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#1 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

District 1 
Ferro Vida/Fetts 
Cable:M4 Colt Commando with armour piercing rounds and a scope Silenced MK23 handgun Benelli M4 Shotgun.Several bricks of C4 and charges,KA-BAR knife, Psimitar 
Boba Fett:Fett's classic blaster rifle(No disintegration) Blaster pistols Flamethrower Concussion rocket launchers Darts launcher Concussion grenade launcher Wrist blaster Heat resistant Mandoalorian armor(put down to tombstone level) Wrist cord Thermal detonators Sonic grenade Rocket dart launcher Retractable vibro-blades Helmet w/ a gas filter and lots of vision modes.  
 
vs 
 
District 5 
(((Prodigy)))/IfDCRuledTheWorld 
Zuko:Dual Dao Blades 
Toph  
 
 
 Now that we know our participants lets go over the rules:

 
Characters have no morals but still retain personality traits 
You may not raid comrades or fallen opponents for their gear unless other wise stated  
Do not add anything to anyone elses debate i know its tempting but dont do it  
Fights will go on as long as they have to (Always loved saying that).Anyway the fight goes until one side quits or they both agree to go to voting 
Votes do not count until i say that the battle is up for voting and do not count after i say voting is finished   
You will make your own thread to debate
If there is anything i missed here i reserve the right to add something 
 
The setting will be in an old growth forest similar to what would be found in the pacific northwest (USA) and will look something like this

No Caption Provided


The forest will be closed off and will have a 5 mile diameter. 
 
Finally this is the Hunger Games and i hope you didnt expect to be able to come into this with all those goodies and toys at your disposal.As a special treat for our viewers you will be going into this armed with only a short sword a shield and a bow with 15 flint tipped arrows. 
Your gear will be given to your opponents who will not be allowed to use any of it.After you win your battle you may claim your gear and weapons and use it for the remaining rounds 
 

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#2 Posted by IfDCRuledTheWorld (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we can take this. The environment as it is, gives Toph the advantage. Plenty of Earth to play with. Her bending gives us the advantage to locate our enemies way before they can see us. I'm assuming here that Boba Fett is without his helmet too since we're only allowed sword, shield, and bow. If so, then my strategy would to let Zuko go all Blue Spirit and do his own thing while Toph becomes the center of attention. If they attack her she would just shield herself with the earth while Zuko would strike from behind.

Or...........Zuko would still do his own thing and Toph would just chunk rocks at them keeping them on their toes while Zuko would swing around and strike from their blind side. If Toph can keep them occupied then I think we can win this. Either way, there's no way they can sneak up on us. Close combat battle favors us as well. Don't get me started if Toph is allowed to metal bend.

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#3 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me started if Toph is allowed to metal bend. 


 
That's one issue that I'm wondering about, and hoping Sherlock can clarify for us. Toph's ability to metal bend the gear she's given depends on what kind of metal her stuff is made out of. Her metalbending comes from learning to bend the earth-based impurities in metal. That's why she bends iron a lot in the series. Lots of impurities. However, if her gear is made of steel or bronze or something like that, there wouldn't be enough impurities in the metal for her to bend it.
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#4 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to add to IfDC's post, I think our team has the advantage from the get-go, primarily due to Toph's earthbending radar sense. 
 
Due to the environment, I would think it would be best if Toph stuck to the ground, and Zuko took to the trees. Toph will be able to spot our enemies from a long way away, as long as their feet are touching the ground. However, she can't sense anything other than that. It's not entirely likely that our enemies would stick exclusively to trees and never touch the ground, but it's always a possibility. Zuko would be scouting out the one area Toph can't see, just to be safe. 
When the confrontation finally starts, we will again have the advantage. Cable and Boba are both great hand-to-hand fighters, but they don't have any long-range attacks at all aside from arrows. And, due to the nature of his usual gear, I don't think Boba Fett has ever even used a simple bow and arrow before. My team, on the other hand, is pretty much all about long-distance attacks. Fire balls, fire whips, flying boulders, mini-avalanches... yeah. 
And, even if by some miracle Cable and Boba manage to get into hand-to-hand range, our team still wouldn't be useless. Toph may have made herself some body armor, depending on what kind of metal her weapons were made of. And Zuko is no stranger at all to swordfighting. His feats as the Blue Spirit put him among the top no-bending fighters in the Avatar series.

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#5 Edited by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@IfDCRuledTheWorld said:

I think we can take this. The environment as it is, gives Toph the advantage. Plenty of Earth to play with. Her bending gives us the advantage to locate our enemies way before they can see us. I'm assuming here that Boba Fett is without his helmet too since we're only allowed sword, shield, and bow. If so, then my strategy would to let Zuko go all Blue Spirit and do his own thing while Toph becomes the center of attention. If they attack her she would just shield herself with the earth while Zuko would strike from behind.

Or...........Zuko would still do his own thing and Toph would just chunk rocks at them keeping them on their toes while Zuko would swing around and strike from their blind side. If Toph can keep them occupied then I think we can win this. Either way, there's no way they can sneak up on us. Close combat battle favors us as well. Don't get me started if Toph is allowed to metal bend.

Cable's eye is one of the most technologically advanced things in the MU. It lets him see the entire EM spectrum, which means he would be able to pick out Toph and Zuko from a distance. And his gravimetric sheath is part of his body, and it gives him a personal force-field that makes him at least as durable as Tombstone (for the purposes of this thread), and his techno-organic bits are durable on top of that. He's also a highly skilled fighter (he's a six out of seven according to the hand book) who has beaten Wolverine (when he was the Horseman Death) in a fight. And by beaten I mean traded blows with for a while, waited for the chance to strike, then stabbed him through the chest. And Death Wolverine was supposed to be amped in some way, as all the Horsemen are. He also has more battlefield experience than Toph or Zuko (so does Boba) which gives my team a strategic edge. 
 
I would recommend that Boba takes the sword and shield. Cable has shown to be an excellent shot, and his eye will allow him to hit a target despite the underbrush that would otherwise obscure his view, and he already has his gravimetric shield and arm for melee. Cable also has the ability to expand his shield outward, so if you did do the boulder thing he could do that to protect Fett from the barrage. 
 
You would be unable to metal bend Cable's techno-organic parts. There are no impurities in them, so there is no earth to manipulate. 
 
I'm curious: how would Toph's Earth Bending sense fair in the forest? In the series I don't recall her using to find people in the woods before. Would she be able to see around trees? Could she see five miles away? Could she see us if we were in the trees? Even if you do see us coming, you couldn't sneak up on us very easily because of Cable's eye, and both of us are skilled enough to hold our own against Zuko, if for no other reason then their combat experience.
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#6 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

I would seem I should have educated myself more on Cable. I was unaware of a few of Cable's capabilities you mentioned there. 
 
I will put up a reply tomorrow.

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#7 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
I would seem I should have educated myself more on Cable. I was unaware of a few of Cable's capabilities you mentioned there.  I will put up a reply tomorrow.
I can post scans. 
 
Page from the hand book:  
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Wolverine fight (note how he says Wolverine is one of the few people in that time who is as skilled as he is: 
 
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
 Impressive fight with War Machine:
 
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
His techno-organic components taking bullets & a n ice acrobatics and skill showing:   
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  

Strong enough to send Luke Cage flying: 
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
 
His sheath taking bullets:
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
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#8 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

*enlarges first scan* 
 
LIEFELD ART! 
All scans are now rendered invalid.

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#9 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

And his gravimetric sheath is part of his body, and it gives him a personal force-field that makes him at least as durable as Tombstone (for the purposes of this thread), and his techno-organic bits are durable on top of that. 


 
The scans you posted show him taking bullets a lot. But unless he has other durability feats that are a lot higher than those, I can't see him being able to tank the level of damage Toph and Zuko dish out. Toph can launch boulders the size of Cable's entire body without much effort. Zuko can deal out fireballs about the same size, with about the same amount of effort. 
A few feats involving tanking bullets just don't seem to apply well to this fight. (As for the fight with War Machine, I'm just ignoring those. That was way above Tombstone-level durability.)  
 

And Death Wolverine was supposed to be amped in some way, as all the Horsemen are.  


 
If he was amped up, it wasn't much. Nightcrawler once managed to trade some blows with Death Wolverine too.  
 

He also has more battlefield experience than Toph or Zuko (so does Boba) which gives my team a strategic edge.   


 
Now that I am aware of Cable's cybernetic eye, I don't see any way either of our teams could get a strategic edge. Both Toph and Cable can see each other from a long distance away. And they're both smart enough to notice changes in each other's movements when they get close. "They're moving differently now... like they can sense us too...". So, due to the two of them, stealth and out-positioning will be sort of a moot point. 
And, aside from knowing the enemy's location, what other strategic edge could anyone get in this battle? Cable doesn't know jack crap about us. Toph doesn't know jack crap about you. We all have exactly the same weapons, and both teams will know where everyone on the battlefield is.  
 

I would recommend that Boba takes the sword and shield.  


 
Hmm. There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I was under the impression that each of our characters gets a sword, shield, and bow. The way you said that indicates you think that each team gets just one of those things and divies it among themselves. 
I'll ask Sherlock for confirmation.  
 

Cable also has the ability to expand his shield outward, so if you did do the boulder thing he could do that to protect Fett from the barrage.   


 
Yeah, but how well would it protect them? It's allowed Tombstone-level durability at max. Durability of that level will do only so well against high-speed boulders the size of a small car.  
 

You would be unable to metal bend Cable's techno-organic parts. There are no impurities in them, so there is no earth to manipulate.   


 
Indeed. I wasn't going to try to make an argument for that anyway.  
 

In the series I don't recall her using to find people in the woods before. Would she be able to see around trees? 


 
She wouldn't be able to see the trees themselves, since they are not made of earth, but they wouuld not obstruct her vision. Her earthbending-sight works a lot like Daredevil's radar sense. Trees, to her, would just be the equivalent of objects that don't reflect sound.  
 

Could she see five miles away?  


 
Her maximum range is never really established in the series, but she has several feats to indicate her sense is extremely sharp. As an example, she was woken up in the middle of the night when she sensed Combusion Man walking (probably a good half-mile away still).  
 

Could she see us if we were in the trees?  


 
That would be her one weakness. She would only be able to sense Cable and Boba as long as they were in contact with the ground. 
But, honestly, it's not much of a weakness in this situation. Why would Cable and Boba travel by hopping tree-to-tree?  
 

Even if you do see us coming, you couldn't sneak up on us very easily because of Cable's eye  


 
That was my point from earlier. Due to Cable's eye and Toph's earthbending sight, neither team would be able to sneak up on the other.
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#10 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio

*Sigh* 
 
I do wish Boba Fett at least some of his weapons. Even a mere blaster pistol would make me happy. Ah well... 

I will be posting my reply tomorrow. 

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#11 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Ferro was right about the weapons. Sherlock confirmed that each team gets one of each weapon.

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#12 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:

And his gravimetric sheath is part of his body, and it gives him a personal force-field that makes him at least as durable as Tombstone (for the purposes of this thread), and his techno-organic bits are durable on top of that. 


 
The scans you posted show him taking bullets a lot. But unless he has other durability feats that are a lot higher than those, I can't see him being able to tank the level of damage Toph and Zuko dish out. Toph can launch boulders the size of Cable's entire body without much effort. Zuko can deal out fireballs about the same size, with about the same amount of effort. 
A few feats involving tanking bullets just don't seem to apply well to this fight. (As for the fight with War Machine, I'm just ignoring those. That was way above Tombstone-level durability.)  

 
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
These are scans of Tombstone's durability. He can take a missile going off at his feet, falling several stories, and making a gas main blow up in his face without much more then a scratch. Whatever fire Zuko can dish without Sozin's comet is not enough to put down Tombstone. Tombstone has also taken full-force punches from Spider-man, who has been stated as being able to wreck small cars if he doesn't hold back. And this is Cable's force field, not Cable himself, so it would take more then boulders and fireballs to get through it. And I know that Cable's barrier can protect against heat too, because he has used it to protect a city against a nuke. While its powers are severely limited here, it does show that heat itself won't get through the shield. Now, it is possible for Toph to damage him, I'm sure. But she would need to be more creative then just chucking boulders.  
 
The War Machine scan is not above Tombstone's level of durability. He only takes one shot head on, which can be explained through his TO body parts, which have much higher durability then the rest of him.  
 
It is absolutely possible for Toph to toss Cable around inside his shield using her boulders. But she would not have a clear shot at him from a distance, and he is agile enough to avoid most direct attacks that he could see coming. Toph, on the other hand, would not be able to easily avoid, say, an arrow that is flying through the air at her head.
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#13 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio

I know little of Toph or Zuko so I will do my best. 
 
Boba Fett is actually pretty impressive in close combat.  
 
Firstly, he has reflexes that can tag Jedi. 

No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
At the age of 12, he also had a fight with Mace Windu. It was a long time ago since I read the book but iirc it ended in a stalemate and then Palpatine came in. But I recall Mace Windu going easy on him because he felt some sort of guilt for killing Jango. But despite him holding back, I remember that Boba Fett hit him a couple of times. And they were in pretty close close combat with each other as I recall.   
 
Also, I've been told that Boba Fett punched Jaina Solo in a training session. I have yet to read the book for myself. 
 
Plus, Boba Fett was trained by Jango Fett. The guy who killed 20 Jedi with his bare hands. 
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Unfortunately I don't have the entire fight. These scans were given to me by geraldthesloth for another tourney a while ago and these were all he had to offer. But I assure you he killed 20 Jedi.  
 
Now I know this doesn't necessarily mean that Boba Fett is as good as Jango in H2H combat. But just the fact that he was trained by him should count for something. 
 
So I think he can survive in close combat. 
 
Boba Fett has also dodged aim in a couple of occasions. 
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Just saying.  
 
Personally, I think this fight is going to end up in somewhat close distance. As both Ferro and Prodigy has mentioned, both can see each other's teams at along distances. However I could see reasons why the location of this battle isn't in Toph's and Zuko's favor.  
 
Firstly, this is a forest. Who said there were any boulders? The picture doesn't show any. Chances of there being boulders in a forest and there being a good stock of boulders are not significant. If there are some then Toph could throw them. Fine. But when Cable and Toph can realize where the opposite team is, it'll most likely be a pretty good distance. Meaning there will be plenty of trees slowing the boulders down when the boulders chop through them. Meaning Cable's shield Ferro mentioned could probably be able to withstand it because the boulder's momentum would have slowed down after getting hurled through so many trees. Also since the boulders would be slowed down Boba Fett and Cable could probably dodge them as well. So I don't think the boulder idea would work very well.  Heck given Cable's strength (being able to send Luke Cage flying), and precise aim (due to his eye), he should be able to shoot an arrow that would go at a very high speed. Toph can't sense things in midair right? Would she able to sense an arrow or be able to react in time to dodge an arrow at a very high speed? Could Zuko?  
 
Also there's the shield Ferro mentioned. Given the reasoning earlier, I don't think your team has enough firepower to take down his shields. And if not, then that gives us a chance to get in close for a kill. 
 
I would like to know the nature of Cable's shields. For instance could Cable aim with his bow while having the shield up or does it require concentration?
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#14 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Fetts: If he is multi-tasking then the shield would put a strain on him. And in fact, I think he would have to take the shield down in order to effectively fire an arrow, now that you mention it. I don't know for certain, but I am willing to accept it for the purpose of the thread.
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#15 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#16 Posted by IfDCRuledTheWorld (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

Let me first say it's awesome to see that everyone is contributing to this thread. Let's get started.

I "believe" that Toph can sense things in the air. Like stated before, her senses are similar to Daredevil's. I've seen her dodge rocks being thrown at her. Create an earth shield to protect her from arrows and thrown knives. She even shot out of the sky flaming cannonball type things shot from another ship. So I believe that she can sense things in the air that are not always earth.

A forest location is not a disadvantage either. As long as their is earth underneath her, she can create boulder or whatever she needs to defend herself. Close quarter combat for us is also not a disadvantage. How close would you want to fight a team that can shoot fire from his hands and mouth or manipulate the ground underneath you? So your best bet would be a long range attack. But sense we can see you from a distance as well you guys would lose that advantage as well. That's just how I see things. Thank you.

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#17 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida
@Fetts
 

Now, it is possible for Toph to damage him, I'm sure. But she would need to be more creative then just chucking boulders.


  
 
Hmm Maybe. Those Tombstone durability feats were good, but even he could take only so many hits from bathtub-sized rocks slamming into him. 
But, if Toph does have to get a bit more creative, that's not exactly a problem for her. She could cause earth to come up around Cable and encase him in a rock-cocoon. She could use the earth under his feet to launch him into the air. BFR wouldn't count, of course, but it would keep him occupied... and the landings would hurt too. 
When it comes to combat, Toph isn't exactly a one-trick pony. 
  

The War Machine scan is not above Tombstone's level of durability. He only takes one shot head on, which can be explained through his TO body parts, which have much higher durability then the rest of him.    


 
You've said that, for the purposes of this thread, Cable's force-field has been downgraded to only Tombstone-level. 
Now you're saying that, in the scan you posted, his TO body parts make for even more durability. 
So wouldn't the force-field and TO body parts combined make him more durable than Tombstone?  
 

But she would not have a clear shot at him from a distance, and he is agile enough to avoid most direct attacks that he could see coming. Toph, on the other hand, would not be able to easily avoid, say, an arrow that is flying through the air at her head.  


 
1) It seems like you're presenting a bit of a double-standard. Toph would not have a clear shot from a distance, but Cable would? 
2) Also, Toph blocked airborne projectiles constantly in the series. With the way her radar sense works, she can't sense the projectiles as it's in the air (unless it's a rock), but she can sense exactly where it is up until the moment of release. As far as I remember, the only times Toph was in danger from projectiles were when her attackers were airborne the entire time they were shooting.   
 
Oh, and I just thought of another point I hadn't considered before. Sherlock said the arrows we get are flint-tipped. So, basically, the arrowheads are made of stone. 
Somehow I don't see it working out well to shoot stone-tipped arrows at an earthbender. 
Not only would she be able to see the arrows after they are fired, but she'd probably be able to stop them in mid-air and redirect them wherever she wants.    
 

At the age of 12, he also had a fight with Mace Windu. It was a long time ago since I read the book but iirc it ended in a stalemate and then Palpatine came in. But I recall Mace Windu going easy on him because he felt some sort of guilt for killing Jango. But despite him holding back, I remember that Boba Fett hit him a couple of times. And they were in pretty close close combat with each other as I recall.


   
 
I can't say I've ever read that fight, but it sounds a lot like either PIS or Mace was holding back a LOT. One of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order, the one who (arguably) beat Palpatine in a fight, being stalemated by a 12-year-old? If Mace was unarmed, Boba was fully armed, and Mace was STILL holding back, that might be almost believable. 
  
 
 
 

Now I know this doesn't necessarily mean that Boba Fett is as good as Jango in H2H combat. But just the fact that he was trained by him should count for something.   


 
Only to a very small extent. Hawkeye was trained in hand-to-hand by Captain America, but he hardly has a single decent hand-to-hand feat to his name. Jus. saying...  
 

Boba Fett has also dodged aim in a couple of occasions.   


 
There's a difference between dodging the aim of a person holding a gun, and dodging the aim of people who throw fireballs and boulders the size of a small car.  
 

Firstly, this is a forest. Who said there were any boulders? The picture doesn't show any. Chances of there being boulders in a forest and there being a good stock of boulders are not significant. If there are some then Toph could throw them.  


 
Where there is earth, there are rocks. If the ground is soft, Toph may have to dig down a little to get to the particularly large chunks of stone, but they'll be there.  
 

But when Cable and Toph can realize where the opposite team is, it'll most likely be a pretty good distance. Meaning there will be plenty of trees slowing the boulders down when the boulders chop through them.  


 
This is one of the cool things about earthbending. Toph can manipulate earth pretty much anywhere she can sense it. She doesn't have be standing right on top of a boulder to lift it up and throw it. If there's a boulder 30 yards away from her that's at a better angle for throwing, she can pick it up from wherever she is, and throw it from there.  
 

Would she able to sense an arrow or be able to react in time to dodge an arrow at a very high speed? Could Zuko?    


 
The point about Toph reacting to arrows has already been replied to. 
As for Zuko, he wouldn't be in too much danger either. Even without his firebending, he is still among the most skilled fighters in the Avatar world (especially with swords). He once broke into a prison to rescue Aang, and they had to fight their way out. Aang had only airbending at the time, and Zuko was using only swords (no firebending at all), and the two of them fought their way through an entire army of guys with arrows, spears, swords, etc.  
 

Also there's the shield Ferro mentioned. Given the reasoning earlier, I don't think your team has enough firepower to take down his shields. And if not, then that gives us a chance to get in close for a kill.   


 
As Ferro already admitted, Cable's shield isn't going to be up even if he has to concentrate enough to fire an arrow. 
Additionally, durability of that level isn't impossible to get past. It may take a lot of boulders to do it, but Toph could knock him out if she can get enough shots on him. 
 
 
It's funny how this debate has basically turned into Boba and Cable vs Toph. Because of Ferro's point with Cable's shields blocking all heat, Zuko is hardly being considered anymore. 
But, even though Zuko may not be able to do much against Cable, he could still do plenty against Boba. 
Ferro said that, on his team, Cable would take the bow and arrows and Boba would take the sword and shield. I think my team would divide it up the same way. Toph would take the arrows (she's never fired a bow, but she can use the flint-tipped arrows as effective weapons) and Zuko would take the sword and shield. 
If Zuko attacks Boba, I don't think Boba would be able to win. He may be an exemplar hand-to-hand combatant, but as far as weapons go his specialty is guns, not swords. If he's ever even had significant training with a sword, I'm not aware of it. Zuko, on the other hand, is an absolutely stellar swordsman. And on top of that, he's basically a human flamethrower. You may be able to argue that Boba's shield and skill would keep him safe from the fire, but I honestly don't think that's true at all. In this scenario, Zuko would be more dangerous than he's ever been before. There were times in the series when he was willing to kill, but that was back when he was not a very good firebender. When he finally became a top-tier firebender, he had a change of morals and didn't fight to kill anymore. Now, in this scenario, he's a top-tier firebender and he's fighting to kill. 
Honestly, I think Zuko with a sword and shield would be a halfway decent match for Boba even if he couldn't firebend at all. With the firebending, I don't see Boba being able to last very long at all.
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#18 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

In case of TL;DR... 
 
Toph can hurt Cable. It would just take a little while. 
There's no point in shooting arrows at Toph. They're stone-tipped. 
Don't underestimate Toph's boulders. The terrain doesn't hinder her much. She can throw boulders from anywhere. And it's not like throwing boulders is the only thing she can do. 
Zuko may not be very effective against Cable, but he can beat Boba no problem. Superior swordsmanship and shoot-to-kill firebending FTW.

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#19 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))): 1) I didn't say Toph was a one-trick pony. I simply responded to the strategy that had been stated already. I would like to point out that whatever earth Toph does have to work with here is riddled with tree roots, so finding areas from which to get numerous bath-tub sized boulders would be kind of tricky. Yes, she could encase him in dirt, but he could easily expand his sheath in order to break out of that, or use the same tactic to soften his landing. 
 
2) I'm not going back and forth on that point. I was very open about the fact that his TO parts were more durable. The force field isn't physically part of Cable's body. It doesn't hurt him if you hit it. And his TO body parts are not as durable as Tombstone (Apocalypse was able to cut his arm off with a battle axe once. He reattached it afterwards). It is made of metal, and thus extremely durable. It is bullet proof, and it probably contributed to him taking that energy blast from War Machine. But it's not like other street-level characters haven't taken repulsor blasts before. Spider-man has and continued fight. Luke Cage has. All those scans really show is that he is capable of holding his own against a much more powerful opponent, and that he has a high pain tolerance (states me thinks he broke his hand with that punch). 
 
3) I didn't mean to say that Cable would have a clear shot right away. In fact, he wouldn't. I meant that if he got in closer to them he could see through potential cover to hit them. The point you brought up about the flint-tipped arrows is a good one. They would be useless to my team until Toph goes down. 
  
Let's say for a moment that right away our teams realize where the other is. That takes the mystery out of it and pretty much guarantees that this is going to be a close-range fight. When they meet Cable will quickly realize that his arrows are useless because of Toph. He'll view her as the bigger threat, so it's likely that he focuses on trying to take her down. Toph's smaller projectiles won't be able to make it through his shield, and he can evade her bigger ones, so he will eventually close the distance between them. She could potentially put up barriers, but most of the ones in the show were small enough that Cable can break them with his TO arm. If he can get in close, and it might take him a while to do that, I'm certain that he can put Toph down. He is a better, more experienced hand to hand fighter and she can be hurt just like any other human. 
 
The alternative to this is for Cable to fight Zuko. Zuko's only chance would be to hit him with a blast of fire great enough that Cable can feel the heat through the shield (possible, since it has been depowered). In hand to hand Cable is more then capable of holding his own.
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#20 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@IfDCRuledTheWorld said:

Let me first say it's awesome to see that everyone is contributing to this thread. Let's get started.

I "believe" that Toph can sense things in the air. Like stated before, her senses are similar to Daredevil's. I've seen her dodge rocks being thrown at her. Create an earth shield to protect her from arrows and thrown knives. She even shot out of the sky flaming cannonball type things shot from another ship. So I believe that she can sense things in the air that are not always earth.

A forest location is not a disadvantage either. As long as their is earth underneath her, she can create boulder or whatever she needs to defend herself. Close quarter combat for us is also not a disadvantage. How close would you want to fight a team that can shoot fire from his hands and mouth or manipulate the ground underneath you? So your best bet would be a long range attack. But sense we can see you from a distance as well you guys would lose that advantage as well. That's just how I see things. Thank you.

I respectfully disagree with your analysis of the tactics we would employ. Essentially, Cable would know fairly early on where you guys are (possible sooner then you would know where we are), but it doesn't change that we can't sneak up on you. We don't know your powers, and we won't know them until we get to you. Both of us are quick enough to evade your usual range attacks, which means this would quickly go to hand to hand fighting. And I say we would win that because neither of your have a sure-fire response to Cable's gravimetric sheath, and neither of you could take a direct hit from his TO arm.
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#21 Edited by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida:  

  I'm not going back and forth on that point. I was very open about the fact that his TO parts were more durable. The force field isn't physically part of Cable's body. It doesn't hurt him if you hit it. And his TO body parts are not as durable as Tombstone (Apocalypse was able to cut his arm off with a battle axe once. He reattached it afterwards). It is made of metal, and thus extremely durable.  


 
I'm sort of taking issue with this. I'm starting to think that, due to the rules of the tournament, Cable shouldn't have been allowed in. He has TO body parts that make him extremely durable (not as durable as Tombstone, but still very durable), and he has a personal force-field which is also as durable as Tombstone. Putting those two things together makes Cable more durable than Tombstone.  
 

 It is bullet proof, and it probably contributed to him taking that energy blast from War Machine. But it's not like other street-level characters haven't taken repulsor blasts before.   


 
Yeah, but how many street levelers have taken full-on blasts from motherf**king War Machine (who is basically Iron Man with better weaponry) and kept on fighting?    
 

Let's say for a moment that right away our teams realize where the other is. That takes the mystery out of it and pretty much guarantees that this is going to be a close-range fight  


 
Eh, sort of. Your team is going to have to fight their way through a crapload of ranged attacks to make it to close range. Cable, due to his possibly-rule-defying force field may be able to make it through, but I'm pretty sure Boba would die early.  
 

Toph's smaller projectiles won't be able to make it through his shield, and he can evade her bigger ones  


 
The big ones travel just as fast as the small ones. The chances of him avoiding them is less than his chances of avoiding the small ones. 
 
Also, doesn't Cable and his force-field have to be pretty much all-defense or no-defense? You said earlier that his force-field takes so much concentration that he probably wouldn't even be able to fire an arrow while the field was still up. So if his field is up protecting him, he really won't be able to do much at all. And any time he's trying to do anything offensive, his shield isn't going to be up. 
So he would be safe from any attack he sees coming. But, if somebody manages to blindside him with an attack while he's not defending himself, it wouldn't take much to take him down. And, since the fight is likely to be 2-on-1 (since I think Boba is going down early), Cable will be hard-pressed to do anything without being attacked from two directions at once.
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#22 Edited by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))): 1) His durability does not stack. If you hit him with something that can get through his shield then you have hit him with something that would hurt him without the shield. 
2) Are War Machine's blasts so much more powerful then Iron Man's? 
3) Explain to me exactly how we are going to be pelt with projectiles from one end of the forest to another. Yes, Toph has hurled rocks a relatively long distance before. But, as I recall, never in the middle of a forest. I imagine because it would be literally impossible for her to get a clear shot. If you have a problem with Cable's stuff, then please take it up with Sherlock. 
4) I said I would be willing to do that for the purposes of the thread. There's nothing in the comics saying that he can't don't what he normally does with his shield up. If he has the desire to fight with it up then, by golly, he could do that. Since I'm not firing any arrows anymore I don't feel the need to keep that stipulation.
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#23 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida:   

1) His durability does not stack. If you hit him with something that can get through his shield then you have hit him with something that would hurt him without the shield.  


 
I don't see how it wouldn't stack. Put a super-durable guy in a suit of super-durable armor, and he'll be able to tank even more damage than before. Wearing two bullet-proof vests will offer more protection than wearing one bullet-proof vest. 
You said yourself that the TO body parts probably contributed to Cable's ability to tank the shot from War Machine (indicating that the shield wasn't doing all the work). 
 

2) Are War Machine's blasts so much more powerful then Iron Man's?   


 
Slightly, I think. But that's not the point. I wouldn't call anyone a street leveler who could tank a blast from motherf**king Iron Man either.  
 

Explain to me exactly how we are going to be pelt with projectiles from one end of the forest to another. Yes, Toph has hurled rocks a relatively long distance before. But, as I recall, never in the middle of a forest. I imagine because it would be literally impossible for her to get a clear shot.   


 
As I've stated before, earthbending is not just picking up and throwing rocks. Toph can make rocks do basically whatever the heck she wants them to do. That could include making rocks change direction in mid-air. Or causing rocks that are far away from her to bend to her will. 
Saying she can't hit a target because there are obstacles in the way is like saying the same thing of a person with telekinesis. Or, better yet, Daredevil with telekinesis. 
 
Side note: Somebody should write a story where Daredevil gets telekinesis for a while. That would be boss.  
 

 I said I would be willing to do that for the purposes of the thread. There's nothing in the comics saying that he can't don't what he normally does with his shield up. If he has the desire to fight with it up then, by golly, he could do that. Since I'm not firing any arrows anymore I don't feel the need to keep that stipulation  


 
I see little difference between the concentration necessary for firing an arrow, and the concentration necessary for dodging boulders and fireballs from two different directions while trying to manuver into close combat with somebody. 
If anything, I'd say the latter would take a great deal more concentration. 
 
 
 
Funny how these 2v2 debates work out. This was supposed to be Ferro and Fetts vs Prodigy and IfDC debating over Cable and Boba vs Zuko and Toph. Now it's basically Ferro vs Prodigy debating over Cable vs Toph.
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#24 Posted by IfDCRuledTheWorld (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

I know, right? Those two aren't even your characters. Oh well.

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#25 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@IfDCRuledTheWorld said:

I know, right? Those two aren't even your characters. Oh well.

True, but I would have a hard time making a debate post for this battle that involved only how I think Zuko would fare.
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#26 Posted by Sherlock (7491 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@IfDCRuledTheWorld said:

I know, right? Those two aren't even your characters. Oh well.

True, but I would have a hard time making a debate post for this battle that involved only how I think Zuko would fare.
Im not expecting anyone to do that.The team up was just something to make this more original (And if someone didnt show then the other person could carry on no that that plan worked at all)
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#27 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

As a new point, I'm starting to wonder whether or not Cable would really be so immune to Zuko's firebending, even with the shield up. 
 
Cable, according to the rules of the tournament, is absolutely no more durable than Tombstone is. (So, even if the durability from his shield and TO parts stack, as it seems like they should, he still won't be any more durable than Tombstone is when the shield is up). 
Quote from Tombstone's bio page on this side: 
Tombstones epidermis also protects him from extreme temperatures that range from –80 degrees to 1200 degrees, and his body is insulated against electricity. 
 
Most standard military flamethrowers, according to the all-mighty Google, can exceed 1800 F. 
 
And comparing a simple flamethrower to Zuko's firebending is like comparing an MP5 to an AK-47 with FMJ. Or comparing Bing to Google. Or comparing Top Cow to Marvel. I'm having fun coming up with these comparisons... 
 
But yeah. You get the drift.

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#28 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#29 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))): Forgot about this. lol I'll reply asap.
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#30 Posted by Sherlock (7491 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
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#31 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
I'm fine with that. Roughly half Cable's body is made up of the TO virus, which is bullet proof and extremely durable. It is not more durable then Tombstone. He also has his gravimetric sheath, which I'm not even using to its fullest while it has been reduced to Tombstone's level of durability. 
 
My reasoning is that if Toph or Zuko could hit Cable with something heavy enough to breach his sheath then they would also be able to hurt him, since they have made it through a defence that is more durable then the TO virus.
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#32 Posted by Sherlock (7491 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
I'm fine with that. Roughly half Cable's body is made up of the TO virus, which is bullet proof and extremely durable. It is not more durable then Tombstone. He also has his gravimetric sheath, which I'm not even using to its fullest while it has been reduced to Tombstone's level of durability.  My reasoning is that if Toph or Zuko could hit Cable with something heavy enough to breach his sheath then they would also be able to hurt him, since they have made it through a defence that is more durable then the TO virus.
While i do agree with you i wanted to address it since NeXus asked me to (Though that was 3 days ago).Id like to get his imput on the whole thing as well and going by his last post it seems he may be able t work around it
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#33 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
I'm fine with that. Roughly half Cable's body is made up of the TO virus, which is bullet proof and extremely durable. It is not more durable then Tombstone. He also has his gravimetric sheath, which I'm not even using to its fullest while it has been reduced to Tombstone's level of durability.  My reasoning is that if Toph or Zuko could hit Cable with something heavy enough to breach his sheath then they would also be able to hurt him, since they have made it through a defence that is more durable then the TO virus.
While i do agree with you i wanted to address it since NeXus asked me to (Though that was 3 days ago).Id like to get his imput on the whole thing as well and going by his last post it seems he may be able t work around it
I should point out that if I wanted to I could utilize the gravimetric sheath to simulate telekinesis without breaking any rules.
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#34 Posted by Sherlock (7491 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
I'm fine with that. Roughly half Cable's body is made up of the TO virus, which is bullet proof and extremely durable. It is not more durable then Tombstone. He also has his gravimetric sheath, which I'm not even using to its fullest while it has been reduced to Tombstone's level of durability.  My reasoning is that if Toph or Zuko could hit Cable with something heavy enough to breach his sheath then they would also be able to hurt him, since they have made it through a defence that is more durable then the TO virus.
While i do agree with you i wanted to address it since NeXus asked me to (Though that was 3 days ago).Id like to get his imput on the whole thing as well and going by his last post it seems he may be able t work around it
I should point out that if I wanted to I could utilize the gravimetric sheath to simulate telekinesis without breaking any rules.
Technically you could but i wasnt going to let you use that power anyway
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#35 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
I'm fine with that. Roughly half Cable's body is made up of the TO virus, which is bullet proof and extremely durable. It is not more durable then Tombstone. He also has his gravimetric sheath, which I'm not even using to its fullest while it has been reduced to Tombstone's level of durability.  My reasoning is that if Toph or Zuko could hit Cable with something heavy enough to breach his sheath then they would also be able to hurt him, since they have made it through a defence that is more durable then the TO virus.
While i do agree with you i wanted to address it since NeXus asked me to (Though that was 3 days ago).Id like to get his imput on the whole thing as well and going by his last post it seems he may be able t work around it
I should point out that if I wanted to I could utilize the gravimetric sheath to simulate telekinesis without breaking any rules.
Technically you could but i wasnt going to let you use that power anyway
I know. I just wanted to point out that I am not trying to break the rules.
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#36 Posted by Sherlock (7491 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@Sherlock said:
@Ferro Vida: NeXus had some issues about cables durability which i feel we should address and i dont want to do anything without your imput
I'm fine with that. Roughly half Cable's body is made up of the TO virus, which is bullet proof and extremely durable. It is not more durable then Tombstone. He also has his gravimetric sheath, which I'm not even using to its fullest while it has been reduced to Tombstone's level of durability.  My reasoning is that if Toph or Zuko could hit Cable with something heavy enough to breach his sheath then they would also be able to hurt him, since they have made it through a defence that is more durable then the TO virus.
While i do agree with you i wanted to address it since NeXus asked me to (Though that was 3 days ago).Id like to get his imput on the whole thing as well and going by his last post it seems he may be able t work around it
I should point out that if I wanted to I could utilize the gravimetric sheath to simulate telekinesis without breaking any rules.
Technically you could but i wasnt going to let you use that power anyway
I know. I just wanted to point out that I am not trying to break the rules.
I know your not but as the person running the show here its my job to listen to complaints and try to remedy them as best i can
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#37 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock: I understand. I'll wait for Nexus to reply.
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#38 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally, I'm still not seeing how durability levels don't stack. 
If he has a shield that is as durable as Tombstone, then he's as durable as Tombstone. 
If you add on metal body parts to that, then he's more durable than Tombstone. 
That just makes sense to me... 
 
But I guess it doesn't matter much anyway. You don't think durability stacks, but you are still going with the idea that Cable is absolutely no more durable than Tombstone is. As long as we're on the same page there, I'm cool.

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#39 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless Cable's Gravimetric Sheath and TO components are at half strength, then Cable is technically at double the durability of Tombstone.

Think of it like this; it is like being naturally resistant to the cold and also wearing a coat that supplies the same cold resistance.

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#40 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin said:

Unless Cable's Gravimetric Sheath and TO components are at half strength, then Cable is technically at double the durability of Tombstone.

Think of it like this; it is like being naturally resistant to the cold and also wearing a coat that supplies the same cold resistance.

That's basically what I've been saying. Wearing a bulletproof vest over your bulletproof vest will give you twice as much protection against bullets. 
 
But, like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as we can agree on the fact that Cable can withstand absolutely no more damage than Tombstone would be able to withstand.
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#41 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Now if we could actually get some kind of debate going again...

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#42 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
Personally, I'm still not seeing how durability levels don't stack. If he has a shield that is as durable as Tombstone, then he's as durable as Tombstone. If you add on metal body parts to that, then he's more durable than Tombstone. That just makes sense to me...  But I guess it doesn't matter much anyway. You don't think durability stacks, but you are still going with the idea that Cable is absolutely no more durable than Tombstone is. As long as we're on the same page there, I'm cool.
The way I see it, if you hit me with something that is strong enough to get through his forcefield then you have hit him with something that is more then strong enough to hurt/put him down. Regardless of whether or not you agree with my reasoning, Sherlock does. My thinking means that even if what you said was the case it wouldn't matter for this thread since I am saying it will not stack. 
 
And I've done some more looking and Cable does not need to put his sheath down when fighting.
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#43 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@(((Prodigy))) said:
Personally, I'm still not seeing how durability levels don't stack. If he has a shield that is as durable as Tombstone, then he's as durable as Tombstone. If you add on metal body parts to that, then he's more durable than Tombstone. That just makes sense to me...  But I guess it doesn't matter much anyway. You don't think durability stacks, but you are still going with the idea that Cable is absolutely no more durable than Tombstone is. As long as we're on the same page there, I'm cool.
The way I see it, if you hit me with something that is strong enough to get through his forcefield then you have hit him with something that is more then strong enough to hurt/put him down. Regardless of whether or not you agree with my reasoning, Sherlock does. My thinking means that even if what you said was the case it wouldn't matter for this thread since I am saying it will not stack.  And I've done some more looking and Cable does not need to put his sheath down when fighting.
Ok. It seems I was making sort of a hullaballoo about nothing there. As long as we're both on the same page (the page that says Cable can withstand nothing that Tombstone wouldn't be able to withstand, no matter where his durability is coming from), then there's really no reason for me to argue about it. 
 Sorry for the debate derailment.
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#44 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))): No worries, I've been at comiccon and couldn't really reply anyway. 
 
Toph has had trouble hitting agile opponents with her Earth bending. Cable doesn't have any agility feats because he doesn't often need to be agile, but the ones he has are of a quality that makes me think he can avoid many of Toph's attacks.
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#45 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Zuko is roughly about as strong as Daredevil. 
Toph can use metalbending to put together a decent sledgehammer. 
 
/debate

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#46 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
Zuko is roughly about as strong as Daredevil. Toph can use metalbending to put together a decent sledgehammer.  /debate
Strength feats for Zuko? 
 
Wouldn't Toph need metal to bend?
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#47 Edited by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida:  

Toph has had trouble hitting agile opponents with her Earth bending. 


 
From what showings are you drawing that conclusion? 
She has trouble attacking people who don't touch the ground much (ie. "Twinkle Toes") due to her limited ability to sense them, but she's fought plenty of agile non-airbenders and come out on top. 
 
As an example, go to 2:10. 
  
  Dangit. Embedding is disabled. Stupid Youtube... 
Anyway, the dude performs an extremely agile leap into the air (rendering her completely unable to "see him anymore). But the very second his hand touches the ground, she can sense him perfectly again. And not only does she show good enough reaction timing to calmly dodge the attack he launches a split second later, but she retaliates with a powerful attack of her own before he even lands. 
 
For more showings of Toph's skills relevant to this battle... 
0:18 - hits a target who is behind cover (you've all been talking about her being unable to hit Cable and Boba with all the trees in the way...) 
1:11 - solos Mai and Ty Lee (both of whom are extremely agile characters) 
1:30 - how many of those would Tombstone be able to tank? 
3:02 - solos about half a dozen Di Lee agents (all of whom are earthbenders just like her, and have exceptional agility showings too) 
3:26 - extreme precision with radar sense and earthbending. Senses a porcupine a long distance away and launches it perfectly to land in her hand. 
3:42 - more Di Lee solo'ing 
  
   
 
 

Cable doesn't have any agility feats because he doesn't often need to be agile, but the ones he has are of a quality that makes me think he can avoid many of Toph's attacks. 


 
Well, I just showed some rather decent feats for Toph against agile people, and you just said yourself Cable doesn't even rely on agility that much. 
Personally, I think the evidence indicates he's going to be getting hit a lot. 
 
 
 
Plus, don't forget he's probably going to have to spend most of the fight dodging attacks from Toph and Zuko simultaneously (since I really don't think Boba is going to last very long at all). And I think I pretty much proved on the last page that Tombstone-level durability won't give him 100% protection against Zuko's firebending.
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#48 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@(((Prodigy))) said:
Zuko is roughly about as strong as Daredevil. Toph can use metalbending to put together a decent sledgehammer.  /debate
Strength feats for Zuko?  Wouldn't Toph need metal to bend?
I was just kidding. You know, the whole DD-ko's-Tombstone-with-a-sledgehammer major PIS thing... 
 
 
Buuuuut..... 
If Toph has enough arrowheads to use, she could form them into a sledgehammer. 
And Zuko isn't as strong as DD, but I'd say he's at least pretty close to general "Olympic level". 
 lol
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#49 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))): >_< I try to ignore that LOL I did love every other part of that arc. 
 
I can agree with Zuko's tentative strength level. And yes, I suppose she could. She would need a lot, though :P
 
I have two questions for you: How far is the range range of Toph's Earthbending sense, and how effective is her Earthbending in the forest?
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#50 Posted by IfDCRuledTheWorld (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

Guess we finally got past Cable's durability issues. Awesome. We would still win though. Swords, shields, and arrows are pretty much nothing special, especially in the Avatar world. Once you guys are in range Toph can easily manipulate the battlefield to our team's advantage. So unless you're gonna fight from the trees, we got this. Zuko's more than agile enough to dodge arrows and Toph can block arrows as well. After you guys run out of arrows, it all boils down to close combat. And in close combat, we got this.