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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio

It is time for round 1 of my holiday season tourney.

@maestromage - Midnighter

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@geekryan - New 52 Mera

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Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No Time Manipulation
  4. No speed steal
  5. No reality warping
  6. No Power Copying/stealing.
  7. No BFR
  8. Summons, constructs or any other fodder can be no stronger than 616 Spider-man
  9. Summons, constructs or other fodder are limited to 25
  10. Cloning is limited to 10
  11. Telepathy is limited to mind reading and illusions.

Battleground

Large Island with no one but the fighters on the island. Fighters start on face to face each in the middle of the island

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Moderator
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#2 Posted by Amendment50 (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please.

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#3 Posted by JOVIOLMA (6672 posts) - - Show Bio

B R

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#4 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage would you mind going first? And is 3 posts each cool?

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#5 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5537 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag please!

Mera is a fantastic character, do her justice @geekryan!

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#6 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by XLR87T3 (10066 posts) - - Show Bio

My god, why is Mera so buxom?

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#8 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: You learnt well from the mr I experience

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#9 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by Vertigo- (17820 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

My god, why is Mera so buxom?

Cause Sejic draws her that hawt

OT: Tag. I have my own personal opinions, but I want to see how this plays out

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#11 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Yeah I can go first. And 3 posts sounds good.

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5ca9389143922 (596 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#13 Posted by XLR87T3 (10066 posts) - - Show Bio

Also tag

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#14 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: Cool! Is this New-52/Wildstorm Midnighter with doors?

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#15 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Yup, but there's no BFR don't worry. I don't plan on abusing them too much unless I need to.

I already have most of the feats I need so my post should hopefully be up by the end of today.

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#16 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter, "Night's Bringer of War"

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Bio:

Lucas Trent was experimented on and as a result, gained enhanced strength, durability, speed, and his most notable ability; the battle computer, which allows him to predict millions of possible scenarios in a battle and choose which one he wants.

Strength:

Midnighter has consistently displayed superhuman strength in his history:

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Scans 1-2: (backwards) Midnighter breaks a street lamp with a kick and uses it to lift a high-speed mid-sized vehicle over his head. Easily a multi-ton feat (New 52)
Scan 3: Midnighter casually throws a vehicle engine with one hand (New 52)

Scan 4: Midnighter throws a fridge through a wall (Wildstorm)

Though Midnighter has superhuman strength, his raw strength feats aren't nearly as impressive as his striking feats. This is in large part down to Midnighter's skill and his Battle Computer (which I'll get into later) allowing him to maximize his damage:

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Scan 1: Midnighter displaces a large amount of snow with a single punch (New 52)

Scan 2: Midnighter chops a vampire's head in half with his hand (New 52)

Scan 3: Midnighter uses his staff to seriously injure parasite after he had absorbed Midnighter's powers (including his Battle Computer (New 52).

Scan 4: Midnighter kicks a man's head off casually (Wildstorm)

Scan 5: Midnighter punches through one guy's chest and another guy's head with one strike (New 52)

Although these are his fairly low-end striking feats, they should still show that Midnighter possesses a striking force to be reckoned with, which is what has allowed him to harm durable opponents. He shouldn't have much trouble harming Mera from what I know of her.

Durability:

Midnighter is no slouch in the durability department either, and can take a good amount of damage before going down:

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Scan 1: Midnighter tanks being run over by a large vehicle from the future (Wildstorm)

Scan 2: Midnighter tanks being hit hard enough to be sent flying into a van. denting it and tilting it slightly (Wildstorm)

Scan 3: Midnighter tanks being slammed into the ground by Skallox hard enough to lift up several small pieces of the ground (New 52)

These durability feats should display that Midnighter doesn't get hurt easily. However, even if he does get hurt, he can work through it incredibly well:

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Scan 1-2: Despite being temporarily put down by the 6 killing sounds, Midnighter literally gets up the next page completely fine and destroys his own ears, confident that they will heal fine (it's also worth noting that individual killing sounds were one shotting people, but Midnighter took all 6 and wasn't KO'd) (New 52)

Scan 3: While man easting bugs turn the people around him into skeletons in a few panels, Midnighter (he's the blonde guy in the bottom left) is fine due to his healing factor (Wildstorm)

Midnighter also has redundant organs in case any of his organs fail, and he can also turn off his pain receptors, so fighting through extreme is easy for him. All in all, Midnighter is very difficult to put down.

Speed and the Battle Computer:

Midnighter has very impressive combat speed. Though some of this can be attributed to his precog through the Battle Computer (BC), he is very fast even without it. Having said that, sometimes it can be difficult to gauge what is raw speed, and what is precog so I will be putting these feats together:

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Scan 1: Casually catches an arrow fired at the back of his head (Wildstorm)

Scan 2: Midnighter easily avoids shots from a laser pistol fired from someone with "the best gun enhancements money can buy" (Wildstorm)

Scan 3: Midnighter blitzes a supersonic superhuman (Wildstorm)

Scan 4: Midnighter avoids all shots from a Deadshot wielding two automatic weapons in an open space (New 52)

Scan 5: Midnighter has the speed and precision to accurate deflect a tank shell with a kick (Wildstorm).

It's worth noting that New 52 Midnighter has the ability to drastically increase his speed for 1 second, but I'll save those for later in the debate ;).

Now. let's get onto his most famous ability: the Battle Computer. This battle computer can immediately recognise the abilities and enhancements of anyone Midnighter, and it calculates millions of possible scenarios. Midnighter then simply chooses which scenario he wants:

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Scan 1-6: Midnighter explaining his powers on multiple occasions (4 is N52, the rest are Wildstorm). Note how it is stated multiple times that Midnighter goes through a million possible scenarios (or even all possible scenarios)

Overall, the BC is incredibly powerful and is rarely wrong (especially in Wildstorm). Additionally, Mera doesn't have very unpredictable powers, so Midnighter should have no issues predicting her every move.

Skill and Gear:

Midnighter is also a very skilled fighter (though again, it is also hard to know how much the BC helps). I don't think this will be very important in this fight so I'll keep it short:

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Scan 1: Midnighter beating Dick Grayson H2H (New 52)

Scan 2: Midnighter fighting evenly Harry Tanner who was touted as the best swordsman on the planet. Harry tagged him later in the fight, but that was only due to Harry's power to deceive people (New 52)

These should suffice to show that Midnighter is an incredibly skilled combatant

He also has some gear that I thought I should highlight:

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Scan 1-3: Midnighter carries a variety of bladed weapons if he needs to use them, as well as explosives. He also has his expandable staff. (Midnighter also has throwable weapons such as shurikens for ranged attacks)

However, his most notable gear is a piece of tech called "doors". If Midnighter says (or thinks) "Doors" he can create a teleportation door that allows him to freely teleport during battle. This will mainly be used to avoid attacks and improve his mobility.

Initial Thoughts on the battle

  • Midnighter should be able to hang with Mera in physicals
  • He is also faster than her
  • On top of that, he has the skill advantage as well as precog
  • This combined with his mobility due to doors means that Mera will find it hard to tag Midnighter if he doesn't want to get hit

Midnighter should be able to avoid Mera's attacks and he will eventually put her down with his fist or his weapons.

@geekryan Your Move

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#18 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: Nice opener! I'll get started tonight but may only be able to post by this weekend because I have a final exam on Thursday.

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#19 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: That's cool. I myself have work I should be doing lmao.

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#20 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #1

Mera, Queen of Atlantis

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Introduction

Here is her DC Comics page, and here is her CV page.

Mera's only standard gear is her trident.

Many of the feats I will present take place during AquamanVol 8 (2016), Justice League Vol 3 (2016) and Mera: Queen of Atlantis (2018). Mera's mini-series took place in 2018, after issue #33 of Aquaman Vol 8.

Basically, an impenetrable magical barrier known as the Crown of Thorns was erected around Atlantis. Aquaman/Arthur is seemingly killed. Mera spends days on end attempting to break through the barrier but to no avail. She was weak and spent, and this continued assault against the barrier drew the attention of the Justice League. Mourning for her husband, tired from her assault against the barrier, and annoyed at the intervention of the Justice League, she lashed out against them. They made up, and Batman invited Mera to join the JL after witnessing how powerful she truly is.

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However, Mera's stay with the JL only lasted a few issues before she enlisted the help of Garth/Tempest to break through the barrier once she found out that Arthur was in fact alive. Garth gave Mera a pendant that allowed her to enter the barrier, but because the pendant was damaged, she came under a curse, lost the ability to breathe underwater, and she basically almost died. Aquaman and co provided a temporary fix, but she could only fully recover by spending time on land. Aquaman broke the barrier and brought her to land where she could recover and regain her strength. This is when Mera's 6 issue mini-series begins. Throughout her series, she is stated to be still weak and not at full strength:

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For all the feats that take place during the times where she was not at full power, I will indicate so. Now let's get to the good stuff.

Powers/Abilities

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Enhanced Senses
  • Hydrokinesis
  • Advanced H2H combat
  • Trained Assassin
  • Skilled Leader & Tactician

Feats

Important to note is that contrary to popular belief, there is not a significant power difference between Mera on land vs. in water. However, Mera is obviously more agile and fast when in water.

Strength

  • Lifts and tosses a boulder significantly bigger than herself (link)
  • Rips up a tank and tosses its turret at a helicopter (link)
  • Breaks open a thick metal door (link)
  • Breaks a man's arm very casually (link)
  • Holding the upper hand against Black Manta and cracks his visor with a punch (link) ***Note: Black Manta is shown to be on par with Aquaman on multiple occasions***
  • Surprises Superman and staggers him with a strike while holding back (link)
  • Then proceeds to grab him and toss him into the air (link)

Durability

  • Bulletproof due to her superhuman durability + scale armour (link)
  • Takes a punch and a kick from Black Lantern Wonder Woman, who is essentially bloodlusted (one, two)
  • Tanks Martian Manhunter's Martian Vision, which is on par with Superman's heat vision (link)
  • Swims through lava (link) *Note: lava can reach temperatures of over 2000 F)

Additionally, Mera is able to withstand massive amounts of pressure due to her underwater adaptation. There is essentially no maximum depth or pressure she can't swim in.

Speed

Most of Mera's speed feats are in water, which isn't very relevant for our fight. However, I'll just post this feat where Mera says she can swim faster than Aquaman, who can at least swim at speeds of Mach 5.

Mera, like Aquaman, can leap incredible distances into the air (one, two).

That's pretty much it for this section, but her speed will become more apparent in the Notable Fights section through scaling.

Hydrokinesis

This is what Mera is known for. Her hydrokinesis is insane in power, range, scale, and versatility.

  • Holds up an ocean and precisely attacks multiple targets (link)
  • Holds back waves from destroying a boat (link)
  • Holds back Ocean Master's massive tidal wave (link)
  • Tosses Aquaman away (link)
  • Fights off several Trench creatures (link)
  • She can make constructs with her water (one, two)
  • Smashes Martian Manhunter against a structure (link)
  • Launches Aquaman into the stratosphere (link)

1) Fending off multiple Trench creatures while surrounded

2) Using a sphere of water to stop a flood from engulfing Atlantis (city-level feat)

3) Her assault against the magical barrier was shaking the ocean floor...

4) Which also had a side-effect of creating a massive tidal wave that drew the attention of the JL and required The Flash and 2 Green Lanterns to stop. This was while Mera was weakened after days of continuous assault against the barrier and she didn't even directly or purposely cause this tidal wave.

5) Her water spheres are capable of blocking the attack from a Sea God known as Captain Gall

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She has also shown that she can create body-insulating barriers of water on herself and others. These barriers can completely stop all external sources of water from touching the body, as well as withstand the pressure of the ocean depths:

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Last but not least, we have her internal hydrokinesis, which allows her to drain the water directly from her opponents, essentially causing rapid dehydration:

  • Drains a man (link)
  • Tells Black Manta that she can take the water from his body and flood his lungs (link)
  • Drains another man (link)
  • KOs 3 soldiers with accelerated dehydration (link) ***Also fun to note: she can sense the proximity of water***
  • Takes down a tank from within using her hydrokinesis (link)

Draining an opponent isn't her go-to move, but it is quite standard for her against opponents it will be effective against.

Notable Fights

Mera's most notable fights are against Ocean Master (on two occasions) and the Justice League. On all 3 of these occasions, Mera was in her weakened state. She also had a brief fight against Black Lantern Wonder Woman at the end of the Pre-52 era that I will show as well.

Here is her first fight against Orm/Ocean Master:

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She did end up losing this fight, but there are a few important things to note. First, this was the very first fight she had after being weakened by the magical curse. Second, she still managed to trade blows with Orm. And third, Orm was not holding back and was about to kill Mera if not for the intervention of his son.

How dangerous is Ocean Master? Well...

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He is shown to be roughly on par with Aquaman in the New-52, but here is his CV page if you want more info on him. New-52 Aquaman is somewhere along the lines of upper-end of the mid tier to lower-end of the high tiers.

Now for her 2nd fight against Ocean Master. It took place in water, but she was still weakened, and she beat him this time:

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Her superior speed is demonstrated on multiple occasions, from dodging his lightning, blitzing him and appearing as a blur with after-images, and dodging his trident. She also pretty much beats the hell out of him in CQC, and he even had the advantage of a sea creature attacking her too. I'm not claiming she's a lightning timer, since it is magical lightning and never compared to real lightning, but it is still pretty darn fast. She wins the fight by using her internal hydrokinesis to stop him from breathing and then grabbing his trident and putting it to his throat.

Next up, her fight against Black Lantern Wonder Woman:

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BL Wonder Woman is immortal and fighting without morals. She held the upper hand against Mera at first, but then Mera used her hydrokinesis and took the advantage. Mera stabs WW through her chest, which would have been the end of it if not for the immortality. Wonder Woman recovers, gains the upper hand again, and then Mera becomes a Red Lantern. Being able to tank hits from Wonder Woman and land a kill shot on her is VERY impressive.

Last but not least, we have Mera's fight against the Justice League. Mera was weakened at the time not from the magical curse but from a continuous assault against the magical barrier around Atlantis for days on end. I posted it before but here's proof that she was indeed not at full strength.

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  • Knocks back Superman and Wonder Woman and traps them in two water spheres
  • Pulls the rings off the two Green Lanterns
  • Stops Flash in his tracks and instantly dehydrates him
  • Launches Cyborg into the air
  • Reacts to a surprise attack from Batman and puts him in a one-handed choke hold

Clearly they were holding back and not fighting at the fullest of their capabilities; Mera isn't some high-tier teambuster. However, it is still very impressive nonetheless that she single-handedly took them down on her own, and even Batman & Green Lantern acknowledged that. This is somewhat of an outlier for her, but not really if we take into consideration that Mera was fighting seriously and the JL were not. They were also fighting on water, where Mera holds a significant advantage. Mera also had some knowledge on the JL from Aquaman but claimed he didn't teach her enough about them to play on their strengths/weaknesses and take them down (proof).

Counters

Strength

Scans 1-2: (backwards) Midnighter breaks a street lamp with a kick and uses it to lift a high-speed mid-sized vehicle over his head. Easily a multi-ton feat (New 52)

This definitely isn't a pure lifting strength feat. He is using the lamp post as leverage. Also, the physics of this makes no sense at all lol.

Scan 3: Midnighter casually throws a vehicle engine with one hand (New 52)

Hardly impressive since the average weight of a car engine is 500 lbs.

Scan 4: Midnighter throws a fridge through a wall (Wildstorm)

Even less impressive as the average weight of a fridge is 250 lbs.

Scan 1: Midnighter displaces a large amount of snow with a single punch (New 52)

Mehhh.

Scan 2: Midnighter chops a vampire's head in half with his hand (New 52)

Now this is more impressive, but what is the durability of a vampire like?

Scan 3: Midnighter uses his staff to seriously injure parasite after he had absorbed Midnighter's powers (including his Battle Computer (New 52).

Cool, but I don't think his piercing durability is anything impressive.

Scan 4: Midnighter kicks a man's head off casually (Wildstorm)

Scan 5: Midnighter punches through one guy's chest and another guy's head with one strike (New 52)

Not too sure about the "casual" part... These would be more impressive if it was against people with enhanced durability.

Durability

I won't address each individual scan. His durability is impressive and definitely superhuman, but does he have any feats to suggest he can tank strikes of Mera's caliber, or even tank attacks from her hydrokinesis? Keep in mind that her hydrokinesis can smack around Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, BL Wonder Woman, Cyborg, etc.

His healing factor is good too but he won't really have a chance to quickly heal from anything in our fight. Unless his healing factor allows him to rehydrate himself very quickly?

Speed/Battle Computer

These are all good speed feats but most high-end street levellers could replicate them. Mera does lack the feats while on land, but her scaling should put her significantly higher than Midnighter in terms of speed.

It's worth noting that New 52 Midnighter has the ability to drastically increase his speed for 1 second, but I'll save those for later in the debate ;).

Interesting. Feats?

Scan 1-6: Midnighter explaining his powers on multiple occasions (4 is N52, the rest are Wildstorm). Note how it is stated multiple times that Midnighter goes through a million possible scenarios (or even all possible scenarios)

Overall, the BC is incredibly powerful and is rarely wrong (especially in Wildstorm). Additionally, Mera doesn't have very unpredictable powers, so Midnighter should have no issues predicting her every move.

You aren't entirely wrong, but has he ever fought someone similar to Mera before? I can imagine her hydrokinesis being predicted and accounted for, but she is quite versatile in its uses. Internal hydrokinesis is something he would not be able to see or predict, so this would be something he has no defence against. Once she decides to use it, he can't do anything to stop it.

Skill/Gear

Scan 1: Midnighter beating Dick Grayson H2H (New 52)

Scan 2: Midnighter fighting evenly Harry Tanner who was touted as the best swordsman on the planet. Harry tagged him later in the fight, but that was only due to Harry's power to deceive people (New 52)

These should suffice to show that Midnighter is an incredibly skilled combatant

I definitely won't argue that he is more skilled than Mera. However, Mera is a highly-trained assassin and warrior, so she isn't void of any skill. She is especially proficient with her trident, which is a weapon I can't imagine Midnighter has faced in the past.

Scan 1-3: Midnighter carries a variety of bladed weapons if he needs to use them, as well as explosives. He also has his expandable staff. (Midnighter also has throwable weapons such as shurikens for ranged attacks)

Mera being bulletproof makes a lot of these useless.

However, his most notable gear is a piece of tech called "doors". If Midnighter says (or thinks) "Doors" he can create a teleportation door that allows him to freely teleport during battle. This will mainly be used to avoid attacks and improve his mobility.

Feel free to provide feats for these :)

Midnighter should be able to avoid Mera's attacks and he will eventually put her down with his fist or his weapons.

His weapons are pretty much useless against her, and he lacks the strength to really harm her.

Strategy

The island we are fighting on highly favours Mera. The island is completely surrounded by water, and it has water on it as well. Even in the middle of the island where we start, there are water sources nearby. The starting distance isn't indicated, so I will assume it is the standard 10 feet.

Mera and Midnighter have never encountered each other, and AFAIK, neither of them know of the other. This puts us on even ground. However, based on what I know about Midnighter, he tends to excel when he has prep. You can prove me wrong, but I do believe he isn't as efficient against someone he knows nothing about.

Mera will be very willing to go for the kill. She does not hold back unless she needs to or is told to by Aquaman/JL. Only after recently joining the JL has she taken the heroic route in terms of not killing. Despite this, she has killed many times in the past and she is a trained assassin.

Midnighter has pretty good strength and durability, but they are still inferior to Mera. I'd be willing to give the edge to Midnighter in speed, but only on feats alone since Mera has limited feats on land. Based on her scaling though, she is of a similar level to Ocean Master and Aquaman, which is above Midnighter. All of his gear will be useless against Mera since she is bulletproof.

His only real advantages are his skill, his precognition, and his doors. He could avoid some of her hydrokinetic attacks, but the sheer power and scale of the water she can manipulate leads me to believe that the area will quickly fill with large amounts of water. Once that happens, his mobility is severely reduced and it will make it much harder for him to avoid her attacks.

This fight can go one of two ways:

1) CQC. If Midnighter immediately goes for CQC, he would have the upper hand through his speed and skill. I don't anticipate Mera actually being able to strike him physically, but Midnighter also doesn't have the strength to really take her out in a few strikes.

2) Range. If Midnighter keeps his distance or Mera decides to keep her distance, she will start assaulting him with water. With a combo of his speed, Battle Computer, and doors, he could probably avoid most of her attacks. But the longer the battle goes on, the more water will be drawn to the area, so Mera's attacks will become bigger and harder to dodge. Eventually, the area will have too much water for him to efficiently dodge her attacks. And Mera will not tire out, seeing as she can continuously assault a magical barrier for days on end.

Either way, if Midnighter starts to physically dominate Mera (and he will definitely require many good strikes against Mera to do any real damage to her) and she realizes she is taking more hits than she can give, she will use her internal hydrokinesis against Midnighter and instantly dehydrate him. This is something that is pretty much instant and unavoidable, so once this happens, it is game over for Midnighter. It is also something his Battle Computer will not be able to anticipate. Once this happens, Mera can stab him with her trident or continue to assault him with water attacks until he is KO'd or dies. She could also just trap him in a water sphere and win via incap.

Conclusion

  • Midnighter is a formidable opponent, but discounting his outliers, he is an upper street-tier character at best. Mera, on the other hand, is easily in the upper mid-tier category, bordering on high tier.
  • Mera holds a huge environmental advantage.
  • Mera also holds the advantage in strength and durability
  • Midnighter definitely has the skill advantage, but this won't be enough for him to secure a win
  • Based on feats, Midnighter also has the advantage in speed; if we take scaling into account, Mera surpasses him.
  • His gear won't do anything to her
  • His Battle Computer and doors will make it difficult for Mera to tag him with her attacks, but the longer the fight goes on, the more water there will be, and the bigger her attacks will get, making it harder to avoid as the fight goes on.
  • Internal hydrokinesis can be used to instantly dehydrate Midnighter, and she will use this the moment she starts to get dominated in CQC
  • Mera can also move the battle to the water, in which case it becomes GG for Midnighter.

Your move!

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#21 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: my post is up! Sorry in advance, it is quite long for an opener

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#22 Edited by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: The length is fine lol. I’ll have my post up sometime this week.

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#23 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Thr length is fine lol. I’ll have my post up sometime this week.

Sounds good!

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#24 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Sorry for the long wait. I've had a lot of work to do but now I'm done with Uni for Christmas so I'll have more time to spend on CaVs. My post will be up sometime today.

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#25 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: Awesome! I'm done the semester now too, so same here!

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#26 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: I had almost finished my post and then my laptop just stopped connecting to the internet and I couldn’t finish it. Tried to fix it but it’s 2AM so I’m going to bed lmao. Assuming I can connect my laptop to the internet, I’ll finish the post tomorrow (or I suppose today).

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#27 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: I had almost finished my post and then my laptop just stopped connecting to the internet and I couldn’t finish it. Tried to fix it but it’s 2AM so I’m going to bed lmao. Assuming I can connect my laptop to the internet, I’ll finish the post tomorrow (or I suppose today).

Lol no worries!

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#28 Edited by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

The Midnighter, Midnight Strikes Twice

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Counters I - Midnighter's Striking

Well, I have to say, Mera is certainly more impressive than I thought she was. However, that doesn't mean I don't have anything from Midnighter to deal with. I would like both the voters and my opponent to note the fact that almost all the strength feats I showed were from Midnighter's New 52 incarnation. That happened because I wanted to go fairly easy on the feats to see what my opponent brought (it was a lot lmao) and Midnighter was considerably weaker strength wise (well, everything wise to be honest) in the New 52 compared to his original Wildstorm incarnation. I'm saying this because the feats I'm going to show might seem like outliers compared to what I showed in my last post, but you do have to factor in the fact that Midnighter was much more powerful in Wildstorm than he is in the New 52. With that out of the way, onto the actual feats:

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Scan 1: Midnighter goes H2H with Jack Hawksmoor and does damage with his hits (Jack no sold falling into an exploding Nuke) (Wildstorm)

Scan 2: Midnighter bursts Apollo's eardrums by hitting them. To give an idea of his durability, Apollo has taken the concentrated force of "10 Hiroshimas" to the face and not been KO'd (Wildstorm)

Scan 3: Midnighter blitzes and kills one of the children of Gamorra with raw physicals. These guys were capable of doing things like this:

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and tangoing with Apollo in groups (Wildstorm)

Scan 4: Midnighter chokes out Winter, who was able to physically contend with Apollo and other characters of that calibre (Wildstorm)

Scan 5: Midnighter staggers Apollo with a punch. Though he did no real damage, it's still impressive given how Apollo tanked reentry whilst exhausted and was fine (New 52)

Scan 6: Midnighter staggers New 52 Etrigan who was comparable to Apollo (New 52)

As you can see, Midnighter has consistently shown the ability to hurt very durable characters with his blows. Even in the New 52 he can stagger powerful characters. With these feats, I think he shouldn't struggle to hurt Mera. He's not going to one shot her or anything like that, but she'll go down to his hits eventually.

Counters II - Midnighter's Durability

I'll freely admit that Mera is pretty strong physically, but Midnighter has taken hits from strong characters before:

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Scan 1: The rogue doctor amps himself to the point where he can overpower Apollo, and then Midnighter tanks getting kicked hundreds of feet away (Wildstorm)

Scan 2: Midnighter tanks a punch from Hawksmoor, who can do this

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to one of the children of Gamorra (Wildstorm)

Scan 3: Midnighter tanks being palmed into the ground by Maul. Now, Maul was holding back here as he didn't want to kill Midnighter, but we're still talking about a guy who can increase the mass of his hands to that of aircraft carriers (around 100,000 tonnes) without too much trouble (Wildstorm)

Scan 4: Midnighter tanks a casual kick from Sebastian, who overpowered Mr Majestic when enraged (who in turn can move planets). Now, this is a high-end feat for sure, but I don't think it's an outlier given Midnighter's other feats and the fact that Sebastian clearly wasn't going anywhere close to all out (Wildstorm)

Scan 5: Midnighter tanks a punch from Apollo, who has feats like this:

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as well as things like bull rushing through a docking bay that was the size of a continent and physically matching PC Cap Atom (Wildstorm)

Scan 6: Midnighter tanks being thrown so hard he is sent flying through 4 cars (and this was immediately after he was exploded out of the top of a skyscraper and fell all the way to the ground) (Wildstorm)

Now, I'm not going to address each individual strength feat you showed. I think most if not all of them could be replicated by people I've shown Midnighter taking hits from. The only one which could cause issues is her feat against Superman, but that definitely seems like a high-end feat. Her smacking Clark around like that when Arthur couldn't even do that to Wonder Woman (let alone Superman) whilst holding back seems a bit off. I suppose it's fine as a high end if we say that she didn't do any real damage to him. But in that case, I'll raise you Midnighter's high end of tanking a kick from Sebastian.

As the above feats show, Midnighter can clearly take a hit, and this combined with his healing factor which I showed off in my first post means that he will be very hard to put down with force. (don't worry, I'm gonna get to that good ol' dehydration in a bit)

Counters III - Midnighter's Speed

This is one area where I think Midnighter should have an advantage. He has shown impressive speed even outside the use of the battle computer:

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Scan 1: Midnighter takes down Impetus without the use of the battle computer. This is so impressive because no-one in the Authority or StormWatch could deal with Impetus' speed, including the likes of Swift who can outrun explosions, and Apollo can do this

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Around the world in 30 seconds (also note one of the children of Gammora keeping pace with him). And yet Midnighter took Impetus down with no precog (Wildstorm)

Scan 2: Midnighter blitzes the doctor and crushes his throat before he or Apollo could react, and I already talked about Apollo's speed (I know it's travel speed, but it still requires a certain amount of reaction so he doesn't fly into mountains or buildings or a plane or whatever). (Wildstorm)

Scan 3: Midnighter avoids a bullrush from Apollo (Wildstorm)

Scan 4: Midnighter blitzes one of the children of Gamorra who were comparable to Apollo in speed. (Wildstorm)

However, given Mera's ability to hang with high tiers in speed, I doubt Midnighter's ability to completely dance her around her using speed. However, I do still want to talk about his speed bursts, because I glossed over them in my first post:

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Scan 1-2: (backwards) Here Midnighter explains his speed bursts. Basically, he drastically increases his speed for one second. In the above feat, Midnighter basically blitzes a speedster who claimed to be almost as fast as the flash. His actual speed his dubious as we only have this statement to go off (we don't know if he was just boasting if he actually knows how fast the flash is etc.), but it is still impressive nonetheless. He has used his speed bursts to perform full-on speedster feats. One such instance is when he was captured by Amanda Waller and tied to a chair that was bolted to the ground. He then proceeded to vibrate a screw out of his chair (by vibrating his body) every time Waller blinked. (New 52)

With his speed bursts he gets a massive boost of speed, and if you wanted some pure scaling feats, both Midnighter and Apollo could keep up with post-crisis Captain Atom, who in turn can keep up with high tiers similarly to Mera:

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Looking at quantifiable feats, Midnighter should have the advantage, and if we look at pure scaling speed feats, then Midnighter still isn't behind Mera.

Counters IV - More Gear Stuff

Feel free to provide feats for these :)

Ok :)

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This is a basic explanation of how they work. Midnighter simply says "door" and he can open a portal to anywhere he wants on earth. When he uses them it looks like this:

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There are a couple other things to note about doors. For one, they can be made to be very large:

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They can be large enough to fit an entire space station through (also a nice strength feat for Apollo)

In addition, they can be formed around people, so you don't need to push someone through a door to teleport them. Midnighter can also open multiple at once (and pretty quickly at that):

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Scan 1: Doors being opened on multiple people at the same time (Wildstorm)

Scan 2: Midnighter going through multiple doors so fast that he never stays in one place for more than 1/8th of a second (Wildstorm)

Another potentially useful piece of equipment that Midnighter possesses is "Radio-telepathy"

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This is something that the Authority to communicate over distances telepathically due to a nanobot given to them by the engineer. The interesting thing about this tech is that you can send telepathic messages to someone even if they don't have the nanobot (they just can't send anything back).

Counters V - Actual Counters and How Midnighter wins

Scan 2: Midnighter chops a vampire's head in half with his hand (New 52)

Now this is more impressive, but what is the durability of a vampire like?

Gotta tell ya, I reread the comic and they had none lol.

Cool, but I don't think his piercing durability is anything impressive.

That was a mistake on my part. I meant to say that Parasite had absorbed his healing factor, not his battle computer, and I was trying to highlight Midnighter's ability put Parasite down for some time despite the impressive healing factor.

His healing factor is good too but he won't really have a chance to quickly heal from anything in our fight. Unless his healing factor allows him to rehydrate himself very quickly?

Don't see it helping in any way against dehydration, but everything else? Totally. The guy was able to get up 4 pages after getting his neck snapped:

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You aren't entirely wrong, but has he ever fought someone similar to Mera before? I can imagine her hydrokinesis being predicted and accounted for, but she is quite versatile in its uses. Internal hydrokinesis is something he would not be able to see or predict

One of the functions of the battle computer lets him instantly know someone's abilities, so having never fought someone like Mera shouldn't be an issue. And her versatility in its uses shouldn't be any challenge at all. The feats of a battle computer are pretty crazy. Midnighter was able to accurately predict the geopolitical consequeces of the Authority's actions for at least two weeks into the future; when someone came to his house to attack him, Midnighter knew he was coming hours beforehand and left the guy a note in the door; when StormWatch was about to teleport in front of the Authority, Midnighter knew it even when the Engineer (a technopath of the highest calibre) and various other members with super senses didn't appear to sense anything coming. Midnighter himself states that he can predict every possible outcome

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so given that you've already conceded that he will be able to know her abilities, I am utterly unconvinced by the idea that Mera could come up with a way to use her powers that Midnighter has not already predicted. Especially as dehydration isn't even that crazy of a use of hydrokinesis.

Mera being bulletproof makes a lot of these useless.

Fair.

However, based on what I know about Midnighter, he tends to excel when he has prep. You can prove me wrong, but I do believe he isn't as efficient against someone he knows nothing about.

Uhh, not really. Midnighter rarely preps for battles. Most of his fights are random encounters, and even when he knows a fight is coming, he doesn't tend to bring anything extra. When he fought StormWatch and took down Winter and later impetus he had no prep (heck he had to battle computer against Impetus); When he basically solo'd the Authority, he didn't use prep he just beat them down; When he fought the children of Gammora he had no prep; Midnighter isn't really a prepper because he doesn't need it, the battle computer basically gives him auto prep (tactics wise). It's also worth noting that Midnighter is a pretty tactical thinker even without the BC:

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And you're forgetting one thing. He does know something about Mera. He knows all of her powers and abilities and what she can do with them. He may not know her personality or things like that, but he already knows everything he needs to know just by looking at her.

Midnighter is a formidable opponent, but discounting his outliers, he is an upper street-tier character at best.

Absolutely not. If we are speaking about New 52 Midnighter, I'd probably agree with you (though you could argue New 52 Midnighter to be Mid Tier due to speed bursts), but Wildstorm Midnighter is definitely not street level. I would go on to say why, but I think my post has said all that needs to be said.

Now, onto how Midnighter can (and therefore will) win.

As I have demonstrated, Midnighter has consistently demonstrated the striking to hurt characters of Mera's level, and also the durability to tank attacks from her (though not a large amount in quick succession). This combined with his (arguably) superior speed and greater skill on top of his battle computer means that he will eventually put Mera down in a physical confrontation. If she tries to use big AOE water attacks, he can simply door himself out of the way, or even use doors to redirect her attacks elsewhere. This would also allow him to get around your strategy of Mera eventually flooding the island with water as he could just BFR the water off of the Island. However, there is one hole in my plan:

Either way, if Midnighter starts to physically dominate Mera (and he will definitely require many good strikes against Mera to do any real damage to her) and she realizes she is taking more hits than she can give, she will use her internal hydrokinesis against Midnighter and instantly dehydrate him. This is something that is pretty much instant and unavoidable, so once this happens, it is game over for Midnighter.

I agree that this is how the fight would probably go if Midnighter could do nothing about her dehydration. Fortunately, I know of a few things that could help him out. First of all, he can use his radio telepathy as a distraction. Mera's hydrokinesis must require some concentration, and I imagine getting telepathically sent images of Midnighter having sex with his husband would be pretty shocking and distracting (before you ask "has Midnighter done this before", the answer (I think lol) is no. However, it has been shown that radio telepathy can be used to transmit messages/images to people who don't have the tech like when the Engineer used it to ask the whole planet to vote. Thus, this strategy is possible and given that I can think of it, I don't think it would be any stretch for the battle computer to think of it). This would only be temporary, but it should be enough of a distraction to stop Mera's dehydration for a moment, and in that moment Midnighter can use his speed burst to deliver the finishing blows. On top of this, he can also use doors against her, by either teleporting her or teleporting himself to somewhere else on the island. I am also assuming that Mera at the least needs to be able to see what she is using her hydrokinesis on to be effective, so teleporting her a few hundred metres away facing the opposite direction should free Midnighter from her grasp. Oh, and as for her trapping him in a water sphere, no reason he can't just door himself out.

Conclusion

  • Midnighter has the striking to put Mera down eventually
  • His speed skill and prediction, as well as doors, should allow him to avoid getting hit
  • Should he get hit, he has the durability to tank a couple hits and can heal from them easily
  • He can use doors and radio-telepathy to temporarily get around her dehydration whilst he ends the fight
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#29 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan post is finally up lol. Sorry for the delay

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#30 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: No problem! I should have mine up in a few days

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#31 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

Mera - Post #2 - Midnight Technically Only Strikes Once...

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Midnighter's Striking

Well, I have to say, Mera is certainly more impressive than I thought she was. However, that doesn't mean I don't have anything from Midnighter to deal with. I would like both the voters and my opponent to note the fact that almost all the strength feats I showed were from Midnighter's New 52 incarnation. That happened because I wanted to go fairly easy on the feats to see what my opponent brought (it was a lot lmao) and Midnighter was considerably weaker strength wise (well, everything wise to be honest) in the New 52 compared to his original Wildstorm incarnation. I'm saying this because the feats I'm going to show might seem like outliers compared to what I showed in my last post, but you do have to factor in the fact that Midnighter was much more powerful in Wildstorm than he is in the New 52. With that out of the way, onto the actual feats:

Fair enough! I'm glad you acknowledge that Mera is impressive ;)

Let's see what you got!

Scan 1: Midnighter goes H2H with Jack Hawksmoor and does damage with his hits (Jack no sold falling into an exploding Nuke) (Wildstorm)

Jack's powers increase significantly while in a city, and in this fight, he wasn't in a city nor was he anywhere close to his full strength. In his Wildstorm run, Jack couldn't even survive outside of a city for long and was severely weakened as a result. Being able to take damage from Midnighter while not in a city isn't impressive at all.

I'm not sure about the "Jack no sold falling into an exploding nuke" feat, but I'm almost certain it was while he was at full strength and in a city. That's also very much energy durability as opposed to physical durability.

Scan 2: Midnighter bursts Apollo's eardrums by hitting them. To give an idea of his durability, Apollo has taken the concentrated force of "10 Hiroshimas" to the face and not been KO'd (Wildstorm)

The scan itself indicates that Apollo has eardrums just like anyone else and that the same amount of force can cause them to burst. And again, energy durability ≠ physical durability. Apollo also has fluctuations in his power levels based on the amount of solar energy he has stored within him.

This feat is also an outlier because Apollo is easily a high-tier capable of destroying city blocks, surviving in the Earth's core, and surviving the vacuum of space.

Scan 3: Midnighter blitzes and kills one of the children of Gamorra with raw physicals. These guys were capable of doing things like this:

and tangoing with Apollo in groups (Wildstorm)

This isn't a clear-cut example of blitzing, nor is it that impressive when you take into account the fact that the Children of Gamorra have very inconsistent and loosely-defined levels of superhuman physicals. Each individual Child is ranked far beneath Apollo. The Child in this feat was also already clearly injured from before, and it isn't clear HOW Midnighter took him out.

Scan 4: Midnighter chokes out Winter, who was able to physically contend with Apollo and other characters of that calibre (Wildstorm)

Choking him out while he was flying and unable to really fight back isn't impressive. A 150 lbs person can choke out a 300 lbs bodybuilder, does that make it a feat of super strength? Cutting off someone's blood flow by choking them isn't as much about raw strength as it is about skill.

Scan 5: Midnighter staggers Apollo with a punch. Though he did no real damage, it's still impressive given how Apollo tanked reentry whilst exhausted and was fine (New 52)

Again, Apollo has very inconsistent power levels and just staggering him without causing any actual damage with a well-placed punch isn't amazing.

Scan 6: Midnighter staggers New 52 Etrigan who was comparable to Apollo (New 52)

Comparable to an inconsistent high-tier...

Etrigan has gone up against high-tiers like Superman, Wonder Woman, and Lobo, to name a few. I smell another outlier...

As you can see, Midnighter has consistently shown the ability to hurt very durable characters with his blows. Even in the New 52 he can stagger powerful characters. With these feats, I think he shouldn't struggle to hurt Mera. He's not going to one shot her or anything like that, but she'll go down to his hits eventually.

If you show me a few legit 1v1 fights between Midnighter and any of these high-tier characters at their full power, then I will believe that they aren't outliers. But the fact of the matter is that Midnighter has many outliers that go far above what he should be capable of as an upper-end street tier to lower-end mid tier. Comparing him to high-tiers isn't valid at all.

I have no doubt that he could hurt Mera with his punches, but he would need to hit her A LOT before she goes down, and that just won't happen.

Midnighter's Durability

Scan 1: The rogue doctor amps himself to the point where he can overpower Apollo, and then Midnighter tanks getting kicked hundreds of feet away (Wildstorm)

Scan 5: Midnighter tanks a punch from Apollo, who has feats like this:

Scan 2: Midnighter tanks a punch from Hawksmoor, who can do this to one of the children of Gamorra (Wildstorm)

Again, both Apollo and Hawksmoor have very inconsistent power levels. Especially Hawksmoor, who is very strong while in a city but pretty weak while not in a city. And I'm almost certain the Scan 2 feat is when he is at full power/in a city.

It also seems very likely that Apollo was holding back in Scan 5, as he seems to do quite often in fights, especially those involving Midnighter, who is nowhere near high-tier.

Scan 3: Midnighter tanks being palmed into the ground by Maul. Now, Maul was holding back here as he didn't want to kill Midnighter, but we're still talking about a guy who can increase the mass of his hands to that of aircraft carriers (around 100,000 tonnes) without too much trouble (Wildstorm)

You said yourself that Maul is holding back and not trying to kill him. Just because he can increase his mass doesn't mean he was doing so in this particular example against Midnighter.

Scan 4: Midnighter tanks a casual kick from Sebastian, who overpowered Mr Majestic when enraged (who in turn can move planets). Now, this is a high-end feat for sure, but I don't think it's an outlier given Midnighter's other feats and the fact that Sebastian clearly wasn't going anywhere close to all out (Wildstorm)

Since this would put Midnighter in the high-tier category, it definitely is another outlier. We don't really know how "all out" Sebastian was going, and I'm pretty sure Midnighter was KO'd from this kick.

Scan 6: Midnighter tanks being thrown so hard he is sent flying through 4 cars (and this was immediately after he was exploded out of the top of a skyscraper and fell all the way to the ground) (Wildstorm)

Now this is more valid. However, he only went through the first car and simply bounced off the other 3. He was also very clearly injured from this.

As for the added context of the explosion from a skyscraper, you'll have to provide the scan for that in order for me to take it into account.

Now, I'm not going to address each individual strength feat you showed. I think most if not all of them could be replicated by people I've shown Midnighter taking hits from. The only one which could cause issues is her feat against Superman, but that definitely seems like a high-end feat. Her smacking Clark around like that when Arthur couldn't even do that to Wonder Woman (let alone Superman) whilst holding back seems a bit off. I suppose it's fine as a high end if we say that she didn't do any real damage to him. But in that case, I'll raise you Midnighter's high end of tanking a kick from Sebastian.

They probably could be replicated by many of the characters you have shown, but Mera's strength is pretty consistent. Apollo, Hawksmoor, and even Midnighter have very inconsistent showings. Implying that Midnighter can regularly tank hits from high-tiers is just not plausible.

I will admit that the feat with Superman is very much on the higher-end for her, but Superman was taken by surprise from this and nothing leads us to believe that he was injured or took any real damage from this. However, it is still quite impressive that she was able to throw him like that.

As the above feats show, Midnighter can clearly take a hit, and this combined with his healing factor which I showed off in my first post means that he will be very hard to put down with force. (don't worry, I'm gonna get to that good ol' dehydration in a bit)

Despite all the inconsistencies and outliers, I do admit Midnighter has pretty good durability. He could definitely tank a few strikes from Mera, but can he take being stabbed with the trident or tank hits from her hydrokinesis? Doubtful.

Midnighter's Speed

Scan 1: Midnighter takes down Impetus without the use of the battle computer. This is so impressive because no-one in the Authority or StormWatch could deal with Impetus' speed, including the likes of Swift who can outrun explosions

That certainly is impressive, and I don't know much about Impetus to say otherwise. However, two questions:

1) Can you confirm that Midnighter did not use his Battle Computer?

2) How fast is Impetus? Because Midnighter was able to speak like 4 sentences before Impetus reached him, and in the first panel, he is no more than 30 feet away from him...

Furthermore, saying "This is so impressive because no-one in the Authority or StormWatch could deal with Impetus' speed, including the likes of Swift who can outrun explosions" is a very vague blanket statement. That's like me saying "No one on the Justice League could deal with Mera" and not providing the scans of her fight against them.

Around the world in 30 seconds (also note one of the children of Gammora keeping pace with him). And yet Midnighter took Impetus down with no precog (Wildstorm)

Travel Speed ≠ Combat Speed

Scan 2: Midnighter blitzes the doctor and crushes his throat before he or Apollo could react, and I already talked about Apollo's speed (I know it's travel speed, but it still requires a certain amount of reaction so he doesn't fly into mountains or buildings or a plane or whatever). (Wildstorm)

Meh. Blitzing someone from a few feet away isn't all that great. Was the Battle Computer definitely not involved in this case too?

There is zero need to avoid mountains or buildings when you're flying high enough in the sky, and chances are you would not cross paths with a plane depending on the height you are flying. Stop equating travel speed with combat speed.

Scan 3: Midnighter avoids a bullrush from Apollo (Wildstorm)

Midnighter obviously saw Apollo coming since he was mid-flip in the first panel, and Apollo was a good distance away from him already. Battle Computer?

Scan 4: Midnighter blitzes one of the children of Gamorra who were comparable to Apollo in speed. (Wildstorm)

This was presented before. Not only was the Child of Gamorra clearly injured, but he was distracted and occupied with someone else, we don't know how close/far Midnighter was, and I don't know if the Battle Computer was involved or not. The Children of Gamorra being comparable to Apollo in travel speed is quite irrelevant.

However, given Mera's ability to hang with high tiers in speed, I doubt Midnighter's ability to completely dance her around her using speed. However, I do still want to talk about his speed bursts, because I glossed over them in my first post:

Your doubt is well-placed ;)

Scan 1-2: (backwards) Here Midnighter explains his speed bursts. Basically, he drastically increases his speed for one second. In the above feat, Midnighter basically blitzes a speedster who claimed to be almost as fast as the flash. His actual speed his dubious as we only have this statement to go off (we don't know if he was just boasting if he actually knows how fast the flash is etc.), but it is still impressive nonetheless.

This is a pretty nifty power, not gonna lie. It's highly doubtful that this speedster is actually anywhere close to being as fast as The Flash, and a statement made by him isn't enough.

He has used his speed bursts to perform full-on speedster feats. One such instance is when he was captured by Amanda Waller and tied to a chair that was bolted to the ground. He then proceeded to vibrate a screw out of his chair (by vibrating his body) every time Waller blinked. (New 52)

Can you provide feats for this?

With his speed bursts he gets a massive boost of speed, and if you wanted some pure scaling feats, both Midnighter and Apollo could keep up with post-crisis Captain Atom, who in turn can keep up with high tiers similarly to Mera:

Apollo keeping up with Captain Atom? Sure. But I don't really see much of Midnighter "keeping up" with him in the 2 scans you presented. Captain Atom actually manages to grab Midnighter's collar and Apollo intervenes.

Captain Atom is certainly very fast and a rightful high-tier, but it is very doubtful he was using his full speed against Apollo and Midnighter, and nothing leads me to believe that he was going all out against them.

Also, how often does he actually use these speed bursts?

Looking at quantifiable feats, Midnighter should have the advantage, and if we look at pure scaling speed feats, then Midnighter still isn't behind Mera.

I will agree in terms of feats, but I disagree with the scaling. Mera was able to dodge most of Ocean Master's attacks while she was still weakened. As a reminder, Ocean Master can match Aquaman in physicals and has recently taken on the JL on his own in Rebirth. And Ocean Master was not holding back at all when he was fighting Mera.

She was also able to keep up with BL Wonder Woman, as I showed before. Although Wonder Woman held the upper hand at first, as soon as Mera started using her hydrokinesis, she dominated the fight and landed a kill shot on Wonder Woman. ***Keep in mind that this was Pre-52 Wonder Woman***

She could also take out a holding-back JL while exhausted and not at full strength. I won't post the feats again, but in terms of speed, she:

  • Pulled the rings off the 2 Green Lanterns before they could react
  • Reacted to The Flash speeding at her from behind and instantly dehydrated him, stopping him in his tracks. Important to note that Mera admitted she can't match his speed, but she easily takes him out regardless. This alone puts her way above Midnighter.
  • Reacted to a close-quarters surprise attack from both Cyborg and Batman, and fodderized Batman by easily choking him with one hand.

Need I say more?

Midnighter's Gear

Midnighter's doors are quite impressive. They operate quickly, but not instantly, as he needs to say the word "door" in order to open one.

I definitely see these being a nuisance for Mera. However, Midnighter would need to use pretty huge doors in quick succession if he plans on redirecting Mera's hydrokinetic attacks, as her attacks can be quite large in AoE. The doors will also not save him from being instantly dehydrated because it is not a telegraphed attack involving external sources of water.

If he takes advantage of the doors to land hits on Mera, she will quickly become frustrated and rely on instant dehydration, flood the area with water, or move the fight to the water.

Counters

Gotta tell ya, I reread the comic and they had none lol.

Hahaha, well I appreciate the bluntness. We can assume their durability is that of a standard human then. Chopping someone's head in half with their hand is impressive for a street-leveller but nowhere near impressive anyone against someone like Mera.

That was a mistake on my part. I meant to say that Parasite had absorbed his healing factor, not his battle computer, and I was trying to highlight Midnighter's ability put Parasite down for some time despite the impressive healing factor.

Fair enough! This doesn't change much however.

Don't see it helping in any way against dehydration, but everything else? Totally. The guy was able to get up 4 pages after getting his neck snapped:

Four pages could be a long time. It isn't a very quantifiable feat. For the purposes of a CaV/tournament, needing 4 pages to recover isn't enough to avoid a loss. Once you're down, you're down.

One of the functions of the battle computer lets him instantly know someone's abilities, so having never fought someone like Mera shouldn't be an issue. And her versatility in its uses shouldn't be any challenge at all. The feats of a battle computer are pretty crazy. Midnighter was able to accurately predict the geopolitical consequeces of the Authority's actions for at least two weeks into the future; when someone came to his house to attack him, Midnighter knew he was coming hours beforehand and left the guy a note in the door; when StormWatch was about to teleport in front of the Authority, Midnighter knew it even when the Engineer (a technopath of the highest calibre) and various other members with super senses didn't appear to sense anything coming. Midnighter himself states that he can predict every possible outcome

so given that you've already conceded that he will be able to know her abilities, I am utterly unconvinced by the idea that Mera could come up with a way to use her powers that Midnighter has not already predicted. Especially as dehydration isn't even that crazy of a use of hydrokinesis.

For all intents and purposes, Midnighter's Battle Computer is as weak or strong as the writer or plot requires it to be. If it was as absolute as you suggest it is, he would have never lost a fight. In fact, he would win against pretty much anyone of any tier, because he would know everything they will do before it happens. Essentially, he would be omniscient.

Claiming he will know every single aspect of Mera's powers despite never meeting her nor knowing anything about her is a massive generalization of his Battle Computer. Being able to control external sources of water isn't necessarily correlated with being able to control the water in someone's body. I'd even argue that almost all fictional characters with hydrokinesis/waterbending/aquakinesis don't actually demonstrate the ability to dehydrate someone by draining the water from their bodies. Therefore, you you can't assume that Midnighter would know the full limits and capabilities of Mera's powers just by witnessing her controlling external sources of water.

Uhh, not really. Midnighter rarely preps for battles. Most of his fights are random encounters, and even when he knows a fight is coming, he doesn't tend to bring anything extra. When he fought StormWatch and took down Winter and later impetus he had no prep (heck he had to battle computer against Impetus); When he basically solo'd the Authority, he didn't use prep he just beat them down; When he fought the children of Gammora he had no prep; Midnighter isn't really a prepper because he doesn't need it, the battle computer basically gives him auto prep (tactics wise). It's also worth noting that Midnighter is a pretty tactical thinker even without the BC:

Fair enough, but he did have prior knowledge in the majority of these cases, which definitely helps.

And you're forgetting one thing. He does know something about Mera. He knows all of her powers and abilities and what she can do with them. He may not know her personality or things like that, but he already knows everything he needs to know just by looking at her.

Again, not necessarily. Doing this is bordering on omniscience. Unless you can show me multiple consistent examples of him being able to deduce the full range of someone's powers without having any prior knowledge on them?

Absolutely not. If we are speaking about New 52 Midnighter, I'd probably agree with you (though you could argue New 52 Midnighter to be Mid Tier due to speed bursts), but Wildstorm Midnighter is definitely not street level. I would go on to say why, but I think my post has said all that needs to be said.

The doors and speed burst certainly make him more formidable, but he is still on the lower-end of mid tiers in my opinion, at best. We can agree to disagree.

As I have demonstrated, Midnighter has consistently demonstrated the striking to hurt characters of Mera's level, and also the durability to tank attacks from her (though not a large amount in quick succession). This combined with his (arguably) superior speed and greater skill on top of his battle computer means that he will eventually put Mera down in a physical confrontation.

I do admit he could take Mera out physically, but only after a prolonged battle and only after landing multiple good strikes against her. I can also see him taking several hits from Mera, physically. Fortunately, Mera isn't just some physical powerhouse without any other powers.

I disagree about the speed though, as I mentioned before.

If she tries to use big AOE water attacks, he can simply door himself out of the way, or even use doors to redirect her attacks elsewhere. This would also allow him to get around your strategy of Mera eventually flooding the island with water as he could just BFR the water off of the Island. However, there is one hole in my plan:

He definitely could door himself out of the way or redirect her attacks. But, the more he does this, the more water will flood the area, the more water Mera can use, the bigger her attacks will be, the harder it will be for him to dodge, and so on.

Essentially, Midnighter would have to avoid every bit of water that Mera launches at him and continuously drain the area of water. I don't think that amount/size/quick succession of doors is realistic for Midnighter to keep throwing out without getting tagged.

And if Mera floods the area with enough water (which she can do given the volume of water she has manipulated), Mera will get much stronger and faster and deadlier by being able to move in the water, which also severely weakens Midnighter's ability to land any hits on her.

I agree that this is how the fight would probably go if Midnighter could do nothing about her dehydration. Fortunately, I know of a few things that could help him out. First of all, he can use his radio telepathy as a distraction. Mera's hydrokinesis must require some concentration, and I imagine getting telepathically sent images of Midnighter having sex with his husband would be pretty shocking and distracting (before you ask "has Midnighter done this before", the answer (I think lol) is no. However, it has been shown that radio telepathy can be used to transmit messages/images to people who don't have the tech like when the Engineer used it to ask the whole planet to vote. Thus, this strategy is possible and given that I can think of it, I don't think it would be any stretch for the battle computer to think of it).

I fail to see how his radio telepathy could be of any use against Mera, including as a distraction. Mera isn't ignorant about telepathy, as her husband (Aquaman) is a telepath, and she has fought alongside the JL on many occasions, which includes telepaths like Martian Manhunter. Midnighter talking to her telepathically or implanting sexual thoughts will do nothing but slightly inhibit Midnighter's focus as well. This is pretty LOL of a strategy, and very creative on your part, but 1) not useful, and 2) not likely to happen.

This would only be temporary, but it should be enough of a distraction to stop Mera's dehydration for a moment, and in that moment Midnighter can use his speed burst to deliver the finishing blows.

I doubt someone as battle-hardened as Mera would be distracted in the slightest by this strategy, especially since her own husband is a telepath as well.

On top of this, he can also use doors against her, by either teleporting her or teleporting himself to somewhere else on the island. I am also assuming that Mera at the least needs to be able to see what she is using her hydrokinesis on to be effective, so teleporting her a few hundred metres away facing the opposite direction should free Midnighter from her grasp.

Sure, but he is just as unfamiliar with the island as Mera is, so it's not like he wouldn't be disadvantaged as well by teleporting himself or Mera somewhere else on it. Either way, the entire island is surrounded by water and contains multiple sources of water for Mera to use. With the feat I provided in my opener about her being able to sense water, she will never be rendered useless.

Oh, and as for her trapping him in a water sphere, no reason he can't just door himself out.

He needs to say "door" to do so, and that won't be easy when he's drowning in a sphere of water ;)

  • Midnighter has the striking to put Mera down eventually

Key word here being "eventually".

  • His speed skill and prediction, as well as doors, should allow him to avoid getting hit

He will need to constantly be on the move and using multiple doors of large sizes in order to completely avoid both her physical attacks and hydrokinetic attacks. And that doesn't even include the instant dehydration.

  • Should he get hit, he has the durability to tank a couple hits and can heal from them easily

He could tank a few physical hits, but her hydrokinesis hits HARD as she has slammed around characters like Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Ocean Master, and Cyborg, to name a few.

Requiring 4 pages to heal from a snapped neck will not be enough.

  • He can use doors and radio-telepathy to temporarily get around her dehydration whilst he ends the fight

I already debunked your "radio telepathy distraction" strategy. As for doors, they won't save him from being instantly dehydrated when all Mera needs to do is hold her hand out. Once he's dehydrated, he won't be able to speak and door himself out, let alone breathe.

Conclusion

The first point I'd like to bring out is Midnighter's enhancements...You can correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like water wouldn't mix too well with someone who has a bunch of electronic/cybernetic enhancements, as well as gear like the radio telepathy. I feel like Midnighter being submerged in water at any point in this fight wouldn't bode well for him...But again, this is speculation on my part, so feel free to correct me.

I haven't changed my mind much about this fight since your opener. He does have some impressive feats, but he also has many outliers, and many feats against characters with inconsistent power levels. With the doors and speed bursts taken into consideration, he is on the lower end of mid-tiers. Mera, on the other hand, is easily on the upper end of mid-tiers and bordering on high-tier. Midnighter is outclassed in physicals and in powers, and his only true advantages are his superior skill and Battle Computer.

  • His striking strength is impressive but he would require many good hits in order to do any notable damage to Mera
  • His durability is good, but he would only be able to tank a few hits from Mera physically
  • His healing factor isn't good enough to constantly and quickly heal himself from her attacks, and for the purpose of a CaV, once he is down, he is out.
  • He takes the edge in speed based on feats, but not based on scaling, which Mera is superior in.
  • His skill is definitely above Mera, I won't refute that
  • His Battle Computer is impressive but not as absolute as you suggest it is. It is as weak or strong as the writer/plot requires, and he is by no means omniscient. Otherwise, he would have no loses, which we both know isn't true ;)
  • You also can't assume that he would know the full range of Mera's powers and abilities since her internal hydrokinesis/dehydration isn't obvious nor telegraphed.
  • He can use his doors to avoid most of her attacks, but he would need a constant flow of large doors in order to avoid all her AoE attacks.
  • The more he uses his doors, the more water will flood the area, the more water Mera can use, the bigger her attacks will be, the harder it will be for him to dodge, and so on. Endless cycle that works in Mera's favour and works against Midnighter.
  • He literally has no defence against being instantly dehydrated, which Mera will use once she realizes she is taking more hits than she can give.

This will definitely be a prolonged fight, but I don't see how Midnighter can beat out Mera's superior physicals, hydrokinesis and dehydration.

Your move!

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#32 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Yeah, one more each. I should (hopefully) have my post up sometime this week.

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#34 Edited by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

The Midnighter - Closing Post - It's Midnight Everyday Bro

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Counters I - Midnighter's Striking:

Jack's powers increase significantly while in a city, and in this fight, he wasn't in a city nor was he anywhere close to his full strength. In his Wildstorm run, Jack couldn't even survive outside of a city for long and was severely weakened as a result. Being able to take damage from Midnighter while not in a city isn't impressive at all.

Jack's vulnerability outside of cities decreased over the years. In his Stormwatch days, he had to get medicated just to be outside of a city for a few hours. Yet later in the Authority Revolution (which was written 15ish years later), he not only able to survive, but to fight in a desert (just not at full power). Regardless:

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As the above scan shows, a town as small as Laplace (which is 22 square miles) is big enough for Jack to be fine, even in his StormWatch days when he would die outside of a city. The Carrier on the other hand is 35 x 50 miles, which is 1700 square miles (bigger than London). And if you think that it's not just about the size, the 3rd scan shows that an underground base was large enough to be "a city". The carrier should easily be big enough to count as "a city". If you insist that it isn't then here you go:

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There ya go. Midnighter fighting evenly with Jack Hawksmoor (again) but this time in Dallas. Here Midnighter not only takes a punch from him but also deals some damage to Jack with his physicals alone. This also addresses what you were saying about "show me a few legit 1v1 fights between Midnighter and any of these high-tier characters at their full power" (though Jack isn't really a high tier).

I'm not sure about the "Jack no sold falling into an exploding nuke" feat, but I'm almost certain it was while he was at full strength and in a city. That's also very much energy durability as opposed to physical durability.

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(backwards) It was in fact in a city, but Midnighter can give Jack trouble in a city so that doesn't really matter. As much as it is an energy durability feat, energy and blunt force durability aren't completely separable. It wouldn't make sense for someone with city level energy durability to be hurt by wall level punches for example. Even so, Jack has great blunt force feats as well so:

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Here he tanks a punch from a alternate reality version of himself (and I've already shown how impressive Jack's striking is). This alternate Jack should have at least comparable striking to "our" Jack (this is more convincing given that the corresponding alternate Midnighter was an exact match for "our" Midnighter).

The scan itself indicates that Apollo has eardrums just like anyone else and that the same amount of force can cause them to burst. And again, energy durability ≠ physical durability. Apollo also has fluctuations in his power levels based on the amount of solar energy he has stored within him.

What Midnighter actually said was "hit them with the proper force, and they'll burst, just like anyone else's.". Implying that bursting Apollo's eardrums would require an appropriate amount of force for his durability. It would be illogical for the guy's eardrums have regular human durability when the guy can tank nukes and lava. Though energy durability is not the same as blunt force durability, again, the two can't be completed separated. Apollo has been punched so hard he flew all the way around the world, and he wasn't KO'd (though he was in pretty bad shape). Apollo's "power level" does indeed fluctuate, but that rarely involved his durability. Him having less solar power is usually related to him stamina and his offensive capabilities.

This feat is also an outlier because Apollo is easily a high-tier capable of destroying city blocks, surviving in the Earth's core, and surviving the vacuum of space.

None of the three things you listed make Apollo a high tier but whatever. It's not an outlier due to Midnighter's many instances of harming powerful opponents (Hawksmoor, Children of Apollo, Sebastian, Winter etc.). I'm not gonna act like he can beat Apollo in a slugfest or that he pulls off stuff like this in every issue, but it's not like Mera throws the Justice League and high tiers around every issue either, so I don't see how what I'm doing is any different to what you're doing.

This isn't a clear-cut example of blitzing, nor is it that impressive when you take into account the fact that the Children of Gamorra have very inconsistent and loosely-defined levels of superhuman physicals. Each individual Child is ranked far beneath Apollo. The Child in this feat was also already clearly injured from before, and it isn't clear HOW Midnighter took him out.

The children of Gammora were still flying through buildings like they're nothing and wiping out city blocks in groups. The fact that they're considerably below Apollo individually doesn't make the feat unimpressive as Midnighter is still killing quite powerful beings with his raw physicals. As for how Midnighter took it seemed like he must have used his strength in some way, which is what's important. Regardless:

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Here ya go. Midnighter taking on two children of Gammora (and it looks like he snaps the neck of the one on the left) with one hand each.

Choking him out while he was flying and unable to really fight back isn't impressive. A 150 lbs person can choke out a 300 lbs bodybuilder, does that make it a feat of super strength? Cutting off someone's blood flow by choking them isn't as much about raw strength as it is about skill.

As much as it is definitely about skill, it's not like strength doesn't play a factor. Batman can't just choke out Superman with his skill, y'know what I mean. It does require an amount of strength to choke out someone who can hang with the likes of Apollo and The High physically.

Again, Apollo has very inconsistent power levels and just staggering him without causing any actual damage with a well-placed punch isn't amazing.

Comparable to an inconsistent high-tier...

Etrigan has gone up against high-tiers like Superman, Wonder Woman, and Lobo, to name a few. I smell another outlier...

Ima be honest. Those two might be outliers lol. I find it harder to guage how strong N52 Midnighter is, though N52 Apollo (and Etrigan) aren't nearly as impressive as their pre flashpoint counterparts. I'm not sure that either of them (Apollo especially) have the feats to be called a high tier.

If you show me a few legit 1v1 fights between Midnighter and any of these high-tier characters at their full power, then I will believe that they aren't outliers. But the fact of the matter is that Midnighter has many outliers that go far above what he should be capable of as an upper-end street tier to lower-end mid tier. Comparing him to high-tiers isn't valid at all.

See, I think my issue here is that your main basis for the argument that Midnighter fighting high tiers (though some of them are just high mid tiers like Jack) is an outlier seems to stem from you're belief that Midnighter is only high street/low mid tier. However, this argument is very unconvincing. Your own preception of tiers and of what tier Midnighter is in have no bearing on the validity of his feats. You have brought very little in terms of actualy reasons for why Midnighter hurting a high tier (or a high mid tier) is an outlier, despite me showing several examples of him doing exactly that. But I don't want to spend anymore time talking about this so I'm just going to move on.

Counters II - Midnighter's Durability:

Again, both Apollo and Hawksmoor have very inconsistent power levels. Especially Hawksmoor, who is very strong while in a city but pretty weak while not in a city. And I'm almost certain the Scan 2 feat is when he is at full power/in a city.

They don't really have particularly inconsistent power levels. They vary in how powerful they are due to their own factors (Jack being in a city or not, how much solar energy Apollo has) but outside of that they aren't any more inconsistent than someone like Mera. And Midnighter tanked that punch from Jack in Dallas (Texas) by the way.

You said yourself that Maul is holding back and not trying to kill him. Just because he can increase his mass doesn't mean he was doing so in this particular example against Midnighter.

Maul's main method of achieving strength is increasing his mass though. I'm not trying to suggest that Maul had mass-of-aircraft-carriers hands because I don't believe he was, but it's still an impressive feat nonetheless.

Since this would put Midnighter in the high-tier category, it definitely is another outlier. We don't really know how "all out" Sebastian was going, and I'm pretty sure Midnighter was KO'd from this kick.

So, Midnighter taking a casual wkick from Sebastian would make him a high tier, but Mera ragdolling Supes doesn't make her a high tier? Kinda double standards there chief. I freely admit that this is a high end feat (and probably Midnighter's best), him tanking hits from Hawksmoor, Apollo, Maul and the Rogue Doctor makes arguably consistent.

Now this is more valid. However, he only went through the first car and simply bounced off the other 3. He was also very clearly injured from this.

Upon further inspection, you are in fact correct. However, it moreso seemed like he was injured beforehand (given the large amount of bleeding from his face). I'm not saying he was unjarmed, but I don't think it seriously injured him either.

As for the added context of the explosion from a skyscraper, you'll have to provide the scan for that in order for me to take it into account.

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This is the prior event. He gets exploded out of the top of the skyscraper and falls all the way down onto a car, to go onto fight with those 3 guys (one of whom then throws him through the cars).

They probably could be replicated by many of the characters you have shown, but Mera's strength is pretty consistent. Apollo, Hawksmoor, and even Midnighter have very inconsistent showings. Implying that Midnighter can regularly tank hits from high-tiers is just not plausible.

How so? You keep on insisting that these characters are inconsistent but you haven't given any examples or said why they're inconsistent. Once again I have to ask why Midnighter tanking hits from a high tiers isn't plausible outside of the fact that you believe he is high-street/low-mid.

I will admit that the feat with Superman is very much on the higher-end for her, but Superman was taken by surprise from this and nothing leads us to believe that he was injured or took any real damage from this. However, it is still quite impressive that she was able to throw him like that.

If she did no real damage to him and it was a surprise attack, then what exactly does the feat show? Is it just her throwing a 200 pound (I have no idea how much Superman, or anyone, weighs lol this is a random guess) guy cos that's not very impressive.

He could definitely tank a few strikes from Mera, but can he take being stabbed with the trident or tank hits from her hydrokinesis? Doubtful.

He probably can't outright tank it (especially not the trident, I don't think Midnighter's piercing durability is anything crazy), but there's no reason he can't heal and power through the damage taken with his healing factor plus his damage soak.

Counters III - Midnighter's Speed:

That certainly is impressive, and I don't know much about Impetus to say otherwise. However, two questions:

1) Can you confirm that Midnighter did not use his Battle Computer?

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In the Issue before the fight with Impetus, Stormwatch and The Authority were fighintg and the above happened (this was Authority: Prime #3, and the fight with Impetus was in #4). In issue 4, Stormwatch and The Authority teamed up to fight zombie clone versions of Midnighter and Apollo's old team. However, Battalion (the guy who stopped Midnighter using his implants) never said anything about allowing Midnighter to use his battle computer again. Given that they were working together, it would make sense for him to do that, but the fact that nothing was said about it leaves it kind of ambiguous. However, even if he did use the battle computer, it doesn't detract from the feat that much. It still shows Midnighters ability to deal with fast opponents, and it's not like he doesn't have his battle computer in this fight with Mera anyways.

2) How fast is Impetus? Because Midnighter was able to speak like 4 sentences before Impetus reached him, and in the first panel, he is no more than 30 feet away from him...

Furthermore, saying "This is so impressive because no-one in the Authority or StormWatch could deal with Impetus' speed, including the likes of Swift who can outrun explosions" is a very vague blanket statement. That's like me saying "No one on the Justice League could deal with Mera" and not providing the scans of her fight against them.

Fair question:

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In the first Image Apollo says that Impetus is (or at least the original was) "the fastest thing he'd ever seen" at that his reflexes are on par with his running speed. The second image shows Hellstrike stating that Impetus was "moving faster than we can think". Could be hyperbole, but it gets across the point that the dude was trouncing them speed-wise. It also shows Battalion (Jackson King btw, as he is often referred to by his real name) stating that Midnighter is the only person there who could deal with Impetus. Given how fast Impetus is portrayed to be, I highly doubt that him moving 30ish ft in the time it took Midnighter to speak a couple sentences is an accurate portrayal of how fast he is, cos that's like, really slow lol. If anything, it's a feat for Midnighter's processing speed, given that he was able to think through multiple strategies and figure out if they'd work or not in the time it took Impetus to cover that relatively short distance.

Meh. Blitzing someone from a few feet away isn't all that great. Was the Battle Computer definitely not involved in this case too?

Having precog doesn't allow you to physically move your body faster. It'll help you to dodge attacks, but blitzing someone has nothing to do with you knowing their next move or not.

Midnighter obviously saw Apollo coming since he was mid-flip in the first panel, and Apollo was a good distance away from him already. Battle Computer?

It is likely that the Battle Computer was used here, but that doesn't invalidate the feat. He still has to move his body at comparable speeds to Apollo in order to hit him mid flight, and it still shows his ability to deal with fast attacks. Again, he doesn't necessarily need speed feats where he didn't use the battle computer because he has the battle computer in this fight.

This was presented before. Not only was the Child of Gamorra clearly injured, but he was distracted and occupied with someone else, we don't know how close/far Midnighter was, and I don't know if the Battle Computer was involved or not. The Children of Gamorra being comparable to Apollo in travel speed is quite irrelevant.

Here is the previous page:

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The weren't that far apart (and also, the guy doesn't look injured before Midnighter take him out). The children of Gammora were also comparable to Apollo in combat speed (and Apollo can hang with high tiers like Cap Atom).

This is a pretty nifty power, not gonna lie. It's highly doubtful that this speedster is actually anywhere close to being as fast as The Flash, and a statement made by him isn't enough.

I also doubt that he was actually almost as fast as the Flash, but unfortunately that was his only showing (because Midnighter killed him lol).

He has used his speed bursts to perform full-on speedster feats. One such instance is when he was captured by Amanda Waller and tied to a chair that was bolted to the ground. He then proceeded to vibrate a screw out of his chair (by vibrating his body) every time Waller blinked. (New 52)

Can you provide feats for this?

Sure thing:

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There ya go.

Apollo keeping up with Captain Atom? Sure. But I don't really see much of Midnighter "keeping up" with him in the 2 scans you presented. Captain Atom actually manages to grab Midnighter's collar and Apollo intervenes.

Atom grabbed Midnighter's collar cos he was fighting Grifter. Midnighter Also dodged Atom's energy blasts at point blank range. Regardless, It's not like Midnighter can't hang with Apollo in combat speed anyways (Apollo failing to stop Midnighter from crushing the Doctor's neck or scaling via children of Gammora) so the scaling still holds.

Captain Atom is certainly very fast and a rightful high-tier, but it is very doubtful he was using his full speed against Apollo and Midnighter, and nothing leads me to believe that he was going all out against them.

Undestandable stance given the pages that I showed you, but that's not what happened at all:

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Atom thought Apollo was going to kill him and actually couldn't do anything (physically) about it. Probably a high end feat for Apollo, but impressive nonetheless.

Also, how often does he actually use these speed bursts?

Honestly, not that often. No reason he won't use them if he needs to though, and the battle computer should let him know if he needs to (like to avoid an attack or something like that).

I will agree in terms of feats, but I disagree with the scaling. Mera was able to dodge most of Ocean Master's attacks while she was still weakened. As a reminder, Ocean Master can match Aquaman in physicals and has recently taken on the JL on his own in Rebirth. And Ocean Master was not holding back at all when he was fighting Mera.

I don't really see how that would put Mera much above Midnighter through what I've shown, and as you haven't shown me the feats of Ocean Master vs the JL I can't really say anything about that.

Counters IV - Other Stuff:

Midnighter's doors are quite impressive. They operate quickly, but not instantly, as he needs to say the word "door" in order to open one.

He doesn't need to say it out loud, he can just think it:

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Note: The blue and grey bits on the corners of the text bubble are used when the Authority are communicating via radiotelepathy. As this was in his solo series, I believe it was used to indicate him thinking, which makes sense because you can't exactly speak in a vacuum. Regardless, if he can open doors in space, he can do it underwater. I suppose this is also a nice feat of Midnighter surviving in space briefly (though he was coughing up blood afterwards and expressed regret at his decision to go into space). Also, Midnighter's processing speed is very high, so he won't need much time at all to think door, especially as he should know that he needs to door before he does it.

Four pages could be a long time. It isn't a very quantifiable feat. For the purposes of a CaV/tournament, needing 4 pages to recover isn't enough to avoid a loss. Once you're down, you're down.

I agree that if Midnighter gets his neck snapped (or something comparably detrimental) then his healing factor isn't fast enough to not make that a loss. My point was that he healed from having his neck snapped in only a few minutes or so.

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It went like this: Seth snaps Midnighter neck, kills(?) the Doctor off panel, swift come in, he takes her out (1 page), he takes out the Engineer (2 pages), he teleports to Hawksmoor and takes him out (3 pages) and then he goes to baby Jenny but she's not in her crib because Midnighter got up and got her (4 pages). My point is that if he can be back in action from what should be a fatal injury in only a few minutes, then any minor injuries shouldn't affect him at all in the long term because he can heal from them pretty easily.

For all intents and purposes, Midnighter's Battle Computer is as weak or strong as the writer or plot requires it to be. If it was as absolute as you suggest it is, he would have never lost a fight. In fact, he would win against pretty much anyone of any tier, because he would know everything they will do before it happens. Essentially, he would be omniscient.

Well, you could say that for any power of any character. I could say that Mera's strength is as strong as the plot needs it to be. Some comics will have her losing to Manta, and some comics will having fighting the JL solo. No character is perfectly consistent, and everyone has both high and low showings. I never claimed that the battle computer or that he would be omniscient. Even if it was, being omniscient isn't an auto win. Batman could have the best precog in the world but it's not going to let him beat Hulk in a fist fight.

Having said that, it is still incredibly powerful, and Midnighter doesn't lose that often. In fact, almost all the times he lose a fight, it's because the battle computer was circumvented in some way (again, I'm not saying he can't lose with the BC). Either that, or he was just against someone way more powerful than him. (Note: I am mainly talking about the BC in Wildstorm. In the New 52 it was not nearly as nigh-infallible as it was in Wildstorm).

Claiming he will know every single aspect of Mera's powers despite never meeting her nor knowing anything about her is a massive generalization of his Battle Computer. Being able to control external sources of water isn't necessarily correlated with being able to control the water in someone's body. I'd even argue that almost all fictional characters with hydrokinesis/waterbending/aquakinesis don't actually demonstrate the ability to dehydrate someone by draining the water from their bodies. Therefore, you you can't assume that Midnighter would know the full limits and capabilities of Mera's powers just by witnessing her controlling external sources of water.

You say "ever single aspect", but generally speaking, Mera's powers come down to one thing; moving water. Her hydrokinesis abilities are all just "moving water" in one way or another, and her dehydration is simply her removing the water from someone's body. Given that most people know that water is a large part of the human body, I don't think it would be a stretch to assume that someone who can control water can control the water in your body. Because why wouldn't they be able to? There's nothing special about the water in your body that makes it different from other water other than it being mixed with other things. But I also don't think it would be a stretch to assume that a hydrokinetic could move, say, fruit juice. Controlling the water in someone's body isn't as crazy an application as you're making it out to be.

Again, not necessarily. Doing this is bordering on omniscience. Unless you can show me multiple consistent examples of him being able to deduce the full range of someone's powers without having any prior knowledge on them?

Here's the thing. Even if he didn't immediately know her powers, as soon as he sees her using her hydrokinesis once, he'll know that she can move water with her mind. And again, controlling the water in someone's body isn't the craziest thing in the world. Given the Battle Computer's crazy feats, I don't think it would be a stretch at all for the Battle Computer to predict dehydration as something Mera could do.

The doors and speed burst certainly make him more formidable, but he is still on the lower-end of mid tiers in my opinion, at best. We can agree to disagree.

Yeah I don't think we're gonna agree on that one lol.

He definitely could door himself out of the way or redirect her attacks. But, the more he does this, the more water will flood the area, the more water Mera can use, the bigger her attacks will be, the harder it will be for him to dodge, and so on.

Essentially, Midnighter would have to avoid every bit of water that Mera launches at him and continuously drain the area of water. I don't think that amount/size/quick succession of doors is realistic for Midnighter to keep throwing out without getting tagged.

And if Mera floods the area with enough water (which she can do given the volume of water she has manipulated), Mera will get much stronger and faster and deadlier by being able to move in the water, which also severely weakens Midnighter's ability to land any hits on her.

You're assuming that he will door her attacks to somewhere else on the island, which he doesn't need to do at all. As demonstrated in the scan I showed in my last post, doors can be opened anywhere on the planet. They've even been shown to be opened in space or next to the sun, or even in different realities. Midnighter doesn't even have to door her attacks onto the planet, let alone the island they're fighting on.

I fail to see how his radio telepathy could be of any use against Mera, including as a distraction. Mera isn't ignorant about telepathy, as her husband (Aquaman) is a telepath, and she has fought alongside the JL on many occasions, which includes telepaths like Martian Manhunter. Midnighter talking to her telepathically or implanting sexual thoughts will do nothing but slightly inhibit Midnighter's focus as well. This is pretty LOL of a strategy, and very creative on your part, but 1) not useful, and 2) not likely to happen.

I doubt someone as battle-hardened as Mera would be distracted in the slightest by this strategy, especially since her own husband is a telepath as well.

Fair, but I still think it could be used as a slight distraction. Since she has no knowledge on Midnighter, and he doesn't exactly look like a psychic (though idk what a psychic looks like lol) I think randomly having weird images projected into her mind would cause some hesistation, if only a very brief one.

Sure, but he is just as unfamiliar with the island as Mera is, so it's not like he wouldn't be disadvantaged as well by teleporting himself or Mera somewhere else on it. Either way, the entire island is surrounded by water and contains multiple sources of water for Mera to use. With the feat I provided in my opener about her being able to sense water, she will never be rendered useless.

I was moreso suggesting that he could use it to disrupt her hydrokinesis. If Mera suddenly found herself falling from 100 metres in the air or if her opponent suddenly (seemingly) vanished, I doubt she would continue using her hydrokinesis without pause.

How Midnighter Wins:

Another route to victory that I failed to mention in my previous posts is Midnighter's pressure points/nerve strikes.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Scan 1: Midnighter's Battle computer tells him the pressure points of a giant mutated spider that he had never encountered before (New 52)

Scan 2: Midnighter takes down Maul utilising pressure points (Wildstorm) (Maul being a guy who physically overpowered PC Cap Atom)

As the above feats show, the battle computer will tell Midnighter where Mera's pressure points are, and he can use them to take her down fairly quickly, as he did to Maul, who is physically comparable to Mera.

However, this not (entirely) how Midnighter wins.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here Midnighter mentions how on average there are around 55 ways for him to win a fight (before you use this to lowball "he only had 5 ways to beat a bunch of nobodies"; he was up against an actual villain team from Wildstorm, and he also needed them alive, which removes most of his usual strategies).

The important thing to note here isn't that he normally has 55 ways for him to win a fight; it's that he only needs one

Out of all the millions of scenarios that Midnighter can predict, he only needs a single winning scenario to achieve victory. To argue that Mera loses to Midnighter is to argue that he can't come up with a single scenario in which he wins. Think about all that Midnighter has that I've demonstrated; Speed bursts, radiotelepathy distraction, doors for redirecting attacks or teleporting her elsewhere (or into the sky), pressure points; given all of that, I think that Midnighter coming up with a single winning scenario is more than likely.

Conclusion

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#35 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Sorry for the long wait lol, this took much longer than I thought it would.

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#36 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: It's all good! It's the holidays after all. My final post should be up by next week

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#37 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: Sorry for the delay (again). I’ve been super busy. I will do my best to have my post up by sunday night!

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#38 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: Sorry again lol. I have a feeling this tournament has died, but I messaged ET to find out. Whether or not it is dead, I will still post my closer so we can go to votes :)

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#40 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

Mera - Closing Post - But Midnight Still Only Strikes Once A Day...

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Midnighter's Striking - Counters

Jack's vulnerability outside of cities decreased over the years. In his Stormwatch days, he had to get medicated just to be outside of a city for a few hours. Yet later in the Authority Revolution (which was written 15ish years later), he not only able to survive, but to fight in a desert (just not at full power). Regardless:

As the above scan shows, a town as small as Laplace (which is 22 square miles) is big enough for Jack to be fine, even in his StormWatch days when he would die outside of a city. The Carrier on the other hand is 35 x 50 miles, which is 1700 square miles (bigger than London). And if you think that it's not just about the size, the 3rd scan shows that an underground base was large enough to be "a city". The carrier should easily be big enough to count as "a city". If you insist that it isn't then here you go:

There ya go. Midnighter fighting evenly with Jack Hawksmoor (again) but this time in Dallas. Here Midnighter not only takes a punch from him but also deals some damage to Jack with his physicals alone. This also addresses what you were saying about "show me a few legit 1v1 fights between Midnighter and any of these high-tier characters at their full power" (though Jack isn't really a high tier).

This just makes Jack inconsistent, and thus makes the showings you presented of Midnighter against Jack just as inconsistent. Going from small building-level feats to city-level feats is too large of a range to be considered consistent for what Jack can do.

I'd also like to bring up this section of Jack's CV page:

Jack's powers only work in the city, in fact originally, as a side-effect of all his implants, he couldn't even survive outside a city for more than several minutes. This seems to have changed over the years though and he can now survive outside cities without sustaining damage, but as a trade off he doesn't have his superhuman abilities (since there would be no cities nearby to control) and even his physical attributes are reduced greatly, though not totally removed. Most "city" environments that can maintain Jack are obviously cities. They are places like New York, Mexico City, San Paulo, etc. However, there are places that wouldn't normally be considered cities that Jack can survive in. While he was a member of Stormwatch, Jack was sent on a mission to an underground complex beneath a jungle. He could survive there because the complex was so large that Jack's body recognized it as a city. He has also been able to function normally on large space stations and alien hive ships.

Similarly, Jack can survive indefinitely on The Carrier with no ill effects. He says Carrier feels like a city to him, so while he can't manipulate it like he would a normal city of concrete, steel and brick, he can live there without having his physical abilities reduced as much as he would in like a desert or jungle. The Carrier isn't perfect though, and he isn't as strong or durable there as he is in "real" city. Jack has also been shown fighting near cities or settlements so it's assumed that being close to one can power him at least for a time if he can't get into it or needs to do something outside of it.

This alone proves that Jack's power levels are inconsistent, and that he is nowhere near full power when he is fighting outside formal cities or even on The Carrier.

(backwards) It was in fact in a city, but Midnighter can give Jack trouble in a city so that doesn't really matter. As much as it is an energy durability feat, energy and blunt force durability aren't completely separable. It wouldn't make sense for someone with city level energy durability to be hurt by wall level punches for example. Even so, Jack has great blunt force feats as well so:

Sure, they both fall under the umbrella of "durability", but that's about it. Just like how one character can have superhuman durability against blunt force but still get hurt by piercing attacks, another character can have superhuman durability against energy but not blunt force.

Here he tanks a punch from a alternate reality version of himself (and I've already shown how impressive Jack's striking is). This alternate Jack should have at least comparable striking to "our" Jack (this is more convincing given that the corresponding alternate Midnighter was an exact match for "our" Midnighter).

This is an irrelevant feat to bring up... You are trying to showcase Midnighter's durability by showing him tanking a punch from another Midnighter.... That's like saying Superman's durability is impressive because he can tank a punch from another Superman. Both have superhuman strength and durability, so it isn't too impressive. Midnighter's striking and durability are still barely mid-tier and riddled with inconsistencies.

What Midnighter actually said was "hit them with the proper force, and they'll burst, just like anyone else's.". Implying that bursting Apollo's eardrums would require an appropriate amount of force for his durability. It would be illogical for the guy's eardrums have regular human durability when the guy can tank nukes and lava. Though energy durability is not the same as blunt force durability, again, the two can't be completed separated. Apollo has been punched so hard he flew all the way around the world, and he wasn't KO'd (though he was in pretty bad shape). Apollo's "power level" does indeed fluctuate, but that rarely involved his durability. Him having less solar power is usually related to him stamina and his offensive capabilities.

What the "proper force" actually is, is not quantifiable. Someone like Midnighter causing harm to Apollo, who is often but not always shown to be a high-tier, is just another inconsistency. Rupturing someone's eardrum is super easy to do; in fact, it is a very vulnerable and weak spot to target that can cause a lot of damage. You can't assume that his weak spots are just as durable as the rest of his body, especially when comparing it to energy attacks like nukes.

ALL of his abilities, including his physicals, are powered by solar energy. It is not selective. Having little to no solar energy renders him much weaker overall; it doesn't just limit his offensive capabilities. To back this up more, here are a few quotes from Apollo's CV page:

Apollo's abilities are powered by solar energy, which he absorbs from the Sun's UV rays, which he is also able to store limited quantities inside his body. The way in which Apollo absorbs sunlight is similar to photosynthesis. However, with no exposure to sunlight, he will quickly lose his powers, starting with his ability to fly.

While the full range and extent of his powers are astounding, it is possible for his energy stores to become depleted if kept out of the sun long enough.

After the events of World's End, Apollo's powers and physiology have changed dramatically. His solar charge now depletes at a much faster rate and leaves him weaker than it ever did before. For this very reason, he constantly stays in the sun, only coming down to Earth when necessary. Because of this, Apollo is only capable of fighting for short periods of time before needing a recharge.

So yeah, the amount of exposure to sunlight does impact his overall power levels, which again, makes him inconsistent.

None of the three things you listed make Apollo a high tier but whatever. It's not an outlier due to Midnighter's many instances of harming powerful opponents (Hawksmoor, Children of Apollo, Sebastian, Winter etc.). I'm not gonna act like he can beat Apollo in a slugfest or that he pulls off stuff like this in every issue, but it's not like Mera throws the Justice League and high tiers around every issue either, so I don't see how what I'm doing is any different to what you're doing.

Apollo has continental-level feats and has been implied to be planetary, so yeah, he is definitely on the lower-end of high tiers.

The main difference is consistency. Mera is consistently shown to be a mid-tier, but with a few high-tier outliers. Midnighter is consistently shown to be street-level, but with a few mid-tier outliers.

Midnighter pretty much matched Nightwing on two occasions (one, two). Nightwing, AKA a perfect example of a street-level character. Where was Midnighter's superior strength, durability, speed, and skill here?

Mera, on the other hand, has consistently performed well against characters like Ocean Master, Black Manta, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and many more. All of these characters range from the upper-end of mid-tier to high tier.

The children of Gammora were still flying through buildings like they're nothing and wiping out city blocks in groups. The fact that they're considerably below Apollo individually doesn't make the feat unimpressive as Midnighter is still killing quite powerful beings with his raw physicals. As for how Midnighter took it seemed like he must have used his strength in some way, which is what's important. Regardless:

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Here ya go. Midnighter taking on two children of Gammora (and it looks like he snaps the neck of the one on the left) with one hand each.

It is very hard to judge what happened based on one single panel. You are making an assumption that he beat them purely based on raw physicals alone, while completely ignoring the possibility of superior skill and his Battle Computer. Both are expression emotion on their faces, therefore they aren't dead and haven't had their necks snapped.

As much as it is definitely about skill, it's not like strength doesn't play a factor. Batman can't just choke out Superman with his skill, y'know what I mean. It does require an amount of strength to choke out someone who can hang with the likes of Apollo and The High physically.

Strength plays a very, very small factor in this. It is much more about skill. Batman could technically choke out Superman with the right technique, because his physiology is similar to that of a human in that he still needs to breathe. With the right amount of skill and technique, there's no saying that it isn't doable. It is especially of a stretch when we take into account that Midnighter was choking out Winter while he was flying and unable to fight back appropriately.

Ima be honest. Those two might be outliers lol. I find it harder to guage how strong N52 Midnighter is, though N52 Apollo (and Etrigan) aren't nearly as impressive as their pre flashpoint counterparts. I'm not sure that either of them (Apollo especially) have the feats to be called a high tier.

Glad you can admit that ;) Although New-52 Apollo and Etrigan aren't as impressive, they are still quite powerful. Maybe not a true high tier, but at the very least on the upper end of mid-tiers.

See, I think my issue here is that your main basis for the argument that Midnighter fighting high tiers (though some of them are just high mid tiers like Jack) is an outlier seems to stem from you're belief that Midnighter is only high street/low mid tier. However, this argument is very unconvincing. Your own preception of tiers and of what tier Midnighter is in have no bearing on the validity of his feats. You have brought very little in terms of actualy reasons for why Midnighter hurting a high tier (or a high mid tier) is an outlier, despite me showing several examples of him doing exactly that. But I don't want to spend anymore time talking about this so I'm just going to move on.

Because Midnighter has struggled against street-tiers like Nightwing...on more than one occasion. And yet he can harm Apollo with his strikes? That makes no sense, and stems from how inconsistent Midnighter is portrayed.

It isn't just MY perception I am basing things off of, but the perceptions of many on CV. With the exception of his outliers, Midnighter is not a true mid-tier. Mera, on the other hand, is easily an upper-end mid tier character. She has consistently faced much more powerful and dangerous opponents than Midnighter. I don't see Midnighter being able to perform anywhere near as well as Mera in any of the fights she has been in.

Midnighter's Durability - Counters

They don't really have particularly inconsistent power levels. They vary in how powerful they are due to their own factors (Jack being in a city or not, how much solar energy Apollo has) but outside of that they aren't any more inconsistent than someone like Mera. And Midnighter tanked that punch from Jack in Dallas (Texas) by the way.

Their respective factors (i.e. Jack being in a city and Apollo being charged with solar energy) are the main reasons as to why they can and are portrayed as inconsistent. Apollo being able to go up against a diverse range of characters, from street tier to high tier, can be attributed to the amount of solar energy he has absorbed. If Midnighter, Apollo, or Jack were consistent, they would reliably perform well against others of their tier. However, that isn't the case as we have Midnighter with street-level physicals struggling against Nightwing but being able to contend with the likes of Apollo, Jack, Winter, etc. Even the nature of his Battle Computer is inconsistent, as it should allow him to account for every factor in every fight and always win, but that is not the case. Mera doesn't struggle against street-tiers, nor has she ever. She has always performed well against mid-tiers and even high-tiers because she is consistent.

Maul's main method of achieving strength is increasing his mass though. I'm not trying to suggest that Maul had mass-of-aircraft-carriers hands because I don't believe he was, but it's still an impressive feat nonetheless.

If his strength levels are so variable and we cannot quantify the level of mass/strength he had against Midnighter, then no, it isn't very impressive. At most, you can say that Midnighter faced an opponent with superhuman strength, and that's about it.

Hitting and tossing a distracted Superman who didn't even really fight back isn't the same as taking a so-called "casual" kick from Sebastian, especially since we don't see if Midnighter tanked this kick or was KO'd from it. However, we do know that Superman recovered from Mera's strike and throw and showed no signs of injury.

Upon further inspection, you are in fact correct. However, it moreso seemed like he was injured beforehand (given the large amount of bleeding from his face). I'm not saying he was unjarmed, but I don't think it seriously injured him either.

Even if he was somewhat injured from before, after this attack, he was down on the ground and clearly in pain based on his facial expression.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is the prior event. He gets exploded out of the top of the skyscraper and falls all the way down onto a car, to go onto fight with those 3 guys (one of whom then throws him through the cars).

Thanks for providing the scans. I don't have much to say about this, but it is unclear how high the explosion took place and how far Midnighter fell. It definitely wasn't the top of the skyscraper as you claim, since we can see the top half of the skyscraper in that first scan.

How so? You keep on insisting that these characters are inconsistent but you haven't given any examples or said why they're inconsistent. Once again I have to ask why Midnighter tanking hits from a high tiers isn't plausible outside of the fact that you believe he is high-street/low-mid.

They are inconsistent because of the nature of their powers. The physicals of some characters don't depend on external factors, such as being in a city or how much solar energy they have absorbed. Those characters mostly have consistent power levels. Apollo and Jack don't fall into this category as their power levels DO depend on an external factor. Therefore, any showings you present of them with Midnighter are also subject to being inconsistent because we don't know if they are at full strength, low strength, average strength, etc.

If she did no real damage to him and it was a surprise attack, then what exactly does the feat show? Is it just her throwing a 200 pound (I have no idea how much Superman, or anyone, weighs lol this is a random guess) guy cos that's not very impressive.

Because 1) she staggers him while holding back, and 2) she grapples and manages to toss him a good distance away. I'd love to see Midnighter replicate anything remotely close to that against someone like Superman :)

He probably can't outright tank it (especially not the trident, I don't think Midnighter's piercing durability is anything crazy), but there's no reason he can't heal and power through the damage taken with his healing factor plus his damage soak.

You are significantly overselling his healing factor. He doesn't have the impressive healing factor that characters like Wolverine or Sabretooth have. You are making it seem like he would heal from being stabbed through with a trident in mere seconds. That isn't the case, and you haven't presented anything to suggest that his healing factor is that impressive.

Midnighter's Speed - Counters

In the Issue before the fight with Impetus, Stormwatch and The Authority were fighintg and the above happened (this was Authority: Prime #3, and the fight with Impetus was in #4). In issue 4, Stormwatch and The Authority teamed up to fight zombie clone versions of Midnighter and Apollo's old team. However, Battalion (the guy who stopped Midnighter using his implants) never said anything about allowing Midnighter to use his battle computer again. Given that they were working together, it would make sense for him to do that, but the fact that nothing was said about it leaves it kind of ambiguous. However, even if he did use the battle computer, it doesn't detract from the feat that much. It still shows Midnighters ability to deal with fast opponents, and it's not like he doesn't have his battle computer in this fight with Mera anyways.

It is quite ambiguous, but if they were working together then there is no reason why he would handicap Midnighter.

It does make a difference, because he can only use his Battle Computer to counter an opponent within the limits of his own speed. Mera doesn't have any impressive speed feats of her own, but through scaling, she is significantly faster than Midnighter, being able to keep up with Pre-52 WW, Ocean Master, and the JL.

In the first Image Apollo says that Impetus is (or at least the original was) "the fastest thing he'd ever seen" at that his reflexes are on par with his running speed. The second image shows Hellstrike stating that Impetus was "moving faster than we can think". Could be hyperbole, but it gets across the point that the dude was trouncing them speed-wise. It also shows Battalion (Jackson King btw, as he is often referred to by his real name) stating that Midnighter is the only person there who could deal with Impetus.

Well all you got here are a few statements, all of which could be hyperbole...

Given how fast Impetus is portrayed to be, I highly doubt that him moving 30ish ft in the time it took Midnighter to speak a couple sentences is an accurate portrayal of how fast he is, cos that's like, really slow lol. If anything, it's a feat for Midnighter's processing speed, given that he was able to think through multiple strategies and figure out if they'd work or not in the time it took Impetus to cover that relatively short distance.

Compared to an actual scan where Midnighter says a few sentences before Impetus even reaches him from roughly 30 feet away. I'm not doubting that Impetus is a speedster, but this is an anti-feat for him, and thus a terrible example of how Midnighter's speed compares to him. It also demonstrates how Midnighter's Battle Computer isn't very instant since it took him a few moments to come up with a counter.

Having precog doesn't allow you to physically move your body faster. It'll help you to dodge attacks, but blitzing someone has nothing to do with you knowing their next move or not.

It certainly helps though. Someone with "precog" being slow won't help them out at all because they won't be able to move/react fast enough to execute their plan. It's like Spider-Man going up against The Flash. Spider-Man is fast, and he has a form of precog, but he isn't fast enough to react to The Flash, no matter how powerful his Spider-Sense is.

Knowing someone's next move makes it easier to determine the right time to intercept them, which ties in with their speed. Midnighter isn't that fast, so it isn't very impressive that he could blitz someone from a few feet away. Most street-level characters can do that.

The weren't that far apart (and also, the guy doesn't look injured before Midnighter take him out). The children of Gammora were also comparable to Apollo in combat speed (and Apollo can hang with high tiers like Cap Atom).

The distance is quite small, the Child of Gammora is distracted and occupied with two people, he has his back turned towards Midnighter, and he wasn't even looking at Midnighter when the blitz was initiated. All of that makes this feat quite unimpressive, and something that most street-levellers could replicate.

Ohhh so now you admit that Apollo can hang with other high tiers? Before you seemed to imply more than once that he is a mid tier, in order to make Midnighter's feats against him not seem like outliers...

He has used his speed bursts to perform full-on speedster feats. One such instance is when he was captured by Amanda Waller and tied to a chair that was bolted to the ground. He then proceeded to vibrate a screw out of his chair (by vibrating his body) every time Waller blinked. (New 52)

Can you provide feats for this?

Sure thing:

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There ya go.

Hmm. This is quite vague of a feat, and it seems like a very under-utilized & non-standard power for Midnighter. It isn't clear how he is vibrating the screw, and there is no indication that he is doing so every time Waller blinked. It could be useful in a fight, but you didn't really provide enough feats for it and he doesn't use this power often enough for him to actually rely on it in our fight. Increasing his speed to superhuman levels for one second makes sense, but him also being able to vibrate his entire body....that's a stretch.

Atom grabbed Midnighter's collar cos he was fighting Grifter. Midnighter Also dodged Atom's energy blasts at point blank range. Regardless, It's not like Midnighter can't hang with Apollo in combat speed anyways (Apollo failing to stop Midnighter from crushing the Doctor's neck or scaling via children of Gammora) so the scaling still holds.

Fair enough for the collar grab. As for dodging Atom's blast, 1) it wasn't point blank range, 2) it's more likely his Battle Computer anticipated the incoming blast, and 3) he barely dodged it, as you can see some of his cape got disintegrated. If Midnighter's Battle Computer was as efficient as you claim it is, he would have dodged the entire blast and avoided getting grabbed.

I have addressed the speed scaling multiple times now, and I don't want to sound like a broken record anymore.

Atom thought Apollo was going to kill him and actually couldn't do anything (physically) about it. Probably a high end feat for Apollo, but impressive nonetheless.

A high-end feat for Apollo against Captain Atom (another high-tier) and Midnighter can still hang with Apollo in terms of physicals...? Yeah, sure...

Honestly, not that often. No reason he won't use them if he needs to though, and the battle computer should let him know if he needs to (like to avoid an attack or something like that).

Being able to use it and actually using it are very different things. If the speed bursts aren't something Midnighter regularly uses, we can't assume he would definitely use it in our battle.

I don't really see how that would put Mera much above Midnighter through what I've shown, and as you haven't shown me the feats of Ocean Master vs the JL I can't really say anything about that.

Ocean Master is comparable to Aquaman, who has shown much greater speed than anything Midnighter has done. Mera could contend with Pre-52 WW, which is again leagues above Midnighter's speed. And a weakened Mera could keep up with various members of the JL, most of which are above Midnighter in speed.

By scaling, Mera is far faster than Midnighter.

Midnighter's Other Stuff - Counters

He doesn't need to say it out loud, he can just think it:

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Note: The blue and grey bits on the corners of the text bubble are used when the Authority are communicating via radiotelepathy. As this was in his solo series, I believe it was used to indicate him thinking, which makes sense because you can't exactly speak in a vacuum. Regardless, if he can open doors in space, he can do it underwater. I suppose this is also a nice feat of Midnighter surviving in space briefly (though he was coughing up blood afterwards and expressed regret at his decision to go into space). Also, Midnighter's processing speed is very high, so he won't need much time at all to think door, especially as he should know that he needs to door before he does it.

Hmm, okay. He technically shouldn't be able to survive in space at all, but I digress. I'll concede that he can use doors without speaking, although if this is the case, it doesn't make much sense that he doesn't always just think it and chooses to say it instead. Thinking the word would be significantly faster than saying it, especially in a combat situation. As this is our final post, I won't question it further.

I agree that if Midnighter gets his neck snapped (or something comparably detrimental) then his healing factor isn't fast enough to not make that a loss. My point was that he healed from having his neck snapped in only a few minutes or so.

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It went like this: Seth snaps Midnighter neck, kills(?) the Doctor off panel, swift come in, he takes her out (1 page), he takes out the Engineer (2 pages), he teleports to Hawksmoor and takes him out (3 pages) and then he goes to baby Jenny but she's not in her crib because Midnighter got up and got her (4 pages). My point is that if he can be back in action from what should be a fatal injury in only a few minutes, then any minor injuries shouldn't affect him at all in the long term because he can heal from them pretty easily.

That isn't a very accurate deduction to make. We can assume that minor injuries would be faster to heal than a major injury (like getting your neck snapped), however, Midnighter's doesn't have a clear-cut healing factor like Wolverine or Deadpool and it isn't too quantifiable. If he were to get stabbed through by Mera's trident, he could heal in 30 seconds or he could heal in minutes. Either way, if he's down for the count while he heals, it's a loss for him. Healing through minor injuries will only delay the inevitable, and the majority of what Mera can do to him is pretty major and fatal (i.e. slicing/impaling with hydrokinesis, stabbing him with her trident, draining him, etc.)

Well, you could say that for any power of any character. I could say that Mera's strength is as strong as the plot needs it to be. Some comics will have her losing to Manta, and some comics will having fighting the JL solo. No character is perfectly consistent, and everyone has both high and low showings. I never claimed that the battle computer or that he would be omniscient. Even if it was, being omniscient isn't an auto win. Batman could have the best precog in the world but it's not going to let him beat Hulk in a fist fight.

Well, you could say that for any power of any character. I could say that Mera's strength is as strong as the plot needs it to be. Some comics will have her losing to Manta, and some comics will having fighting the JL solo. No character is perfectly consistent, and everyone has both high and low showings. I never claimed that the battle computer or that he would be omniscient. Even if it was, being omniscient isn't an auto win. Batman could have the best precog in the world but it's not going to let him beat Hulk in a fist fight.

Having said that, it is still incredibly powerful, and Midnighter doesn't lose that often. In fact, almost all the times he lose a fight, it's because the battle computer was circumvented in some way (again, I'm not saying he can't lose with the BC). Either that, or he was just against someone way more powerful than him. (Note: I am mainly talking about the BC in Wildstorm. In the New 52 it was not nearly as nigh-infallible as it was in Wildstorm).

Ehhh, it isn't quite the same. To quote your first post:

Now. let's get onto his most famous ability: the Battle Computer. This battle computer can immediately recognise the abilities and enhancements of anyone Midnighter, and it calculates millions of possible scenarios. Midnighter then simply chooses which scenario he wants:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Scan 1-6: Midnighter explaining his powers on multiple occasions (4 is N52, the rest are Wildstorm). Note how it is stated multiple times that Midnighter goes through a million possible scenarios (or even all possible scenarios)

Overall, the BC is incredibly powerful and is rarely wrong (especially in Wildstorm). Additionally, Mera doesn't have very unpredictable powers, so Midnighter should have no issues predicting her every move.

It is true that no character is perfectly consistent, and every character has low/high showings. However, a power that is described as being able to calculate millions of scenarios to allow Midnighter to execute one where he wins...that is pretty damn close to being omniscient. The very nature of the power SHOULD allow him to win every fight, but that isn't the case. Mera's strength always being at the maximum limit doesn't necessarily mean she would win every fight. The way you described the Battle Computer suggests he can figure out her powers and predict all her moves and counter everything she does. But we know for a fact that Midnighter doesn't win every fight, so there is nothing to suggest that he could figure out her powers, predict all her moves, and counter everything she does. I may not be explaining this as clearly as possible but I hope that makes sense.

It is powerful, but it isn't perfect. Its main flaw is that Midnighter being slower than his opponent, which is true in our case, makes it much more difficult to counter everything Mera does.

You say "ever single aspect", but generally speaking, Mera's powers come down to one thing; moving water. Her hydrokinesis abilities are all just "moving water" in one way or another, and her dehydration is simply her removing the water from someone's body. Given that most people know that water is a large part of the human body, I don't think it would be a stretch to assume that someone who can control water can control the water in your body. Because why wouldn't they be able to? There's nothing special about the water in your body that makes it different from other water other than it being mixed with other things. But I also don't think it would be a stretch to assume that a hydrokinetic could move, say, fruit juice. Controlling the water in someone's body isn't as crazy an application as you're making it out to be.

Here's the thing. Even if he didn't immediately know her powers, as soon as he sees her using her hydrokinesis once, he'll know that she can move water with her mind. And again, controlling the water in someone's body isn't the craziest thing in the world. Given the Battle Computer's crazy feats, I don't think it would be a stretch at all for the Battle Computer to predict dehydration as something Mera could do.

No, it isn't too crazy of an application, but you are making a plain assumption that he could 100% deduce that Mera could instantly dehydrate him just from the fact that she can manipulate water. You haven't provided any feats to suggest he could make that kind of deduction, and since we both agree that his BC isn't perfect, there is no guarantee here.

Based on all the characters in fiction who can manipulate water, very few of them can actually directly drain the water from an opponent's body and dehydrate them. Take the waterbenders of Avatar, for example. Waterbenders can control water, ice, snow, plants, clouds, steam, perfume, and even blood, yet no one has demonstrated the ability to pull the water out of an opponent and dehydrate them. It isn't the same universe, but even within the DC/Wildstorm universes, I don't think there is anyone except Mera who can drain the water from an opponent's body and dehydrate them.

But, even if he were to determine that Mera could do this, there is nothing he could do to stop it as it is a very instant, non-telegraphed attack that simply requires a quick hand motion to execute.

You're assuming that he will door her attacks to somewhere else on the island, which he doesn't need to do at all. As demonstrated in the scan I showed in my last post, doors can be opened anywhere on the planet. They've even been shown to be opened in space or next to the sun, or even in different realities. Midnighter doesn't even have to door her attacks onto the planet, let alone the island they're fighting on.

And yet you didn't provide any feats of Midnighter doing anything like this. You showed 1 feat of him opening multiple doors at once, but you didn't show him redirecting multiple attacks, in quick succession, and to a distant location. Therefore, it seems unlikely he could or even would do so, as you claim he will.

Fair, but I still think it could be used as a slight distraction. Since she has no knowledge on Midnighter, and he doesn't exactly look like a psychic (though idk what a psychic looks like lol) I think randomly having weird images projected into her mind would cause some hesistation, if only a very brief one.

Come on dude....don't push this strategy, you're better than that lol. A split second hesitation won't do anything, especially since he has no way of instantly taking Mera out in that slight moment of hesitation.

I was moreso suggesting that he could use it to disrupt her hydrokinesis. If Mera suddenly found herself falling from 100 metres in the air or if her opponent suddenly (seemingly) vanished, I doubt she would continue using her hydrokinesis without pause.

Fair enough, but this would only be a very momentary pause that would just delay the inevitable. I also don't think it is in character or standard for Midnighter to door-drop his opponents from the sky.

Why Midnighter Doesn't Win

Another route to victory that I failed to mention in my previous posts is Midnighter's pressure points/nerve strikes.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Scan 1: Midnighter's Battle computer tells him the pressure points of a giant mutated spider that he had never encountered before (New 52)

Scan 2: Midnighter takes down Maul utilising pressure points (Wildstorm) (Maul being a guy who physically overpowered PC Cap Atom)

As the above feats show, the battle computer will tell Midnighter where Mera's pressure points are, and he can use them to take her down fairly quickly, as he did to Maul, who is physically comparable to Mera.

Ahhh well bringing in a new strategy and new feats in your final post isn't very nice ;)

But I'm not concerned about this at all for a few reasons:

1) You provided only 2 feats of Midnighter using pressure points, which isn't enough to suggest this would be a standard move for him to use

2) In both cases, he was facing much more physically imposing/larger opponents, not a woman of Mera's size

3) Both opponents are slower than Mera

4) Mera is a decently skilled and experienced combatant, so it is possible she would notice Midnighter trying to go for very precise shots to her body

However, this not (entirely) how Midnighter wins.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here Midnighter mentions how on average there are around 55 ways for him to win a fight (before you use this to lowball "he only had 5 ways to beat a bunch of nobodies"; he was up against an actual villain team from Wildstorm, and he also needed them alive, which removes most of his usual strategies).

The important thing to note here isn't that he normally has 55 ways for him to win a fight; it's that he only needs one

Out of all the millions of scenarios that Midnighter can predict, he only needs a single winning scenario to achieve victory. To argue that Mera loses to Midnighter is to argue that he can't come up with a single scenario in which he wins. Think about all that Midnighter has that I've demonstrated; Speed bursts, radiotelepathy distraction, doors for redirecting attacks or teleporting her elsewhere (or into the sky), pressure points; given all of that, I think that Midnighter coming up with a single winning scenario is more than likely.

Here we go again with the NLF/perfectly accurate/fool-proof usage of the Battle Computer that you are suggesting Midnighter has...that we both know isn't perfect nor fool-proof and hasn't resulted in him winning every fight he has been in...

I understand that Midnighter's main thing is his Battle Computer, but relying on it this much and hyping it out to be something that it isn't, is very much of a stretch and grasp for straws in your strategy. I have provided many reasons why his BC isn't perfectly accurate and how it isn't an "end all" to our fight. It might give him a bit of an edge, but against someone as strong, fast and durable as Mera, who can assault you with massive amount of water and instantly dehydrate you... the BC can only help so much.

Conclusion, AKA Why Mera Wins

  • Mera holds the advantage in strength
  • Mera holds the advantage in durability
  • Mera holds the advantage in speed, based on scaling
  • Midnighter holds the advantage in skill but it isn't enough to guarantee a win
  • Midnighter's healing factor isn't strong enough to save him from any of Mera's lethal attacks
  • Mera can assault Midnighter with constant and massive amounts of water-based attacks that he would need to constantly avoid with no chance to counter
  • Mera can instantly dehydrate Midnighter and he can't do anything about it
  • Midnighter's doors are useful but he simply can't summon multiple doors in quick succession to avoid all of Mera's hydrokinetic attacks. It is also unlikely he would door Mera into the air.
  • His speed bursts are rarely used and not standard enough to be a deciding variable in this fight
  • His radio telepathy is pretty much useless, even as a distraction
  • The use of pressure points is unlikely based on the 2 scans you provided of him using it against large and slower opponents
  • His Battle Computer has been severely overhyped and exaggerated. It isn't as perfect or fool-proof as you make it out to be, it is doubtful he could predict Mera's ability to drain/dehydrate, and even if it did, he can't do anything to stop it.
  • We both relied on a lot of scaling, but Midnighter's scaling to high-tiers like Apollo is just absurd given his actual physicals and inconsistent showings against characters with varied and inconsistent power levels.
  • You relied on a lot of hyping and wanking to give Midnighter a chance, but at best, he is on the low end of mid-tiers.
  • Mera, based on her scaling to characters like Ocean Master, Pre-52 Black Lantern Wonder Woman, and the JL, is at least on the upper end of mid-tiers.
  • The battlefield highly favours Mera due to its abundance of water sources
  • Mera would absolutely dominate Midnighter in this fight :)

This was a lot of fun! You were a worthy, honourable, and respectful debater. Thanks for the great CaV! :)

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#43 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos- I know this tournament is dead, but can you change the OP to say it is open for votes anyways please?

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#44 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by XLR87T3 (10066 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Looks good, give me some time to read it over

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#46 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5537 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote on this later today

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#47 Posted by Amendment50 (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate! Voting for @geekryan :)

To be honest I don't really think I liked their debating quite as much as maestro's. But I did feel based on both sides' arguments that Mera seems much better equipped to win this matchup. Maestro had a bit of a softball of an opener compared to geekryan but really brought the heat after that and made Midnighter seem much more competitive. Both sides did a good job overall of going over their characters' strengths.

That said there was a lot of scaling to superior characters and I didn't like geek's approach here. I felt that geekryan jumped to dismiss or downplay a lot of Midnighter's showings against characters like Apollo or Jack Hawksmoor and I saw the term "outlier" getting thrown around a lot where I didn't think it was appropriate. Considering geek's own fairly aggressive reliance on showings against the Justice League, including characters like Superman that are miles ahead of Mera, I thought this was unfair. Especially when it seemed like maestro was really going out of his way to be even handed and fair with respect to Midnighter's showings. I also felt that Midnighter's particular advantages in the form of the battle computer and doors were being really played down by geek. But at the same time maestro didn't give a lot of pushback on this so I don't think it's fair to criticize geek for poor debating because of that.

All of this said, it really felt to me like maestro was on the ropes for most of the debate, just trying to justify Midnighter being able to even compete with Mera. Her showings of physicals and overall power I felt were overall much more impressive than what was presented for Midnighter, and there seemed to be agreement on both sides that she had a lot of advantages. Her versatility seems to allow her the means for an easier victory based on what was provided here, in my opinion at least. Midnighter's own versatility and advantages did not seem to get enough emphasis in the debate so I think perhaps some more aggressive debating on maestro's part would have gone a long way here. That said, I really commend his attitude and approach to the debate.

Good job to both of you guys overall, this was a nice read. And it was cool seeing Mera used in a debate; she could use more respect around here lol.

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#48 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Nice post! I had a good time with this CaV (though I think I lost lol), and you were a great opponent.

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#50 Posted by maestromage (1422 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Thanks for voting and giving your opinion on the debate.