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#151 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest said:

@hittheassasin:

Its excessive healing to the point it rots you apart. It fits the description.

Very hard to pass Tenjirou’s waters off as “poisoning”, though I guess it has similar effects in a way.

The water is excessive healing tho and those specific descriptions actually mean alot when talking about characters like DK who are harmed by healing.

Someone who absorbs healing powers would be unaffected, so you can't really classify Tenjuro's water as poison. Someone with poison resistance would still be affected by the water considering it works completely different from conventional poison.

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#152 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel said:
@leothegreatest said:

@hittheassasin:

Its excessive healing to the point it rots you apart. It fits the description.

Very hard to pass Tenjirou’s waters off as “poisoning”, though I guess it has similar effects in a way.

The water is excessive healing tho and those specific descriptions actually mean alot when talking about characters like DK who are harmed by healing.

Someone who absorbs healing powers would be unaffected, so you can't really classify Tenjuro's water as poison. Someone with poison resistance would still be affected by the water considering it works completely different from conventional poison.

This doesn't make sense it's like saying conventional poison shouldn't be regarded as poison either since some characters who absorb poison or would only become stronger from it like Gerard would be unaffected.

The waters rapidly heal to the point your body's overwhelmed and you start to rot. It's even better than conventional poison and Ichigo was completely unaffected by it.

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#153 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: @faradaysloth: I'm pretty sure that's an entirely different power. Magic attacks just don't work on the demon king, just like they don't work on Zeldris, but the Ruler converts all damage into strength.

Merlin addressed both instances as if they were two different abilities and the ruler hasn't worked on physical damage regardless.

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#154 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6 said:
@ourmanuel said:
@leothegreatest said:

@hittheassasin:

Its excessive healing to the point it rots you apart. It fits the description.

Very hard to pass Tenjirou’s waters off as “poisoning”, though I guess it has similar effects in a way.

The water is excessive healing tho and those specific descriptions actually mean alot when talking about characters like DK who are harmed by healing.

Someone who absorbs healing powers would be unaffected, so you can't really classify Tenjuro's water as poison. Someone with poison resistance would still be affected by the water considering it works completely different from conventional poison.

This doesn't make sense it's like saying conventional poison shouldn't be regarded as poison either since some characters who absorb poison or would only become stronger from it like Gerard would be unaffected.

The waters rapidly heal to the point your body's overwhelmed and you start to rot. It's even better than conventional poison and Ichigo was completely unaffected by it.

What I mean is that the distinction between an ability that rots via healing and poison is important. DK would be weakened from Tenjuro's water, but he would be empowered by an actual poison. Barragan's ability rots away a person through time manipulation, but his ability wouldn't be considered poison either. These little distinctions are vital in battle involving characters like DK who's ability works only under certain parameters. Saying that Tenjuro's water is poison is just false.

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#155 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17435 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: It was stated that it was all manners of attacks.

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And Wild's attack, which was physical, was stated to not have worked on him due to the ruler.

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#156 Edited by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that The Ruler only works purely against magical attacks when it's application and use is stated within it's first appearance...

Mel doesn't need the ruler to curb tho. That storm from the new chapter is enough.

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#157 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

All manners of attacks but it hasn’t shown to work on physical attacks yet all of those attacks were magic including Wild’s.

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#158 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest said:
@worldofruin6 said:
@ourmanuel said:
@leothegreatest said:

@hittheassasin:

Its excessive healing to the point it rots you apart. It fits the description.

Very hard to pass Tenjirou’s waters off as “poisoning”, though I guess it has similar effects in a way.

The water is excessive healing tho and those specific descriptions actually mean alot when talking about characters like DK who are harmed by healing.

Someone who absorbs healing powers would be unaffected, so you can't really classify Tenjuro's water as poison. Someone with poison resistance would still be affected by the water considering it works completely different from conventional poison.

This doesn't make sense it's like saying conventional poison shouldn't be regarded as poison either since some characters who absorb poison or would only become stronger from it like Gerard would be unaffected.

The waters rapidly heal to the point your body's overwhelmed and you start to rot. It's even better than conventional poison and Ichigo was completely unaffected by it.

What I mean is that the distinction between an ability that rots via healing and poison is important. DK would be weakened from Tenjuro's water, but he would be empowered by an actual poison. Barragan's ability rots away a person through time manipulation, but his ability wouldn't be considered poison either. These little distinctions are vital in battle involving characters like DK who's ability works only under certain parameters. Saying that Tenjuro's water is poison is just false.

Tenjirou‘s water isn’t comparable to Barragans respira. Respira ages you into nothingness while Tenjirou‘s water overwhelms your body with healing till you rot away, like i said it’s superior to conventional poison and idk why you keep bringing up what affect the water would have on the DK, i’m not talking about what affects it would have on him i’m saying his storm won’t affect Ichigo.

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#159 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: The fact is that Tenjuro's attack was specifically stated to be healing, whereas DK's storm was specifically stated to be poisonous. You can't say an attack is poison just because it has a similar affect when it was specifically stated to be something else entirely.

Tenjuro's ability heals to death and DK's poisons to death.

This is extremely simple.

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#160 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: The fact is that Tenjuro's attack was specifically stated to be healing, whereas DK's storm was specifically stated to be poisonous. You can't say an attack is poison just because it has a similar affect when it was specifically stated to be something else entirely.

Tenjuro's ability heals to death and DK's poisons to death.

This is extremely simple.

This is extremely simple. The water heals to the point it’s poisonous. Both overwhelm the body till it rots away.

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#161 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: The water was never stated to actually be poisonous tho. Like I said, Respira rots away it's target, but it is time manipulation. Tenjuro's water is healing that breaks down the body, not poison that breaks down the body.

I don't see how I can make this simpler. An attack is not poison unless it is poison.

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#162 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6:

The words ”Tenjirou’s water is posinous“ don’t have to be stated we literally see the poisonous effects and again Respira is a false analogy.

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#163 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: Except TENJURO'S WATER ISN'T POISON. The description of the water is literally a form of healing that hurts the body. Keyword "healing". Never was it ever stated or even insinuated that the water is poison. It's just intense healing water. Kubo literally spelled this one out for us. Quit trying to refute a fact just to give Ichigo poison resistance feats that he doesn't have.

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#164 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: Where are you getting that Wilds attack was in any way Magic? He literally ran into him physically.

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#165 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

The aura he had around him and the pseudo lightning effect created by it and when he spun.

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#166 Posted by Undre (3229 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: like i said that poison isnt doing anything to ichigo when it cant even kill ban and the commandments. All the poison did was kill humans. Ichigo bodies him with physicals like ban. This thread is ridiculous melidoas is still fodder.

Still poison isnt doing squat to someone with country plus durability😂😂

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#167 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6:

This is getting redundant.

Ban stated purgatory‘s poison rotted him away. Tenjirou’s water heals to the point it becomes poisonous and rots you away.

Understanding this shouldn’t be this difficult. It fits the definition of poison perfectly and also has the same results of the poison in question.

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#168 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: So basically from your assumption and nothing else. Directly disregarding that Wild literally physically ran into him?

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#169 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: I don't really agree with your logic, but DK's poison storm isn't really the deciding factor here imo, so agree to disagree.

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#170 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

The magic surrounding him is literally right there in front of your eyes. You not wanting to accept it isn’t my problem.

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#171 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: The fact that Wild physically ran into the DK is the only thing that we can see occurring without a doubt.

The attack being magic is pure speculation and is never stated or implied in any manner outside of an illustrative effect that could be the result of a physical attack.

Even if the attack was magical there is no denying that it has a physical component as Wild literally ran into DK on panel.

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#172 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6:

Oh the storm isn’t the deciding factor for you? It’s the best argument that has been made even though it’s hard countered by a weaker Ichigo.

Dont tell me you believe Mels better physically or has stronger energy projection..

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#173 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

The fact that Wild physically ran into the DK is the only thing that we can see occurring without a doubt.

The attack being magic is pure speculation and is never stated or implied in any manner outside of an illustrative effect that could be the result of a physical attack.

It was a physical attack coated with magic as we've seen other characters do.

Even if the attack was magical there is no denying that it has a physical component as Wild literally ran into DK on panel.

We don't know how much of it was actual unaided physical force and he's no where near powerful enough to hurt DK regardless (though full throttle proved to be somewhat more than a nuisance).

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#174 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: 1) Based on your speculation.

2) And yet It still has a physical component regardless and we have seen how strong physically Wild is. It was also specifically stated not to have an effect due to 'The Ruler' and not simple durability.

We have reason to believe that 'The Ruler' effects both magical and physical abilities based on statements and the on panel feats.

Is there anything suggesting that 'The Ruler' wouldnt work on physical damage?

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#175 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

Nothing im claiming is based on my speculation alone the attack is clearly magical and the ruler hasn’t been shown to work purely physical attacks.

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#176 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17435 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: It’s not just poison, it’s a storm that ripped apart all the buildings in the city, and it just shows how powerful he is, not that the specific attack would be the one to kill him.

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#177 Edited by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: I already gave my opinion of this battle, but yeah I do think DK outstats Ichigo in everything bar MAYBE speed. DK also has hax and the only times Ichigo's has ever had to fight someone with hax(even someone weaker such as Askin), he got handled.

All of Ichigo's "feats" are based on the same speculative scaling that OP uses for every featless high tier that you look down on. DK has the casual feat of oneshotting a PC that nosells multimountain+ attacks. I know you will attempt to refute all of this with the same wonky scaling that I mentioned above, but DK/Mel just has better feats and more reliable scaling.

I'm not just lowballing either. I know it's hard to believe, but once even I was a Bleach fanboy, but one day I just saw the error in my ways and tried to have a less biased opinion.

I calced the size of lanza countless times and even my lowballs came out to the size of Rhode Island. But then I thought to myself "Then how are those pillars visible, and why was that hollow's size comparable to LN's wall."

When I finally stopped buying into the hype and decided to think for myself, I realized that most of my assertions involving Bleach were just plain wrong.

I've reevaluated my stance on Bleach in general and the Godtiers quite a few times since finishing Bleach while using the most linear and logical scaling system possible, and I still think DK wins.

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#178 Posted by Undre (3229 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: It’s not just poison, it’s a storm that ripped apart all the buildings in the city, and it just shows how powerful he is, not that the specific attack would be the one to kill him.

Really so your trying to lowball XD

Ichigos tank attacks that dwaft a city

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Thats one fragor dwarfing a city from a far. Then he swipes away 6 fragors casually.

Not only that dangia ichigo is his base shika now. Let his VL bankia

Not to mention VL ichigo casually breaking an island level attack like nothing man the lowball 😂😂😂😂

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#179 Posted by Undre (3229 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6: your clearly lowballing Ichigo has noselled multimoutian level attacks in a weaker form. Current ichigo is even more ridiculous. Kenpachi can tank his own country level attacks. Ichigo scales above him

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#180 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: The attack is never stated or implied to be magical in nature and was initiated by physical contact. Therefore assuming that the attack is magical is nothing short of speculation.

I'm amazed how often you speculate when it suits you then turn around and accuse others of the same when it doesn't work for you.

So you are saying that 'The Ruler' needs to explicitly work on a pure physical attack when it has been shown to work on an attack that at bare minimum had a physical component including physical contact?

That's honestly just silly. But we can wait a few chapters and see since you insist on being pedantic.

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#181 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: Bruh, you're at least a whole tier of wank above Leo.

I know every argument you're going to use, and damn near all of it is just the sort of wank that makes the Bleach fanbase on CV so toxic

I'm not saying that Ichigo is below multimountain. I'm saying that the only feats that Ichigo reliably scales to were done Dangai. Both Ichigo and Mel's best on panel feats are multimountain at most, but Mel has waaaaayyyy better scaling. Show me Ichigo hurting someone that EOS Kenny couldn't and I'll concede on him being physically stronger, but you can't show me those feats or real scaling cuz Ichigo's scaling is trash near EOS.

Unless you are going to show me scaling that doesn't involve reiatsu, don't reply.

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#182 Edited by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre:Not sure why a Fragor means anything when even fodder Red Demons can output DC superior to one. Keep in mind that the Fairy King's tree literally dwarfs mountains.

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And this is the weakest form of demon, an Albion is far more powerful (Red Demons have a PL of 1K, Albion's have a PL of 5.5k) to a point where it can make blasts comparable to itself in size (which is the size of a mountain) and King tanked a blast from it in a fodder state and also survived a direct hit from said Albion when said Albion can casually tear apart the tops of mountains and slice the Fairy tree, which is canonically stated to be as hard as steel and while half the size it used to be was still bigger than a mountain, in half.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Scans from left to right show

1. Proof that an Albion is mountain sized

2. Two scans of King surviving direct energy blasts that are superior in potency to the Red Demon's, he got up from both of these quickly and his durability is far less than Mel's at this point.

3. King tanking a direct physical hit from the Albion after being blasted once

4. Proof that the Albion has casual mountain level DC (by scaling Albions are multi-mountain+)

Oh and King oneshot said Albion, the same Albion which no-selled multi-mountain+ attacks from Mel with Liz's sword.

BOS Mel would no-sell a Fragor and tank an Ultra Fragor, I feel like people just enjoy to lowball the sins. Anyone who thinks this is a stomp in Ichigo's favor needs to reread the first 120 chapters.

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#183 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

We got more proof that it's a magical attack when Wild went full throttle and attacked the DK while The Ruler was shut off.

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Like i said it's not just speculation it's proven by the manga. But you can still pretend it's not magic if that makes you feel better.

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#184 Posted by Undre (3229 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6: lol dued ichigo actual has better scaling. R2 ulqioria is already Island ichigo is like 6 leagues above that VL ichigo aizens 4 forms all scale above that. And i havent even include people from TYBW arc.

He was verbatim stated to be the strongest war potential and to be on yhwachs level. You say you don't want reastu statements when it clearly defines how strong you are in bleach just like SDS has power levels. I can tell your trying to Down play.

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Anyway Kenpachi is weaker than base Gerard Kenpachi couldnt even damage him until he went bankia and it still wasnt enough. Yhwach aborbes 2nd form geard and all the elites

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Ichigo was stated to be on yhwachs. Yhwach was even afraid of his bankia. Then ichigo cutts yhwach in half. Keep mind hes many times stronger than geard who Kenpachi cant even hold a candle to especially his first and second holy form

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#185 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: What in that scan shows that his previous attack or even full throttle is magical in nature? Nothing in that scan demonstrates or says that.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with that scan.

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#186 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

You gotta be kidding me. Do you really not see damage the DK took from the magical attack or the energy coming from Wild in full throttle?

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#187 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17435 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: Fragor is much smaller than the demon king's attack. It should put Aizen at last around commandment level to arc angel level, but not demon King level. EOS Aizen is the only version I could see having a chance.

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#188 Posted by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: From the evidence you've put forward it basically proves that the Ruler can absorb both magical and physical energy, It doesn't matter if he was 'coated in magic' as you put it, he still charged into the Demon King and caused physical damage.

In fact, the combining of physical and magic damage is a common thing in NNT. I'm sure you are aware of Meliodas doing such a thing with his Enchantment: Hellblaze which coats his attacks in the Demon Clan's purgatory fire.

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So yes, attacks can be both physical and magical and Demon King absorbed it both, the way the damage is shown on the Demon King should put any baseless claims that it isn't physical to rest.

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Stop it.

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#189 Edited by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: I mean Fragor is literally inferior to a fodder Red Demon's energy output, by scaling even an Albion should be far above Aizen in DC.

Aizen isn't even above 10C level lol

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#190 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: This is my point. All reiatsu scaling, but not a single interaction between these forms of characters who you are trying to scale upwards. I believe Ichigo scales directly upwards from Dangai and Vasto, but everything else is speculation.

Reiatsu and power levels should be used for a general reference of strength. They shouldn't be used for direct comparisons of DC, physicals, etc cuz some characters specialize in speed, energy projection, hax, physicals, etc.

IE: Byakuya being stronger than Shikai Kenny, but not being as physically powerful cuz of his power set.

Ichigo has always been a speed+energy projection type. Even in Kenny and Ichigo's first encounter Ichigo had to use getsuga to match Kenny's physical strength. Kenny was literally a war potential for his fighting strength. I believe that Ichigo can match Kenny's DC with getsuga and/or cero, but not with physical strength.

The scaling your are using is full of holes. I never rely solely on PLs while scaling.

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#191 Edited by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6: Just show him the scan of a fodder version of Mel eclipsing the sky with his power to put any of that Reitsu wank to rest.

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And this is 32k PL Mel, current Mel should have more than 280k+ PL seeing as each commandment= 28k.

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#192 Edited by AlexTheBoss (17435 posts) - - Show Bio

@sevendeadlygod:

I mean Fragor is literally inferior to a fodder Red Demon's energy output,

No, that is going way too far. Aizen's fragor feat is like a weaker version of Melioda's Danafor feat.

by scaling even an Albion should be far above Aizen in DC.

Aizen was going to one shot the soul palace, and even Ulquiorra has better DC feats than everyone before commandment level, so no.

Aizen isn't even above 10C level lol

I disagree. He is at the very least in their tier.

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#193 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6: Just show him the scan of a fodder version of Mel eclipsing the sky with his power to put any of that Reitsu wank to rest.

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And this is 32k PL Mel, current Mel should have more than 280k+ PL seeing as each commandment= 28k.

Yeah. Mel has more quantifiable amounts of reiatsu than the majority of the Bleach cast in a much weaker form.

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#194 Posted by Undre (3229 posts) - - Show Bio

@sevendeadlygod: fair tree does not dwaft moutians and you clearly contradicted yourself and said it was moutian size.

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Skyscraper at best but i will wank it to small mountain for the sake of the argument. So red demon is moutian at a PL of 1000. So AM meliodas would be 140× moutain at a PL of 140,000.

Now for bleach PLs Ulqioria is already in his first form because he blew up 1/3 of LN. In his second form is island level 100x moutain. For dwarfing LN

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Anyway aizen is stronger than ulqioria in his 1st form by 5x based on this multiplier

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That being said 1st form is 5x stronger second form 25x,3rd 100x, 4th 1000x,. So aizen in FKT arc is 10,000 times stronger than ulqiora. And ulqioria already is comparable to. AM meliodas. And still haven't included dangai ichigo,TYBW aizen true bankia ichigo,VL bankia ichigo.

Anyway monster aizen would have a PL of 1 billion in the verse. Tybw ichigo would be in the trillions

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#195 Edited by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

No, that is going way too far. Aizen's fragor feat is like a weaker version of Melioda's Danafor feat.

Each of those blasts from the Red Demon would be double the size of mountains, they were almost the size of the Fairy Tree which even when it was half grown is the size of a mountain. It's comparable to a fragor.

However looking at it objectively I'm being biased here, it didn't vaporize the rock like the Fragor so it may not be as potent but it sure as hell is close.

And to be honest Red Demon feat is pretty close to Danafor, it certainly has a FAR bigger range and sense of scale. It's obviously inferior though.

Aizen was going to one shot the soul palace

Soul King's palace is like mountain sized if we compare it to the Island sized Sereitei so not sure how it's superior.

and even Ulquiorra has better DC feats than everyone before commandment level,

From what I remember from the Lanza it was pretty unimpressive, IIRC it's around mountain level+ (people lowball it to city but that's just hilarious) but I mean the Red Demon's blasts were frickin' huge.

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And yes, it doesn't show mountains in this scan but it's pretty clear how big Nakaba wants the fairy king's tree to be. And when we're also debating Bleach we can't use purely use visuals or city level sereitei and sub town level Gremmy meteor.

10C?

10 commandments.

Going to say I was exaggerating a bit here, Aizen is above 10 commandments level (Or just about, EOS Aizen that is)I think I was just getting ahead of myself here lol. I still believe Albions by scaling have energy projection that is comparable to Aizen's in potency.

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#196 Edited by SevenDeadlyGOD (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre:

fair tree does not dwaft moutians and you clearly contradicted yourself and said it was moutian size.

I don't care for the Anime interpretation and Nakaba has made it straight up clear it's far bigger than any mountains and VISIBLY dwarfs mountains, and yes the tree when literally half grown is mountain sized so I fail to see your point?

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Skyscraper at best but i will wank it to small mountain for the sake of the argument. So red demon is moutian at a PL of 1000. So AM meliodas would be 140× moutain at a PL of 140,000.

'Skyscraper'

I hope you realize how badly I could lowball Bleach based on visuals alone. Don't play this game. In fact Bleach is even worse off than NNT by a large margin if we just ignore scale.

Also the PL system isn't just a basic 10x multiplier, there are multiple factors that go into a PL like strength, magic and spirit and they don't just multiply like that.

Now for bleach PLs Ulqioria is already in his first form because he blew up 1/3 of LN.

From what you just showed that's still inferior to the Red Demon feat, in fact the range looks even smaller.

In his second form is island level 100x moutain

Reasoning for this? This came out of nowhere.

Anyway aizen is stronger than ulqioria in his 1st form by 5x based on this multiplier

The problem with this linear x scaling is how ridiculous the numbers get to a point where the corresponding power of the characters makes no sense. Why would Aizen be 10000x stronger when his Fragor's could only destroy a multi-mountain's worth of land when Lanza itself is mountain level? It's not a case where Shikai would break 1 rock and then Bankai would break 10, that logic doesn't work. Kubo really messed up when he implemented this entire system and he basically scrapped it later on.

I mean even if we want to do all this Reiatsu and Bankai/Shikai scaling, where would you put Mel who in a fodder form literally eclipsed the sky with his power? That would be a pretty insane feat for his Reitsu in bleachverse.

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#197 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6 said:

@leothegreatest:

I already gave my opinion of this battle, but yeah I do think DK outstats Ichigo in everything bar MAYBE speed. DK also has hax and the only times Ichigo's has ever had to fight someone with hax(even someone weaker such as Askin), he got handled.

He doesn't come close to Ichigo in any stat and the part with Askin is a terrible example, Ichigo was distracted by Shunsui's bankai and Askin can poison Ichigo with Reishi the substance Ichigo is literally made out of. And DK Mel's hax isn't doing anything to Ichigo, King demonstrated you can simply nullify commandments by being more powerful.

All of Ichigo's "feats" are based on the same speculative scaling that OP uses for every featless high tier that you look down on. DK has the casual feat of oneshotting a PC that nosells multimountain+ attacks. I know you will attempt to refute all of this with the same wonky scaling that I mentioned above, but DK/Mel just has better feats and more reliable scaling.

No Ichigo has been cemented as a God Tier character in his verse only rivaled by Soul King Yhwach in stats and power which has been shown to be massively above every other character in the verse. Your "X character needs to fight Y character and then Y character has to fight Z in order to find out how strong they are" stipulation doesn't isn't the only valid estimation of power. Bleach blatantly explains who's more powerful than who in other ways.

And i don't look down on OP scaling i just call it out when people are using it but not excepting the same scaling for other verses. You're doing the exact same thing but with NNT. You even admitted that you know i'm going to counter your argument with the same type of scaling. Stop antagonizing Bleach scaling if you're going to use the same type of scaling, It's just blatantly hypocritical.

Anyways the PC he broke was from a completely exhausted Merlin I highly doubt it had the strength of a normal PC which again you only put at multi-mountain through alot of scaling and the multi-mountain feat you're talking about was an energy durability feat not a physical one so that Mel wouldn't exactly need multi-mountain level strength but i'll be generous and just go ahead and agree he does since it's such a little feat compared to what Ichigo has done in much weaker forms.

First in physical strength you NNT top tiers scale from Galans feat. Mel's current power completely dwarfs Galan's so Multi-Mountain or slightly above seems right for physical strength and scaling from from his own feat in Danafor he's solidly island level with his energy projection. For speed he should be in the low 4 quad machs.

Bleach top tiers scale from Eyepatch Shikai Kenpachi's meteor feat (and he can scale from his own feats against Aizen as well). Since it was an island sized meteor still in it's fireball stage the feat is country level, Already far above an NNT God Tier. Ichigo just powering up to full power in only his True Shikai was able to stunt every fighter on the battle field who we're busy with Gerards Last form which massively above eyepatched shikai Kenny considering V1 Gerard was able to match a full powered Shikai Kenny. So True Shikai Ichigo is already massively above country level and his True VL Shikai massively above that and then His True VL Bankai is needless to say massively above that and that's the form he's starting in. Saying Mel's physical attacks aren't even going to tickle him is an understatement. Regarding energy projection he's nulled LDR with his bear hand in a VL form that wasn't even at full power and LDR can't be lowballed to below island level. He's tanked Fraggor which is tiers above LDR (in potency) before even getting serious and then when he got serious overpowered ultra Fraggor which is comprised of 6 Fraggors with a simple swing of Zangetsu and he also tanked Yhwach's Sereitei leveling darkness. True VL Bankai Ichigo scales to be massively above all of that. Mel isn't doing anything with his energy projection. Regarding speed base Ichigo blitzed base Yhwach who was able to easily react to a sneak attack from Mimihagi and claimed it was completely inferior to him and Mimihagi is at the very least relativistic. Ichigo then went on to blitz Soul King Yhwach while still holding back in his True VL Shikai. Mel would be nothing but a statue in this fight.

Ichigo dwarfs Mel in every category except hax which is irrelevant because the best counter to Mel's hax is dwarfing him in power. Oh the irony.

I'm not just lowballing either. I know it's hard to believe, but once even I was a Bleach fanboy, but one day I just saw the error in my ways and tried to have a less biased opinion.

It's not that it's hard to believe it's just a lie. No one goes from a "fanboy" to a downplayer.

I calced the size of lanza countless times and even my lowballs came out to the size of Rhode Island. But then I thought to myself "Then how are those pillars visible, and why was that hollow's size comparable to LN's wall."

Your main complaint is a drawing inconstancy there are valid calcs and showings that put LN at island level but i lowball it to Island level but anything below island level is purely downplay.

When I finally stopped buying into the hype and decided to think for myself, I realized that most of my assertions involving Bleach were just plain wrong.

I've reevaluated my stance on Bleach in general and the Godtiers quite a few times since finishing Bleach while using the most linear and logical scaling system possible, and I still think DK wins.

I highly doubt this is the case.

In the end Ichigo easily wins using both feats and scaling.

Avatar image for alextheboss
#198 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17435 posts) - - Show Bio

@sevendeadlygod:

Each of those blasts from the Red Demon would be double the size of mountains, they were almost the size of the Fairy Tree which even when it was half grown is the size of a mountain.

I looked at the scans you provided, and yeah those feats are pretty crazy. Not sure why people don't use them more often.

However there are some problems with that feat. First off you can see the red demon in that scan shooting the fire, and if he is around 20 feet tall, that makes those fire blasts small mountain level.

Also it seems like Nakaba decided to nerf the red demons, as we never see them doing something crazy like that again

Soul King's palace is like mountain sized if we compare it to the Island sized Sereitei so not sure how it's superior.

He was going to bring down the entire palace, so I'm pretty sure that includes the 6 floating towns around it as well.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

And when we're also debating Bleach we can't use purely use visuals or city level sereitei and sub town level Gremmy meteor.

Gremmy's meteor by visuals alone is mountain sized.

Going to say I was exaggerating a bit here, Aizen is above 10 commandments level I think I was just getting ahead of myself here lol. I still believe Albions by scaling have energy projection that is comparable to Aizen's in potency.

Possibly. This is how I currently scale them off the top of my head.

-Demon King (50% power due to splitting his power in half), Yhwach, Ban, prime Meliodas with his original magic

-EOS bankai hollow powers Ichigo, Original Demon, Mael, the one Escanor

-adult King, Zeldris with demon king power and ominous nebula, assault mode Meliodas, EOS Aizen, bankai Kenpachi

-Cusack, Chandler, Ichibei, bankai Yamamoto, shikai Kenpachi, Gerard, Lille, dangai Ichigo

-Sarmiel, Tarmiel, EOS Toshiro, EOS Byakuya, Gremmy, monster Aizen

-Estarossa, base Zeldris, Meliodas post revival, butterfly Aizen

-other commandments, post chrysalis Aizen

-base Galan, chrysalis Aizen, VL Ichigo, Haschwalth

-base Aizen, R2 Ulquiorra, shikai Yamamoto, current base Diane

- demon Hendrickson, albion, Starrk, Bazz-B

-beginning of series Meliodas, Ban, Diane, Gowther, and king, red/grey demons, R1 Ulquiorra

Avatar image for worldofruin6
#199 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3123 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6 said:

@leothegreatest:

I already gave my opinion of this battle, but yeah I do think DK outstats Ichigo in everything bar MAYBE speed. DK also has hax and the only times Ichigo's has ever had to fight someone with hax(even someone weaker such as Askin), he got handled.

He doesn't come close to Ichigo in any stat and the part with Askin is a terrible example, Ichigo was distracted by Shunsui's bankai and Askin can poison Ichigo with Reishi the substance Ichigo is literally made out of. And DK Mel's hax isn't doing anything to Ichigo, King demonstrated you can simply nullify commandments by being more powerful.

All of Ichigo's "feats" are based on the same speculative scaling that OP uses for every featless high tier that you look down on. DK has the casual feat of oneshotting a PC that nosells multimountain+ attacks. I know you will attempt to refute all of this with the same wonky scaling that I mentioned above, but DK/Mel just has better feats and more reliable scaling.

No Ichigo has been cemented as a God Tier character in his verse only rivaled by Soul King Yhwach in stats and power which has been shown to be massively above every other character in the verse. Your "X character needs to fight Y character and then Y character has to fight Z in order to find out how strong they are" stipulation doesn't isn't the only valid estimation of power. Bleach blatantly explains who's more powerful than who in other ways.

And i don't look down on OP scaling i just call it out when people are using it but not excepting the same scaling for other verses. You're doing the exact same thing but with NNT. You even admitted that you know i'm going to counter your argument with the same type of scaling. Stop antagonizing Bleach scaling if you're going to use the same type of scaling, It's just blatantly hypocritical.

Anyways the PC he broke was from a completely exhausted Merlin I highly doubt it had the strength of a normal PC which again you only put at multi-mountain through alot of scaling and the multi-mountain feat you're talking about was an energy durability feat not a physical one so that Mel wouldn't exactly need multi-mountain level strength but i'll be generous and just go ahead and agree he does since it's such a little feat compared to what Ichigo has done in much weaker forms.

First in physical strength you NNT top tiers scale from Galans feat. Mel's current power completely dwarfs Galan's so Multi-Mountain or slightly above seems right for physical strength and scaling from from his own feat in Danafor he's solidly island level with his energy projection. For speed he should be in the low 4 quad machs.

Bleach top tiers scale from Eyepatch Shikai Kenpachi's meteor feat (and he can scale from his own feats against Aizen as well). Since it was an island sized meteor still in it's fireball stage the feat is country level, Already far above an NNT God Tier. Ichigo just powering up to full power in only his True Shikai was able to stunt every fighter on the battle field who we're busy with Gerards Last form which massively above eyepatched shikai Kenny considering V1 Gerard was able to match a full powered Shikai Kenny. So True Shikai Ichigo is already massively above country level and his True VL Shikai massively above that and then His True VL Bankai is needless to say massively above that and that's the form he's starting in. Saying Mel's physical attacks aren't even going to tickle him is an understatement. Regarding energy projection he's nulled LDR with his bear hand in a VL form that wasn't even at full power and LDR can't be lowballed to below island level. He's tanked Fraggor which is tiers above LDR (in potency) before even getting serious and then when he got serious overpowered ultra Fraggor which is comprised of 6 Fraggors with a simple swing of Zangetsu and he also tanked Yhwach's Sereitei leveling darkness. True VL Bankai Ichigo scales to be massively above all of that. Mel isn't doing anything with his energy projection. Regarding speed base Ichigo blitzed base Yhwach who was able to easily react to a sneak attack from Mimihagi and claimed it was completely inferior to him and Mimihagi is at the very least relativistic. Ichigo then went on to blitz Soul King Yhwach while still holding back in his True VL Shikai. Mel would be nothing but a statue in this fight.

Ichigo dwarfs Mel in every category except hax which is irrelevant because the best counter to Mel's hax is dwarfing him in power. Oh the irony.

I'm not just lowballing either. I know it's hard to believe, but once even I was a Bleach fanboy, but one day I just saw the error in my ways and tried to have a less biased opinion.

It's not that it's hard to believe it's just a lie. No one goes from a "fanboy" to a downplayer.

I calced the size of lanza countless times and even my lowballs came out to the size of Rhode Island. But then I thought to myself "Then how are those pillars visible, and why was that hollow's size comparable to LN's wall."

Your main complaint is a drawing inconstancy there are valid calcs and showings that put LN at island level but i lowball it to Island level but anything below island level is purely downplay.

When I finally stopped buying into the hype and decided to think for myself, I realized that most of my assertions involving Bleach were just plain wrong.

I've reevaluated my stance on Bleach in general and the Godtiers quite a few times since finishing Bleach while using the most linear and logical scaling system possible, and I still think DK wins.

I highly doubt this is the case.

In the end Ichigo easily wins using both feats and scaling.

This is literally everything I expected to read. I'd rather not start the same argument I've had countless times now saying the same things over and over. Thanks, but no thanks. I understand the pseudo DBZ reiatsu scaling system your using, but I don't buy into it. I use feats and linear scaling. We just have very different views regarding Bleach.

I still only think Yhwach can beat DK considering he's just like a haxxed Ichigo.

Avatar image for leothegreatest
#200 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4571 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest said:
@worldofruin6 said:

@leothegreatest:

I already gave my opinion of this battle, but yeah I do think DK outstats Ichigo in everything bar MAYBE speed. DK also has hax and the only times Ichigo's has ever had to fight someone with hax(even someone weaker such as Askin), he got handled.

He doesn't come close to Ichigo in any stat and the part with Askin is a terrible example, Ichigo was distracted by Shunsui's bankai and Askin can poison Ichigo with Reishi the substance Ichigo is literally made out of. And DK Mel's hax isn't doing anything to Ichigo, King demonstrated you can simply nullify commandments by being more powerful.

All of Ichigo's "feats" are based on the same speculative scaling that OP uses for every featless high tier that you look down on. DK has the casual feat of oneshotting a PC that nosells multimountain+ attacks. I know you will attempt to refute all of this with the same wonky scaling that I mentioned above, but DK/Mel just has better feats and more reliable scaling.

No Ichigo has been cemented as a God Tier character in his verse only rivaled by Soul King Yhwach in stats and power which has been shown to be massively above every other character in the verse. Your "X character needs to fight Y character and then Y character has to fight Z in order to find out how strong they are" stipulation doesn't isn't the only valid estimation of power. Bleach blatantly explains who's more powerful than who in other ways.

And i don't look down on OP scaling i just call it out when people are using it but not excepting the same scaling for other verses. You're doing the exact same thing but with NNT. You even admitted that you know i'm going to counter your argument with the same type of scaling. Stop antagonizing Bleach scaling if you're going to use the same type of scaling, It's just blatantly hypocritical.

Anyways the PC he broke was from a completely exhausted Merlin I highly doubt it had the strength of a normal PC which again you only put at multi-mountain through alot of scaling and the multi-mountain feat you're talking about was an energy durability feat not a physical one so that Mel wouldn't exactly need multi-mountain level strength but i'll be generous and just go ahead and agree he does since it's such a little feat compared to what Ichigo has done in much weaker forms.

First in physical strength you NNT top tiers scale from Galans feat. Mel's current power completely dwarfs Galan's so Multi-Mountain or slightly above seems right for physical strength and scaling from from his own feat in Danafor he's solidly island level with his energy projection. For speed he should be in the low 4 quad machs.

Bleach top tiers scale from Eyepatch Shikai Kenpachi's meteor feat (and he can scale from his own feats against Aizen as well). Since it was an island sized meteor still in it's fireball stage the feat is country level, Already far above an NNT God Tier. Ichigo just powering up to full power in only his True Shikai was able to stunt every fighter on the battle field who we're busy with Gerards Last form which massively above eyepatched shikai Kenny considering V1 Gerard was able to match a full powered Shikai Kenny. So True Shikai Ichigo is already massively above country level and his True VL Shikai massively above that and then His True VL Bankai is needless to say massively above that and that's the form he's starting in. Saying Mel's physical attacks aren't even going to tickle him is an understatement. Regarding energy projection he's nulled LDR with his bear hand in a VL form that wasn't even at full power and LDR can't be lowballed to below island level. He's tanked Fraggor which is tiers above LDR (in potency) before even getting serious and then when he got serious overpowered ultra Fraggor which is comprised of 6 Fraggors with a simple swing of Zangetsu and he also tanked Yhwach's Sereitei leveling darkness. True VL Bankai Ichigo scales to be massively above all of that. Mel isn't doing anything with his energy projection. Regarding speed base Ichigo blitzed base Yhwach who was able to easily react to a sneak attack from Mimihagi and claimed it was completely inferior to him and Mimihagi is at the very least relativistic. Ichigo then went on to blitz Soul King Yhwach while still holding back in his True VL Shikai. Mel would be nothing but a statue in this fight.

Ichigo dwarfs Mel in every category except hax which is irrelevant because the best counter to Mel's hax is dwarfing him in power. Oh the irony.

I'm not just lowballing either. I know it's hard to believe, but once even I was a Bleach fanboy, but one day I just saw the error in my ways and tried to have a less biased opinion.

It's not that it's hard to believe it's just a lie. No one goes from a "fanboy" to a downplayer.

I calced the size of lanza countless times and even my lowballs came out to the size of Rhode Island. But then I thought to myself "Then how are those pillars visible, and why was that hollow's size comparable to LN's wall."

Your main complaint is a drawing inconstancy there are valid calcs and showings that put LN at island level but i lowball it to Island level but anything below island level is purely downplay.

When I finally stopped buying into the hype and decided to think for myself, I realized that most of my assertions involving Bleach were just plain wrong.

I've reevaluated my stance on Bleach in general and the Godtiers quite a few times since finishing Bleach while using the most linear and logical scaling system possible, and I still think DK wins.

I highly doubt this is the case.

In the end Ichigo easily wins using both feats and scaling.

This is literally everything I expected to read. I'd rather not start the same argument I've had countless times now saying the same things over and over. Thanks, but no thanks. I understand the pseudo DBZ reiatsu scaling system your using, but I don't buy into it. I use feats and linear scaling. We just have very different views regarding Bleach.

I still only think Yhwach can beat DK considering he's just like a haxxed Ichigo.

And I knew you obviously wouldn't be able to counter that entire argument and would have to either concede or do this.

You even admitted you only use the scaling that benefits NNT and best downplays bleach. Even though most of the scaling i did was in fact linear.. and the rest of it was just common sense so your excuse doesn't really work.

There are quite a few Bleach characters that stomp DK Mel and it doesn't seem like that's going to change anytime soon.