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#51 Posted by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Apparently since their alliance was hidden, I couldn't know she was there to address in my first post, because . . . reasons.

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#53 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (16627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa: Was she invisible or something? I haven't read the main thread, but I think the thread should have looked something like this (which unlike team threads is a battle between 2 loners and 1 fodder) then ET could reveal that the two loners were actually a team. But then again, I have no idea what happened thus far so I should probably keep quiet.

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#54 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5385 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Kaine and Narberal both went for the same item. X-23 went for a different uncontested item, and then joined in unbenounced to Narberal on Kaines team once she got the item.

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#55 Edited by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: No, she'll just attack like Kaine.

He should have done it like a 1v1v1, then they revealed that they were together later, that'd make sense. This way is just really silly.

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#56 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (16627 posts) - - Show Bio
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#58 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (16627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa said:

@king_hellstorm: No, she'll just attack like Kaine.

He should have done it like a 1v1v1, then they revealed that they were together later, that'd make sense. This way is just really silly.

I don't see what's so complicated about this. Like @cdiddyman911 said I had X-23 go for something that wasn't contested by anyone,so the idea that it would be a free for all fight makes no sense at all. X-23 is able to join in this because Kaine is X-23's ally, but you didn't know because that wasn't publicly announced.

Okay guys, I didn't mean to start a whole discussion here. I was just confused (I was also confused as to why ET suddenly asked about some dragon feat but now I know why).

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#60 Posted by Streak619 (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: it's because the alliance was a secret when the thread was made I guess

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#61 Posted by Old_Blighty (829 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, this is why I like settling things in PMs instead.

Not gonna lie, it has helped peak my interest. I will vote if it comes to it.

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#62 Posted by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio
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#63 Posted by Old_Blighty (829 posts) - - Show Bio
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#66 Edited by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa: Just so I'm clear, what are you changing in your post? Cause I finished my counters to your post already.

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#67 Posted by Vertigo- (16281 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa: I’ll need to know as well, since I finished my counter post last night

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#68 Edited by SupahJD (254 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean.

I kinda like Laura came in after no where when the cocky "he won't be an issue" thing happened.

Gotta give props. That was smooth.

Tag me when ya vote.

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#69 Posted by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: @thewatcherking: @oldkingthanos: Then I'll let my post as it is and just make the second one. Adress the lightning on it, you can say why you think it's over the limits in yours.

We should all just delete all that discussion too.

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#70 Edited by Vertigo- (16281 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa:

We should all just delete all that discussion too.

I'm in agreement with that. I'll delete all my comments pertaining to the lighting

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#71 Posted by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#72 Posted by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Just a thing, is Laura's whole skeleton made of adamantium?

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#73 Posted by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14167 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine and X-23( @vertigo- & @thewatcherking)

No Caption Provided

X-23 Counters

Location

The place they're fighting isn't really the best for Kaine, there aren't many structures he can use to get up high with his webs or wall climbing. There are those trees, but they don't seem very tall.That'll be a huge problem, because as I said in the other thread, Narberal will be flying to grab the bulletproof armor. If she notices another person going for it, she can fly way up in the air, out of Kaine's reach, and keep attacking from there. His long-range attacks seem more limited than hers.

Maybe, but that hardly matters. I doubt she would just spam ranged attacks from a distance, but even so if she does use her flight to her advantage it won't change the outcome due to X-23.As soon as everyone is allowed to go after weapons of their choice X-23 will go for an assault rifle(which I do have) meaning X-23 can attack from a distance as well.

he might not have a lot of space to run around if she decides to pull a lot of AoE moves, might end up running into other players or going so far away that it's basically self BFR

I think it's quite obvious the other players outside of this fight aren't meant to play any factor here,so this is pointless to bring up.

nothing stops her from grabbing the armour and GTFO there.

Except ET has already confirmed that you can't do that the last time you asked.

No Caption Provided

You only get the item by beating our team, if you leave you've battlefield removed yourself and lost.

Nuke'em

For example, one of the most basic spells for Arcane magic casters, a fireball.Iguva=41, much weaker than Nabe in every way, was able to incinerate two giant mud monsters quite easily. This one could be extremely dangerous because, as far as I know, Kaine doesn't have a Spider-Sense. In that case, he might believe that just, say, sidestepping the fireball should be enough, and wouldn't be able to know that the thing would turn into a tornado of fire that can burn him to a crisp if he's anywhere near it.

Well I am not speaking for Kaine, but I can safely say that X-23 should be capable of tanking that as she already tanked a fireball from Fing Fang Foom back in All New Wolverine issue #9

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And if she is harmed at all it's no problem as X-23 can heal from it(although if this happens like I think it will Laura won't be hit with this at all).

That said I see no reason to think Kaine would only try to slightly sidestep a huge ball of fire, he could use his webbing as shield himself(similar to how he did in Ben Reilly:Scarlet Spider issue #3) so that more than likely won't do him in.

She also has electricity AoE attacks such as Electrosphere, that can instantly kill several people:

You yourself said the attack had a lot of AoE but that's it's DC wasn't quite as high. So how durable are those people so I can know how impressive that is?

If needed, she can use her strongest spell, Chain Dragon Lightning.

It spawns gigantic lightning dragons that can change direction in mid-air to strike their targets. It easily one shot two skeletal dragons, both extremely resistant to magic, and incinerated Khajit, the guy who could take an Electrosphere with just a few scratches.

There is no way this isn't above limits but I'll let the voters decide on that. However I will say that she more than likely won't use that right off the bat, and therefore won't get to do it at all before dying(I'll get into why she won't last long soon).

And if she feels like it, she can turn invisible so that he doesn't know where the next attack is coming from:

X-23 can easily detect her via smell/hearing, so useless.

Dying

If she keeps her distance, it seems his only method of attack is throwing webs at her. Even then, they should just bounce off her magic shield.

How fast was that projectile? I doubt it's as fast as webbing, or more importantly bullets so that isn't proof of anything really.

If he does manage to web her up or get close enough somehow, she can simply teleport away:

My partner already has gotten into Kaine's experience with teleporters but is there any reason she can't get blitzed? You gave no speed feats whatsoever(no durability feats either), so Kaine or X-23 could easily blitz and one shot her.

And even in a close combat fight, she shouldn't be that outmatched. Even though she's mainly a magic caster, her strength is ridiculous as well:

Considering she has no feats for durability/speed yet shown I can say her strength is hardly a factor.

Things to consider

Based on what you shown I have a hard time believing Kaine wouldn't win on his own. You shown your character is versatile,sure. But what durability feats does she have?What about speed? You shown nothing for her in those areas. That said Kaine doesn't have to win on his own as he has help.

As already said X-23 is going to be getting her weapon which means Kaine and Narberal would have already started fighting. This would actually help X-23 as I see it, that's because Narberal wouldn't be focusing on her at all.She doesn't know X-23 is allies with Kaine and didn't see her initially going for the armor so she wouldn't know that Laura will join the fight.With this in mind I'd like to point out that X-23 is not at all slow so she can easily get her gun and join Kaine while the fight is still very early on. There would be no point in disputing this or thinking otherwise, and ET outright confirms this.

Battle

How do I see the battle going? As I see it Kaine will be the one distracting Narberal, he has experience with teleporters and those with electrokinesis, and he actually has durability/speed feats so he should last just fine. This leaves X-23 coming in undetected by Neberal, and can literally just shoot her. You shown no bullet timing feats for her and we're legit fighting over a bullet proof suit so it makes sense to think that bullets can be a problem for your character. In case there is any doubt Laura has pretty good accuracy as proven in X-23:Target X issue #1

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What does this mean for you? X-23 can easily take down Neberal with Kaine serving as a distraction, although honestly I don't think I need it. Without blunt force durability feats Neberal can get one shotted by Kaine(and would get one shotted by X-23's claws regardless), and without speed feats there is literally nothing that will stop it from happening. I see no way for you to win this honestly, the only advantages you have are more ranged attacks and versatility I guess. But when facing two people who are faster than you and both of whom have the means to one shot you? I don't see why that matters, especially when you aren't even aware of one of the people's presence.

TLDR

  • You shown nothing for Neberal that suggests she can't be blitzed or one shotted by either team member
  • If you can't do that then you surely can't prove that X-23 can't drop her the second she gets her assault rifle.
  • Even without the gun or blitzing Neberal has no chance, she doesn't know that X-23 is joining the fight(as ET said she isn't a visible threat at first) so X-23 can catch her off guard and kill her.
  • Even if we ignore the fact that X-23 can go for an ambush Nebe shouldn't win, as without speed/durability feats she isn't lasting when this gets to be a close ranged fight.
  • Without durability feats I'd love to know why Kaine can't punch her head off.

Kaine Parker counters

Location counters

The place they're fighting isn't really the best for Kaine, there aren't many structures he can use to get up high with his webs or wall climbing. There are those trees, but they don't seem very tall.

That'll be a huge problem, because as I said in the other thread, Narberal will be flying to grab the bulletproof armor. If she notices another person going for it, she can fly way up in the air, out of Kaine's reach, and keep attacking from there. His long-range attacks seem more limited than hers.

Sure, Kaine only has one option, while Nabe has several, but frankly, she's going to have as much issue hitting Kaine as Kaine is hitting her. Also, Laura is picking up the assault rifle before coming to assist me, something Nabe has no idea about in game, but Kaine is fully aware of. Once Laura gets her hand on the gun, that situation changes

Also, in the original Hunger Games, all the items are stacked pretty close to each other. Even if here is different, they still shouldn't be particularly far away, and since there are other people fighting here as well, he might not have a lot of space to run around if she decides to pull a lot of AoE moves

Kaine will have lots of space to dodge and move around. He's got a whole field to play with, just look at the battle ground in the OP. Other contestants aren't playing a factor here, this much is obvious.

might end up running into other players or going so far away that it's basically self BFR and nothing stops her from grabbing the armour and GTFO there.

Kaine has no reason to actually run away.. And you can't grab the armor and book it. You should know this since you asked Thanos if you could do just that before this match even began, and he said that you have to fight me before you can have the armor, see post 119in the main thread to confirm this.

Nuke em'

guva=41, much weaker than Nabe in every way, was able to incinerate two giant mud monsters quite easily. This one could be extremely dangerous because, as far as I know, Kaine doesn't have a Spider-Sense. In that case, he might believe that just, say, sidestepping the fireball should be enough, and wouldn't be able to know that the thing would turn into a tornado of fire that can burn him to a crisp if he's anywhere near it.

You yourself just stated how to avoid this. Just don't be in it's AOE when it expands. And Kaine is a mobile fighter, all Spiders are. For reference, let's show multiple examples of Kaine using said agility in combat. Scans are from Scarlet Spiders issue 2, Scarlet Spider vol 2 17, SS vol 2 8, SS vol 2 7, in that order:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

So yeah, Kaine is constantly mobile while he fights. He's not staying in place while he's fighting here. This is avoidable due to Kaine's own in character fighting tactics

Let's do double duty here anyway. Kaine actually has experience dealing with fire users, even ones that use AOE attacks. Let's talk about Salamander, who Kaine fought when he first got to Houston, during the fight, he tried a decently sized AOE fire attack not unlike your fire spell, and Kaine used his webbing to block it in Scarlet Spider vol 2 issue 2:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She also has electricity AoE attacks such as Electrosphere, that can instantly kill several people:

Well, the massive downside to this is that there seems to be a massive charge up time for the attack. The light show is wonderful, but as far as the clip shows, the actual AOE isn't that potent, as it only killed the cultists a few feet away from her. Kaine can literally just use his webbing to zip away, out of the AOE of the attack

If needed, she can use her strongest spell, Chain Dragon Lightning.

Yeah no, there's not a chance in hell that this is within the limits. I still maintain that the attack is at minimum, above tank busting, since the Dragons themselves are massive, easily dwarfing the standard tank each, and that spell annihilated both of them. But I'll let the voters decide this.

Another downside to this attack is that it also has a decent sized charge up time, just count the time from when Nabe starts charging the spell, to when she actually unleashes the thing, that's easily well over a minute. And given that Nabe is more then likely dead as soon as Laura comes in to help, I don't see this working since it will only take Laura a few seconds to actually grab her rifle, then come over and help finish you. Furthermore, you've never shown Nabe starting off a battle using this attack, and this fight isn't lasting very long, so the odds of this being a factor, even if the voters decide that it's within limits is very small.

And if she feels like it, she can turn invisible so that he doesn't know where the next attack is coming from:

Laura's senses should help with that, specifically her enhanced smell or hearing. Furthermore, the instance you posted doesn't seem to be a combat showing, and she was given instruction from Ainz beforehand. Do you have evidence to show that she'd use it on her own, in a combat instance? I know she isn't stupid, but every character has mannerisms and preferences in combat. The rules state that while everyone is willing to kill, they're all still in character

Not dying

If she keeps her distance, it seems his only method of attack is throwing webs at her. Even then, they should just bounce off her magic shield.

And if she keeps her distance, she's basically playing keep away and can't win like that. Furthermore, you haven't shown any blunt force or piercing resistance feats for this shield, so, featwise, Kaine could actually just shatter it with a punch for all I know, or even a bullet from Lauras gun should be able to shatter it. There's not reason not to believe that, based on the feats you've posted here. So really, that shield is useless here, it best, it's a very very breif stalling tactic.

If he does manage to web her up or get close enough somehow, she can simply teleport away:

So, now you need to show that she'd do that, instead of worrying about the webbing that would be all over her, like on her mouth, or on her face, blinding her like lots of other characters do when webbed up. She wouldn't be able to see and would find it hard to move. Also, you need to prove that she'd be able to do this before Kaine or Laura can close the distance and slice her, keep in mind that all either need is a headstab and it's GG no re.

And even in a close combat fight, she shouldn't be that outmatched. Even though she's mainly a magic caster, her strength is ridiculous as well:

This amounts to nothing more then a strength showing. This does not prove that she has the speed or the skill to compete with Laura or Kaine. Kaine has taken on a group of super powered assassins, like guys with super speed, teleportation and super strength, on top of taking on guys like Wolverine (who should need no introduction). All this proves is that she can hit hard, not that she can hit them to begin with. As for what you've shown here, the only thing speed wise she has going for her is teleportation, her own raw speed is non-existent,, while both Kaine and Laura's speed has been well established, they can dance around Nabe in close quarters as far as feats are concerned. Heck, either Kaine or Laura are more then capable of blitzing and one shotting her. You've shown no durability feats for her whatsoever, and Kaine uses his speed to quickly close distance when he feels like it, such as in Scarlet Spider vol 2 issue 1:

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I can't say that I'm a huge expert on Kaine, but from what I've seen Nabe should win without much trouble, her powerset should mean that he can't do anything to her, while she can attack him one-sidedly.

The only thing you've proven is that you can keep the fight at a distance, not that you can take us down, and your own attacks are gonna have massive difficulty tagging either Kaine or Laura, meanwhile, we've established that we can take you down and actually kill you, and the lack of feats for your defense just seals it.

Conclusion

Frankly, Kaine alone is a handful for Nabe, given his overwhelming speed advantage and experience dealing with everything Nabe brings to the table here. Kaine has the means to actually win this alone, albeit in a decent fight. The only thing Nabe has over Kaine is versatility, but frankly, you haven't actually shown that Nabe has the capabilities to take down Laura or Kaine. You've posted no speed feats, and no durability feats in your previous post, which leads me to believe that she can be one shotted by Kaine, should he get the chance, and he has the means to actually make that happen

As if all of this weren't bad enough, but Nabe has no idea that this is actually a 2v1, so she can actually be taken completely by surprise when she has a second combatant to deal with, there's no reason to believe that Nabe is fast enough to dodge gunfire, and there's no reason to believe that Nabe's shield won't get blown to smithereens the second a bullet hits it, while the next bullet goes through her skull. Heck, Laura can just turn and headshot her as soon as she picks up her gun, she's a great shot, as TWK will show and Nabe has 0 way to remotely suspect that this will happen.

Kaine and Laura have way too many advantages here not to win this match. We have better speed, better skill, and a much stronger defence, as well as the element of surprise.

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#75 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14167 posts) - - Show Bio

Narberal(@jucaslucasa

No Caption Provided

How the fight will be like:

Although your characters have some very good feats, this is not quite the kind of enemy they should be good against. My strategy remains the same.

Just in case you guys mention it, no, Nabe wouldn't go to close range, ever. She only fought against the Skeletal Dragon up close because her master prohibited her from using any strong spells. The dragons were immune to any weak spells, so she had to resort to beating them up with a weapon. When she teleported to Khajit to stab him, her master had ordered her to show their enemies their true power, so she wanted to further humiliate the guy by making it obvious she could just stab him to death but chooses to annihilate him and his dragons, who he thought were immune to magic, with a spell he didn't even think humans could cast (she's not human, but you get the point).

Here though? Life's on the line, against two unknown enemies. Her master already ordered her to always be cautious of people she doesn't know. Fighting at long range while keeping the enemies away is how magic casters are supposed to fight anyway.

So, the question remains, can they hit her? Well, I don't think so, both Kaine and Laura are primarily close range fighters, their long-range capabilities are extremely limited. Kaine could launch webs, sure, but they should just bounce off her shield, as I already stated. She can simply fly a little to the side to evade it as well.

Even if it does manage to hit her body, there's teleportation to get free of it. So, webbing isn't going to help a lot.

I mean, I guess they could try to jump or launch each other at her, but that's easily dodgeable either by flight or teleportation and just leaves them vulnerable while they fall and can't maneuver in mid-air, might get a spell to the face.

Really, your only chance of damaging her while she's up in the sky is that little thing Laura got before getting here . . .

Doctor, Who?

So, Laura did get a weapon before going to this fight, and through my advanced time traveling skills, I was able to bring this screenshot here so we could all take a look at it since they never mentioned it in their first post:

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The scan's title is "get shot", quite funny . . .

Now, that's a weapon that can reach her. But can it harm Nabe enough to kill her? Well, I don't think so.

First off, she's got defensive spells around her body that can protect her from the bullets. To give you an idea:

Whoosh! Narberal’s field of view changed dramatically as an ear-splitting impact rang out. She was tossed to the side.

She experienced a brief period of weightlessness before falling heavily to the ground. Her left arm had taken a tail sweep from one of the Skeletal Dragons.

The non-stop spinning disoriented her and she had no idea where she was. Her body was protected by all manner of defensive spells, so there was no pain. However, the two Skeletal Dragons raised their forelegs over Narberal.

Volume 2

A tail swipe from the superhumanly strong, building-sized Skeletal Dragon does no damage. Sure, she got sent flying, but it was an attack she didn't see coming, she's not super heavy or anything, so an attack that she can't brace herself for is obviously going to move her quite a bit.

A hit from a giant dragon should pack quite a bit more force than a bullet, especially since it was further amped by support spells, so it was even stronger than what its size would make it look like.

Khazit ignored Narberal’s mockery and continued casting spells.

“「Reinforce Armor」,「Lesser Strength」,「Undead Flame」,「Shield Wall」.”

He cast buff after buff on the Skeletal Dragon.

Now the Skeletal Dragon’s bony body was sturdier, stronger, and wreathed in life-draining black fire. It even had an invisible barrier in front of it whicha acted like a shield.

Volume 2

And even if her body is actually pierced, it shouldn't hurt much. For example, getting stabbed by magical knives does no damage:

The drill-haired maid threw her knives. They travelled in a lazy arc and struck Nabe’s body.

”Kyaa—”

As Nabe let out a deadpan cry of pain, she followed after the maid that had been blown away. Entoma pursued her silently

Volume 6

She had to pretend to get hurt for the purpose of their mission, it didn't actually harm her in any way. Mind you, those were knives from Narberal's teammates, and for all of them, metals like adamantium are soft, so those knives were no joke. And although Overlord's adamantium is nowhere near as durable as Marvel's, it's still several orders of magnitude more durable than steel.

And, really, even if they do get inside her body or head, it might not actually do that much. See, Nabe isn't human, she is a doppelganger. Her true form is like Pandora's Actor's:

No Caption Provided

And egg-shaped head with 3 holes in it, that's why one of her titles is "Egg-shaped Battle Maid". Due to their non-human, heteromorphic nature, there might not be a brain behind those holes (it'd probably just fall off through the holes everytime she moved). Or any organs or blood in their body for that matter. This is how they transform:

No Caption Provided

Clothes are part of the body, and they seem more like a bunch of fat in a human shape, kinda like a slime thing. Considering her sisters consist of a werewolf, a dullahan, a robot, a slime and a giant cockroach, this seems to fit the theme, not having those human weaknesses is common among Heteromorphs in the game.

Now, sure, a hole in her head would still damage her, but it's most likely not an instant death like with humans. If she gets her hurt at any point, she can just use healing magic:

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Even a super weak healing spell like Slight Cure Wounds can heal a severed arm in seconds, and the guy casting is way weaker than Nabe in every way.

In the end, I don't see bullets getting through Nabe's shields, durability, and non-human nature.

Just keep nuking 'em:

Starting with Kaine since Laura only arrives after getting the gun.

Now, his speed is surely extremely impressive, but I don't think that's quite enough. Sure, he can evade bullets left and right with ease, but he only needs to make some small movements to dodge them, goes around doing flips and they never touch him. That is enough to dodge most things, but when you're facing AoE spells, you need something better than that.

For example, in this scan, Kaine evades gunfire with ease, but the (I assume) human shooters can till keep track of him and shoot in his general direction. Although he's dodging the bullets, the speed at which he's moving towards them doesn't seem absurdly impressive, and that's the kind of thing he needs to dodge these spells.

And even if he can evade the AoE, remember, he doesn't know what Nabe can do. He can see her throwing a fireball and believe that just making sure that it doesn't directly hit him should be enough, sidestep it or do a fancy flip and it's all good. Then a tornado of fire appears behind him, and he's dead. Really, she could kill her in one move if he does that, and I don't think that's particularly unlikely. Haven't seen anything suggesting he could survive it, not without his suit anyway.

Regarding Laura, it's mostly the same. She does have a rifle, and bullets should be annoying enough for Nabe to focus on her a little more. Her speed is nice and all, but it's basically the same as Kaine, great combat speed, a bunch of flips, AoE is still a bitch.

Her healing factor does save her from a quick death though, but as shown in your scans of the facility exploding, she can't heal instantly from getting her whole body burnt, takes a while, and both fire and electrical attacks can replicate that sort of thing. While she's down healing, Nabe can keep spamming spells on her until she dies, take 10 fireballs to the face and you're not getting up anytime soon. Even if she doesn't die, she's effectively out of the fight.

While firing her weapon, she'd have to stop and aim, so that's when she gets vulnerable to a spell to the face. A single spell that hits her should also hit the gun, toasting it in the process.

It ain't tank busting . . .

In Overlord there are 12 tiers of magic, 0 through 10, and Super Tier called 11th tier by a few.

In the world Nabe's guild was transported to, even the strongest humans can only cast 6th tier magic, and as such, the Skeletal Dragons, who are completely immune to 6th tier magic and below, were considered completely invincible against magic casters.

Then Nabe appeared and killed two of them with a 7th-8th tier spell, Chan Dragon Lightning:

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Now, my opponents seem to think that this attack is above tank busting in terms of power, and that wouldn't be allowed by the rules of the game, but it isn't, and here's why.

Sure, they're about the size of a small building and are further enhanced by multiple spells, but they're still bones, human bones, the only reason they can stay standing is that they've got negative energy keeping those bones together.

The thing is, she didn't completely destroy them, there were still bones intact all around the place:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And the same way that you don't have to completely annihilate a human to kill them (just damage their body enough and they're dead), the same can be said to these dragons. They might not bleed out if you cut them, and not die instantly if you attack the non-existing brains in their skulls, but if you hit them hard enough all that negative energy is going to leave the body, and then they're just a pile of bones.

The lightning discharges were wider than her arms, and they struck the Skeletal Dragons. The vast white buddies shuddered from the impact. The twin lightning blasts wrapped around the Skeletal Dragons’ bodies, burning the false life that animated their corpses out of existence.

Description of the novel - Volume 2

That's what she did, hit them with a spell they couldn't nullify, then their HP went to zero, and all the bones were sent flying around. In fact, Skeletal Dragons are fairly low-level beings, their only trump card is their magic resistance, their HP isn't particularly high. If you manage to get past their durability (in the case of a physical blow) or their magic resistance (in the case of a spell) killing them isn't that hard, that's why I highlighted their resistance to lightning in my first post, not any physical attribute. Nothing "tank-busting" about that.

And even without all that, they don't have any feats that make them as durable as a tank, size isn't everything.

Now, if she were to cast that spell on a tank, would it melt it a bit? Sure. Fry anyone inside? Absolutely. Bust the whole thing? No way.

. . . but it still gotta hurt.

Even though it's not powerful enough to be above the rules here, it's still pretty damn strong. Skeletal Dragons were unaffected by lightning bolts and Electrospheres, and Khajit, the guy who got straight up incinerated, could take an Electrosphere with only a few scratches, their lightning resistance was pretty good.

And the best thing is, the spell flies around to strike its targets. When Nabe used it, it went down to face the Skeletal Dragons, forward to destroy them, them up in the air before going down to hit Khajit. It has a homing ability of sorts, it can recognize the enemies and fly towards them.

The two arcs of dragon-shaped lightning seemed to be searching for their quarry, then they raised their heads and sprang at their final prey. Khajit’s vision was obliterated in a sea of white.

Description of the novel - Volume 2

If Parker tries to dodge them the same way he did in the scan Vertigo- showed, by jumping up in the air, the Dragon Lightning can change direction and hit him from behind while he's in mid-air and unable to maneuver around, then he's dead. Laura should be mostly the same, I assume this can kill her. If it can't, well, she'll be down for a while and won't be a threat.

This is only if they manage to evade her weaker spells a few times first though.

Speed:

I don't think this is particularly needed, if she's up in the air she has a clear line of sight on them, and it's just a matter of throwing AoE and homing attacks at their general direction until they're dead.

But speed is everything on the Vinez, so . . .

Nabe herself, like most magic casters in the story, doesn't have any outstanding speed feat, mages are more like the "can't move as fast as everyone else, but still keeps up" type.

To give you an idea of what someone who is comparable to Nabe can do, here is Yuri Alpha, her sister, moving her whole body faster than what the eye can see:

'You deserve praise for that! What a splendid set of resistances!'

Alpha’s answer was to blur into a haze. As though she had performed a short-range teleport, she materialized in front of Evileye and kicked her in the face.

Volume 6

Really, moving your entire body so fast that the human eye can't see is considerably above most bullet timing feats, the body is much larger than a bullet after all, so being unable to be seen through sheer speed is just insane. Now, Nabe isn't as fast Yuri, who's a close-range fighter, but they were (literally) created to fight alongside each other in battle, so Alpha can't be that much faster. Nabe's is also level 63, while Yuri is 51 (mind you, being 10 levels higher than your opponent means that their chance of beating you is really, really low), so Nabe can certainly keep up with that kind of speed.

No concrete feats, sure, but that's what happens when you're dealing with a side character of a video-game based book. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Take that as you wish.

Conclusion:

By using my advanced time traveling skills I was able to take a look at some of the scans you'll be using in your second post, and I don't see much that can help them here. They're just two close ranged fighters taking on a flying wizard, not the best mix. Even with Laura arriving later with her gun that I wouldn't even know about without looking through their image profiles my time travel, their chances are still not the best.

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#76 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14167 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting open. You Vote for the last convincing argument or who you think dies

1.@supremegeneration - Percy Jackson

2.@revan- Mimic

3.@fc_tsukihanami - Scary Monsters Diego Brando

4. @boschepg - Kraven

5. @warlockmage - 616 Wolverine

6. @supahjd - Wade Wilson(Curse revoked)

7. @cdiddyman911 - Cain

8.@darthjhawk - Bucky Barnes

9. @sawed_off_it - Lucario

10. @higherpower- Baam

11. @chronicplane - Greedling(Ling Personality) Arms only.

12.@jooosh1996 - Albert Wesker

13. @streak619 - Meleron

14.@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps - Wendy Marvell

15 @all-father - Iron Fist(70s to 90s chi)

16. @ugivemethelulz - Composite Rai

17. @the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk - joseph joestar

18. @lubub55 - Adam Jensen

19. @kingcrimson - Black Reaper Ken Kaneki

20. @gearsecond659 - PTS Rock Lee Compostie

21. @vertigo- Kaine

22. @maalik - PTS Sasuke(No Curse Mark)

23. @jucaslucasa - Nabe

24. @_kingoflatveria - Deathstroke

25. @believer - Ultimate Red Skull

26. @hypnos0929 - Marcel Gerard

27. @red_ruby_petal - Solid Snake

28. @geekryan - Psylocke(No Omega)

29. @thewatcherking - X- 23

30. @primez0ne -Atsushi Nakajima

31. @elijah_c_washington - Akari Hizamaru

32. @just_banter - Sayaka

33. @higorm - archer

@old_blighty

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#77 Posted by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#78 Posted by Streak619 (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for Kaine and Laura.

Mainly because Nabe recieved some good durability feats and healing feats.

Jucaslucasa quite throughly depicted why Kaine, or Laura for that matter wouldn't be able to avoid AOE attacks.

He proved that whatever little long range offense they had stood no chance killing Nabe with her shields and healing.

Whereas Nabe stands an overwhelming chance of destroying the two using AOE attacks, where combat speed is useless.

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#79 Edited by TheDeputy (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: It sounds like you are voting for Nabe.

EDIT: Oh right the worse debater is who you vote for.

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#80 Posted by geekryan (1868 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for Kaine and Laura.

Mainly because Nabe recieved some good durability feats and healing feats.

Jucaslucasa quite throughly depicted why Kaine, or Laura for that matter wouldn't be able to avoid AOE attacks.

He proved that whatever little long range offense they had stood no chance killing Nabe with her shields and healing.

Whereas Nabe stands an overwhelming chance of destroying the two using AOE attacks, where combat speed is useless.

I agree with this.

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#81 Posted by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: @geekryan: Can you guys explain a bit more? I mean were you convinced that Nabe could react to bullets by her scaled feat, or that she would know about X-23 joining the fight?

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#82 Posted by Just_Banter (12144 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: Kaine and X-23 die.

I'll leave aside the gun for the first part and touch on it later so don't think I haven't read the last posts. So, going off the things shown, physically, Kaine and X-23 have no way to touch her, ever. Sure, they're faster. Sure, they're stronger. Sure, they could probably one shot her if they hit her. But she is flying in the air, and there isn't anything around Kaine or X-23 to enable them to close that gap (like a building, or something). The only way to reach her would be either throwing themselves towards her or launching webs up at her. Neither of these would work. Firstly, the webs. The only real feat shown for tagging someone with the webs was against someone 5 metres away, on the ground, and talking to Kaine. That shows us nothing. How are we supposed to assume that:

  1. They can reach the distance consistently to tag Nabe
  2. They can move fast enough for her not to be able to teleport somewhere else, thereby easily avoiding them
  3. They can get through her shields

Simply put, we can't, making the webbing strategy a bust. Secondly, the launching, and well, that's an even worse strategy than the webbing. Admittedly, though, the pair didn't say they were going to throw each other at Nabe, so this is just conjecture on my part, but it was the only other way they'd be able to reach her (apart from the gun, obviously). All of the pairs one-shot potential rests in CQC, but Jucas pointed out several times that he has absolutely no intentions of ever going into CQC in the first place, and since they can't reach him in the air before he simply teleports away from them, they're not gonna get a chance to flex those one-shot muscles.

Moving on, the whole tank busting debate. It seemed to me that the main argument for the move being above tank busting was that it destroyed some things that are larger than a tank. To be blunt, that doesn't mean it's tank busting. Like, at all. Unless we're talking continental sized things, size has very little to do with how durable something is. For example, Superman is smaller than a tank, does that mean a tank is more durable? No. Why? Because Superman's durability feats greatly eclipse a tank. Simple. Well, here, a tanks durability completely eclipses the dragon's durability. And unfortunately, the amount of time the team spent trying to prove it was tank busting meant that they didn't counter the ability at all, and this leads me to believe that they couldn't counter it, hence the arguments. Heck, even an "it's over the limits but just in case he's how we'd survive anyway" section wouldn't go amiss. In terms of 'countering' the ability, the pair just put all their eggs in one basket and one-sidedly assumed that the audience was of the same opinion as them, which is disappointing as they should have known that not everyone agrees as they were told that at least one of the co-hosts didn't believe the ability was above tank busting in the first place.

Now onto the gun. I did find it extremely unusual that the assault rifle - which read as the crux of the pairs second post strategy - wasn't so much as mentioned in the first post and only showed up after Jucas employed his "you can't fight me in CQC" strategy, but I'll leave that aside. As far as I'm concerned, the gun is literally the only way for Nabe to be tagged by anything in the pairs arsenal; however, I don't think it's enough to take her down. As for why I think this, that's in Jucas' second post which I think solidly countered the plan that the pair needed to almost utterly rely on to beat her. Whether it can get through her shields or not is debatable, but even so, she's tanked similar attacks before while having to act badly so it looked like she got injured, and can just heal the damage if she does happen to get hit. Plus, the whole standing still to shoot at her bit did lead me to believe that X-23 going to shoot Nabe would leave her pretty open to being blasted.

Of course, the pair did dive heavily into agility, and their means to dodge the regular attacks that Nabe has (even if they didn't touch on dodging her big one) and it was quite convincing; however, that only serves to lead to a war of attrition, and repeatedly acrobatically dodging attacks is going to be more draining then just sitting up in the air, occasionally teleporting and lobbing down AoE attacks. The way I see it is as so: the pair will dodge well at the start, but as they can't hit her and she can hit them, they'll inevitably get tagged eventually, at which point it's all downhill. X-23's healing factor is helpful, but it can also be taxed, so at best she's just going to last a little bit longer.

In conclusion, the only reliable method the pair had to harm Nabe was the rifle, but that was sufficiently countered in my eyes. On the other hand, however, was the fact that Nabe could utilise almost the entirety of her powerset without resistance due to how she chose to fight. Simply put, the odds just weren't in the pair's favour.

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#83 Posted by Streak619 (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: one of the reasons watcher lost is because he didn't get a chance to counter the points that saved Jucaslucasa, which isn't really fair.

I suggest making a rule where you bring all the feats you will use in your first post only, cause this win pretty much a cop out.

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#84 Posted by Streak619 (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: @geekryan: Can you guys explain a bit more? I mean were you convinced that Nabe could react to bullets by her scaled feat, or that she would know about X-23 joining the fight?

I never mentioned anything about speed, regardless whether she is fast enough to react to it or not.

She has defensive spells that allowed her to no sell amped dragon tailed swipes:

The non-stop spinning disoriented her and she had no idea where she was. Her body was protected by all manner of defensive spells, so there was no pain. However, the two Skeletal Dragons raised their forelegs over Narberal.

And healing greater than spells that healed limbs in seconds.

Clearly, bullets aren't doing the trick.

Which debunks your entire chance and argument for winning.

As for knowing about Laura, she's howering in the sky. There is no way she wouldn't notice Laura trying to join the fight.

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#85 Edited by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: I won't argue with a voter so I will just say what I have to say in hopes of clarification and stop.

She has defensive spells that allowed her to no sell amped dragon tailed swipes:

Jucas never said she would activate those in his first post(when the fight starts), so she would have to do it before getting shot in the head.

And healing greater than spells that healed limbs in seconds.

I mean, an arm isn't a vital organ like the brain so I don't know how that proves anything as she would have to be alive to activate those spells.

There is no way she wouldn't notice Laura trying to join the fight.

ET had said Laura wouldn't be a visible threat at first, so I'd assume her back would be to Laura.

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#86 Posted by Streak619 (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Of course he didn't mention it his first post. He brought it up in his second post, so you wouldn't be able to counter it.

Also my point is this:

Amped dragon bone tail swipes couldn't even damage her defenses let alone force her to use regen.

You really expect me to believe that bullets will get past both of them?

And like I said. She's up in the air and will see Laura approaching her.

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#87 Posted by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: You missed the point of what I said but okay, thanks for voting.

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#88 Posted by SupahJD (254 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting that Nabe loses here. Will post my reasoning later.

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#89 Posted by Old_Blighty (829 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos:

This feels very off/unfair. Surely the duo should be able to counter these arguments?

Key word: counter.

I don't mean let them add to their post, simply let them defend against the new info.

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#90 Edited by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Nabe, because the main point that Jucas to win/escape was purposefully brought up in the last post, which is kinda underhanded. All points should be brought up in the first post, and expounded upon in the second.

And Jucas said FTE is faster than bullet timing. Which is just ridiculous.

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#91 Posted by TheDeputy (117 posts) - - Show Bio
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#92 Posted by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

Jucas never said she would activate those in his first post(when the fight starts), so she would have to do it before getting shot in the head.

I did

That'll be a huge problem, because as I said in the other thread, Narberal will be flying to grab the bulletproof armor.

In that link, I say that she'll be activating her flight and defensive spells. It was there, just read it.

To everyone, regarding the new info: they never mentioned the rifle in their first post, I wouldn't be able to counter it if I hadn't found that screenshot, and they even had Laura appear outta nowhere while I couldn't even mention her in my first post. I was actually wondering if it'd be fair to add new stuff (I didn't think I'd need those feats in my first post because she was just fighting Kaine at the time), but since they'd be doing that as well, I assumed it was all fair. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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#93 Posted by Old_Blighty (829 posts) - - Show Bio

@revan-:

I kinda agree with your first point (hence why I believe the duo should be allowed to counter it), but since they only got two posts each and an argument could be made that Jucas didn't add this because he thought he wouldnt need it (since he thought he had only the one opponent). I am less keen to attack him like I would someone who had waited after more posts and had had full info.

Your second point is simply wrong. FTE is faster than bullet timing. However, I can understand why you would argue against. Writers overuse the term so much and simply don't understand how fast something legitimately FTE is. This is why the term isnt taken seriously (not that it should be here).

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#94 Posted by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa:

In that link, I say that she'll be activating her flight and defensive spells. It was there, just read it.

That wasn't a CaV post so I didn't look at it, if that was part of your argument you should have said it somewhere in your actual post.

Regardless I don't think we need to keep adding to what was said for obvious reasons.

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#95 Edited by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

That wasn't a CaV post so I didn't look at it, if that was part of your argument you should have said it somewhere in your actual post.

I did mention it in my post, put the link there to where I had said before that I'd be using those spells, it's part of my argument. If I just mentioned it in my post without the link people would think that she only used the spells when the fight began

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#96 Edited by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa: Once again, you didn't say it IN your post. You linked to something you said outside of your post and I didn't look at it because if it was important you would have said it somewhere in your post or at least brought it up when you were doing your conclusion.

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#97 Posted by Jucaslucasa (10912 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Links are part of the posts as well, is a scan invalid if we link it?

It wasn't important, not at that point. I didn't need those for Kaine, they were only to take Laura's bullets, and, by ET's ruling, I wasn't allowed to mention her in my first post. That's why I only mentioned their feats now, but I had already said they'd be there.

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#98 Edited by TheWatcherKing (15660 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa:

Links are part of the posts as well, is a scan invalid if we link it?

I merely told you why I didn't look at it, which was because I thought you would have said it in your actual post if it was important.

It wasn't important, not at that point. I didn't need those for Kaine, they were only to take Laura's bullets, and, by ET's ruling, I wasn't allowed to mention her in my first post. That's why I only mentioned their feats now, but I had already said they'd be there.

He also said she wasn't aware of Laura presence but again, we don't need to be discussing this while this is still open for voting.Doing so will likely change the opinions of the voters, which isn't necessary if you debated better.

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#99 Edited by Sawed_Off_It (12467 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_banter said:

@oldkingthanos: Kaine and X-23 die.

I'll leave aside the gun for the first part and touch on it later so don't think I haven't read the last posts. So, going off the things shown, physically, Kaine and X-23 have no way to touch her, ever. Sure, they're faster. Sure, they're stronger. Sure, they could probably one shot her if they hit her. But she is flying in the air, and there isn't anything around Kaine or X-23 to enable them to close that gap (like a building, or something). The only way to reach her would be either throwing themselves towards her or launching webs up at her. Neither of these would work. Firstly, the webs. The only real feat shown for tagging someone with the webs was against someone 5 metres away, on the ground, and talking to Kaine. That shows us nothing. How are we supposed to assume that:

  1. They can reach the distance consistently to tag Nabe
  2. They can move fast enough for her not to be able to teleport somewhere else, thereby easily avoiding them
  3. They can get through her shields

Simply put, we can't, making the webbing strategy a bust. Secondly, the launching, and well, that's an even worse strategy than the webbing. Admittedly, though, the pair didn't say they were going to throw each other at Nabe, so this is just conjecture on my part, but it was the only other way they'd be able to reach her (apart from the gun, obviously). All of the pairs one-shot potential rests in CQC, but Jucas pointed out several times that he has absolutely no intentions of ever going into CQC in the first place, and since they can't reach him in the air before he simply teleports away from them, they're not gonna get a chance to flex those one-shot muscles.

Moving on, the whole tank busting debate. It seemed to me that the main argument for the move being above tank busting was that it destroyed some things that are larger than a tank. To be blunt, that doesn't mean it's tank busting. Like, at all. Unless we're talking continental sized things, size has very little to do with how durable something is. For example, Superman is smaller than a tank, does that mean a tank is more durable? No. Why? Because Superman's durability feats greatly eclipse a tank. Simple. Well, here, a tanks durability completely eclipses the dragon's durability. And unfortunately, the amount of time the team spent trying to prove it was tank busting meant that they didn't counter the ability at all, and this leads me to believe that they couldn't counter it, hence the arguments. Heck, even an "it's over the limits but just in case he's how we'd survive anyway" section wouldn't go amiss. In terms of 'countering' the ability, the pair just put all their eggs in one basket and one-sidedly assumed that the audience was of the same opinion as them, which is disappointing as they should have known that not everyone agrees as they were told that at least one of the co-hosts didn't believe the ability was above tank busting in the first place.

Now onto the gun. I did find it extremely unusual that the assault rifle - which read as the crux of the pairs second post strategy - wasn't so much as mentioned in the first post and only showed up after Jucas employed his "you can't fight me in CQC" strategy, but I'll leave that aside. As far as I'm concerned, the gun is literally the only way for Nabe to be tagged by anything in the pairs arsenal; however, I don't think it's enough to take her down. As for why I think this, that's in Jucas' second post which I think solidly countered the plan that the pair needed to almost utterly rely on to beat her. Whether it can get through her shields or not is debatable, but even so, she's tanked similar attacks before while having to act badly so it looked like she got injured, and can just heal the damage if she does happen to get hit. Plus, the whole standing still to shoot at her bit did lead me to believe that X-23 going to shoot Nabe would leave her pretty open to being blasted.

Of course, the pair did dive heavily into agility, and their means to dodge the regular attacks that Nabe has (even if they didn't touch on dodging her big one) and it was quite convincing; however, that only serves to lead to a war of attrition, and repeatedly acrobatically dodging attacks is going to be more draining then just sitting up in the air, occasionally teleporting and lobbing down AoE attacks. The way I see it is as so: the pair will dodge well at the start, but as they can't hit her and she can hit them, they'll inevitably get tagged eventually, at which point it's all downhill. X-23's healing factor is helpful, but it can also be taxed, so at best she's just going to last a little bit longer.

In conclusion, the only reliable method the pair had to harm Nabe was the rifle, but that was sufficiently countered in my eyes. On the other hand, however, was the fact that Nabe could utilise almost the entirety of her powerset without resistance due to how she chose to fight. Simply put, the odds just weren't in the pair's favour.

This is pretty much my thoughts on the battle. I would also add that the constant "no durability feats" from the team was well countered by Jucas in his 2nd post. She can tank the bullets (both due to her own durability regarding the dragon tail where she was essentially unharmed amd the shields she has aiding her) and though they provided some sort of offense with the gun, and that is probably the only means of tagging her the team possesses, I doubt it will do much if anything of significance.

Teleportation, keeping her distance and AoE was the best route of offense against the supremely gifted Kaine and Laura when it comes to agility. I doubt they are going to be able to dodge such a spell continuously that follows it's target until it hits the target. These are the main reasons I found Vertigo and Watchers' arguments to fall short. They didn't perform bad by any means but their case for survival just wasn't as convincing as Jucas.

Overall, a good debate and good job to all 3 of you

Kaine and X-23 Die.

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#100 Edited by geekryan (1868 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa:

To everyone, regarding the new info: they never mentioned the rifle in their first post, I wouldn't be able to counter it if I hadn't found that screenshot, and they even had Laura appear outta nowhere while I couldn't even mention her in my first post. I was actually wondering if it'd be fair to add new stuff (I didn't think I'd need those feats in my first post because she was just fighting Kaine at the time), but since they'd be doing that as well, I assumed it was all fair. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(I’m on my phone so I can’t quote)

I completely agree with this and think it is fair. Not only did Jucas have 1 post to counter a 2nd opponent (with a gun), but his arguments just made more sense. Despite the fact that he was disadvantaged in more than one way, he was the stronger debater. However, all 3 of you did very well.