpowers of course. Compare that to, say, Mantis, who has pressure pointed Thor. With Mantis, I wouldn't say that one of Danny's predecessors is more skilled based just on that one feat, since it's something Mantis could likely replicate.

@CitizenBane said:

He has lost to many, many people who were weaker than Shou-Lao. From the first five issues of his first volume alone, he fought Merrin and several fodder thugs without chi and lost, he fought Ravager with chi and lost. With chi and bloodlusted, he lost to Black Panther. He lost to Wolverine recently as well, in a sparring match that they both decided to take seriously (albeit with no claws and no fist, just pure H2H ability). Why are they all capable of doing what Shou-Lao failed to do?

So are we using low-end feats now? Like when Cassandra got taken to school by the Joker? Or got stalemated by Tim Drake? Come on, EVERY hero has lost to people they shouldn't. How many times has Batman gone down to a couple of nameless thugs for the point of the story? And losing to BP is nothing to be ashamed of, especially since the time I am thinking of, Danny was BRAINWASHED and fighting like an enraged brute, and Panther had full gear, and at the end of the fight Panther had internal bleeding in his head. Let's not leave that out.

@CitizenBane said:

Why are they all capable of doing what Shou-Lao failed to do? Because beating Shou-Lao isn't a feat. It's a formality.

No a formality is, "I'm asking my girlfriend's father for her hand in marriage, but it's just a formality, we've already set the date." Formality means that the outcome is set in stone. When Danny went to fight Shou-Lao, he could have easily been killed, just like most challengers. But he beat the dragon by skill, which is a feat. It's like saying that Superman beating Doomsday is a formality because Superman is the hero and has to win.

@CitizenBane said:

Danny's chi does not only apply to the fist. It also enhances his speed and durability, many of his best speed feats (like catching bullets after they're fired, pounding classic Iron Man so fast he couldn't react, blah blah) are all done with chi. His stats are different without the chi.

So how do you know when Danny's using the chi to amp his speed? Because there have been plenty of times where he's dodged or caught bullets and there has been no reference to him using chi to amp his speed. Do we just assume he's doing so in order to lowball his baseline stats?

iron fist wins

@Cochise: Prove Shou-Lau's skill. Show Shou-Lau taking on any seriously skilled martial artist and beating them. Anyone. Any character that isn't some no name. Show some feats for Shou-Lau that proves he's the force you claim him to be. And I'm not talking about what people say about him. I'm talking about actual shows that put him as high as you want to make him out to be. Could Cassie beat him? From the sounds of it? Yes. Prove that she can't.

@DangerousLoki said:

@Cochise: Prove Shou-Lau's skill. Show Shou-Lau taking on any seriously skilled martial artist and beating them. Anyone. Any character that isn't some no name. Show some feats for Shou-Lau that proves he's the force you claim him to be. And I'm not talking about what people say about him. I'm talking about actual shows that put him as high as you want to make him out to be. Could Cassie beat him? From the sounds of it? Yes. Prove that she can't.

So now Davos is a no-name unskilled martial artist? Hmm...

@Cochise: So your only evidence is one guy? I'll be honest and admit I don't know much about Iron Fist and Davos but from a quick search. Davos appears to be on a level close to Daniel's own. It also implies that there's a trick to deafeating the Dragon and it's not purely a physical combat according to Davos own page. So if that's true then the feat is less impressive now.

Back to my point. It also appears that at the time Davos faced Shou-Lao, he was exactly that. An unnammed, unskilled martial artist who had already lost the right to challenge the dragon. So any feats he has after the fact is unumportant because his training could have increased.

Oh and I did just read the Iron Fist page and saw that he defeated Shou-Lao by blocking it's power with his body, (The same thing Davos tried to do and failed because of the pain) so it's not a hand to hand feat but an exploitation of the Dragon's weakness. If you count it, you might as well count Batman's knocking out Superman with a kryptonite ring as pure Hand to hand.

Eh, going with Iron Fist, because I'm biased.

@texasdeathmatch said:

Eh, going with Iron Fist, because I'm biased.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts on the subject=)

I'd just like to take a moment to wonder, do you have an actual argument beyond "ZOMG Iron Fist beat a dragon" mixed with a liberal amount of "you're lowballing everything"? Doesn't seem like it where I'm standing. Anyways,

@Cochise said:

No not countless people. Actually very few. It's a feat of rare distinction,

Danny is the sixty-sixth person to defeat Shou-Lao and become an Iron Fist. You are effectively claiming that there are sixty five other people, virtually all of whom are completely featless apart from defeating Shou-Lao, who are superior to Cassandra Cain simply by virtue of being Iron Fists.

Really? I would dearly like to say that is the most ridiculous claim I have ever seen on this site, but just yesterday I saw a guy claim Superman Prime was more powerful than the Spectre, so never mind.

On to the feat itself, which was far more lackluster than you'd care to mention, but any way, this is how Danny "beat" Shou-Lao:

Danny essentially hugged Shou-Lao to death. Is this really the feat that you think places him and every other Iron Fist above Cass in H2H ability? Really?

it's not something that is routinely done by the average citizen of K'un L'un.

.............

The average citizen of K'un-L'un isn't even in training to be an Iron Fist.....hell, the average citizen of K'un-L'un isn't even a martial artist.

You are deliberately selling the feat short.

I imagine there's going to be a lot of this here. Typical. It's the only feat you have, isn't it?

Could Cassandra defeat Shou-Lou with her bare hands? Yes or no?

Let's just assume that Danny beating Shou-Lao is as impressive as you think it is, as opposed to what it actually is, namely a feat that marks him as one of the world's most determined huggers.

Captain America was winning his fight against Danny in Iron Fist #12. Can Captain America defeat Shou-Lao with his bare hands? Nope.

Danny couldn't even hurt Wolverine when they fought in Iron Fist #15. He also lost the contest of H2H skill that they had in New Avengers #15. Can Wolverine defeat Shou-Lao with his bare clawless hands? Nope.

Daredevil stalemated Danny in Daredevil #178. Can Daredevil beat Shou-Lao with his bare hands? Nope.

Deadpool held his own against Danny in Cable & Deadpool #21, and then again in Cable & Deadpool #30. Can Deadpool beat Shou-Lao with his bare hands? Nope.

Shu-Hu had Danny beaten convincingly until the fist came into play in Marvel Premiere #15. Can Shu-Hu beat Shou-Lao with his bare hands? Nope.

Yes, Danny defeated a big-ass dragon. And yet all of these people were able to fight him with varying levels of success. None of them are capable of beating a big-ass dragon on paper. Strangely enough, that didn't seem to factor into their fights with Iron Fist.....and yet you want to insist on asking silly questions like whether Cass can beat Shou-Lao or not. Seriously, do you have anything else? Really, there are MUCH better non-chi Danny feats.

And that's just the Marvel characters. Batman cannot beat Shou-Lao with his bare hands. Richard Dragon (assume he doesn't have all those problems with canonicity) cannot beat Shou-Lao with his bare hands. Nor can Prometheus, or Constantine Drakon, or Sensei, or Deathstroke, or whoever else. None of them can beat a big-ass dragon with their bare hands, Danny already has. I take it this means he is superior to all of them in sheer H2H ability?

(And the fact that the dragon spared Davos doesn't change anything, now, does it?)

It does as far as the "Shou-Lao lives to kill all challengers" idea goes. How many people have you seen him kill?

I can't comment on whether or not Danny's predecessors could beat Cassandra seeing as how the vast majority of them have no actual appearances.

Halleh-friggin'-lujah.

But based on the abilities of the other Immortal Weapons

What? Apart from Steel Serpent (who was the Immortal Weapon of K'un-Z'i at the time, but he was trained in K'un-L'un), none of them are from K'un-L'un, none of them have fought Shou-Lao, and they themselves have exceedingly few non-chi feats. How do they factor into your speculation about completely featless characters?

and the fact that Danny's predecessors were able to defeat Shao-Lou barehanded, I'd say odds are good they are more skilled than Cassandra, since it's a feat I can't see her accomplishing without gear. Barring them having any superpowers of course.

Funnily enough, I can't see why Cassie would have any problems hugging Shou-Lao until he died. Didn't seem particularly impossible when Danny did it, and it didn't require any skill, just the sheer determination to take the heat.

So are we using low-end feats now?

Really, low end? You don't seem to realize that Danny simply does not have that many non-chi feats. Merrin might have been a low-end feat (still questionable though; they have been fodder but Danny was swamped with them) but how is losing to Ravager low-end when the dude was physically out of Danny's league to begin with (but still not on the level of this seemingly almighty giant immortal dragon that you keep raving about)? How is losing to Wolverine low-end when Logan is one of the best martial artists in the Marvel universe?

Like when Cassandra got taken to school by the Joker?

See, this right here is low-end.

Or got stalemated by Tim Drake?

Eh, Cassie already proved she was superior to Tim by punking Shrike right after he nearly murdered Tim.

And losing to BP is nothing to be ashamed of

Never said it was. BP is a top-notch fighter. Question is, can T'Challa beat Shou-Lao with his bare hands?

especially since the time I am thinking of, Danny was BRAINWASHED

He was hypnotized by Chiantang into believing that he was in Chiantang's debt and that Black Panther should be killed. There is no indication that his fighting skills were affected.

and fighting like an enraged brute

Really? "Enraged brute" kinda implies he was just lashing out with no skill or style or technique whatsoever. In that fight he was parrying T'Challa's blows, battering his body with repeated blows, things he actually does while in his right mind as well. To what degree are you supposing that his skills were affected?

and Panther had full gear, and at the end of the fight Panther had internal bleeding in his head. Let's not leave that out.

Because the gear elevates T'Challa to a level beyond Shou-Lao's supposed level? T'Challa sustained an aneurysm, sure, but Shou-Lao was dead. Death > aneurysm. So why exactly is it that T'Challa fared better than a giant immortal dragon?

So how do you know when Danny's using the chi to amp his speed? Because there have been plenty of times where he's dodged or caught bullets and there has been no reference to him using chi to amp his speed. Do we just assume he's doing so in order to lowball his baseline stats?

Because that is how his powers work? His body is filled with chi that constantly empowers him. That is how he uses the iron fist strike, he diverts the flow of chi from the rest of his body down into his fist. The chi empowering him is the reason he was physically weakened every time Steel Serpent drained his chi, it's why he got super-amped up when Orson gave him all his chi to fight Davos, and he's always connected to his chi (which is why he felt pain when Orson was tapping into the chi of Shou-Lao, despite there being no indication or reference to Danny himself using his chi at the time). He has very few completely non-chi feats. But of course, I'm lowballing everything.....

No a formality is, "I'm asking my girlfriend's father for her hand in marriage, but it's just a formality, we've already set the date." Formality means that the outcome is set in stone. When Danny went to fight Shou-Lao, he could have easily been killed, just like most challengers. But he beat the dragon by skill, which is a feat.

Haha. Hugging really hard. Haha.

It's like saying that Superman beating Doomsday is a formality because Superman is the hero and has to win.

Hate to nitpick, but Superman has lost the majority of his fights with Doomsday.

Um, Shou-Lao hardly beat Davos because of how skilled or powerful he is. He beat Davos because Davos completely lost his sh!t at the very sight of Shou-Lao, and he spent most of the fight just running away. Shou-Lao just got fed up of his cowardice and left. And Davos was MUCH less skilled when he fought Shou-Lao. He'd already lost the right to even face Shou-Lao after getting stomped badly by Wendell Rand.

Iron Fist has better chi-less feats than killing a dragon via the power of hugs. Seriously.......

@King Saturn said:

if Iron Fist doesnt have his Chi... Cassandra will beat his ass senseless...

Absolutely this.

@tjizz350 said:

No offense but fights like these make no sense to me. Why put IF in a fight like this and take away his abilities that makes this a lopsided fight in Cassie favor.

Exactly what I was thinking

@Nihonzaki said:

@tjizz350 said:

No offense but fights like these make no sense to me. Why put IF in a fight like this and take away his abilities that makes this a lopsided fight in Cassie favor.

Exactly what I was thinking

Me too, strangely enough...

@CitizenBane said:

Because that is how his powers work? His body is filled with chi that constantly empowers him. That is how he uses the iron fist strike, he diverts the flow of chi from the rest of his body down into his fist. The chi empowering him is the reason he was physically weakened every time Steel Serpent drained his chi, it's why he got super-amped up when Orson gave him all his chi to fight Davos, and he's always connected to his chi (which is why he felt pain when Orson was tapping into the chi of Shou-Lao, despite there being no indication or reference to Danny himself using his chi at the time). He has very few completely non-chi feats. But of course, I'm lowballing everything.....

In the comics it's noted when Danny is accessing his Iron Fist powers to do something special, like amp his punches, heal himself, etc. - which is how I interpreted the OP. But you are saying that he's ALWAYS using them - to fight mooks, to dodge attacks, to shave, to make breakfast... So, every time Danny appears in a comic you are attributing all of his physical attributes to "chi", even when unstated, what is the point of this thread? What's Danny like without "chi"? An average American adult male? Olympic athlete level? Weekend warrior level?

How is Danny's SKILL dependent on chi? his knowledge of how to connect his fist with someone's face?

Who do you think is the weakest person that can beat chi-less Danny? Dick Grayson? Tim Drake? Stephanie Brown? Pre-Venom Flash Gordon? I'd really like to know.

handicapped iron fist still probably has a chance but it be a good fight.

Cassandra Cain beat Deathstroke but he isn't as skilled as Danny is doesn't matter if he's stronger. Cassandra Cain and Danny of Top tier fighters thier H2H skill is basically at Max wheter Danny has is chi or not. Danny doesn't use his Chi continually during his street level fights, he normally use's Chi to Knock opponent out or something. This being said Danny's blows are gonna pack a lot more Whallop than Cassandra's and see her using more stealth and agility trying to take Danny down...WHich i don't think she can do.....Is Batgirl better than Batman or something?? You would have thought Iron Fist isn't the best H2H in Marvel

Cassie got dis

@Cochise said:

@Nihonzaki said:

@tjizz350 said:

No offense but fights like these make no sense to me. Why put IF in a fight like this and take away his abilities that makes this a lopsided fight in Cassie favor.

Exactly what I was thinking

Me too, strangely enough...

@CitizenBane said:

Because that is how his powers work? His body is filled with chi that constantly empowers him. That is how he uses the iron fist strike, he diverts the flow of chi from the rest of his body down into his fist. The chi empowering him is the reason he was physically weakened every time Steel Serpent drained his chi, it's why he got super-amped up when Orson gave him all his chi to fight Davos, and he's always connected to his chi (which is why he felt pain when Orson was tapping into the chi of Shou-Lao, despite there being no indication or reference to Danny himself using his chi at the time). He has very few completely non-chi feats. But of course, I'm lowballing everything.....

In the comics it's noted when Danny is accessing his Iron Fist powers to do something special, like amp his punches, heal himself, etc. - which is how I interpreted the OP. But you are saying that he's ALWAYS using them - to fight mooks, to dodge attacks, to shave, to make breakfast... So, every time Danny appears in a comic you are attributing all of his physical attributes to "chi", even when unstated, what is the point of this thread? What's Danny like without "chi"? An average American adult male? Olympic athlete level? Weekend warrior level?

How is Danny's SKILL dependent on chi? his knowledge of how to connect his fist with someone's face?

Who do you think is the weakest person that can beat chi-less Danny? Dick Grayson? Tim Drake? Stephanie Brown? Pre-Venom Flash Gordon? I'd really like to know.

im glad to see others agreed with me on this. it really makes this a pointless fight because cassie has a clear advantage. would you want to put cassie in a fight and say she can't use her ability to predict her opponent.

@tjizz350 said:

@Cochise said:

@Nihonzaki said:

@tjizz350 said:

No offense but fights like these make no sense to me. Why put IF in a fight like this and take away his abilities that makes this a lopsided fight in Cassie favor.

Exactly what I was thinking

Me too, strangely enough...

@CitizenBane said:

Because that is how his powers work? His body is filled with chi that constantly empowers him. That is how he uses the iron fist strike, he diverts the flow of chi from the rest of his body down into his fist. The chi empowering him is the reason he was physically weakened every time Steel Serpent drained his chi, it's why he got super-amped up when Orson gave him all his chi to fight Davos, and he's always connected to his chi (which is why he felt pain when Orson was tapping into the chi of Shou-Lao, despite there being no indication or reference to Danny himself using his chi at the time). He has very few completely non-chi feats. But of course, I'm lowballing everything.....

In the comics it's noted when Danny is accessing his Iron Fist powers to do something special, like amp his punches, heal himself, etc. - which is how I interpreted the OP. But you are saying that he's ALWAYS using them - to fight mooks, to dodge attacks, to shave, to make breakfast... So, every time Danny appears in a comic you are attributing all of his physical attributes to "chi", even when unstated, what is the point of this thread? What's Danny like without "chi"? An average American adult male? Olympic athlete level? Weekend warrior level?

How is Danny's SKILL dependent on chi? his knowledge of how to connect his fist with someone's face?

Who do you think is the weakest person that can beat chi-less Danny? Dick Grayson? Tim Drake? Stephanie Brown? Pre-Venom Flash Gordon? I'd really like to know.

im glad to see others agreed with me on this. it really makes this a pointless fight because cassie has a clear advantage. would you want to put cassie in a fight and say she can't use her ability to predict her opponent.

Well it's hard not to agree with logic, taking away Iron Fist's Chi isn't fair because without it, he's just a martial artist. Cassie, on the other hand can still use her prediction ability, which makes this fight extremely one-sided. The OP should of at least taken away her ability as well, so it could actually be a fair fight. Either that or let Iron Fist use his abilities.