Immortal Hulk vs H/P Doomsday

@rampagethefirst: Wow, what the hell kind of reaction is that? I guess my prediction from before was right, you really are butthurt over the Immortal Hulk situation and just hate the character. How am i wanking him exactly? Tell me a single thing i said about the character that is wanking him? If you can't stand someone tagging you in a forum where the whole purpose is to tag people and debate characters than stay off the forums, is it that hard? The HP/DD wank has nothing to do with me or Hulk actually, it was something pointed out to me by other people and pre-52 Superman can actually beat the crap of HP/DD. The Superman that lost to HP/DD couldn't hurt Braniac when a car crashing in him could, struggled greatly to stop a 300 ton train from falling and couldn't even go hypersonic. That's the Superman that HP/DD fought, not the planetary level character that everyone assumes.

Next time, react normally you aren't a child to throw a temper tantrum just because of someone is TAGGING you on a forum. Jesus Christ if its annoying to you ignore it. I don't have to explain such a base thing to you.

Tag me when that thread is up.

@empressofdread: I probably wont be making it, but who knows.

DD pulverizes.

@virtuozzo: I don't hate Hulk but its annoying when users keep tagging you for having a different opinion.

@rampagethefirst: Sure you don't dude, i didn't tag you because you had a different opinion on Hulk here did I?

Whatever man just don't blow a casket over something so trivial, if me tagging you bothers you ignore me and i wont tag you.

doomsday unless you wanna wank hulk

HP Doomsday is overhyped to shit, people don't read the comics and just parrot the fact that he's 'supposed' to be powerful. I'm not even convinced that Post crisis Clark at his best would lost to him... Later incarnations of DD are far stronger. I honestly don't understand where this idea that HP DD is a beast comes from.

I'd honestly love for someone here to educate me on how HP Doomsday 'curbs' Immortal Hulk without simply saying "hurr dur Doomsday".

The best thing about this thread is that >HP Doomsday< literally did none of those things and I'm pretty certain that 90% of this thread are completely unaware of that because they've never read Hunter/Prey before.

You have issue numbers for those things?

Edit: Just re-read Doomsday wars ahah.

HP Doomsday is overhyped to shit,

Don't agree.

people don't read the comics and just parrot the fact that he's 'supposed' to be powerful.

We'll see. How are you claiming people don't read comics as of now? (edit: You can't generalise everyone I see what you were pointing at).

I'm not even convinced that Post crisis Clark at his best would lost to him... Later incarnations of DD are far stronger.

Doomsday was shown more powerful compared to his usual self. The later incarnations of Doomsday are powerful too yet, and logically they are weaker. Which incarnations can be used to scale.

I honestly don't understand where this idea that HP DD is a beast comes from.

Doomsday is always a beast. HP Doomsday is more of a beast as he dispatched Kyle Rayner, Martian Manhunter and No sold Orions full blast of Astro Force and stuff like that.

I'd honestly love for someone here to educate me on how HP Doomsday 'curbs' Immortal Hulk without simply saying "hurr dur Doomsday".

For me, He is still below WBH who loses to HP Doomsday who is more powerful than every other Doomsday. Or his clones etc.

I don't i just seen a few scans, @pipxeroth should have the issues numbers.

This is the biggest problem with these forums though, i mean screw Hulk entirely here i am not even talking about him at all. The problem is people like to parrot a lot of the things they hear on the site rather then do their own research, can't say i didn't use to do that a lot too. I mean who is gonna read up on every single character and try to find all of the context behind them? This is why this site had a problem with characters like King Hyperion, Gladiator, Black Adam, Sentry and many, many more. Until people started reading up on them more and started calling out bullshit.

Once you start looking into HP/DD you see that he is no different if not worse in some aspects. He is a character that exists ENTIRELY on scaling and beating up nerfed characters, many of them off screen. HP/DD beating up Kyle Raynor without knowing all the context and even then should be taken with as much grain of salt as when Zod and Faora stomped both him and Hal. Guys like Green Lanterns, Flash and MMH do job a lot anyway.

HP/DD didn't beat up a single character that was operating on planetary level at the time.

@thedailybagel: I just re-read the Doomsday Wars myself and i am howling. The Superman in that is legit worse then the current Rebirth Superman.

"Tough to handle a 300 ton plane falling even at my 100%"

Even Ben Grimm felt embarrassed at that statement.

@empressofdread:

Don't agree.

And I can see why given the fact that your applying feats to HP Doomsday that he never performed.

We'll see. How are you claiming people don't read comics as of now? (edit: You can't generalise everyone I see what you were pointing at).

Because you literally just proved my point by claiming that HP Doomsday performed a feat that wasn't HP Doomsday.

Doomsday was shown more powerful compared to his usual self. The later incarnations of Doomsday are powerful too yet, and logically they are weaker. Which incarnations can be used to scale.

This is my point, Doomsday did not have a "usual self"before Hunter Prey and he>never has<. He adapts and evolves constantly, other Doomsdays actually stomped the league; wrecked Imperiex probes; fought Gogs for years; molly whopped beings like Eradicator and Cyborg Superman etc etc and none of them were HP Doomsday. The only other versions of DD appliciable to HP are DOS and anything before that.

Doomsday is always a beast. HP Doomsday is more of a beast as he dispatched Kyle Rayner, Martian Manhunter and No sold Orions full blast of Astro Force and stuff like that.

That wasn't HP Doomsday, HP Doomsday was killed by being crushed at the end of Hunter/Prey. Doomsday Wars is who you're referring to and he was saved because of Zero Hour, which caused Brainiac to save him a microsecond before death which should have allowed DD to adapt from a near death experience...

It wasn't even HP Doomsday in control, it was Brainiac who even gave DD the ability to use things like psi blasts and he himself confirmed that DD was now more dangerous than ever, on top of beating down Clark far worse than before...

Even disregarding that, this Doomsday was beating down people like Orion within a page and no selling Clark's heat vision which explicitly hurt him in HP.

For me, He is still below WBH who loses to HP Doomsday who is more powerful than every other Doomsday. Or his clones etc.

WBH would beat HP Doomsday bloody. I haven't even started on why he isn't beating Immortal Hulk.

@virtuozzo:I wouldn't even say Doomsday wars is appliciable to HP to be honest... Even then people explicitly jobbed to DD, like Orion who was KOed by a tank hitting him, in fact I don't think anyone lasted more than a few seconds aside from Clark despite half the JL roster being on par or more powerful than him.

I wouldn't mind at all to be honest. Considering all the crap that happens in the comic. From Braniac tanking Supermans punches to being pinned and bleeding from a taxi hitting him to Superman barely able to outrun a military missile, to all of the League being beaten off screen, to Orion getting KO'd by a tank being dropped on him to Superman struggling immensely to stop a 300 ton plane from falling. The whole comic does a disservice to everyone involved in it.

This is Rebirth levels of weak and i am not even talking about current Rebirth, but Rebirth from a year ago.

Yea the whole thing made little sense, but that's actually Dan Jurgen for you, i mean seriously how many times has this man in both DC and Marvel had nonsense things happen that we have discussed on the forums ad nauseam? Even worse are his interview statements.

"Odin is only planetary."

@thedailybagel:

And I can see why given the fact that your applying feats to HP Doomsday that he never performed.

Because you literally just proved my point by claiming that HP Doomsday performed a feat that wasn't HP Doomsday.

Where and when?

This is my point, Doomsday did not have a "usual self"before Hunter Prey and he>never has<. He adapts and evolves constantly,

Doomsday is always adapting and evolving. I am not understanding your point.

other Doomsdays actually stomped the league; wrecked Imperiex probes; fought Gogs for years; molly whopped beings like Eradicator and Cyborg Superman etc etc and none of them were HP Doomsday.

Yes Doomsday always adapts and evolved but he can be scaled from his clones and weaker Doomsday. That's why ROD Doomsday has similar adaptation and showings to that of HP Doomsday.

The only other versions of DD appliciable to HP are DOS and anything before that.

And why is that? HP Doomsday beat Darkseid, Kyle Rayner, Martian Manhunter etc. With ridiculous ease.

That wasn't HP Doomsday, HP Doomsday was killed by being crushed at the end of Hunter/Prey. Doomsday Wars is who you're referring to and he was saved because of Zero Hour, which caused Brainiac to save him a microsecond before death which should have allowed DD to adapt from a near death experience...

I am aware he was saved from being crushed by Entropy. So what's wrong with that.

It wasn't even HP Doomsday in control, it was Brainiac who even gave DD the ability to use things like psi blasts and he himself confirmed that DD was now more dangerous than ever, on top of beating down Clark far worse than before...

Yes.

Even disregarding that, this Doomsday was beating down people like Orion within a page and no selling Clark's heat vision which explicitly hurt him in HP

And he regenerated from that.

WBH would beat HP Doomsday bloody. I haven't even started on why he isn't beating Immortal Hulk.

Just no. With HP Doomsday I mean his feats from Doomsday Wars and Reign of Doomsday included. We can't just used showing from HP series alone. He requires scaling since he lacks feats. Other than that, yeah pretty much it. If you want I can CAV the same topic. Because DD pulverize WBH.

You realise at this point your argument is literally just pulling feats from other (explicitly stronger) versions of Doomsday out of your ass? It's like me using Nul and crying that he doesn't have enough feats so then deciding to use WBH. Your argument genuinely baffles me, things like this:

Reign of Doomsday included

Why the heck is ROD included in your assessment? Doomsday has half a dozen appearances before that. It takes place nearly 20 years after Hunter/Prey, the Doomsday in that story isn't even Doomsday. There's multiple of them and they're all clones with modified powers created by Lex Luthor. When I said people don't read the comics, you are exactly the kind of viner that I was talking about.

We can't just used showing from HP series alone. He requires scaling since he lacks feats

Hence why he's an overrated mess, capiche?

@thedailybagel:

You realise at this point your argument is literally just pulling feats from other (explicitly stronger) versions of Doomsday out of your ass?

Why the hell are you getting salty? No, Those are versions of Doomsday, weaker than the one in Doomsday Wars for example. Doomsday Wars DD is HP Doomsday although more powerful.

It's like me using Nul and crying that he doesn't have enough feats so then deciding to use WBH. Your argument genuinely baffles me, things like this:

Why the heck is ROD included in your assessment? Doomsday has half a dozen appearances before that. It takes place nearly 20 years after Hunter/Prey, the Doomsday in that story isn't even Doomsday. There's multiple of them and they're all clones with modified powers created by Lex Luthor. When I said people don't read the comics, you are exactly the kind of viner that I was talking about.

Clones are obviously weaker than Doomsday Wars Doomsday, which is HP Doomsday, and we can sale from clones. That's perfectly normal scaling. The stats seem consistent with Doomsday Wars Doomsday. Though, I'm sure you haven't read comics or/ and when your lowballing tactics don't work you argue loquaciously, as Doomsdays feat from Doomsday wars etc trumps WBHs feats. Apart from swearing, you have added nothing. You obviously won't CAV in that case, because you yourself know he is Superior.

Hence why he's an overrated mess, capiche?

No. He does rely on scaling but as long as it can be used properly its fine.

The weird thing about Doomsday is that Jurgens actually considers him to be on par with Superman. This is something he explained while talking about Hunter-Prey arc, and he wrote that, along with several other Doomsday stories and Superman stories, and even created Doomsday. I know people will keep bringing up him beating Darkseid but Jurgens also stated that he thinks Superman is way more powerful than Darkseid. So Uxas losing to Doomsday has more to do with Jurgens' overall low views on the character rather than high views on Doomsday himself. Again, he thinks Doomsday is equal to Superman who he thinks is way stronger than Darkseid.

The showcase of power translates accurately to his own views of the characters, but not accurate level. Uxas stalemated, overpowered or barely lost to Clark multiple times without even using Omega Beams (not including contextual fights). I know people also like to bring up Doomsday JLA-busting in Doomsday Wars but that was also written by Jurgens and recap of issues states that Doomsday Wars Doomsday is more powerful than Hunter-Prey Doomsday. And even that Doomsday failed to put holding back and distracted Clark down after 2 fights that were 10+ panels long, just like he failed to do so to Superman during Hunter-Prey.

This all happened before Our Worlds at War, when Superman became way more powerful and tanked an attack that reduced Doomsday to skeleton (although I don't think that was written by Jurgens and I am not sure if Doomsday's power level changed during Imperiex arc). While it was stated that Motherbox amped Clark, that was written in other comic that retells the story and wasn't written by Jurgens either, and while that by itself does not make it irrelevant, the fact that Jurgens thinks Superman and Doomsday are comparable, and that he later had stronger Doomsday fail to put non amped Clark down, kinda questions the consistency.

Sure, he busted JLA, but didn't come close to doing the same to Superman regardless of arguably more durable members like Kyle or Orion. So it begs the question, does Jurgens have low views on JLA or just high views on Superman? Clearly he believes they are comparable based on his own statement and had Doomsday fail to come close to putting Clark down during 3 fights that lasted longer than 10 full pages, one of which was distracted Clark trying to save Lana's baby, with Jurgens himself claiming Clark would have fared way better if that wasn't a factor, in the same interview (which does make sense). This was all before Our Worlds at War by the way.

==================================================================================

I just want to point this out for the sake of info. Everything I said above is objective fact. Whether people want to decide how to interpret this and what would they rather believe is all up to them. I won't try to convince anyone that Clark = Doomsday or Doomsday >>> Darkseid and JLA or whatever. I am just saying how Doomsday overall is hard to quantify. I can't even speak for the outcome here.

Good breakdown, personally i think he has low views on the JLA, or just characters in general if you look at Jurgens he thinks Skyfathers are planetary, he thinks Superman is way above Darkseid and he thinks Superman can beat HP/DD himself. Now people might wonder, well that just means he thinks highly of Superman? Not really.

In Doomsday Wars, Superman explicitly stated that even at his 100% he would struggle greatly to stop a 300 ton plane from falling, he failed to hurt Braniac more than a random taxi ramming into him did, he also struggled and barely escaped a military missile and had to fly away from it until it ran out of fuel.

All of the JLA were jobbing in Doomsday Wars like hell, they got either beat off screen or one-shotted by things that shouldn't one-shot them or get KO'd but really stupid things like Orion with a tank falling on him.

He also thinks Thor > Superman. Which i guess means Thor > Superman > HP/DD > Darkseid in his mind and that's honestly how he wrote the characters.

Also have you read Immortal Hulk yet? If you have what do you think of the story?

@virtuozzo:

Good breakdown,

Thanks.

He also thinks Thor > Superman.

He actually thinks Superman is WAY more powerful than Thor, but thinks Thor would win because of Clark's weakness to magic.

Unless he said something else in the interview that I either forgot or missed.

Also have you read Immortal Hulk yet? If you have what do you think of the story?

I am in the middle of reading 3 titles at the moment and I would rather not get into anything new until I finish those. So no I haven't (yet).

@empressofdread:

Why the hell are you getting salty? No, Those are versions of Doomsday, weaker than the one in Doomsday Wars for example. Doomsday Wars DD is HP Doomsday although more powerful.

• Doomsday Wars Doomsday was controlled by Braniac and given additional abilities such as Psi blasts
• Doomsday Wars DD survived being crushed by a microsecond and should've gotten stronger because of it
• Doomsday Wars DD has far better feats than HP.

Despite these things you keep using Doomsday Wars feats for a thread involving Hunter/Prey Doomsday. Their feats are not cross interchangeable. You can use HP feats for Doomsday wars DD because he's objectively more powerful, the reverse isn't true because HP DD is explicitly weaker. You wanna use Doomsday wars feats? Go and make another thread.

Clones are obviously weaker than Doomsday Wars

This is such a terrible argument, we aren't even talking about Doomsday Wars in this thread so I don't care how they scale to him. The fact remains that you can't use feats from beings that aren't the real Doomsday just like you can't use feats from Thanosii clones for the real Thanos - they aren't the same person. More specifically those clones were all specifically designed with abilities that HP Doomsday does not have because they were created to counter certain powersets.

Though, I'm sure you haven't read comics

Pot meet Kettle. You realise that I'm the one informing of you context that you didn't know? You're literally just repeating what I said to you.

nd when your lowballing tactics don't work you argue loquaciously,

What the hell have I lowballed? I've just told you that HP Doomsday is overrated and you keep bringing up versions of DD that aren't related to HP Doomsday. One of your picks were Doomsday clones from a story totally unrelated to Hunter/Prey and Doomsday Wars that was written 20 years after HP was. This is like arguing with a brick wall.

as Doomsdays feat from Doomsday wars etc trumps WBHs feats.

Regardless of my opinions on this, this is irrelevant to this thread and this entire time you've beenn unable to stick to the version of Doomsday involved.

You obviously won't CAV in that case, because you yourself know he is Superior.

Oh I'd definitely CAV Hunter/Prey doomsday because he's the only DD I have strong opinions on. The rest I could care less, specially this strange composite version of Doomsday that doesn't exist in the comics but somehow does in your head.

No. He does rely on scaling but as long as it can be used properly its fine.

There's scaling and then there's using feats from other characters and completely different versions of the same character. One guess as to which one your doing.

This is also very important to consider, well said Krle.

@krleavenger: I was referring to that interview i just forgot about the latter on part, so yea you are spot on there. Weird justification and scaling from Jurgen tbh.

Take your time, you should definitely pick it up as it's currently the best Marvel title out, every new issue goes into 2nd printing, the series keeps gaining readers.

@thedailybagel:

• Doomsday Wars Doomsday was controlled by Brainiac and given additional abilities such as Psi blasts

Ok.

• Doomsday Wars DD survived being crushed by a microsecond and should've gotten stronger because of it

OK,.

• Doomsday Wars DD has far better feats than HP.

Yeah, but he is HP.

Despite these things you keep using Doomsday Wars feats for a thread involving Hunter/Prey Doomsday. Their feats are not cross interchangeable. You can use HP feats for Doomsday wars DD because he's objectively more powerful, the reverse isn't true because HP DD is explicitly weaker. You wanna use Doomsday wars feats? Go and make another thread.

HP Doomsday became more powerful in DW DD. Simple so its the same. It's evolution. That's the order.

This is such a terrible argument, we aren't even talking about Doomsday Wars in this thread so I don't care how they scale to him. The fact remains that you can't use feats from beings that aren't the real Doomsday just like you can't use feats from Thanosii clones for the real Thanos - they aren't the same person.

Thanos and DD is a terrible comparison. Not only is that from a different universe but a different character has a different scaling consistency, power set etc. Doomsday can be scaled from Doomsday although Doomsday Wars doomsday is enough.

More specifically those clones were all specifically designed with abilities that HP Doomsday does not have because they were created to counter certain powersets.

His evolution and stats show how he is pretty much similar to DD Wars Doomsday anyway scratch that is doesn't matter, bro. What I wanted to use was scaling for some similar stats he showed in DD Wars. Which is consistent.

Pot meet Kettle. You realise that I'm the one informing of you context that you didn't know?

Wrong. Since you literally haven't added anything new that I didn't know. Till now. But we'll see.

You're literally just repeating what I said to you.

No.

What the hell have I lowballed? I've just told you that HP Doomsday is overrated and you keep bringing up versions of DD that aren't related to HP Doomsday.

DD Wars doomsday is HP Doomsday.

One of your picks were Doomsday clones from a story totally unrelated to Hunter/Prey and Doomsday Wars that was written 20 years after HP was.

And you can counter and explain that is wrong if you want to do CAV.

This is like arguing with a brick wall.

Arguing with you is worse.

Regardless of my opinions on this, this is irrelevant to this thread and this entire time you've beenn unable to stick to the version of Doomsday involved.

DD wars Doomsday is HP Doomsday.

Oh I'd definitely CAV Hunter/Prey doomsday because he's the only DD I have strong opinions on. The rest I could care less, specially this strange composite version of Doomsday that doesn't exist in the comics but somehow does in your head.

No. I am saying HP Doomsday only. He does appear in DD wars though.

There's scaling and then there's using feats from other characters and completely different versions of the same character. One guess as to which one your doing.

That is Doomsday only. Its like scaling Superman from a weaker Superboy or Krypto. Both are in the same universe.

@empressofdread: Screw it. PM if you want a CAV I need somewhere I can just refer to when HP Doomsday is brought up instead of repeating myself.

@thedailybagel: I'll PM you to discuss.

As for your gif, bro.

@virtuozzo Yeah, it is weird. But writers don't think like us and don't care as much so I don't hold it against Jurgens. He is a great writer in my opinion. And yeah, I will probably check it out in a couple of weeks.

@thedailybagel Just trying to provide all the info necessary.

By the way, Doomsday Wars Doomsday was actually confirmed to be stronger than Hunter-Prey Doomsday.

@krleavenger:

By the way, Doomsday Wars Doomsday was actually confirmed to be stronger than Hunter-Prey Doomsday.

But he is evolved HP Doomsday so why can't we use it here?

@empressofdread: You said it yourself. It is evolved version. And he was confirmed to be stronger. And he is from a different arc. He is no longer Hunter-Prey version but Doomsday Wars version. Although for some reason people use the latter as Hunter-Prey version too for some reason even tho he is stronger, so I guess if you want to look at it that way too, then by all means do so. It is popular opinion anyway. I think when people say Hunter-Prey Doomsday, they are talking about overall Composite Doomsday from everything Pre-Our Worlds at War. From DoS, over HP to DW. But like I said, I am just here to provide info. Not to debate. I am not taking any sides.

HP Doomsday easy.

@krleavenger:

I think when people say Hunter-Prey Doomsday, they are talking about overall Composite Doomsday from everything Pre-Our Worlds at War. From DoS, over HP to DW.

Yeah, thanks.

But like I said, I am just here to provide info. Not to debate. I am not taking any sides.

I know that. But thanks anyway.

@krleavenger: was he confirmed in the comic itself because I never saw a direct statement outside of the obvious disparity in showings.

@thedailybagel: Actually now that I look at it, it could be more of an hyperbolic or overblown statement rather than an actual confirmation. But there is this paragraph from issue recap which states that he "has returned to Earth more powerful than ever".

It could be over exaggerated but that is up to you. Some may say it is not clear cut but oh well. I think it is valid.

@krleavenger: I mean to be honest it does make sense given the fact that his showings in world at war were so much better, he was controlled by braniac half the time and he escaped entropy without being killed which should have allowed him to become stronger.

@thedailybagel: Like I said, that is up to you. I am not here to tell people what they should and shouldn't think. I am just here to provide information. 100% objective. Don't really care about arguing.

Now, that's just incongruent.

@ghostravage: I guess, but it is not like anything was left out so nobody can come up with opinion themselves that is actually valid. I already brought up everything Jurgens said and wrote and everything relevant to the topic above. Whether I think Doomsday is JLA busting level or Superman level isn't really relevant, since it is up for a debate. The source material isn't even big to begin with.

Hulk in this form of him would win but not easily.

Think Rocky 2. That's how it ends.

@thedailybagel: @empressofdread: please CaV it.

@empressofdread: @thedailybagel: So immortal hulk v hp doomsday cav?

Eh, Jurgens says a lot of things that are clearly just an attempt to shut the fans up. Many writers do that when asked to weigh in on character vs character questions. I personally dont put a lot of stock in them.

Meh the thing vs Doomsday

@thedailybagel: @virtuozzo: Yeah I don't think Doomsday Wars DD is applicable to H/P, but even if he was he was absolute dogshit scaling from Superman in there.

Superman fought Braniac for at least an hour and Braniac is still totally unharmed after all of his hits, then he gets hit by a car (that he saw coming mind you) and is seriously hurt by it and unable to push it off himself.

Gallery

Clark can barely outspeed missiles fired at him from a jet to the point where he has to continue to fly into orbit until the missiles engines are out

Gallery

Struggles greatly to stop a 387 ton plane from falling out of the sky and said it would be difficult even when he's not injured

Gallery

Superman when pissed off and flying at full speed is thought initially to be a missile and isn't even fully FTE

Doomsday debaters decide to just ignore clear evidence that the characters Doomsday is scaling off are not remotely powerful in the issues he appears in. It's blatantly obvious that the Superman he fought in Doomsday Wars was an embarrassing low mid tier, but for some reason people think it's okay to act as if they can scale Doomsday off of Post-Crisis Supes' consistent power level. Not just Superman either, the same goes for the rest of the characters he fights, like there's people bringing up Cyborg Superman in this thread, but the Cyborg Supes that the Doomsday Clone defeated was knocked over by Nightwing, effortlessly had his core ripped out by Superman, and most importantly straight up split the clone in half with a bullrush first before the clone had his plot device adaption powers activate and became a Cyborg-Doomsday. It's absurd but people clearly have no intentions of stopping for whatever reason.

@lil_remains: We are working on the terms to get to an agreement in a PM.

No. Not a version who can get new feats like Immortal Hulk, if his feats are restricted to one-shotting Thor and no further then maybe.

Lmao

Still DD.