Ip Man vs White Canary and Oliver Queen

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#1 Posted by DarkRoseIronAvenger (2627 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be on the streets. Canary has her staff , ollie is in civillian form and can only go hand to hand.

Win by ko/death.

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#2 Posted by The_Magister (15193 posts) - - Show Bio

Assuming live action versions

Oliver and Sara stomp the hell out of overrated IP Man.

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#3 Edited by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't believe Ip Man is even close to being this skilled, or maybe it's Green Arrow and White Canary being undervalued.

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#4 Edited by The_Magister (15193 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:He isn't.

You know I value choreography, right? Well, the choreography argument really holds up best when we examine characters from similar playing fields from a logical standpoint...that way, choreography is a DIFFERENTIATOR, but not the BASIS of the argument. IP Man doesn't operate on the same scale from a logical standpoint, he is from a realistic universe and his best feats consist of beating up black belts. He shouldn't be in the same conversation as people who hail from worlds that have supersoldiers, mystical ninjas, etc.

Good choreography lands him some points, but not nearly enough to overcome the logical gap in ability.

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#5 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:He isn't.

You know I value choreography, right? Well, the choreography argument really holds up best when we examine characters from similar playing fields from a logical standpoint...that way, choreography is a DIFFERENTIATOR, but not the BASIS of the argument. IP Man doesn't operate on the same scale from a logical standpoint, he is from a realistic universe and his best feats consist of beating up black belts. He shouldn't be in the same conversation as people who hail from worlds that have supersoldiers, mystical ninjas, etc.

Good choreography lands him some points, but not nearly enough to overcome the logical gap in ability.

Stop f***ing implying that Arrow doesn't have good choreography.

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#6 Edited by The_Magister (15193 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by AngelJax (11994 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: Arrow's choreography is pretty shitty. No shame in admitting it.

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#8 Posted by The_Magister (15193 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: What do you think of my take on choreography and its role in battles?

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#9 Posted by AngelJax (11994 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: I think it's a fair way to judge live-action fighters. Paytience can break it down to a science though.

The only thing is that choreography shouldn't be ALL of what's being debated. Up to a point, it doesn't matter too much and independent standings, attributes, and reputation has to be considered. Though you value statements and such as much as you do choreography.

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#10 Posted by DarkRoseIronAvenger (2627 posts) - - Show Bio

Well my biggest thing is since i just binged all three movies on netflix is, his style is of redirecting offensive styles and using there own momentum against them. Utilizing both an defensive and offenseive approach.

Something that oliver and sara dont have.

There are very offensive and that works for ip man, i would suggest he is quicker tbh and i dont know who win but i dont believe this is a stomp.

He faught an entire room full of people that had weapons. Made japanese soilders who had guns look stupid. Was able to blitz a cop who had a gun to his head and more.

I dont believe this is a stomp for them.

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#11 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: It doesn't.

@paytience would rip into that choreography lmao

Because you and paytience have a weird view on what good choreography means. You guys think choreography means the physical execution of movements and the actual technique of the actors. To me, the actors can move really shitty and it doesn't matter, they are just actors. The actual choreography is just the moves themselves in sequence. The execution of the choreography might be in question (but then again, the vast majority of viewers aren't going to notice so who cares) but the actual choreography is super intricate and detailed.

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#12 Edited by Paytience (5335 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk said:
@the_magister said:

@the_hajduk: It doesn't.

@paytience would rip into that choreography lmao

Because you and paytience have a weird view on what good choreography means. You guys think choreography means the physical execution of movements and the actual technique of the actors. To me, the actors can move really shitty and it doesn't matter, they are just actors. The actual choreography is just the moves themselves in sequence. The execution of the choreography might be in question (but then again, the vast majority of viewers aren't going to notice so who cares) but the actual choreography is super intricate and detailed.

Except you're wrong on this point as well. The choreography AND the execution is bad for Arrow. What you're saynig is you think good choreography equals something you think looks cool, but that isn't going to make it any more effective against other fighters outside of the universe, because the actual movements and sequences are POORLY done. They don't make sense, and more to the point, the ones that do kind of have a purpose, are not the right kind of movements for example, to stop what AoS fighters do.

Give me two scenes, the full scenes right now of two fights from each series, and I'll have a breakdown highlighting exactly what I mean.

Arrow choreography ISN'T super intricate and detailed, it's overly complex with too much wasted movement and a LOT of situational engagements that are specifically the result of plot induced stupidity. NONE of that indicates a superior level of actual martial ability. More to the point, "super intricate and detailed" doesn't mean BETTER. It just really doesn't.

I don't judge by choreography. I treat these scenes like fight breakdowns, and I actually do take into account bad execution for BOTH sides. I also take into accounts statements. But there is a line here.

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#13 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

Well my biggest thing is since i just binged all three movies on netflix is, his style is of redirecting offensive styles and using there own momentum against them. Utilizing both an defensive and offenseive approach.

Something that oliver and sara dont have.

If you believe that there is some sort of stylistic advantage or disadvantage to anyone here, I'd be interested to know your take, but you have to go to the effort of showing me proof of Oliver/Sara lacking this trait you described. Disregarding the fact that real martial arts don't really matter so long as it looks good, here is an example of Sara doing exactly what you described and I can probably name a dozen instances like this.

This is at the very end of a fight where Sara fought a swordsman with just a knife. And this swordsman had enough training and sense to identify Sara's training by the callouses on her hands... after Sara did the same thing to him.
This is at the very end of a fight where Sara fought a swordsman with just a knife. And this swordsman had enough training and sense to identify Sara's training by the callouses on her hands... after Sara did the same thing to him.

He faught an entire room full of people that had weapons. Made japanese soilders who had guns look stupid. Was able to blitz a cop who had a gun to his head and more.

I dont believe this is a stomp for them.

Literally every superhero does all of this stuff all the time.

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#14 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk said:
@the_magister said:

@the_hajduk: It doesn't.

@paytience would rip into that choreography lmao

Because you and paytience have a weird view on what good choreography means. You guys think choreography means the physical execution of movements and the actual technique of the actors. To me, the actors can move really shitty and it doesn't matter, they are just actors. The actual choreography is just the moves themselves in sequence. The execution of the choreography might be in question (but then again, the vast majority of viewers aren't going to notice so who cares) but the actual choreography is super intricate and detailed.

Except you're wrong on this point as well. The choreography AND the execution is bad for Arrow. What you're saynig is you think good choreography equals something you think looks cool, but that isn't going to make it any more effective against other fighters outside of the universe, because the actual movements and sequences are POORLY done. They don't make sense, and more to the point, the ones that do kind of have a purpose, are not the right kind of movements for example, to stop what AoS fighters do.

Give me two scenes, the full scenes right now of two fights from each series, and I'll have a breakdown highlighting exactly what I mean.

I'm sure that AoS has more realistic and plausible choreography then Arrow. AoS is that gritty Bourne style while Arrow has choreography more like an old kung fu movie. But I don't believe the realism of the choreography matters at all, because the feats within Arrow's choreography are so inhuman.

For example, in that gif I posted where Green Arrow fights Prometheus, they are attacking each other and defending in ways that would either require some kind of superhuman senses, reflexes, and coordination, or just outright precognition. AoS looking slightly closer to a 'real' fight robs its world of the ability to have these superhuman, grandmaster fictional martial artists.

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#15 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@the_hajduk: Arrow's choreography is pretty shitty. No shame in admitting it.

Maybe during one and a half seasons out of six, plus another three seasons of Legends with consistent top quality.

Or maybe you just don't think that fight scenes like these are cool, which is fine... but I do take offense with your assertion that Arrow's fights are just plain "shitty."

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#16 Posted by AngelJax (11994 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: Lol, do NOT show me that Deathstroke scene or I'm going to lose my mind. He makes very bad decisions throughout the entire sequence that would get someone killed, but hey, it looks cool right?

I'm not saying I don't enjoy fight scenes in Arrow, I LOVE seeing Canary, Thea, Dinah and sometimes Oliver fight. But that's not to say that they are of objectively good quality. And I love the choreography on Legends, mainly due to Sara who's just a badass in every sense.

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#17 Posted by deactivated-5ad4cb41c7fb8 (3527 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I love Yip, he gets stomped here.

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#18 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@the_hajduk: Lol, do NOT show me that Deathstroke scene or I'm going to lose my mind. He makes very bad decisions throughout the entire sequence that would get someone killed, but hey, it looks cool right?

I'm not saying I don't enjoy fight scenes in Arrow, I LOVE seeing Canary, Thea, Dinah and sometimes Oliver fight. But that's not to say that they are of objectively good quality. And I love the choreography on Legends, mainly due to Sara who's just a badass in every sense.

What do you want to see? Realistic choreography? That just isn't going to happen on Arrow. You want something faster paced and more precise? Arrow has plenty of that.

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How about some Dig action?

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#19 Posted by DarkRoseIronAvenger (2627 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything you guys have shown ip man should be able to do himself. Also keep in mind ollie is in civillian clothes and is unarmed. So no arrow or protective suiting.

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#20 Posted by AngelJax (11994 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:

What do you want to see? Realistic choreography? That just isn't going to happen on Arrow.

Not necessarily. Melinda May, Hit-Girl, Sara Lance, Black Widow, Yuri Boyka, Danny Rand, Daredevil all are rather flashy and constantly implement impractical moves. But, they make it look convincing. That's all I ask.

There's several scenes in Arrow where you literally see the punches not connecting and the punch-ee throws themselves back like 5ft. It just takes you out of an episode, ya know?

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#21 Posted by ThanosPimphand (716 posts) - - Show Bio

in 1 on 1 ip man can stalemate either. he beat 10 blackbelts

but 2 on 1? he gets overwhelm

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#22 Edited by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@the_hajduk:

What do you want to see? Realistic choreography? That just isn't going to happen on Arrow.

Not necessarily. Melinda May, Hit-Girl, Sara Lance, Black Widow, Yuri Boyka, Danny Rand, Daredevil all are rather flashy and constantly implement impractical moves. But, they make it look convincing. That's all I ask.

There's several scenes in Arrow where you literally see the punches not connecting and the punch-ee throws themselves back like 5ft. It just takes you out of an episode, ya know?

I don't think I've posted an Arrow gif with a single clearly missed strike.

You're literally talking about one of Netflix's biggest shortcomings since the beginning (impact of hits) and applying it to Arrow instead. But there's no shortage of entire action sequences in Daredevil where the blows all barely even look like they're connecting. An example off the top of my head:

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#23 Posted by GateOfBabylon (5261 posts) - - Show Bio

Arrow does have pretty bad fight choreography. I often find myself downplaying Arrow characters coz of that.

But logically the duo should win.

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#24 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

in 1 on 1 ip man can stalemate either. he beat 10 blackbelts

but 2 on 1? he gets overwhelm

How does beating 10 Japanese blackbelts compare to the Arrow (AKA an early version of Oliver) beating closer to 20 Deathstroke assassins?

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#25 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

Arrow does have pretty bad fight choreography. I often find myself downplaying Arrow characters coz of that.

But logically the duo should win.

People just keep mindlessly regurgitating the same responses over and over again no matter how much proof I present.

It's almost as if people are biased against Arrow and will do anything to make the MCU look superior.

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#26 Posted by BruceRogers (17798 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.

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#27 Posted by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

How does beating 10 Japanese blackbelts compare to the Arrow (AKA an early version of Oliver) beating closer to 20 Deathstroke assassins?

I agree in theory, but not necessarily. 20 specifically featless assassins. Not even named ones in that group. Conversely, we don't know much about those 10 japanese black belts either. We are scaling from Ollie and IP man himself mainly. We imagine given who Ollie has fought, they must be pretty good, and the other Deathstroke people before having semi-decent feats to them. But that isn't a complete certainty, and especially when figuring all the times jobbing and everything else.

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#28 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

This went from IP Man vs White Canary and Arrow to who has good choreography, CW or Netflix.

Anyways, i believe IP Man can pull something off.

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#29 Edited by Paytience (5335 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk said:
@gateofbabylon said:

Arrow does have pretty bad fight choreography. I often find myself downplaying Arrow characters coz of that.

But logically the duo should win.

People just keep mindlessly regurgitating the same responses over and over again no matter how much proof I present.

It's almost as if people are biased against Arrow and will do anything to make the MCU look superior.

MCU characters are not even part of the op here though, man. Think about that for a minute...

I apologize, because I did mention the show; however that's my bad. I was responding to a tag, and not really focusing on the thread op's. But we're not trying to make the MCU look like anything. Nobody has even posted an MCU vid in comparison...except for you.

Everyone else is just responding to, or critiquing, the Arrow gifs that are posted.

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5b2dd32201ad6 (2795 posts) - - Show Bio

Ip gets stomped.

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#31 Posted by WhyZoSerious (2129 posts) - - Show Bio

Ip man stomps. You guys have obviosuly never watched the movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upwyWKzozII

Oliver can't do that, White Canary can't do that.

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#32 Edited by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhopullsthestrings said:

How does beating 10 Japanese blackbelts compare to the Arrow (AKA an early version of Oliver) beating closer to 20 Deathstroke assassins?

I agree in theory, but not necessarily. 20 specifically featless assassins. Not even named ones in that group. Conversely, we don't know much about those 10 japanese black belts either. We are scaling from Ollie and IP man himself mainly. We imagine given who Ollie has fought, they must be pretty good, and the other Deathstroke people before having semi-decent feats to them. But that isn't a complete certainty, and especially when figuring all the times jobbing and everything else.

So what's the conclusion? Everything you brought up can be applied to the Ip Man feat as well. Are they just both left with nothing?

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#33 Posted by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:

The conclusion I thought I left as obvious. That it is likely given the power scaling that we can assume that Oliver wins. Just not to treat it as some certainty by that metric as if the 20 assassins must be better than the 10 Japanese - the answer to that is, maybe, probably. Not absolutely.

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#34 Posted by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:

The conclusion I thought I left as obvious. That it is likely given the power scaling that we can assume that Oliver wins. Just not to treat it as some certainty by that metric as if the 20 assassins must be better than the 10 Japanese - the answer to that is, maybe, probably. Not absolutely.

I agree but why am I being picked on? Somebody else said that Ip Man wins because he beat the 10 blackbelts, I was posting a counter-feat with the same level of explanation and evaluation.

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#35 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:

Don't take it as me picking on anyone. I read what you said, and felt like I wanted to refine it. I didn't bother responding to the thread or anyone else because I didn't feel like it, and I feel this is going to be a "well, it is stated to fight superhumans, but doesn't look as good as a fighter vs someone who looks like much better of a fighter in fights, just nothing he actually fights is said to be superhuman, etc". It just doesn't interest me, and that is why I usually don't like making threads that put those types against the other.

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#36 Edited by The_Hajduk (7284 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhopullsthestrings said:

@the_hajduk:

Don't take it as me picking on anyone. I read what you said, and felt like I wanted to refine it. I didn't bother responding to the thread or anyone else because I didn't feel like it, and I feel this is going to be a "well, it is stated to fight superhumans, but doesn't look as good as a fighter vs someone who looks like much better of a fighter in fights, just nothing he actually fights is said to be superhuman, etc". It just doesn't interest me, and that is why I usually don't like making threads that put those types against the other.

There are more ways to go about it then that. You're acting like Ip Man has no feats.

I only watched the first movie and I remember him winning every single fight in the movie easily. I remember some bandit entered the village and beat the shit out of all the masters for fun, but couldn't touch Ip Man, then tried to fight Ip Man with a sword, and Ip Man used a feather duster to parry and pressure point him.

I also remember Ip Man training his whole village to kick ass, and the movie ended with Ip Man fighting the military leader.

I've seen clips of Ip Man 3, and Mike Tyson seemed like a genuinely threatening foe with possibly metahuman strikes and durability as well.

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#37 Edited by RBT (30376 posts) - - Show Bio

When your characters don't have feats on par, make it all about choreography- AoS fan logic.

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#38 Posted by DarkRoseIronAvenger (2627 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanospimphand: @gateofbabylon: @theonewhopullsthestrings: @all-father: @ig-88: @the_hajduk: @theonewhopullsthestrings: I apologize but i still kind of fail to see where this is a stomp. I can accept him loosing but i don't believe its a stomp. So this is gonna be on my phone so it'll be links and it'll be the best i can find in a short time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=7s&v=DIMIZPbnfNs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRK9knnFJs

(This one is important. Must Watch. The black belt fight scene.) He also hadnt practiced or trained in over 5 years.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0w__zTMPXM

This one show cases his skill against other masters on a table about 6 by 6 feet.

This are some of the ones i can find hope it helps show it isnt a stomp.

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#39 Posted by BruceRogers (17798 posts) - - Show Bio

Did people misread Ip Man vs Oliver and White Canary as Arrowverse vs MCU by any chance?

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#40 Posted by WolverineBatmanFTW (2177 posts) - - Show Bio

Ip Man is good but we shouldn't compare real-life characters to fictional ones. Oliver and Sara should wreck with nigh superhuman physicals.

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#43 Posted by SupremeGeneration (12928 posts) - - Show Bio

Forgot Oliver can KO Supergirl-level opponents.

That said, I’ve always been skeptical of the choreography arguments, even though I often favor Agents over CW fighters.

A perfectly choreographed fodder fight 1v3 is somehow better than a shitty choreographed fodder fight 1v10 of the same fodder (or level of fodder). Doesn’t make sense to me, and it’s been explained to me a number of times.

Also, in-universe logic. For me, it only works to an extent. I’m a bit more old-timey CV despite probably being the youngest one posting on this thread. I prefer raw feats to choreography and in-universe logic any day, although I will admit that that’s probably because I’m more of a comic debater than a live action debater.

As for the fight, CW duo takes it.

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#45 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

The team wins.

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#46 Posted by AngelJax (11994 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration said:

Forgot Oliver can KO Supergirl-level opponents.

They're not.... The one Kara fought was from Earth 38. This was the Earth 1 Dominators.

Was there any in-universe explanation or evidence as to why Earth 38 and Earth 1 Dominators would be different from each other?

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

Ip Man.

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#50 Posted by GateOfBabylon (5261 posts) - - Show Bio

@danieldaripper: I think both you and Hajduk got the wrong idea about my post. Maybe it was my fault that I didn't phrase it better. All I was stating is that better choreography allows for better solidification of feats and easier comparison. For example, Ip Man's choreography makes him look multiple times more skilled than Oliver. But Oliver+Sara's feats are enough to prove that they can pull a win over Ip Man, so naturally I'm still giving the win to them.