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#1 Posted by Amendment50 (14730 posts) - - Show Bio
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Iron Fist and Shang Chi (616)

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Batman, Richard Dragon, Shiva, Cassandra Cain (pre-Flashpoint)

Unarmed; pure H2H in plain clothes (Danny and Shang can still manipulate chi)

Victory by incap, KO, surrender or death

Round 1:

In-character

Fight in an open arena

Full knowledge on opponents

Perfect teamwork for both teams

Round 2:

Morals off

Fight in the Batcave (equipment is still off-limits; fight is still limited to H2H)

DC team gets a five-minute strategy session beforehand

Marvel team has basic knowledge on opponents' skillsets, DC team gets full knowledge

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#2 Posted by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Dixon's Dragon series actually canon? I've heard some later material contradicts it.

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#4 Posted by Amendment50 (14730 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: Damn it someone always has to post before I get my callouts up :P

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#5 Posted by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by jashro44 (50775 posts) - - Show Bio

Team batman IMO. Danny has a lot of destructive power but I don't think Danny is really trained to abuse it. Maybe I need to read more iron fist but I've never really seen Danny punch the ground in the middle of a fight. Plus he might not to that since it would take out shang-chi. While Danny is capable of one shotting anyone on team DC I don't think he will get the chance. Anyone one fighter is capable of stalling Shang-chi, which leaves Danny open to be triple teamed.

Maybe the morals off round Danny can win since he's used his chi to melt swords. Kind of depends how Danny decides to use his chi.

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#7 Edited by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

Assuming Dixon's run is canon, I'll back team 2 in round 1. Both are good, but I don't see them being able to take out people that close to their skill level. The gap isn't that big, even though both Danny and Shang are arguably more skilled.

Round 2, depends on chi usage, tbh, although restricting the Fist really improves team 2's odds to the point where I feel comfortable backing team batman again

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#8 Posted by Amendment50 (14730 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: The Fist isn't restricted in either round.

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#9 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: You think Danny and Shang are more skilled than Post-Crisis Bruce?

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#10 Posted by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94: You could argue it. I've seen enough from Danny and Bruce to argue Danny being slightly more skilled. Although a pure h2h fight would be a tough fight for sure. Don't really know enough about Shang in terms of standalone feats, but he's always supposed to be right up there with Danny, and his handbook has him at a 7. The only actual thing I've read of Shang are his appearances in Danny's last run (or ongoing, haven't kept up) which he fought Danny pretty well, and Avengers world, where he took on Gorgon and lost.

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#13 Edited by Jacthripper (14322 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Danny could potentially solo round 2 with Bloodlust, but he and Shang lose round 1 heavily.

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#14 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5520 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Danny could potentially solo round 2 with Bloodlust, but he and Shang lose round 1 heavily.

Basically this, but I disagree with him soloing. He could take and beat 3 of them if Shang could beat the 4th for round 2, though.

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#15 Posted by Jacthripper (14322 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper said:

I'd say Danny could potentially solo round 2 with Bloodlust, but he and Shang lose round 1 heavily.

Basically this, but I disagree with him soloing. He could take and beat 3 of them if Shang could beat the 4th for round 2, though.

Fair enough, hence why I said potentially. I wouldn't say he does it realistically, but if he just drops that Train-busting hit from the get go...

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#16 Posted by Amendment50 (14730 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5520 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: @cdiddyman911: Do you think knowledge/environment makes a difference R2?

I didn't actually process that was in the Batcave lol. In that case, it is a MUCH harder fight for team Danny, and with all of the shit Batman has, team Batman probably wins 7/10.

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#18 Posted by Amendment50 (14730 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: Well it's still pure H2H in the second round so use of gear is banned. The main factor for the location of the second round is for environmental knowledge. Along with the strategy session that team 2 gets.

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#19 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5520 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: It is purely Hand to Hand, but can he use his environment to his advantage in any way? I'm sure he has a lot of goodies as well as traps in there.

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#20 Posted by Amendment50 (14730 posts) - - Show Bio

@cdiddyman911: He and his team are free to use the environment for stealth and geography but they can't set traps or use Bruce's equipment.

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#21 Posted by Jacthripper (14322 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50 said:

@jacthripper: @cdiddyman911: Do you think knowledge/environment makes a difference R2?

I didn't actually process that was in the Batcave lol. In that case, it is a MUCH harder fight for team Danny, and with all of the shit Batman has, team Batman probably wins 7/10.

Definitely. I agree with cdiddy. 3/10 times Danny collapses the ceiling or stops Bruce from reaching gear.

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#22 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo- said:

@jay_z94: You could argue it. I've seen enough from Danny and Bruce to argue Danny being slightly more skilled. Although a pure h2h fight would be a tough fight for sure. Don't really know enough about Shang in terms of standalone feats, but he's always supposed to be right up there with Danny, and his handbook has him at a 7. The only actual thing I've read of Shang are his appearances in Danny's last run (or ongoing, haven't kept up) which he fought Danny pretty well, and Avengers world, where he took on Gorgon and lost.

I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest Danny is as skilled Bruce, let alone more skilled. Bruce has multiple on-panel and handbook statements saying that he has mastered all fighting styles, not just learned them.

Furthermore, he has a higher quantity and quality of skill feats compared to Danny, including against other high-tier fighters and he also knows alien techniques.

Same goes for Shang, at best he is on the same level as Danny as they stalemated in their fight.

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#23 Posted by King-Ragnar (2776 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest Danny is as skilled Bruce, let alone more skilled. Bruce has multiple on-panel and handbook statements saying that he has mastered all fighting styles, not just learned them.

Danny has already beaten people with on panel statements of Mastering all fighting styles, he's also stalemated people who have handbook statements as well.

OT : I'm pretty sure Danny would beat anyone of them individually (An Argument could be made for Shang as well), tho Team Batman is too stacked and i don't think Danny will abuse Chi Morals on. That being said, he solos round 2.

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#24 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

Danny has already beaten people with on panel statements of Mastering all fighting styles,

Can you show me? Even then, that doesn't mean he himself has mastered every fighting style, whereas Batman has, which is one of the reasons I think he's more skilled. But that doesn't mean that Bruce would beat Danny in a fight.

he's also stalemated people who have handbook statements as well.

Yeah I know he's stalemated Shang. But Batman still has better and more statements/feats under his belt.

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#25 Posted by King-Ragnar (2776 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

Can you show me? Even then, that doesn't mean he himself has mastered every fighting style, whereas Batman has, which is one of the reasons I think he's more skilled.

Mister X, In Thunderbolts (1997) #137. In case you're looking for where Mister X was stated to be a master of all fighting styles :

No Caption Provided

But that doesn't mean that Bruce would beat Danny in a fight.

Danny would beat Bruce in a fight for other reasons besides skill. Better striking power and better blunt force durability.

But Batman still has better and more statements/feats under his belt.

Actually, Shangs Handbook statement is better than Batmans ones :

No Caption Provided

Every fighting styles invented by man, including forgotten ones.

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#26 Posted by maestromage (641 posts) - - Show Bio

I've only read his short solo series, but I think Dragon is getting underlooked here. I'm pretty sure he was portrayed as > Shiva when he was actually fighting at his best (i.e. not distracted by his feelings). He also knows the leopard blow which could be quite dangerous here. That said, I don't know/remember if he has particularly impressive stats which is also very important. IDK lol.

OT: Backing team Batman. Any one of them could (probably) hold off Shang whilst the other 3 gang up on Danny. Even with his ability to one shot them all, I don't see him dealing well against 3 similarly skilled opponents. And with knowledge on their opponents, I think the would choose to group on Danny as his chi clearly makes him a bigger threat than Shang.

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#27 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

Can you show me? Even then, that doesn't mean he himself has mastered every fighting style, whereas Batman has, which is one of the reasons I think he's more skilled.

Mister X, In Thunderbolts (1997) #137. In case you're looking for where Mister X was stated to be a master of all fighting styles :

No Caption Provided

Come on man, we both know that Danny never beat Mr.X using skill. X gave Danny the winning tactic on a silver platter, after which Danny used the drunken technique so that X couldn't read his mind. That's like trying to use Wolverine's berserker victory over X as a skill feat when it clearly wasn't.

But that doesn't mean that Bruce would beat Danny in a fight.

Danny would beat Bruce in a fight for other reasons besides skill. Better striking power and better blunt force durability.

I agree, Danny should also be faster.

But Batman still has better and more statements/feats under his belt.

Actually, Shangs Handbook statement is better than Batmans ones :

No Caption Provided

Every fighting styles invented by man, including forgotten ones.

That's a good handbook statement, but Batman has better on-panel statements than both Shang and Danny:

And also has better on panel feats than Shang.

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#28 Posted by King-Ragnar (2776 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

Come on man, we both know that Danny never beat Mr.X using skill. X gave Danny the winning tactic on a silver platter, after which Danny used the drunken technique so that X couldn't read his mind.

Drunken Technique requires both skill and training.

That's a good handbook statement, but Batman has better on-panel statements than both Shang and Danny:

I'm pretty sure Danny has a better on panel statements than the ones you mentioned :

No Caption Provided

I know "Infinite" is probably hyperbolic, and it probably means several hundred, still it's a good on panel statement.

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#29 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

Come on man, we both know that Danny never beat Mr.X using skill. X gave Danny the winning tactic on a silver platter, after which Danny used the drunken technique so that X couldn't read his mind.

Drunken Technique requires both skill and training.

I'm not denying that, but you're making it sound as though Danny outskilled X when that never ever happened.

That's a good handbook statement, but Batman has better on-panel statements than both Shang and Danny:

I'm pretty sure Danny has a better on panel statements than the ones you mentioned :

No Caption Provided

I know "Infinite" is probably hyperbolic, and it probably means several hundred, still it's a good on panel statement.

Yes infinite is 100% hyperbole, come on dude.

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#30 Posted by Michaelbn (1294 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a match between Shang and Richard, all of them combined are nothing for these two together.

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#31 Posted by OriginalCaptain (4267 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny solos. Superior in every way that matters.

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#32 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny solos. Superior in every way that matters.

Danny would solo only when he's morals off and uses his Chi to the max. Otherwise he get's overwhelmed. As I've mentioned earlier, while Danny would beat Post-Crisis Bruce in a 1v1, he isn't more skilled than him.

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#33 Edited by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94: To be fair, Danny's use of drunken fist against Mr X is a testament to his skill. Drunken Fist doesn't actually work the way Danny uses it in real life, but his martial arts mastery let him counter telepathy by using it.

One could also make the argument that Danny's manipulation of his own chi to do various things to begin with is a testament to his skill as well. It does more then let him enhance his physicals

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#34 Edited by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo- said:

@jay_z94: To be fair, Danny's use of drunken fist against Mr X is a testament to his skill. Drunken Fist doesn't actually work the way Danny uses it in real life, but his martial arts mastery let him counter telepathy by using it.

Yes, it requires skill to use that technique, just like it requires specific skill to perform any other technique. However, all that technique did, was mask his true intentions from Mr.X's power. Danny in no shape or form, "out-skilled" Mr.X.

To say that he did, is like saying Wolverine "out-skilled" X when he went berserk.

One could also make the argument that Danny's manipulation of his own chi to do various things to begin with is a testament to his skill as well. It does more then let him enhance his physicals

Danny manipulates the Chi that he took from the Dragon, which I guess is impressive in itself, but it's not quantifiable enough to say that he's as skilled as Bruce just because of that.

Danny is skilled at using his own power-set, just as much as any other experienced super-powered character is at using theirs.

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#35 Edited by OriginalCaptain (4267 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

He is definitely more skilled. King Ragnar brought up very solid points and he will use chi if necessary. The outcome will always be the same, morals on or off.

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#36 Edited by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain said:

@jay_z94:

He is definitely more skilled. King Ragnar brought up very solid points

No offence, but he really didn't. Nothing he showed proved Danny is more skilled than Bruce. The fight with Mr.X is also used heavily out of context.

and he will use chi if necessary.

If he's morals off and if he decided to abuse his chi, then he can carry his team to victory.

The outcome will always be the same, morals on or off.

You have to be incredibly biased to say this. Danny has been overwhelmed solo by Logan, Elektra, Matt and stalemated Shang Chi. He cannot solo Batman, Cass, Dragon and Shiva at the same time whilst morals on. That's quite frankly absurd.

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#37 Posted by The_Hajduk (4890 posts) - - Show Bio

The more numbers on his side the more things get shifted towards a strategist like Batman. The more he can observe and examine and prepare before really putting himself in the fray, the better. I feel like if he saw that fist just one time, that would be enough and he could proceed to take out Danny with help from any partner. So even if the Fist needs to take out a Bat Team member, it's still a three on two, where anybody can stall Shang Chi, and Batman will know how to use distraction to tag Danny by surprise with a knockout punch.

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#38 Edited by OriginalCaptain (4267 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

How is getting overwhelmed by Logan relevant ? They were sparring... Also Logan would solo this team too. The Elektra feat is proving my point. The moment Danny realizes that he is in trouble, he will use his chi. He did the same against Elektra and one shotted her in the first second he decided to use chi. Also I fail to see how stalemating his friends Matt, Logan Shang Chi is a good point. Danny is not only morals on there, but also holding back. The Elektra fight is the best example.

No offence, but he really didn't. Nothing he showed proved Danny is more skilled than Bruce. The fight with Mr.X is also used heavily out of context.

Also yes he did. I am pretty sure he is aware of the context, but you fail to realize that even with context considered it is a good skill feat. And even without countering telepathy with the Drunken Fist .. Danny has already proven that he can hold his own against people superior to Mr.X that have telepathy.

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#39 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

How is getting overwhelmed by Logan relevant ? They were sparring... Also Logan would solo this team too.

It's relevant because Danny was morals on but still trying to win.

If Logan didn't have his damage soak or his claws, I believe he could take them 1v1, but he would definitely not solo this team on skill and physicals alone. Same goes for Danny.

The Elektra feat is proving my point. The moment Danny realizes that he is in trouble, he will use his chi. He did the same against Elektra and one shotted her in the first second he decided to use chi.

That's not what I'm arguing, I've already said that Danny would win if he uses his Chi like that. But the fact remains that he was struggling against Elektra in a 1v1 H2H fight. So without abusing his Chi, he isn't soloing 4 peak human top tier martial artists.

Also yes he did. I am pretty sure he is aware of the context, but you fail to realize that even with context considered it is a good skill feat.

I never said that it isn't a good skill feat. He's trying to pass it off as if Danny actually "out-skilled" Mr.X. Do you not see the problem here? Mr.X literally told Danny how to win. All he had to do was make sure that Mr.X couldn't read his mind, which is what he relies on.

I mean, look at this:

The fight starts, and X has already hit Danny once and blocked his kick. Only once X tell him what he's doing, Danny switches to drunken technique where X can't read his mind then one shots him.

King Ragnar's argument was that Danny is more skilled than Batman because he beat a guy who has mastered every form of combat. Yet before Danny countered X's telepathy, X was getting the better of Danny. Therefore: Danny never outskilled someone who has mastered every martial art.

And even without countering telepathy with the Drunken Fist .. Danny has already proven that he can hold his own against people superior to Mr.X that have telepathy.

If you're referring to Gorgon, Tomi was holding back and specifically said that he was saving himself for Logan. Not to mention that it was in that very same run that Logan bested Danny. Finally, it's not as if Gorgon was depicted as better than Mr.X in that comic anyways.

If you were referring to another fight, feel free to show me.

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#41 Edited by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

Yes, it requires skill to use that technique, just like it requires specific skill to perform any other technique. However, all that technique did, was mask his true intentions from Mr.X's power. Danny in no shape or form, "out-skilled" Mr.X.

Danny used his mastery of drunken fist to counter hax... it's like how Logan used his skill to fight soul targeting assassins during Manifest Destiny. Countering hax through sheer skill is a great show of skill.

To say that he did, is like saying Wolverine "out-skilled" X when he went berserk.

It's actually not. Logan giving into his berserker rage, or rather, falling into it takes no skill at all for Logan, as he's always trying to suppress his inner animal (might have worded that weird)

Danny manipulates the Chi that he took from the Dragon, which I guess is impressive in itself, but it's not quantifiable enough to say that he's as skilled as Bruce just because of that.

Danny also manipulates his own personal chi, much in the same way Shang Chi himself does, to increase his personal stats. Being able to do that takes a high degree of training and skill. Bruce, to my knowledge, has not replicated this technique. chi manipulation is pure skill. The chi of Shou Laou the Undying is utilized in the Iron Fist, as well as any techniques that derive from the Fist. Keep in mind that manipulating that chi in such a way is also a great showing of skill. Danny, even at some of his earliest material, could manipulate his chi to actually perform hax himself like healing and energy absorbtion, although it's not made explicitly clear if this is due to his own personal chi, or the chi of the Undying

Danny is skilled at using his own power-set, just as much as any other experienced super-powered character is at using theirs.

Agreed

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#42 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo- said:

@jay_z94:

Yes, it requires skill to use that technique, just like it requires specific skill to perform any other technique. However, all that technique did, was mask his true intentions from Mr.X's power. Danny in no shape or form, "out-skilled" Mr.X.

Danny used his mastery of drunken fist to counter hax... it's like how Logan used his skill to fight soul targeting assassins during Manifest Destiny. Countering hax through sheer skill is a great show of skill.

I'm not saying that it didn't take skill. I originally said that Batman has mastered every fighting style, which Mr.X has done as well. King-Ragnar used this fight to prove that Danny has out-skilled someone who has mastered every martial art. Do you not see the problem here? Danny never out-skilled X.

To say that he did, is like saying Wolverine "out-skilled" X when he went berserk.

It's actually not. Logan giving into his berserker rage, or rather, falling into it takes no skill at all for Logan, as he's always trying to suppress his inner animal (might have worded that weird)

I know, but that's my point. Danny and Logan, through different means, brought about a state of mind within them which allowed them to counter X's hax. The fact remains though that neither of them actually out-skilled Mr.X.

In fact, X had the upper hand in the fight before he told Danny his secret:

Danny manipulates the Chi that he took from the Dragon, which I guess is impressive in itself, but it's not quantifiable enough to say that he's as skilled as Bruce just because of that.

Danny also manipulates his own personal chi, much in the same way Shang Chi himself does, to increase his personal stats. Being able to do that takes a high degree of training and skill. Bruce, to my knowledge, has not replicated this technique. chi manipulation is pure skill. The chi of Shou Laou the Undying is utilized in the Iron Fist, as well as any techniques that derive from the Fist. Keep in mind that manipulating that chi in such a way is also a great showing of skill. Danny, even at some of his earliest material, could manipulate his chi to actually perform hax himself like healing and energy absorbtion, although it's not made explicitly clear if this is due to his own personal chi, or the chi of the Undying

Post-Crisis Batman has shown skill in pretty much every discipline, he was quite the mary sue. Without any external power-ups (obviously), Batman has:

Sensed chi:

Hypnotised people multiple times, most noticeably himself, in order to prevent Martian Manhunter from learning his contingencies. This is arguably a better feat than what Danny did against X:

Healed someone through mysticism:

https://imgur.com/a/zRB7P

Used magic:

Slowed his own blood flow and stopped it:

Controlled his own body temperature (there are scans in between, I'm just showing you the feat):

Shut down his body to accelerate healing:

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#43 Edited by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

I'm not saying that it didn't take skill. I originally said that Batman has mastered every fighting style, which Mr.X has done as well. King-Ragnar used this fight to prove that Danny has out-skilled someone who has mastered every martial art. Do you not see the problem here? Danny never out-skilled X.

Danny used his skill to counter X's telepathy (which X shows something of an overeliance on, admittingly), and then proceeded to beat him. X is skilled very skill, as you know. Mr X took his skill to the point where he also learned techniques from the Kree and Shi'ar empires as well. And he knows the styles comfortably enough to create his own original techniques, and Danny caught him totally off guard and KO'd him, regardless. That's outskilling in my book, and taking advantage of a flaw in X's own style.

I know, but that's my point. Danny and Logan, through different means, brought about a state of mind within them which allowed them to counter X's hax. The fact remains though that neither of them actually out-skilled Mr.X.

It's not the same though. Danny achieved his win through sheer skill application. Logan on the other hand achieved his through giving into his inner animal . Logan's is not a showing of skill.

Hypnotised people multiple times, most noticeably himself, in order to prevent Martian Manhunter from learning his contingencies. This is arguably a better feat than what Danny did against X:

In the attached scan, you've cited one instance, and frankly, this really isn't a showing of skill at all IMO. This just proves that Bruce is versed in knowledge of the brain. To back this up with a non comic source (since it helps explain my point), the entire plot of Artemis Fowl: The Opal Deception reveals that the main character cheated an attempted mind wipe (through magic no less) on himeself, his manservant, as well as another employee of his by setting up memory triggers to regain their memories eventually. He does this through understanding of memory and their personality. Great intelligence showing though, but not really martial arts related

Healed someone through mysticism:

This is not a combat showing. Your scan also seemed to imply that it required gear as part of the ritual to achieve this. Healing people isn't exactly new to Danny (ask Fat Cobra), and unlike Bruce, Danny can even help when people are possessed. Just ask Matt Murdock

Used magic:

While there are aspects of magic that fall under martial arts (just ask Doctor Strange), Zatanna's backwards magic is not a martial art. All this shows is that Bruce has potential to learn magic, but his own morals prevent him from using it. He even says that he "doesn't like resorting to magic".

Slowed his own blood flow and stopped it:

Good showing of skill.

Shut down his body to accelerate healing:

While this is impressive, Danny's healing is better, as he can accelerate his own healing process through chi manipulation and learned knowledge. It seems as if Bruce's healing is still limited to the average healing factor for a comic book peak human

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#44 Posted by Obeyron (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@king-ragnar: I think that Danny being the best martial artist the world has ever seen is his best on panel non hyperbolic statement.

No Caption Provided

Source is Power Man & Iron Fist issue #90.

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#45 Posted by AlphaQ (5783 posts) - - Show Bio

Statements saying a character has mastered such and such a style doesn't really mean much at this stage guys, they're already all at the point where they could replicate any feat in real life skill and there is a lot of similarity between martial arts anyway, as well as inefficiency in different martial arts, that can simply be discarded. What matters is the actual skill feats they've shown, especially because the character that are being compared here are from different universes. Perhaps there are more martial arts, more skilled fighters or different levels of mastery in different universes.

Never mind that there are plenty of characters who are highly skilled even if they know a few, one or even no martial arts.

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#46 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo- said:

@jay_z94:

I'm not saying that it didn't take skill. I originally said that Batman has mastered every fighting style, which Mr.X has done as well. King-Ragnar used this fight to prove that Danny has out-skilled someone who has mastered every martial art. Do you not see the problem here? Danny never out-skilled X.

Danny used his skill to counter X's telepathy (which X shows something of an overeliance on, admittingly), and then proceeded to beat him. X is skilled very skill, as you know. Mr X took his skill to the point where he also learned techniques from the Kree and Shi'ar empires as well. And he knows the styles comfortably enough to create his own original techniques, and Danny caught him totally off guard and KO'd him, regardless. That's outskilling in my book, and taking advantage of a flaw in X's own style.

I disagree on the view that Danny "outskilled" X in martial arts. Before Danny knew about the telepathy, he was arguably on the losing side of the fight. Taking away something that the other guy relies on, then proceeding to one shot, isn't out-skilling or out-fighting someone, he pretty much depowered X. Yes it took skill in itself to activate drunken technique, but that one technique doesn't prove he is more skilled than someone who has mastered every martial art. In-fact, drunken technique is Danny's own hax, so it could be argued that he won via hax. It's made pretty obvious who would have won the fight otherwise, as X stated he could read Danny like a book while getting in a hit and also blocking one.

It's also pretty obvious that X's fighting style pretty much revolves around his mind-reading. Think about it: once that was taken away from X against Logan, look at how easily Wolverine dispatched Mr.X just fighting on instinct. So, if without mind reading X can be beaten by someone using just instinct and no skill, how can we objectively argue that Danny out-skilled him, when it's obvious that X is no-where near as effective without his mind reading.

I know, but that's my point. Danny and Logan, through different means, brought about a state of mind within them which allowed them to counter X's hax. The fact remains though that neither of them actually out-skilled Mr.X.

It's not the same though. Danny achieved his win through sheer skill application. Logan on the other hand achieved his through giving into his inner animal . Logan's is not a showing of skill.

Both Danny and Logan achieved the same outcome, via different routes. Logan's route didn't take skill, but my point is that neither Danny or Logan out-skilled X.

Hypnotised people multiple times, most noticeably himself, in order to prevent Martian Manhunter from learning his contingencies. This is arguably a better feat than what Danny did against X:

In the attached scan, you've cited one instance, and frankly, this really isn't a showing of skill at all IMO. This just proves that Bruce is versed in knowledge of the brain. To back this up with a non comic source (since it helps explain my point), the entire plot of Artemis Fowl: The Opal Deception reveals that the main character cheated an attempted mind wipe (through magic no less) on himeself, his manservant, as well as another employee of his by setting up memory triggers to regain their memories eventually. He does this through understanding of memory and their personality. Great intelligence showing though, but not really martial arts related

He has done it multiple times, I just posted one scan to save time.

Hold on, I know this isn't martial arts related, but you were the one who brought up non-martial arts skill in the first place. How is Danny performing self-healing or energy absorption to do with martial arts?

Healed someone through mysticism:

This is not a combat showing. Your scan also seemed to imply that it required gear as part of the ritual to achieve this. Healing people isn't exactly new to Danny (ask Fat Cobra), and unlike Bruce, Danny can even help when people are possessed. Just ask Matt Murdock

I wouldn't mind if we brought this back to strictly combat, as I wasn't the one who went off tangent. Obviously Danny is going to have better feats like that; he literally has powers as Batman doesn't.

Used magic:

While there are aspects of magic that fall under martial arts (just ask Doctor Strange), Zatanna's backwards magic is not a martial art. All this shows is that Bruce has potential to learn magic, but his own morals prevent him from using it. He even says that he "doesn't like resorting to magic".

Right, so we are focusing on martial arts/combat from now on, yes?

Slowed his own blood flow and stopped it:

Good showing of skill.

Yup :)

Shut down his body to accelerate healing:

While this is impressive, Danny's healing is better, as he can accelerate his own healing process through chi manipulation and learned knowledge. It seems as if Bruce's healing is still limited to the average healing factor for a comic book peak human

Also due to chi he acquired.

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#47 Posted by jay_z94 (7687 posts) - - Show Bio

@obeyron said:

@king-ragnar: I think that Danny being the best martial artist the world has ever seen is his best on panel non hyperbolic statement.

No Caption Provided

Source is Power Man & Iron Fist issue #90.

To be fair, Batman has the same statements. But seeing as they don't live on the same Earth, statements like these are irrelevant.

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#48 Posted by ANTHP2000 (22842 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny helicarrier busts gg no re.

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#49 Edited by Vertigo- (17254 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94:

I disagree on the view that Danny "outskilled" X in martial arts. Before Danny knew about the telepathy, he was arguably on the losing side of the fight. Taking away something that the other guy relies on, then proceeding to one shot, isn't out-skilling or out-fighting someone, he pretty much depowered X. Yes it took skill in itself to activate drunken technique, but that one technique doesn't prove he is more skilled than someone who has mastered every martial art. In-fact, drunken technique is Danny's own hax, so it could be argued that he won via hax. It's made pretty obvious who would have won the fight otherwise, as X stated he could read Danny like a book while getting in a hit and also blocking one.

We can disagree on wether or not Danny outskilled X, and who would or would not have won that fight if such and such did or did not happen. However calling Drunken Fist hax is wrong. It's a martial art that focuses on fighting a certain way. That is in no way hax. And I never called Danny more skilled then X to begin with. All I will say is that while X may have an over reliance on his telepathy in combat, that does not take away from his own established skill level.

It's also pretty obvious that X's fighting style pretty much revolves around his mind-reading. Think about it: once that was taken away from X against Logan, look at how easily Wolverine dispatched Mr.X just fighting on instinct. So, if without mind reading X can be beaten by someone using just instinct and no skill, how can we objectively argue that Danny out-skilled him, when it's obvious that X is no-where near as effective without his mind reading.

And X later insinuated that he developed a counter for Logans berserker rage. All that instance really was is hitting X with something he'd never encountered before, and he arguably adapted to it later. Take the instance with Deadpool as another case of this. He originally couldn't read Deadpool either, but he trained himself to block out the multitude of voices in Wade's head and read his thoughts normally.

Both Danny and Logan achieved the same outcome, via different routes. Logan's route didn't take skill, but my point is that neither Danny or Logan out-skilled X.

Danny used his skill to shut down X's telepathy and beat him in a fight. Wolverine got his ass handed to him outside of berserker rage. In my mind, Danny beat X through his own skill utilization (combat smarts, in other words). We can agree to disagree on that part.

He has done it multiple times, I just posted one scan to save time.

Then I'd like another example, because I don't see that example as anything related to skill, but smarts.

Hold on, I know this isn't martial arts related, but you were the one who brought up non-martial arts skill in the first place. How is Danny performing self-healing or energy absorption to do with martial arts?

Because it's an ability granted to him from chi manipulation, and aspect actually present in some eastern martial arts like Snake Kung Fu or Kendo. The point is to stress Danny's mastery of utilizing his own chi, which comes from his mastery of martial arts

I wouldn't mind if we brought this back to strictly combat, as I wasn't the one who went off tangent. Obviously Danny is going to have better feats like that; he literally has powers as Batman doesn't.

Due to his upbrining in Kun Lun. But even if you take away his Shaou Laou chi, Danny still has his personal chi reserves that he can manipulate, as well as his own raw skill. Danny is so skilled, that he can literally grant himself superhuman physicals. Shang Chi can much do the same through his own chi manipulation.

Right, so we are focusing on martial arts/combat from now on, yes?

Anything that stems from martial arts is what I'm focusing on. Zatanna's backwards magic is not martial arts related. Chi manipulation is martial arts related to me, because Chi has grounds in many martial arts. Again, there are martial aspects to some types of magic as far as I'm aware (IIRC, Constantine knows how to target souls with punches or something, as an example).

Also due to chi he acquired.

And his own skill in manipulation it, which he most likely learned in Kun Lun.