ICHIGO VS MELIODAS

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HitTheAssasin

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#151  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@kingguinness: The difference being that Meliodas' scaling is direct, with actual numbers and feats to back it up. Ichigo's just relies on assuming a bunch of stuff to scale him to characters he hasn't even interacted with.

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GXrevs06

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@gxrevs06 said:
@kingguinness said:

I have no idea why people are saying Meliodas stomps Ichigo when they have comparable feats.

Pretty much every top tier SDS characters physicals are scaled off of Galand's so the fact that people are saying EOS Ichigo relies on scaling are being hypocritical, since Meliodas follows that exact same logic.

Probably because the manga ending left a bad taste in a lot of peoples' mouths

That's not an excuse to be bias against them in vs battles though, lol.

Yh, I know. Just saying that people here often shit characters from shows they don't like and carry that bias into the debates

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KingGuinness

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@hittheassasin:

Ichigo's scaling isn't as concise as Meliodas's but it's solid if you use it correctly. Meliodas's scaling relies on power levels and other characters, Ichigo's relies on Bankai/Hollow Mask multipliers and other characters. Their scaling is actually quite similar when you think about it.

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HitTheAssasin

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@kingguinness: Ichigo's scaling isn't as concise as Meliodas's but it's solid if you use it correctly.

True, but the problem is that it's rarely ever used correctly.

Meliodas's scaling relies on power levels and other characters, Ichigo's relies on Bankai/Hollow Mask multipliers and other characters.

The difference being that physical power levels have been stated and shown to refer to....physical power. The Bankai multiplier refers to overall power, but certain people seem to think that it definitively gives a 5 to 10 times increase to every single stat of the user when that's clearly not the case. Just like Byakuya didn't magically get 5 times stronger or faster after using Kageyoshi, there's no proof Ichigo's raw physical strength or energy projection increased by that much, since his Bankai was explicitly stated to be something that exponentially increases his speed, not every single stat.

Their scaling is actually quite similar when you think about it.

Mel's scaling is far clearer and more consistent.

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GXrevs06

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@kingguinness: . Ichigo's just relies on assuming a bunch of stuff to scale him to characters he hasn't even interacted with.

Well, he's only really scalling to himself, though. EOS Ichigo now has access to all of his power, so he's stronger than Dangai and his V2 Hollow forms.

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HitTheAssasin

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@gxrevs06 said:
@hittheassasin said:

@kingguinness: . Ichigo's just relies on assuming a bunch of stuff to scale him to characters he hasn't even interacted with.

Well, he's only really scalling to himself, though. EOS Ichigo now has access to all of his power, so he's stronger than Dangai and his V2 Hollow forms.

If you scale to just those 2 forms, he's still fodder to Meliodas.

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LeoTheGreatest

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HitTheAssasin

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#158  Edited By HitTheAssasin
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LeoTheGreatest

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#159  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@hittheassasin:

I was going to be nice and scale Mel off your estimate but nvm I guess.

From what I've seen it should be in the 100s of megatons. And from scaling and feats Mel should be in the Multi-mountain/island range. So his out put should be well into the 1,000s but let's wank it to the 10,000s or you know what? Since Mel's a cool guy let's go ahead and wank it to the 100,000s.

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That's still more than a 1,000 times weaker than a casual swing from shikai Kenpachi (while still wearing his eyepatch).

Destroying this meteor would require 144,000,000 Megatons of force.

The meteor is 1/3 the size of the sereitei which has a diameter of roughly 1,569Km so the meteor would have a diameter of 523Km.

www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html

Mel is fodder to a casual shikai Kenpachi while Bankai Kenpachi Is fodder to Ichigo.

Even Mel's full counter is useless since Ichigo has always been faster than his Getsuga Tenshos.

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This is if Mel even managed to react to them , which he wouldn't.

Mel is no where near Ichigo in any category. This is spite.

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HitTheAssasin

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LeoTheGreatest

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KingGuinness

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@hittheassasin:

True, but the problem is that it's rarely ever used correctly.

That depends on the individual if anything. Some use it correctly, some wank the hell out of it. Same can be said for pretty much every fictional character.

The difference being that physical power levels have been stated and shown to refer to....physical power. The Bankai multiplier refers to overall power, but certain people seem to think that it definitively gives a 5 to 10 times increase to every single stat of the user when that's clearly not the case. Just like Byakuya didn't magically get 5 times stronger or faster after using Kageyoshi, there's no proof Ichigo's raw physical strength or energy projection increased by that much, since his Bankai was explicitly stated to be something that exponentially increases his speed, not every single stat.

Yes but it's never been stated what numbers of the overall physical power level apply to certain stats. For example, BoS Meliodas's physical power level is 960, correct? Well how much of that number is his speed? How much of that number is his strength? How much of that number is durability? To take it even further, current Meliodas's physical power is over 100x his BoS self, right? So what does that even mean? Does that mean he's 100x stronger, 100x faster and a 100x more durable? It's never been stated that an increase in total physical power means all of your individual stats are increased by the same factor. The only thing you can say with certainty is that they become drastically more powerful, but nothing concrete.

Mel's scaling is far clearer and more consistent.

Subjective, but i personally agree that it's more consistent so i guess it doesn't matter.

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HitTheAssasin

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#163  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@kingguinness: That depends on the individual if anything. Some use it correctly, some wank the hell out of it. Same can be said for pretty much every fictional character.

True, but in the case of Bleach, it's extra excessive.

Yes but it's never been stated what numbers of the overall physical power level apply to certain stats.

True. But usually, while it's never been explicitly stated, a significantly greater physical level translates to being greater in every aspect(see Meliodas vs Galan as an example). There a few exceptions to this rule, but those can be discerned simply by looking at their feats, which take precedence over power level scaling if they're contradictory.

For example, BoS Meliodas's physical power level is 960, correct? Well how much of that number is his speed? How much of that number is his strength? How much of that number is durability? To take it even further, current Meliodas's physical power is over 100x his BoS self, right? So what does that even mean? Does that mean he's 100x stronger, 100x faster and a 100x more durable?

No. Usually, I'd simply say it means he's massively superior to his BoS self in every way and not name a concrete number on how much, since t's redundant, unnecessary and imprecise. In other words, if BoS Meliodas were small mountain level, I think it would be safe to say AM Meliodas is multi-mountain level, since both feats and power level scaling back his incredible superiority to his BoS self. With pure power levels, I could push for island level, but there's no proof the increase was that drastic in just physical strength and feats don't back it either, so I desist from claiming that.

It's never been stated that an increase in total physical power means all of your individual stats are increased by the same factor.

No, and I agree it would be stupid to assume so.

The only thing you can say with certainty is that they become drastically more powerful, but nothing concrete.

Agreed, but that's not necessary if you use a combination of feats and scaling correctly, which is more than possible if you're knowledgable on the series.

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GXrevs06

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@gxrevs06 said:
@hittheassasin said:

@kingguinness: . Ichigo's just relies on assuming a bunch of stuff to scale him to characters he hasn't even interacted with.

Well, he's only really scalling to himself, though. EOS Ichigo now has access to all of his power, so he's stronger than Dangai and his V2 Hollow forms.

If you scale to just those 2 forms, he's still fodder to Meliodas.

How? I am one of Mel's biggest advocates but Ichigo is no where near fodder to him lol

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HitTheAssasin

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@gxrevs06: I'm saying, if all you scale current Ichigo to is V2 Hollow and Dangai, Meliodas will oneshot him. Just hypothetically.

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FaradaySloth

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@leothegreatest: not sure if this is correct but VS Battles say you need 100 megatons to 1 Gigaton

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jasonhitto

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Even bos meliodas stomp any version of ichigo

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Gilateen

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Meliodas

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FaradaySloth

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LeoTheGreatest

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@faradaysloth:

Oh I misunderstood what you were saying. But yeah I highballed the hell out of Meliodas a lot and he's still massively below Ichigo.

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EcoBlitz

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Bump

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deactivated-5c60dc252a2af

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You can wank Ichigo like hell and he'd still get stomped by Current Mel.

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TheBalance

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Ulquiorra saying GRC can destroy Las Noches is about the crappiest statement in anime history based on CV standards since its apparently not even city level. Base Ichigo kills Mel with a single slash. Honestly tho I've never truely seen a match on CV where EOS Ichigo has a challenge in just base. They're all disgusting mismatches that shouldn't even require him to raise his reiatsu above the subconscious level.

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Bayman007

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Meliodas

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TheBalance

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@hittheassasin:

I was going to be nice and scale Mel off your estimate but nvm I guess.

From what I've seen it should be in the 100s of megatons. And from scaling and feats Mel should be in the Multi-mountain/island range. So his out put should be well into the 1,000s but let's wank it to the 10,000s or you know what? Since Mel's a cool guy let's go ahead and wank it to the 100,000s.

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That's still more than a 1,000 times weaker than a casual swing from shikai Kenpachi (while still wearing his eyepatch).

Destroying this meteor would require 144,000,000 Megatons of force.

The meteor is 1/3 the size of the sereitei which has a diameter of roughly 1,569Km so the meteor would have a diameter of 523Km.

www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html

Mel is fodder to a casual shikai Kenpachi while Bankai Kenpachi Is fodder to Ichigo.

Even Mel's full counter is useless since Ichigo has always been faster than his Getsuga Tenshos.

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This is if Mel even managed to react to them , which he wouldn't.

Mel is no where near Ichigo in any category. This is spite.

The thing about this interesting analysis of power is that Kenny destroying that meteor isn't a good power indication since thats literally just the result of his physical strength. Kenpachi is physically the strongest shinigami so that feat would be exclusive to him because hardly any would have that range, however, since thats just his raw physicals, that is merely a very small fraction of what he's capable of in his sealed shikai. Kenpachi's bankai should still be inferior to base Ichigo. This is a terrible mismatch. Put Ichigo against all the SDS cast simultaneously and he still stomps them in base.

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WorldofRuin6

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Mel oneshots with 1000 divine slices.

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SkySanji

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Mel oneshots with 1000 divine slices.

So he doesn't oneshot?

Anyway Meliodas still stomps

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WorldofRuin6

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@skysanji: Technically he doesn't one-shot, but he kills Ichigo with one attack like atomic samurai's atomic slash.

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SkySanji

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Gaoron

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Ichi still wins, Mel needs some feats or better scaling to compete.

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iUseMyCajonas

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#184  Edited By iUseMyCajonas

Bro am I missing something? Ichigo stomps.

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TheBalance

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@leothegreatest: the physical strength I'm referring to is actual muscle strength. The more reiatsu one possess the the greater the impact of their strikes, not the force of their swings. Toshiro froze Gerard's sword and the bonds of reishi became brittle and it broke with a slash. Kenpachi was the strength potential because he is the most physically capable character in Bleach. What slashed that giant meteor was the air pressure of his swing that was caused by a massive force of him swinging his huge blade with tremendous strength. He could physically lift alot more than Ichigo can ever hope to, but cannot parry a strike from him, based on the difference in actual power, his sword would either completely shatter or he'd be sent flying. When Kaname effortlessly stopped Komamura's bankai, that was a show of reiatsu superiority since he said his hollowfication would surpass the boost of a bankai so naturally he has the greater reiatsu, but none of his sword swings can be as destructive as Komamura's or cause such wide range damage with just shockwaves, because the literal force behind it is only as much as his muscle strength can produce. Jidanbo was unable to even shift shikai Ichigo while he wasn't even trying yet he showed massively superior physical strength by lifting the gates, something that Ichigo was incapable of doing. Grimmjow was creating shockwaves that travelled for miles, Ichigo hasn't shown anything like that yet he could parry his strikes and fight evenly with him, even R2 Ulquiorra wasn't doing that, but it's very certain who's actually superior. Meninas being sternritter "P" the power, would mean her schrift grants her immense physical strength. That would likely equate to her being the most physically capable sternritter with physical strength beyond any other quincy. Yet all that superior strength would be laughed at by superior reiatsu. Which other quincy have you seen with lifting feats on her level? Aizen being surprised that "his" strength was capable of erasing a few crags wasn't him thinking he wasn't powerful enough to, he just didn't swing his sword with the force necessary to make such a shockwave so he was surprised "his" meager swing could do that. There are endless scenarios that explains that one's physical strength is different from one's reiatsu. I'm not being rude but it's embarrassing to see the fan base unable to even figure that out.

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WorldofRuin6

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@gaoron: lol. Like Ichigo's "scaling".

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Gaoron

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#187  Edited By Gaoron

@worldofruin6: Huh? Ichigo has better scaling than Mel, from Kenpachi meteor feat. Feat wise Ichigo dangai feats are better aswell imo, Mel has better DC feat with his darkness aoe tho. Plus Ichi is a tier faster.

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WorldofRuin6

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@gaoron said:

@worldofruin6: Huh? Ichigo has better scaling than Mel, from Kenpachi meteor feat. Feat wise Ichigo dangai feats are better aswell imo, Mel has better DC feat with his darkness aoe tho. Plus Ichi is a tier faster.

Ichigo doesn't scale to Kenpachi's feat. Reiatsu does not scale every stat linearly. Dangai Ichigo vaped a small hill. Mel one-shot a stronger version of Escanor than the one that nosold a mountain busting attack from Galand. AM Mel has way better physical strength than Dangai Ichigo. Ichigo is around Mel's speed IMO, or maybe slightly faster, but an entire tier?

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FaradaySloth

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Ichigo wins solidly. Vastly Superior in Combat speed. Way too strong. AP is pretty insane if you think about it. Was pretty much at the epicenter of an island+ feat.

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Gaoron

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@worldofruin6: Not every stat but reiatsu scales attack potency and durability. If Ichigo has higher reiatsu than Kenny then his AP and durability is higher aswell. Galan never destroyed a mountain, it was a hill just like Ichigo one, difference is Ichigo did that with casual air pressure of his parry and completely vaporized it which would take much more energy than simply crushing/destroying it like Galan did.

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TheEmperor95

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@hittheassasin: in your post you literally say the scaling used for bleach doesn't work but you use it for meliodas??

You say bleach characters don't get a boost to all stats from a bankai release even though it's never stated they don't but at the same time say that meliodas is stronger than his BoS self in every stat because his power level is higher even though power level isn't stated to increase all stats

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Hope_w

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I'm sorry what.....? ICHIGO (the guy from bleach right?)having better COMBAT SPEED than Meliodas? The guy whose reasonably calc'd at microsecond timing without any sort of scaling needed? My god the bleach fan base it's utterly and virtually cancerous.

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Yox

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Ichigo still one shots mel. Due to scaling to kenpachi & his country lvl feat.....

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LeoTheGreatest

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#194  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@thebalance:

Gerard's blade was only frozen after toshiro cut it in half and gerards sword wasn't a Reishi sword. The physical strength issue was already addressed in kenpachis fight with Ichigo the moment ichigo matched him in power he matched him in physical strength currently Ichigo dwarfs him in power so he also dwarfs him in physical strength. The only thing that wasn't completely addressed was lifting strength.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@hittheassasin: in your post you literally say the scaling used for bleach doesn't work but you use it for meliodas??

You say bleach characters don't get a boost to all stats from a bankai release even though it's never stated they don't but at the same time say that meliodas is stronger than his BoS self in every stat because his power level is higher even though power level isn't stated to increase all stats

You'll see this happen a lot in these threads

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universeichigo1

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Since base shikai is at par with FGT ichigo i would say that would give meliodas a solid fight but when ichigo does shikai it becomes a mismatch.

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EcoBlitz

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@theemperor95: there is a specific stat for physical in NNT.... his is much much much higher than his BoD self. Exactly what is your argument??

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TheEmperor95

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@ecoblitz: stats like durability, endurance, striking strength or lifting strength, reaction speed, travel speed, etc none of these are stated to be improved through their numbers getting higher. Only 3 areas are stated for a power level so to say every single stats gets raised can't be proven just because of a number increase

P.s I know they do increase but to say it doesn't work for bleach but does for SDS is pretty bias.

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TheBalance

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@leothegreatest: but listen to yourself. Lifting strength has to do with the strength of someone's muscles. I'm saying, despite Ichigo's lesser physical strength he can easily overwhelm Kenpachi in a clash of blades because his power dwarfs Kenny's reiatsu coupled with his strength. The thing is, Ichigo cannot create powerful shockwaves with that kind of range because those are formed from the actual force generated from one's swing and not the reiatsu. Scaling Ichigo from that feat is correct but he wouldn't be able to perform it. That feat however is a downplay since that force is only generated from the physical force behind a swing. For example, if both Kenpachi and Ichigo were told to destroy some type of seki seki rock that repels spirit energy, Kenpachi would do far greater damage to it because his strength exceeds Ichigo's by unfathomable degrees. So if they should have their reiatsu sealed off, Kenpachi's power would still be at the level of busting the meteor since that's just his physical capabilities and that pales in comparison to his actual power. Toshiro cutting Gerard's blade would neither fall under spiritual pressure nor physical strength, because to do that his strength would have to be at degrees I can't say on CV as I'd be called a massive wanker or his reiatsu would have to be beyond Kenpachi's shikai and he has neither of those stats. What caused him to break Gerard's sword and shield is his freezing ability and that's that. What caused Kenpachi to nick Gerard's blade was not his physical strength, but his incredible reiatsu which is a number with a bunch of zeros times his physical strength. Look at Renji vs Jackie, can Renji tap his foot and bring down multiple building sized structures? Has Renji ever swung his sword and destroy said structures with just a shockwave? That hilt attack to Jackie's stomach was likely alot more powerful than her kicks because he has far greater reiatsu and almost anything he does to her would like have greater power regardless of how much he's holding back. It certainly didn't have as much force, but the reiatsu more than compensates for it.

A shinigami can have issues lifting a 300lb rock but can slap away an accelerating 5000lb sword with their zanpakuto. Reiatsu=/Physical strength.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@thebalance:

The thing is, Ichigo cannot create powerful shockwaves with that kind of range because those are formed from the actual force generated from one's swing and not the reiatsu.

Come again?

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"I'm not being rude" but are you reading the right manga? Ichigo doesn't lack in raw physicals.

And again Toshiro froze the blade after he cut it not beforehand meaning he's above Shikai Kenpachi.

The rest of you're essay doesn't hold up. Kenpachi doesn't have any feat without the use of his Reiatsu, it's literally everyone's source of power.