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#1 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

1) Maka Albarn (Soul Eater Manga)

2) Cloud Strife (Fusion Swords, Fenrir, Firaga Materia, Thundaga Materia, Restore Mataria, Haste Materia, 2 Ethers, 2 Potions)

3) Rei Ogami (Code: Breaker Manga)

4) Gromph Baenre (War of the Spider Queen) (Standard Gear)

1) Gorgon (Godkiller Blade)

2) Liara T'soni (Full level adept, Carnifex hand cannon, Geth SMG, Standard Armor)

3) Alita (TUNED Body, Damascus Blades, Pistol, Heavy Rifle, Knives, Grenades -- Frag, Smoke, Flashbang, Incendiary, EMP and Arachnos, Firefly, Mono Molecular Wire, Probe Lice, Missile Bees) -- has Gabriel Support Satellite and Mobile Unit

4) Isaac Netero (No Rose)

Battle Field

No Caption Provided
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Floopay Starts farthest Left Dredeuced Starts farthest Right

Prep: Both Teams get 45 Minuet Prep to study the map and a basic roster on the enemy team.

In Character

Teams will work together

No BFR

Death or KO

Cannot go past Buildings

Perks

Each team can have 2 members choose the following Perks.

Super Carbonadium Weapon Upgrade. Hand Weapons are Indestructible and Slow Healing Factors. This applies to Projectiles (Guns and Ammo, Bows and Arrows, Batarangs, ect) as well.

Magic Psy Shield. Your character can have immunity to all Psychic attack and powers. Includes Illusion Casting, Status Changers (Poison, Blindness, ect), Magic attacks, and Time Manipulation as well.

Mijnor Armor. Characters gains a version of Halo (First Game) Master Chief Armor with Shields. Only the Durability Enhancement Applies.

The Venom, Banshee, and Red Eye Drug. Gain Wolverine's Healing Factor and Senses. Gain Bane's strength added onto yours. Gain Bullet Speed onto your own. The strength and Speed Benefit WILL Legally put you past the set stats! As In you will be stronger and Faster than the limits if your character is already at the limit.

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#2 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Man I don't know crap about anyone on your team except for Cloud. WELP, research time.

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#3 Posted by beatboks1 (9765 posts) - - Show Bio

good luck guys. Dreduced love to help with the research, but you know 1 more than me

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#4 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn Floopay and his Obscure Characters lol.

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#5 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

What da feck is a gromph

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#6 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: @CadenceV2:

I don't like debating with the same characters too often, so I like to switch things up and grab new characters from random bits of fiction I've read. Also, I like math, so quantifying new feats is fun for me. :P

Perks:

The Venom, Banshee, and Red Eye Drug. x2

Cloud Strife

Maka Albarn

45 Minutes Prep

  • Gromph will erect flame barriers on my team (just as the battle starts), as well as set up a contingency spell (with the rest of his prep time). He will also give his brooch and give Ogami the command word on how to use it, as well as set up a link between my characters to communicate with each other over any distance. All of these are pretty easy for someone of his level to do, and they will literally only take about 2 minutes per task.
  • Gromph will also give himself perfect precognition just before the fight starts. He can also Gaze Screen my entire party, which would give them massive resistance vs. gaze attacks.
  • Maka will use her noise cancellation and will be in charge of tracking/calling for my team.
  • Ogami will just get ready, and he will know how to use the brooch, which will be nice.
  • Cloud also just prepares his stuff, and gives his potions to Ogami, just in case, as well as one Ether.

Gromph Baenre (War of the Spider Queen):

Overvew:

Race: Drow, a.k.a Dark Elf

Profession: Archmage (spell caster, wizard, diviner)

Permanent Effects:See invisible, dark vision (enables full vision regardless of the lighting), detect magic

Enhanced Stats and Racial abilities

High Reflexes: As a drow, Gromph possesses above average reflexes to those of a human being.

Genius Level Intelligence: Gromph is extremely intelligent, and a well accomplished spell caster. He is the archmage of one of the greatest wizard academies of his world.

Natural Spells: Gromph can do the following because of his race: magical darkness, dancing lights, faerie fire

Specialty Equipment (Oh Boy!)

Archmage Robes: Not only do they allow him to store near limitless spell supplies, but they instantly come to him when he reaches for spells! Also provides great resistance to impact damage, as well as to the elements, and magic.

Piwafwi of Resistance: Provides extra resistance towards elements and magic, as well as a slight degree of protection against incoming damage.

Ring of Protection: Provides extra resistance toward physical damage

Ring of Regeneration: Provides extreme regeneration, perhaps even Wolverine level. Was able to reattach his leg in several minutes (not regrow mind you).

Drow House Insignia: Allows levitation at will.

Various Scrolls, Rods, and Wands: He has several wands and scrolls within his robes, all of which have a wide variety of spells attached to them. I may be using these as they appear several times within the books.

Boots of Speed: Allow Gromph to move faster than normal

Soulstealing Axe: Has the soul of a mindflayer in it. Powerful chopping item.

Staff of Power: Has the following abilities:

  • Magic Missile
  • Ray of enfeeblement
  • Continual flame
  • Levitate
  • Lightning Bolt
  • Fireball
  • Cone of Cold
  • Hold Monster
  • Wall of Force
  • Globe of Invulnerability

I do have actual feats with it. Also, it increases his resistance to magic, elements, and physical damage.

Maka Albarn(Soul Eater) (Manga Version)

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Superhuman Strength - Maka Albarn far exceeds the strength limits of a normal human being.

Superhuman Durability - Maka can take a beating like no other, and apparently many of her opponents have had no qualms putting quite the beating on such a little girl....

Superhuman Speed/Reflexes - Maka can travel, move, and react at speeds higher than those of a regular human being.

Flight - Maka can fly with the use of her weapon/partner Soul Eater because of her grigori soul.

Soul Perception - Maka can perceive the souls of others from extreme distances away.

Anti-Demon Wavelength - Maka's soul can output a wavelength to cancel mind altering affects, as well as purify tainted souls.

Soul Eater - Her weapon/partner is Soul Eater. He is a Death Scythe, and nigh indestructible.

Abilities via Soul Eater:

Soul Resonance - By resonating each other's souls together, the two can amplify all their abilities significantly. Just by being joined together, the two are many times more powerful, they can resonate further to produce a myriad of effects and outcomes.

Noise Cancelling - Soul Eater, on his own, can use this ability to strengthen his team mates, as well as cancel out the effects of mind controlling attacks.

Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy 7 Composite) (No Dead Fantasy Feats)

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Weapon: Fushion Sword

Vehicles: Fenrir

Superhuman Strength - Cloud can leap superhuman distances, shove people through several floors of steel and concrete with a push, can slice through meters of steel/concrete effortlessly, and he wields a weapon so heavy that two athletic human beings can barely hope to budge it with their combined efforts (wields it with one hand).

Superhuman Reflexes - Cloud has dodged lightning after it has been fired, dodged bullets when the gun is pressed against his forehead, deflected, dodged, and blocked gunfire with zero effort, and fought multiple hypersonic foes simultaneously without sustaining injury.

Superhuman Durability - Cloud has continued to fight after being stabbed through the chest multiple times, as well as the arms, legs, and hands. He has tanked shots that shatter stone pillars without any harm to his person, been thrown through steel constructs without sustaining harm, and is all but immune to the effects of heat.

Superhuman Speed - He can move at superhuman speeds, greater than those of the finest athlete.

Memory Mimicry - Cloud, on multiple occasions, has mimiced the memories of others and added them to his own. The first person for him to do this to was Zack Fair, and he was able to copy most, if not all, of Zack's training, and replicate it to a greater degree (elaborate more on that later).

Levitation - Cloud can levitate and fly under his own power, and this may explain his aerial control when leaping.

Limit Breaks - For unexplained reasons, Cloud can access several powers similar to the way Zack Fair accesses his Digital Mind Wave for a variety of effects, including:

  • Braver - A powerful leaping attack.
  • Braver v.2 - A powerful leaping attack that sends out a large cone of attacks that rip through steel like butter.
  • Cross-Slash - Stuns or paralyzes an opponent momentarily
  • Blade Beam - Sends out a powerful energy beam from his sword, capable of stopping a rolling Earth attack
  • Climmhazard - Amplifies his cutting power to an unknown degree, but allows him to cut through things that his attacks normally would have no effect on.
  • Finishing Touch - A powerful wind attack that can fling a normal sized person over a hundred meters with but a swing of his sword.
  • Omnislash - A fifteen strike combo, used when an opponent opens up a vulnerability in their defense or fighting style, mainly used as a counter-attack
  • Omnislash version 6 - A thirteen strike combo directly through a person's soul.
Talented Engineer - Cloud customized his own motorcycle to hold all parts of his Fushion Sword, and regularly maintains it.
Master Swordsman - Cloud is a master swordsman, capable of switching between one handed, two handed, and two weapon style seamlessly.

Ogami Rei (Code: Breaker Manga)

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and evil for evil" -Ogami Rei

Superhuman Strength - Ogami's physical stats are beyond that of a normal human being. After training for weeks inside an non-ventilated weighted suit, as well as undergoing several other training regiments, he has boosted his strength far beyond the limits of any normal human being.

Superhuman Durability/Endurance - Same as above, plus he can tank hits like no other.

Superhuman Speed and Reflexes - Prior to his training, he was able to pretty easily block bullets with his hand from point blank, after he was far above a normal bullet timer.

Hybrid Genetics - Ogami is a hybrid between a power user and a rare kind. Pretty much nonsense to anyone who hasn't read the manga, but this is what allows him to boost his stats to extreme levels.

Commander of the Flames of Purgatory - Ogami wields a powerful set of abilities that allow him a whole host of exotic attacks. This ranges from disintegrating fire, power cancellation, wide-ranged controlled heat, removing heat, etc.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#7 Edited by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: @CadenceV2:

For this match:

Feel free to read any and all of the feats I provide you of Gromph, I posted them as proof of my claims. However, if you want, I will provide summaries of what the book pages contain. But again, if you are questioning the claim, feel free to read the scan or request the pages before or after the ones I provided.

Gromph Baenre:

Defenses:

Barriers and Globes:

Here is a feat of him putting a magical fire shield on a being who he had subdued to his will via magic:

Summary: Obviously he can't use the same spell to mind control your team, it only works on undead. However, the fire shield is cast on the being he took into his control, so this is just to show that he can, in fact, do it.

Gromph's shield vs slashing, piercing attacks, and lightning bolts.

Summary: Gromph's shield deflects a lightning bolt cast out by another powerful wizard. Afterwards, he conjures another fire shield, and it is able to deflect an attack from a half-dragon without harming him at all, and causing severe harm to his attacker.

Note: These magical defenses can't simply be broken by an attack. They dampen the effect of any attack against him. Even when an attack makes it through, they have been severely dampened, and the barrier still stands ready to take another round of attacks.

Ring of Regeneration

Gromph's ring saves him from death:

Summary: Gromph is stabbed through the heart, as you can see, his ring of regeneration begins knitting both parts of his leg back together in this scan, Wolverine style!

Gromph's ring saves him from death pt. 2:

Summary: More of the ring of regeneration. It not only keeps his heart going with the dagger in it, but it pushes the dagger out of his body as he heals. Sends out another wave of fire at Nimor, and by the time the lichdrow and the half-dragon have finished their assault, his wounds are fully healed. He also conjures an invisible wall of force in this scan.

Offensive:

Spells, Spells, Spells

Magical Fire

Summary: Gromph conjures some quick magical attacks against the lich! This time just a cone of flames that burn the flesh through the magical defenses of the lich.

Prismatic Spray

Summary: With a single Prismatic spray, Gromph produces a spell that sends out acid powerful enough to melt stone, powerful electricity, powerful fire (not in the description, but part of the spell), a killing spell, and a fear spell (mind affecting, makes someone too scared to confront anyone). He follows this with a spell meant to turn a caster's spell back on himself, something that doesn't really help him here. Then proceeds to cast a spell powerful enough to burn a hole through the lich's chest and turn the parts of his body it hit into dust, the lich moves out of the way just in time to not be disintegrated outright....

Minute Meteorites

Summary: Here, Gromph summons eight meteors and hurls them at his opponent. Each one of blinding white energy and detonates in "a stone-shattering explosion that demolished great gaping pieces of the undead sorcerer". The lich unleashes a set of saw blades capable of carving through stone and obsidian, yet Gromph's defenses were enough to make the blades glance off him, leaving deep, but non-fatal wounds. Just another showing of how powerful his defenses are.

Items:

With a wand, he can do this:

Summary: This is Gromph against a group of ogres and orcs. Ogres are at least in the half ton range or greater as far as max lift should be concerned, as they can bend steel bars with some effort, and they have a durability to match. They ambush Gromph as a small army. With a wand he dissolves an ogre outright, and then proceeds to obliterate his assailants as they run away in fear....

Maka Albarn

Defensive:

Immunity to Mind Affecting Attacks, and Capable of Defending my entire team and countering any mind affecting attacks

Mind affecting attack on a city level (technically, it's not a city, it's a castle, but whatever):

These guys are about as far away from the affect as you can be, and they are still feeling it.

Maka's immune to this, because of her anti-demon wavelength:

Soul Eater is also protected by her attack:

They bank off Arachne's power to widen the affected area, he can also use her soul perception to feel others souls and affect them that way.

This will render your teams offensive mind affecting techniques useless, and make my team immune to any mind controlling attacks.

As seen here, he can detect every being in this area with Maka's Soul Perception, it's only the webs that help him widen the area of affect:

You know the dangerous part about this:

If your team attempts mental assaults against my team, it will reverberate the attack right back at the user, so lets hope they can defend against their own assaults...if they are so bold to do so.

There is a price for doing this though...

The Black Dress

Maka will HAVE to do this, otherwise my team will be susceptible to Psylocke's attacks. However, after she resonates with Soul Eater when he does something like this, she creates what is called the "Black Dress".

This thing is made of Black Blood. It is nearly indestructible

Defends her against Arachne's webbing, something that would attach itself to her and paralyze her earlier, and is stronger than steel.

This would be similar to a vibranium suit

Flight:

Check. She can fly pretty fast too.

Additionally:

The perk I took gives her bullet timer reflexes, and Wolverine's level of regeneration.

Offensive

Even Early on, Maka's attacks could rip through bullet proof opponents:

Prior to the incident of the witch "Blaire" Maka had killed 100 of these super humans, as confirmed here:

After this encounter, she has all her souls taken away from her, and her soul count gets reduced to 0.

Here, she is stated to have re-collected 100 of these souls:

After that, he becomes a Death Scythe, an indestructible weapon with extreme amounts of striking power to back itself up:

Ogami Rei

Reflexes and Defense:

His Blue Flame can melt steel just by touching it, almost instantly. Here is he blocking bullets from near point blank, and they melt before they can even touch him. At this point he can only produce flame out his left hand, and no further than that.

Tanks an attack that crushes the concrete beneath him:

While injured, tanks probably a good ton of wreckage being shot at him like a cannonball.

He gets help after that scan, because he can't take 4 of them while he is that heavily damaged.

The guy he's fighting is a magnetism controller, and he's throwing steel at Ogami at blinding speeds and attempting to crush him with it, as you can see, Ogami can tank that and then some (he is even in a severely weakened state at this point)

Several tons of wreckage (you can see cars rolled into the ball, so yes, tons)

Skipped some dialogue between that previous scan and this one

Offensive:

Ogami gets attacked by that Gauss Cannon again, hurling several balls of wreckage this time...however...

Dichromatic Twing Flares of the Nether World, Mammon

When wielding these, he essentially has two extremely powerful flaming swords composed of fire.

Can melt through steel pretty easily. Just by spinning his swords fast enough, he was able to cut through the balls of steel and send them flying in other directions.

Happens again here:

The Blue Flame of Satan

This comes from when he had this ring that helped him control his powers.

This isn't a scan of him, it's an explanation of the flame and it's previous controller.

This flame burns on every level. Body, mind, and soul. It can force the person he is facing to experience death if they have killed or wronged another.

The blue flame can wreak havoc on an opponents mind

Can't burn from the outside? That's fine, it can burn from the inside as well, incinerating it's victim from the inside out.

Cloud Strife

Other Abilities

Memory Mimic

The Maiden who Travels the Planet

Chapter 5

"You did it, Tifa. Thank you... I'm a little jealous of you but, do take care of Cloud and the upper world."

Tifa embraced Cloud tightly as he returned to his senses. Aerith watched as both of them returned to the surface while smiling like an affectionate mother.

It was a dazzling sight for Zack.

"Man, you know Aerith. Out of all the girls I've gotten along with, you truly are the best. After that mission, we could have stayed the way we were and might have been able to continue to go out with each other after I returned home. I hate Sephiroth. And I hate Shinra who's been hiding all the stuff they've been doing."

"Someone who's gotten along with so many girls can never become a lover."

"How mean. I'm nice to everyone."

"And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud."

"Is that what you liked, Aerith?"

"Who knows. Things might have changed after five years."

"Heh."

Zack put on sad face as if he was sulking but then smiled carefree. It was the unchanged smile that Aerith knew from when they were young. When she was seventeen, it was what attracted her to him.

"It's not over yet but, I'm going to sleep for a while. It seems there's nothing I can do just now. But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

"Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zack."

Giving a wave, the First Rank Soldier sank into the Mako. Believing that his role was not yet over, Zack settled down to sleep to save up his energy.

Aerith wasn't going to sleep. Because she was Cetra, she didn't seem tired at all.

She was happy. She was happy that she now knew the real Cloud and was able to watch over him, even though it was just for a short while.

And so, Tifa accomplished the task. Collating her own memories with that of Cloud's, she looked for the things that only the real Cloud could know. Proofing it all, the closed door was opened. Not leaving Soldier allowed Jenova's power that was implanted in Cloud to copy the Soldier traits of his close friend, Zacks. Drawing out the deep memories that were firmly clammed up inside all of that, she reconstructed his original character instead of the fake character he created to protect himself.

Levitation

Limit Breaks, Skill, and Ability

Cloud vs. Sephiroth - In the lifestream

Because they are in a metaphysical plane of existence, it's only fair to assume they are physically equals, and that this is a contest of skill over stats.

0:55-1:10 - Sephiroth rips cloud to something similar to the astral plane, known as the lifestream

2:10-2:50 - Cloud owns the crap out of Sephiroth with omni-slash. a 15 strike combo

2:55-3:00 - Sephiroth is bleeding from several locations, confirming omni-slash, and his soul explodes into pieces (though he's not dead)

3:30-4:00 - Cloud exists within the lifestream, and pulls himself out and back to reality

4:10-4:40 - Holds himself and Tifa up with one hand, no signs of strain really

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Cloud vs. Sephiroth continued:

The Maiden who Travels the Planet

Chapter 7

But only Cloud knew about his retreat. Having been exposed to Jenova's cells, there were traces of Sephiroth's conscious in him - Part of his conscious resonated with it. Cloud could feel the existence of his remnant somewhere inside the Lifestream, continuing to obstruct Holy even now.

Letting only his conscious enter the Sea of Mako, Cloud went in pursuit of him. Riding through the currents, his old enemy was waiting for him. Sephiroth's soul was not yet destroyed and was still a threat to the Planet.

In the world of conscious energy, their swords clashed with each other as they confronted. Sephiroth, the strongest Soldier and the most admired person, tore his long sword across Cloud like a beam of light. But Cloud wasn't afraid. Believing that he had won, Sephiroth raised his long sword for his next strike and at that instant, Cloud struck out at him unleashing all the strength he had. His large blade slashed into Sephiroth's body during that brief opening. His attack opened up another opportunity for him as he struck out at Sephiroth again. It was an unstoppable storm of slashes - fifteen unavoidable attacks one after the other, cut through Sephiroth.

The mad apostate angel smiled boldly. But the damage he had taken was far beyond what he could endure and his spiritual body started to fall apart as he laughed. Beams of light blasted out from inside his body as if they were cutting him apart. Sephiroth was destroyed. Cloud's nightmare that had been continuing since five years ago in Nibelheim finally came to an end.

The Holy that was no longer obstructed immediately came into action.

This time, Cloud had separated from his body and was now in an absentminded state but, in the abyss of the Mako world, he saw a hand there to guide him. It was white and delicate - it reminded him of the hand that gave him a flower in Midgar. Unconsciously, he stretched out his hand...

His conscious returned to his body. Tifa’s hand grasped his as the ground below him collapsed away.

Summary:

Cloud displays the following:

  • The ability to separate his own consciousness from his body, and exist in an astral state (the lifestream is like the astral plane)
  • Takes a blow from Sephiroth, and then proceeds to a 15 strike attack and rips Sephiroth's spiritual body into pieces.
  • Though guidance was needed, pulled himself back into his body.
  • Not stated, but definitely there: kept his consciousness separate from the lifestream, a collective of billions of minds and souls.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth - the first conflict

1:10-1:45 - Cloud gets the jump on a distracted Sephiroth (severely distracted, tired, etc.). More impressively is his ability to lift and wield the Buster Sword, this is prior to any of his enhancements.

2:05-2:40 - Cloud lifts and runs with the Buster Sword, even performs a leap attack of Super Human levels, prior to any enhancements. This may be because

2:40-4:20 - Cloud bleeding, stabbed, barely conscious overpowers a Sephiroth who has been bleeding out a pretty hefty wound (so reasonably lost a lot of strength). Still lifts him and throws him out the reactor though, so pretty impressive. Still manages to walk around for a bit too.

The rest of the video is just before him and Zack get carried off to be tested on,

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Cloud vs. Loz and Yazoo, plus Shadow Creeps

Keep in mind: Cloud is affected by Geostigma, and nowhere near full strength for this fight.

0:20-0:40 - Cloud kills a few Shadow Creeps, as you can see, they are fast enough to keep up with the motorcycles

0:40-End - Cloud takes on Kadaj, Loz, and a ton of Shadow Creeps simultaneously. Notice his ridiculous bike skills, ability to block and dodge attacks from all enemies, and just his skill in general

1:26 - Bullet deflects off Cloud's goggles, barely scratches his forehead

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Cloud vs. Loz and Yazoo round 2

Again, Cloud is affected by Geostigma here, so far from full strength

0:00-0:15 - Cloud dodges and deflects attacks from Yazoo (guy shooting gun), while dodging and blocking Loz (fist guy)

0:25-0:40 - Blade Beam

0:41-0:50 - Fights Loz and Yazoo spamming haste like no other

0:51-1:15 - Cloud deflects, dodges, and handles Loz and Yazoo simultaneously by himself

1:16-End - Kadaj fights Cloud and seems to have the upper hand.

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Cloud vs. Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz

Again, Cloud is affected by Geostigma and it causes him extreme pain, so not fighting to the best of his abilities.

0:50-1:12 - Not only a good showing of reflexes and ability, but excellent motorcycle skills

1:15-1:21 - Dodging and dealing with Loz

1:35-1:40 - Good showing of his motorcycles durability, and his driving as well.

3:40-4:05 - Look at him handle these guys, pretty effortlessly to.

4:05-5:10 - Fast dodging, cuts a motorcycles in half, makes a fool out of these two, pretty handily too.

6:08-End - Cloud and Kadaj go toe to toe. Amazing showing of strength, speed, motorcycle skills, and how fast that thing can go.

Loading Video...

So, this should eliminate any need to research my team, in case you were thinking about it.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#8 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

A few minor questions before I compose my full argument and pick my perks (I'll probably have the argument made tomorrow thanks to the weekend):

It seems that Gromph is basically a DnD-esque character, and their spells, especially buffs, usually have very specific and finite durations and amounts of casts. You showed me him putting up two flame shields (one on himself and one on that other dude), can he keep up four? Does this affect his other spellcasting abilities to use so many spells at the start of the fight? The same goes for Gaze Screen -- both in the fact that that's eight spells casted at the start of the fight and I would like proof that he can use a spell that, for all intents and purposes, makes Gorgon's stare useless (it's a big deal, I don't think you're lying but I definitely want proof if your prep instantly takes away one of my weapons)

Secondly, a question : I know the Magic Psy Shield is primarily a defensive tool, but how exactly does the aura work? If I were to, say, put the shield on Alita and have her punch someone who had a magic shield on them, would the punch travel unaffected through the shield or would the shield work as planned?

Anyhow, I'll follow your lead and copy paste my character rundown from the previous thread:

Gorgon

No Caption Provided
  • Gorgon's mutant powers give him magical eyes capable of turning enemies to stone if they look directly into them. For safety and pride based reasons, he wears a mask to cover them unless he intentionally wants to use the ability
  • Gorgon's mutant powers allow him superhuman strength, speed, and reaction time
  • Gorgon's mutant power gives him superhuman regenerative capabilities -- equivalent to the regeneration part of the fourth perk your characters would be aware of
  • Gorgon is considered one of the most skilled martial artists and sword wielders in his world (As a fellow mutant, Madrox should atleast be vaguely aware of Tomi's reputation)
  • Gorgon has a genius level intellect in several fields of art, science and combat
  • Gorgon has moderate mutant telepathy/empathy, able to read his opponents thoughts and emotions in combat
  • Gorgon's Godkiller is a magical sword sword of undefined strength and sharpness. The name is not for show.

Liara T'soni

No Caption Provided
  • Liara is an asari, capable of using Biotics to produce mass effect fields. While similar to telekinesis, Biotics grant a larger array of specific uses besides telekinetically affect things. Also used to increase abilities to superhuman levels.
  • Seasoned combatant of many dangerous fights. Excels in working with a team due to her Biotics
  • Futuristic gear, including a plasma shooting SMG, high powered anti-armor pistol, armor capable of producing it's own mass effect shields, and an omni tool that is useful for scanning and, if necessary, acting as a sort of gauntlet to increase striking power.

Alita/Gally

No Caption Provided
  • Alita is a futuristic Cyborg with a special TUNED body that greatly enhances her physical abilities and senses to superhuman levels.
  • She has a vast array of armaments, including a very high powered Pistol and Rifle, several kinds of grenades, and various drones that can perform a multitude of tasks, a molecularly sharp diamond wire and a large Damascus blade made out of a specially hardened steel.
  • Alita is a world famous athlete and fighter on her planet and is the lone practitioner and master of a long dead martial art that uses vibrations to increase attack power, and is extremely skilled in sword combat with her Damascus blade
  • Alita comes with a special vehicle called Mobile Unit. A single wheeled cycle capable of high speeds and individual scouting, moving, and ammo replenishment.
  • Alita is assisted by her Gabriel Support System, a high altitude/low orbit support drone that gives her scouting information and supply drops. (Has a high powered laser but it is disabled for this tournament as I thought it would be vastly unfair to shoot people from the atmosphere, lol)

Isaac Netero

No Caption Provided
  • Netero is the president of the Hunter Organization, a group of elite persons of great skill who individually hunt "something."
  • Netero is an incredibly skilled and aged combatant, widely considered one of the greatest fighters in the known world.
  • Netero is considered one of, if not the, greatest practitioners of Nen in the world. Nen is the life aura all living beings have, and Nen practitioners can use it to do a wide variety of things, including increasing their physical abilities and senses to seemingly superhuman levels, strengthening or weakening objects, or even hiding themselves supernaturally.
  • Master practitioners of Nen are able to manifest it into their specialty using Hatsu. While the specific classification of Netero's Hatsu is unknown, the form it takes is a massive, multi-armed religious construct named Hyakushiki Kannon (100-Type Guanyin Bodhisattva) that he controls in combat.
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#9 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

DnD characters don't have to maintain spells. Once they are errected they remain in affect for the duration of the spell. The flame shield he puts up had no clear duration put on it. It lasted for several chapters before he put up an anti-magic bubble that cancelled the affect. Having 50 spells up is about as mentally tasking as having 0 spells up, unless it's a complicated illusion, or a non-homing spell that the caster has to actively move himself.

Gaze Screen according to the wiki would last 10 minutes per level. However, that's a game mechanic, much like levels. But I would say an experience caster's should easily last over an hour, as several of Gromph's minor protections that were put up minor to his fight with the lich king lasted up and through his entire fight with the lich, even after being BFR'd for quite awhile.

Also, most spells only take a few seconds to cast. Only a couple spells throughout that entire book series took more than that period of time.

And yes, he's a dnd mage, but don't worry, I'm relying almost exclusively on book feats. I won't pull any of the feats people claim any DnD mage can do using stupid game mechanics that have no basis in any of the real books.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#10 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't mind him having abilities that he would have purely for being a high level dnd mage, and I know that you don't have to maintain spells as a dnd mage, just that there's usually a finite number of casts of any particular spell, and a global limit to spells in a day and whatnot, that's what I was mainly asking. I know it'd be trivial for him to use the prep to make sure he has 4 casts of flame shield and, as you say, an hour or so should be about what's needed for a fight.

How do you quantify Flame Shield's durability increase? I've read your scans of it and it apparently deflected/muted some magic fire and harmed others (As fire is oft to do) upon physical contact but I have no idea the scale or range of things it increases durability on. I also see the shield Gromph used against the lightning, it seems like it deflected one hit and then he had to cast other defenses, all of this while explicitly stating the drain it was taking on his staff -- does it work like it blocks one shot from anything then fades away, like I think it does? I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for Gromph's spells because he is by far the most hard to quantify character here.

I don't mean to take up the entire debate with my onesided questions, if you have any questions about my characters abilities or limits feel free to ask.

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#11 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

I don't mind him having abilities that he would have purely for being a high level dnd mage, and I know that you don't have to maintain spells as a dnd mage, just that there's usually a finite number of casts of any particular spell, and a global limit to spells in a day and whatnot, that's what I was mainly asking. I know it'd be trivial for him to use the prep to make sure he has 4 casts of flame shield and, as you say, an hour or so should be about what's needed for a fight.

How do you quantify Flame Shield's durability increase? I've read your scans of it and it apparently deflected/muted some magic fire and harmed others (As fire is oft to do) upon physical contact but I have no idea the scale or range of things it increases durability on. I also see the shield Gromph used against the lightning, it seems like it deflected one hit and then he had to cast other defenses, all of this while explicitly stating the drain it was taking on his staff -- does it work like it blocks one shot from anything then fades away, like I think it does? I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for Gromph's spells because he is by far the most hard to quantify character here.

I don't mean to take up the entire debate with my onesided questions, if you have any questions about my characters abilities or limits feel free to ask.

In his fight with the Lich he casts Fire Shield 4 times without stopping to memorize. Once before he gets BFR'd, once after (as the Lich removes his magic buffs to BFR him), once on the halfling, and once after the anti-magic bubble. His Globe of Invulnerability is something his staff does by merely speaking the command word, so that's nothing to worry about.

Nimor is a half-dragon who was capable of cutting through platemail with his attacks. So it's reasonable to assume the Fire Shield offers enough defense to negate any attack of that level or lower, I will not assume it to be any higher than that.

And no, the Globe doesn't just fade away after one shot, the magic defense he conjures on himself after the bolt of lightning fails is the flame shield. It was cancelled in the scan before it when he put up an Anti-Magic bubble around himself. The Globe of Invulnerability does drain his staff from what I can tell, a normal Globe would only last a minute or two, but his doesn't ever really drop unless cancelled or unless he releases it. I think it only taxes his staff when it's hit, because he has that thing up for the majority of the fight, and it gets dispelled before it ever really drops. However, it's a good thing you brought up these questions, because I was reading through my scans, and though it's not specifically stated, I have noticed that it doesn't seem to block physical attacks (I can provide instances of physical attacks not working if you'd like). Which means it's only effective against elemental, magic, psionic, and metaphysical attacks, not straight physical attacks.

The staff holds a certain amount of power, but the amount of power it holds is extraordinary. He fights against two opponents simultaneously for several chapters, and though he claims he's concerned about the strain and power being drawn from his staff, it never runs out of energy. In fact, he breaks the staff (on purpose, it doesn't merely break, the thing is nigh indestructibe) towards the end, and the energy left within it was enough to break through all his magic defenses and scorch him near to death...as well as incinerate the lich and wipe out a portion of the Bazaar he was fighting in....

As for your questions, feel free to ask. I am more than willing to provide as many explanations as you want, and scans if needed. I don't expect you to just blindly make arguments against something you're unsure of, in a proper debate we should both be free to question each other's characters, feats, and statements.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#12 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Excellent, aside from my question directed at cadence for how Psy Shield may interact with his shields, that answers almost everything I could think of when it came to your Gromph scans. One last bit: Does his ring of regeneration work if you, say, cut off or removed his hand?

After that I'll move on to Maka as I have not read Soul Eater. Multiple times you specifically stated that her anti-demon wave prevents offensive telepathic attacks (though I'm kind of sketchy on that because the word "soul" is used instead of telepathy or brain or mind or whatever, I'll run with it as that seemed to be on of your main intents on picking her in a telepathy allowed tourney), would that prevent basic mind reading that Gorgon has? Gorgon does not assault your mind in any way, just accesses all the information in it.

Would you say Rei's flame attacks qualify as magical in nature? I thought they were just really hot flames until I read the whole "Mind body and soul" burning explanation and some of the more esoteric effects of his ability.

I was hoping you had some questions so we could have a little rapport, the fact that you don't makes me kind of worried. :P

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#13 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

Excellent, aside from my question directed at cadence for how Psy Shield may interact with his shields, that answers almost everything I could think of when it came to your Gromph scans. One last bit: Does his ring of regeneration work if you, say, cut off or removed his hand?

After that I'll move on to Maka as I have not read Soul Eater. Multiple times you specifically stated that her anti-demon wave prevents offensive telepathic attacks (though I'm kind of sketchy on that because the word "soul" is used instead of telepathy or brain or mind or whatever, I'll run with it as that seemed to be on of your main intents on picking her in a telepathy allowed tourney), would that prevent basic mind reading that Gorgon has? Gorgon does not assault your mind in any way, just accesses all the information in it.

Would you say Rei's flame attacks qualify as magical in nature? I thought they were just really hot flames until I read the whole "Mind body and soul" burning explanation and some of the more esoteric effects of his ability.

I was hoping you had some questions so we could have a little rapport, the fact that you don't makes me kind of worried. :P

Arachne is a character who was using her Soul to affect the minds of all enemies within the radius of her castle, it was clearly a telepathic attack. Additionally, that black dress of hers makes her immune to all forms of slashing/piercing (at least where it covers), HOWEVER, it does not protect against blunt force, and a strong enough slashing attack will still hurt her in the same manner as a punch, it would only dampen the affect and negate the slashing damage.

Black Blood

Now these instances I am providing will be of Black Blood while it was coursing through somebodies veins, not warn as a garment. Even Maka in these scans is affected by Black Blood. The only thing I'm showing, is that piercing/slashing attacks clearly are halted once they come in contact with a character's veins, that is, the Black Blood. Regardless of how strong they are.

Black Blood vs. Slashing/Piercing

This characters has black blood coursing through his body, so she can still pierce his skin, but she can't get any deeper than that

Fighting him Later

The huge crescent moon she's wielding (it's a special attack of hers) is cutting and slashing through concrete like it's nothing, but again, can't even put a scratch on him (well technically it can scratch him, but it can't go any deeper)

However, as you can see, it doesn't stop motion completely, it's just immune to slashing/piercing

It wouldn't prevent basic mind reading, only any form of assault or mind altering affect.

They aren't magical, but they are metaphysical. They would actually be more accurate quantified as Astral (soul/mind), and Physical. HOWEVER, they are clearly physical (as they burn metals, clothes, and have been used exclusive for physical attacks against inanimate objects) as well as metaphysical, they affect on BOTH levels, not just one or the other. I picked him for a lot of reasons, and I'll elaborate more on his plethora of abilities later. His ability actually comes from something like an X-Men mutation.

You haven't provided any scans or feats yet for me to question your characters, and I'm not overly worried because if I win I win, if I lose I lose. :)

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#14 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I was gonna start posting things once I picked my perks, and my decision on the perks is going to be greatly affected by whether or not Rei Ogami's fire and Maka's Soul count as magic for the magic psy shield perk -- since that would be 4 members on your team who are fairly reliant on, or in Cloud's case just actively use, magical abilities. I'll have to wait on Cadence for that one. Cadence has already ruled stuff that wasn't exactly psychic or magic was stopped by the shields in my last match by saying all of Liara's biotics except her shield were stopped by the perk, so it has to come down to his interpretation of Maka and Rei's powers (there's obviously no argument about Cloud's Materia or Gromph's gromphiness).

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#15 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

I was gonna start posting things once I picked my perks, and my decision on the perks is going to be greatly affected by whether or not Rei Ogami's fire and Maka's Soul count as magic for the magic psy shield perk -- since that would be 4 members on your team who are fairly reliant on, or in Cloud's case just actively use, magical abilities. I'll have to wait on Cadence for that one.

Magic would only shield against magic, not elemental attacks. Though conjured by magical means, the lightning, fire, and other things Gromph and Cloud conjure are very much physical or elemental in nature, they are not magical.

However, Gromph can't do things like Finger of Death, Vampiric Touch, Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, and a whole host of magical spells against your character. In fact, he's got a lot of nasty spells that fall in the psychic, status changing, and magic changing category, so I probably lose a good portion of his abilities here.

A few of Maka's attacks are magical in nature. Her soul wavelength is not magical, however, her special attacks (Witch Hunter to a degree, Majin Hunter to a degree) are magical in nature, as are some of Soul's magical attacks. Most of her attacks are Astral or Physical, but some of them carry a special magical affect that works beyond the physical which your team should be immune to.

Ogami's you'll have to get a ruling on, I could imagine that a psychic shield could potentially protect against the non-physical portions of his attack, and I wouldn't argue if Cadence stated one way or the other, we'll have to wait for him to officially rule on that. Plus you have to choose which character's get the magic shield.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#16 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure magical fire is still magical. For instance, Liara's biotics create physical force, but Cadence ruled that it wouldn't work on someone with the shield in my last fight. I don't see why magically created fire would be any different given his past rulings.

I already know which of my characters would get the perk if it works against the abilities. If it doesn't I'll just toss the venom perk on them, lol.

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#17 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

I'm pretty sure magical fire is still magical. For instance, Liara's biotics create physical force, but Cadence ruled that it wouldn't work on someone with the shield in my last fight. I don't see why magically created fire would be any different given his past rulings.

I already know which of my characters would get the perk if it works against the abilities. If it doesn't I'll just toss the venom perk on them, lol.

Magical Fire is not magical if it's not magical in nature :P

If a mutant throws out fire attacks, does it still affect someone who is immune to bio-attacks? The fire is produced from a living organism, but the fire itself is just that, fire. It has heat, produced concussive force (depending on the wielder) and doesn't function off of bio-energy or anything. If someone is immune to technological assault, does that make them immune to a rocket launcher? Again, it's still concussive force, heat, and isn't produced via technological means, it's still just fire.

As for Liara, I would rule that a telekinetic attack, that is, an attack fueled by her mind used to lift or assault someone head on shouldn't be allowed. However, if you were to use it to throw an object at someone, or produce extreme winds or something other than a "force-push" esque attack, that sort of falls under the psychic attacks.

That being said, if she were to throw a singularity out, it doesn't matter if that singularity was produced via psychic attack or not, it's still a singularity, and it still has it's affects on gravity and the environment and etc. She creates the real thing, I don't see why being immune to psychic assaults would shield you from that, it's clearly a physical attack.

The same is said about throwing out a ball of exploding fire. Once it's conjured, there is nothing magical about it, it's the same as a physical attack and it produced all physical affects that are not magical in nature.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#18 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree to some extent, but I just went along with Cadence's ruling on Liara's biotics IE none of her powers were gonna work on Samurai Jack, who had the perk in my previous battle.

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#19 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

I agree to some extent, but I just went along with Cadence's ruling on Liara's biotics IE none of her powers were gonna work on Samurai Jack, who had the perk in my previous battle.

I just find that ridiculous. A singularity is a singularity. Regardless of it's source once it exists it exists. If I were to have a character conjure a dragon (which I can't do, so don't worry, that's not coming into play as a surprise attack!), would someone who's immune to magic be immune to anything that dragon put out?

It's the same thing, once it exists it exists, regardless of the source of it's creation. I would say you had a bad ruling, but I won't argue with Cadence regardless of what he states.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#20 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, we got the Cadence rulings via PM:

Okay. Here is my official Ruling. If any attack is Conjured by Magic it will be blocked by the Shield. If any attack like Soul Realted is also Blocked. Liaras attacks are blocked even tho they are not technically Psychic at all (Biotics abilities are base on the nervouse system and body movements, not the mind) and the Force (again not really Psychic at all) are also affected.
The whole point of the Magic Psy Shield is to protect ya from Magic Character attacks. Magic is far superior and break laws of physics out right. Same with Conjuring Fire Balls out of nothing.
However if you set a Tree on Fire then the continuing Fire from that would be normal fire. However pulling a fire from nothing is a attack that will be blocked by Magic Psy Shield. Basically it is for anti Magic/Psykers and Human Torch would be fine to use such Fire out of nothing attacks cause he is not doing it by magic.
Again the whole point of it is to make it hard on people who chose the more OP Magic / Psyker Characters.

And about flame shield vs psy shield perk:

Its Defensive. So if the Fire Shield Burns you and acts as a forcefield. Then the Protection part of the Flame Shield will still work, it is not attacking you, the burning you part will not work as it is attacking you.

With that, I believe I'll take the Magic/Psy Shield perk for Isaac Netero and the The Venom, Banshee, and Red Eye Drug on Alita

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#21 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, time for me to do a skill/plan/gear dump to counter your crazy post. Hopefully I don't embarrass myself trying to emulate you, lol.

Prep/Plan: My main plan is for Alita to secure a perimeter and to create a trap and info field using her drones and high travel speed thanks to her Mobile Unit (I'll get into the fullness of these effects in the rundown). Using Gabriel's eye in the sky (which comes equipped with Thermal and Vision sensors, so your entire team being covered in fire should stand out like a sore thumb), it should be pretty easy for Alita to avoid any interception by your team while she goes about setting up her trap field if your team tries to blitz her.

I think this plan should be very easy to implement, as you yourself have stated you're starting the fight off by having Gromph cast a multitude of buffs on your team before they head out, giving Alita a pretty solid headstart and since I'm not exactly blitzing to the mid way point (I'll have the map editted with setup to show you the gist of it) there shouldn't be too much in the way of resistance. The rest of my team is there to follow up as quickly as possible (I could even have Netero piggyback with her on the bike, it's held more than one person at a time before) and provide support and enact the rest of my plan.

After setting up the perimeter, my team's basic goal is to force you to try to engage us while I combo Liara's crazy bucketlist of biotic powers and Alita's equally crazy drone numbers to try to find an exploitable member of your team. Singularity, Stasis, Throw, Pull and Lift should all be very effective at forcing your members into defenseless positions for the drones to barrage them with high power explosions and plasma (there are also anti electronic drones but I don't think anyone on your team is tech based. Two battles in a row where I can't use this ability lol). Alita also has grenades to add to the arsenal, which should be pretty useful if Mass effect Biotics + Grenade combos are anything to go by.

Gorgon and Netero are set up to defend my ranged zoning. Netero will use En to secure a 50meter perimeter around my team while Gorgon will use his telepathy to scan and acquire the plan/goals of your members if they get near enough (I'm not exactly sure the range on his telepathy/empathy, he's used it across huge battlefield situations so it should have a 20+ meter range), allowing my team to react quickly and effectively to any blitzes or trickery and defend my less capable melee combatant (Liara, not Alita, Alita owns bones at melee fighting). Should anyone get into threatening territory of Liara, Netero and Gorgon will intercept while Liara backs off while firing biotic powers to leave the intercepted at a disadvantage or, should she be under direct attack, focusing her powers on fortifying her shields and separating. I think the latter is very unlikely, as I'd be skeptical if anyone could get past Gorgon and especially Netero without a serious fight.

Now to get on to what my team's capable of using this plan. I'll start with Alita, considering my plan starts with her perimeter setup:

Alita

Drones:

Aside from being an amazing fighter, the main utility Alita brings to my team is here vast array of unmanned combat/utility drones. Here's basically the vast number of drones Alita has as a TUNED: Arachnos, Missile Bees, Fireflies, Laser Bugs and Lice Probes, along with her low orbit satellite known as Gabriel which provides aerial scouting and supply drops (also has a high powered laser but that's unfair for this fight)

Arachnos: Small, spiderlike drones capable of laying intricate traps and scouting(remote commands). Alita comes equipped with dozens of them on her person and hundreds in her Mobile Unit's supply. Their explosions are large and powerful, similar to a large block of C4, as seen here:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Missile Bees: At the end of the second picture, you see the missile bees deploy. They're effectively flying version of the arachnos, but more numerous, more rapid to deploy, but with less powerful explosions -- only capable of dismemberment of armored cyborgs, so about rpg level. The high numbers make up for that weakness though:

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Fireflies: Similar to missile bees in that they're flying drones with scouting capabilities, but instead of high numbers of explosions, they burn away with around a 5m spherical ball of plasma and also disable electronic devices. They also give a sort of baseline that the tech in Alita's world is capable of surviving burning hot plasma for five consecutive seconds:

Probe Lice: Ground dwelling probes capable of sniffing out traps and relaying threat information with marks on Alita's visual sensors:

Laser Bugs: Probably the less important combat drones for this fight. Capable of electronic disruption, have same sensors and scouting other drones have, but the only special perk is that they allow Alita contact with Gabriel and GIS in weird situations like being underground. They prevent hacking as well, but none of your team hacks so welp. Mostly just more scouting drones that won't blow themselves up:

Mobile Unit: It's her bike. Capable of incredibly high speeds, it is also able to act and move independently should Alita have to get off of it and has all the typical sensors and communication abilities listed thus far. The rear case has a giant mounted gun and storage facility for ammo and drone supplies. The gun is disabled/removed for the tournament as it would be waaaay too powerful

Gabriel Support System: Gabriel's an unmanned low orbit satellite with high tech scouting equipment. It provides supply drops (mostly just ammo and drone resupplies for Mobile Unit) and has a high powered laser which is also disabled for the tournament(shooting dudes from orbit, also not fair). Primarily a very useful eye in the sky to keep tabs on your team:

That accounts for all of Alita's unmanned drones she has as a TUNED, though her gear also includes high power guns, molecularly sharp diamond wire, and a Damascus sword made out of special steel alloy renowned for being incredibly durable (tanked high pressure water meant for cutting through steel and plasma without being noticeably damaged).

She has a semi automatic pistol with a very high ammo load out, and a similarly high load out automatic rifle. They are, as you'd expect, high power version of standard armaments, capable of stuff like this:

Finally, the Monomolecular Diamond Wire. She shoots it from her fingers. She can use it to spiderman around and it has the tensile strength of 2.4 tons. It's also, as the name implies, molecularly sharp and can be used slice through basically anything less hard than, well, diamond. Being so thin, it is practically invisible, being only a few atoms thick (don't mind the pair making a cradle out of it, Alita isn't that showy nor silly, they're copies of her TUNED body and I'm just demonstrating its sharpness):

Melee Combat

If you read my last battle you'll be able to recount that Altia has multiple supersonic combat feats, and bullet dodging/deflecting feats, as well as absurd strength, capable of throwing multi ton chunks of concrete effortlessly with one arm or destroying large boulders or annihilating giant cyborgs with single hits (and also tanking blows that strong from a copy of herself). Her stats are pretty unquestionably top tier, but I never got the opportunity to go into her melee style.

Alita is the master of the Panzer Kunst, a fighting style that uses vibrations and momentum to increase offensive and defensive power. The main reason I picked Alita for this tournament besides her drones is that she is perfectly suited to deal with wolverine level regenerators and armored oppnents using the Hertza Haeon -- effectively, if she strikes an opponent, she sends a vibrational wave at a frequency through their body causing all of their internal organs, most importantly their brain, to liquefy and explode. Panzer Kunst has several more moves, but this is the most important. Demonstration:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Combine that with her chi, which is effectively long range combat precognition and senses (only countered in the series by superior chi), and you've got a combatant who automatically finds the best opportunity to strike, and whose strikes cause organ explosions. First picture is an early series description of what Chi is, second is her after having unlocked her Chi to its fullest in her TUNED body:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

She's potentially my most lethal melee fighter given her combination of special martial arts, combat precognition and superb stats. Combined with the Venom Perk and her...willingness to sacrifice body parts to score a victory (I can post several situations of this if you like, alita has gotten through quite a few fights by sacrificing her body to get a killing blow in because of what her Chi told her), she's a pretty nasty combatant to face head on if you can get past he drone perimeter and Liara's biotics.

Alright, until I go through last order for more panzer kunst moves and chi stuff, I'll settle on this for what Alita brings to my team. Next up is Liara.

Liara

Biotics

Taken from the Mass Effect Wiki(if you want I could go load up the games but I hope this suffices):

  • Throw: Throw is mostly used in combat to keep opponents at a distance, by either launching them away or knocking them over, rendering them helpless when they land. In certain areas Throw will knock enemies off ledges so they fall to their death. If used near destructible objects, Throw can break them and hit enemies with debris. Any moveable boxes can also be Thrown into them, injuring them further because their shields cannot absorb the damage.
  • Lift: Using Lift will cause enemies to float helplessly in the air, making them more vulnerable to attack. Momentum is also conserved; for example, using Lift on a charging enemy will cause them to go flying over your head, possibly into a wall or off a cliff. It can also bring enemies out from behind cover to give a clear shot. Lift is particularly effective when used on a stationary enemy in conjunction with Throw. Once the enemy is midair, using Throw can fling the enemy a much greater distance than usual because they will not be knocked back into scenery, and may even result in an instant kill if they are knocked far enough
  • Warp: The power spawns a mass effect field that damages enemy targets and stops health regeneration(I am not sure if this completely counters the Wolverine Regen or the Magic Regen your characters have, it does howerever completely stop Krogan super regen and usage of medi gel, so unless Cadence rules against it I will treat it as a counter to regen). It deals double damage to barriers and armor and will detonate any biotic powers affecting the target, such as Pull or Singularity. The detonated target takes double damage from Warp, and all targets within the Detonation Radius receive full damage, regardless of any protection they might have. If they are also being affected by a biotic power, then they also take double damage.
  • Singularity: The power launches a dark energy sphere to create an intense mass effect field. The field creates a warp in the space around it, creating a gravity well akin to a black hole. Enemies are drawn into the Singularity and held briefly helpless in orbit while protected enemies are held in place. The singularity will drain any shields, armor, or biotic barriers of enemies over time. Unlike singularity in Mass Effect, any enemy wandering into the gravity well of a singularity after it has been created will also be pulled into orbit. Capable of homing in on targets after firing.
  • Barrier: Barrier spawns a mass effect field that soaks up huge amounts of damage.
  • Stasis: Stasis will temporarily immobilize an enemy on the battlefield, but they will be immune to any damage while under its effects. Once Stasis wears off, the enemy will fall to the ground briefly, where they will receive bonus damage (x3-x4) until they get up, at which point only normal damage is received. Targets will build up immunity to Stasis if it is used repeatedly on them in a short period— this prevents a single enemy from being incapacitated indefinitely. Stasis is unique among powers in that it will work despite any defensive layers that an enemy has, with the drawback of not directly dealing damage.
  • Warp Ammo: Blast vulnerable opponents already lifted by biotics for a damage bonus, and weaken the armor of grounded targets. More weapon damage. More damage to barriers and armor. Squad Bonus: Squadmates gain Warp Ammo at 50% effectiveness(should only apply to Alita's guns).

Equipment

Geth Plasma Submachine Gun:

This geth weapon works on the same principles as the Spitfire: it shoots superconducting toroids that break apart on impact, retaining an electrical charge that flash-converts the shrapnel into plasma. Unlike the Spitfire, however, the plasma SMG has been modified to take thermal clips. Holding down the trigger speeds up its rate of fire, rapidly depleting the gun’s heat sink in exchange for nearly continuous fire. Upgraded version has 180 shots per clip and 6 spare clips.

M-6 Carnifex

Highly accurate and lethal sidearm. Effective against armor; weak against shields and biotic barriers.

Shadow Broker Armor

Highly durable armor, capable of defending the wearer from heavy weapons fire and plasma weaponry. Comes equipped with powerful personal shields and medi-gel to repair extensive wounds.

Miscellaneous Abilities

Liara is capable of using her biotics to create forcefields or to expand her barrier in a large area to defend herself and others:

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Liara is capable of greatly increasing her speed using her Biotics, as seen here when she dodges automatic fire at point blank range:

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Liara is capable of greatly increasing her strength using Biotics, similar to telekinetics using there power to increase striking ability:

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Liara has incredibly fine telekinetic control with her biotics, capable of taking a piece of scrap and propelling it powerfully enough to kill a Cerberus assassin (These mofos are incredibly durable and casual bullet timers):

Isaac Netero

I've already stated and shown in my previous debate that Isaac is fast enough to respond to a hypersonic+ enemy in my previous thread, I don't think his stats and reaction time are really questionable from my previous rundown and debate. I'll detail his fight with said opponent when I detail his Hatsu. Aside from being incredibly fast and strong naturally, Netero is considered the greatest practitioner of Nen in Hunter x Hunter, giving him mastery over these techniques:

Nen

It is a technique that allows a living being to use and manipulate their own life energy (known as aura). There are several categories of Nen use.

  • Ten: Ten (纏, Envelop; Shroud) is the process of keeping the nodes open, but also having aura flow through and around the body rather than away from it. Once maintained, it creates a shroud around the user that feels similar to standing in lukewarm, viscous fluid. Having a shroud of aura surround the body is the most basic defense against the emotional attacks from others, however, it can't defend against physical attacks.
  • Zetsu: Zetsu (絕, Suppress; Null) stops the flow of aura from their body altogether. By closing all of their aura nodes, the user is able to stop almost all outflow of their aura like water from a valve. Since the user is no longer surrounded by their own aura, they are more sensitive to the aura of others. This can be useful when tracking another person and it will also prevent other users of Nen from noticing them. Zetsu can also be used to relieve fatigue, since it forces the body's external layer of aura to be fully contained within.
  • Ren: Ren (練, Refine; Enhance) is a direct application of Ten. Since a user is capable of keeping aura from leaking away from the body, it's also possible for them to produce more aura around themselves without having to worry about losing it. Ren focuses on outputting a high amount of aura and keeping it on the body, expanding the size and intensity of it. If Ten is considered to be purely defensive, then Ren typically what is used for offense. This increases the user's physical strength and durability and provides a large pool of aura for any advanced techniques or individual skills they decide to use.
  • Shu: Shu (周 Enfold) is an advanced application of Ten. Shu allows a user of Nen to extend their aura's envelopment onto an object, allowing them to use that object as if it were an extension of their own body. For example, one could use Shu to extend their Ten around an object, which would strengthen and protect the object like the way Ren strengthens and protects their body. This is the technique that allows Hisoka to make his solitaire cards as sharp and as hard as metal knives.
  • Gyo: Gyo (凝 Focus) is an advanced application of Ren by which a Nen-user concentrates a larger than normal portion of their aura into one specific body part. Gyo increases the strength of that one body part, but leaves the rest of the body more vulnerable. Gyo is most often used in the eyes, allowing a Nen-user to see aura and things which would otherwise be hidden.
  • In:In (隱 Conceal) is an advanced form of Zetsu used to almost completely conceal the presence of a Nen-user's aura. In is used on a Nen-user's Hatsu ability to make it invisible to other Nen-users. In can be countered by using Gyo in the eyes or through En.
  • En: En (圓 Circle) is an advanced application of Ren and Ten. In Ren, aura usually envelops only a small amount of space around the user's body. En is when one extends their Ren so that their aura extends further than normal, then uses Ten at the same time to give shape to the aura, usually a sphere. Someone using En can feel the shape and movement of anything entering their circle. Those who master En are typically able to extend their En to a sphere of a 50m radius(this is the level of which I'll cap Netero, as he doesn't actively use En before his fight, but is a master of all Nen techniques. I won't bring him up to the level of outliers like Zeno Zoldyck or Neferpitou who can extend their En from 300meters to even 2 miles).
  • Ren: Ryu (流 Flow) is the term for real-time use of Gyo (the adjustment of aura concentration in various body parts) by a Nen-user in battle. For example, the use of Gyo to increase the amount of Nen in a fist as one strikes with it, to increase damage done; or to increase the amount of Nen in an arm as it is used to block a blow, for extra defense
  • Ken:Ken (堅 Fortify) is the advanced version of the basic Rentechnique. Ken is a defensive technique where a Nen-user maintains a state of Ren over their entire body, allowing them to defend against attacks from any direction without the need to use Gyo. Ken is as useful as a defensive position, but is tiring to maintain. Additionally, it is not as strong as Gyo on any given part of the body, since it protects the whole body evenly. Because of that, it is used to guard when one wants to be cautious(the base line for Ken masters is to tank an RPG to the face without being affected and for bullets to fall harmlessly off their skin. While Netero should be stronger than this, I can't know by how much, so I'll assume that is his level of Ken usage).
  • Ko: Ko (硬 Temper) is an enhanced version of Gyo in which all of an individual's aura is concentrated into one particular body part. Zetsu is used to completely stop the flow of Nen in all other parts of the body. This makes that one body part exceptionally powerful, but leaves the rest of the body completely unprotected. This is used by some Nen-users as an offensive technique (a Ko-punch would carry all 100% of your aura with it), but it is a risky move — leaving the rest of one's body unprotected in a fight against another Nen-user is generally not a good idea. Kou results in one's aura creating a high-pitched dissonance, somewhat akin to the sound of metal being ground(Netero has no reason to use Ko, as will be apparent when I show his Hatsu).

Hatsu

Hatsu (發, Release; Act) is the release or transmission of one's aura so it can be projected to carry out a certain function. In essence, Hatsu is one's personal expression of Nen that creates a special and unique ability (colloquially called a Nen Ability). A good Hatsu should reflect a person's own character; one can never truly master Nen if they only copy other people's abilities. Isaac Netero's Hatsu is known as 100-Type Guanyin Bodhisattva (Hyakushiki Kannon). It is a massive construct, towering nearly 25 meters.

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Isaac summons it by using a prayer motion with his hands. While presumably a weakness, he does it so fast that a hypersonic+ opponent like Mereum (pictured above) could not keep up with it (the prayer motion, not the Hyakushiki Kannon itself). One strike is capable of leaving a fairly large crater in solid rock, but he is capable of thousands in quick succession.

The Kyuu Jyuu Kyuu no Te

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Having detailed Isaac's offensive power, this is just what he's capable of should he be attacking. As I said in my plan, his primary role on my team is defensive engagement. Getting past Isaac's defenses is mind bogglingly hard because he is capable of creating thousands of arms with nearly unlimited stances to defend himself(as well as using En to sniff out any stealth attacks). A little preface for this -- Isaac Netero, in these upcoming scans, is against Meryem, the Chimera Ant King. Meruem is greatly hypersonic+, and astronomically faster and stronger than Netero himself is. Through a combination of years of training and mastery in his skill and an unmatched reaction time, Isaac uses the incredibly complex defensive capabilites of his multiple hand construct to defend against this opponent who would otherwise instantly kill him with his absurd stats and intelligence:

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Mereum explains the defense Isaac puts out, pointing out the near limitless combination Hyakushiki Kannon provides:

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And later overcomes his defenses after suffering literally hundreds of thousands(yeah that is plural, lol) of blows to strike a crippling blow (I'd be skeptical if anyone could repeat this feat in this tourney, as Mereum has survived a point blank nuke to the face, and was only killed by degenerative poison):

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Isaac's defensive capabilities and complete dominance over melee opponents is why I gave him the Magic Shield perk, as there's probably some magical abilities you could use to completely circumvent the defenses his Ken and Hatsu can put up. Normally I'd take the Venom perk for this, but I'm unaware of the complete magical capabilities of your team, so I figured I'd better go for the safer option and ditch the regen and reaction speed/movement speed increases.

Gorgon

Stats

Gorgon is fast. Real damn fast. Capable of deflecting automatic fire from multiple targets with such procession that he hits those firing at him, capable of blitzing Wolverine on multiple ocassions, and slicing three bullets at the same time with one swing:

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If you think anyone here is too fast for him, well, he's sliced up Yo-Yo/Slingshot, a blitzing speedster, and they even comment on how he shouldn't be so fast:

Nick Fury's info outright states he has superhuman strength and speed, as well, and his databook power grid also confirms:

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Mutant Powers

Gorgon has both high strength telepathy (only information gathering, has never attacked someone with telepathy) and Wolverine level regen, demonstrated in his fight with Wolverine and Elektra:

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Gorgon's more infamous ability is his stone stare. Anyone who looks at his eyes is instantly turned to stone. Note, he doesn't have to stare back, and wearing eye protection does not help resist it, as seen here vs Phobos:

Also of note there is that Phobos' fear gaze does not work on him, which is a pretty high showing for mental resistance. Not sure if that's a mutant power or not but it might be relevant.

Small question: You said Gromph can give your team a buff called Gaze Screen, what are the particulars of it? Does it make them completely immune to gaze attacks, resistant, lowers the chances, or something else?

Anyhow, I said I'd provide a map of how I'm setting up my team's entrechment, so here it is:

No Caption Provided

The white arrow is just the direct path my team takes. The black circle indicates where my team is entrenched(I believe that is a large building which should make a great sniper position and defensive position), and I'm estimating Netero's En range to be about that large, but it could be smaller, I don't know quite the scale we're working with here The basic idea is Netero will act on anyone who breaks the perimeter of the building, and Gorgon will follow suit. Liara's job is to spam biotics at anyone who gets close. Alita is an absurdly great marksman with high powerered high range rifle (power also increased by Liara's Warp Ammo ability), and will be effectively sniping people her scout drones or Gabriel finds when they come into range (her pistol has nailed guys several hundred meters away with absolutely no accuracy issues, so that's a pretty high range). The blue lines and filled in area indicates where Alita is concentrating her scouting only drones, such as the laser bugs and probe lice. The red area is basically the trapped area Alita has, filled with Arachnos, Fireflies and Missile Bees waiting to pounce. Securing a high ground position should also make it easy for Gabriel to give Alita supply drops, giving her a very high potential ammo and drone count.

A major advantage the map gives me: all of Alita's drones are small and insect like, and I imagine there's a lot of insect like things in this park/forest area. It should be quite hard for your team to weed out all of her scouting drones.

Edit: Upon reread, I forgot to mention a power that Netero has and I'm not sure how fair it is, as I wasn't thinking about it when I entered Netero in this tourney. Via use of In, Netero is capable of making his Hatsu (the giant statue) invisible to his opponent unless they are using Gyo, as seen here when he first uses it against Neferpitou, who drops her Gyo to go completely on offense:

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This is obviously a little unfair as Gyo is a HxH universe power only. I guess if your characters have their universe's version of enhanced vision that should allow them to see it, if that's a fair concession?

Avatar image for floopay
#22 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

Gromph himself should be immune to the stare because of the Skull Sapphire, but officially Gaze Screen sets up a mirror like effect in front of the recipients eyes, giving them a 50% resistance to all gaze attacks.

As for Gorgon, he's in great danger attempting to use his Gaze attack against Cloud. The Fushion Sword is incredibly reflective, and as already proven against Wolverine, catching his own reflection can prove fatal.

Maka Albarn

Because of the psychic link in my team, she can call out wherever your characters are at any given time, they have no means of hiding from her. Why? Because she can perceive souls from any distance (well, nearly any distance). Quick research shows that Alita is, in fact, a living organism with robotics built into her, so she she should also possess a soul.

Soul Perception

Maka is halfway across the planet, and she can weed out a single soul of someone she is looking for

Senses a soul wavelength all the way on the Moon (which isn't outside the Earth's atmosphere, like the real moon, just an FYI)

Cloud Strife

Cloud rides this bike:

This is an exact copy and paste of it's official statistics

Fenrir

StatisticsEdit

Some of the Fenrir's technical specs include:

  • Top speed of 400 kmph (approximately 250 mph).
  • Has an oval-piston twin cylinder engine and has two front wheels.
  • Fenrir seems to have a hip-based turning system, as even though it has handle bars, Cloud is capable of maneuvering the bike even while wielding two swords at once.
  • It also appears to utilize a non-returning throttle, a dual throttle system or (the most likely solution) both, as Fenrir seems capable of both maintaining its speed and accelerating when Cloud's right hand is busy wielding his sword. It is also possible the throttle is controlled by foot.
  • Possesses internal storage compartments on either side of the front axle where Cloud stores the individual blades of the Fusion Swords.

Repost of earlier showings:

For proof of the reflectiveness of the Fushion Swords, and his bike skills, I am reposting these videos.

Cloud vs. Loz and Yazoo round 2

Again, Cloud is affected by Geostigma here, so far from full strength

0:00-0:15 - Cloud dodges and deflects attacks from Yazoo (guy shooting gun), while dodging and blocking Loz (fist guy)

0:25-0:40 - Blade Beam

0:41-0:50 - Fights Loz and Yazoo spamming haste like no other

0:51-1:15 - Cloud deflects, dodges, and handles Loz and Yazoo simultaneously by himself

1:16-End - Kadaj fights Cloud and seems to have the upper hand.

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Cloud vs. Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz

Again, Cloud is affected by Geostigma and it causes him extreme pain, so not fighting to the best of his abilities.

0:50-1:12 - Not only a good showing of reflexes and ability, but excellent motorcycle skills

1:15-1:21 - Dodging and dealing with Loz

1:35-1:40 - Good showing of his motorcycles durability, and his driving as well.

3:40-4:05 - Look at him handle these guys, pretty effortlessly to.

4:05-5:10 - Fast dodging, cuts a motorcycles in half, makes a fool out of these two, pretty handily too.

6:08-End - Cloud and Kadaj go toe to toe. Amazing showing of strength, speed, motorcycle skills, and how fast that thing can go.

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NEW POST:

Cloud vs. Kadaj last fight pt 1

3:30-3:41 - Cloud Dodges a lightning bolt, still affected by Geostigma. This lighting shatters the concrete floor with no issue.

4:00-4:30 - Cloud is cured of Geostigma

5:30-5:35- Cloud dodges lightning bolts again, after they are fired,

5:35-6:00 - Cloud is more than just matching Kadaj now, he's vastly overpowering him.

6:11-6:20 - Cloud throws Kadaj quite a ways with his attack

6:54-7:00 - Cloud attack Kadaj, and gets disarmed

7:15-7:25 - Continues kicking the crap out of Kadaj after retrieving his weapon

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Gromph Baenre

Gromph can also trap a portion of your team, probably Gorgon tbh, inside an invisible wall of force, he does this to prevent a cloud of poisonous gas from escaping, but it's nigh indestructible, and has held off entire squadrons of attackers for nearly a half hour (spell ended before it was broken)

I can provide feats on the true strength of one of these barriers later, but it's pretty much impenetrable. This prevents damage both ways, nothing enters or exits this barrier once it's up, and it stays up for quite awhile. It's held off a large squadron of Superhuman beings before.

Note: He also casts a rolling wave of fire at his opponent in this scan.

Gromph conjures some quick magical attacks against the lich!

This is quick spell, only mere moments to cast, and it seeks out it's opponent.

Prismatic Spray

With a single Prismatic spray, Gromph produces a spell that sends out acid powerful enough to melt stone, powerful electricity, powerful fire (not in the description, but part of the spell), a killing spell, and a fear spell. He follows this with a spell meant to turn a caster's spell back on himself, something that could prove very useful in battle here (any soul attack or mystical attack provided by any of your team). Then proceeds to cast a spell powerful enough to burn a hole through the lich's chest and turn the parts of his body it hit into dust, the lich moves out of the way just in time to not be disintegrated outright....

Melf's Minute Meteors

Here, Gromph summons eight meteors and hurls them at his opponent. Each one of blinding white energy and detonates in "a stone-shattering explosion that demolished great gaping pieces of the undead sorcerer".

Gromph here conjures a powerful defensive spell that can shield him against most mystical attacks. The lichdrow is too powerful however, and overcomes this defense and defeats Gromph.

Fireball - Dispel Magic

A cornerstone spell in D&D, at least as powerful as an RPG, creates a blast of fire "six paces wide"

Gromph also dispels magic here, destroying the force cage that was put around him (similar to the spell I mentioned earlier that he can cast on your team).

No idea what this spell is...but it's pretty dang impressive

I hope your team has extreme piercing and slashing resistance. Here, Gromph conjures a two-dimensional black thin magical blade, that can only be blocked/destroyed via magic. He sends it after his opponent and it moves at blinding speeds, faster than even Nimor who can outrun an arrow. What's special about this attack, is it keeps coming back, over and over again, slicing it's opponents time and time again until the caster withdraws the effect. It gets dispelled by the Lich before it causes too much damage here.

Gromph conjures two homing platinum daggers

These daggers chase their target at arrow speed until they strike... They are also magically enchanted to be sharper.

Durability:

One thing I think I need to establish here, is Gromph is actually incredibly durable. I've already shown the ring of regeneration, but I haven't really shown off his true durability.

The lich unleashes a set of saw blades capable of carving through stone and obsidian, yet Gromph's defenses were enough to make the blades glance off him, leaving deep, but non-fatal wounds. So his durability is no joke, easily capable of tanking bullets. The only thing protecting Gromph at this point is his own equipment, no magic bubbles, no fire shield, no globe of invulnerability, this is his baseline defense with his standard equipment on.

Ogami Rei

Sticking with his original feats, nothing more needed from him to counter any attacks.

Biggest Advantages

My entire team has flight here, which is a big advantage. Ogami has it through Gromph's brooch (which provides levitation, not flight), Cloud has natural flight/levitation, plus he can leap vast distances, Maka can fly on her own with Soul Eater, and Gromph has his staff to give him flight.

Gromph allows my team incredible versatility, and incredible defensive capabilities. That and he has a huge variety of spells at his disposal. He can trap any member of your team within a wall of force, slice opponents to shreds using the thin black blade that moves at blinding speeds, create RPG level fireballs, conjure swarms of stone shattering meteors, disintegrate people with a single ray spell, conjure AoE attacks with a wide variety of affects, throw out seeking daggers with magically enhanced cutting power, etc. etc.

Over and above this, attacks that normally are capable of ripping through entire obsidian statues only leave deep wounds within his body, which close in moments because of his ring of regeneration. Plus he can further heighten that defense with his fire shield, and his Globe of Invulnerability, making him extremely resistant to all energy and physical attacks.

Then we have Cloud who can move at 250 mph on his motorcycle and perform extreme superhuman cutting feats. Meeting his blade with anything short of an indestructible weapon would lead to an instant fatality, and if it isn't a weapon capable of absorbing the full shock of his strikes, a character would surely be met with instant death or shattered bones. He can use his limit breaks to paralyze, send out blade beams, create immense gusts of wind, and so much more.

We have Maka who defends my team against telepathic attacks, and any assault directly against someone's soul or life force. She can cut through bullet-proof beings effortlessly, and can tank shots that would break stone and dent steel with minimal effort. Her soul perception is my biggest advantage, giving your team nowhere to run or hide, with Gromph's setup, she can easily call targets.

Ogami is another good one, his base durability can stop steel shattering attacks with his forearms without taking much damage. Having force that shatters concrete put against his entire body he still stands uninjured. His attacks have huge range and easily melt and disintegrate steel. The only drawback is he has no concussive force behind his attacks, other than the Dichromatic Flames of Mammon, which can be wielded like a pair of swords.

Ogami alone can disintegrate much of your team away from 20-30 feet away, and has enhanced durability because of that fire shield. Getting close to him will result in instant death.

Gromph can trap your team and cut your team to pieces from a distance using that black blade.

Maka will remain defensive, and only swoop in to assist when someone is confront in a melee confrontation, so she'll be pretty safe.

Cloud can sling fireballs and lightning bolts from a distance.

Remember, your team cannot hide from mine, and at a range my team has incredible versatility, my team isn't so dumb as to rush in for a melee encounter against melee specialists when they can do incredible damage to your team from halfway across the map. Plain and simply, your team has to come to mine, and seeing as they aren't teleporters, they won't be making it all the way to my team unscathed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#23 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Gromph himself should be immune to the stare because of the Skull Sapphire, but officially Gaze Screen sets up a mirror like effect in front of the recipients eyes, giving them a 50% resistance to all gaze attacks.
As for Gorgon, he's in great danger attempting to use his Gaze attack against Cloud. The Fushion Sword is incredibly reflective, and as already proven against Wolverine, catching his own reflection can prove fatal.

So, 50% of being turned into stone...? It's hard to translate actual comic book powers to DnD stat terms.

Let's be honest, while the wolverine reflecting claws did show a weakness, it was abhorrent PIS. Gorgon has super high reactions (much faster than Wolverine's snikting) and combat telepathy, he should've easily read Wolverine's stupid idea and avoided it. That's comic books for you but I honestly wouldn't rely on a super genius who's fallen for that strategy once to actively be countered by anyone who has any sort of reflective object on them. It's pretty diminishing to both Gorgon's abilities, reactions, and intelligence.

I hope you don't mind me removing the spoiler boxes, they make copy and pasting to respond to your argument wonky. I'm sure anyone who read your original post and watched/read your feats will understand what I'm responding to.

Maka Albarn
Because of the psychic link in my team, she can call out wherever your characters are at any given time, they have no means of hiding from her. Why? Because she can perceive souls from any distance (well, nearly any distance). Quick research shows that Alita is, in fact, a living organism with robotics built into her, so she she should also possess a soul.
Soul Perception
Maka is halfway across the planet, and she can weed out a single soul of someone she is looking for
Senses a soul wavelength all the way on the Moon (which isn't outside the Earth's atmosphere, like the real moon, just an FYI)

While nifty, I at no point said my team was hiding in the slightest. Alita is actively trying to shoot your guys from long range and anyone who gets close enough is going to eat some Biotic powers and Isaac's engagement. The only thing operating in a stealthy manner is Alita's surveillance only drones, which don't have souls. This would be handy if I were sneaking around, I suppose, but none of my members except maybe Liara do much in the way of stealth. If you were using it to react to my characters charging you or something that'd be cool, it'd basically be Maka being the position caller for your team like Alita is for mine, but you've seemingly decided on a strategy of flying and firing at my dudes with spells/abilities later in the post so it doesn't seem too relevant.

Cloud rides this bike:
This is an exact copy and paste of it's official statistics
Fenrir

Neat. Cloud should have similar travel speed to Alita. This is exactly why I said I was setting up a perimeter short of the halfway point and then using Alita's drone range and sniping to cover the rest of the distance.

Repost of earlier showings:
For proof of the reflectiveness of the Fushion Swords, and his bike skills, I am reposting these videos.
Cloud vs. Loz and Yazoo round 2
Cloud vs. Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz

All cool fights, but all of these reaction/bullet deflecting feats pale in comparison to most of my team -- though I acknowledge that Cloud was not at 100%. Gorgon has not only deflected bullets, he has deflected machine gun fire from three separate people and deflected it accurately enough to hit the target. I'd imagine if Cloud could knock a bullet back at Loz or Yazoo during the fight he would have. Alita has shot bullets out of the sky and dodge point blank shots while being held still by another cyborg (posted earlier, don't think I neat to repeat). Netero's hundreds of thousands of parries against an opponent who was several times faster than any hand gun should solidify his ability as well. Liara also dodged automatic fire at point blank range, but frankly I don't see her entering melee combat and I don't think anyone on your team has any ranged attacks that are faster than bullets (from what I've seen, a lot of your soul eater and gromph feats lack a certain amount of context on the speed of which they are happening. I'm sure you might have similar questions with Netero but I could post how fast Neferpitou is if you need some context, and he easily deflected her blitz).

While Cloud is certainly a significantly talented fighter, I'd wager he'd be way out of his depth vs Netero and I don't believe he has a counter for Gorgon's telepathy, though he is probably physically superior thanks to the venom perk. By my estimation Netero should trounce Cloud and Gorgon would lose, eventually, in a prolonged 1 on 1, but a single biotic attack that hits Cloud like Lift or Singularity would leave him helpless -- lift, especially, if he was flying, as Lift's specific effect on flying enemies is to cause them to fly uncontrollably against their will and that'd leave him a sitting duck.

If Cloud somehow managed to get to Alita, I don't see him countering her enhanced Chi and her ability to literally make his arms and head explode should she even make melee contact with his sword (Panzer Kunster is literally designed to send the vibrations through metal armor and weapons to affect an enemy). If he so much as blocked a kick from her, the fact that he's still made of flesh would leave him grievously wounded. The second he gets wounded, Liara uses Warp on him to destroy his regenerative factor. My team's incredibly well equipped to deal with any of his, albeit impressive, swordplay shenanigans.

3:30-3:41 - Cloud Dodges a lightning bolt, still affected by Geostigma. This lighting shatters the concrete floor with no issue.
4:00-4:30 - Cloud is cured of Geostigma
5:30-5:35- Cloud dodges lightning bolts again, after they are fired,
5:35-6:00 - Cloud is more than just matching Kadaj now, he's vastly overpowering him.
6:11-6:20 - Cloud throws Kadaj quite a ways with his attack
6:54-7:00 - Cloud attack Kadaj, and gets disarmed
7:15-7:25 - Continues kicking the crap out of Kadaj after retrieving his weapon

Cloud did not dodge lightning. While that may have been Thundaga or whatever, it was clearly a blue ball of energy that was not moving anywhere near lightning speed and with a significant windup and backhand to give it away. They look nothing like lightning at all, they're just blue energy streams. I absolutely question your interpretation of this if you're using it as a combat/reaction speed feat.

Gromph Baenre
Gromph can also trap a portion of your team, probably Gorgon tbh, inside an invisible wall of force, he does this to prevent a cloud of poisonous gas from escaping, but it's nigh indestructible, and has held off entire squadrons of attackers for nearly a half hour (spell ended before it was broken)
I can provide feats on the true strength of one of these barriers later, but it's pretty much impenetrable. This prevents damage both ways, nothing enters or exits this barrier once it's up, and it stays up for quite awhile. It's held off a large squadron of Superhuman beings before.
Note: He also casts a rolling wave of fire at his opponent in this scan.

Trap? It's a wall, walls aren't traps, they're monodirectional obstacles. It even says it's conjured in front of him and is described as, "the mist spread along the flat surface of the wall" and was used entirely defensively. The wave of fire seemed to have been dodged easily enough, I mean it was apparently one sidestep (albeit from a, from the context I gather, a very skilled person), what's the combat speed we're looking at here? What is the range, as well? If Gromph just flying a thousand feet in the air tossing spells at stuff he can't really see? Range is a very important issue when you go tossing around powerful magic, as is speed.

I won't question the strength of the barrier. It seems entirely unoffensive and meant for terrain control/protection. It just doesn't seem like much of an issue as the wording make it sound exactly like an indeterminately sized, flat wall that can be maneuvered around, if annoying.

Gromph conjures some quick magical attacks against the lich!
This is quick spell, only mere moments to cast, and it seeks out it's opponent.

Mere moments is a pretty long time with our combat speeds. I'll honestly disregarding the jibing chatter as merely dramatic effect for story purposes(books aren't that great without dialogue), but it doesn't seem all that fast or even too powerful. Blasts of fire should A: Be fairly easy to dodge or avoid and B: shouldn't be too damaging to my team. Everyone's either got wolverine level regen (gorgon and alita), high powered shields that tank multiple hits of plasma (liara's suit and her biotic barrier) or is Netero who is immune.

Prismatic Spray
With a single Prismatic spray, Gromph produces a spell that sends out acid powerful enough to melt stone, powerful electricity, powerful fire (not in the description, but part of the spell), a killing spell, and a fear spell. He follows this with a spell meant to turn a caster's spell back on himself, something that could prove very useful in battle here (any soul attack or mystical attack provided by any of your team). Then proceeds to cast a spell powerful enough to burn a hole through the lich's chest and turn the parts of his body it hit into dust, the lich moves out of the way just in time to not be disintegrated outright....

The only things that you could possibly describe as a soul or mystical attack on my team are Gorgon's gaze (debatable, it's a mutant power but obviously has some stint in mythology. I'd be willing to argue it's not) and Netero's Hyakushiki Kannon Zero, which he wouldn't be using unless he's incredibly desperate anyway. Godkiller is a magical sword, but it's not something you dispel so that should be irrelevant.

A few more, now redundant, questions on the spell: How fast is it? As you say, the Lich avoided/deflected parts of it, but I'm unaware of the Lich's combat speed or reactions. It seems pretty flashy. How much range does it have? You've posted several of these scans with fights between him and a lich and I seriously have no grasp for the range he's at. The best I can think of is that they're around 20-25 feet apart considering they're having idle chatter while they murder each other. I know certain spells have different ranges, but if it's anything shorter than 50 meters then you'd need to be charging through Liara's biotics which are pretty damn nasty.

I'm also unsure of the destructive power. The acid that melts stone is neat but should be useless against my team (shields don't melt to acid, netero immune, Alita is much tougher than stone and has regen, Gorgon's regen would be more than enough and I doubt it'd be so easy to hit a guy as fast as him with his telepathy, though I'm sure Gromph PROBABLY has some telepathy defense or somethin). One bolt is lightning which uh...crackles his robes? Ok. And the final one seems to disintegrate things but...how tough is the Lich? I mean, he's outright stated as a rotting bag of flesh and bones. It's really hard to quantify the effects of these scans.

Melf's Minute Meteors
Here, Gromph summons eight meteors and hurls them at his opponent. Each one of blinding white energy and detonates in "a stone-shattering explosion that demolished great gaping pieces of the undead sorcerer".

Well, here we go again. Range? Speed? How easy can it be deflected? Lich's durability compared to what? How big is the stone it shatters? I can show you how much collateral damage most of my team does to concrete or solid rock and stone, and I believe I have demonstrated it adequately. If each meteor takes a big chunk out of the lich, then that's what, half a meter of stone if I'm being generous? I'll take missile bees over that any day, and there's way more than eight!

Fireball - Dispel Magic
A cornerstone spell in D&D, at least as powerful as an RPG, creates a blast of fire "six paces wide"
Gromph also dispels magic here, destroying the force cage that was put around him (similar to the spell I mentioned earlier that he can cast on your team).

I can actually quantify something in this one, awesome. A "space" in DnD is usually seen as a 5 feet, so that's a 30 foot wide blast of fire, assuming it's a circle (as in Fireball) and that is the diameter then that's a fairly large blast. As usual, speed, destructive capability, range? Also lol at Gromph getting stunned by the backlash. I'm questioning his "tough as stone" durability if he's getting dizzy from smacking himself in the head with his own staff. Right there on the page the use of this spell literally disabled him for multiple seconds. He pulls that maneuver on my team and he'll get massacred by Missile Bees which should be ever present in the fight. If a bonk on the face does that to him, I'd hate to see what multiple dismembering explosions that easily tear through cyborgs (who can take normal bullets to the face and not flinch) would do to him as he "flapped out of control." :P

No idea what this spell is...but it's pretty dang impressive
I hope your team has extreme piercing and slashing resistance. Here, Gromph conjures a two-dimensional black thin magical blade, that can only be blocked/destroyed via magic. He sends it after his opponent and it moves at blinding speeds, faster than even Nimor who can outrun an arrow. What's special about this attack, is it keeps coming back, over and over again, slicing it's opponents time and time again until the caster withdraws the effect. It gets dispelled by the Lich before it causes too much damage here.

This is probably the only spell so far besides the defensive ones that has even given me a little bit of a pause. That said, it's only faster than a guy who is faster than an arrow. What's that, something over 100 meters per second? About 10 times slower than any of my characters reactions at best?

Also, "can only be blocked/destroyed via magic" I take issue with this statement. How can you possibly know that? Has Gromph ever used his magical blade against a futuristic forcefield? Has it ever been parried by a sword that can kill gods? No limits fallacy at its best. It seems as if Gromph is also locked into controlling the spell after the cast, and I'm getting very skeptical of Gromph's reaction time and durability. I'll get to that at the end of the Gromph section, though.

Gromph conjures two homing platinum daggers
These daggers chase their target at arrow speed until they strike... They are also magically enchanted to be sharper.

Arrow speed is pretty damn slow. Also, is platinum special in DnD land? Because platinum makes for some crappy weaponry because it's incredibly soft -- the softest of its element group. While I get that he also magically enhanced them so that might add to the durability, could my team just smash a couple of iron daggers with platinum edges? A serious parry from anyone on my team should laugh at this attack.

I'm also noticing that there is a consistent them to all of these spells. Aside from the ones he puts up in a hurry (usually defensive spells), all of these spells seem to take a lot of concentration, incantation, and multiple seconds to pull off. Compare this to Liara who, similar to Gromph, is my support character who can wordlessly launch incredibly powerful and fight altering biotic spells once every couple of seconds and I don't see how Gromph counters. Liara could quickly lock him in stasis, let some arachnos and missile bees crawl up on him, and when stasis ends, have dozens of massive explosions destroy him as soon as Gromph starts chanting, considering Stasis should have greater range (20+ meters) than anything I'm seeing here of Gromph.

And I know, he has the regen ring, but you never answered whether or not the ring would work if you blew off his hand.

One thing I think I need to establish here, is Gromph is actually incredibly durable. I've already shown the ring of regeneration, but I haven't really shown off his true durability.
The lich unleashes a set of saw blades capable of carving through stone and obsidian, yet Gromph's defenses were enough to make the blades glance off him, leaving deep, but non-fatal wounds. So his durability is no joke, easily capable of tanking bullets. The only thing protecting Gromph at this point is his own equipment, no magic bubbles, no fire shield, no globe of invulnerability, this is his baseline defense with his standard equipment on.

Easily capable of tanking bullets? You mean the bullets that I explicitly showed you from Alita which, with a single shot, destroyed an armored truck? Or her pistol which has also completely destroyed a truck, blown apart a giant room of a concrete building (with multiple shots, but still), or tears through titanium reinforced cybrogs like butter? No, if his level of durability is that something that cuts through stone and obsidian significantly injures him, then Alita's drones (as I have shown capable of destroying large swathes of concrete despite their size) and guns would wreck his durability.

Or how about Isaac Netero, I posted it before, you want to see what Isaac does to stone?

Ichi no Te, Isaac's standard strike with the Hyakushiki Kannon

Liara's attacks have destroyed steel/futuristic metal, as I've shown, and are more for disabling and regen cancelling purposes anyhow, but her guns are A: Armor piercing (so easily capable of stone+ level durability) or B: freakin plasma, and are also buffed by her Warp Ammo ability, which shreds through armor and shields. Warp Ammo will also apply to Alita's guns, so add that to her crazy destructive capacity. You also stated earlier that his globe defense does not stop physical attacks on your reread, wouldn't you say any of these bullets or a karate chop from a giant construct count as physical attacks? Or how about a swarm of insects flying at him from every angle, some which explode, some which cause plasma burnouts?

Gorgon has also pierced hard stuff many times before. Pinned Wolverine to a concrete pillar so deep that he couldn't free himself. That said I don't see Gorgon ever really getting too close to Gromph so that's moot.

And I know, he has a flame shield, and that should presumably increase his natural durability by a solid amount, but Warp Ammo is specifically extra effective against shields, so I wouldn't wager on a lick of flame greatly mitigating the power of Liara's or Alita's shots significantly.

I feel like Gromph is your most susceptible member despite all his magical defenses. He doesn't have to seem superb reaction time (has difficulties with nimor at times, who's got arrow level speed), he doesn't seem to enact his offenses particularly fast, he has enormous tells by having to chant spells etc. I understand he brings a lot of utility, but it all seems rather slow with undefined range. The only thing that might bail him out is you, during your prep explanation, said he casted perfect precognition on himself. I'm curious as to how that actually works, but frankly, I see Gromph going down rather quickly to a Stasis/Lift and being shot or having some explosive bugs crawl all over his body and going boom.

My entire team has flight here, which is a big advantage. Ogami has it through Gromph's brooch (which provides levitation, not flight), Cloud has natural flight/levitation, plus he can leap vast distances, Maka can fly on her own with Soul Eater, and Gromph has his staff to give him flight.

Don't see it as that big of an advantage. Alita's bees can fly, Liara's biotics work on people, flying or not(some even punish people who can fly extra hard), both have powerful guns, flying doesn't really affect getting shot, and your only people who seems to have truly effective long range abilities to abuse flight with is Gromph(still questioning his range) and Rei, and even they has shown nothing that puts him out of range of the Hyakushiki Kannon, which is 30+ meters high with 20+ meter arms. So unless you're flying 50+ meters in the air, you're not escaping Netero, either.

The only person who is at a disadvantage, on my team, from your flight is Gorgon and to a lesser extent Alita. Gorgon is purely melee and it's questionable how long range his Telepathy is (though it's atleast a few dozen feet), so he might actually be less effective, but I could say the same for Maka who seems to do all her nasty work at close range. Alita is only at a disadvantage because one of her biggest selling points is being a crazy good fighter, as I'd like to have her Panzer Kunst moves to completely mitigate your healing factors by just making their brains explode with a single strike. That said, she's got sniping feats of well in excess of several hundred meters with unerring accuracy (I've posted the scans, she was nailing headshots on guys who needed binoculars to see here with her pistol and tanking out armored cars with her assault rifle from similar distances and shooting bullet speed objects out of the sky), how are Rei and Gromph with bullets and plasma? I know Cloud can deflect them and I won't question his sword's durability, but taking shots from multiple angles (liara's got guns, too) while Missile Bees and Fireflies home in on you from other angles makes flying less than ideal. Atleast in melee range Alita would have to call off her more explosive drones, if you're just flying around trying to play the ranged sniping game then I think I've got you massively outmatched.

Gromph allows my team incredible versatility, and incredible defensive capabilities. That and he has a huge variety of spells at his disposal. He can trap any member of your team within a wall of force, slice opponents to shreds using the thin black blade that moves at blinding speeds, create RPG level fireballs, conjure swarms of stone shattering meteors, disintegrate people with a single ray spell, conjure AoE attacks with a wide variety of affects, throw out seeking daggers with magically enhanced cutting power, etc. etc.

That he does. I'd take Liara any day except for maybe on your Orb of Invulnerability thing. Her abilities take no chanting, they work as fast as she can think and point. They're much harder to dodge -- some are even instantly applied to the target's body, so you can't actually dodge them at all, like Lift, Stasis, and Pull, and she's got stuff that's incredibly effective against regeneration in Warp. Her ammo ability counters your shielding (to whatever extent magic vs future tech shields can be inferred), and many of her biotics affect multiple targets, like stasis and singularity (which would be a ball if you're seriously sticking to the flying thing). While she can't disintegrate a dude, her knack for completely disabling anyone she uses her biotics on makes them incredibly easy to handle if they so much as get within 30 meters of her thanks to Alita's drone's and, well, anyone else on my team attacking the affected target.

From what I can tell, she can also use these abilities much more rapidly. In the time it takes Gromph to start casting his offensive spells, Liara should be more than capable of using Stasis (which is instant and undodgeable and only fails to work on colossal beings), which completely disables the target for several seconds, and when it fades it causes them to collapse to the ground helplessly for a couple of seconds while increasing damage (in RPG terms, atleast). After that, it's a simple case of her using Warp to make him more susceptible to damage and having a few arachnos, missile bees, and fireflies go at him. His body will be blasted and plasma fried six ways to sunday and his Ring's regeneration will, at the very least, be mitigated by warp, and I'm unsure if it can really stop the level of damage I'm implementing here, as plasma disintegration and limb and brain shattering explosions would probably be too much to regenerate and, well, would separate him from his ring if any of these attacks go near his arms. If Gromph is so dang versatile, he'd probably be my first shot at someone I want to open up my biotic usage against.

PS: Swarms? If I read your own statement correctly:

Here, Gromph summons eight meteors and hurls them at his opponent.

Eight is not swarms.

Then we have Cloud who can move at 250 mph on his motorcycle and perform extreme superhuman cutting feats. Meeting his blade with anything short of an indestructible weapon would lead to an instant fatality, and if it isn't a weapon capable of absorbing the full shock of his strikes, a character would surely be met with instant death or shattered bones. He can use his limit breaks to paralyze, send out blade beams, create immense gusts of wind, and so much more.

Has Cloud ever broken a significantly durable weapon? I mean Sephiroth seems to trade long enough sword fights with him with what seems to be a typical, if very long, sword. I'm sure Alita's damascus blade (described in manga as the strongest steel in the universe) or Gorgon's Godkiller could hold up, and frankly, I'm not worried about Netero's construct. Good luck trying to destroy that.

We have Maka who defends my team against telepathic attacks, and any assault directly against someone's soul or life force. She can cut through bullet-proof beings effortlessly, and can tank shots that would break stone and dent steel with minimal effort. Her soul perception is my biggest advantage, giving your team nowhere to run or hide, with Gromph's setup, she can easily call targets.

Team doesn't use telepathic attacks, or anything that affects the soul or life force, so that's irrelevant. I think everyone here with a sword can cut through bullet proof beings and has that level of tanking, or atleast has regen.

My team's not hiding. Just daring you to come at us, which you seem willing to do. Knowing where Alita is doesn't stop her from shooting at you as soon as you get within several hundred meters of her. None of this has any affect on anything I've stated, really.

Ogami is another good one, his base durability can stop steel shattering attacks with his forearms without taking much damage. Having force that shatters concrete put against his entire body he still stands uninjured. His attacks have huge range and easily melt and disintegrate steel. The only drawback is he has no concussive force behind his attacks, other than the Dichromatic Flames of Mammon, which can be wielded like a pair of swords.

Excellent. Is he immune to biotics? What would he do, while levitating at presumably meager speeds with the brooch, if a Singularity came his way and Alita and Liara plowed into him with plasma and high powered weapons? Or Netero pummeled him with Kyuu Jyuu Kyuu no Te while he was helpless?

The no concussive force thing is interesting. Would Liara's projected Barrier be able to stop it then, considering it stops plasma weaponry (which I presume is much hotter, as it's, you know, plasma, which disintegrates things with much higher melting points than steel)? I know it has some fancy "burns the soul and mind" effect to it to, if someone blocks it physically does that aspect still reach?

If you want to put him in melee range with the fire swords, far be it from me to dissuade you.

Ogami alone can disintegrate much of your team away from 20-30 feet away, and has enhanced durability because of that fire shield. Getting close to him will result in instant death.

I've already given you my effective range. This does not in any way cut it.

Gromph can trap your team and cut your team to pieces from a distance using that black blade.

Nah, a wall doesn't trap anyone and he takes time to chant successive spells, even if it's fairly quick. I've already detailed how, as soon as Liara and Gromph get into anything resembling effective ranges for each other, Liara's instant usage and the disability it creates would wreck Gromph. Or, unless you can show me him responding to a something as fast and powerful as Alita's rifle, we just shoot him in the head before he gets in range, assuming his spells aren't 500+ meters.

Cloud can sling fireballs and lightning bolts from a distance.

Ok.

Remember, your team cannot hide from mine, and at a range my team has incredible versatility, my team isn't so dumb as to rush in for a melee encounter against melee specialists when they can do incredible damage to your team from halfway across the map. Plain and simply, your team has to come to mine, and seeing as they aren't teleporters, they won't be making it all the way to my team unscathed.

My team isn't melee specialized. Only Gorgon is. Alita's drones don't have a defined range, they just fly wherever. Her marksmanship and effective range with her guns massively outranges anything you've shown, as well. Liara's biotics are clearly not melee only abilities, and their effective range seems to be much higher than anything you've shown. My team doesn't have to come to you. Alita can just shoot you all day and send drones while Gabriel drops ammo if need be. You've got absolutely no one who has shown sniper range level interaction as far as I'm aware. I've already pointed out how Netero's construct has massive range despite being a "melee" construct, but even if you want to stand at 50+meter distance:

Isaac is hardly rendered useless by this tact. He keeps Kannon behind him for defensive purposes. If he didn't defend himself then the ant king would've killed him quite quickly (the Ant King thought the fight was over in this scan and was demanding Netero reveal his name). If you're trying to get tricky with your ranged attacks then I'd have no issue with Netero moving his Kannon from behind him and relying on his magical shield perk to ignore Gromph, Cloud and Rei's attacks.

My strategy was specifically that my team doesn't have to come to yours in the slightest because of Alita's sniping capabilites and the limitless range of her drones. Sit back as long as you want, eventually Alita can land a headshot. If you do decide to come through her minefield, that's fine. I completely and utterly disapprove the premise that my team has to charge yours in any sense.

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#24 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Fear my ultimate weapon: The great wall of text!

Sorry, I feel like I should've pruned it a bit as there's some redundancy, but I already spent a whole lot of time on it and don't feel quite up to it. Hope you don't mind reading a lot. :(

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#25 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

Alright, because I don't wanna hit the "Quote Button" or address too many of these points with their full text, I'm going to get a lot of them out of the way in Bulk so I don't have to make a wall of text before I provide more feats (I haven't even begun :P).

Gromph's Speed

I don't think any of these spells takes more than a few seconds, the best reasoning behind this would be in his fight with Nimor, Nimor can shadow walk in literally an instant (that is, so fast it might as well be instant, time doesn't function the same way on the shadow plane). While Gromph is fighting him he is able to start a spell, then at that instant Nimor steps into the shadows to counter Gromph, and then Gromph finishes the spell right around the time Nimor steps out of the shadows.

Other instances are as simple as him and the Lich starting their spells at roughly the same time, muttering through them, and then instantly finishing them.

As far as Melf's Minute Meteor goes, officially they each hit an area 3 feet wide, and they were described as stone shattering.

As far as him being knocked back by a "hit to the head with his own staff" that was caused from his own spell. I think you are reading that very wrong. It hit him in his lip and numbed it a little, and that happened because the Lich forcibly errected a barrier around Gromph which crushed his body into itself causing the magically empowered staff to smash against his face...

No, his ring cannot regrow a hand, but it can reattach a hand, at one point in the book his leg gets severed from his body and the ring helps him reattach it.

Overall I'd say his reaction time is above peak human (in fact, it'd be harder to prove that it was below peak human) considering he is fighting 2 opponent simultaneously, while casting and reacting to spells from one, while simultaneously dodging and casting spells against a second.

As for the Lich's speed. He's been described at moving at impossible speeds. Over and above this he can outrun a fireball with his flight speed, which is also described as moving as fast as a crossbow bolt, which is backed up by the concept that it can travel 400-800 feet in a span of less than 3 seconds (official stats based on range and the time of 1 combat round). Described here for him outrunning the fireball:

Nimor, the other guy Gromph is fighting, is faster than the Lich in every capacity.

As far as range goes, almost every spell official has a range of 300-450 feet minimum, most much higher than that, and cover that distance in 3 seconds or less (so cover at least 100-150 feet per second). Ray spells and lightning cover that distance instantly (also have ranges much higher than that), and other spells like the sprays (Prismatic Spray) have a huge area of effect (about 60 foot range, and covers an area of over 100 feet in an arch/cone pattern), but shorter range, at only 20 meters or so. Still would be lethal and deadly to anybody who charges them directly.

As for the Platinum daggers, Nimor wears magically enhanced mithril chain mail. So it's a good deal stronger than steel. As seen in this scan, those daggers cut him a few times. It was already established in one of my previous scans that Nimor was able to dodge and parry these daggers out of the way, yet they still hit him WITHOUT Gromph concentrating on him. Plain and simply, they seek out their target again and again until destroyed or after what seems to be at least 5-10 seconds (no time frame is really given, so I'm trying to assume minimal values here, Gromph throws them, gets swallowed by a giant centipede, conjures a spell, and observes the situation, and then notices the daggers are no longer there and Nimor has a few cuts, so I think 5-10 seconds is a reasonable assumption of time).

Ogami Rei

Ogami would be best to take out Liara and Isaac, as they have no means of harming him outside of a melee fight. And in a melee fight he would burn them to ashes in an instant because of the AoE of his blue flame.

However, he can easily solo Alita and Gorgon if they are foolish enough to attempt a confrontation against him.

Belephegor of the Dark!!!

Oh yeah, this is his main defense against Liara and Isaac!

It looks cool, but what does it do?

It has extreme AoE!!! He can use this thing to cover allies who are near him (within 20 meters or so), as well as himself (literally he is coated in this stuff at the moment)

BAH OKAY I GET IT, IT LOOKS COOL AND HAS RANGE!!! BUT WHAT DOES IT DO!?

Plain and simple....power cancellation. This attack negates special powers. Regeneration, power-based shields, telekinesis, magnetics, sound attacks, etc. etc. The ultimate defense against power users.

Cloud Strife

You can send all the bombs and missiles at him you want, he has extreme elemental resistances, so the heat and fire isn't going to do much, and as far as concussive damage goes...well...the guy has been thrown through several feet of steel without so much as dazing him or leaving a scratch. So there goes that.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth - the first conflict

1:10-1:45 - Cloud gets the jump on a distracted Sephiroth (severely distracted, tired, etc.). More impressively is his ability to lift and wield the Buster Sword, this is prior to any of his enhancements.

2:05-2:40 - Cloud lifts and runs with the Buster Sword, even performs a leap attack of Super Human levels, prior to any enhancements. This may be because

2:40-4:20 - Cloud bleeding, stabbed, barely conscious overpowers a Sephiroth who has been bleeding out a pretty hefty wound (so reasonably lost a lot of strength). Still lifts him and throws him out the reactor though, so pretty impressive. Still manages to walk around for a bit too.

The rest of the video is just before him and Zack get carried off to be tested on,

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Cloud vs. Sephiroth - In the lifestream

Because they are in a metaphysical plane of existence, it's only fair to assume they are physically equals, and that this is a contest of skill over stats.

0:55-1:10 - Sephiroth rips cloud to something similar to the astral plane, known as the lifestream

2:10-2:50 - Cloud owns the crap out of Sephiroth with omni-slash. a 15 strike combo

2:55-3:00 - Sephiroth is bleeding from several locations, confirming omni-slash, and his soul explodes into pieces (though he's not dead)

3:30-4:00 - Cloud exists within the lifestream, and pulls himself out and back to reality

4:10-4:40 - Holds himself and Tifa up with one hand, no signs of strain really

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Cloud vs. Sephiroth continued:

The Maiden who Travels the Planet

Chapter 7

But only Cloud knew about his retreat. Having been exposed to Jenova's cells, there were traces of Sephiroth's conscious in him - Part of his conscious resonated with it. Cloud could feel the existence of his remnant somewhere inside the Lifestream, continuing to obstruct Holy even now.

Letting only his conscious enter the Sea of Mako, Cloud went in pursuit of him. Riding through the currents, his old enemy was waiting for him. Sephiroth's soul was not yet destroyed and was still a threat to the Planet.

In the world of conscious energy, their swords clashed with each other as they confronted. Sephiroth, the strongest Soldier and the most admired person, tore his long sword across Cloud like a beam of light. But Cloud wasn't afraid. Believing that he had won, Sephiroth raised his long sword for his next strike and at that instant, Cloud struck out at him unleashing all the strength he had. His large blade slashed into Sephiroth's body during that brief opening. His attack opened up another opportunity for him as he struck out at Sephiroth again. It was an unstoppable storm of slashes - fifteen unavoidable attacks one after the other, cut through Sephiroth.

The mad apostate angel smiled boldly. But the damage he had taken was far beyond what he could endure and his spiritual body started to fall apart as he laughed. Beams of light blasted out from inside his body as if they were cutting him apart. Sephiroth was destroyed. Cloud's nightmare that had been continuing since five years ago in Nibelheim finally came to an end.

The Holy that was no longer obstructed immediately came into action.

This time, Cloud had separated from his body and was now in an absentminded state but, in the abyss of the Mako world, he saw a hand there to guide him. It was white and delicate - it reminded him of the hand that gave him a flower in Midgar. Unconsciously, he stretched out his hand...

His conscious returned to his body. Tifa’s hand grasped his as the ground below him collapsed away.

Cloud vs. Kadaj last fight pt 1

3:30-3:41 - Cloud Dodges a lightning bolt, still affected by Geostigma

4:00-4:30 - Cloud is cured of Geostigma

5:30-5:35- Cloud dodges lightning bolts again, after they are fired

5:35-6:00 - Cloud is more than just matching Kadaj now, he's vastly overpowering him.

6:11-6:20 - Cloud throws Kadaj quite a ways with his attack

6:54-7:00 - Cloud attack Kadaj, and gets disarmed

7:15-7:25 - Continues kicking the crap out of Kadaj after retrieving his weapon

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Cloud vs. Kadaj last fight, pt 2

0:12-0:30 - Cloud and Kadaj face off

0:35-0:45 - Finishing Touch, one of Cloud's limits. Throws Kadaj pretty dang far, and disarms him.

0:50-1:00 - You hear a "SWOOSH" sound, and then Cloud's there.

DON'T BOTHER WATCHING THE REST, I'M PROVIDING THE COMPLETE VERSION OF THE REST OF THE VIDEO BELOW

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Cloud vs. Sephiroth, Advent Children Complete

0:40-0:50 - Notice the crater Cloud creates when someone BLOCKS his attack. Anyone with durability lower than that of steel would literally be crushed to death or their weapon would shatter if they block his attack.

2:25-2:40 - Keeps up with Sephiroth pretty well, gets thrown through a steel structure, no signs of injury, not even dazed or stunned.

2:42-3:10 - Fight in the dark, does pretty dang well.

3:11-3:20 - Shoves Sephiroth through several floors of this steel/concrete structure

3:30-3:35 - Limit Break: Braver, rips through the steel in the structure in a cone shaped pattern (I refer to this as Braver v2)

3:35-3:55 - Not only leaps a hundred meters or more, keeps up with Sephiroth, and slices through a huge steel structure with zero issue while in midtravel

4:10-4:40 - Cuts through several pieces of steel and concrete, and then blocks an ambush from Sephiroth

4:41-5:10 - Fights Sephiroth, even while the platform his is on keeps turning, then cuts through a pieces of steel and concrete that looks about 4 meters thick and about 20 meters wide

5:15-5:40 - Dodges an attack by Sephiroth, then dodges, and block several more attacks (he's looking pretty tired here, but the guy has been fighting non-stop for over an hour and has no recovery materia). Gets thrown through a steel wall and emerges pretty unharmed.

5:40-6:05 - Emerges from the wreckage pretty unhurt, and ready for a limit. Comes in and throws out some pretty fast attacks, and then gets impaled in the chest.

6:10-6:35 - Gets launched twenty meters in the air, then gets stabbed through the arms, chest, legs, foot, and hand, and then thrown back into the structure below, and bleeds half to death.

7:45-8:55 - Cloud's greatest Limit Break, Omnislash version 6. Thirteen unblockable attacks right at someone's life force. Strikes so fast not even Sephiroth can react to them. That's really really fast. Sephiroth can cross half a cities distance in the blink of an eye, and he is moving in slow motion from Cloud's perspective as this happens).

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Gromph Baenre

Gromph turns himself ethereal, with renders him pretty much immune to physical attacks unless they are magically empowered.

This is more than a reasonable way to deal with bullets, melee attacks, and etc.

Reflexes and Speed

As for reflexes, Gromph drops his anti-magic bubble (he can't cast anything while it's up), and before a fireball can strike him he has his shield up and conjures a spell capable of pushing the fireball back, and then instantly regains control of the fireball.

Precognition and Dimension Door

You wanted to know how it worked. He knows exactly what's going to happen a few seconds before it happens. It's like an improved version of Spidey Sense.

He also Dimension Doors in an instant, which is handy.

Maka Albarn

You've stated the idea of using telepathy against my team. I mean, you can read their minds, but that's it. Gorgon cannot telepathically assault my team because of Maka, she can provide enough resistance to stop the affects someone who can affect an area the size of a small village with their mind altering attack, so there's that. In fact, just being around her shields her allies to a degree from illusions and mental assaults.

Durability, Skill, Reflexes, Etc. (all sort of gets jumbled together because of the scans)

Even without a weapon (which amplifies her physical abilities by quite a bit) she can tank this hunk of ice being launched at her at high speeds. This thing is about six feet in diameter, which assuming it has the same density as a gallon of water, would put it's weight at about a ton and a half.

I'm going to show my work for once, because I would have a hard time believing that number.

Now the, no official heights or weights are given out in Soul Eater. So that's fantastic, makes quantifying feats difficult. However, on a ball and chain, assuming this isn't supernaturally large for Free (wolf man), the ball is about 15 cm long. It looks pretty consistent in size throughout the scans, so we'll use that as a reference point.

Now then, The ball of ice is about 7.25 times bigger than the ball, I'm going to say 7 for the sake of ease, which would make the ball of ice 135 cm across.

The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * r^3.

So, this is 4/3 * 3.14159265359 * 67.5^3 (or 307546.875).

So the volume of this thing is 1,288,249.33429 cubic centimeters.

One gallon of water weighs approximately 8.3 pounds (this can change drastically from a wide variety of conditions, the more dense, the heavier, etc. etc., this is a number you would get if it were frozen between 0-31 degree F at sea level and blah blah blah).

One Gallon has a volume of 3,785.41178 cubic centimeters.

So we take the volume of the sphere and convert it to gallons and we have 340.32 gallons or so. So we multiply that by 8.3 to get the weight and we have 2824.65 pounds (about), or 1.412 tons.

Few scans later after some chit chat

So she's pretty durable herself to take that thing like an uppercut, and she was hit a few times before that shot as well.

Reflexes

Hard to quantify, but impressive

There are 10 of these things, as shown in the scans before, and they are ricocheting around and she's dodging them pretty handily, gets hit a couple times, but these things are small and hard to track, she also blocks and deflects them back (though the deflecting back is luck, even admitted by her)

The Warlock Hunter

Nice benefit here is it's quick, and it covers a lot of are because of it's size. It also can be used to block attacks, which it's size is also very helpful for that reason.

As you can see, it cuts through steel like butter, it's more than just a metaphysical attack, it's very much a physical attack as well.

Blocking machine gun fire (you can see it rip holes in her outfit in the background)

This is a mind affect soul attack, it CANNOT affect her (this is also a physical attack too, as it envelops her in those bandages)

Easily cuts through the attack and slices him in two, which again, made of steel and all. Also, this attack has pretty good melee range, considering how far away she is from that guy.

More Reflexes

Dodges these bullet wings...

She's pulling out ranged attacks like no other with her Scythe once it's been upgraded

The Witch Hunter (even it's weaker forms) was capable of cutting through steel and concrete, as proven in her fight with Crona. However, it was only able to scratch this guy and unable to damage him at all. So a better showing of the Warlock/Demon Hunter's ability would be against this guy

Didn't kill him? Why not?

Well, she wasn't trying to, but still, a good showing.

More showings of reflexes and ability

This guy's attacks are ripping through the floor (concrete) with no issue, he is wielding a chainsaw like weapon, but it's moreso just the chain (he is a weapon actually). He's extremely well trained as well, I can provide more feats for him if you really want.

Maka dodges and blocks these attacks pretty easily.

Again, Noise Cancelling, this time he's only doing it to himself and Maka, so not quite as strong as the first time.

With this attack, he can nullify attacks.

Noise Cancelling didn't just shut off his attack, it sent him into a docile state and made him collapse. So, with the exception of your one character with her Psy Shield, can anyone resist this attack?

Note: Obviously Soul and Maka are not using their ability to it's greatest extent, as there is no black dress produced.

Another version of this guy reforms and comes back in like 5 pages. But the fight is so god awful I don't even wanna post it, lets just say she gets overwhelmed through PIS and then wins through PIS. They essentially create a plot devices so that the guy's soul is too "loud" for her attack to work, and then the guy collapses because his new body can't withstand his anger.....it's just awful...god awful....and like 20 pages...

Overall:

The whole exploding organs via vibration thing seems great, but those Fire Shields should protect against it. It may be able to bypass armor, but those shields are completely separate from my teams body, which means by the time she makes contact with it, the vibrations she's putting it out will be dampened and if they even manage to bypass those shields, then they'll be no more effective than a regular hit. So there's that.

Bullets are great and all, but again, Fire Shields. They'll hit those shields and odds are they'll be next to destroyed and spent before they make it to my team mates bodies

Granted:

It takes 14 inches before this thing loses all it's energy, and the Fire shield hovers less than an inch around somebodies body. But as you can see, a bullet loses a heavy amount of energy when fired through water, and the higher the caliber, the greater energy lost once it meets any form of resistances

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As far as range goes, your team can fire all day, Cloud has Restore Materia to close any wounds my team sustains, Fire Shields to increase my teams durability beyond normal levels, enough durability on each character to tank at least stone to steel piercing attacks (unincluding the shield), and Cloud/Maka can regenerate from any wound and have bullet level speed.

Now then, as far as speed goes, Cloud is the fastest player on the board. You may have faster characters, but haste amplifies Cloud's speed by extreme amounts. If you watched those videos previously, you would see characters turn into a blue blur and suddenly appear in front of Cloud and the cam would go slow motion, that was them using Haste. Cloud is already as fast as a bullet because of the perk, so haste will amplify his speed when he uses it beyond those levels for brief periods of time.

Now even without his bonus speed, blocking an attack from him was enough to leave a 1 foot crater in the steel structure beneath Sephiroth's feet. That's enough force to turn a human being into paste, and would crush anyone without the ability to resist steel denting attacks, or at the very least break their bones. However, Cloud now has amplified strength AND speed, AND haste materia, which would make that attack at least three times more potent. Odds are BLOCKING an attack from him will be enough to kill any member of your team.

Sephiroth's cutting power is no joke, he can cut through several meters of steel effortlessly with a simple swing of his sword, but Cloud's sword remained un-damage by it's attacks

This is Sephiroth holding back while sparring with a few friends during Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core, just to show a little bit on his striking power.

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Then we have Maka. Maka can put your team members to sleep, and cancel out powers like Liara's biotics with her noise cancellation, and she's a proven bullet timer with extreme striking ability. Because of the Perk she has enhanced speed to bullet level, she has greater strength, and greater durability with regeneration. To say the least, she's a force to be reckoned with. That and Soul can perform his Noise Cancellation separately from her actions, so it requires no concentration on her end. Over and above this, she'll have the Black Dress, making her immune to any piercing/slashing attack, including your bullets, so shooting her down is not an option.

Finally there's Ogami. He can easily incinerate anyone on your team without touching them from over 20 meters away. Over and above this he can use his attacks to negate any special defenses (other than the Psy Shield of course) and any offensive powers used against himself or my team (so if he were to travel with Cloud to the front line, the two would be defended against powers from both Maka and Ogami, as well as immune to telepathic attacks because of Maka).

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#26 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Gromph's Speed
I don't think any of these spells takes more than a few seconds, the best reasoning behind this would be in his fight with Nimor, Nimor can shadow walk in literally an instant (that is, so fast it might as well be instant, time doesn't function the same way on the shadow plane). While Gromph is fighting him he is able to start a spell, then at that instant Nimor steps into the shadows to counter Gromph, and then Gromph finishes the spell right around the time Nimor steps out of the shadows.
Other instances are as simple as him and the Lich starting their spells at roughly the same time, muttering through them, and then instantly finishing them.
As far as Melf's Minute Meteor goes, officially they each hit an area 3 feet wide, and they were described as stone shattering.
As far as him being knocked back by a "hit to the head with his own staff" that was caused from his own spell. I think you are reading that very wrong. It hit him in his lip and numbed it a little, and that happened because the Lich forcibly errected a barrier around Gromph which crushed his body into itself causing the magically empowered staff to smash against his face...
No, his ring cannot regrow a hand, but it can reattach a hand, at one point in the book his leg gets severed from his body and the ring helps him reattach it.
Overall I'd say his reaction time is above peak human (in fact, it'd be harder to prove that it was below peak human) considering he is fighting 2 opponent simultaneously, while casting and reacting to spells from one, while simultaneously dodging and casting spells against a second.
As for the Lich's speed. He's been described at moving at impossible speeds. Over and above this he can outrun a fireball with his flight speed, which is also described as moving as fast as a crossbow bolt, which is backed up by the concept that it can travel 400-800 feet in a span of less than 3 seconds (official stats based on range and the time of 1 combat round). Described here for him outrunning the fireball:

This does not satisfy my team's attack speed or the speed of a bullet. Bullets travel atleast 800 meters per second, high powered weapons (such as Liara and Alita's) travel well upwards of of 1200 m/s, and that's being generous to you. Reacting to someone moving 400/800 feet per second is reacting to seomeone moveing 122/244 meters per second, several times slower than modern weapons. I don't think Gromph is going to be reacting to a bullet or 20 being fired at him from anything you've shown me. Doesn't look like beyond peak human reflexes at all, atleast comic book peak human.

Nimor, the other guy Gromph is fighting, is faster than the Lich in every capacity.
As far as range goes, almost every spell official has a range of 300-450 feet minimum, most much higher than that, and cover that distance in 3 seconds or less (so cover at least 100-150 feet per second). Ray spells and lightning cover that distance instantly (also have ranges much higher than that), and other spells like the sprays (Prismatic Spray) have a huge area of effect (about 60 foot range, and covers an area of over 100 feet in an arch/cone pattern), but shorter range, at only 20 meters or so. Still would be lethal and deadly to anybody who charges them directly.
As for the Platinum daggers, Nimor wears magically enhanced mithril chain mail. So it's a good deal stronger than steel. As seen in this scan, those daggers cut him a few times. It was already established in one of my previous scans that Nimor was able to dodge and parry these daggers out of the way, yet they still hit him WITHOUT Gromph concentrating on him. Plain and simply, they seek out their target again and again until destroyed or after what seems to be at least 5-10 seconds (no time frame is really given, so I'm trying to assume minimal values here, Gromph throws them, gets swallowed by a giant centipede, conjures a spell, and observes the situation, and then notices the daggers are no longer there and Nimor has a few cuts, so I think 5-10 seconds is a reasonable assumption of time).

Doesn't look like the daggers cut his nice mithril armor so that's an irrelevant point, as all it says is "he has a few new cuts." This seems like one of the lesser effective spells you could use in all honesty, especially given the whole conversation and the sneak attack he pseudo-succumbed to in the original scan when he was using the spell.

Ogami would be best to take out Liara and Isaac, as they have no means of harming him outside of a melee fight. And in a melee fight he would burn them to ashes in an instant because of the AoE of his blue flame.
However, he can easily solo Alita and Gorgon if they are foolish enough to attempt a confrontation against him.
Belephegor of the Dark!!!
Oh yeah, this is his main defense against Liara and Isaac!
It looks cool, but what does it do?
BAH OKAY I GET IT, IT LOOKS COOL AND HAS RANGE!!! BUT WHAT DOES IT DO!?
Plain and simple....power cancellation. This attack negates special powers. Regeneration, power-based shields, telekinesis, magnetics, sound attacks, etc. etc. The ultimate defense against power users.

I believe Rei's fire was ruled as magic for the status of Isaac's Magic Psy Shield, was it not? You're not cancelling Isaac's power. Also "They have no means of harming him outside of a melee fight" Did you, uh, look at any of my Isaac scans? He's got range well in excess of 50 meters with his Hyakushiki Kannon behind him. He's not limited to keeping it behind him if your entire cast's strategy is to fly at a distance and try to snipe my team, as I've shown him moving the Hyakushiki Kannon behind his opponent who was atleast 30 meters away. Unless you're actively coming to attack Netero in melee range, he has no reason to stay purely defensive. Isaac is, and I repeat this, not a melee only character. His statue has sizeable reach and can move separately from Isaac.

Next, that does not look even close to 20 meters. The affected parties all seem to be very close to him, about 10-15 feet.

Thirdly, does he have to hit them with those black flames to power cancel? If so then that's irrelevant, Isaac and Liara don't come anywhere near that close to use their abilities. Liara's abilities are technological and biological anyhow, so I'm not sure that'd actually stop them (use biotic amps to create mass effect fields, mass effect fields aren't magic or soul based or whatever the defined power mechanic in that manga is). I also believe you're pulling on the no limits fallacy, here. Does any attack that comes near him just disappear? It looks like he has to cancel the users power directly by touching them with the black flame from those scans, not that he's just outright invincible to other powers. The guy even is capable of charging him physically, what stops Kannon from hitting him? What stops a singularity from ripping him apart and exploding in his face while my team shreds him, or stasis rendering him useless?

Cloud Strife
You can send all the bombs and missiles at him you want, he has extreme elemental resistances, so the heat and fire isn't going to do much, and as far as concussive damage goes...well...the guy has been thrown through several feet of steel without so much as dazing him or leaving a scratch. So there goes that.

Actually, no it doesn't. Did you forget that Alita's drones include fireflies, which leave a 5meter diameter plasma ball burning for five seconds on activation? Also, while he can survive being pushed through steel, controlled explosions all over his body that, well, take out large chunks of reinforced concrete would still hurt him. I mean his body has been pierced by bullets before, he's not THAT ungodly durable.

There isn't much new here in any of the scans. It's not a revelation that Cloud can lift and swing and even juggle his buster sword or that he's a great melee fighter. I've already contested the "dodges lightning bolts" feat because those attacks neither look like lightning, act like lightning, or move as fast as lightning (slow blue energy trails?). There's nothing besides presumed elemental affinity that makes them anywhere close to lightning in any sense of the word. I've never contested his ability to effectively fly, though the "disarms" him part doesn't seem wholly accurate. He's holding onto that box and needs to catch himself because of how far Cloud's attack launched him. Kadaj effectively disarms himself by not wanting to fall to his death or lose the box that has all the Sephiroth juice in it.

Gromph Baenre
Gromph turns himself ethereal, with renders him pretty much immune to physical attacks unless they are magically empowered.
This is more than a reasonable way to deal with bullets, melee attacks, and etc.

Reflexes and Speed

As for reflexes, Gromph drops his anti-magic bubble (he can't cast anything while it's up), and before a fireball can strike him he has his shield up and conjures a spell capable of pushing the fireball back, and then instantly regains control of the fireball.

Handy spell but it seems to have limitations. It looks like it only lasts for a few seconds, maybe up to 10 given that he floated away while ethereal, he also seems very adverse to using it, but I'll let that slide. Also he would need to be able to react to the bullets being fired to cast the spell (though I don't question it's relatively instant effect given the "spends extra energy to make it go faster" part) in time to go ethereal. I don't see how this is a reasonable defense from bullet fire at all unless you can show me him being able to respond to bullets or him being able to keep up the ethereal time for long enough to cast other spells, as sitting there for 10 seconds before my team can shoot him again is prolonging the inevitable. Gromph's biggest hindrance in this fight seems to absolutely be his lack of quantifiable combat and reaction speed relative to how fast bullets work or biotics work.

Precognition and Dimension Door
You wanted to know how it worked. He knows exactly what's going to happen a few seconds before it happens. It's like an improved version of Spidey Sense.
He also Dimension Doors in an instant, which is handy.

Oh so it's like spider sense, excellent, I picked Liara knowing full well there were Spider-man and spider-man rip offs in this tournament as many of her powers are not dodgeable, such as the one I stated her using on Gromph (Stasis). The only limitation is that she be able to see her target and that it not be incredibly large -- I assume Gromph is man-sized unless he's also going to open up the fight with beast growth, lol. It also doesn't seem to actively increase his reaction time, just give him a warning of oncoming danger. While handy, if you can't dodge or react to something, knowing danger is there doesn't help much -- just ask Spiderman.

You've stated the idea of using telepathy against my team. I mean, you can read their minds, but that's it. Gorgon cannot telepathically assault my team because of Maka, she can provide enough resistance to stop the affects someone who can affect an area the size of a small village with their mind altering attack, so there's that. In fact, just being around her shields her allies to a degree from illusions and mental assaults.

I believe this is the fourth time you've brought this up and I don't know why I have to repeat myself again, Gorgon does not attack people with his telepathy. His telepathy has always only been used to basically know everything his opponent is thinking, he has never attacked their mind in the slightest. No one on my team has telepathic attacks. I thought we cleared this up when you said Maka's ability wouldn't stop his mind reading? That's all his Telepathy is. It's very good mind reading, he can dig up long lost thoughts that aren't even on the surface of his opponent's thoughts against people with good telepathic resistance (Wolverine, Elektra) to taunt them, but it doesn't attack them at all. Team doesn't use illusions either, unless you count physical after images as illusions like when Isaac does his prayer.

Durability, Skill, Reflexes, Etc. (all sort of gets jumbled together because of the scans)
Even without a weapon (which amplifies her physical abilities by quite a bit) she can tank this hunk of ice being launched at her at high speeds. This thing is about six feet in diameter, which assuming it has the same density as a gallon of water, would put it's weight at about a ton and a half.
[cutout math for room, it's all sound so i'm not questioning it]
So we take the volume of the sphere and convert it to gallons and we have 340.32 gallons or so. So we multiply that by 8.3 to get the weight and we have 2824.65 pounds (about), or 1.412 tons.
Few scans later after some chit chat
So she's pretty durable herself to take that thing like an uppercut, and she was hit a few times before that shot as well.

I actually think you're shortselling yourself on the math here. It's clearly well in excess of 1.412 tons of force, as it's being swung quite quickly at someone who atleast has very good reactions.

That said, she was left incredibly dazed and bleeding. It doesn't seem like something she'd be wanting to take, and I guarantee you Isaac's Hyakushiki Kannon and any melee hit Alita hits is going to be harder (HK has significantly more powerful striking feats) or more lethal (Alita's Panzer Kunst would kill her on contact regardless of her blunt force durability because she has a brain...she does have a brain, right?).

Reflexes
Hard to quantify, but impressive
The Warlock Hunter
Nice benefit here is it's quick, and it covers a lot of are because of it's size. It also can be used to block attacks, which it's size is also very helpful for that reason.
Didn't kill him? Why not?
Well, she wasn't trying to, but still, a good showing.
More showings of reflexes and ability
This guy's attacks are ripping through the floor (concrete) with no issue, he is wielding a chainsaw like weapon, but it's moreso just the chain (he is a weapon actually). He's extremely well trained as well, I can provide more feats for him if you really want.
Maka dodges and blocks these attacks pretty easily.

Nifty fight but it doesn't show all to much. I can't really judge the scale of her opponent's speed or skill, as you said, it's hard to quantify. I'm sure she's clearly superhuman, but I don't see her coming into melee combat to be all too effective. Netero should easily be able to deflect her and she has no counter, that I've seen, for Alita's Chi(if you've forgotten, it's complete supernatural awareness of her surroundings and it gives her combat precognition and shows any weakness in the opponent's defenses) or Gorgon's telepathy(NOT AN ATTACK, he just knows what you're going to do). Liara is my most susceptible to melee combat, but she's being defended and, honestly, she should just be able to use any of her plethora of instant effect Biotics to disable her should she blitz.

Again, Noise Cancelling, this time he's only doing it to himself and Maka, so not quite as strong as the first time.
With this attack, he can nullify attacks.
Noise Cancelling didn't just shut off his attack, it sent him into a docile state and made him collapse. So, with the exception of your one character with her Psy Shield, can anyone resist this attack?

Exactly like with Rei's power cancelling, you're being very vague on the particulars of this ability. None of my characters powers are based around wavelengths with the possible exception of Alita's martial arts(which use vibrations to increase attack power), why would this cancel abilities given by mutation(gorgon) or technology (Alita or Liara)? From what I can tell, Giricco is a weapon, his powers are explicitly outright similar to Soul's and that's why he can cancel them. Can they just make anyone who is alive pass out? I also do not know the range on it, it looks like Girrico comes in close to that little net like thing and it takes effect on him, which is very close to Maka. I'm skeptical of the efficacy of all parts of this attack.

The whole exploding organs via vibration thing seems great, but those Fire Shields should protect against it. It may be able to bypass armor, but those shields are completely separate from my teams body, which means by the time she makes contact with it, the vibrations she's putting it out will be dampened and if they even manage to bypass those shields, then they'll be no more effective than a regular hit. So there's that.
Bullets are great and all, but again, Fire Shields. They'll hit those shields and odds are they'll be next to destroyed and spent before they make it to my team mates bodies

This makes absolutely no sense. Your shield should not be able to stop Alita's punches from reaching anyone. She's A: Absurdly strong, I've shown her tossing several ton pillars a dozen meters away one handed B: She's absurdly fast, she has hypersonic striking feats C: She's buffed by the Venom Perk. I think you're well overestimating the defensive powers of your flame shield if your response to my attacks is "Well the Flame Shield just stops all of them" because it's clearly not that strong. You outright told me that it's best feat was mitigating a "platemail busting attack" which, I mean come on, Liara's my weakest striker and she hits harder than that.

Also, Alita doesn't release the vibrations until she hits her target. It would make no sense for the shield to stop the Hertza Haeon. It's not like the flame shield can confuse her Chi, which literally tells her the weakness of her enemy.

I also explicitly brought up your fire shields multiple times in my post, saying all of my bullets are Warp enhanced and are extra effective at dealing with and penetrating shields. There's no magic in the Mass Effect universe, but there's like a million different kinds of shields. Again, these bullets destroyed armored cars with one shot and now they're enhanced, I'm calling you out for saying that your shield just outright stops Warp enhanced bullets of this firing power, show me the shield coming close to stopping something so strong.

It takes 14 inches before this thing loses all it's energy, and the Fire shield hovers less than an inch around somebodies body. But as you can see, a bullet loses a heavy amount of energy when fired through water, and the higher the caliber, the greater energy lost once it meets any form of resistances

The heck? Water is non compressible. Show me where fire is non-compressible, and thus massively debilitating when regards to high speed velocity, and I'll buy it. Until you tell me it's not a flame shield but a 4 feet of water shield, this is very irrelevant. "Any form of resistance" ? I mean really? This point makes absolutely no sense.

As far as range goes, your team can fire all day, Cloud has Restore Materia to close any wounds my team sustains, Fire Shields to increase my teams durability beyond normal levels, enough durability on each character to tank at least stone to steel piercing attacks (unincluding the shield), and Cloud/Maka can regenerate from any wound and have bullet level speed.
Now then, as far as speed goes, Cloud is the fastest player on the board. You may have faster characters, but haste amplifies Cloud's speed by extreme amounts. If you watched those videos previously, you would see characters turn into a blue blur and suddenly appear in front of Cloud and the cam would go slow motion, that was them using Haste. Cloud is already as fast as a bullet because of the perk, so haste will amplify his speed when he uses it beyond those levels for brief periods of time.
Now even without his bonus speed, blocking an attack from him was enough to leave a 1 foot crater in the steel structure beneath Sephiroth's feet. That's enough force to turn a human being into paste, and would crush anyone without the ability to resist steel denting attacks, or at the very least break their bones. However, Cloud now has amplified strength AND speed, AND haste materia, which would make that attack at least three times more potent. Odds are BLOCKING an attack from him will be enough to kill any member of your team.

You can't use restore materia on someone who's dead. Regeneration is stopped by headshots and Alita's got plenty of those. "Stone/steel piercing attacks" Well Alita's bullets don't pierce stone or steel, it outright annihilates it. Again, highly armored vehicles get reduced to smoldering scrap from one shot of her rifle. You've also given me zero responses about fireflies. I'll give you that Rei probably has some uncanny resistance to super hot attacks, but the rest of your team got any plasma blocking feats?

I agree that with the Haste and the Perk that Cloud has greater combat speed than anyone on my team besides maybe Alita. If Cloud actually does want to go into melee range as you're implying, and not fly around shooting magic like you said he was earlier, then Netero will handle him. I showed you earlier that Netero effortlessly swatted away a character named Neferpitou as he tried to blitz him. How fast is Neferpitou's blitz?

That's him blitzing several kilometers faster than Gin can say a sentence. Those two kids who couldn't even keep up with him blitzing their mentor? At that point in the series they're casual bullet timers(Gon is effectively Kid Goku after greed island/during Chimera Ant arc). I already showed you Netero smacking away his speed blitz earlier in this thread, any speed you've got Cloud going at should not get past Isaac, who has also rebuffed hundreds of thousands of attacks from Mereum, someone who is much faster and much more powerful than Neferpitou. Isaac's defense and reaction time are legendary.

also, I believe it was outright stated that self buffing via haste can only bring you to the maximum allowed speed. That means your combat speed is at the max + the perk's lone ability to increase it above the max. This should be well within my team's ability to react.

PS: Netero can block Cloud all day. Cloud is not faster and is not stronger than Mereum, and Netero's construct held up.

Then we have Maka. Maka can put your team members to sleep, and cancel out powers like Liara's biotics with her noise cancellation, and she's a proven bullet timer with extreme striking ability. Because of the Perk she has enhanced speed to bullet level, she has greater strength, and greater durability with regeneration. To say the least, she's a force to be reckoned with. That and Soul can perform his Noise Cancellation separately from her actions, so it requires no concentration on her end. Over and above this, she'll have the Black Dress, making her immune to any piercing/slashing attack, including your bullets, so shooting her down is not an option.
Finally there's Ogami. He can easily incinerate anyone on your team without touching them from over 20 meters away. Over and above this he can use his attacks to negate any special defenses (other than the Psy Shield of course) and any offensive powers used against himself or my team (so if he were to travel with Cloud to the front line, the two would be defended against powers from both Maka and Ogami, as well as immune to telepathic attacks because of Maka).

I addressed all of this. Your power cancellation is both suspect in range and breadth of ability. Show me noise cancellation or Rei's power working while flying high above everyone (as you stated your team was) and working on tech and biology based powers like Liara's and Alita's. Show me it working faster than Liara can use Lift or Stasis, which are instant. Show me black dress surviving plasma (which I have both in SMG and drone form). You've made so many assumptions on how easily your team deals with mine and resists all of my attacks and none of them seem even the slightest bit practical or reasonable and some have been outright ignored. You acted like Warp Ammo just doesn't exist or matter, like I never said the word plasma, like Gromph is immune to my specifically greatly enhanced bullets and can react to them, like Rei's range is much higher than shown in his scans, etc etc. You've made out like Netero does not exist or cannot do anything outside of melee range (stated yourself three times in this thread) when I've outright proven that to be a lie. You still haven't shown me one reasonable defense (besides Gromph's ability to go ethereal for a short time) to any of my stated Biotic attacks which I gave you a full list of and detailed information to acknowledge.

Stasis is instant, as seen here(no one has videos of Liara but she has the same power) and shields don't stop it:

Lift and pull are the same. No travel time, nothing to dodge. What stops your team from eating Stasis and having a firefly sit on them and burn out a giant plasma ball on their face when it drops? Don't tell me Noise Cancellation, which is both slower than her Biotic powers, and has not shown higher range or the ability to work on technology and biology charged powers (everything in Soul Eater universe seems to be Soul based).

I DO NOT HAVE TELEPATHIC ATTACKS ARRRRGH

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#27 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

I have to go to bed soon, but before I go to bed I just want to point out.

Rei's abilities are all biologically based. There is no magic in it. All the characters in the Code: Breaker series receive their powers through genetics. The magnetic guy, the sound guy, all of them. He doesn't use "Magic" to cancel out powers, it's his innate ability inherited through his genes.

Inheritor of the Imperial Blood of Purgatory

It is genetic, just like every other power. It seems beyond genetics, but it's not.

He is the Forbidden Being.

His main power is the control of the flames. Which can burn through waves of steel. His power is inherited through genetics, just like everyone elses powers throughout the series.

Stated again, their power is in their genes, they draw on their own life force in order to do the things they do.

If you'd like I can find over a dozen different scans stating power users gain their powers through genetics, not some other mystical source.

His power just also happens to have astral attacks as well as fire/heat attacks. I mean you can ask if you'd like, but he said only soul attacks aren't allowed, and other psyker attacks. He even stated powers that conjure fire out of nowhere like the Human Torch, who's attacks were not magical by nature were allowed. Ogami has heat manipulation, it affects steel, it burns concrete, it melts glass, etc. etc. He just also can produce a flame that negates powers, and his power is dubbed the Seven Flames of Hell.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#28 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: Alright here is what I gather.ed. Code Breaker is all Science Base (Genetics and Biological) powers. However they have Soul attacks as well.

So in this case the Soul attacks will not work. I only spcified Biotics and Force Users as falling in with the Magic and Psychic Users.

So Floopay in many ways found a perfect loop hole in a Genetic characters that has Soul attacks as well, in a universe that Soul Attacks are scientifically explain. Bravo.

Point is Floopay knows Soul Attacks are negated by the MPS (Magic Psy Shield). However the Flames which are Genetic base are not negated.

This said Character has also the ability to shut down Biological Powers. I will not make a ruling on this. I will let you to debate why or why not it should or should not work. Lets the voters decide who has the better argument there.

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#29 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

It's not much of a loop hole. Onslaught as essentially Charles Xavier and could absorb people's essence and Charles without any enhancements is capable of Astral Projection... Rogue drains people's life force and "essence", Phoenix users can do the same, and even Emma Frost was capable of Astral Projection. There are actually a lot more characters capable of similar feats in the X-Men alone... All of which they are capable of doing through genetics (except the Phoenix)... Lots of characters have astral powers and attacks gained through genetics.

@Dredeuced:

Alright. Now that that's taken out of the way. I am going to just clear up some points about my characters.

Gromph Baenre

Precognition - This is better than Spider Man's Spidey Sense. Spidey Sense kicks in moments before a danger comes and doesn't really warn him what's going to happen, he just sort of has to "figure it out". Gromph on the other hand, his precognition was capable of alerting him something was about to happen seconds before it happened. Considering the Shadow Walk Nimor uses is instant, him being able to block it is a huge advantage here.

Durability - Even his base durability is pretty ridiculous, at least where he's armored. I've already proven that attack which sliced through a 4 armed obsidian statue (man sized ) and a stone table like they were nothing only made it deep enough to make a "deep wound" in his body after going through his armor. If he had his fire shield up, it's doubtful they would have made it to his skin, considering at best they made it halfway to his bone wherever they struck (as he still had use of his arms, they clearly didn't sever any tendons or break any bones, so they couldn't have made it too deep).

Flight - Flight is always a nice advantage, in any situation.

Contingency Spell - If the conditions for this spell are met, it will automatically activate a specific spell. In this case it would be teleport (the only one I've seen Gromph actually put on himself, I've seen other casters do more powerful spells, but I think based on past events this is the most probable one for him). He would teleport to a location he picked under the event the conditions are met, which for him would be under the event he is hit near a vital point. This was similar to the condition he set up in the books, I can look it up if you'd like.

Assaults - Your team might be fast enough to dodge the attacks, but a lot of his attacks have pretty dang good AoE, shoot out multiple projectiles, or seek out their target. To assume your team can easily dodge his attacks when they are up against an armada of other attacks, especially when a lot of these are AoE seems ridiculous.

Liara - She has to see him to do her stasis and attacks? All drow have the innate ability to conjure a 20 foot sphere of darkness around themselves that doesn't affect them. I can dig up several scans proving so if you'd like. He can conjure this instantly, and with his precognition, if he knows she's about to use stasis on him (and he knows how her powers work because of the conditions of this battle), he can simply erect a blanket of darkness

Alita - Alita will be pretty easy to see, he can faerie fire her, another innate drow ability. It'll blanket her body in blue fire. This will not obscure her vision, or harm her in any way, as it doesn't produce heat. It'll simply make her stick out like a sore thumb, which will make dodging her attacks a hundred times easier, as she'll be a big blue impossible to miss person who's movements are easy to track because they are illuminated. Against her attacks, because of his precognition again, he can defend himself with a wide variety of ways. Invisible force walls to obscure the path of bullets before they are even fired, becoming ethereal long enough so that she can't hit him, etc. etc.

Gorgon - Gorgon has no means of harming Gromph, so he's a non-factor.

Nero - Against Nero he has his fire shield, his precognition (at least for the first while of the battle), his flight, his insane durability with his armor, over and above this he has his contingency spell. I think Nero would be the toughest person for him, considering his perk.

Maka Albarn

Striking Power - She can already cut through steel constructs with a single swing of her weapon. The Witch Hunter alone moved through several feet of concrete without any loss of speed, and it was only able to leave a scratch in one of her opponents bodies. However, her demon hunter was able to rip through that guy's entire body, plus cut through his attack (which showed to resist it) in a single swing, so several times more powerful. Her base weapon can cut through bullet proof bodies without any issues. However, she has enhanced speed because of the perk, plus the extra 2 tons of strength. So realistically she should be able to rip through titanium like butter if she's 20 times faster than normal.

Durability - She can tank slashing attacks that rip up concrete floors without any loss in speed. Over and above this she's got Wolverine's healing factor because of the perk. She'll be immune to piercing/slashing attacks because of her black blood dress, and only be susceptible to melee attacks. But she also tanked a 1.5 ton ball of ice striking her in the face, and was only mildly stunned. This was without her weapon, which would amplify her defense.

Speed/Reflex - Maka can already block machine gun fire, and handle 10 projectiles richochetting around her without too much issue. With this perk she has bullet speed, that is, 1,000m/s speed. It's doubtful many people can really tag her, as this would amplify her speed by over 20-30 times where it normally is (at least).

Noise Cancelling - You have one character who uses her chi and resonates chi.... I mean, that is the exact thing this protects against.....to the letter. Over and above this, she was able to KO a character by manipulating their soul with a soul attack. She reverberates these sorts of attacks back against the user, as I already proved in her fight with Arachne (Spider Lady). Then again against Giriko (chain saw guy), but she was able to affect his soul directly. However, she obviously wasn't going all out because she didn't create the Black Blood Dress nor did they show any signs of strain. Which makes sense because the first feat (against Arachne) was when Soul Eater (her weapon) was on a fraction of his current power, since his upgrade he can perform Noise Cancellation on his own.

In a universe where all powers are neutral and work (aka, where the Force works in the same universe as the Weave, where Jedi Mind Tricks work on the non-force attuned, where a robot immune to Warp would also be immune to psychokinetic attacks, etc. etc.), her noise cancelling should work on anyone who has a soul. In Soul Eater (manga), one of her abilities is to perceive souls and soul wavelengths (which every soul puts out). Her weapon, Soul Eater, can then resonate a frequency to affect said souls across a large medium. He was able to affect hundreds if not thousands of souls in order to negate the effects of Arachne's soul webs, and went so far as to bank off of her own attack by matching frequencies and widening his own attack.

Flight - Obviously an advantage, she flew several hundred miles in the span of a couple hours, so she can do it pretty fast too. With the perk she should be able to do this even faster.

Liara - Dunno how Liara would fair against her noise cancelling. We'll let the voters decide, but Liara could be the most dangerous opponent for Maka because of Stasis. However, Ogami can also free Maka if he's nearby, and being in Stasis wouldn't actually stop Maka's Noise Cancelling ability, as that can be done even if she's paralyzed.

Gorgon - Again, not much of a factor. She knows not to look him in the eyes, and even if she does, Ogami can save her, and she's only got a 50% chance that his gaze will even work.

Alita - Alita should be the most susceptible to Noise Cancellation, her attacks actually match the definition of what Noise Cancellation banks off of. With Maka's speed, those bullets would be incapable of harming her, as the only spot she's susceptible to them is her face, and she can already block machine gun fire at base speed, being 20x faster would make blocking them effortless. In a melee fight, Alita can't use her chi attack because of Maka's ability.

Nero - Nero is also dangerous, because of blunt force attacks. However, Maka isn't exactly weak against these, and she has bullet speed, and extreme regeneration to make her more than capable of handling blunt force attacks.

Cloud Strife

Striking Power - Realistically, he's the top dog in this match in this category. At his normal speeds, at best Cloud can be said to travel 100 meters per second, maybe a 150 meters per second (you'll see why I'm assuming these numbers later). A single attack from him cuts through several meters of steel without slowing his momentum at all. Blocking an attack form him created a 1 foot deep, and at least 4 foot wide crater in a steel structure. With his perk, Cloud moves at least 6 times faster, and has a bonus 2 tons of strength added to his own. This would amplify his cutting power by at least three to four times it's normal quantities. Over and above this he can use haste to double his speed for a short period of time, making him 12 times faster than his normal quantities.

Over and above this he has shown that he can shove an opponent through several feet of steel and concrete with a single push.

Then stacked on top of this he has his limit breaks, which I've shown already, but to just to reiterate:

If you go back through the videos I've posted, all of these are shown at one point.

Limit Breaks - For unexplained reasons, Cloud can access several powers similar to the way Zack Fair accesses his Digital Mind Wave for a variety of effects, including:

  • Braver - Sends out a cone of attacks capable of ripping through steel
  • Cross-Slash - Stuns or paralyzes an opponent momentarily
  • Blade Beam - Sends out a powerful energy beam from his sword, capable of stopping a rolling Earth attack the size of a small hill.
  • Climmhazard - Amplifies his cutting power to an unknown degree, but allows him to cut through things that his attacks normally would have no effect on.
  • Finishing Touch - A powerful wind attack that can fling a normal sized person over a hundred meters with but a swing of his sword.
  • Omnislash - A fifteen strike combo, used when an opponent opens up a vulnerability in their defense or fighting style, mainly used as a counter-attack
  • Omnislash version 6 - A thirteen strike combo directly through a person's soul.

Durability - Cloud has tanked a bullet to the face and it left a small scratch on his forehead. These same bullets were capable of bouncing his Fushion Sword (the main piece) in the air like a toy, so they were several times more powerful than a normal bullet. Over and above this he's been thrown through steel structures without sustaining any damage, and was flung through a plasma ball that was shown to be fully capable of shattering and melting through large steel structures. So he's also extremely resistant to heat.

He was shot through the chest once by the same guy who shot him in the forehead, which seemed inconsistent, but it shot him in roughly the same area where he had been stabbed by Sephiroth moments ago, which seems about right. The reason I bring this up is because there is another character similar but weaker to Cloud who was shot point blank in the face and also only wound up with a bloodied scalp, and was not KO'd or killed (well he died later, but he took on a small army of soldiers). So it's more than consistent to say his durability against bullets is pretty high, as well as against blunt force.

He also has immense pain resistance, as he was stabbed by Sephiroth through the chest on two separate occasions, and he still remained fully conscious and was capable of fighting back.

Over and above this he has Wolverine's regeneration, which makes him pretty ridiculous overall. And the Fire Shield. So yeah, it'll be hard to even deal damage to him, and even then he can recover in an instant. If he takes too much damage, he can just restore all his wounds with Restore materia (cannot regrow limbs).

Reflexes / Speed - Without any enhancements, Cloud is well above a bullet timer. He spent all of Advent Children handling 2 characters spamming Haste (which allowed them to cross distances of 20+ meters in the blink of an eye) with only tanking a few punches out of all their fights. He has only been shot twice in all of FF7 history (by the same guy), and one was at point blank range while he was weakened and fighting 6+ people simultaneously, and the other was after he had been fighting for 30+ minutes and had been stabbed through the heart (as well as various other places in his body) and been bleeding for 3 or 4 minutes, and had no idea the person who shot him was even still alive, and had his back turned while reminiscing over what had just happened....

However, in every other instance he was shown to easily deflect bullets while simultaneously handling two or more opponents simultaneously.

This was him in his base form without any enhancements. For this battle he has both bullet speed and haste (to double his speed). Bullets are a non-factor for Cloud normally, and they are even more of a non-factor now.

Levitation/Flight - Cloud was able to move at speeds faster than he could walk in his first appearance using Levitation. It was never officially shown or stated he used Levitation after that, but he had several prolonged aerial fights with Sephiroth where it'd be more than fair to assume he was using levitation. Though I suppose he also used Levitation/Flight when he used Omnislash v6.

Liara - Cloud can blitz her in a moment, traveling at 2,000 meters per second (twice as fast as a bullet), and the ability to pull out fire blasts and lightning blasts before she even knows he's there would put her down almost instantly, it's doubtful she could even see him to perform her biotics.

Gorgon - Gorgon can't even block one of Cloud's attacks. Plain and simply, his wrists can't handle the force Cloud can put out with his strikes. Cloud is also overwhelmingly faster, more versatile, and Gorgon would have to fight Cloud blindfolded (which Gorgon can do), because that Fushion sword is so reflective that catching a glimpse of his own gaze is actually quite likely.

Alita - Alita at base is probably faster, but with haste Cloud can easily surpass her, and by no small margin. Doubling his speed is no small increase. Also, she can't block his attacks, at his speed and striking power, they would rip through her body, and if she blocked him with a sword (assuming her wrists can handle the force behind his attacks), unless the sword absorbs the full vibration of the attack it would break her wrist or bones. He can also fling her away with his final wind attack, or use Climhazzard to cut through her.

Nero - Cloud again, has speed to his advantage here. And the same factors as with Alita.

Ogami Rei

Striking Power - He can incinerate nearly anything with a touch. Reduce steel and skin to ash within seconds, and once touched there is no stopping his flame, and that's just with his blue flame. With Mammon, he can incinerate U-HAUL Truck sized balls of steel with no problem, and in an instant.

His only drawback is there is no concussive force behind his attacks, it's all heat based.

Durability - He can tank shots that shatter several feet of concrete in an instant, without any harm to his body. He's been crushed beneath over a dozen tons of steel (as shown in one of my previous scans) with only sustaining mild injure. He's blocked I-Beams being thrown like bullets with his arms alone, and only been mildly damaged. He's tanked slash attack capable of cutting down trees with only sustaining a few deep wounds.

At ground zero he tanked the vibration effect of an attack that was threatening to collapse a school without sustaining injury.

Speed/Reflexes - Back when Ogami could only produce flame out of his left hand, he was more than capable of incinerating bullets before they touched him using only his left hand to block them (at point blank rnage), while simultaneously blocking and fighting multiple opponents.

Since then he's proven he can easily handle mach level speedsters (Mach 1), blocking their attacks with no effort. Between easily blocking/deflecting bullets, as well as dodging them, and handling a Mach 1 speedster with easy, I'd say his speed and reflexes are pretty solid.

Levitation - I only gave him this in case I come across any flyers that he would need it against. Your team doesn't have many, so it's not really an issue here.

Power Cancellation - Probably his most useful ability here. It can be used to negate Liara's attacks, as well as protect any nearby team members.

Range - He can use several of his attacks from 20-30 meters away and they cover a huge area. Though those attacks aren't as hot as his Blue Flame, they can still melt steel.

AoE - The Blue Flame can extend all around his body if he needs it to, this would make him pretty deadly against most power users.

Liara - He is the perfect person to fight her, as he can negate her powers, and incinerate her if needed. She's also not protected against him affecting her mind/soul with his blue flame.

Alita - With the speed form her perk, she can get up to him, but it'd be dangerous. If that Blue Flame catches her, she's going to be incinerated. Her bullets and traps are the best thing to use against him, but even then that's iffy.

Gorgon - He'd incinerate Gorgon before he got a chance to strike him, the two are about equal in terms of speed, except Ogami can blanket a large area and incinerate Gorgon in an instant, something he can't regenerate from. He can also negate the stone gaze entirely with his power negation.

Nero - Nero also has to get near Ogami to hurt him, which is the biggest issue thus far. Though Nero seems extremely fast, it's not outside of Ogami's reflexes, and AoE is a great way to handle an opponent with superior speed, something Ogami has in strides.

Strategy

You seem to be under the impression that the fly/shoot tactic was my clearcut strategy. It's not, I was just stating one of the many strategies my team can take.

This is my official strategy.

45 Minutes Prep

  • Gromph will erect flame barriers on my team (just as the battle starts), as well as set up a contingency spell (with the rest of his prep time). He will also give his brooch and give Ogami the command word on how to use it, as well as set up a link between my characters to communicate with each other over any distance. All of these are pretty easy for someone of his level to do, and they will literally only take about 2 minutes per task.
  • Gromph will also give himself perfect precognition just before the fight starts. He can also Gaze Screen my entire party, which would give them massive resistance vs. gaze attacks.
  • Maka will use her noise cancellation and will be in charge of tracking/calling for my team.
  • Ogami will just get ready, and he will know how to use the brooch, which will be nice.
  • Cloud also just prepares his stuff, and gives his potions to Ogami, just in case, as well as one Ether

In a team vs. team battle, it's best to avoid set in stone strategies, at least as far as I'm concerned. Each member has a defined role.

Maka can call targets, and warn against attacks, as well as negate attacks and provide resistance. With her speed boost, and her durability, she can cover extreme distances and handle herself as well as confront people head on without much worry.

Gromph is a ranged support character, and he has limitless versatility. He can blanket areas in AoE attacks and throw out homing attacks. Him vs. one or two of your characters alone would be trouble for him. But the fact is your team can't afford to focus exclusively on him, and as a result they are vulnerable to his attacks. If they take their eyes off him for 1/2 a second they could be too late for a fireball about to hit him. He's constantly gesturing and waving spell components for any one of 100 different effects, so your team has no way of knowing what's coming or what's not coming, and if he blankets himself in darkness there'll be no telling when something is being shot at them.

Taking their eyes off him could result in complete disintegration, or being caught in a huge AoE explosion, or suddenly being confronted by a wall of force that's 20 feet high and extends 30 feet in both directions (invisible wall of force, no indication it's even there...).

Cloud is my striker. He can tank near anything, has godly speed, durability, and reflexes, as well as limitless striking power. He has lightning and fire to supplement his attacks, as well as Restore to heal wounds on other people or himself, and haste to double his speed. His limit breakers give him a huge variety of options and methods of affecting people.

Ogami has a set of powers that makes him hard to confront, both ranged and melee. He is medium distance, not a sniper, but his reflexes, and the heat of his attacks can incinerate bullets upon contact. He can cancel powers, and he's got an attack that allows him to affect someone's mind as well as body. He's got a great level of survivability.

Intelligence and Tacticians -

My team is filled with master tacticians and genius's in intelligence.

Maka is great at coordinating and rallying a team. Her soul perception is a huge help here, and she knows how to use it. She's also brilliant. Top of her class, constantly studying, researching, and striving to become better.

Gromph views allies as disposable...however, his presence in a losing war turned the tides of a battle through superior tactics, ability, and the ability to manipulate opponents as well as allies, and predicting their actions (not via magic btw). Not to mention he's a genius, and a diviner (someone who has specialized in using magic to obtain knowledge).

Cloud Strife is a very good tactician. His situational awareness is what makes him a huge asset to this team. Tracking everyone's location at all times, fully aware of everything that was going on around him. He's also a talented mechanic, and very intelligent. Building Fenrir requires more than just basic mechanical prowess, to make the fastest bike, and make it capable of holding the 6 pieces of his sword by expanding shelves/compartments requires more than just a "knack", it requires extensive knowledge. He also is technologically adept.

Ogami Rei again, extremely smart and talented. He is capable of manipulating his opponents by using his powers without them knowing. He often uses fear, and when he can't use fear he uses cunning to win his fights.

Taunting -

Hasn't really worked on Cloud, and is doubtful Gorgon can do much to him.

Gromph views anyone who isn't drow as inferior and not worth his opinion anyway. He will use people to his advantage, but that's about it.

Maka....maybe, but he'd have to target her specifically.

Ogami. He is set in stone in his convictions, nobody is swaying him or getting the jump on him.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#30 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

This'll be my last response since voting is today. Feel free to get the final word. Clarifying somethings:

Precognition - This is better than Spider Man's Spidey Sense. Spidey Sense kicks in moments before a danger comes and doesn't really warn him what's going to happen, he just sort of has to "figure it out". Gromph on the other hand, his precognition was capable of alerting him something was about to happen seconds before it happened. Considering the Shadow Walk Nimor uses is instant, him being able to block it is a huge advantage here.
Durability - Even his base durability is pretty ridiculous, at least where he's armored. I've already proven that attack which sliced through a 4 armed obsidian statue (man sized ) and a stone table like they were nothing only made it deep enough to make a "deep wound" in his body after going through his armor. If he had his fire shield up, it's doubtful they would have made it to his skin, considering at best they made it halfway to his bone wherever they struck (as he still had use of his arms, they clearly didn't sever any tendons or break any bones, so they couldn't have made it too deep).
Flight - Flight is always a nice advantage, in any situation.
Contingency Spell - If the conditions for this spell are met, it will automatically activate a specific spell. In this case it would be teleport (the only one I've seen Gromph actually put on himself, I've seen other casters do more powerful spells, but I think based on past events this is the most probable one for him). He would teleport to a location he picked under the event the conditions are met, which for him would be under the event he is hit near a vital point. This was similar to the condition he set up in the books, I can look it up if you'd like.
Assaults - Your team might be fast enough to dodge the attacks, but a lot of his attacks have pretty dang good AoE, shoot out multiple projectiles, or seek out their target. To assume your team can easily dodge his attacks when they are up against an armada of other attacks, especially when a lot of these are AoE seems ridiculous.
Liara - She has to see him to do her stasis and attacks? All drow have the innate ability to conjure a 20 foot sphere of darkness around themselves that doesn't affect them. I can dig up several scans proving so if you'd like. He can conjure this instantly, and with his precognition, if he knows she's about to use stasis on him (and he knows how her powers work because of the conditions of this battle), he can simply erect a blanket of darkness
Alita - Alita will be pretty easy to see, he can faerie fire her, another innate drow ability. It'll blanket her body in blue fire. This will not obscure her vision, or harm her in any way, as it doesn't produce heat. It'll simply make her stick out like a sore thumb, which will make dodging her attacks a hundred times easier, as she'll be a big blue impossible to miss person who's movements are easy to track because they are illuminated. Against her attacks, because of his precognition again, he can defend himself with a wide variety of ways. Invisible force walls to obscure the path of bullets before they are even fired, becoming ethereal long enough so that she can't hit him, etc. etc.
Gorgon - Gorgon has no means of harming Gromph, so he's a non-factor.
Nero - Against Nero he has his fire shield, his precognition (at least for the first while of the battle), his flight, his insane durability with his armor, over and above this he has his contingency spell. I think Nero would be the toughest person for him, considering his perk.

I actually never said my team easily dodges Gromph, I even identified Gromph as a significant threat. I said I dealt with Gromph by attacking him with attacks he can't react to or can't block as he severely lacks reaction feats (obviously due to being from fantasy lore, but that's how it goes). So the Force Wall to block shots seems very suspect in turn

You do not have to see a target to use a biotic effect on it. Cerberus troops quite frequently use smoke screens that completely obscure vision and targetted and non targetted biotics still work. You would have to guess where your opponent is, but Biotic's have generous range and most have AoE. Sight is her range, but biotics are perfectly usable through smoke screens/illusions.

Alita's dodging is not only incredible it is both enhanced by the perk and her Chi, which you haven't addressed a counter for(edit: you stated Maka could counter it and I refute it later in the post). Making her stand out is fine, I never said she was hiding, just shooting you guys till you get close. You also never gave me a real answer against Alita's martial art other than a very questionable idea that her punches wouldn't work against your flame shield. You have not told me how he deals with the drone swarm aside from maybe the precog (which...still doesn't sound all that different from spider sense, even in your re explanation)

I think you vastly underestimate Netero's striking speed and power, but that's something the voters will have to decide on. I greatly contest the fact that anyone on your team can take multiple serious hits from Netero without going down for significant amounts of time, if not entirely. Flight doesn't affect Netero (as I said, he can move his construct to attack people at great distance and it's literally 30+ meters tall with extendo arms). I agree, Gorgon can't do much against fliers except look at them to kill them if they get even slightly lax(or 50% kill them through the Gaze Shield?I dunno) and use his Telepathy to know every strategy you have...so he's not a non-factor.

Maka Albarn
Striking Power - She can already cut through steel constructs with a single swing of her weapon. The Witch Hunter alone moved through several feet of concrete without any loss of speed, and it was only able to leave a scratch in one of her opponents bodies. However, her demon hunter was able to rip through that guy's entire body, plus cut through his attack (which showed to resist it) in a single swing, so several times more powerful. Her base weapon can cut through bullet proof bodies without any issues. However, she has enhanced speed because of the perk, plus the extra 2 tons of strength. So realistically she should be able to rip through titanium like butter if she's 20 times faster than normal.
Durability - She can tank slashing attacks that rip up concrete floors without any loss in speed. Over and above this she's got Wolverine's healing factor because of the perk. She'll be immune to piercing/slashing attacks because of her black blood dress, and only be susceptible to melee attacks. But she also tanked a 1.5 ton ball of ice striking her in the face, and was only mildly stunned. This was without her weapon, which would amplify her defense.
Speed/Reflex - Maka can already block machine gun fire, and handle 10 projectiles richochetting around her without too much issue. With this perk she has bullet speed, that is, 1,000m/s speed. It's doubtful many people can really tag her, as this would amplify her speed by over 20-30 times where it normally is (at least).
Noise Cancelling - You have one character who uses her chi and resonates chi.... I mean, that is the exact thing this protects against.....to the letter. Over and above this, she was able to KO a character by manipulating their soul with a soul attack. She reverberates these sorts of attacks back against the user, as I already proved in her fight with Arachne (Spider Lady). Then again against Giriko (chain saw guy), but she was able to affect his soul directly. However, she obviously wasn't going all out because she didn't create the Black Blood Dress nor did they show any signs of strain. Which makes sense because the first feat (against Arachne) was when Soul Eater (her weapon) was on a fraction of his current power, since his upgrade he can perform Noise Cancellation on his own.
In a universe where all powers are neutral and work (aka, where the Force works in the same universe as the Weave, where Jedi Mind Tricks work on the non-force attuned, where a robot immune to Warp would also be immune to psychokinetic attacks, etc. etc.), her noise cancelling should work on anyone who has a soul. In Soul Eater (manga), one of her abilities is to perceive souls and soul wavelengths (which every soul puts out). Her weapon, Soul Eater, can then resonate a frequency to affect said souls across a large medium. He was able to affect hundreds if not thousands of souls in order to negate the effects of Arachne's soul webs, and went so far as to bank off of her own attack by matching frequencies and widening his own attack.
Flight - Obviously an advantage, she flew several hundred miles in the span of a couple hours, so she can do it pretty fast too. With the perk she should be able to do this even faster.
Liara - Dunno how Liara would fair against her noise cancelling. We'll let the voters decide, but Liara could be the most dangerous opponent for Maka because of Stasis. However, Ogami can also free Maka if he's nearby, and being in Stasis wouldn't actually stop Maka's Noise Cancelling ability, as that can be done even if she's paralyzed.
Gorgon - Again, not much of a factor. She knows not to look him in the eyes, and even if she does, Ogami can save her, and she's only got a 50% chance that his gaze will even work.
Alita - Alita should be the most susceptible to Noise Cancellation, her attacks actually match the definition of what Noise Cancellation banks off of. With Maka's speed, those bullets would be incapable of harming her, as the only spot she's susceptible to them is her face, and she can already block machine gun fire at base speed, being 20x faster would make blocking them effortless. In a melee fight, Alita can't use her chi attack because of Maka's ability.
Nero - Nero is also dangerous, because of blunt force attacks. However, Maka isn't exactly weak against these, and she has bullet speed, and extreme regeneration to make her more than capable of handling blunt force attacks.

Chi is not what Alita uses with Panzer Kunster. Chi is entirely inoffensive, you can't turn it against someone. It's an enhanced sense of your surroundings and it reveals the weakness in an opponent's defenses, both physical and skill based. It is a skill that is learned, it is not synonymous with spirit or soul or anything similar (she was taught it while playing a dangerous sport with a guy who was a master at it) -- as a matter of fact, remote controlled robot bodies have used Chi (In my scans showing her Chi, you will see a giant robot saying her Chi is impressive, but not as good as his. He has neither a soul nor a brain. Chi in battle angel alita has nothing to do with spirit or soul, despite its name). I do not blame you for this misconception but I could track down and tell you the whole story behind Den, the autonomous soulless robot who has Chi if you need clarification.

Panzer Kunst is a martial art meant for a cyborg body where your punch delivers a rapid, controlled vibration through a strike to destroy an opponent through their armor or cyborg durability and instantly destroy their vitals. She hits you, or your armor, or your weapon, and the vibration goes through and reachs your brain and heart. It has been countered by people who can counter the vibration (other panzer kunst users, anti vibration gear meant to counter panzer kunst, ranged ability to keep her out of melee) or those who don't have fleshy brains (pure robots, brain chips, presumably spirits or whatever wouldn't be affected either) or just not getting hit by her.

I'd argue noise cancelling shouldn't affect Liara as her powers are clearly not soul based, it's tech and biology based. I don't see how Rei can remove a mass effect field. The energy field stasis itself causes is not genetic, just the usage of the power.

The chimera king could not break Netero's construct and he's busted the durability of people who are far beyond steel level (Netero himself has greater than steel durability as I stated in my rundown with his Ken). Wolverine's regen has been countered significantly by both strong brute force and rapid brute force, of which Netero is a master. I won't counter her ability to dodge, especially with the perk, but it is very very hard to avoid so many hands attacking so rapidly.

You have stated no response to my drones here, either. I'm feeling like you outright ignored my setup and just assume your guys stroll up and unload their skills on me.

Cloud Strife
Striking Power - Realistically, he's the top dog in this match in this category. At his normal speeds, at best Cloud can be said to travel 100 meters per second, maybe a 150 meters per second (you'll see why I'm assuming these numbers later). A single attack from him cuts through several meters of steel without slowing his momentum at all. Blocking an attack form him created a 1 foot deep, and at least 4 foot wide crater in a steel structure. With his perk, Cloud moves at least 6 times faster, and has a bonus 2 tons of strength added to his own. This would amplify his cutting power by at least three to four times it's normal quantities. Over and above this he can use haste to double his speed for a short period of time, making him 12 times faster than his normal quantities.
Over and above this he has shown that he can shove an opponent through several feet of steel and concrete with a single push.
Then stacked on top of this he has his limit breaks, which I've shown already, but to just to reiterate:
If you go back through the videos I've posted, all of these are shown at one point.
Limit Breaks - For unexplained reasons, Cloud can access several powers similar to the way Zack Fair accesses his Digital Mind Wave for a variety of effects, including:
  • Braver - Sends out a cone of attacks capable of ripping through steel
  • Cross-Slash - Stuns or paralyzes an opponent momentarily
  • Blade Beam - Sends out a powerful energy beam from his sword, capable of stopping a rolling Earth attack the size of a small hill.
  • Climmhazard - Amplifies his cutting power to an unknown degree, but allows him to cut through things that his attacks normally would have no effect on.
  • Finishing Touch - A powerful wind attack that can fling a normal sized person over a hundred meters with but a swing of his sword.
  • Omnislash - A fifteen strike combo, used when an opponent opens up a vulnerability in their defense or fighting style, mainly used as a counter-attack
  • Omnislash version 6 - A thirteen strike combo directly through a person's soul.
Durability - Cloud has tanked a bullet to the face and it left a small scratch on his forehead. These same bullets were capable of bouncing his Fushion Sword (the main piece) in the air like a toy, so they were several times more powerful than a normal bullet. Over and above this he's been thrown through steel structures without sustaining any damage, and was flung through a plasma ball that was shown to be fully capable of shattering and melting through large steel structures. So he's also extremely resistant to heat.
He was shot through the chest once by the same guy who shot him in the forehead, which seemed inconsistent, but it shot him in roughly the same area where he had been stabbed by Sephiroth moments ago, which seems about right. The reason I bring this up is because there is another character similar but weaker to Cloud who was shot point blank in the face and also only wound up with a bloodied scalp, and was not KO'd or killed (well he died later, but he took on a small army of soldiers). So it's more than consistent to say his durability against bullets is pretty high, as well as against blunt force.
He also has immense pain resistance, as he was stabbed by Sephiroth through the chest on two separate occasions, and he still remained fully conscious and was capable of fighting back.
Over and above this he has Wolverine's regeneration, which makes him pretty ridiculous overall. And the Fire Shield. So yeah, it'll be hard to even deal damage to him, and even then he can recover in an instant. If he takes too much damage, he can just restore all his wounds with Restore materia (cannot regrow limbs).
Reflexes / Speed - Without any enhancements, Cloud is well above a bullet timer. He spent all of Advent Children handling 2 characters spamming Haste (which allowed them to cross distances of 20+ meters in the blink of an eye) with only tanking a few punches out of all their fights. He has only been shot twice in all of FF7 history (by the same guy), and one was at point blank range while he was weakened and fighting 6+ people simultaneously, and the other was after he had been fighting for 30+ minutes and had been stabbed through the heart (as well as various other places in his body) and been bleeding for 3 or 4 minutes, and had no idea the person who shot him was even still alive, and had his back turned while reminiscing over what had just happened....
However, in every other instance he was shown to easily deflect bullets while simultaneously handling two or more opponents simultaneously.
This was him in his base form without any enhancements. For this battle he has both bullet speed and haste (to double his speed). Bullets are a non-factor for Cloud normally, and they are even more of a non-factor now.
Levitation/Flight - Cloud was able to move at speeds faster than he could walk in his first appearance using Levitation. It was never officially shown or stated he used Levitation after that, but he had several prolonged aerial fights with Sephiroth where it'd be more than fair to assume he was using levitation. Though I suppose he also used Levitation/Flight when he used Omnislash v6.
Liara - Cloud can blitz her in a moment, traveling at 2,000 meters per second (twice as fast as a bullet), and the ability to pull out fire blasts and lightning blasts before she even knows he's there would put her down almost instantly, it's doubtful she could even see him to perform her biotics.
Gorgon - Gorgon can't even block one of Cloud's attacks. Plain and simply, his wrists can't handle the force Cloud can put out with his strikes. Cloud is also overwhelmingly faster, more versatile, and Gorgon would have to fight Cloud blindfolded (which Gorgon can do), because that Fushion sword is so reflective that catching a glimpse of his own gaze is actually quite likely.
Alita - Alita at base is probably faster, but with haste Cloud can easily surpass her, and by no small margin. Doubling his speed is no small increase. Also, she can't block his attacks, at his speed and striking power, they would rip through her body, and if she blocked him with a sword (assuming her wrists can handle the force behind his attacks), unless the sword absorbs the full vibration of the attack it would break her wrist or bones. He can also fling her away with his final wind attack, or use Climhazzard to cut through her.
Nero - Cloud again, has speed to his advantage here. And the same factors as with Alita.

I think you're reaching on his durability vs bullets here. The shot seemed to do significant damage to him (though non lethal) so if he had been stabbed exactly the same way and that's why the bullet went through...wouldn't the stab have been just as effective? I contest you're misinterpreting the bullet grazing his face rather than him tanking it. I won't argue his pain resistance, I just think he's susceptible to getting shot.

You cannot exceed your speed beyond the spider-man limit stated in the draft thread with Haste, Cadence specifically named Haste when he made this rule. If he's doubling his speed, he's doubling his speed to the level where he's either similar or slightly faster than Alita (I can argue Alita has very similar combat speed to spiderman). They both have the perk, they're of similar speed and I believe Alita's combat style is much, much better in a fight between regenerators if this ever became a cloud vs alita melee fight. Cloud can't blitz that fast because he can't be as fast as a bullet because that breaks the rules of the competition. I have shown you scans of Liara having point blank bullet dodging feats, he couldn't blitz her faster than she could react and he has no counter to her biotics, as they are as quick as she can think and point. You're greatly misrepresenting how fast you are allowed to be.

I agree Cloud has Gorgon greatly oustated since I wasn't tossing perks on him. Gorgon would have to occupy cloud and dodge with his telepathy until he gets some help from Liara, which would be pretty easy.

Against Netero: Even if Cloud was as fast as you claim (and unless I'm misunderstanding it, he can't be. Spiderman isn't 1,000 meters per second in a blitz so you can't be 2,000meters per second in a blitz by tourney rules) Netero would fend him off quite successfully. I specifically showed you him countering the blitz of someone named Neferpitou in my last post who is even faster than your statement of Cloud's current speed(several miles in a second). I think anyone who actually saw my scans would realize there's no way Cloud could blitz Netero or past Netero easily as his defense is both arguably invisible and his reaction time and response time is more than enough.

You once again pay no mention of my drones here, either in direct combat or how you so easily breach my perimeter with no damage.

Ogami Rei
Striking Power - He can incinerate nearly anything with a touch. Reduce steel and skin to ash within seconds, and once touched there is no stopping his flame, and that's just with his blue flame. With Mammon, he can incinerate U-HAUL Truck sized balls of steel with no problem, and in an instant.
His only drawback is there is no concussive force behind his attacks, it's all heat based.
Durability - He can tank shots that shatter several feet of concrete in an instant, without any harm to his body. He's been crushed beneath over a dozen tons of steel (as shown in one of my previous scans) with only sustaining mild injure. He's blocked I-Beams being thrown like bullets with his arms alone, and only been mildly damaged. He's tanked slash attack capable of cutting down trees with only sustaining a few deep wounds.
At ground zero he tanked the vibration effect of an attack that was threatening to collapse a school without sustaining injury.
Speed/Reflexes - Back when Ogami could only produce flame out of his left hand, he was more than capable of incinerating bullets before they touched him using only his left hand to block them (at point blank rnage), while simultaneously blocking and fighting multiple opponents.
Since then he's proven he can easily handle mach level speedsters (Mach 1), blocking their attacks with no effort. Between easily blocking/deflecting bullets, as well as dodging them, and handling a Mach 1 speedster with easy, I'd say his speed and reflexes are pretty solid.
Levitation - I only gave him this in case I come across any flyers that he would need it against. Your team doesn't have many, so it's not really an issue here.
Power Cancellation - Probably his most useful ability here. It can be used to negate Liara's attacks, as well as protect any nearby team members.
Range - He can use several of his attacks from 20-30 meters away and they cover a huge area. Though those attacks aren't as hot as his Blue Flame, they can still melt steel.
AoE - The Blue Flame can extend all around his body if he needs it to, this would make him pretty deadly against most power users.
Liara - He is the perfect person to fight her, as he can negate her powers, and incinerate her if needed. She's also not protected against him affecting her mind/soul with his blue flame.
Alita - With the speed form her perk, she can get up to him, but it'd be dangerous. If that Blue Flame catches her, she's going to be incinerated. Her bullets and traps are the best thing to use against him, but even then that's iffy.
Gorgon - He'd incinerate Gorgon before he got a chance to strike him, the two are about equal in terms of speed, except Ogami can blanket a large area and incinerate Gorgon in an instant, something he can't regenerate from. He can also negate the stone gaze entirely with his power negation.
Nero - Nero also has to get near Ogami to hurt him, which is the biggest issue thus far. Though Nero seems extremely fast, it's not outside of Ogami's reflexes, and AoE is a great way to handle an opponent with superior speed, something Ogami has in strides.

His durability seems easily phased by my team, to be honest.

His power cancellation has suspect range (never shown more than 15 feet) and he gets taken down well before he ever enters that range by any biotic attack, so he's not just walking up to Liara and going "no more powers for you" even IF he is capable of stopping her powers the way he does people in his series (for voters to decide, as Cadence said)

His range is less than Liara's, Netero's, and Alita's. Significantly.

Alita has no bullet traps, what are you talking about? She has plasma, molecularly sharp wire, and small building level explosion traps, but no bullet traps...Atleast you finally acknowledge that she has drones, despite never stating a counter for having plasma blow up in your face.

Uh...if Ogami turns to stone, he's not cancelling it. He's just dead.

WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING NETERO HAS LESS RANGE? I understood you the first time and I made extreme effort to correct you so you could respond to it, but you keep insisting he has limited range and I have outright proven that to be wrong. Netero has more range than Ogami if his construct is behind Netero himself by your own admission. You said Ogami is 20-30, and Netero's construct leans and extends its arms to attack which is well over 50 meters. His Ichi no Te, which I specifically showed you, nailed Mereum from well over 30 meters away. He can also move it behind you, as I demonstrated plainly, by atleast 30+ meters, which is beyond Ogami's range by your own statement. I have legitimately gotten very frustrated by your statement that Netero's range is his downfall here, because it is an outright fabrication.

Drones, again, etc. Ogami's busy shooting fire and gets a huge explosion to the back of the head or a plasma ball that encompasses his whole body.

Strategy
You seem to be under the impression that the fly/shoot tactic was my clearcut strategy. It's not, I was just stating one of the many strategies my team can take.
This is my official strategy.
45 Minutes Prep
  • Gromph will erect flame barriers on my team (just as the battle starts), as well as set up a contingency spell (with the rest of his prep time). He will also give his brooch and give Ogami the command word on how to use it, as well as set up a link between my characters to communicate with each other over any distance. All of these are pretty easy for someone of his level to do, and they will literally only take about 2 minutes per task.
  • Gromph will also give himself perfect precognition just before the fight starts. He can also Gaze Screen my entire party, which would give them massive resistance vs. gaze attacks.
  • Maka will use her noise cancellation and will be in charge of tracking/calling for my team.
  • Ogami will just get ready, and he will know how to use the brooch, which will be nice.
  • Cloud also just prepares his stuff, and gives his potions to Ogami, just in case, as well as one Ether
In a team vs. team battle, it's best to avoid set in stone strategies, at least as far as I'm concerned. Each member has a defined role.
Maka can call targets, and warn against attacks, as well as negate attacks and provide resistance. With her speed boost, and her durability, she can cover extreme distances and handle herself as well as confront people head on without much worry.
Gromph is a ranged support character, and he has limitless versatility. He can blanket areas in AoE attacks and throw out homing attacks. Him vs. one or two of your characters alone would be trouble for him. But the fact is your team can't afford to focus exclusively on him, and as a result they are vulnerable to his attacks. If they take their eyes off him for 1/2 a second they could be too late for a fireball about to hit him. He's constantly gesturing and waving spell components for any one of 100 different effects, so your team has no way of knowing what's coming or what's not coming, and if he blankets himself in darkness there'll be no telling when something is being shot at them.
Taking their eyes off him could result in complete disintegration, or being caught in a huge AoE explosion, or suddenly being confronted by a wall of force that's 20 feet high and extends 30 feet in both directions (invisible wall of force, no indication it's even there...).
Cloud is my striker. He can tank near anything, has godly speed, durability, and reflexes, as well as limitless striking power. He has lightning and fire to supplement his attacks, as well as Restore to heal wounds on other people or himself, and haste to double his speed. His limit breakers give him a huge variety of options and methods of affecting people.
Ogami has a set of powers that makes him hard to confront, both ranged and melee. He is medium distance, not a sniper, but his reflexes, and the heat of his attacks can incinerate bullets upon contact. He can cancel powers, and he's got an attack that allows him to affect someone's mind as well as body. He's got a great level of survivability.
Intelligence and Tacticians -
My team is filled with master tacticians and genius's in intelligence.
Maka is great at coordinating and rallying a team. Her soul perception is a huge help here, and she knows how to use it. She's also brilliant. Top of her class, constantly studying, researching, and striving to become better.
Gromph views allies as disposable...however, his presence in a losing war turned the tides of a battle through superior tactics, ability, and the ability to manipulate opponents as well as allies, and predicting their actions (not via magic btw). Not to mention he's a genius, and a diviner (someone who has specialized in using magic to obtain knowledge).
Cloud Strife is a very good tactician. His situational awareness is what makes him a huge asset to this team. Tracking everyone's location at all times, fully aware of everything that was going on around him. He's also a talented mechanic, and very intelligent. Building Fenrir requires more than just basic mechanical prowess, to make the fastest bike, and make it capable of holding the 6 pieces of his sword by expanding shelves/compartments requires more than just a "knack", it requires extensive knowledge. He also is technologically adept.
Ogami Rei again, extremely smart and talented. He is capable of manipulating his opponents by using his powers without them knowing. He often uses fear, and when he can't use fear he uses cunning to win his fights.
Taunting -
Hasn't really worked on Cloud, and is doubtful Gorgon can do much to him.
Gromph views anyone who isn't drow as inferior and not worth his opinion anyway. He will use people to his advantage, but that's about it.
Maka....maybe, but he'd have to target her specifically.
Ogami. He is set in stone in his convictions, nobody is swaying him or getting the jump on him.

Liara is not quite as versatile as Gromph, but as my effective ranged support character, I think she has a more direct impact on the fight. You seemed to be grasping for ways to stop her biotics (pointing out questionable power cancelling abilities with even more questionable range), any of which themselves would be countered by a quick biotic push or stasis, so they're hardly actual counters. Stasis + a plasma drone and arachno or 5 to the face after it drops (and remember, I showed you stasis, after stasis falls your character instantly falls to the ground, stunned and vulnerable) is my most hard to deal with combo and would require your team having to cover themselves from drones or try to blitz past Netero, Alita, and Gorgon, which would be very hard with Netero's defenses and Gorgon's ability to instantly know your strategy. I feel like Liara's much more direct and potent and I've made a more conscious effort to work as a team (besides just saying "they're working as a team") and defend her.

Alita is my sniper, zone controller, scout and my striker -- only the sniping and striking interact at a detriment, as her scouting and zone control is done through drones and vehicles and only benefit her combat. One of the greatest benefits of Alita with the regen perk is she has destroyed her body massively several times to deal a lethal panzer kunst blow before -- even with regen, I'm not sure how willing your characters are to throw their bodies away. She counters anyone with a big metal weapon with a single palm strike, causing the vibration to wreck them from the inside out, so maka and cloud would be unwise to fight her, as you'd have to contest they're so much more skilled than her that they'd dominate her and never allow her a single hit, or they lose their brains to Hertza Haeon. I will contend that her skill, speed, Chi and the Perk makes her a very intriguing and hard to beat match for your two melee fighters who have giant metal weapons to abuse. I'd love to see Cloud, even with the wolverine regen, tank having his head blown up. Durable as he may be, his brain is still a squishy brain.

I agree that Ogami is probably very dangerous to go directly into melee against with his level of flame projection. I just don't see how he deals with biotics, warp bullets, or Netero with anything resembling ease.

Gorgon serves a similar purpose to Maka -- his telepathy actually being even better for calling enemy position and strategy than her sensing powers, as you have no stated mind reading defense(not a telepathic attack, don't bring that up again) on anyone besides maybe Gromph (I haven't seen a feat, but he seems like the kind of guy with magic telepathy defenses of some kind :P). You seem to have Maka kind of stuck not engaging which is hardly something Gorgon would do. At worst he's fodder to use his regen and telepathy as a diversion while Liara disables your team one by one, at best he's a fighter whose skill I'd put on par with anyone's and an instant kill attack. Seriously, I know you said Cloud had something reflective, why can't he just look at Rei when he goes to launch one of his fire attacks? It's not so easy to dismiss his stone glare, even if you've got a magic defense against it, 50% of dead is a nasty hit.

About being skilled tacticians, I mean, Gorgon's an outright super genius tactician by anyone's merit, Netero is the most skilled person revealed in his universe so far, Alita's go Chi and absurd information and omni directional attacking abilities and Liara's got lots of military and group experience. I don't think either of us could go "I win because my team is tactical!" so it seems kind of bloviating to list it as it's kind of given. Frankly, their tactical ability is pointless as we're the ones debating how they use their abilities, lol.

The taunting wasn't meant as a strategy, I was just pointing out how he's capable of reading any and every thought from people with good tp resistance.

My prep was just to set up and enact the strategy, maybe for Alita to make sure she had the right drone and ammo combination on her and Mobile Unit, whatevs. The prep is mostly there so my team knows their roles and what we planned to do on the map. I still never really...knew how you just get into your 20-30 meter range so easily. You waved off being sniped and having hundreds of drones attacking you pretty non chalantly, and I think that'd be a mistake.

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#31 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

Open For VOTES!

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#32 Posted by boschePG (6214 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: @Dredeuced: @Floopay: This was the longest battle I have ever seen. Good job guys. I give slight edge to Floopay with they Cloud Gorgon argument

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#33 Edited by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:@CadenceV2:

The perk itself states it can and will put the players above the Spider Man limit

The Venom, Banshee, and Red Eye Drug. Gain Wolverine's Healing Factor and Senses. Gain Bane's strength added onto yours. Gain Bullet Speed onto your own. The strength and Speed Benefit WILL Legally put you past the set stats!As In you will be stronger and Faster than the limits if your character is already at the limit.

Gromph Baenre

Question

What are Liara's defense against magic? Because if Gromph knows she's going to stasis, then he can simply Finger of Death her. With no magical defenses, this should strike home, it ignores armor and requires magical shielding.

Finger of Death

Sorry for the quality, I have massive Carpal Tunnel and my scanner doesn't work so I have to take pictures and email them to myself with my phone.

He points out a finger of death ray spell, and it seeks it's targets chest and attempts to kill them. Nimor has an item that lets him rebound certain spells back at their caster, so it launches back at Gromph in this instance.

Disintegration

Gromph can also disintegrate with a ray spell similar to finger of death, it will seek it's target and disintegrate them

Telekinesis

Gromph can overpower other individuals with a spell that allows command of a force based upon his will, and his will is unbreakable. He uses this on a Giant Troll, which can push between 1.25 and 2.5 tons depending on it's strength. This one is described as giant, so I'd think it's in the higher end of things.

Invisibility

Can become completely invisible for several hours, or a full day if he'd like.

Also, at the top of the first scan you can see his contingency spell, in case you were curious as to how that worked. He can make it very specific if he'd like, as you can see.

Shadow Form

Can become a living shadow. In this form he can't hear or smell. However, he can still cast, and my team can direct him where they need him if he were to choose this form. He can remain in it for hours.

Ogami Rei:

Gain, fast enough to easily burn away bullets with one hand, even from the beginning of the manga. As you can see, he doesn't need the constant burning of the flame, just a wave of his hand is enough to incinerate bullets, as the flame burns them away instantly (that's how hot it is)

Can use his blue flame to protect him from explosions. Again, he was able to do this when he could only produce flames out of his left hand, he can now do it out of his body when needed.

Considering that explosion took out a small cafe, I'd say it's more than reasonable to think it can fend off most of those drones.

Maka Albarn

She's dodged explosives before, and this was her first appearance.

With enhanced speed, I don't see why she couldn't dodge the drones, or simply just block them with her weapon.

Soul, without being wielded as a weapon, can deflect explosions

He was affected by Madness when he did this, but without being wielded he was able to send out powerful shockwaves of noise.

Cloud Strife

Cloud was thrown through steel walls, thick steel walls, on two separate occasions in the same fight, and it had no affect on him. He also was thrown through a ball of fire that was shown to be hot enough to melt steel. As far as concussive force and heat goes, I think he can handle some drones. As for being shot in the face:

1:35 - At exactly 1:35 you can see where the bullet is, clearly it deflected off his goggles and into his forehead, and it only knocked his head back slightly.

Loading Video...

It's not really inconsistent either, Zack Fair took bullets to the face from point blank range and stayed alive for quite awhile after, and he wasn't anywhere near Cloud in terms of enhancements.

(It saddens me to post this, because it's one of the saddest scenes in FF7)

5:45-6:00 - You can clearly see him (as it's being shown through his eyes), getting shot in the face, the gun is directed right at his line of vision

7:40-End - You can clearly see blood streaming across his face, but no bullet holes, though the rest of his body is riddled with bullet marks, which is understandable because he just took on an army by himself.

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As for him getting stabbed:

Sephiroth's attacks go through reinforced steel like butter, he was able to cut down that giant cannon with a sweep of his sword, and cut through pillars of steel with no loss of motion behind his attacks. There's no slight against his durability because he was stabbed by Sephiroth. Kadaj shot him not too long after that in about the same spot he was stabbed before, it also could have gone through his ribs and through soft flesh instead of contacting bone. Those seem like more likely scenarios than a straight shot through bone and through and through, as far as consistency is concerned at least.

Levitation/Flight

It's actually pretty fast, and with the speed perk and haste materia, he should be pretty fast at it, so if he decides to abandon Fenrir it wouldn't be too bad of a means of transportation

5:15-Etc - Flight/Levitation

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Cloud vs. Bahamut pt 1 and 2

2:45-3:20 - Cloud throws his sword with extreme expertise, then proceeds to lop through steel towers like they're nothing.

The Rest - The bullets fired by the guy in the red cloak (Vincent Valentine) can rip through reinforced steel like butter, but don't even kind of harm this thing. Same goes with Barrets shots. Over and above this, it's breath weapons are melting steel, blowing down steel structures, and leveling entire city blocks.

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0:00-0:15 - Cloud can't even pierce this thing's hide

0:15-0:35 - Cloud performs some more strikes to no avail, and then performs Cross Slash, which stuns and knocks the thing out of the sky.

2:15-2:50 - Flies through it's breath attack, something that was melting steel in earlier scenes, with no affect to his person.

2:50-End - Climhazzard. His sword rips through that thing's spine with zero effort when performing this limit break. Then falls a couple hundred meters and lands with no problem, because he's awesome :P

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Closing Argument:

Unfortunately it's up for voting already, and I didn't even get to post 1/3 of my feats yet :(

Gromph Baenre

Defensive Magic:

  • Shadow Form
  • Ethereal Form
  • Force Wall
  • Precognition
  • Fire Shield
  • Globe of Invulnerability
  • Counter Magic
  • Gaze Screen
  • Invisibility
  • Flight
  • Levitation
  • Dimensional Door
  • Teleportation
  • Contingency Spells
  • Darkness (10 foot radius)

Offensive Magic

  • Finger of Death
  • Disintegration
  • Fireball
  • Burning Hands
  • Melf's Minute Meteors
  • Telekinesis
  • Prismatic Spray (Death/Fire/Acid/Lightning/Fear/Petrify/BFR (disabled) in one spell that has a 21 meter range and is a cone 15 meters across)
  • Black Blade (perfectly thin, as described, as it is only 2 dimensional, which means it should literally cut through anything)
  • Homing/Seeking Daggers
  • Dispel Magic (if Nero's construct is magical by nature, it'd be in trouble, as would the Godkiller blade, this spell can shatter magical weapons, much the way it did with Nimor's weapon which left streaks of ice crystals in it's wake and froze wounds behind it's stab, as well as had magically enhanced cutting power).
  • Magical Fires
  • Faerie Fire
  • Bolts of Acid (melted an ogre in an instant)

Over and above this he has over a thousand years of experience behind him in handling a wide host of threats. He may not have dealt with cyborgs, but he's dealt with beings that can turn someone to stone with a touch, ones that can turn to stone with a gaze, demons (which infect madness with their presence), dragons, half-dragons, orcs, ogres, giants, trolls, undead of all sorts, illusionists, psionic mages, masters of all forms of combat, divine magic, arcane magic, necromancy, death touches, cold attacks, fire attacks, death attacks, sonic attacks, telepathic assaults, forced polymorphs, etc. etc.

At one point in the book he loses his eyesight, so he takes the eyes of a prisoner, has his rat familiar gnaw his eyes out while he's still conscious, and then uses magic to force the eyes to bond with his body.

He has a durability that allows him to survive attacks that rip through obsidian statues with ease, and survive at point blank a blast of fire and concussive force that destroys a bazaar (and later, when he has less magic gear, he survives one that destroys an entire building). Over and above this he has his regeneration and his extra magic defenses (Shadow Form, Globe of Invulnerability, Ethereal Form, Precognition, Fire Shield).

Maka Albarn

Defensive

She can negate psychic attacks, which though not useful against your team as much (at least eliminates the possibility of), which is nice.

She would have the black blood dress, making slashing/piercing useless against most of her body. Plus Soul is indestructible, so with him she can block other forms of attacks. She's already dodged and blocked explosions from short distances, and tanked concussive attacks that would shatter concrete easily.

She also has flight, which is a nice advantage.

Offensive:

Noise Cancellation is a devastating attack. Essentially, once Soul Eater can find someone's Soul Wavelength, he can push in his own sound and disable an entire person. This was able to cross the entirety of Baba Yaga Castle. It's both offensive and defensive.

Over and above this between Witch and Demon Hunter she can slash through near anything, at least within the tournaments durability limits. They both have a distance of at least 10-20 meters.

Cloud Strife

Defensive

Cloud has immense resistance to the elements. Especially heat, which is the only one presented against him really, so he should be fine here.

As far as concussive resistance, thrown over 100 meters through steel structures on multiple occasions, tanked blows from Loz which shattered steel pillars, took a bullet to the face, etc. etc.

With the perk he has regeneration, and even without that he has restore materia, which can close wounds.

Offensive

Cloud's limits have immense use here.

Paralyzation, limitless cutting power, attack directly at one's soul, the ability to throw an opponent with a wind attack, ranged blade beams, extreme counter attacks, steel ripping attacks, and etc.

That construct of Nero's shouldn't last against Climhazzard, and I don't see why Cloud couldn't hack it into pieces anyway. I already proved he can hack through huge chunks of a building, as well as cut down a steel tower effortlessly with one single strike (proven in the Bahamut video I provided earlier) and so much more. Plus he has fire materia, which can blow apart the entire floor of a small building (I think that was shown in the Bahamut video as well), this was shown during Kadaj and President Shinra's conversation just as President Shinra reveals Jenova's location and then leaps out of the building. Kadaj throws out a blast of fire and it's shown exploding and the two fall out of the building and etc. etc.

Plus he can use Omnislash to strike directly through a person's soul and defeat them that way if he has to.

He's got the collective memories and training of Zack Fair, plus he has all his own training and experience. Zack without Cloud's enhancements took on an army of people who had guns and some had super soldier enhancements and SOLDIER swords. Cloud himself took on Loz, and Yazoo at the same time while he was weakened by Geostigma and still had the upper hand almost the entire fight, dodging/deflect bullets while simultaneously taking on a character who can break concrete and throw those super motorcycles it's nothing.

Ogami Rei

Defensive

Power cancellation, the blue flame, bullet+ level reflexes, superhuman stats, and durability. This guy can tank several tons of steel being pushed on top of him (as proven multiple times), and attacks that shatter entire floors of steel/concrete with ease, and with little affect to his person.

Offensive

I see no reason that construct of Nero's would survive a Mammon attack, that thing with through dozens of tons of steel rolled into a giant ball. Nobody on your team within the durability limits should survive it either, and it has immense range.

With the blue flame he can affect one's mind/soul/body with his attacks, and it has pretty good range. It incinerates anything it touches.

Over and above this he can cancel powers. I agree, it probably doesn't have more than about 10 meters range, but it's still pretty handy.

Tactics:

They absolutely do matter. A character's intelligence and tactical sense is important in a battle. Your team has 4 tacticians and a few of which are genius level in intelligence. That's very important. My team has about the same to be honest. Ogami is the least intelligent, and he's a genius as well.

Overall:

I think my team's immense versatility is a huge advantage. I've also proven their durability and their ability to counter and put up a fight against most of your team.

I don't decide whether or not my team would win, I just provide reasons why I believe they would win. I think my team has proven their ability, and I look forward to seeing the results of the votes. It's been a pleasure debating with you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#34 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

What defense does Gromph have against Stasis? Your scan doesn't work(only the disintegration ray one works), but does Finger of Death, despite its name, just outright kill someone? I know for a fact in DnD it's just a highly damaging spell, but I'm not sure if it's different in Gromphverse. Does it even work as fast as a biotic can use Stasis? If this is a "who draws first" scenario then I'll take Liara's bullet time feats over everything you've provided for gromph and her ability to use her Biotics without doing a chant or spell incantation. No matter how fast you surmise Gromph can use these spells, they can't be faster than abilities that are activated by thought alone from someone with better reaction time.

Honestly, you've repeated your "offensive/defensive" rundown like 4 times alone in this thread. Your Cloud feats have gotten quite redundant(you even reposted some Advent Children scenes like 3 times) and you've outright disregarded two of my character's abilities pretty heavily -- your casual dismissal of Netero gets my goat the most, but you still haven't even given the slightest pause to any of your characters eating a Stasis + Firefly, considering I've seen nothing that indicates surviving five seconds of burning plasma, and Alita's ability to hang with Cloud in any sort of melee contest and her ability to circumvent healing and people with giant metal weapons (IE both of your melee competitors) with her Panzer Kunst

PS, I know Cloud is above the limit because of his perk, you just phrased him using his Haste as putting him to speeds unreachable by anyone on my team which is false, as Alita matches up with Spiderman quite nicely in speed and has the perk to match, and Netero has dealt with two significantly faster opponents in Mereum and Neferpitou. Your only point of interest is that he's got really good training...which Alita also has (again, master of the most deadly combat style in her universe), and has Chi to more than match him in a straight up fight, something Cloud has no accounting for should he try the blitzing you've suggested(much less past Netero, who is a horrible matchup for cloud with his magic immunity and ability to smack him down infinitely). I don't really care how many steel plates he's been smashed through, having his brain violently explode will still take him out.

You kind of leave Maka out as fairly trivial to the combat -- despite pointing out her capabilities, you never really give her a role in the fight itself besides flying around trying to use noise cancellation, which makes her a pretty easy target. I understand the purpose she serves on your team, but it seems largely inapplicable in this fight.

Atleast you finally DID respond to my drones...but only half of them. Again, there's explosion drones, and then plasma drones. Your team gets stuffed by Netero's defense and picked apart with Stasis. It's not like your team can get the jump on me and blitz Liara before she can use her abilities because of Alita's scouting drones, Gorgon's TP, and Netero's En(again, minimum 50m radius sphere), so you're stuck trying to do a standard fight, and you've got nothing that implies stopping a stasis or a firefly.

edit: just noticed your dispel magic sidenote. There's nothing even mildly considered magic in the HxH universe. Unless you think Gromph's dispel magic destroy's someone's endurance and willpower, it should have no affect on Netero (even if it did, Netero's nen defenses give him counters to endurance and willpower loss). Godkiller is most certainly magical, so if he got in range of Gromph and Gromph was using his time to cast the spell then it could work. That said it's partially addressed by me attacking gromph anyhow.

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#35 Edited by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

When did I leave Maka out as trivial? I've pretty much detailed my characters verse any of your team. As far as Stasis goes, Gromph will see it coming seconds before it happens, more than enough time to cast a spell. If Liara is opening with Stasis, then 3 seconds before the match opens Gromph will know it's coming, and he could Shadow Form.

As far as Nero goes, if anyone on your team would be vulnerable to noise cancellation it'd be him. I mean, life energy aura (your own words), soul wavelength (the aura put off by one's soul), are they really that incomprehensibly different? I've also countered him multiple times, but I only have about 25 or so scans to base my information off of, so it's hard to really keep debating against.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#36 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@Dredeuced:

When did I leave Maka out as trivial? I've pretty much detailed my characters verse any of your team. As far as Stasis goes, Gromph will see it coming seconds before it happens, more than enough time to cast a spell. If Liara is opening with Stasis, then 3 seconds before the match opens Gromph will know it's coming, and he could Shadow Form.

As far as Nero goes, if anyone on your team would be vulnerable to noise cancellation it'd be him. I mean, life energy aura (your own words), soul wavelength (the aura put off by one's soul), are they really that incomprehensibly different? I've also countered him multiple times, but I only have about 10 scans to base my information off of, so it's hard to really keep debating against.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

...Magic Psy Shield. Stops status effects. Noise Cancellation should have no effect on him.

You didn't counter Netero, you stated he couldn't hit your characters because of range issues which I thoroughly and utterly countered with both his Hatsu's range from merely being behind him and its ability to move freely around at long ranges. I gave you far more than 10 scans, and many of them detail the range he's attacking at very clearly and the speed and power with which he attacks with. I even showed you where it was invisible to people without the ability to sense it and you didn't respond.

If Gromph can freely cast spells while being invincible to everything but magic then you win(assuming your scan backs up your statements, it doesn't work). He could just cast it on himself at the start of the fight and use his magic blade on my team. That said, this level of intangibility was determined as unfair in this tournament when someone tried to get Danny Phantom in so I think you might be abusing the relatively lack of knowledge people have on your book character if it works like it sounds. edit: sorry, forgot to mention the stasis part. You only provided a counter for Gromph, which I've stated my skepticism on, but your other 3 members would be able to fall to the same trap. If Gromph just turned into a shadow it's not like Liara could even see him to target him.

Anyhow, like I said, sounds like Gromph can just solo my team with Shadow Form + Thin Blade since I can't counter intangibility (none of my characters except Gorgon even exist in a universe with intangibility, I thought it wasn't going to be an issue when we disbarred Danny Phantom).

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#37 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Floopay said:

@Dredeuced:

When did I leave Maka out as trivial? I've pretty much detailed my characters verse any of your team. As far as Stasis goes, Gromph will see it coming seconds before it happens, more than enough time to cast a spell. If Liara is opening with Stasis, then 3 seconds before the match opens Gromph will know it's coming, and he could Shadow Form.

As far as Nero goes, if anyone on your team would be vulnerable to noise cancellation it'd be him. I mean, life energy aura (your own words), soul wavelength (the aura put off by one's soul), are they really that incomprehensibly different? I've also countered him multiple times, but I only have about 10 scans to base my information off of, so it's hard to really keep debating against.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

...Magic Psy Shield. Stops status effects. Noise Cancellation should have no effect on him.

You didn't counter Netero, you stated he couldn't hit your characters because of range issues which I thoroughly and utterly countered with both his Hatsu's range from merely being behind him and its ability to move freely around at long ranges.

If Gromph can freely cast spells while being invincible to everything but magic then you win(assuming your scan backs up your statements, it doesn't work). He could just cast it on himself at the start of the fight and use his magic blade on my team. That said, this level of intangibility was determined as unfair in this tournament when someone tried to get Danny Phantom in so I think you might be abusing the relatively lack of knowledge people have on your book character if it works like it sounds.

Bah you are correct, forgot about the Magical Psy shield Perk! You are 100% correct.

Shadow Form makes him immune to physical attacks for the duration, at the cost of only being able to interact with his environment through magic. I have freely stated any and all weakness of each of my spells and abilities throughout this debate, even character weaknesses. Normally he'd be weak against psychic attacks, and he's still weak against magic attacks, psionic attacks, energy attacks, magic weapons, etc. etc.

I'm not abusing anything, there are several methods to take down my team, and if asked about weaknesses I will state them quite willingly. Most of which I have provided even without being asked.

I was never against Danny Phantom being chosen, and IIRC, he was actually in on joewell's team.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#38 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Stasis should still work then. Biotic attacks produce mass effect fields, which are energy constructs/field made from element zero. That's why it has that blue glowy effect in all my scans. If energy attacks work on Shadow Form then him using it in response to stasis would just get him stasised and plasma'd (plasma should count as an energy attack, too).

Like I said, I couldn't even see the scan of your Shadow Form and I have no idea how it works. "Becomes a living shadow" -- I mean, you ever tried to hit a shadow? I just end up hurting my hand when I try. :P

edit: Sorry, forgot to

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#39 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

Stasis should still work then. Biotic attacks produce mass effect fields, which are energy constructs/field made from element zero. If energy attacks work on Shadow Form then him using it in response to stasis would just get him stasised and plasma'd (plasma should counter as an energy attack, too).

Like I said, I couldn't even see the scan of your Shadow Form and I have no idea how it works.

Bah, lemme try to reupload it

For whatever reason, if the picture still doesn't show, this is what it says:

"Gromph felt his existence stretched across multiple realities. He felt solid to himself, as did all of his equipment, but his "flesh" tingled, and most of his senses felt dull. He could not hear or smell and the loss of sensation disconcerned him. Too, he could not touch anything on the physical world, at least not in the way he used to. He was solid; the world was shadow. He perceived the touch of physical objects more as a distant pressure change than a tactile sensation. He "sat" in Prath's chair only as matter of will, not because of the physical properties of the chair. He could have passed through it had he wished. The archmage perceived no colors -- only varying shades of gray---but his visual acuity grew sharper. Solid objects looked solid, the lines between them as sharp as a razor. He knew that he could walk on the air as easily as on the ground. He knew too that he could still cast spells in his shadow form. His equipment had transformed with him, so they were solid to him.

He was ready..

Seeing as he can phase through objects and moves purely as an extent of his will, this was what I was trying to convey as far as why I think he should escape stasis with this attack.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#40 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Well stasis doesn't make like a solid wall, it's more of an energy bubble that freezes you in space/time here's a video of it(notice how the guy bounces around and even floats in the air when the platform moves out from under him):

Loading Video...

Energy field(literally, it's called a Mass Effect field and the Mass Effect is their universe's explanation for disobeying the laws of physics because of SCIENCE) that completely stops movements and power usage and causes you to fall down prone after it fades. It prevents people from using biotics, weapons, or tech abilities (it stops you from moving drones which is a purely thought based process) of any kind so I unno how exactly it'd interact with shadow form.

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#41 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

Interesting, dunno how that would fair against Shadow Form. On the one hand, it does lock him in time/space, on the other hand, Gromph's body extends across 2 planes of existence. I'm gonna go ahead and not touch that or even attempt to say whether you or I am right, and let the voters decide :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#42 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: I know right? HOW DOES MAGIC AND SCI FI EVEN WORK

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#43 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG:

I hate to ask, but is there any chance you could recast your vote? Dredeuced and I have made a lot of new points since you cast your vote.

Just don't want a vote lying around that happened before all the information was presented.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#44 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: I think you managed to edge out a win here.

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#45 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: I'm gonna call a bunch of people in here, if you have anyone you'd like to read through and vote that you don't see in this list feel free to call them in :D

Don't want this one to sit at 1-1 for a week :P

Looking for votes if anyone would care to weigh in. It'd be much appreciated :)

Note: Anyone may weigh in on who you think would win this debate based on the information given. For those of you reading this who are unfamiliar with Battle Forum Tournaments and Challenge a Viner matches, you weigh in on which debater you think voiced their strategy and concepts best, not which team you think is stronger.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#46 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't follow anyone so I don't have people to call in. Feel free to call whoever in if they're willing to wade through my text dumps, lol.

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#47 Posted by New_World_Order (14895 posts) - - Show Bio

Floopay.

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#48 Posted by Rumble Man (11195 posts) - - Show Bio

+1 for using alita

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#49 Posted by Floopay (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

I don't follow anyone so I don't have people to call in. Feel free to call whoever in if they're willing to wade through my text dumps, lol.

Heh, I called in a bunch of people who aren't following me, and some who are pretty knowledgable on manga. I figured that way it should be a fair list of voters.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#50 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

+1 for using alita

Battle Angel Alita is a cool story that doesn't get enough recognition because of the hiatuses it's had and the swap over to last order. That said did you read the thread? seems odd for you to come in as soon as Floopay calls upon people. If you had already read it well you should've voted sooner! :P

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Floopay.

Forgive me if this sounds crass but did you read the thread? You voted right after Floopay called you in, if you had read it already then vote sooner! :P