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#101 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to admit that Batman is evenly matched with Oliver in h2h. Is Oliver more skilled? Yes. Is he faster? Yes. But as skilled and fast he is he can't deal with that kind of strength up close. He will dance around Bruce, will land more hits but will eventually tire out and be overwhelmed by his far superior strength and striking power. If this was a swordfight, I'd definitely back Oliver but in pure h2h, Bruce takes the majority.

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#102 Posted by azrael1973 (1769 posts) - - Show Bio

1

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#103 Posted by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

He will dance around Bruce, will land more hits but will eventually tire out and be overwhelmed by his far superior strength and striking power.

Two faulty assumptions:

  • Bruce's stamina is good enough to tire out Oliver.
  • Suit allows him to survive a beating from Oliver.

As far as I'm concerned there are no feats to suggest that Oliver will be the one to tire first and despite the suit Bruce was still staggered by attacks from normal people, not to mention that his jaw is exposed.

his far superior strength and striking power.

The gap in physical strenght isn't nearly as large as you think. Bruce might have better average strenght feats but Queen has several high end feats like breaking handcuffs and his S5 showings.

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#104 Posted by jashro44 (42404 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to admit that Batman is evenly matched with Oliver in h2h. Is Oliver more skilled? Yes. Is he faster? Yes. But as skilled and fast he is he can't deal with that kind of strength up close. He will dance around Bruce, will land more hits but will eventually tire out and be overwhelmed by his far superior strength and striking power. If this was a swordfight, I'd definitely back Oliver but in pure h2h, Bruce takes the majority.

Bruce isn't that much stronger than Oliver if we use season 5 feats.

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#105 Posted by ANTHP2000 (7387 posts) - - Show Bio

2 or 3

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#106 Posted by RBT (13731 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Standard gear- A lot.

Unarmed- At least 2.

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#107 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

Bruce's stamina is good enough to tire out Oliver.

I said that because Oliver would be the one dancing around Bruce trying to land hits while evading Bruce's hits. More dancing = more loss of stamina. And not to say that Oliver doesn't have impressive stamina, but Bruce is pretty impressive in that regard as well. He took a beating from Superman, was thrown around and ragdolled through concrete structures and moments later he went on to fight 20 odd armed mercenaries and took out a majority of them in cqc, unlike Oliver who would prefer to use his bow and arrows in those kind of situations, and then after saving Martha he went on to confront Doomsday. You know the reason Bruce is often lowballed on CV is because he was tagged a few times by the mercenaries but people forget to take into account the fact that when he took them on he was fatigued from his fight with Superman and he had limited time to save Martha, so he had no time to plan his approach. He went in like a battering ram and completely wrecked those guys. Was he tagged in the process? Yes, but that's because he knew that his suit can take a few knife slashes or his cowl and gauntlets can tank bullets. I know beating fodder is not considered impressive but whatever skill and coordination those guys showed in the limited time they got, it's enough for me to say that they were far from unskilled fodder.

Suit allows him to survive a beating from Oliver.

Um, when did I say that? I don't think he needs his suit to survive a beating from Oliver.

As far as I'm concerned there are no feats to suggest that Oliver will be the one to tire first and despite the suit Bruce was still staggered by attacks from normal people, not to mention that his jaw is exposed.

When was Bruce staggered? And do you mean to say that Oliver has never been staggered or hurt by fodder?

The gap in physical strenght isn't nearly as large as you think. Bruce might have better average strenght feats but Queen has several high end feats like breaking handcuffs and his S5 showings.

Well, that's the problem with most Arrowverse characters. Oliver has high-end feats that rival those of guys like Cap and then he has low end feats that completely disregard the high end ones. For example, on Lian Yu, Oliver is able to take multiple hits from an enraged Mirakuru Slade without losing consciousness. Then later in S02 he's knocked out cold by a single punch from the same guy, only "not enraged" this time. Now where am I supposed to put Oliver durability wise?

And which S5 showings are you talking about? I'm done with the season but I can't remember any strength or striking feats from Oliver that comes close to what Bruce did in that warehouse fight. My memory is sh!t though.

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#108 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:
@the_fallen_lord said:

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to admit that Batman is evenly matched with Oliver in h2h. Is Oliver more skilled? Yes. Is he faster? Yes. But as skilled and fast he is he can't deal with that kind of strength up close. He will dance around Bruce, will land more hits but will eventually tire out and be overwhelmed by his far superior strength and striking power. If this was a swordfight, I'd definitely back Oliver but in pure h2h, Bruce takes the majority.

Bruce isn't that much stronger than Oliver if we use season 5 feats.

Which feats are you talking about exactly? I'm done with the season but my memory is sh!t, so I really can't remember any such feats that put him on par with Bruce.

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#109 Posted by jashro44 (42404 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_fallen_lord: Throwing Anarky and Wild Dog, and also flinging up Stardust with his arrows. I can't post videos right now since I am at work.

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#110 Posted by lubub55 (7240 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@the_fallen_lord: Throwing Anarky and Wild Dog, and also flinging up Stardust with his arrows. I can't post videos right now since I am at work.

I think that was assisted with the strength of his arrows retraction function. There is a sound effect of it reeling in.

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#111 Posted by jashro44 (42404 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:
@jashro44 said:

@the_fallen_lord: Throwing Anarky and Wild Dog, and also flinging up Stardust with his arrows. I can't post videos right now since I am at work.

I think that was assisted with the strength of his arrows retraction function. There is a sound effect of it reeling in.

Same could be said about batman fling things around with his grapple gun.

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#112 Posted by lubub55 (7240 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah, I agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't really classify either as pure strength feats.

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#113 Posted by CRUSHYOURENEMIES (1753 posts) - - Show Bio

1

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#114 Posted by killers10333 (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

1-2

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#115 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

@the_fallen_lord: Throwing Anarky and Wild Dog, and also flinging up Stardust with his arrows. I can't post videos right now since I am at work.

Okay I will look those up on youtube.

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#116 Edited by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_fallen_lord said:

Bruce's stamina is good enough to tire out Oliver.

I said that because Oliver would be the one dancing around Bruce trying to land hits while evading Bruce's hits. More dancing = more loss of stamina. And not to say that Oliver doesn't have impressive stamina, but Bruce is pretty impressive in that regard as well. He took a beating from Superman, was thrown around and ragdolled through concrete structures and moments later he went on to fight 20 odd armed mercenaries and took out a majority of them in cqc, unlike Oliver who would prefer to use his bow and arrows in those kind of situations, and then after saving Martha he went on to confront Doomsday.

The suit part is irrelevant since it was stated that it has it's own power source since it was too heavy, I'll try to find the quote unless @lubub55 has it. Warehouse scene and Doomsday scene are separated by some time and he had plenty of time to recover.

Oh come on. Why are people acting like he simultaneously took down 20 people at once. He took four at once at best and he was using a lot of gadgets and other tools to take down the others.

Um, when did I say that? I don't think he needs his suit to survive a beating from Oliver.

Care to elaborate? I find it really hard to belive.

When was Bruce staggered? And do you mean to say that Oliver has never been staggered or hurt by fodder?

More like affected but yes, their kicks had an effect on him. I assumed that you though Bruce can survive the beating untill Oliver tires out and such tactic has to end up with getting hit, a lot. That's why I brought up his durability.

Well, that's the problem with most Arrowverse characters. Oliver has high-end feats that rival those of guys like Cap and then he has low end feats that completely disregard the high end ones. For example, on Lian Yu, Oliver is able to take multiple hits from an enraged Mirakuru Slade without losing consciousness. Then later in S02 he's knocked out cold by a single punch from the same guy, only "not enraged" this time.

Inconsistency is the problem for a lot of characters. Beside I was clearly talking about strenght, not durability.

The topic you mentioned is another long story and I'd rather not bring it up unless it's directly related to our debate.

You know the reason Bruce is often lowballed on CV is because he was tagged a few times by the mercenaries but people forget to take into account the fact that when he took them on he was fatigued from his fight with Superman and he had limited time to save Martha, so he had no time to plan his approach.

He isn't lowballed. He was simply tagged by merceneries, plain and simple. I watched that scene a lot of times and there is no excause for him. Pretending that he just finished fighting Superman bare-handed one minute ago doesn't work.

He had no time to plan his approach but he had an entire arsenal of gadgets and sneak attack. And even then lack of plan is completely irrelevant, Bruce got tagged in hand to hand combat:

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Or to be more precise he gets tagged while he is busy pummeling another men, after taking down the attacker this happens:

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Am I suppose to ignore all those scenes or else I'll be branded as lowballing hater?

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#117 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

The suit part is irrelevant since it was stated that it has it's own power source since it was too heavy, I'll try to find the quote unless @lubub55 has it. Warehouse scene and Doomsday scene are separated by some time and he had plenty of time to recover.

I remember Snyder saying that the Suit did nothing to enhance Batman's strength. The reason Bruce worked out so hard before confronting Superman was because he had to be able to move and fight in that suit. The suit was dead weight. So I don't think it's irrelevant at all. His fight with Superman not only does show his stamina but also highlights his durability. Being thrown around from great heights with great speed and smashed through concrete walls by Superman with no apparent damage is an impressive showing.

Oh come on. Why are people acting like he simultaneously took down 20 people at once. He took four at once at best and

I never said that. I only said that he took most of them in cqc. And yeah, he only took four at once. Now can you show me Oliver taking on four skilled and armed fodder simultaneously in h2h? Or can you show me Oliver taking on 20 guys in a closed and well-lit place like the warehouse in BvS without using stealth?

he was using a lot of gadgets and other tools to take down the others.

Yeah, like Oliver never uses gadgets / weapons. You know his most abused weapon is the explosive arrow which he uses almost everytime when he's surrounded with too many people that he otherwise wouldn't be able to handle normally.

Care to elaborate? I find it really hard to believe.

See above. Plus, I'm yet to see a striking feat from Oliver that would suggest that Bruce can't survive his hits.

More like affected but yes, their kicks had an effect on him. I assumed that you though Bruce can survive the beating untill Oliver tires out and such tactic has to end up with getting hit, a lot. That's why I brought up his durability.

No, he won't be getting hit a lot, more like he'd be blocking Oliver's hits more than Oliver would have to block or dodge his that is unless you believe that Oliver is so fast that Bruce won't be able to react to him.

Inconsistency is the problem for a lot of characters. Beside I was clearly talking about strenght, not durability.

Not as much as it's a problem for Arrowverse characters though.

He isn't lowballed. He was simply tagged by merceneries, plain and simple. I watched that scene a lot of times and there is no excause for him. Pretending that he just finished fighting Superman bare-handed one minute ago doesn't work.

I don't see why it doesn't work. What Bruce went through during that fight sure did take a toll on his body. I can't help but wonder why is this not obvious. Pretending that he was as fresh as a Daisy doesn't work at all.

He had no time to plan his approach but he had an entire arsenal of gadgets and sneak attack. And even then lack of plan is completely irrelevant, Bruce got tagged in hand to hand combat:

Bruce used stealth in the beginning to disarm most of them, yes, but later he did engage them in cqc. And as far as getting tagged is concerned, as I said in my previous reply, he simply didn't care about being tagged and it makes perfect sense because first, he was in a hurry to save Martha so he had to dispatch those mercenaries as quickly as possible without worrying about himself getting hurt or injured and second, he knew he could afford getting tagged simply because he was confident his suit could take it. And he not only beat those guys, he destroyed them. He actually punched a guy so hard that he landed head first on the floor and snapped his neck. He pulled a guy towards him with his grappling hook and then punched him hard enough against his momentum to send him back to his original place. Honestly his strength and striking feats are closer to those of Cap or Mirakuru Slade than they are to Oliver's. I don't know how Oliver can deal with that.

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#118 Posted by nfactor1995 (11456 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Yeah he's been tagged by those mercenaries. But then he's also done this:

No Caption Provided

Fought four people at the same time, while only getting tagged once and successfully blocking and parrying basically all of their attacks. I'm not sure Oliver even has a feat that is like this one.

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#119 Posted by jayc1324 (22288 posts) - - Show Bio

1

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#120 Posted by RBT (13731 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995:

Fought four people at the same time, while only getting tagged once and successfully blocking and parrying basically all of their attacks. I'm not sure Oliver even has a feat that is like this one.

Oliver has literally beat his whole team at same time. I'll argue that even the worst of his team is more skilled than any of those fodders Bruce was going against.

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#121 Posted by franky666 (805 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: 2 Batmen are enough but one will surely die.

Round 2: I'd say 1 Batman is pretty much evenly matched with Oliver in h2h, but goddamn Batman's fighting style is so fluid, powerful and impetuous that i think he would win.

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#122 Posted by nfactor1995 (11456 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: You talking about the sparring session or something else? Because in the sparring session they were all fighting each other, Oliver just happened to be the one who ultimately took every out of the match. Hardly the same thing as fighting all of them simultaneously.

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#123 Posted by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995: Yes, I mentioned that.

Oliver took four ghosts at once with a single bow strike.

I'm not certain if any other character took four people at once but Thea for example easily took down three without getting touched unlike Bruce although his feat is great anyway.

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I'd imagine that one or two more wouldn't really matter and she did it much faster

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#124 Edited by uugieboogie (11548 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

@nfactor1995: Yes, I mentioned that.

Oliver took four ghosts at once with a single bow strike.

I'm not certain if any other character took four people at once but Thea for example easily took down three without getting touched unlike Bruce although his feat is great anyway.

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I'd imagine that one or two more wouldn't really matter and she did it much faster

You see how she's going from one person to another? That's not like Batman's when 4 people at one time are actively attacking simultaneously, not one at a time. The only comparable life action gif I can think of is this..

No Caption Provided

Like Batman at the start of the gif you see him actively blocking/countering 4 people all at once.

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#125 Posted by RBT (13731 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: You talking about the sparring session or something else? Because in the sparring session they were all fighting each other, Oliver just happened to be the one who ultimately took every out of the match. Hardly the same thing as fighting all of them simultaneously.

That too. But I was talking about when he stomped Wild Dog, Evelyn, Rory and Curtis.

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#126 Posted by nfactor1995 (11456 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: At the beginning of the season yeah? GIF?

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#127 Edited by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember Snyder saying that the Suit did nothing to enhance Batman's strength.

There was another source that directly contradicted but unless I can find it, act as if it's non-existant.

His fight with Superman not only does show his stamina but also highlights his durability. Being thrown around from great heights with great speed and smashed through concrete walls by Superman with no apparent damage is an impressive showing.

No.

The was meant to protect him from any damage. It was durability feat for suit, not for Bruce.

Now can you show me Oliver taking on four skilled and armed fodder simultaneously in h2h? Or can you show me Oliver taking on 20 guys in a closed and well-lit place like the warehouse in BvS without using stealth?

He took down four with one strike and beat his entire team. I don't have gifs though.

Yeah, like Oliver never uses gadgets / weapons. You know his most abused weapon is the explosive arrow which he uses almost everytime when he's surrounded with too many people that he otherwise wouldn't be able to handle normally.

Stop changing the subject, please. Oliver is irrelevant here, I said that he didn't clear entire warehouse scene using hand to hand only but instead supported himself with a lot of gadgets.

Plus, I'm yet to see a striking feat from Oliver that would suggest that Bruce can't survive his hits.

I'm yet to see a durability feat from Bruce that would suggest that he can survive Oliver's hits. Anyway, there is no respect thread and I have only this one:

No Caption Provided

Granted he had bow there but it's not completely irrelevant. I create more once I find the scenes.

Not as much as it's a problem for Arrowverse characters though.

You haven't seen much then.

I don't see why it doesn't work. What Bruce went through during that fight sure did take a toll on his body. I can't help but wonder why is this not obvious. Pretending that he was as fresh as a Daisy doesn't work at all.

Mecha-suit. Plus he had time to recover after the time finished but sure we can act like he instantly jumped into the warehouse scene.

And as far as getting tagged is concerned, as I said in my previous reply, he simply didn't care about being tagged and it makes perfect sense because first, he was in a hurry to save Martha so he had to dispatch those mercenaries as quickly as possible

Nope, he got tagged while he was busy with pummeling another mercenery on the ground.

he knew he could afford getting tagged simply because he was confident his suit could take it

Pure speculation. Not to mention that merceneries hits affected him.

Honestly his strength and striking feats are closer to those of Cap or Mirakuru Slade than they are to Oliver's.

Hardly, his best striking strenght feat is breaking concentrate and punching the guy after pulling him with the grapple hook. The distance the latter men passed isn't nearly as big as it seems:

No Caption Provided

I don't know how Oliver can deal with that.

He has taken hits from Mirakuru users several times. He can take that.

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#128 Posted by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: At some points she sweeped all three of them with one move just like Oliver once took down few Ghosts with one strike.

Bruce's feat is admirable but Arrowverse characters has taken similar amount of opponents with one move or simply took them down much faster. Their fighting style is different, Thea would probably evade and took them down one after another while Bruce can afford to block because he has knifeproof gauntlets and cowl (as seen when he actually got tagged during that fight but ignored it).

Give Oliver or another skilled hand to hand fighter that suit and he would replicate that feat with ease. Obviously he would need certain physical strenght aswell.

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#129 Posted by rogueshadow (23345 posts) - - Show Bio

What's Oliver's best unarmed fodder feat?

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#130 Posted by Flash9865 (114 posts) - - Show Bio

Stop wanking Oliver and it depends on the situation.

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#131 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

No.

The was meant to protect him from any damage. It was durability feat for suit, not for Bruce.

Then how come Rhodey was paralyzed when he fell after getting hit by Vision's mind gem blast in CW. Afterall he was in a mecha-suit. It should've protected him, no? Unless you completely ignore physics, it was a durability feat for Batman too.

He took down four with one strike

Were those guys armed? Were they attacking him all at once? Was Oliver unarmed? If not, then it's irrelevant.

and beat his entire team. I don't have gifs though.

Unless his team was armed with pointy weapons and were attacking him all at once with the intent to kill, I can't take this feat seriously.

Stop changing the subject, please. Oliver is irrelevant here, I said that he didn't clear entire warehouse scene using hand to hand only but instead supported himself with a lot of gadgets.

I brought it up because you said that you were not impressed by this feat because he used gadgets.

You haven't seen much then.

If you are talking about MCU / DCEU characters then believe me, I have seen it all.

Nope, he got tagged while he was busy with pummeling another mercenery on the ground.

Pure speculation. Not to mention that merceneries hits affected him.

I already said he didn't give a sh!t about being tagged. And how am I speculating? Are you saying that Batman didn't know that his cowl, gauntlets and cape are bulletproof / piercing proof? Are you saying that he wasn't sure that he would be able to tank a couple punches and kicks from those guys? And why are you repeatedly bringing it up that the mercenaries hits affected him? Has Oliver never been staggered or affected by hits from fodder?

Hardly, his best striking strenght feat is breaking concentrate and punching the guy after pulling him with the grapple hook. The distance the latter men passed isn't nearly as big as it seems:

You do realize that he hit that guy against his momentum. Now I'm not much of a math guy but I'm sure that this is his best striking feat to date and Oliver has never come close to replicate that.

He has taken hits from Mirakuru users several times. He can take that.

Yeah I remember him getting one shotted by a Mirakuru user. He can definitely take it.

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#132 Posted by uugieboogie (11548 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

At some points she sweeped all three of them with one move just like Oliver once took down few Ghosts with one strike.

That's not the same as blocking, deflecting and countering multiple people at one time. She's doing a single strike to hurt people which is a skill and striking feat IMO. In the gif above IP Man is blocking/4 parrying 4 different people all the sametime. He only has 4 limbs and he's actively fighting 4 people at one time. I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying.

Bruce's feat is admirable but Arrowverse characters has taken similar amount of opponents with one move or simply took them down much faster. Their fighting style is different, Thea would probably evade and took them down one after another while Bruce can afford to block because he has knifeproof gauntlets and cowl (as seen when he actually got tagged during that fight but ignored it).

The most Arrowverse characters have fought simultaneously is 3. And typically they're coming one at time not all at one time like they did against Bruce and Ip Man. Being skilled enough to fight 3 people in waves of 1 is nice but being able to fight 3 people all simultaneously is better.

Give Oliver or another skilled hand to hand fighter that suit and he would replicate that feat with ease. Obviously he would need certain physical strenght aswell.

There's quite a few characters who replicate Bruce's scene with his suit, there's a lot of characters who can replicate Oliver's hallway feat as well. That doesn't mean they'll clear the hallway the same way just like other characters wouldn't clear Bruce's scene the same way. And yes Bruce got tagged, but after that he's dodging the guy in front of him while blocking one guy on his left and the other on his right. That's what I consider actively fighting multiple people simultaneously. That's different that blocking one person, hitting him away, then another person comes up and so on.

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#133 Posted by blackpantherisb (2961 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: 6

R2: 2

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#134 Posted by jashro44 (42404 posts) - - Show Bio

What's Oliver's best unarmed fodder feat?

Season one defeating those fodders while suffering from Vertigo IMO.

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#135 Posted by TheSuperor (4803 posts) - - Show Bio

A bunch of them in standard gear

Probably 2-3 unarmed, 3 just too be sure

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#136 Edited by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: I see what you have in mind but I cannot agree on certain points.

It's not purely skill showings. Bruce utilized strenght and suit advantage to pull of that feat.

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He got tagged by the knife but could shrug it off because of the suit. Just like he could block simultaneously two knife strikes thanks to his gauntlets. None of Arrow characters has that comfort so they usually utilize superior speed and skill to put them down before they can even attack at the same time. Bruce simply has the tools to pull off such feat.

As I mentioned several times before, it's an impressive showing but let's stop acting like he literally blocked hits from four guys at once, he blocked two at once and then focused on another two.

We have also seen him ignore certain hits simply because he could do that. But anyway, I see your point.

@the_fallen_lord said:

Then how come Rhodey was paralyzed when he fell after getting hit by Vision's mind gem blast in CW. Afterall he was in a mecha-suit. It should've protected him, no? Unless you completely ignore physics, it was a durability feat for Batman too.

Different suit and he fell right at his head. With that logic you can assume that each time Tony or Rhodey take the blunt force attack it's a durability feat for their bodies, not for suit.

Were those guys armed? Were they attacking him all at once? Was Oliver unarmed? If not, then it's irrelevant.

He used bow. They were standing in the straight line while he took them down before they could even react.

Arrow characters are using speed and skill to take down larger group of enemies while Bruce exploit his strenght and suit.

Unless his team was armed with pointy weapons and were attacking him all at once with the intent to kill, I can't take this feat seriously.

I hate to break it to you but you'd have to ignore 90% of live-action characters skill feats. They usually take the enemy one after another or few at once.

If you are talking about MCU / DCEU characters then believe me, I have seen it all.

No, comics.

You do realize that he hit that guy against his momentum. Now I'm not much of a math guy but I'm sure that this is his best striking feat to date and Oliver has never come close to replicate that.

The momentum doesn't have to be large. It makes the feat a tad more impressive but as seen on the picture the distance itself wasn't anything spectacular.

I already said he didn't give a sh!t about being tagged. And how am I speculating? Are you saying that Batman didn't know that his cowl, gauntlets and cape are bulletproof / piercing proof? Are you saying that he wasn't sure that he would be able to tank a couple punches and kicks from those guys? And why are you repeatedly bringing it up that the mercenaries hits affected him? Has Oliver never been staggered or affected by hits from fodder?

Geez.

He was affected by the hits and got stabbed with a knife in the process. He failed to react to a kick from a fodder and then they managed to keep him on the ground and stab him. Are you trying to prove that he allowed them to do that because he knew he can take it?

I'm bringing it up because you said that he can take a beating from Oliver. Whether Queen was staggered or affected by a fodders is completely irrelevant.

I brought it up because you said that you were not impressed by this feat because he used gadgets.

No, you brough it up because you got confused.

- I said that he didn't take 20 men using only hand to hand but utilized a lot of gadgets instead.

- You brought up Oliver using bow and trick arrows.

Oliver is completely irrelevant here.

Yeah I remember him getting one shotted by a Mirakuru user. He can definitely take it.

He took their punches several time. That includes Flashback Slade and Cyrus Gold. He was staggered but conscious.

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#137 Posted by rogueshadow (23345 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@rogueshadow said:

What's Oliver's best unarmed fodder feat?

Season one defeating those fodders while suffering from Vertigo IMO.

The stairway fight?

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#138 Posted by jashro44 (42404 posts) - - Show Bio
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#139 Posted by uugieboogie (11548 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

He got tagged by the knife but could shrug it off because of the suit. Just like he could block simultaneously two knife strikes thanks to his gauntlets. None of Arrow characters has that comfort so they usually utilize superior speed and skill to put them down before they can even attack at the same time. Bruce simply has the tools to pull off such feat.

He blocked two knives and while dodging an attack from the front. But saying him using his gauntlets to block knives isn't impressive because of the gauntlets is like saying Oliver deflecting Double Down's cards isn't impressive because he used his bow.

As I mentioned several times before, it's an impressive showing but let's stop acting like he literally blocked hits from four guys at once, he blocked two at once and then focused on another two.

Before he broke the guys arm he blocks two guys while striking another at the same time. I didn't count him blocking with his gauntlets as getting because how else is he suppose to block a knife?

We have also seen him ignore certain hits simply because he could do that. But anyway, I see your point.

I agree. He lets a guy tag his neck and his back/cape. Which is why I'm unsure how to rank him without the suit on to see if he fights differently without it.

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#140 Posted by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: It's getting seriously tiresome:

But saying him using his gauntlets to block knives isn't impressive because of the gauntlets is like saying Oliver deflecting Double Down's cards isn't impressive because he used his bow.

I said that the feat impressive at least three times. I mentioned that it's a factor to consider, not that it makes an entire feat unimpressive. And it is a factor, without the suit or gauntlets he would have to dodge those strikes, not block it like that.

Before he broke the guys arm he blocks two guys while striking another at the same time

I have seen that. My bad.

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#141 Posted by the_fallen_lord (1413 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

Different suit and he fell right at his head. With that logic you can assume that each time Tony or Rhodey take the blunt force attack it's a durability feat for their bodies, not for suit.

That's not how the suits work. Vision's blast took out the arc reactor of Rhodey's suit which was it's power source. Without power the suit lost it's functionality. When he was falling it was nothing but dead weight; He was just a man in a tin can, which means the suit could still protect him from external damage / injury but not from the shock of the blunt force trauma / internal injury which is what the suit actively protects them from with power on. I think this is an acceptable explaination for how Tony is still alive and kicking despite all the punishment he has taken over the course of all his film appearances. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense logically.

Take the example of Luke Cage. His skin is impenetrable but he was still knocked out by a shotgun shell to the chin. How come? The shell didn't penetrate his skin, so he should have been fine, right? No, he was taken out by the shock of the blunt force.

That's why I think Batman's feat is very impressive. His armor protected him from external damage but not from internal injuries. A regular human would have died many times over in similar circumstances.

I hate to break it to you but you'd have to ignore 90% of live-action characters skill feats. They usually take the enemy one after another or few at once.

That's exactly what makes Batman's feat so much more impressive. I agree with you that he used his gauntlets to block / parry their attacks but the fact that he was able to react to all four of them attacking him at the same time shows that he is not only strong but has insanely fast reaction times as well. Although I still maintain that Oliver is faster but the speed difference is not significant enough to affect the outcome of this battle.

The momentum doesn't have to be large. It makes the feat a tad more impressive but as seen on the picture the distance itself wasn't anything spectacular.

Okay I guess we have to agree to disagree here. I think this is by far the most impressive striking feat for a peak human in MCU / DCEU / Arrowverse combined.

He was affected by the hits and got stabbed with a knife in the process. He failed to react to a kick from a fodder and then they managed to keep him on the ground and stab him. Are you trying to prove that he allowed them to do that because he knew he can take it?

Lol, this is getting repetitive now. Okay allow me to rephrase myself; He was careless in his approach. He relied more on his strength and striking than speed and skill to dispatch those mercenaries quickly, and yes, he was tagged a couple times in the process. So what? Are you implying that Oliver has never been tagged by fodder? Because otherwise there is no point to it. Getting tagged a couple times when you are taking on multiple enemies cannot be termed as low-showing.

He took their punches several time. That includes Flashback Slade and Cyrus Gold. He was staggered but conscious.

Let's not get into this debate, lol. I'll just say that Oliver has been staggered, hurt, bruised, and beaten to near unconsciousness by people with much less striking power than DCEU Batman. So there's no reason to believe that he can tank a beating from Bruce.

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#142 Posted by LarcadeDragneel (572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#143 Posted by entropy_aegis (18854 posts) - - Show Bio

One, Ollie cant even take a hit from a guy with that power and not fall over, the second one effs his face.

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#144 Posted by AbelHsu (3100 posts) - - Show Bio

lol,Bruce wins.

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#145 Posted by GLCorps (57 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen all seasons, enjoyed half of it a lot !

Batman sends Nightwing .... he is too busy ^^

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#146 Posted by Wewlad80 (3447 posts) - - Show Bio

@glcorps: Dick doesnt exist in DCEU, Only jason

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#147 Posted by GLCorps (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@wewlad80 said:

@glcorps: Dick doesnt exist in DCEU, Only jason

I'm pretty certain a Nightwing solo movie has been very much confirmed. He also appeared in the new DC cinema intro if I'm not mistaken.

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#148 Posted by Wewlad80 (3447 posts) - - Show Bio
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#149 Posted by Major_Hellstorm (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

2.

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#150 Edited by foxerdes (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_fallen_lord said:

That's not how the suits work. Vision's blast took out the arc reactor of Rhodey's suit which was it's power source. Without power the suit lost it's functionality. When he was falling it was nothing but dead weight; He was just a man in a tin can, which means the suit could still protect him from external damage / injury but not from the shock of the blunt force trauma / internal injury which is what the suit actively protects them from with power on. I think this is an acceptable explaination for how Tony is still alive and kicking despite all the punishment he has taken over the course of all his film appearances. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense logically.

Take the example of Luke Cage. His skin is impenetrable but he was still knocked out by a shotgun shell to the chin. How come? The shell didn't penetrate his skin, so he should have been fine, right? No, he was taken out by the shock of the blunt force.

That's why I think Batman's feat is very impressive. His armor protected him from external damage but not from internal injuries. A regular human would have died many times over in similar circumstances.

The suit takes the damage, plain and simple. You are trying too hard to find durability feat for Bruce.

He was just a man in a tin can, which means the suit could still protect him from external damage / injury but not from the shock of the blunt force trauma / internal injury which is what the suit actively protects them from with power on. I think this is an acceptable explaination for how Tony is still alive and kicking despite all the punishment he has taken over the course of all his film appearances.

Nope, Rhodey had to lost his power source because otherwise the scene would make no sense, he would fly away. The rest is a speculation meant to support your argument.

Also, as far as I'm aware Tony never fell from such height right on his head.

Impressive. I agree with you that he used his gauntlets to block / parry their attacks but the fact that he was able to react to all four of them attacking him at the same time shows that he is not only strong but has insanely fast reaction times as well. Although I still maintain that Oliver is faster but the speed difference is not significant enough to affect the outcome of this battle.

Hardly, most of live action characters is simply much faster and effective thus they don't have to utilize their gear and physical strenght to pull off such feat. He never reacted to all four of them at once, at best he was holding one of them and subsequently dealed with two other guys one after another or blocked two knife strikes at once.

I fail to see how this feat dwarf other live-action characters who take down fodder much faster and much more effectively. Not to mention that this feat cannot be replicated without the suit and gauntlets because he would get cut and tagged in the neck halfway through.

Without the suit he would need to fight in a different manner, I don't see it as ultimate skill feat for reasons stated above.

Okay I guess we have to agree to disagree here. I think this is by far the most impressive striking feat for a peak human in MCU / DCEU / Arrowverse combined.

If you have peak humans in mind then yes, it is extremely impressive. I had super soldiers in mind.

Lol, this is getting repetitive now. Okay allow me to rephrase myself; He was careless in his approach. He relied more on his strength and striking than speed and skill to dispatch those mercenaries quickly, and yes, he was tagged a couple times in the process. So what? Are you implying that Oliver has never been tagged by fodder? Because otherwise there is no point to it. Getting tagged a couple times when you are taking on multiple enemies cannot be termed as low-showing.

It's getting repetitive because you fail to logically explain why would Bruce allow those fodders to put him down and then stab and keep him on the ground even longer. Because Bruce allowed it? Hardly. I won't ignore entire minute of a fight simply because it makes him look bad.

Obviously Oliver is tagged aswell but he doesn't have any low-showing of such caliber. I'm currently rewatching the series feat wise so I'll be able to answer more precisely soon.

Let's not get into this debate, lol. I'll just say that Oliver has been staggered, hurt, bruised, and beaten to near unconsciousness by people with much less striking power than DCEU Batman. So there's no reason to believe that he can tank a beating from Bruce.

Yes, let's ignore two great showings for Oliver and one bad showing for Bruce.