Hulk Vs Despero

What.. The Thing beat a stronger incarnation of Hulk and the stronger incarnation got himself hurt by Black Panther’s gear. That’s the equivalent of bringing up Powergirl and Hawkman. How is getting hurt with a Nth metal mace one of the strongest substances in the DC universe a bad thing?

Isn't Hawkman laughably weak? From what I know, he's just a street tier. I still don't really like this argument considering what Despero has accomplished, and the fact that he has decently blunt force durability. Also is Powergirl a mid-tier or high-tier?

Hulk's TP resistance, especially Savage, is near unbreakable. I can't see Despero doing anything if Xavier + Emma combined couldn't effect one of his more intelligent forms. Xemnu had to brute-force his way in and even then it was more of a overload of minds than mind control, which Despero mostly goes to in the first place.

Hulk’s tp resistance is shaky and inconsistent as hell. He’s been TP’d more times than he’s resisted it which I’d question you even arguing for his tp resistance given you like to suggest consistency a lot of the time.

I see your point. Imo the consistency argument is still highly dubious. I'd take Hulk resisting TP over some PIS him being TP'd any day. Who are some of the people that have TP'd Hulk?

@professorrespect:

Thing "beat" him after a hour of getting his shit kicked in and the actual KO itself lasted a minute before Immortal was shown getting up and leaving. In comparison, Ben was in a coma for a week. That's also not addressing the fact that Devil Hulk isn't as strong as Savage as Immortal Hulk makes painfully clear.

Hulk lost because his objective or under said control was to kill seriously harm Ben

Eh? Yeah, that's the whole point lol. Puppet Master was controlling him to kill the guy.

Ben stopped him from doing that. No one is arguing Ben came off physically better, but he did win the fight

He "won" the fight in the sense that he KO'd Hulk for a minute with literally everything he had as he himself states. His own arm exploded from the impact, which has NEVER happened before, so this was his hardest strike ever.

The idea Devil Hulk isn’t stronger is highly questionable. Given Devil Hulk treated Thor in a way Savage Hulk doesn’t really ever treat Thor

Not really, Thor gets knocked around a lot. It's still a great feat but that doesn't make him > Savage, especially when it was established that Savage could smash stuff that Devil simply couldn't.

Could also mention the fact Immortal Hulk also had Thor state Devil Hulk was the strongest he’s seen Hulk

.....no, that was him referring to Devil Hulk having TOBA's Gamma in him, which influenced his actions, made him more brutal. He hints at it during the dialogue.

That's not Devil so already you are getting yourself rather confused about the facts. Panther hurt the guy but at the same time it was getting pulled out before Shulk got in and was practically no sold in comparison to Despero being blooded badly with a mace swing.

And Hawkman has harmed teambusters like Shaggyman and Gog

Which Gog is this intended to be? Post Crisis Gog isn't a teambuster.

Not really. You can find some dumb examples in the 60's and 70's but Savage is pretty airtight when it comes to TP defences, sorry to say.

Avengers Assemble took place in 2012

Avengers Assemble writes Hulk like his MCU counterpart: namely because it's designed in part to promote the movie that came out the same year. It's a silly outlier that also writes Thanos as some brain-dead conqueror despite having no interest in Earth. I've never seen anyone take that run very seriously, much like Thanos getting merked by the Guardians of the Universe at the end of their mid 2010's run.

Hickman’s Avengers run took place in 2014

Abyss's powers aren't TP, they are suggestion/illusion-based. Much like Purple Man is mind control but isn't TP. She can suggest certain things but she can't actually do stuff you'd expect from TP.

I’m pretty sure based off the art Tarot issue 2 wasn’t a really outdated comic either I could see it being mid 2000s to early 2010s

....but the Hulk featured there is a old version, based on the 70's Defenders. Interestingly enough, Hulk is the one to break out of Diablo's spell, which featured the likes of Doctor Strange and Sliver Surfer. It's actually more of a good feat than anything else.

@professorrespect:

Eh? Yeah, that's the whole point lol. Puppet Master was controlling him to kill the guy.

So another guy controlling the guy with supposedly really good mental resistance

Not really, Puppet Master has never been able to control people that resistant (his best was 60's Xavier and that worked once as a ambush: he also controlled 60's Hulk but noticeably stumbled on anything complex) it's explained that Devil is going along with his commands (a "very willing puppet") so it would be a lot easier to control him. Notice how I said Devil, not Savage. Devil isn't as resistant to mental attacks (Xemnu, Leader, etc)

Not really, Thor gets knocked around a lot. It's still a great feat but that doesn't make him > Savage, especially when it was established that Savage could smash stuff that Devil simply couldn't.

I don’t see Savage Hulk beating a team consisting of Wonderman, Jane Thor and Hercules as easily as Immortal Hulk did either

Wonder Man wasn't even doing anything. Herc and Jane are fine but I really wouldn't say they were gonna do anything different with Savage.

.....no, that was him referring to Devil Hulk having TOBA's Gamma in him, which influenced his actions, made him more brutal. He hints at it during the dialogue.

That makes no sense as an excuse given dialogue like this

.....you are conflating TOBA Devil with Fixit? That's probably where the confusion comes from.

Which Gog is this intended to be? Post Crisis Gog isn't a teambuster.

The version that took on the entire JSA and that Hawkman made bleed with a mace swing

Oh, so Post Crisis Gog then. Not really a teambuster given Superman could kick his ass solo, Jay Garrick casually no-diffed his mace and the "entire JSA" whom no one was actually hurt even half-badly after the fight as per their own words on the matter, and of which he only actually knocked out the B-list lads.

Avengers Assemble writes Hulk like his MCU counterpart: namely because it's designed in part to promote the movie that came out the same year. It's a silly outlier that also writes Thanos as some brain-dead conqueror despite having no interest in Earth. I've never seen anyone take that run very seriously, much like Thanos getting merked by the Guardians of the Universe at the end of their mid 2010's run.

I don’t see how Avenger’s Assemble is an outlier when there’s other instances of Hulk being tampered with mentally

The instances you provided are pretty faulty as outlined above.

Abyss's powers aren't TP, they are suggestion/illusion-based. Much like Purple Man is mind control but isn't TP. She can suggest certain things but she can't actually do stuff you'd expect from TP.

Its still an example of Hulk’s mentally getting invaded and then controlled into fighting his teammate similar to the Thanos instance

....except that her powers aren't TP related, so it's pretty useless in such a condition to use it here.

....but the Hulk featured there is a old version, based on the 70's Defenders. Interestingly enough, Hulk is the one to break out of Diablo's spell, which featured the likes of Doctor Strange and Sliver Surfer. It's actually more of a good feat than anything else.

It was a modern comic

.....with a old version of the character. Those do exist.

with Hulk being suggested to having a weak mind

Yet broke out first before Strange or anyone else did? Seems a bit of a oxymoron there.

There’s a good amount of instances with Dr. Strange being mind controlled as well

Not easily is the point. Strange is highly resistant to mental control all the way back to the 60's.

@boutatakeanl:

I recall Thor just having better feats than Superman. Sure the crossover exists, but that outcome doesn't make too much sense given that Thor is superior in every sense except for speed. If Hulk can beat someone like that on a consistent basis, that should still put him above Superman.

I don’t know why we’d ignore Superman overpowering Thor or where the insertion of Thor having better strength feats come from honestly. I don’t think their 50:50 in terms of strength. Most people argue it’s a fair fight because Thor has magic rather than anything else and Superman is vulnerable to magical attacks

I didn't even know or think magic was the primary argument. But I guess you're right. No use ignoring Superman straight-up beating Thor.

Well, isn't there also one where Xavier and Emma combined couldn't use their TP on him, as Prof. also mentioned above.

I honestly don’t even know about this instance. You could always give me the issue and I could go read it though.

I'll try to find it. I just know a lot of people bring that up as an argument. Never actually dug into it.

There is Xenmu stating that Hulk is immune to his telepathic control though. Pretty impressive for TP resistance.

@professorrespect:

Yep! That's the context of the issue. Devil was willing to beat the snot out of Thing but Puppet Master was pushing that desire to another level by trying to get him to kill Ben outright: as much as he hates the guy, he doesn't want to do that, which is why he was pissed. It's a pretty context-filled feat so reading the issue carefully helps in discerning it.

So are a lot of instances of Hulk resisting telepathy

Correct, so it's good to explain them.

The issue is Puppet Master was still able to control Hulk

.....except that Hulk was a willing subject in that and wasn't really resisting any. The issue tells you that. Kinda making a non-point here.

I mean sure, but at the same time he's done stuff like that before.

For a “consistency buff” this is ironic. Savage Hulk treating characters like Herc or any Thor level character the way Immortal Hulk did isn’t consistent

So you say, but it's happened before. Not sure when I said it was a consistent baseline for Savage (could you even do that with his rage amps?)

Because that was a run-specific thing and not just the issue. Devil drained TOBA-controlled Sasquatch of his Gamma a few issues back, which spread the corruption to himself and lead him to become more aggressive and reckless until Absorbing Man accidently drained it later on, which spread it to him.

Issue number?

Issue number for what? You can find the showings pretty easily by reading Immortal Hulk's synopsis pages for the early issues.

Doesn't change the fact that he hurt virtually none of them, he ran away at the end. He got the shit beaten out of him by Sups solo so this really doesn't mean much of anything. Struggling with a singular foe doesn't create a teambuster, otherwise virtually every single JLA villain who showed up in the Bronze and Sliver Age would be one.

Most would argue Superman vs Hulk one on one is hard fight

Most would.

Still not understanding why Hawkman harming Despero with a Nth metal weapon is something you think is a anti-feat

It's a example of poor performance to durability.

which is a faulty notion considering he's regularly considered the hardest character to TP out of the main heroes by a good few miles. It's a notion with nothing behind it beyond non-TP showings and the odd one or two out of a incredibly solid record.

Sure, Sentry has that one feat where Mastermind TP's him, but it doesn't change the fact that Emma, Xavier, and multiple planetary mind-wipes couldn't effect his mind in any huge way.

This is context heavy as well. Emma has been wonky in terms of her telepathy

Never been the case to me.

and Xavier has struggled to TP Hulk but has been successful at times

Successful in old showings or runs where it's a older Hulk included, and it's still limited.

The whole reason he typically struggles is because of Hulk’s rage

Hulk's rage is helpful but it isn't the ONLY thing involved in that process.

It's not really my fault if you don't know Strange's showings.

Uhm ok.. I’ll disregard the idea despite Strange being one of my favorite Marvel characters if not my favorite. But entertain me what feats suggest Strange is resisting Despero’s TP when he got MInd controlled by Diablo

Not sure what you mean here? Strange has plenty of TP resistance feats out there that can be very easily accessed, even by my own hands at times.