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#101 Edited by FireStarLord73194 (4835 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: proof that AM’s armor is stronger than a person that tanked the Big Bang?

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#102 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10154 posts) - - Show Bio

@firestarlord73194: lol really? Wasn’t PC Superman literally one of the heroes fighting the CoIE Anti monitor? You’re saying Superman is now more durable than him?

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#103 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (4835 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: than his armor yes... AM didn’t hurt him so it’s not a stretch. You’re claiming a similar thing with Wally so I’m not sure why it’s that big of a deal??

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#104 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10154 posts) - - Show Bio

@firestarlord73194: because the rest of all your heroes, Superman included, tried and failed against that very same armor.

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#105 Edited by Sungsam (2932 posts) - - Show Bio

If you don't like the feats, just call it an outlier or pis, hurr durr.

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#106 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (4835 posts) - - Show Bio
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#107 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10154 posts) - - Show Bio

@firestarlord73194: okay let’s assess:

- Wally can be energy, Superman can do nothing to him.

- Wally can phase, Superman can do nothing to him.

- Wally can slow down or speed up neutrons in Superman’s brain or organs, Superman can do nothing about it.

- Wally thoroughly destroyed the same armor, on the same being that withstood everything Superman and his kin could do to him without a scratch.

Your best argument is, “proof that CoIE Anti Monitor is more durable than Superman”, which I’ve explained withstood every other PC character attack, but given what you’re really looking for, there is no evidence outside of common sense to prove that since Wally damaged and fought a specific one he could do so to the other, far less potent character. But we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point.

I have legitimate questions here:

- What exactly is Clark supposed to do to someone he can’t see, catch, physically touch, or defend against besides his base durability? This is assuming that phasing wouldn’t work against him.

- What are Clark’s offensive weapons of use in this battle? - What force has been sufficient in knocking him out? I sincerely do not know.

May be tomorrow before I get around to a reply, cheers.

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#109 Posted by jay_z94 (8205 posts) - - Show Bio

As far as I’m aware, both of these characters pretty much broke speed lol

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#111 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio
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#113 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12811 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: how does Wally ko him first though? Clark is too durable

The same way he hurt the AM, it's a very common tactic for Wally to blitz targets with thousands, if not millions of hits if he knows the target can take it; and that's a morals on Wally. You've mentioned several times that Clark moved freely through the big bang; Wally did a similar thing during Human Race when he was racing through the galaxy.

That or overloading Clark w/Speedforce energies; which he's used to take down foes before. Wally has a direct connection to the speed force which is unique compared to other speedsters, this is why Wally has access to more abilities, greater speeds, etc., he is mainlining the speed force and has access to an infinite amount of it's energy.

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#114 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (4835 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: when has Wally used speed lend to speed up someone’s neurons to neutralize them? I know Walter has done that but I don’t recall Wally ever doing that

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#115 Posted by Au_141 (975 posts) - - Show Bio

This may be a stupid Question but Are you guys sure that the PC characters that Human Race Wally fought are still operating at PC levels. IIRC Convergence did a simplistic thing by having characters go back to fix COIE as well but I’m not sure that mean they operate at that level. Just confused tbh since I haven’t read the story for myself yet

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#116 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio

@au_141: Human race wally is different from this wally, the wally who Went back in time to fight the anti monitor was normal wally

Human race wally is a version of wally who was faster than teleportation when he defeated an alien Who used it in a race

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#118 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10154 posts) - - Show Bio

@firestarlord73194: Walter has done it, and he’s literally an evil version of Wally. Wally gained memories of Walters abilities when they merged so replicating it should be no issue given Wallys proficiency at it. Wally has speed up he neurons in the justice leagues brains so they could think and fight faster during a justice league run, but was careful as not to damage them. He’s also done so to electrons in a computer before, which is even trickier.

Any of my questions about Superman?

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#119 Posted by Au_141 (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@eobard21: That makes sense. I still have the same question though

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#120 Edited by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio

@au_141: And yeah they were opérating at their PC levels since wally only Went back in time and changed nothing they were at the exact same level.

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#122 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12811 posts) - - Show Bio

@au_141: It’s never stated they they’re weaker than before; in the issue Wally has to emulate what Barry did due to Barry getting killed via time travel shenanigans IIRC so nothing else should’ve changed their strength levels to make them weaker. I’d say they’re the same since Wally makes several comments about how things are playing out like they did last time when he was there as a teenager/Kid Flash,

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#123 Posted by KanyeCosby (6958 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: The problem is that Wally doesn’t do that in character and in fact has never done that. If you want to bring up stuff like that I can just say that Superman can just use his star level molecular manipulation, his telepathy, or if he is really feeling it, he can just accelerate to infinity and destroy all of reality. None of these things, Pre Crisis Superman will likely do in character though.

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#124 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10154 posts) - - Show Bio

@kanyecosby: he absolutely would. Wally’s go to is the speed steal. He could either immobilize Clark in round one, or he could kill him in round 2 (bloodlusted). We already know the speed steal works just fine on Superman. Everybody keeps complaining about Wally, but no one has actually answered any of my questions regarding his defensive capability or how he’s supposed to respond. You’re referring to SA Superman inventing powers for any given scenarios... lol that’s like me saying Wally just gathers all the kryptonite, lead and magic in the world and kills him or detains him instantly. Talk nonsensically and get those same answers, if you’re using feats that were retconned and removed for reasons as they are not conducive or huge to the characters history and stand as outliers, then we can’t have a legitimate debate. If you’re arguing that the things Wally has done routinely and could be turned into effective killing methods, but wouldn’t because it’s out of character for round 1, then I’d agree.

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#126 Posted by Michaelbn (2338 posts) - - Show Bio

I can remember Pre-C Supes could push a galaxy and had infinite speed.

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#129 Posted by Au_141 (975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#130 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio
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#132 Posted by Lordflawlez (1288 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't superman destroy something that could tank a big bang?

Wally isn't winning. Speed isn't everything

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#133 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordflawlez: Speed isn't everything unless you're faster than teleportation like this version of wally

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#135 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn: That's op but he's fighting someone who's faster than instant teleportation

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#136 Edited by Kidolio (613 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Wally but you guys are using his highest feat ever but the Superman people are doing the same things soooooo......I guess we wank both of them then and see who wins I guess? Well in that case, Flash speed steal infinite speed and then use his own infinite speed for DOUBLE INFINITE SPEED. WAHOOOOO!!!!!THIS PARTYS GETTING CRAZY!!!!!!........I’m sorry.

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#137 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (4835 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordflawlez: yes and he himself tanked it to. Makes no sense

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#138 Posted by Wrathofthebrad (835 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94 said:

As far as I’m aware, both of these characters pretty much broke speed lol

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#139 Posted by Motifian (1434 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: That's not pre crisis Superman, it's Byrne Era Superman who fought Anti Monitor post crisis.

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#140 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12811 posts) - - Show Bio

@motifian: Do you have confirmation for this being a different Superman?

Wally went back in time and was at the battle taking place during COIE. He literally saw his youngner self doing the same things he was doing during the crisis.

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#141 Posted by Motifian (1434 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Yes, because after crisis, there was no Earth-1 Superman. The history got re-written so only Superman of Earth zero fought in crisis. But if you want the confirmation, here you go.

https://i.postimg.cc/9ff0VpHS/Superman-COIE.jpg

This was official chronology of post crisis Superman.

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#142 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (12811 posts) - - Show Bio

@motifian: Appreciate the confrimation. Out of genuine curiosity, where does the chronology for PC Superman end then? I know many heroes during/after COIE had their histories rewritten, but most commonly I see people simply refer to them as their Pre/Post Crisis versions.

Did Pre-Crisis Superman not fight during COIE?

EDIT: Just went back to re-read COIE. Both Supermen seemed to be present at the battle. While the Superman of Earth Zero/Prime Earth was present at the battle, like you've stated, there was another Superman who had his entire world/history destroyed.

No Caption Provided

The Earth-2 Superman, Kal-L, but I'm still unsure who has the Pre-Crisis Status/when Pre-Crisis stopped existing, simply because Wally went back in time in Flash #150. Did PC Superman stop existing during the crisis was happening?

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#143 Edited by Motifian (1434 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: As of now, there is simply no such thing as pre crisis Superman. In fans view, it ended at Action comics 582 but DC treats all of pre crisis Superman's adventures done by post crisis Superman but the power levels were not the same.

In fact DC retroactive Superman 80s straight up shows Superman being the same throughout crisis and post crisis career.

Also yeah, both Supermen were present at that time but it was only post crisis Superman who fought with Kal L.

Mentioned in Superman 8.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0RSf354ElHg/W9KbpWpQiAI/AAAAAAAApos/EwOeBd86QVA98neEpQ5bkiVXWVjKhNsFwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO011.jpg

And again in Adventures of Superman annual 2.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yreIgkiAw3Ne-6CwIlzczYVUdq4hnlkdp-6YTLCxBjGP3hwHzf5UuHv8bcwAnIvE_LTXSgeS1waw=s1600

There are other references too if you want.

DC simply stated that Byrne era Superman fought in Crisis along with Kal L and other heroes in Crisis.

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#144 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio

I bet that if this fight happened in the comics it would destroy the multiverse lol

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#145 Edited by from_beyond (863 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman effortlessly wins. The dude stood in the middle of big bang without harm.

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#146 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12811 posts) - - Show Bio

@motifian said:

@thetruebarryallen: As of now, there is simply no such thing as pre crisis Superman. In fans view, it ended at Action comics 582 but DC treats all of pre crisis Superman's adventures done by post crisis Superman but the power levels were not the same.

In fact DC retroactive Superman 80s straight up shows Superman being the same throughout crisis and post crisis career.

Well that's incredibly stupid and mildly frustrating. We're dealing with Schrodinger's Superman. Simultaneously existing as Pre Crisis while also not.

Appreciate the insight.

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#147 Edited by Motifian (1434 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Even post crisis Superman was so confusing in terms of backstory that you could say he was a totally different character after 2000. Superman met five Zods post crisis and each time it was for the first time. Imagine how that works.

Don't even ask about post crisis Krypto's origins. Or how Cyborg Superman was created or when did Superman join Justice League.

People say Hawkman's origin is confusing at times and rightly so but Superman is even worse IMO.

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#148 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12811 posts) - - Show Bio

@motifian: Cripes, that's a brain-bender if I've ever heard of one.

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#149 Posted by Motifian (1434 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Heh, you haven't even begin to understand the confusion.

Imagine Donna Troy's origin and Hawkman's backstory. Superman's origin and backstory is worse than both combined. Dude had five origin stories in a decade FFS.

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#150 Posted by Eobard21 (4647 posts) - - Show Bio