How long can Count Dooku last against Knightfall Vader? (Legends)

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frozen

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Edited By frozen  Moderator

Poll How long can Count Dooku last against Knightfall Vader? (Legends) (64 votes)

0-30 seconds 50%
30 seconds - 1 minute 16%
1 - 2 mins 11%
3 - 5 mins 11%
6 - 8 mins 0%
10 mins + 13%

How long can Dooku last before dying to KFV?

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Rules

  • Anakin is KFV
  • Count Dooku is ROTS version
  • KFV wants to kill him for the second time
  • Fight takes place inside the Jedi temple
  • Start 10 feet apart

How long can the Count last?

 • 
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SheevSmacker

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option 1

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Steve40L

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3 to 5 minutes.

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El_mago

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10 seconds

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In the film, Dooku lasted 13 seconds against Anakin. KFV >(>) Zonakin. He'll be lucky to last 10.

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deactivated-627d8daf1de25

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10 seconds

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Depends on his mindset tbh.

He lost to Anakin via inferior power, but also due to arrogance. He had a smug grin on his face even while battling Zonakin and proceeds to try and beat Anakin the same way as in AoTC, which backfires.

That Dooku lasts 12 seconds or less.

A cautious Dooku that knows what he's up against could probably last longer before growing tired.

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#8  Edited By DirtyLuna

3-4, 5 minutes if he acts smart. The film version doesn't represent the reality it's a shortened version, in the RoTS novel, the fight lasts for several minutes and the reasons for Dooku's weak performance against Zonakin in comparison to base-RoTS Anakin are also thoroughly explained in there. I believe it's nonsense to think he'd only last a few seconds against KF Vader. Given that they have knowledge about eachother, I think Dooku would be able to give KFV a real fight.

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Realistically, a Serious Dooku with Knowledge could last 3-5 minutes and might even take a couple rounds.

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#10 frozen  Moderator

Bump.

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3-4, 5 minutes if he acts smart. The film version doesn't represent the reality it's a shortened version, in the RoTS novel, the fight lasts for several minutes and the reasons for Dooku's weak performance against Zonakin in comparison to base-RoTS Anakin are also thoroughly explained in there. I believe it's nonsense to think he'd only last a few seconds against KF Vader. Given that they have knowledge about eachother, I think Dooku would be able to give KFV a real fight.

Realistically, a Serious Dooku with Knowledge could last 3-5 minutes and might even take a couple rounds.

Depends on his mindset tbh.

He lost to Anakin via inferior power, but also due to arrogance. He had a smug grin on his face even while battling Zonakin and proceeds to try and beat Anakin the same way as in AoTC, which backfires.

That Dooku lasts 12 seconds or less.

A cautious Dooku that knows what he's up against could probably last longer before growing tired.

Dooku wasn't just "inferior" to Anakin. He was far below him. Nor was it just power. Anakin was driving him back even pre-Zonakin:

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

Just stopping Anakin from cleaving him in two took huge amounts of power on his part. Anakin was matching him in skill - surpassing him, arguably - dominating him in physicals, and stomping him in power. Zonakin did this at a faster pace. KFV is stronger than even that iteration of Anakin. How is Dooku lasting several minutes when every intercepted blow will drain him?

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macattack1

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I don’t think Knightfall Vader is much above how Anakin was towards the end of the invisible hand duel when he stopped holding back. Dooku at that point was already exhausted and he still lasted a good bunch of seconds. I can’t see a fresh Dooku going down in less than 30 seconds, but also I doubt he would hold out for much more than a minute. So I’ll say 30secs-1min

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Worse than he did on Invisible Hand

5 seconds to 15 seconds

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@breakofdawn: I really don't see how you're disagreeing with my comment tbh.

I said he'd last longer if he wasn't cocky about his own abilities and fought more carefully.

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#15  Edited By SheevSmacker

@macattack1 said:

I don’t think Knightfall Vader is much above how Anakin was towards the end of the invisible hand duel when he stopped holding back. Dooku at that point was already exhausted and he still lasted a good bunch of seconds. I can’t see a fresh Dooku going down in less than 30 seconds, but also I doubt he would hold out for much more than a minute. So I’ll say 30secs-1min

KFV relative to the Sheev by most viner opinon.

How Dooku can lasting 30 sec or more

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Dooku outright guts him, and easily. At his absolute strongest, Anakin was near-equaled by Obi-Wan, a Grievous tier opponent. An incensed Anakin only gained an indecisive edge over an exhausted, holding back Dooku via exploiting the latter's circumstantial confidence. Beforehand, Anakin was losing badly to Dooku even with his own relative peer (Obi-Wan) at his side.

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@macattack1 said:

I don’t think Knightfall Vader is much above how Anakin was towards the end of the invisible hand duel when he stopped holding back. Dooku at that point was already exhausted and he still lasted a good bunch of seconds. I can’t see a fresh Dooku going down in less than 30 seconds, but also I doubt he would hold out for much more than a minute. So I’ll say 30secs-1min

Dooku wasn't exhausted. That's a myth. He continually restored himself throughout the fight, including just before the opening salvo where Anakin wrecked him:

There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had...He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned. Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step,

Even if he weren't, that doesn't help Dooku's case. Several blows from Anakin are enough to completely drain Anakin. That's indicative in and of itself of a huge power gap, both in offensive power and reserves.

@kirkseven said:

@breakofdawn: I really don't see how you're disagreeing with my comment tbh.

I said he'd last longer if he wasn't cocky about his own abilities and fought more carefully.

Because cockiness had very little to do with it. Dooku quickly shed his own arrogance as soon as he felt Anakin's sheer strength in the Force. In the film, this happens right after the saber clash where Dooku taunts him. In the novel, this happens around the same point. Gillard himself tried to communicate this:

“We wanted to chop his head off … that wasn’t in the script, but we thought it needed to be that brutal,” Gillard said. “Dooku technically should have known he was going to lose. I mean, we tried to show it through the fight that suddenly he’s thinking ‘Oh my god, this kid is something else, I’m in trouble’, but I don’t know if that came across.”

Even if you ignore the novel in favour of the film, any arrogance Dooku had clearly disappeared the moment Anakin shoved him back and drove him backwards step by step.

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@breakofdawn:

Even if you ignore the novel in favour of the film, any arrogance Dooku had clearly disappeared the moment Anakin shoved him back and drove him backwards step by step.

I disagree, his mindset remains the same up until his hands get blitzed off.

No Caption Provided

Dooku's arrogance caused him to overextend and go for Anakins bait.

Its even listed as one of his weaknesses, so I'm not sure how one can argue it didn't play a role.

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@kirkseven said:

@breakofdawn:

Even if you ignore the novel in favour of the film, any arrogance Dooku had clearly disappeared the moment Anakin shoved him back and drove him backwards step by step.

I disagree, his mindset remains the same up until his hands get blitzed off.

No Caption Provided

Dooku's arrogance caused him to overextend and go for Anakins bait.

Its even listed as one of his weaknesses, so I'm not sure how one can argue it didn't play a role.

A quote that is contradicted by Gillard later on, who outright states that Dooku knows Anakin is going to beat him. A quote, I might add, that is also contradicted by Lucas, who states that the entire fight is a test by Sidious to determine if Anakin is stronger, not more cunning.

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@kirkseven said:

@breakofdawn:

Even if you ignore the novel in favour of the film, any arrogance Dooku had clearly disappeared the moment Anakin shoved him back and drove him backwards step by step.

I disagree, his mindset remains the same up until his hands get blitzed off.

No Caption Provided

Dooku's arrogance caused him to overextend and go for Anakins bait.

Its even listed as one of his weaknesses, so I'm not sure how one can argue it didn't play a role.

A quote that is contradicted by Gillard later on, who outright states that Dooku knows Anakin is going to beat him. A quote, I might add, that is also contradicted by Lucas, who states that the entire fight is a test by Sidious to determine if Anakin is stronger, not more cunning.

If anything, the quotes that happened closer to the initial making of the film when these ideas are still fresh in peoples minds probably represent the true events if conflicting ideas are presented later on.

People often forget or misremember, after presenting the first idea initially.

Lucas, who states that the entire fight is a test by Sidious to determine if Anakin is stronger, not more cunning.

Well yeah, Dooku's stats suggest he's the second most cunning Sith Lord between TPM and RoTJ with Sidious probably being above him.

I also remember Lucas saying Dooku was ordered to hold back by Sidious and that (per the script) Lucas had Dooku and Obi Wan grow exhausted half way in the duel.

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@kirkseven:

If anything, the quotes that happened closer to the initial making of the film when these ideas are still fresh in peoples minds probably represent the true events if conflicting ideas are presented later on.

Ironically, Gillard's original statement is the conflicting one. Lucas made it clear that Dooku was ordered to fight Anakin at his fullest, and if Anakin bested him, Palpatine would interfere. If Dooku held back out of either restraint or arrogance, the "test" would be worthless to Sidious. The Lucas-edited novel corroborates that, with Dooku quickly cutting loose:

These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

His later quote that I posted is actually more in-line with what Lucas set out.

Well yeah, Dooku's stats suggest he's the second most cunning Sith Lord between TPM and RoTJ with Sidious probably being above him.

I also remember Lucas saying Dooku was ordered to hold back by Sidious and that (per the script) Lucas had Dooku and Obi Wan grow exhausted half way in the duel.

That's not what he said. He said that Dooku needed to "test" him, meaning that he'd fight him to his fullest but would avoid killing him (not a major hindrance for a duelist as skilled Dooku):

No Caption Provided

As I stated above: Dooku holding back would make the test useless to Sidious. As for the script, Lucas himself doesn't particularly like using them, and usually altered them:

it's very hard on a piece of paper, a script, to get the full essence of what's going to actually happen or how well that's going to work on the screen or not on the screen, and so what I like to do is just accept that fact. When I actually see the thing play out on the screen, I'm gonna come up with other ideas about how to tell the story or where the blank spots are or things that aren't necessary that I cut out, which is a normal editing process. I just take that to the extreme.

Case in point: the original script had Dooku being disarmed partway through:

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Dooku outright guts him, and easily. At his absolute strongest, Anakin was near-equaled by Obi-Wan, a Grievous tier opponent. An incensed Anakin only gained an indecisive edge over an exhausted, holding back Dooku via exploiting the latter's circumstantial confidence. Beforehand, Anakin was losing badly to Dooku even with his own relative peer (Obi-Wan) at his side.

How is Obi-Wan a Grievous-tier opponent? He was pressured at the start but within 30 seconds of the fight Grievous had lost two of his hands, from here it would have only gotten easier for Obi-Wan.

I don't see how Anakin's fight against Obi-Wan is an anti-feat either tbh. Obi-Wan has trained Anakain and fought alongside him for 13 years. On top of this, Suresu (Obi Wan's Lightsaber Form) is much more stylistically advantageous against Djem So (Anakin's Lightsaber Form) than Dooku's Makashi.

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#23 frozen  Moderator

@subline: Mustafar Anakin was hindered. That's large part of the reason how Obi was able to do well. Realistically, an unhindered Anakin would have destroyed him.

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Dooku outright guts him, and easily.

How?

At his absolute strongest, Anakin was near-equaled by Obi-Wan, a Grievous tier opponent.

Movie>Script

Also Anakin was nowhere near his strongest infact I would argue he is weaker shown by a lot of evidenced

An incensed Anakin only gained an indecisive edge over an exhausted, holding back Dooku via exploiting the latter's circumstantial confidence.

What

Beforehand, Anakin was losing badly to Dooku even with his own relative peer (Obi-Wan) at his side.

No he wasn't Dooku barely did anything against Anakin and Anakin was pushing him back most of the fight with Dooku unable to put up a proper attack

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Greysentinel365

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Mustafar Anakin has zero quotes saying he's hindered and neither Lucas nor Gillard has ever made any distinction between KFV and MFV. Kenobi‘s just stronger than you think.

Anyway Dooku dies in 5-10 seconds depending on how much Anakin wants to torture him.

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@sheevsmacker: KFV is not on par with Sidious, despite being relatively close.

And Dooku has consistently lasted more than 30 seconds against Yoda, who is near as makes no difference in par with Sidious.

I don’t follow your argument, why would Dooku be incapable of lasting more than 30 seconds against KFV?

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Mustafar Anakin has zero quotes saying he's hindered and neither Lucas nor Gillard has ever made any distinction between KFV and MFV. Kenobi‘s just stronger than you think.

Actually there are several for one in the novel it mentions Anakin hadn't eaten or slept in days, it also mentions Anakin was conflicted as Obi-wan noted, he was much more arrogant than ever and Obi-wan knew inside out. Even despite this Obi-wan knew outright he was going to die

Anyway Dooku dies in 5-10 seconds depending on how much Anakin wants to torture him.

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@sheevsmacker: KFV is not on par with Sidious, despite being relatively close.

And Dooku has consistently lasted more than 30 seconds against Yoda, who is near as makes no difference in par with Sidious.

I don’t follow your argument, why would Dooku be incapable of lasting more than 30 seconds against KFV?

Observe

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#29 frozen  Moderator

Mustafar Anakin has zero quotes saying he's hindered and neither Lucas nor Gillard has ever made any distinction between KFV and MFV. Kenobi‘s just stronger than you think.

Anyway Dooku dies in 5-10 seconds depending on how much Anakin wants to torture him.

Kenobi is strong, but not enough to challenge a tier 9 who was arguably as strong as Sidious. There's quite a few sources illustrating hindered Anakin.

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#30  Edited By Wolfrazer

@frozen: That and in the movie, we see him literally crying. If that doesn't sound like he's conflicted, then I don't know what does, he's clearly not all there in the head or the dark side.

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#31 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: That and in the movie, we see him literally crying. If that doesn't sound like he's conflicted, then I don't know what does, he's clearly not all there in the head or the dark side.

Yeah. And for what it's worth, Hayden stated that he thinks Anakin's emotions were working against him in the duel.

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@frozen said:
@greysentinel365 said:

Mustafar Anakin has zero quotes saying he's hindered and neither Lucas nor Gillard has ever made any distinction between KFV and MFV. Kenobi‘s just stronger than you think.

Anyway Dooku dies in 5-10 seconds depending on how much Anakin wants to torture him.

Kenobi is strong, but not enough to challenge a tier 9 who was arguably as strong as Sidious. There's quite a few sources illustrating hindered Anakin.

Not to mention Kenobi himself mentioned Anakin was going to kill him

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@frozen said:
@greysentinel365 said:

Mustafar Anakin has zero quotes saying he's hindered and neither Lucas nor Gillard has ever made any distinction between KFV and MFV. Kenobi‘s just stronger than you think.

Anyway Dooku dies in 5-10 seconds depending on how much Anakin wants to torture him.

Kenobi is strong, but not enough to challenge a tier 9 who was arguably as strong as Sidious. There's quite a few sources illustrating hindered Anakin.

Nonsense.

Observe:

(My post from the Obi Wan vs Darth Sidious thread)

Obi Wan solos.

Overall, Kenobi has the right skills to win this just about every time.

Maybe Palpatine can take 1-2/10 if he intimidates and surprises Obi-Wan the way he did against the Council members, but even then, Obi-Wan is more refined master of Soresu than any of them are. Otherwise, both of them fought Maul and Savage simultaneously with Obi-Wan's performance being more impressive.

Unlike Sidious, who had to separate the brothers in order to kill Savage, Obi-Wan succeeded in piercing Savage's guard with Maul still in action, which shows a level of parity in lightsaber skill between Kenobi and Sidious with a possible advantage leaning to Obi-Wan.

Savage also managed to ram Sidious; so I think it is very possible for Obi-Wan's defenses to keep him in the fight until he exploits a vulnerable spot in Palpatine's lightsaber technique and drops him. Obi-Wan would win 9-10/10.

- Obi Wan outfought Maul and Savage at the same time together, while Darth Sidious had to separate them in order to beat the duo

- As an old man, Obi wan defeated Darth Maul in 3 seconds while Sidious needed to wait for an opening in Maul's defenses to beat him.

Mace Windu (superior to Sidious according to Lucas) questions the idea of him being more powerful than Obi Wan "That is so like you, Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"

Mace Windu also failed to kill a hindered General Grievous with his lightsaber while Obi Wan beat Grievous without the use of his lightsaber. Implying superiority.

- as a depowered old man, Obi Wan held his own against Darth Vader who had grown in power since ROTS in Legends and Canon

- Obi Wan defeated Mustafar Vader, who has been repeatedly stated to be the same tier Sidious

So Obi Wan should honestly be a high 9.

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Given a superior Anakin took 7 seconds to kill Drallig, who is vastly inferior to Dooku it's pretty clear his fight against Dooku was circumstantial.

I say Dooku lasts 1 to 2 minutes., closer to 1 though.

You think fight against the Doku are circumstatnial? intersting

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@kirkseven: I agree. Yoda didn't send Kenobi after Sidious because he didn't want Sidious to be utterly humiliated.

Why else do you think he became so insistent and concerned with leaving him behind on the invisible hand?

Fear of Obi Wan's power that's what.

And luck

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@sheevsmacker: It's the only logical explanation.

KFV, who is > Zonakin, took almost the same amount of time to kill Drallig that it took Zonakin to kill Dooku. Drallig is obviously fodder to Dooku, and KFV is superior to Zonakin, it makes no sense at all.

zonakin take 30 second to kill a dooku or no ?

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@sheevsmacker: Zonakin took 13 seconds to kill Dooku.

And Anakin was only fighting Drallig.

? how is only fight the drallig

he fighitng padawan of drallig at same time or no ?

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@sheevsmacker: He was choking him, it was hardly a distraction.

he can only using one hand against the dralig and he nromal use two hand

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a few seconds at most

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a few seconds at most

Now, that is an intriguing assertion. What leads you to that conclusion?