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#101 Edited by tensor (8358 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: It has not happen yet.

Ask some Hulk expert.

Ask the mighty ghostravage when he has done it under his own power.

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#102 Edited by WastelandMan (8747 posts) - - Show Bio

@termiteone4ever:

This has got to be your worse response yet...........

It's not greater because what? Because you say so? Dude you're being beyond silly. He punched through time itself. Using your broken logic, it's far greater. The feat with Superman was shared and only had an unspecified part of the multiverse. You don't accept it because it's not convenient for you. Confirmation Bias and Moving the Goal Post logical fallacies.

Hulk is physically stronger. He has the better quantifiable feats which I've presented while you presented laughable garbage.

1. Accept Hulk punching through a time barrier being superior. You can cry about it all day it was done. See? I can make declarative statements with no substance behind them too. You can repeat it being acceptable all day but that's the Proof by Assertion logical fallacy. Speaking of a logical fallacy, saying Hulk's limit is a star is a massive straw man fallacy of my argument. And even if it was it's still the greatest quantifiable feat that's far above Supermans.

2. It wasn't the entire universe, it was stated to have a universe GROWING inside it. For all we know it could have just been two earth sized planets. And this is assuming we use your abysmal logic and assume that the abstract being even adheres to anything we even know and the extent in which you use the feat borders the no-limit fallacy. Furthermore, mass of ANY star>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mass of the Earth which is Supes greatest and ONLY quantifiable strength feat.

3. So you think superman is king of PIS and CIS but think that his feat should still be taken seriously???? Are you joking right now?

4. Do you HONESTLY believe the staff was arbitrarily made with a mini star? Do you REALLY believe that? Wouldn't it have been stated? And a star of that size wouldn't even be able to hold Hulk. You're arguments have degraded to the bottom of the barrel at this point............

5. That is a terrible justification but I pretty much expect that from you at this point. Questioning something and being open to more ideas are two different things entirely....but okay.

6. Let's just focus on the feat issue for now because otherwise this debate will become a mess (or more of a mess than it already is). Straying off from the original issue is the Shotgun argumentation and Red Herring logical fallacy because you're attempting to deviate from the initial issue we're discussing which was who is physically stronger and presenting a plethora of other arguments.

Since you're failing hard-core at this whole debate thing, you should try to write a book on logical fallacies because you seem to be an excellent practitioner of most of them to the point where I've lost count.

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#103 Posted by EsquireHulk (274 posts) - - Show Bio
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#104 Posted by EsquireHulk (274 posts) - - Show Bio
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#105 Posted by WastelandMan (8747 posts) - - Show Bio
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#106 Posted by EsquireHulk (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@m_man: Idk it was funny seeing you post that over & over.

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#107 Edited by WastelandMan (8747 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquirehulk:

It was funny seeing them in the post I responded to. I thought I'd point out each I found to really ram home how ridiculous he was being. Maybe it seemed excessive but meh.

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#108 Posted by Cream_God (15519 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Thor

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#109 Edited by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel:

@highaccuser: hulk is as likely to blitz with his speed as superman, he does it in character all the time, the only difference is that he runs at people as opposed to superman who flys at them. Hulk held his own at subzero temperatures (granted his suit helped) so I fail to see how ice breath incap would help. Hulks also immune to pressure points, it doesn't do anything special to him so that's out of the picture as well.

I know Hulk blitzes now, but has he ever done so to someone with speed on par with his own? Because Superman has a number of times and should be able to here.

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  • In the first scan he blitzes Superboy-Prime, someone possibly faster than him, with help from Kal-l.
  • He blitzed Orion, someone who has the speed to keep up with the light speedster lightray, and this was in a story that took place well before Superman was as powerful as he was in later years.
  • During Last Son, Superman blitzed Zod and Faora. This is the one storyline where normal Kyrptonians were equal with Superman(Non stalemated him and Bizzaro, Zod stalemated Superman).
  • Then we have him pressure point blitzing Ultraman, someone physically even with him.
  • In the next three scans we have Superman blitzing Wonder Woman, someone on par with himself reaction wise.
  • The next 5 have him blitzing Doomsday, someone who consistently keeps up with him in combat speed.
  • Then we have 2 more times he's blitzed Ultraman.
  • Captain Marvel has nanosecond reaction speed as confirmed by writers, but Superman blitzed him.
  • Superman was able to blitz amazo, someone logically faster than himself.
  • And finally we have him blitzing Bizzaro, someone equal to him in all areas.

Superman's blitzes are also a lot more powerful than Hulks and should cause him some hurt.

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  • In the first scan he blitzes off the arm of an imperiex probe that was giving the JLA problems.
  • Then he blitzes a hole in an imperiex probe. This one didn't solo the league, but imperiex probes are still invariably superior to Mongul.
  • During For Tomorrow Superman destroyed a giant spaceship by blitzing it.
  • When Superman blitzed Orion he was only at Byrne era power levels. The strength gap between him and Orion at this time would've been similar in size to the gap between modern Superman and Thanos, but he managed to make him bleed.
  • With Help from Wonder Woman(someone worse at blitzing than he is)he knocked back General Eiling into a trasport tube. This is the first attack that seriously hurt Eiling.
  • During OWAW Superman was able to overpower Mongul by Blitzing him and using all his other powers in a Super Combo.
  • A blitz from Superman was capable of taking out Zod, someone who'd been completely overpowering him physically for the rest of that fight.
  • Superman was able to one-shot Bizzaro with a blitz by using his superior flight manueverability to build momentum.

Superman's Ice incap is capable of holding Bizzaro, so it should at least give Hulk some problems.

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Not to mention that he can make ice pellets capable of harming Darkseid.

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Clark's only real advantages are heat vision (something hulk is highly resistant to, just heat in general) and the ability to fly. He can't exactly avoid hulk thunderclaps forever since they have equal speed, I fail to see how he can even avoid one under these conditions.

Superman has feats with his heat vision to suggest he could majorly harm Hulk with it.

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He should be able to avoid a good amount of them. Supermans combat speed is light speed, Hulks is Hypersonic, so they should both be a bit above light speed, enough to dodge thunderclaps.

Normally a speed blitz would be supermans best option against a guy like a hulk but here it's the worst. Hulk can actually react to it under these stipulations and when superman starts trading blows with hulk after the speed blitz, he's going to lose. Fighting skills can only get you so far when your fighting a guy who drastically outclasses you in strength and durability, not to mention who is your equal in speed.

Hulk can, but if Superman thinks he's outclassed physically he's going to start playing smart and keeping his distance while doing some blitzing, ice breath and heat vision. Hulks physical advantage is matched by Supermans tactical use of his powers and far superior versaility in how he actually applies his powers.

Supermans best bet in this situation would be to just sit back and spam heat vision whilst flying to avoid hulk attacks, even then I'm skeptical of that alone would overload hulks healing factor. All of this is without taking into consideration that hulk is just as likely to speed blitz as superman is, except hulk is much stronger than superman and would put it to better use.

I imagine spamming heat vision will hurt considerably considering he did that with HP Doomsday, someone much stronger than Hulk. Hulk being stronger doesn't mean his blitzes are as effective or powerful because he's simply not used to use them at these speeds and can't do so to people with his level of speed.

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#110 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#111 Edited by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio
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#112 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: woah, great post. Yeah I'm gonna need a minute to think this through.

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#113 Edited by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio
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#114 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

That is an excellently written and organised post on Superman's showings, power usage and tactics. I'm very impressed with that kind of reasoning :)

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#115 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@highaccuser:

That is an excellently written and organised post on Superman's showings, power usage and tactics. I'm very impressed with that kind of reasoning :)

Thanks. Means a lot coming from you.

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#116 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@highaccuser:

That is an excellently written and organised post on Superman's showings, power usage and tactics. I'm very impressed with that kind of reasoning :)

Thanks. Means a lot coming from you.

You wouldn't need my support to see how good that post is, it speaks for itself.

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#117 Posted by MonsterStomp (36562 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@highaccuser said:

@lvenger said:

@highaccuser:

That is an excellently written and organised post on Superman's showings, power usage and tactics. I'm very impressed with that kind of reasoning :)

Thanks. Means a lot coming from you.

You wouldn't need my support to see how good that post is, it speaks for itself.

Just kiss it out already :P

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#118 Posted by termiteone4ever (12719 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Good job posting those scans . It backs up my first post about having the speed equalized. :) also my freeze breathe and punch . also heat vision and freeze mix :) . Strange enough i had most of the scans you posted in mind . Including his precise accuracy heat visions ones.

To answer your question yes. Notice my first post in this thread about having speed and experience with the speed. Notice my argument about punching and freezing notice my argument about heat vision and instant freeze and doing it with mix. This is how superman fights on occasion. i dont make up these stuff . I am just too lazy to post these scans i posted years ago. So when i say it its not made up.

@m_man:

We are not getting any where. Its not like i dont see your points.We are not getting any where and you are not convincing me. You are not showing me anything new that i havent seen or read. You have some things twisted . You also got caught by asking the same question i was asking. My point still stands Superman would defeat hulk here . Superman is still stronger.

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#119 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: yes but it's on matter which you are the sites main expert.

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#120 Posted by odinblast (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Possibly gets passed 3, but gets curbed at 4 or 5

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#121 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: yes but it's on matter which you are the sites main expert.

I wouldn't say main expert myself, maybe one of the top experts sure.

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#122 Edited by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser

I know Hulk blitzes now, but has he ever done so to someone with speed on par with his own? Because Superman has a number of times and should be able to here.

Well he has blitzed a few metahuman cowboys who were fast enough to turn colt 45s into gattling guns.

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There a few other scans of him blitzing like these:

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And

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  • sprints straight through a group of soldiers
  • blitzes with daredevil then pulls one heck of a durability feat.

More?

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  • sprints straight through a group of soldiers.
  • running at high speeds again.
  • blitzes an ice giant.
  • blitzes through a wall of absolute zero, something I will elaborate on later.
  • hulk blitzes proxima and corvus (granted he missed).

Superman's blitzes are also a lot more powerful than Hulks and should cause him some hurt.

Not necessarily, Hulks much stronger than superman and the only real advantage clark has when blitzing is using flight. Its equalised speed and they both blitz regularly, having more experience doesnt have to mean your better at something.

Superman's Ice incap is capable of holding Bizzaro, so it should at least give Hulk some problems.

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Thats all well and good but as far as im aware (correct me if im wrong) bizarro doesn't have a SINGLE cold resistance feat to his name, feats that hulk actually has.

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yes its that one again. What hulk is blitzing through is absolute zero in temperature, granted his suit helped him but his suit only covers a portion of his body and its not known excactly how much it helped. There are a few more scans of hulk resisting cold temperatures, just ask if you want to see them. Now of course ice breath can help, just not nearly as much as to temporarily incap hulk.

Not to mention that he can make ice pellets capable of harming Darkseid.

are there any other instances of him doing that? Its a good feat but im curious as to whether its a "regular" ability he would use.

Superman has feats with his heat vision to suggest he could majorly harm Hulk with it.

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Im aware how powerful his heat vision is, you just need to factor in hulk resistance to heat based attacks.

For one he resisted gladiators heat vision which is said to burn hotter than stars:

seriously
seriously

Dont get me wrong, im not saying gladiators heat vision is as powerful as supermans (although its not far behind) nor am I saying that hulk can easily tank it. Prolonged exposure to gladiators heat vision would have killed him, but thats not why im showing this feat. Hulks power was seriouslyfluctuating at this point in time (in the bad way) and he was constantly getting weaker. he was beat up by a t-rex, manhandled by apocalypse and was hurt by a street sign at one point. In fact it got so bad he even died at one point. hulk was performing far below his average yet still managed to power through gladiators heat vision and grab his head, not to mention that this was prior to the core breach on sakaar which was a major amp and pushed him to the top of the food chain when it comes to strength.

He managed to take the power of a supernova (which was time warped into proximas spear) whilst being held down by the weight of a star (a testament to his strength) whilst being stabbed by corvus glaive:

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now to be truthful this was hulks first loss in the series, however the fact he held out for so long is amazing. to put it into perspective corvus glaive almost killed hyperion instantly and proxima would have killed steve and carol if not for a stroke of luck on caps part. proxima didnt even use her star ability on the avengers, only her spear. Hulk tanked their combined assualt for a prolonged amount of time whereas the avengers (including hyperion) were felled almost instantly.

This ones a "my bad" moment, i dont have the scan prior to this where hes attacked by corvus and proxima speaks about her abilitys.

He should be able to avoid a good amount of them. Supermans combat speed is light speed, Hulks is Hypersonic, so they should both be a bit above light speed, enough to dodge thunderclaps.

Hulk has been shown to thunderclap in a 360 degree view multiple times, he did it during hulk vs ironman actually...

Hulk can, but if Superman thinks he's outclassed physically he's going to start playing smart and keeping his distance while doing some blitzing, ice breath and heat vision. Hulks physical advantage is matched by Supermans tactical use of his powers and far superior versaility in how he actually applies his powers.

Just because hes morals off doesnt mean he is completely out of character. I can cite numerous instances where clark does not sit back and engage from a distance against a stronger foe. people like:

  • general eiling
  • superboy prime
  • despero
  • doomsday
  • darkseid

must I go on? superman will almost definitely engage in close quarters after a speed blitz and that will be his downfall, Hes simply outclassed in the physical department and trying to use pressure point will get him nowhere since hulk immune to them, danny found that out the hard way...

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besides hulk has adapted countless times since then so who knows what his physiology's like?

imagine spamming heat vision will hurt considerably considering he did that with HP Doomsday, someone much stronger than Hulk. Hulk being stronger doesn't mean his blitzes are as effective or powerful because he's simply not used to use them at these speeds and can't do so to people with his level of speed.

I already spoke about heat vision and yes, it will hurt, just not nearly enough to bring hulk down, And the reason hulk cant blitz people at his level of speed is because of his mindset. he doesn't react as a speedster does, he can run fast but cant react as well at those speeds. this has been spoke about countless times. equalised speed tends to include equalised reactions, otherwise itd be pointless. so yes, he can blitz superman at these speeds.

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#123 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: by the way how do you set images up like you do when you were showing speed blitzes?

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#124 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: by the way how do you set images up like you do when you were showing speed blitzes?

Select images, then pick URL. Copy and paste in the URL for the images and select "side by side". If you don't have the URL for the image drag it to the web adress of any page and it'll pop up.

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#125 Posted by christianrapper (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

stops at supes.

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#126 Posted by DrF8 (3309 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Superman.

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#127 Posted by christianrapper (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

@m_man said:

@termiteone4ever:

Sure I accept that it's probably impressive if it caused Supes and Shazam to struggle just to maintain it but don't act like it should be held higher than Hulk's feat because it's unquantifiable. Supe's feat is laughable nonsense. You show that feat to an astrophysicist and ask him to quantify it, he'll laugh in your face. You show the star feat and do the same, and he'll give you approximate estimations based on what we know of stars.

HOWEVER, if you want to use joke feats, Hulk punched through a TIME BARRIER. And he did this BY HIMSELF. That's right, he punched through time itself, the measurement of events that binds all or reality together:

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Boom. Hulk is stronger. Seriously give me a break.

Anyways, you CAN make a ranged estimate for the mass of the star. How is this concept so foreign to you??? Just take the smallest star possible and the largest star possible and it's logical to conclude that the star's weight is somewhere in that area. If you want to play it safe, then assume it's the smallest star possible. This is basic reasoning at its finest. How can you possibly not understand this.

1. It's not a greater feat because it's rubbish. A joke. We know nothing of the nature of the entity in question. And even if we took your extremely superficial perspective on this scan, it was stated the multiverse was GROWING. For all we know, only a planet or two had grown inside it. This whole scan and your argument is asinine.

2. It's plain* and simple, the greater feat was done by Hulk who punched through time whether you think its quantifiable or not it was done read the scan and what was said take it from that. Accept it or go try and measure it :)

3. Again we know nothing about that abstract construct. If we take a black and white look at it, the multiverse was GROWING inside it, we could assume it barely had any weight comparable to even the smallest star. You'd have to pull assumptions out of thin air left and right. Meanwhile the star feats can be reasonably quantified.

4. No they can't. Stars HAVE to be a certain size in order to be a star. You don't even know what you're talking about.

5. Again......I don't think you can accept a feat and question it at the same time. That's like saying I trust you but question your motives.....that seriously makes no sense.

6. We still know all the masses for all possible stars and that's the only thing that matters. If we used a different example, let's say someone was hit with a force strong enough to destroy a planet. Do we have to see it destroy an actual planet and see its size to get an idea of how strong it could possibly be. No, we can infer the force required to destroy all estimated sizes of planets possible and safely assume it's somewhere in that realm.

Supes winning in other threads is completely irrelevant to this thread. I agree Supes would win generally but not here where speed is equalized and he certainly isn't physically stronger.

That feat is not greater than the shazam and superman feat for one.

We all ready know and read the story behind that time barrier feat .

Hulk is not Stronger and he is not getting pass superman . We could debate about who is stronger and the bigger feat still belongs to superman . Superman has way more ways to defeat the HULK Heat vision is the easiest way. Since it been done in recent comics the same principle applies here. End that who would win speed equalized debate. HULK still loses . Superman knocks him out physically due to been the better fighter. Heat vision or regular Punches . Here is another fact . Since speed is equalize . Heat vision and freeze breath is hulks worse night mare. Punch and freeze, punch freeze mix it up heat vision Knocks the Hulk out . Again stops at 4 . No counter for that . Cant avoid freeze breathe or heat vision.

1. Accept the feat . You could cry all day it was done. Just like i said from the start i accepted the weight of a star holding down the Hulk and poor Hulk couldnt move or get any madder or this so call unlimited strength. So i am guessing you are telling me that Hulk is limited to a star wait any star big or small. Oh my . Where is the madder the hulk get the stronger i guess the limits has been shown.

2. I accepted it long ago and read the comic and know what happen even with assist i am going to give it to the HULK :). I am not sure how breaking the time barrier is greater than lifting the an entire universe well even worse an abstract being with unlimited intelligence bigger than a universe . . Again i dont know why you target me claiming hulk bench press a star . Poor Hulk couldnt even move .

3. No complaining on the feat accept it move on. The feat is top notch lol . i know Superman still the king of the PIS and CIS. Hulk will always be behind in that too .

4. This is comic world anything is possible. I think saw silver surfer with mini one recently.

5.You accept the laws do you follow all of them ? Its basically like settling . You accept a gift do you want the gift ? Basically i am settling for what it is. For now till further evidence says other wise .

6. Speed is not the only way to win . HULK is not taking down superman. Next time ask the OP to take away flight/ heat vision/ ice breathe / accuracy / micro/ xtra vision/ fighting ability/ Yes beg him to put on morals as well.

hulk punching through the time barrier might be the dumbest feat in comic book history.

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#128 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#129 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#130 Posted by DrF8 (3309 posts) - - Show Bio

There's alot of people who say that Hulk would beat Superman due to Speed equalizer. And that Superman can beat Hulk only due to his Speed. It's not true. Superman has so much power that most people on this thread seem to forget. LASER BEAMS, FREEZE BREATH, FLYING. Also i think Superman is more durable and ( as for me ) stronger ( i know, i know. Now there will be plentybof people who will say im an idiot ) even when Hulk is enraged. I want you all to remember that Clark is always holding back. You remember the time when Supes could move a dążeń planets with his hands?

Also : Superman can breath in space. I don't remember any moment when Hulk could do it.

With all the powers i cited above...Hulk doesn't stand a chance. Superman can just throw him into space and wait until Hulk will stop breathing...or just fly out of Hulk's range and make him a brain lobotomy. Or freeze him and THEN throw to space. Or basicly...just beat him to death. Hulk is not invincible. Superman is not invincible either...but let's face it : Clark is way more powerfull.

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#132 Posted by Solar_Powered (589 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: This feat goes against nearly everything we've seen from Hulk.

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#133 Posted by OreoAssassin (7625 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Im honored to have a post like that on my thread! Great work man

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#134 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio
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#135 Posted by Easternwind (4590 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: He resisted the weight, same stuff for me *shrugs* :P

benching for days is far more impressive.

However since a star is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earth,

Hulks feat is far better

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#136 Edited by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel:

Well he has blitzed a few metahuman cowboys who were fast enough to turn colt 45s into gattling guns.

All this does is show that he's much faster than them which isn't relevant here. None of the scans you showed that Hulk is capable of blitzing someone in his class speed wise. Hell, you showed a scan where daredevil reacted to a blitz from him. I'm not denying that Hulk does blitz, but I don't think he can blitz someone as fast as Superman is in this scenario.

Not necessarily, Hulks much stronger than superman and the only real advantage clark has when blitzing is using flight. Its equalised speed and they both blitz regularly, having more experience doesnt have to mean your better at something.

Fight is a pretty big advantage in blitzing. Superman used his flight manueverability in combo with his speed to one-shot Bizzaro with a blitz. Having more experience does mean one is better than something provided their capacity for doing it is the same.

Thats all well and good but as far as im aware (correct me if im wrong) bizarro doesn't have a SINGLE cold resistance feat to his name, feats that hulk actually has.

Yes he does. Bizzaro can withstand the vaccum of space without a problem, and space is 3 degrees Kelvin so his Ice Breath is at least 2 degrees Kelvin, I personally think it would be around .5 degrees Kelvin considering 1 degree usually doesn't make that much of a difference. Not to mention Superwoman can also withstand the vaccum of space but she couldn't break out of his ice handcuffs.

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yes its that one again. What hulk is blitzing through is absolute zero in temperature, granted his suit helped him but his suit only covers a portion of his body and its not known excactly how much it helped. There are a few more scans of hulk resisting cold temperatures, just ask if you want to see them. Now of course ice breath can help, just not nearly as much as to temporarily incap hulk.

What is there to show that it was absolute zero? And you can't just ignore that the suit was helping him there, especially since Superman can probably disassemble the armor if he needs to.

are there any other instances of him doing that? Its a good feat but im curious as to whether its a "regular" ability he would use.

Not really, but there's a better offensive use of the ice breath. I'll get to that when I go in depth of Clarks versaility.

Im aware how powerful his heat vision is, you just need to factor in hulk resistance to heat based attacks.

For one he resisted gladiators heat vision which is said to burn hotter than stars:

Mate, that heat vision was plowing through him like nothing. Seriously, if Gladiator had fired for his eyes and burnt his brain he'd be dead. And yes, you're right that Kallark has weaker HV than Clark, and not only that but he's a lot more precise with his heat vision and can use it in many more ways. More on that later.

He managed to take the power of a supernova (which was time warped into proximas spear) whilst being held down by the weight of a star (a testament to his strength) whilst being stabbed by corvus glaive:

This is a lifting feat. Nothing more. Unless Superman gets into an arm lock with him or gets bear hugged it's not relevant.

Hulk has been shown to thunderclap in a 360 degree view multiple times, he did it during hulk vs ironman actually...

Doesn't change that he can simply outpace them.

Just because hes morals off doesnt mean he is completely out of character. I can cite numerous instances where clark does not sit back and engage from a distance against a stronger foe. people like:

  • general eiling
  • superboy prime
  • despero
  • doomsday
  • darkseid

Actually he was lopping off Eiling's arms with heat vision when they fought.

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With Despero it wouldn't have mattered, prime was too fast, darkseid too ranged, and he did do it with Doomsday as I showed above. Use better examples next time. Besides, this is far from the only other option he has.

must I go on? superman will almost definitely engage in close quarters after a speed blitz and that will be his downfall, Hes simply outclassed in the physical department and trying to use pressure point will get him nowhere since hulkimmune to them, danny found that out the hard way...

What's that supposed to prove? Danny lacks the strength to harm Hulk nerve strikes or no. Hulk resisting Danny's pressure points doesn't mean he can do the same to Superman.

I already spoke about heat vision and yes, it will hurt, just not nearly enough to bring hulk down, And the reason hulk cant blitz people at his level of speed is because of his mindset. he doesn't react as a speedster does, he can run fast but cant react as well at those speeds. this has been spoke about countless times. equalised speed tends to include equalised reactions, otherwise itd be pointless. so yes, he can blitz superman at these speeds.

Heat vision might not bring Hulk down, but it's not like Superman doesn't have the stiking power to bring down Hulk especially if he pools in heat vision and his other powers to help. You yourself are confirming that Superman can blitz Hulk if he can't react at that sort of speed. I'd agree that recations are equalized, it's just that some of Hulks speed comes from his reactions. He's reacted to Quicksilver and Silver Surfer before. You showed scans of him pulling a multi-hit combo on the Deputies, which isn't possible without reactions on par with his movement speed.

I'd like to go more into Supermans versaility. First heat vision, which he can apply in a number of useful ways in combat.

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  • The first scan shows him performing expert Ricochet shots with his heat vision mid combat no less. He fires it with pin point effeciency taking out his enemies means of flight and nothing else. Notice how he says "How many different ways can he put them down?" This implies Superman has a plethora of heat vision combat tactics at his disposal.
  • Then we see that Superman has enough control and precision with his heat vision to burn bullets right out of the air with it.
  • During Last Son Superman used heat vision to write a message to Lois by bouncing his heat vision off a satallite. This means that he can control how hot individual sections of his heat vision are and can make some colder than the others. The satallite was clearly undamaged by his blast yet the thicker walls were actually burnt, which is an unparalled level of precision.
  • Finally we have Superman using rapid fire heat vision to destroy Kyrptonian drones. What I love about this scan is him explaining that he's had years to master his powers allowing him to use them in a variety of ways that give him an immense edge over other Kyrptonians in combat.

This would be most useful for disabling Hulks armor and getting him from behind, which should be easy given the number of reflective surfaces in the city.

I mentioned an offensive use of the ice breath.He can amp the effectiveness of Heat Vision by freezing a spot first and causing more damage due to the contrasting temperatures. Superman can pool all of his powers into deadly blitzes dubbed by Lvenger the "super combo". I'm just gonna save time and copy his piece about it from the Superman and Hulk vs Goku and Sentry CAV.

But if you thought those feats were good, check out my piece de resistance. The ‘Super Combo’ as I call it.

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  • It begins with Scans 1-4 scans of Mongul training Superman to use more than one ability in combat in preparation for Imperiex’s invasion of Earth. This feat shows the most fruitful of Superman and Mongul’s training sessions where Superman starts to use his speed, strength, heat vision and freeze breath all in an incredibly short space of time. Were it not for the hypersonic pitch, Superman may well have done more damage to Mogul.
  • Scans 5-6 show Superman’s attacks on an Imperiex Drone, something that Mongul could not defeat on his own as he notes in the scan. Yet Superman’s attack manages to stagger the drone which shows how far he had come in Mongul’s training.
  • But I’ve saved the best till last. During the Invasion of Earth, one Imperiex drone caused huge trouble for many of Earth’s heroes. Yet in these scans, Superman utterly overwhelms one on his own after it had destroyed nearly all of Topeka and cracks its armour causing it to detonate. He also tanks a point blant explosion from this drone that KOed Wonder Woman when she blew one up. Ultimately, this is what makes Superman so much more versatile than Goku. His raw physical power combined with his speed and energy projection mixed in with ingenious and inventive uses of his powers within combat. This untraditional yet common sense approach to the battle of Superman using his strengths in their fullest and most varied ways should Goku push him that far is what will really, and I do mean really, put Goku on the back foot. I also have more of these feats to use as back up

There's also vibration. This is one of Superman's lesser known abilities but he's used it enough for it to be of relevance here. If Superman fights like this Hulk won't even be able to touch him.

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And like I said before, we have pressure points. You still haven't really proven to me that Hulk is immune to these and it's entirely in Superman's character to use them.

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In two of the blitzes I showed before(Blitzing Eiling and the CSA) he cause sonic booms due to the speed of his blitzes. Given the speed Superman fights in he often lets off supersonic booms. This probably won't do much more than annoy Hulk, but they should at least distract him seeing as one harmed Ultraman and Superwoman, and he's setting off several with every hit if he's fighting like he did against Galin in the first scan.

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Because of this he's capable of replicating Hulks Thunderclaps . Granted he doesn't have nearly their power but he can still do some pretty big damage with them considering he one-shotted an F5 tornado with one and used one to harm Arion when he'd assumed a form specifically to counter Superman.

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There's also using his speed to create Whirlwinds. Because Clark grew up in Kansas which frequently has tornados he seems to have become fascinated with them and as such uses them effectively in combat. These can be effective enough to send a team of a-list Superheroes flying, drain Oxygen from Hats lungs, disorient Ultraman, and contain Nuclear blasts.

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Supermans fight with the CSA is one of his best showings for versatility. He starts off by breaking the sound barrier and throwing them off with a sonic boom. Then he uses pin point heat vision to explode Owlmans utility belt and promptly ice handcuffs Superwoman. He lets Ultraman blitz him away so he doesn't have to fight him and Superwoman at the same time, then blitzes Ultraman into the water while pouring on him with multi-hit combo pressure points. He makes sure to use the water to his advantage and throws him off with a vaccum before finishing with a powerful hit. Superwoman finally gets over there and he one-shots her using Ultraman as a bat.

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There's also Supermans combat stratagies. I won't go that in depth with this one seeing as I've spent enough time on this thread as it is, I just want to showcase that Superman can fight stratigically and resourcfully and I feel that will help him immensely against Hulk.

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This one is my favorite. Here Superman fights Bizzaro and Mongul, two extremely powerful foes both in his strength and manages to handle them both at the same time in a few pages without much trouble. Initially the two knock him around like a ping pong ball which makes him realize that he can't win in a purely physical fight. First he lets himself take an orbit decking hit from Bizzaro so he can choose the battlefield, specifically tropical seas where he can soak up plenty of solar energy. He then uses his superior use of combat speed in combonation with his flight manueverability to build up momentum and one-shot Bizzaro with a blitz. Then he uses his superior speed to avoid Monguls hits and tire him out allowing Superman to one-shot him with a powerful blow.

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@lvenger said:

@highaccuser said:

@lvenger: yes but it's on matter which you are the sites main expert.

I wouldn't say main expert myself, maybe one of the top experts sure.

Oh give yourself some credit. 90 percent of the scans I just used were yours.

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#137 Posted by hirev_starman (2195 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Superman

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#138 Posted by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

Loebforce Rulk wins, if not he clears

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#139 Posted by WastelandMan (8747 posts) - - Show Bio

@termiteone4ever:

We are not getting any where. Its not like i dont see your points.We are not getting any where and you are not convincing me. You are not showing me anything new that i havent seen or read. You have some things twisted . You also got caught by asking the same question i was asking. My point still stands Superman would defeat hulk here . Superman is still stronger.

The only thing you're right about is that I'm not convincing you. I wasn't "caught" doing anything. You were the one spewing out logical fallacies left and right and seeing what you want to see in completely unquantifiable feats. Keep telling yourself Superman is physically stronger. But yeah we're at an impasse I guess.

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#140 Posted by WastelandMan (8747 posts) - - Show Bio

hulk punching through the time barrier might be the dumbest feat in comic book history.

It was dumb, exactly, but that was my point. Termite wanted to use an equally dumb feat to prove Supes is stronger. I showed the time barrier feat to demonstrate that using crazy feats like this to prove a character's level of strength is silly and borders the no-limit fallacy.

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#141 Posted by A_A_A (57 posts) - - Show Bio

2

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#142 Posted by GhostRavage (14928 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: This feat goes against nearly everything we've seen from Hulk.

Not really considering Hulk has stupider feats thanks to Tales to Astonish and Classic days. Anyway, why exactly is that feat against Hulk's other feats?

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#143 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: oh boy. I was trying to stick to recent feats (hence why I didn't use silver surfer or quicksilver etc) and you seemed to ignore a lot of my post. I'll have a post up later today but after that I nothing changes then we should probably just agree to disagree.

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#144 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: oh boy. I was trying to stick to recent feats (hence why I didn't use silver surfer or quicksilver etc) and you seemed to ignore a lot of my post. I'll have a post up later today but after that I nothing changes then we should probably just agree to disagree.

I'm fine with you referencing anything from before the explosion of Sakarr considering it's confirmed he's more powerful after that point.

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#145 Edited by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

All this does is show that he's much faster than them which isn't relevant here. None of the scans you showed that Hulk is capable of blitzing someone in his class speed wise. Hell, you showed a scan where daredevil reacted to a blitz from him. I'm not denying that Hulkdoes blitz, but I don't think he can blitz someone as fast as Superman is in this scenario.

I was thinking you would bring that up... This has been debunked time again, the main reason he struggles tagging people on his speed level is due to his mindset/reaction time. Hes incredibly fast but lacks the reaction time to put it to good use, equalised speed would also include equalised reaction time, otherwise it would be pointless. Put it this way, hulk has a good speed level but poor reaction level (relatively speaking). So yes he will land a blitz almost as much as superman will since he also has the same reactionlevel.

Fight is a pretty big advantage in blitzing. Superman used his flight manueverability in combo with his speed to one-shot Bizzaro with a blitz. Having more experience does mean one is better than something provided their capacity for doing it is the same.

Hulks huge strength advantage would lessen the gap and whilst taking down bizzaro is a good feat, bizzaro isnt on the same level durability wise that hulk is.

Yes he does. Bizzaro can withstand the vaccum of space without a problem, and space is 3 degrees Kelvin so his Ice Breath is at least 2 degrees Kelvin, I personally think it would be around .5 degrees Kelvin considering 1 degree usually doesn't make that much of a difference. Not to mention Superwoman can also withstand the vaccum of space but she couldn't break out of his ice handcuffs.

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batman has survived in the vaccum of space before, even human level heroes have survived in the vaccum of space. I doubt writers even acknowledge that space is cold, virtually every hero has been exposed to it and survived. Unless you have another feat of him resisting freezing cold temperature then im sticking with what i said earlier.

As for superwoman, hulk is in a different league entirely when it comes to strength.

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  • Lifts, pulls and pushes the tectonic plates of a planet 1/3 bigger than earth whilst greatly weakened. The planet was called sakaar and happened at the end of planet hulk.
  • Powered dooms machine which covered the earth and temporarily held off exitar. I will cite hulk expert acidskull and use his explanation which I took from his and ghostravages excellent context files: hulk thread.

    A lot of recent feats have tons of controversy surrounding them, but I'm not even sure why this one was questioned, considering that the contents of the issue are pretty much pointed out, but even some hulk fans seemed to think that this was a bit off. Well I'm here to tell you that this feat is just valid as the writer wanted it to be. Look as always, I'll just fast forward to the good stuff. What you need to know that earth is under attack, and they need to hold of a gigantic being called exitar, who's roughly about the same size as the earth itself. But creating a shield strong enough to hold this beast off is tricky, because you need a power source that can actually do the job. So who do they choose? That's right, Hulk.

    Despite being under incredible amount of pain, hulk holds him off for a good long while, but the problem, as I understand, that people seem to have with the scene is that the plan eventually fails, which, reasonably enough, results in the belief that it was Hulks fault( Yeah blame the monster, real mature guys). But the problem with that idea is that THE WRITER as well as the artist show that the reason the shield didn't work wasn't because of Hulk, it was the device itself. I mean, if we even observe how the whole thing went down, doom, Stark, and vision could have given a hand, but they didn't because they obviously believed that that it wouldn't have made a significant difference

    . Remender makes it pretty much clear that it was the device that exploded, so the plan going south had NOTHING to do with hulk, I mean, take a look:

    It's pretty much directly shown to you. Hulks power was harnessed to create this massive shield, and he held his end of the bargain, but unfortunately, the device could not hold, so their defenses were ruined. Hell, Vision comments on hulk is doingwonderfully and the next panel shows iron man telling us that they have a fracture,how much clearer can it get?

    I think I've made my point.

  • held the weight of a star on his back, I will go into this feat later as well...

What is there to show that it was absolute zero? And you can't just ignore that the suit was helping him there, especially since Superman can probably disassemble the armor if he needs to.

Uh, I dunno. maybe when it states that its absolute zero? And the suit was only covering a portion of his body, its also not known how much it helped. Im not ignoring it just saying that how much it contributed is unknown.

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"Approaching region of Absolute zero"

Mate, that heat vision was plowing through him like nothing. Seriously, if Gladiator had fired for his eyes and burnt his brain he'd be dead. And yes, you're right that Kallark has weaker HV than Clark, and not only that but he's a lot more precise with his heat vision and can use it in many more ways. More on that later.

this time i

This is very often used instance by Superman supporters when arguing against Hulk, they say Hulk would be highly affected by Superman's heat vision because Hulk almost "died" by taking Gladiator's heat vision. The notion might seem applicable at first glance, but when a few contextual factors are mentioned then it doesn't seem right to claim such statements.

The statements start when this scan from Incredible Hulk Annual '97 is posted out of context in the forums...

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In this issue Gladiator was fighting Hulk and the moment of using Gladiator's HV came and he was literally burning Hulk's insides quite easily with it, however, Hulk's powers were seriously fluctuating during this time, for the exact same reasons as Apocalypse restraining him... He was the nexus between 2 universes and the energies flowing through him were killing him. In fact, one of his most affected attributes was his durability which coincidentally was precisely what he lacked in this instance. This drop on his durability is first showcased in Deadpool #4 when he is harmed with with astonishingly ease...

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The scans are self-explanatory, if Hulk is easily impaled by a street sign, then there's absolutely no doubt he was seriously affected. Which only makes Gladiator's instance even more impressive since Hulk fought Gladiator head on while having his durability and healing factor greatly dampened even taking his heat vision which is stated to burn as hot as the core of stars, which essentially, is even hotter than Superman's.

moving on...

This is a lifting feat. Nothing more. Unless Superman gets into an arm lock with him or gets bear hugged it's not relevant.

Proximas spear is also powered by the force of a supernova. In the scan hes being pinned down by the weight of a star, and also being attacked by proximas spear, hmm i wonder what force she was using with that spear... That and he was simultaneously attacked by corvus glaive who single handedly did this to hyperion:

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its worth to note that hyperion later killed corvus due to a stroke of luck; cap reflected proximas attack into corvus (by accident) and put two large holes into his body. hyperion then took the opportunity to give corvus a piece of his mind.

Doesn't change that he can simply outpace them.

show me a scan of superman outpacing anything akin to a thunderclap. Absolutely anything. considering someone like jay Garrick is a bit above lightspeed and black adams thunderclap momentarily stunned him:

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I believe its safe to say that thunderclaps will at the very least momentarily stun superman.

Actually he was lopping off Eiling's arms with heat vision when they fought.

yet still tried fighting hand to hand at different points in the fight.

With Despero it wouldn't have mattered, prime was too fast, darkseid too ranged, and he did do it with Doomsday as I showed above. Use better examples next time. Besides, this is far from the only other option he has.

With despero he could have tried, at least trying to keep prime at range would have been better than engaging him in hand to hand, especially after their first encounter. point to you on darkseid, and he didnt do it consistently with doomsday.

What's that supposed to prove? Danny lacks the strength to harm Hulk nerve strikes or no. Hulk resisting Danny's pressure points doesn't mean he can do the same to Superman.

To my knowledge hulk has never been harmed by pressure points before, besides how would superman even know where they are? assuming he has any. hes adapted countless times before and his physiology would be completely different to a regular humans.

This would be most useful for disabling Hulks armor and getting him from behind, which should be easy given the number of reflective surfaces in the city.

His armor doesnt really do much to be honest aside from a few things that the plot needs. all its done thats been significant is allow him to move completely unaffected in absolute zero temperatures and assist him in surviving in the time stream. If superman wants to disable the armor itd take A LOT of punishment to do it and it wouldnt be taking away to much from hulk. attacking from behind is helpful though and would help superman.

This would be most useful for disabling Hulks armor and getting him from behind, which should be easy given the number of reflective surfaces in the city.

I have to admit that those are some good showings. not much to counter other than that superman would be wasting his time trying to chip away at the armor.

There's also vibration. This is one of Superman's lesser known abilities but he's used it enough for it to be of relevance here. If Superman fights like this Hulk won't even be able to touch him.

Hes used it three times if I recall correctly and only used it offensively once. feel free to correct me on that one though.

And like I said before, we have pressure points. You still haven't really proven to me that Hulk is immune to these and it's entirely in Superman's character to use them.

Hes never been hurt more by a pressure point attack. in all his years of publication I cant recall one instance of him being affected by it. not to mention hes evolved countless times over the years so who knows what his physiologys like? I might agree with you if superman had time to scan hulk with his x ray vision but since hulk will be charging at him constantly i doubt hed have the chance.

n two of the blitzes I showed before(Blitzing Eiling and the CSA) he cause sonic booms due to the speed of his blitzes. Given the speed Superman fights in he often lets off supersonic booms. This probably won't do much more than annoy Hulk, but they should at least distract him seeing as one harmed Ultraman and Superwoman, and he's setting off several with every hit if he's fighting like he did against Galin in the first scan.

Im pretty sure they wont do much more than annoy hulk, perfect.

his one is my favorite. Here Superman fights Bizzaro and Mongul, two extremely powerful foes both in his strength and manages to handle them both at the same time in a few pages without much trouble. Initially the two knock him around like a ping pong ball which makes him realize that he can't win in a purely physical fight. First he lets himself take an orbit decking hit from Bizzaro so he can choose the battlefield, specifically tropical seas where he can soak up plenty of solar energy. He then uses his superior use of combat speed in combonation with his flight manueverability to build up momentum and one-shot Bizzaro with a blitz. Then he uses his superior speed to avoid Monguls hits and tire him out allowing Superman to one-shot him with a powerful blow.

The problem with this analysis is that superman uses his speed to his advantage, For one hulk is much stronger than mongul and bizzaro and in this scenario he is exactly as fast as superman. dont get me wrong, its a great feat but one that wouldnt really help much with hulk.

Id prefer to end it here mate, im really not the best person for you to be debating hulk with. ghostravage or acidskull can make much better arguments than I can and would represent hulk better than I can. Anyway, if this post does nothing then we should probably just agree to disagree.

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#146 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: for some reason below where it says "region of absolute zero" comicvine didn't show half my post. It's supposed to say "this time I'll cite hulk expert ghostravage on the matter".

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#147 Edited by WastelandMan (8747 posts) - - Show Bio
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#148 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@m_man: thanks man, I'm not really used to this full on debate thing.

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#149 Posted by Solar_Powered (589 posts) - - Show Bio
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#150 Posted by GhostRavage (14928 posts) - - Show Bio

@solar_powered: And? It's totally understandable when Hulk's powerset works precisely like that, it depends on situations and how stressful they are. Even then, i fail to see the feat as erratic if Hulk actually had a permanent amp Post-2006 which even without getting angrier nor reaching uncontrollable states he already operates on planetary scale.