Ichigo vs. Ichibei

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PhantomRant

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Timeline: Thousand Year Blood War arc

Distance: 10 meters

Ichigo is at full power, he starts in Bankai and is fused with his Hollow.

Ichibei starts in Bankai.

Can Ichigo speedblitz him before Ichibei can swing his brush and take away all his powers?

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Vertigo-

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Either Ichigo gets plot and wins, or Ichibei fodderizes by just taking his powers away

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grappolo

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Ichibei is the strongest shinigami, ichigo can probably keep up with his speed but he has no counter for ichimonji's hax.

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PhantomRant

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#4  Edited By PhantomRant

@grappolo said:

Ichibei is the strongest shinigami, ichigo can probably keep up with his speed but he has no counter for ichimonji's hax.

so ichigo can't blitz and one-shot him b4 he does dat?

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DRdaddy

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Ichigo dies

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HukO

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#6  Edited By HukO  Online

Stats wise Ichigo is best when it comes shinigami dudes

But Ichibei has comparable stats + one of most deadliest hax hst ever witnessed

+ Experience

Ichibei wins

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LeoTheGreatest

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Ichibei is weaker than Base Almighty Yhwach while Ichigo rivaled Mimihagi + Soul King absorbed Yhwach in his Shikai HoS alone, how is this a question when it comes to stats?

Ichigo either bliztes and oneshots or straight up just Soul Crushes Ichibei. The only chance Ichibei has is if Ichigo just stands there doesn’t Soul Crush him and let’s him use Ichimoji.

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DRdaddy

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@leothegreatest: the fact that ichigos whole thing is BLACK ichigo will die

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LeoTheGreatest

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@drdaddy:

Ichibei can’t react to him, match his power or resist a Soul Crush.

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JoshTaku

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People forgetting that bleach is all about reiatsu. I doubt if Ichibei's hax would even work given the gap between him and ichibei's spritual pressure.

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Wot_m8

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Without Ichigo's plot armor, Ichibe stomps.

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CyberBlades22

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#12  Edited By CyberBlades22

Ichigo should win

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silentNightz

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Ichibei can't handle merged Hollow Ichigo in Bankai, even with his hax. At that point, Ichigo's power transcends transcendence and jumps over the god tier. Whatever he can do, it was so powerful that Yhwach didn't even want to start a battle with him and he was literally the whole god-tier at that point. Ichigo 1000/10.

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ThousandSteps

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TheEmperor95

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Ichibei bodies ichigo. Ichigo has more raw power but he gets destroyed in hax

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NarutoUzumakiMedakaKurokami

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Ichibei just throw Ichigo like rag doll to death.

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AnimeFreak1

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@wot_m8 said:

Without Ichigo's plot armor, Ichibe stomps.

Ichibei just throw Ichigo like rag doll to death.

This

Logically Ichigo wins

But Ichibei has much better feats

Answer might change with Anime Ichigo's feats

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MrViking

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By statemants , and scaling , Ichibe woudnt even survive being near a serius Ichigo , since Ichigo's reatsu scales to Ywach's and Aizen's. Hax is on Ichibe's side , but everything else is on the other side. Ichigo 10/10 if he serius , if not and try to hold back then 5/10.

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MattyBoi

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Ichigo.

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King789

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Ichigo claps.

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Revold

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#21  Edited By Revold

@leothegreatest said:

Ichigo rivaled Mimihagi + Soul King absorbed Yhwach

He didn't "rival" anything, in fact Yhwach held back Almighty until he activated Bankai, and then it's a one-sided stomp.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@revold:

He didn't "rival" anything, in fact Yhwach held back Almighty until he activated Bankai, and then it's a one-sided stomp.

You reading the right manga? Yhwach blatantly admitted Shikai HoS Ichigo could have killed him if he didn’t activate the Almighty and then used the hax to beat Ichigo.

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Revold

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@leothegreatest: That just means he can threaten non-Almighty Yhwach. SK Yhwach still stomps him

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citgo

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@vertigo- said:

Either Ichigo gets plot and wins, or Ichibei fodderizes by just taking his powers away

this^^^

either

that

Ichibei is weaker than Base Almighty Yhwach while Ichigo rivaled Mimihagi + Soul King absorbed Yhwach in his Shikai HoS alone, how is this a question when it comes to stats?

Ichigo either bliztes and oneshots or straight up just Soul Crushes Ichibei. The only chance Ichibei has is if Ichigo just stands there doesn’t Soul Crush him and let’s him use Ichimoji.

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Kingxix

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@revold: Yhwach was trolling ichigo throughout their fight and when yhwach was content enough he one shots ichigo.

Ichigo is nowhere close to yhwach.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@revold:

That just means he can threaten non-Almighty Yhwach. SK Yhwach still stomps him

SK Yhwach is the Yhwach that claimed Ichigo was going to kill him until he used the Almighty.

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BrownZeus

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#27  Edited By BrownZeus

@leothegreatest: To be honest would not take that statement with a grain of salt. Yhwach was nonchalantly beating Ichigo witha smile on his face. Yhwach was constantly taking the piss on Ichigo all the way until Yhwach activated the Allmigthy. I say Bankai Ichigo is on a equal playing field against a Non-Allmigthy Yhwach if not then superior by a hair's breath.

Regardless however that is enough to destroy Ichibei.

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Wanderez

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#28  Edited By Wanderez

>Yhwach gets bisected by Ichigo twice

>Ichigo is nowhere close to Yhwach

No Caption Provided

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ThousandSteps

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Ichigo would still be more powerful even if he got his name cut in half.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#30  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@brownzeus:

Ichigo wasn‘t using his full power throughout the fight and was still impressing and nearly bisected Yhwach then Yhwach realized he shouldn’t be underestimating Shikai HoS Ichigo’s true power and admitted Ichigo could kill him if not for the Almighty, then he activated the Almighty and said that window of opportunity was closed and continued to praise Ichigo’s power. The fact he continued his statements after activating the Almighty and seeing all possibilities confirms that Shikai HoS Ichigo would have killed him let alone his Bankai HoS.

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Revold

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@wanderez said:

>Yhwach gets bisected by Ichigo twice

>Ichigo is nowhere close to Yhwach

The second one was not even remotely relevant since his powers were removed by the arrow.

Even the first one he had help from Aizen, otherwise he wouldn't even had a chance to touch him. And even then, Yhwach revived himself so why would this even matter.

Still doesn't make Ichigo "rival" Yhwach in any sense of the word. At most it means that Ichigo's sword has greater reiatsu than Yhwach's passive reiatsu to allow him to get cut.

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Revold

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SK Yhwach is the Yhwach that claimed Ichigo was going to kill him until he used the Almighty.

That makes 0 sense. Instead of Almighty, what if Yhwach say he could die if he stand still? Do you compare the Yhwach who said it, or the Yhwach who he is talking about?

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Earendill

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#33  Edited By Earendill

Ichibei stomps, mismatch.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@revold:

That makes 0 sense. Instead of Almighty, what if Yhwach say he could die if he stand still? Do you compare the Yhwach who said it, or the Yhwach who he is talking about?

What?

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Wanderez

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#35  Edited By Wanderez

@revold:

The fact that Yhwach said Ichigo's Bankai is fearsome should speak volumes, this, and the fact that he destroyed it immediately via the Almighty. Also, both times Ichigo bisected Yhwach were legit. Aizen helped Ichigo get around Yhwach's hax, however he didnt help with the bisection, that was all Ichigo. The second time around Yhwach still had his powers, not only does Uryu notice it, but Yhwach also breaks Ichigo's Bankai again.

It is worth mentioning that Ichigo was injured and exhausted both times he bisected Yhwach.

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Revold

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#36  Edited By Revold

@leothegreatest said:

What?

Yhwach said Non-Almighty Yhwach could possibly die against HoS Shikai Ichigo.

Therefore, you can at most say HoS Shikai Ichigo rivals Non-Almighty Yhwach. But this is irrelevant, because Ichibei trumps Non-Almighty Yhwach, and only loses to Almighty Yhwach.

This does not mean that Bankai Ichigo rivals Almighty Yhwach (in fact Ichigo got one shotted). True Yhwach activated Almighty while Ichigo was still in Shikai, but he could've bissected his blade just as easily, if not easier since it's a weaker form. But he didn't, meaning he was still holding back, still playing around with him.

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Revold

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#37  Edited By Revold

@wanderez said:

@revold:

The fact that Yhwach said Ichigo's Bankai is fearsome should speak volumes, this, and the fact that he destroyed it immediately via the Almighty. Also, both times Ichigo bisected Yhwach were legit. Aizen helped Ichigo get around Yhwach's hax, however he didnt help with the bisection, that was all Ichigo. The second time around Yhwach still had his powers, not only does Uryu notice it, but Yhwach also breaks Ichigo's Bankai again.

It is worth mentioning that Ichigo was injured and exhausted both times he bisected Yhwach.

Just because a weaker Yhwach beat Ichibei, doesn't mean the stronger Yhwach don't have to be just as serious against Ichibei as he did against Ichigo.

So the mere act of bisecting Yhwach proves what exactly? It simply proves that he has enough reiatsu in his blade to overpower Yhwach's passive reiatsu. It doesn't prove that he rivals Yhwach, and certainly doesn't prove that he can beat Ichibei.

The second time when the blade cuts, Yhwach powers were already gone. Also, Yhwach never broke Ichigo's Bankai again, that was just Aizen's illusions.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@revold:

The Yhwach that faced Ichibei was base Yhwach the Yhwach that faced Ichigo was the Mimihagi + Soul King absorbed “SK” Yhwach. SK Yhwach dwarfs the Yhwach that faced Ichibei and blatantly admitted Ichigo was going to kill him with just his Shikai HoS.

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Wanderez

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@revold:

The Yhwach that faced Ichibei was base Yhwach the Yhwach that faced Ichigo was the Mimihagi + Soul King absorbed “SK” Yhwach. SK Yhwach dwarfs the Yhwach that faced Ichibei and blatantly admitted Ichigo was going to kill him with just his Shikai HoS.

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Revold

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@wanderez said:
@leothegreatest said:

@revold:

The Yhwach that faced Ichibei was base Yhwach the Yhwach that faced Ichigo was the Mimihagi + Soul King absorbed “SK” Yhwach. SK Yhwach dwarfs the Yhwach that faced Ichibei and blatantly admitted Ichigo was going to kill him with just his Shikai HoS.

Firstly, he wasn't going to kill him for sure. He could kill him in a possible future, which is enough to make Yhwach stop playing around.

Secondly, just because Ichibei faced a weaker Yhwach, doesn't mean that he pose less of a threat to the stronger Yhwach compared to Ichigo.

Thirdly, ABC logic doesn't really work. Almighty power negation hard counters Ichibei's powers but not Ichigo's physical attacks. That doesn't mean Ichigo will win against Ichibei in a fight.

Fourthly, just because Ichigo might kill Yhwach in a possible future, doesn't mean he alone can accomplish the feat. As you can see, Ichigo got alot of help from Aizen and Uryu etc and still managed to kill him. And Yhwach still had to take all those possibilities into consideration. Meanwhile Ichibei had no outside help so that's not a fair comparison anyway.

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DRdaddy

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LeoTheGreatest

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#43  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@revold:

Firstly, he wasn't going to kill him for sure. He could kill him in a possible future, which is enough to make Yhwach stop playing around.

No he was going to defeat him for sure.

And Yhwach confirmed it by directly stating Ichigo’s power is so great he must use the Almighty while using the Almighty, meaning he saw all possible futures and literally said he in fact needs it to oppose Ichigo’s power.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Secondly, just because Ichibei faced a weaker Yhwach, doesn't mean that he pose less of a threat to the stronger Yhwach compared to Ichigo.

That‘s exactly what that means.

Thirdly, ABC logic doesn't really work. Almighty power negation hard counters Ichibei's powers but not Ichigo's physical attacks. That doesn't mean Ichigo will win against Ichibei in a fight.

Ichibei is weaker than Base Almighty Yhwach who‘s weaker than Mimihagi absorbed Yhwach who is much weaker than Soul King absorbed Yhwach who is weaker than HoS Ichigo.

This means that Ichibei can’t survive any attack from Ichigo. This means Ichibei can’t perceive Ichigo. This means Ichibei can’t even withstand a Soul Crush from Ichigo.

Fourthly, just because Ichigo might kill Yhwach in a possible future, doesn't mean he alone can accomplish the feat. As you can see, Ichigo got alot of help from Aizen and Uryu etc and still managed to kill him. And Yhwach still had to take all those possibilities into consideration. Meanwhile Ichibei had no outside help so that's not a fair comparison anyway.

Yhwach blatantly admitted Ichigo can in fact accomplish the feat himself. The problem with taking down Ywach lies in the use of the Almighty.

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Revold

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#44  Edited By Revold

@leothegreatest said:

@revold:

Firstly, he wasn't going to kill him for sure. He could kill him in a possible future, which is enough to make Yhwach stop playing around.

No he was going to defeat him for sure.

And Yhwach confirmed it by directly stating Ichigo’s power is so great he must use the Almighty while using the Almighty, meaning he saw all possible futures and literally said he in fact needs it to oppose Ichigo’s power.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

No Caption Provided

Your link doesn't show anything.

In fact, it shows Yhwach straight up tanking Ichigo's strongest attack, Grand Ray Cero + Getsuga, and still asking for more.

Ichigo was not very comfortable with what's going on either. Yet, you seem to be more confident than Ichigo himself in defeating Yhwach.

No Caption Provided

Secondly, who says that Yhwach will only activate Almighty if Ichigo kills him in all possible futures?? Yes, Yhwach can see all possible futures, but as long as he see one possible future where he gets defeated, that's enough reason for him to use Almighty don't you think?

And the page here didn't say he will lose in all possible future. It just says Ichigo is powerful enough so he must "always be on guard", aka he must always keep Almighty on.

Also, since he's using the Almighty, he's probably looking at Bankai Ichigo. This also make sense why Yhwach would break his blade the moment he turn Bankai, but didn't do the same while he was still in Shikai.

Secondly, just because Ichibei faced a weaker Yhwach, doesn't mean that he pose less of a threat to the stronger Yhwach compared to Ichigo.

That‘s exactly what that means.

Thirdly, ABC logic doesn't really work. Almighty power negation hard counters Ichibei's powers but not Ichigo's physical attacks. That doesn't mean Ichigo will win against Ichibei in a fight.

Ichibei is weaker than Base Almighty Yhwach who‘s weaker than Mimihagi absorbed Yhwach who is much weaker than Soul King absorbed Yhwach who is weaker than HoS Ichigo.

This means that Ichibei can’t survive any attack from Ichigo. This means Ichibei can’t perceive Ichigo. This means Ichibei can’t even withstand a Soul Crush from Ichigo.

Fourthly, just because Ichigo might kill Yhwach in a possible future, doesn't mean he alone can accomplish the feat. As you can see, Ichigo got alot of help from Aizen and Uryu etc and still managed to kill him. And Yhwach still had to take all those possibilities into consideration. Meanwhile Ichibei had no outside help so that's not a fair comparison anyway.

Yhwach blatantly admitted Ichigo can in fact accomplish the feat himself. The problem with taking down Ywach lies in the use of the Almighty.

For both Non-Almighty versions:

  • Ichibei stomps non-SK version all by himself
  • Bankai Ichigo can possibly kill SK version (possibly with outside help), but Shikai Ichigo's strongest attack was not enough against SK version

So as you can see, this still doesn't prove that Bankai Ichigo beats Ichibei, even with the flawed ABC logic.

Yhwach admitted that Ichigo can kill him, and that's enough reason to use the Almighty already. Yhwach literally couldn't care less if Ichigo did it with or without outside help. To make matters worse, he literally did had outside help against Yhwach. He had Orihime, Aizen, Uryu etc.

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GohanDorado

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Ichigo's only hope is that his reiatsu level is high enough to nullify Ichibe's powers.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#46  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@revold:

In fact, it shows Yhwach straight up tanking Ichigo's strongest attack, Grand Ray Cero + Getsuga, and still asking for more.

He asked for more because he knew Ichigo was holding back and then acknowledged the power Ichigo had was enough to kill him which he admitted...

And if it weren‘t for his new endurance and regeneration that GRC Getsuga would have been enough.

Ichigo was not very comfortable with what's going on either. Yet, you seem to be more confident than Ichigo himself in defeating Yhwach

What kind of argument is this? Being serious in battle now determines how confident people are is that they’ll win?

Not only did was Yhwach already using the Almighty in that scan but if you continued reading Ichigo was still confident he could win when he went into Bankai.

Secondly, who says that Yhwach will only activate Almighty if Ichigo kills him in all possible futures?? Yes, Yhwach can see all possible futures, but as long as he see one possible future where he gets defeated, that's enough reason for him to use Almighty don't you think?

While looking at all possible futures he said Ichigo’s power is so great that he needs The Almighty meaning that in the majority of futures Ichigo killed Yhwach.

And the page here didn't say he will lose in all possible future. It just says Ichigo is powerful enough so he must "always be on guard", aka he must always keep Almighty on.

Yeah he said that as he was looking at all the possible scenarios..

Also, since he's using the Almighty, he's probably looking at Bankai Ichigo. This also make sense why Yhwach would break his blade the moment he turn Bankai, but didn't do the same while he was still in Shikai.

He specified that it was Shikai Ichigo’s HoS power not his Bankai.

Ichibei stomps non-SK version all by himself

Bankai Ichigo can possibly kill SK version (possibly with outside help), but Shikai Ichigo's strongest attack was not enough against SK version

So as you can see, this still doesn't prove that Bankai Ichigo beats Ichibei, even with the flawed ABC logic.

What? Ichibei got beat by Base Almighty Yhwach. Yhwach then got massively stronger and admitted Shikai HoS Ichigo was going to kill him.

Yhwach admitted that Ichigo can kill him, and that's enough reason to use the Almighty already. Yhwach literally couldn't care less if Ichigo did it with or without outside help. To make matters worse, he literally did had outside help against Yhwach. He had Orihime, Aizen, Uryu etc.

What are you talking about? Ichigo sent Orihime away when he started using his HoS and went 1 on 1 with Yhwach and that’s when Yhwatch stated while looking at all possible futures that Ichigo himself was going to kill him and that his power is so great he needs the Almighty. Everything after that doesn’t coincide with those statements regarding Ichigo’s power.

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Revold

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#47  Edited By Revold

@leothegreatest said:

@revold:

In fact, it shows Yhwach straight up tanking Ichigo's strongest attack, Grand Ray Cero + Getsuga, and still asking for more.

He asked for more because he knew Ichigo was holding back and then acknowledged the power Ichigo had was enough to kill him which he admitted...

And if it weren‘t for his new endurance and regeneration that GRC Getsuga would have been enough.

You don't say??? OF COURSE it's because of his endurance and regeneration. What else could it be??

He tanked Ichigo's strongest attack fair and square. Shikai Ichigo was never stronger than SK Yhwach so deal with it.

The power he acknowledge was Bankai Ichigo, which Ichigo could activate at any time.

Ichigo was not very comfortable with what's going on either. Yet, you seem to be more confident than Ichigo himself in defeating Yhwach

What kind of argument is this? Being serious in battle now determines how confident people are is that they’ll win?

Not only did was Yhwach already using the Almighty in that scan but if you continued reading Ichigo was still confident he could win when he went into Bankai.

Secondly, who says that Yhwach will only activate Almighty if Ichigo kills him in all possible futures?? Yes, Yhwach can see all possible futures, but as long as he see one possible future where he gets defeated, that's enough reason for him to use Almighty don't you think?

While looking at all possible futures he said Ichigo’s power is so great that he needs The Almighty meaning that in the majority of futures Ichigo killed Yhwach.

I disagree. As long as there is 1% chance of him dying, I'm sure Yhwach is more than happy to use The Almighty. Why wouldn't he? Why would he take the risk when he wouldn't need to?

And the page here didn't say he will lose in all possible future. It just says Ichigo is powerful enough so he must "always be on guard", aka he must always keep Almighty on.

Yeah he said that as he was looking at all the possible scenarios..

Also, since he's using the Almighty, he's probably looking at Bankai Ichigo. This also make sense why Yhwach would break his blade the moment he turn Bankai, but didn't do the same while he was still in Shikai.

He specified that it was Shikai Ichigo’s HoS power not his Bankai.

HoS power can be either Bankai or Shikai. We already saw him tanking Shikai's attack so it doesn't even make sense. But even if it really is Shikai, it still doesn't mean Bankai is stronger than SK Yhwach.

Ichibei stomps non-SK version all by himself

Bankai Ichigo can possibly kill SK version (possibly with outside help), but Shikai Ichigo's strongest attack was not enough against SK version

So as you can see, this still doesn't prove that Bankai Ichigo beats Ichibei, even with the flawed ABC logic.

What? Ichibei got beat by Base Almighty Yhwach. Yhwach then got massively stronger and admitted Shikai HoS Ichigo was going to kill him.

I said for Non-Almighty Yhwachs. Go reread my post and don't exclude it in your quote again.

Yhwach admitted that Ichigo can kill him, and that's enough reason to use the Almighty already. Yhwach literally couldn't care less if Ichigo did it with or without outside help. To make matters worse, he literally did had outside help against Yhwach. He had Orihime, Aizen, Uryu etc.

What are you talking about? Ichigo sent Orihime away when he started using his HoS and went 1 on 1 with Yhwach and that’s when Yhwatch stated while looking at all possible futures that Ichigo himself was going to kill him and that his power is so great he needs the Almighty. Everything after that doesn’t coincide with those statements regarding Ichigo’s power.

He needs Almighty to beat Ichibei too, so your point?

Of all the possible futures, Yhwach definitely need to defend himself against the possibility that Ichigo will kill him with outside help. And we know that such possible future exist because he did end up getting outside help.

Able to kill him =/= rival him. For example, a poisonous spider might be able to kill you, but if you're on guard and not let it bite you, the spider probably stand no chance against you.

However, the poisonous spider ability to kill you is still very commendable, which is why Yhwach commended on it. If by some chance another human were to hold you still to let the spider get a chance to bite you, then you can still die. So the logical thing to do is to kill the spider while you can to eliminate that possibility.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#48  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@revold:

You don't say??? OF COURSE it's because of his endurance and regeneration. What else could it be??

He tanked Ichigo's strongest attack fair and square. Shikai Ichigo was never stronger than SK Yhwach so deal with it.

That’s not tanking.. Ichigo’s attack while he was still holding back almost bisected Yhwach.

The power he acknowledge was Bankai Ichigo, which Ichigo could activate at any time.

He again, specifically said it was Shikai Ichigo’s Horn of Salvation power not his Bakai.

No Caption Provided

I disagree. As long as there is 1% chance of him dying, I'm sure Yhwach is more than happy to use The Almighty. Why wouldn't he? Why would he take the risk when he wouldn't need to?

That’s not an argument. He refused to use it for the first half of the fight despite being impressed Ichigo’s power several times.

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Then after he used the Almighty he again said he needed it to oppose Ichigo’s power which would mean he would’ve gotten beaten in most futures and not just 1% because if it were 1% he wouldn’t need it now would he?

HoS power can be either Bankai or Shikai. We already saw him tanking Shikai's attack so it doesn't even make sense. But even if it really is Shikai, it still doesn't mean Bankai is stronger than SK Yhwach.

No it can not be either Shikai or Bankai because Ichigo was in his Shikai and he praised his Shikai. And again getting nearly bisected isn’t “tanking” something.

I said for Non-Almighty Yhwachs. Go reread my post and don't exclude it in your quote again.

You literally quoted me quoting your complete post.

A much stronger Yhwach admitted Ichigo was stronger than the Yhwach that defeated Ichibei. This isn’t hard to grasp. SK Yhwach is stronger than the Base Almighty Yhwach that fought Ichibei.

He needs Almighty to beat Ichibei too, so your point?

SK Yhwach doesn’t need the Almighty to blitz and oneshot or straight up Soul Crush Ichibei.

Of all the possible futures, Yhwach definitely need to defend himself against the possibility that Ichigo will kill him with outside help. And we know that such possible future exist because he did end up getting outside help.

This is just blatant headcanon at this point. He was referring directly to Ichigo’s power by himself and that had nothing to do with outside help because as shown when he got that help Yhwach wasn’t expecting that yet.

Able to kill him =/= rival him. For example, a poisonous spider might be able to kill you, but if you're on guard and not let it bite you, the spider probably stand no chance against you.

However, the poisonous spider ability to kill you is still very commendable, which is why Yhwach commended on it. If by some chance another human were to hold you still to let the spider get a chance to bite you, then you can still die. So the logical thing to do is to kill the spider while you can to eliminate that possibility.

  1. Ichigo shares no qualities with a spider which uses poison to overcome a strength difference. He has no extra ability that Yhwach‘s power wouldn’t be able to overcome.
  2. Yhwach directly referred to Ichigo’s power.

Ichigo blatantly rivals and by Yhwach’s own words can overpower him with his HoS Shikai.

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Revold

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#49  Edited By Revold

@leothegreatest said:

@revold:

You don't say??? OF COURSE it's because of his endurance and regeneration. What else could it be??

He tanked Ichigo's strongest attack fair and square. Shikai Ichigo was never stronger than SK Yhwach so deal with it.

That’s not tanking.. Ichigo’s attack while he was still holding back almost bisected Yhwach.

"Almost bisected" bruh that's a super biased way to describe it. I mean sure, he did cut him at least. But Yhwach doesn't look least bit affected by it so that just means he has enough reiatsu to overpower Yhwach's passive reiatsu. Getting one lucky hit that doesn't even do anything significant doesn't mean he "rivals" him.

And hey, that was his one chance he took Yhwach off guard with his new attack. And it's not like he could spam it. So call it "almost bisected" or "he only survived due to his endurance" (bruh), ask anyone who read that chapter and I'm sure most will think Yhwach had the upper hand right there. (even without Almighty)

The power he acknowledge was Bankai Ichigo, which Ichigo could activate at any time.

He again, specifically said it was Shikai Ichigo’s Horn of Salvation power not his Bakai.

Shikai or Bankai, it is still "power when fused with a hollow". Are you suggesting that once Ichigo goes Bankai, he loses his "power when fused with a hollow"??

Or instead of Bankai, do you prefer "Bankai Ichigo's Horn of Salvation power"??

You yourself said right above that Ichigo was holding back. Yhwach also knew that, especially when he has the Almighty.

I disagree. As long as there is 1% chance of him dying, I'm sure Yhwach is more than happy to use The Almighty. Why wouldn't he? Why would he take the risk when he wouldn't need to?

That’s not an argument. He refused to use it for the first half of the fight despite being impressed Ichigo’s power several times.

Then after he used the Almighty he again said he needed it to oppose Ichigo’s power which would mean he would’ve gotten beaten in most futures and not just 1% because if it were 1% he wouldn’t need it now would he?

1. He refused to use it for the first half, so what?? You do realise that this point you are raising benefits me more than you right?? If Ichigo were really so strong, Yhwach would've felt threatened enough to use Almighty right away.

2. He need it to MAKE SURE that 1% does not happen. It doesn't have to be 1% either, it can be 10%, 49% etc. What you are claiming that it must be majority (more than 50%). Why?? Why does it need to be majority of the time before he "need" to use Almighty from preventing it from happening??

Remember, Yhwach's intention isn't just to win by chance. It is so secure his victory so that Ichigo has 0% chance of winning. And since he has the capability to do that I don't see why not.

HoS power can be either Bankai or Shikai. We already saw him tanking Shikai's attack so it doesn't even make sense. But even if it really is Shikai, it still doesn't mean Bankai is stronger than SK Yhwach.

No it can not be either Shikai or Bankai because Ichigo was in his Shikai and he praised his Shikai. And again getting nearly bisected isn’t “tanking” something.

I said for Non-Almighty Yhwachs. Go reread my post and don't exclude it in your quote again.

You literally quoted me quoting your complete post.

A much stronger Yhwach admitted Ichigo was stronger than the Yhwach that defeated Ichibei. This isn’t hard to grasp. SK Yhwach is stronger than the Base Almighty Yhwach that fought Ichibei.

No Caption Provided

I told you to go reread my post again didn't I.

Did you do it?

He needs Almighty to beat Ichibei too, so your point?

SK Yhwach doesn’t need the Almighty to blitz and oneshot or straight up Soul Crush Ichibei.

According to what?? Evidence?

You know what, forget this, because I know this is debatable. What is not debatable is Shikai Ichigo being above SK Yhwach. Or Bankai Ichigo for that matter, but let's clear the Shikai one first.

Of all the possible futures, Yhwach definitely need to defend himself against the possibility that Ichigo will kill him with outside help. And we know that such possible future exist because he did end up getting outside help.

This is just blatant headcanon at this point. He was referring directly to Ichigo’s power by himself and that had nothing to do with outside help because as shown when he got that help Yhwach wasn’t expecting that yet.

Able to kill him =/= rival him. For example, a poisonous spider might be able to kill you, but if you're on guard and not let it bite you, the spider probably stand no chance against you.

However, the poisonous spider ability to kill you is still very commendable, which is why Yhwach commended on it. If by some chance another human were to hold you still to let the spider get a chance to bite you, then you can still die. So the logical thing to do is to kill the spider while you can to eliminate that possibility.

  1. Ichigo shares no qualities with a spider which uses poison to overcome a strength difference. He has no extra ability that Yhwach‘s power wouldn’t be able to overcome.
  2. Yhwach directly referred to Ichigo’s power.

Ichigo blatantly rivals and by Yhwach’s own words can overpower him with his HoS Shikai.

I don't deny the fact that Bankai Ichigo can kill Yhwach if given the chance. As in if you give Bankai Ichigo an opening and land a direct hit, he can in fact kill SK Yhwach. Problem is, that doesn't mean Bankai Ichigo rivals Yhwach. Because way weaker characters CAN kill stronger characters, as long as they are not SO weak that even their concentrated reiatsu in their attacks can't even overpower the strong's passive reiatsu.

1. So my analogy goes like this, Ichigo can kill him given the chance, just like the spider. But given a fair fight, which means Yhwach also can land an attack that is fatal to Ichigo. And considering that Yhwach is generally stronger than Ichigo despite being "killable".

2. Yes, Yhwach IS referring to Ichigo's power, I'm not denying it at all. But, he's referring to his power being powerful enough to overcome his passive reiatsu. But, powerful enough to kill Yhwach =/= powerful enough to threaten (let alone rival) him. BUT, he CAN threaten him, that is, if there's outside help to change the circumstances, to give Ichigo the opening to execute his kill, therefore Yhwach uses Almighty.

To summarize:

1. Ichigo is powerful enough to kill him, but not powerful enough to threaten him.

2. With the possibility of outside intervention, it makes Ichigo's "killablility" a threat to him.

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#50  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@revold:

"Almost bisected" bruh that's a super biased way to describe it. I mean sure, he did cut him at least. But Yhwach doesn't look least bit affected by it so that just means he has enough reiatsu to overpower Yhwach's passive reiatsu. Getting one lucky hit that doesn't even do anything significant doesn't mean he "rivals" him.

How else do you describe something that nearly cleaved someone in half?

No Caption Provided

And hey, that was his one chance he took Yhwach off guard with his new attack. And it's not like he could spam it. So call it "almost bisected" or "he only survived due to his endurance" (bruh), ask anyone who read that chapter and I'm sure most will think Yhwach had the upper hand right there. (even without Almighty)

The attack actually blitzed Yhwach who was looking directly at it and paying attention.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And no where does it say that it can’t be spammed which isn’t relevant to begin with.

Shikai or Bankai, it is still "power when fused with a hollow". Are you suggesting that once Ichigo goes Bankai, he loses his "power when fused with a hollow"??

Or instead of Bankai, do you prefer "Bankai Ichigo's Horn of Salvation power"??

You yourself said right above that Ichigo was holding back. Yhwach also knew that, especially when he has the Almighty.

That just makes no sense, it’s reaching. He again, specifically spoke of the HoS power in his Shikai specifically.

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Bankai would be a powerup on top of that meaning he would’ve had to also mention Bankai there if he were referring to it.

1. He refused to use it for the first half, so what?? You do realise that this point you are raising benefits me more than you right?? If Ichigo were really so strong, Yhwach would've felt threatened enough to use Almighty right away.

2. He need it to MAKE SURE that 1% does not happen. It doesn't have to be 1% either, it can be 10%, 49% etc. What you are claiming that it must be majority (more than 50%). Why?? Why does it need to be majority of the time before he "need" to use Almighty from preventing it from happening??

Remember, Yhwach's intention isn't just to win by chance. It is so secure his victory so that Ichigo has 0% chance of winning. And since he has the capability to do that I don't see why not.

1. I already posted a scan of Yhwach praising Ichigo’s powers and pulling out his blade. You literally cannot say he didn’t already view Ichigo as an immediate threat.

2. All that percentage stuff is nonsense he blatantly said he needed The Almighty to oppose Ichigo. That obviously means it’s the majority.

According to what?? Evidence?

Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi and the SOUL KING wtf do you mean according to what?

You know what, forget this, because I know this is debatable. What is not debatable is Shikai Ichigo being above SK Yhwach. Or Bankai Ichigo for that matter, but let's clear the Shikai one first.

Yhwach himself admitted that was the case this isn’t debatable it’s just a matter of you realizing you can’t put some random headcanon over what the series is blatantly illustrating.

1. So my analogy goes like this, Ichigo can kill him given the chance, just like the spider. But given a fair fight, which means Yhwach also can land an attack that is fatal to Ichigo. And considering that Yhwach is generally stronger than Ichigo despite being "killable".

That just isn’t the damn case. Simply being able to kill Yhwach didn’t make him use the Almighty as seen when he almost got cut in half and still didn’t want to use it. It wasn’t until he realized that Ichigo’s true power was the real deal and could completely overwhelm him that he activated the Almighty and confirmed that point by saying he needed the Almighty while looking at all realities.

2. Yes, Yhwach IS referring to Ichigo's power, I'm not denying it at all. But, he's referring to his power being powerful enough to overcome his passive reiatsu. But, powerful enough to kill Yhwach =/= powerful enough to threaten (let alone rival) him. BUT, he CAN threaten him, that is, if there's outside help to change the circumstances, to give Ichigo the opening to execute his kill, therefore Yhwach uses Almighty.

Ichigo had already nearly bisected him and wasn’t talking about anyone else. This is a joke.