VERSUS
Rules:
- Canon Vader, no Legends feats.
- Fighters are determined to win.
- No knowledge or prep.
- Fight takes place in an abandoned London.
- Start 80 feet apart.
- Win by death or KO.
Who wins and why?
Ikaris (MCU) vs Darth Vader (Canon)
@frozen: This is the post in case you wanna see it
Honestly that’s a huge level of durability.
And inside the sun it’s not just heat destroying you. It’s also radiation, solar flare, and raw energy hitting you.
@nassergrant19: Thanks. That's good, though I'd say its more relevant to heat. I don't think a saber would kill him. His TK can do the job - either externally or crush his internal organs.
If we take Ikaris's island feat at face value, then by the same token we should take Vader's accolades. The canon junior novel The Empire Strikes Back: So You Want to Be A Jedi states that Vader is more powerful than any star destroyer, including the executor (a far larger ISD). The wording is not very ambiguous either and rather literal:
Canon ISDs can vaporize cities, countries andeven shook a planet. Vader's AP in the force would scale above this.
As far as speed goes, 53 Jedi (including Yoda) in the canon High Republic novel Light of The Jedi were able to track debris travelling at near light speed:
Vader scales above Yoda in the force due to the fact that he scales BoD is pre suit self, who in turn was confirmed above Yoda in Skywalker Family at War and also the Revenge of The Sith junior novel, in which Yoda admits that Anakin is more powerful than himself.
Anakin's confirmed scaling above Yoda per Skywalker Family at War:
The junior novel statement, in which Yoda states Anakin is more powerful than biased and also any Jedi he has ever met. So not only is Anakin > Yoda in the force, but also scales above the jedi involved in he above feat (individually) who could track the debris.
"Premonitions were a rare talent for a Jedi, but not unknown. Yoda had searched the paths of the future himself on occasion. No one had done so deliberately in years, however; not since the dark side began to grow, making such foresight dangerous and unreliable. But Anakin was strong in the Force, stronger than any Jedi Yoda had known in all his hundreds of years. And he had not sought the visions, that much was clear, though he was reluctant to speak too plainly of whatever he had seen. Yoda nodded encouragingly." (Page 83)
The author of the novel has clarified with me that this refers to actualized power and encompasses Yoda himself in the statement:
Most recently, Secrets of the Sithwhich was released on 12th October 2021 details Palpatine's writings. In this book, Palpatine remarks that jedi Anakin as of ROTS had power that rivalled his own.
And or course, Vader's scaling above Anakin in the force is well documented:
5 years after ROTS, Vader was noted to have surpassed his pre suit self in the force per Lords of The Sith:
"Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black transparisteel of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force.Suffering had birthed insight." (p11)
Further confirmation of Vader becoming more powerful can be found in the canon DK reference book Jedi v Sith (2016), which reprinted quotes from Jedi Battles 2013 into Disney canon:
The canon 2015 book Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader establishes that his powers grew stronger over time - so this outright confirms linear growth:
We also have the 2017 figurine (Return of Anakin Skywalker) placing his prime as being ROTJ:
https://en.kotobukiya.co.jp/product/product-0000001288/
More powerful than ever before in the Force as well as mastery of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. Updated to match his appearance in Return of the Jedi, the fallen Jedi stands with his crimson lightsaber at the ready for both attack and defense
To further add, Vader is tied with Luke as being the second most powerful being in the galaxy as of Return of The Jedi per its canon junior novel. This passage also comes before Yoda died. So it would scale Vader above Yoda in the force.
Vader is the right hand of the almighty Emperor. He is the second most powerful man in the galaxy. (p.139)
As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that Yoda as of the original trilogy was less powerful in the force than he was in ROTS. Physically, he was definitely weaker. But force wise, there is nothing to suggest a decline. Obi Wan is a good example to cement this point - as he is noted as having physically declined in the years following ROTS, but not in the force.
In fact, Yoda is being noted as having grown spiritually and having gained inner strength per the canon novel From A Certain Point of View: The Empire Strikes Back:
"In the past Yoda may have occasionally used his cane to trick students into believing he was frail, but now it had become a necessary tool to keep his footing in weaker moments. His fighting form, long behind him, replaced with even greater inner strength, enlightenment, and acceptance. Acceptance of his past mistakes and foolish assumptions. An acknowledgment of the swaying stream and his place within it." (p454)
As we saw earlier with Lords of The Sith, it was Vader's strengthened spirit which furthered his connection to the force - the same could follow for Yoda. The canon ESB prequel comic also remarks that Yoda has the power to "move mountains":
One could say this is hyperbole, but this is couteracted by the fact that pre TPM Yoda has actually lifted a mountain in canon in Jason Aaron's Star Wars #28:
This mountain feat proved immensely difficult for Yoda to achieve - so if ESB Yoda can indeed lift a mountain with the force, it would mean he can still perform feats which pushed the upper limits of his younger prime self's power. This would mean he didn't decline in the force.
We also have canon topps cards which refer to ESB/ROTJ Yoda as being 'powerful' - and clearly this isn't referring to his physical body:
They also refer to him as still being a 'master' of the force:
So even if you contest Vader above Yoda through Anakin scaling, we have direct scaling through the OT. Vader scales above him in the force and thus to the debris feat.
@frozen said:
@nassergrant19: Thanks. That's good, though I'd say its more relevant to heat. I don't think a saber would kill him. His TK can do the job - either externally or crush his internal organs.
If we take Ikaris's island feat at face value, then by the same token we should take Vader's accolades. The canon junior novel The Empire Strikes Back: So You Want to Be A Jedi states that Vader is more powerful than any star destroyer, including the executor (a far larger ISD). The wording is not very ambiguous either and rather literal:
Canon ISDs can vaporize cities, countries andeven shook a planet. Vader's AP in the force would scale above this.
As far as speed goes, 53 Jedi (including Yoda) in the canon High Republic novel Light of The Jedi were able to track debris travelling at near light speed:
Vader scales above Yoda in the force due to the fact that he scales BoD is pre suit self, who in turn was confirmed above Yoda in Skywalker Family at War and also the Revenge of The Sith junior novel, in which Yoda admits that Anakin is more powerful than himself.
Anakin's confirmed scaling above Yoda per Skywalker Family at War:
The junior novel statement, in which Yoda states Anakin is more powerful than biased and also any Jedi he has ever met. So not only is Anakin > Yoda in the force, but also scales above the jedi involved in he above feat (individually) who could track the debris.
"Premonitions were a rare talent for a Jedi, but not unknown. Yoda had searched the paths of the future himself on occasion. No one had done so deliberately in years, however; not since the dark side began to grow, making such foresight dangerous and unreliable. But Anakin was strong in the Force, stronger than any Jedi Yoda had known in all his hundreds of years. And he had not sought the visions, that much was clear, though he was reluctant to speak too plainly of whatever he had seen. Yoda nodded encouragingly." (Page 83)
The author of the novel has clarified with me that this refers to actualized power and encompasses Yoda himself in the statement:
Most recently, Secrets of the Sithwhich was released on 12th October 2021 details Palpatine's writings. In this book, Palpatine remarks that jedi Anakin as of ROTS had power that rivalled his own.
And or course, Vader's scaling above Anakin in the force is well documented:
5 years after ROTS, Vader was noted to have surpassed his pre suit self in the force per Lords of The Sith:
"Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black transparisteel of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force.Suffering had birthed insight." (p11)
Further confirmation of Vader becoming more powerful can be found in the canon DK reference book Jedi v Sith (2016), which reprinted quotes from Jedi Battles 2013 into Disney canon:
The canon 2015 book Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader establishes that his powers grew stronger over time - so this outright confirms linear growth:
We also have the 2017 figurine (Return of Anakin Skywalker) placing his prime as being ROTJ:
https://en.kotobukiya.co.jp/product/product-0000001288/
More powerful than ever before in the Force as well as mastery of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. Updated to match his appearance in Return of the Jedi, the fallen Jedi stands with his crimson lightsaber at the ready for both attack and defense
To further add, Vader is tied with Luke as being the second most powerful being in the galaxy as of Return of The Jedi per its canon junior novel. This passage also comes before Yoda died. So it would scale Vader above Yoda in the force.
Vader is the right hand of the almighty Emperor. He is the second most powerful man in the galaxy. (p.139)
As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that Yoda as of the original trilogy was less powerful in the force than he was in ROTS. Physically, he was definitely weaker. But force wise, there is nothing to suggest a decline. Obi Wan is a good example to cement this point - as he is noted as having physically declined in the years following ROTS, but not in the force.
In fact, Yoda is being noted as having grown spiritually and having gained inner strength per the canon novel From A Certain Point of View: The Empire Strikes Back:
"In the past Yoda may have occasionally used his cane to trick students into believing he was frail, but now it had become a necessary tool to keep his footing in weaker moments. His fighting form, long behind him, replaced with even greater inner strength, enlightenment, and acceptance. Acceptance of his past mistakes and foolish assumptions. An acknowledgment of the swaying stream and his place within it." (p454)
As we saw earlier with Lords of The Sith, it was Vader's strengthened spirit which furthered his connection to the force - the same could follow for Yoda. The canon ESB prequel comic also remarks that Yoda has the power to "move mountains":
One could say this is hyperbole, but this is couteracted by the fact that pre TPM Yoda has actually lifted a mountain in canon in Jason Aaron's Star Wars #28:
This mountain feat proved immensely difficult for Yoda to achieve - so if ESB Yoda can indeed lift a mountain with the force, it would mean he can still perform feats which pushed the upper limits of his younger prime self's power. This would mean he didn't decline in the force.
We also have canon topps cards which refer to ESB/ROTJ Yoda as being 'powerful' - and clearly this isn't referring to his physical body:
They also refer to him as still being a 'master' of the force:
So even if you contest Vader above Yoda through Anakin scaling, we have direct scaling through the OT. Vader scales above him in the force and thus to the debris feat.
Yeah, his AP is definitely beyond Ikaris’s island level bullrush. He’ll probably get higher tier feats in the future tho, it’s just his first film lol.
Vader definitely takes this then.
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