High Tier Trny: Pr0meutheus vs TTBA(TTBA WINS!!!!)

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mickey-mouse

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#1  Edited By mickey-mouse

DEATH MATCH!!!!!

Win By Death, KO, or Major Incap

@pr0metheus

Characters: 10 (Plus Extra 4)

  • Superman (5) (Tangent)
  • Darkness (2)
  • Black Bolt (2)
  • Kang (5)

Perks:15

  • 4 Character points 10
  • 2 Hours Prep At A College Science Lab 5

VS.

@thetruebarryallen

Characters: 10(Plus 6 Extra)

  • Cyborg Superman [ 10 Power Rings ] - 8 Points
  • Despero - 7 Points
  • Rayquaza - 1 Point

Perks

  • 6 extra character points [ 15 ]

Battlefield:

Pr0 = Black Star

TTBA = Red Star

Map is 100 Miles x 100 Miles

Teams Start 90 Miles Apart

Do Not Cross The Black Line During Prep

Do Not Leave During Prep(Teleporting or Summoning In Stuff Is Allowed)

Must Start Battle From Starting Postilions

No Caption Provided

Rules:

  • Buy a team & buy perks.
  • Your roster can be as big as you want, but you can only use 8 characters at a time.
  • Everyone has Standard Gear.
  • No reality warping.
  • Morals On & In Character.
  • Shared Universe Concept.
  • No Removing Your Enemies From The Battlefield.
  • No time travel.
  • No Plot or Pis Powers.
  • No knowledge unless it is from previous encounters & such or you but it.
  • No prep of any kind unless you buy it.
  • Old Rivalries & Teamwork Factor Counts.
  • Every Match Will Be Capture The Flags(3) or Deathmatch.
  • Make your team flexible so that they can handle either.The Style & Placement of The Flags Will Vary.
  • I Will Ref The Matches & Make Final Calls(Deal With It)
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mickey-mouse

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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#3  Edited By TheTrueBarryAllen

@pr0metheus - it makes sense if you go first due to the fact that you've got the prep. I look forward to your post :)

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FukYouRenchamp

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#5  Edited By FukYouRenchamp
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mickey-mouse

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Cool

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FukYouRenchamp

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#7  Edited By FukYouRenchamp

@lukehero: @thetruebarryallen:

Alright then, Before we start, I have to ask you one question:

No Caption Provided

Lol, I'll do some openers even though its usually against my style because my characters are fairly unknown. Except maybe, Kang or BB.

Powers include:

  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Super Strength
  • Super Speed
  • Super Durability
  • Teleportation
  • Deleting people from existence
  • Being a giant douche but an actual good guy at the same time
  • Most dangerous person in his world
  • Cosmic Awareness (Or so it seems like)
  • Enhanced Senses beyond a Lantern Ring
  • Amazing Willpower being able to override a Green Lantern ring and use it himself
  • While I won't use it in this battle, it said if he actually wanted to, he could pretty much give himself any power he wanted.
No Caption Provided

I'm going to be using Jackie D (@wyldsong really good name). He is Jackie's doppelganger, exact same powerset with no weakness.

Powers Include:

  • Super Strength
  • Super Speed
  • Super Durability
  • Teleportation
  • Being the King Of Hell (Top Cow's Hell)
  • The Darkness Manipulation
  • BFR (can't use it tho :((()
  • Summoning
  • Healing Factor
  • Reality Warping
  • Matter Manipulation
  • Bing a st8 up gangsta, icing fools sr8 up dawg.
No Caption Provided

Powers Include:

  • Super Strength
  • Super Durability
  • Super speed
  • Voice Manipulation? I don't really know what to call it. Imagine the High Tier version of Black Canary.
  • Energy Projection
  • Energy Absorbtion
  • "Can remove air from the Atmosphere"
  • Can reverse the polarity of electrons
  • Cause lightning to strike a target
  • Slow down an implosion
  • Matter Manipulation
No Caption Provided
  • Super Strength
  • Super Durability
  • Super Speed
  • Shields
  • Amazing Gear
  • Pulling shit from the future, and other universes yo.
  • Time Manipulaton
  • Summoning
  • Technopathy
  • Am I forgetting something?

Prep:

Harvey Dent:

  • He in the lab with the help of The Darkness (Who can make any supplys he doesn't have) and Kang who can just pull stuff out the timestream for anything else to help make 4 more "Superman" pills, what do these pills do you ask? Well:
No Caption Provided

  • After doing that, He'll summon Ultra-Humanite under his command
No Caption Provided

The Darkness:

  • Will summon countless Darklings, and other various creates ranging from size and strength.
  • These are just the lowly fodder ones, he'll summon bigger and badder ones too. This was done in seconds.
No Caption Provided

Black Bolt:

  • Absorb a lot of energy from Kang's weapons so he can shoot it out later

Kang:

  • Setup his shields obviously and make some Black Bolt proof earplugs.
  • Use his "out of time" thing to spy on you:

(See above)

  • He will then prep accordingly and create a power nullifier for Despero, the thing like he used on Wonder Man:
No Caption Provided
  • He'll prep his army,growing man and his clones.

Clones:

No Caption Provided

Growing Man:

No Caption Provided

Other Army:

These were capable of taking on the Avengers, and copying there abilities with the likes of Thor, Ironman, etc.

Another army he can call on.

  • Also, He'll put Ultra Humanite under his technopathy.

Battle:

Well, just to recap, My entire main team (Black Bolt, The Darkness, Kang) all were given the pill to equalize them to Earth 9 Superman. Also, we've given one to Growing Man for the fun of it.

First off, We'll disable those pesky lantern rings.

No Caption Provided

Now you could argue that he did it with TP and I can't really TP a robot to do it. BUT, It was still in effect AFTER this Superman jumped Universes, so unless you wan't to argue he has above Universal TP, The Lantern rings are gone.

While Harvey was doing that, Kang will of already frozen your team:

No Caption Provided

Now that your team is frozen, (or it wouldn't really matter), Kang is going to use his Power nullifier on Despero that he modified during the preptime. If that somehow doesn't work:

Harvey is going to stop Despero's brain activity, heart, lungs, etc from doing anything:

No Caption Provided

Now that Despero is just laying there frozen, and helpless right next to Cyborg Superman. Black Bolt is going to scream as loud as possible..

Lets start with a whisper:

Scan 1: KO's regular Hulk with a whisper

Scan 2-3: Overpowers World War Hulk with a whisper

But what can the Scream do?

Seems kinda "High" for Black Bolt to do but eh

No Caption Provided

With all the armys distracting you, Growing Man who can solo the Avengers and will only get stronger the more you hit him distracting you, I think our plan is pretty solid.

If you can counter the opening move, we'll get to the battle :)

I think my team all compliments each other well.

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mickey-mouse

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@pr0metheus: Good opener. Did not realize some of those things about ole Havery Supes.

Just out of curiosity, is he shown giving himself any superpower with the pill? Or, is it something he does with his own powers?

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FukYouRenchamp

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@lukehero said:

@pr0metheus: Good opener. Did not realize some of those things about ole Havery Supes.

Just out of curiosity, is he shown giving himself any superpower with the pill? Or, is it something he does with his own powers?

Something he does with his own powers.

He isn't Kryptonian like the rest of the Super family are, When he was a baby he was given a pill that really only implied it gave him increased durability and smarts. The rest he did was (implied) to be up to him, it would make sense because the Wonder Woman in the Tangent universe can just erase people from existance, Superman probably saw that, didn't like it, and created it himself.

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mickey-mouse

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@pr0metheus: Well I know you wouldn't do that anyway to your opponent, but erasing people would be a form of reality warping, so it wouldn't be allowed. The power thing is a neat trick in case you get back into a corner though.

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FukYouRenchamp

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#11  Edited By FukYouRenchamp

@lukehero said:

@pr0metheus: Well I know you wouldn't do that anyway to your opponent, but erasing people would be a form of reality warping, so it wouldn't be allowed. The power thing is a neat trick in case you get back into a corner though.

I won't use it. It would all be speculation.

Edit: Superman won't use that in character. He used it once on Tanget's Joker because someone brought her back to life, and he thought the dead should stay dead. So he deleted her.

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mickey-mouse

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FukYouRenchamp

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@lukehero said:

@pr0metheus: Cool beans.

Then they aren't really good to eat ya know? You don't just eat your food cold and shit! You need to microwave that shit Luke.

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mickey-mouse

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@pr0metheus: Coco Beans, Coffee Beans, and Soy Beans all do quite well served cool. Also Bean Dip, Bean Salad, and bean pudding are served cool.

BOOM!

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@lukehero said:

@pr0metheus: Coco Beans, Coffee Beans, and Soy Beans all do quite well served cool. Also Bean Dip, Bean Salad, and bean pudding are served cool.

BOOM!

I DON'T LIKE ANY OF THOSE!

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mickey-mouse

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@pr0metheus: You don't like Chocolate or Iced Coffee? BLASPHEMOUS DEVIL!!!

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Man, this is gonna be wild.

Also you guys forgot toe beans

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mickey-mouse

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@joygirl said:

Man, this is gonna be wild.

Also you guys forgot toe beans

DOUBLE BOOM! Now what. You don't like kittens & puppies man??? @pr0metheus

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FukYouRenchamp

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@lukehero said:

@joygirl said:

Man, this is gonna be wild.

Also you guys forgot toe beans

DOUBLE BOOM! Now what. You don't like kittens & puppies man??? @pr0metheus

...You guys are eating puppies and kittens?

I don't actually like Choclate or Coffee. Both taste disgusting.

I love my puppy

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#21  Edited By FukYouRenchamp

@sophia89 said:

@pr0metheus: finished reading your opener,it was pretty good but there is one problem.

  • Pulling shit from the future, and other universes yo

i never saw kang do that,i saw pull weapons,armies,space ships,etc but never that.why would he bring that to this time?

can't he get rid of it in the future?

why would he even bring other universe's sh*t,do we look like a sewer to him!

jk,tag me for votes.

Wow, alright. I actually posted scans before I realized you were joking.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@lukehero: I'VE WORKED 9 DAYS STRAIGHT AND I FINALLY GET A DAY OFF TOMORROW.

Which means I'll be catching up on all my posts - my schedules just been filled and it's terrible.

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@thetruebarryallen:

I'VE WORKED 9 DAYS STRAIGHT

Yikes, you and cosmic have got some hard a*** schedules. Reminds me of when I was 9 years younger working at express oil change & working 6 days a week. I couldn't imagine working 9 days straight.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@lukehero: Son of a fruitcake - CV must've eaten my post. I was wondering why Pr0 hadn't responded yet.

I'll work on re-uploading it right now.

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@sophia89: :p

Go read and vote in my Cosmic vs Lukehero trny.

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@pr0metheus: Due to work delays and CV being a post eating monster I haven't been able to respond; however, I've got the chance now & I hope we can get a pretty rockin' battle out of this.

Team TTBA - The Coalition for a Better Tomorrow

Cyborg Superman // Hank Henshaw

After recieving a Fantastic Four style origin story - Hank Henshaw lost his physical body and turned into an electronic consciousness with the ability to control and manipulate all forms of technology. There are no organic parts that Hank requires to survive - he can live without food, water, sleep, oxygen, and any other usual necessities. After transferring his consciousness within Superman's birthing matrix he gained the knowledge required to grant his mechanical bodies the powers of a Kyrptonian. He has since upgraded himself and removed his weakness to Kryptonite.

During the Sinestro Corps War he became a herald of the Anti Monitor and joined the Sinestro Corps - wielding 10 Yellow Power Rings. He will have all 10 of those rings during this fight, making him even MORE powerful than normal.

Powers & Abilities

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Heat Vision
  • Technomorphing
  • Telepathic Immunity
  • Construct Creation [ Lantern Rings ]
  • Immortality
  • Willhunter Nanites

Despero

Despero is the mad tyrant of Kalanor who obtained vast amounts of power due to his species energy source - the Flame of Py'tar. After several battles with the Justice League the energy source was ripped from his body and Despero became formless conscious matter that floated through space; however, he eventually created an incredibly powerful physical body with his sheer hatred for the Justice League.

Despero has vast amounts of telepathic might - and his third eye protects him from enemy telepathic assaults. Despero's sheer amount of will, rage, and determination, combined with his physical might and telepathic abilities make him an incredibly powerful team buster.

Powers & Abilities

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Invulnerability
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Illusion Casting
  • Mind Control
  • Possession
  • Psychic Fire
  • Flight
  • Regeneration

Rayquaza

The master and of the Weather Trio and a legendary Pokemon who inhabits the Ozone Layer. Rayquaza has been alive for hundreds of millions of years; however, due to its ability to fly high among the clouds and within the Earth's atmosphere it is hardly spotted. Rayquaza is meant to keep the balance should Groudon and Kyorge - the other members of the Weather Trio fight.

Powers & Abilities

  • Flight
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Various Pokemon Attacks

Questions // Counters

So after reading through your prep & your battle plan I've got a few things that I'd like to point out and/or address.

Prep Questions

1. Superman Pills

So Tangent Superman does indeed have the pill and I'm not going to question your ability to obtain more of them; however, did his wife ever display powers akin to his own levels. I remember her actually being afraid of Harvey during the storyline & I don't see why the Justice League would've had to do much of anything if that had her on their side.

So while the Pills will grant the rest of your team eventual powers - I don't think they'll be as advanced or as powerful as Harvey's - especially since you've only got 2 hours & it took quite a while for Harvey's own abilities to manifest & evolve.

2. Out of Time // Spying

You're not allowed to leave your location during Prep - I believe you're stuck within the confines of a science lab. So I think that what appears to be traveling through the time stream isn't allowed and time travel isn't allowed in the first place. You can teleport things to you but I don't think you can spy on & learn about my team.

Since nobody on your team has ever had a canon interaction with either Cyborg Superman, Raquaza, or Despero, I don't think Kang will be able to create a power nullifyer for Despero's abilities.

3. Army // Summoning

This actually isn't me contesting your army - I'm just wondering if it's within regulations for Cyborg Superman to summon his Manhunter Army once the battle has started.

@lukehero I don't see anything against summons within the rules/regulations - can CS summon his own army during battle or is that a prep time only sort of thing?

Battle Counters

Well, just to recap, My entire main team (Black Bolt, The Darkness, Kang) all were given the pill to equalize them to Earth 9 Superman. Also, we've given one to Growing Man for the fun of it.

Like I mentioned earlier - they shouldn't be on the same level as Tangent Superman as I don't believe his wife who had also been given the pill displayed the same level of powers & abilities.

Now you could argue that he did it with TP and I can't really TP a robot to do it. BUT, It was still in effect AFTER this Superman jumped Universes, so unless you wan't to argue he has above Universal TP, The Lantern rings are gone.

Well I am going to argue that he did it with TP - and he can't TP Cyborg Superman as all he is is a formless consciousness that can inhabit and become a cyborg with amazing abilities.

As for the Lantern Rings - a Yellow Power Ring runs slightly differently than a GL power ring. It doesn't run based on the users overall willpower but on the users ability to instill fear - and Cyborg Superman is a PROFESSIONAL when it comes to instilling fear. So I don't see how Tangent Superman could remove his ability to instill fear and unless you can prove this to me then the Lantern Rings are still there.

While Harvey was doing that, Kang will of already frozen your team:

We start 90 miles apart - and IIRC that scan of Kang freezing time was only for a rather short radius. Kang would have to get that close & then activate his technology [ which is a bad thing to bring to a fight against Cyborg Superman for reasons you'll see shortly ] which I don't see happening.

Speaking of which - does Kang have any natural powers/abilities or are they all granted to him due to incredibly advanced/powerful technology?

Now that your team is frozen, (or it wouldn't really matter), Kang is going to use his Power nullifier on Despero that he modified during the preptime. If that somehow doesn't work:

I've already explained why I doubt this will work - nobody on your team has knowledge of anyone on my team so I don't see how you could specifically prep for them & spying on my team during your prep seems like it's breaking the rules.

Harvey is going to stop Despero's brain activity, heart, lungs, etc from doing anything

Ah yes - the TK that was used to stop Superman for a short time. He'll have a hard time doing that while being attacked by Rayquaza and Cyborg Superman - or even by Despero himself through means of Telepathy.

Now that Despero is just laying there frozen, and helpless right next to Cyborg Superman. Black Bolt is going to scream as loud as possible

It could harm Rayquaza - who you failed to mention in your battle plan at any point unless I missed something, but I don't see it doing any lasting damage to Despero or Cyborg Superman. Despero has fought off the likes of Superman, Captain Marvel, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Hourman, and Hawkman at the same time - incredible powerhouses.

As for Cyborg Superman - it took a planet sized grenade to KO him & he was only hit by it willingly because at that point he wanted to die.

So I currently feel as if I've debunked a good portion of your plan - time to get into my own view of how this is going down.

The Battle

1. Rayquaza vs Fodder

Raquaza is the weakest member of my team; however, I'll try & get as much usage out of it as I can. So Rayquaza will fly high up into the atmosphere & will seek out your army of fodder that Darkness & Kang brought with them. Once spotted he'll begin showering them with powerful Hyper Beams from above - such an attack might not do anything to phase the main members of your team - but the Darklings and army that Kang brought would be affected by it as Rayquaza used his Hyper Beam attacks to contend with the Legendary Pokemon, Groudon.

Like I said - I don't expect him to contribute anything major to the fight - but at least he can take out some fodder before crashing down.

2. Technology vs Cyborg Superman

This is one of the major roadblocks in your plan - Kang himself & his army are bringing a lot of tech to this fight. You've mentioned that Kang himself is a technopath but Cyborg Superman is a technomorph with incredible capabilities. Due to the fact that he is only an electronic consciousness he cannot only control technology but he can become it and integrate parts of whatever technology he desires into himself and control/manipulate it.

So I currently believe that when it comes to technopathy/technomorphing that Cyborg Superman > Kang.

I suppose I'll drop some feats for CS's control over Technology

Cyborg Superman Controlling 1 Billion Technological Life Forms

So the GLC used 1 Billion technological life forms [ robots ] to attack Cyborg Superman yet he is able to stop them all in their tracks & create a gigantic hand out of them - there are more scans to this battle but it just shows him fighting some Lanterns with his control over the robots & then he battles an Alpha Lantern and hides himself within the inner workings of her body.. which leads us to his next feat.

Cyborg Superman Controlling the JL Watchtower

After his fight with the GLC & hiding in the body of the Alpha Lantern he breaks out & creates a new body for himself out of her own parts in SECONDS. He then takes control of the Watchtower - good job Cyborg Superman!

Cyborg Superman Source Wall Control

This is really here just in case you try to make the argument that Kang's technology would potentially be too advanced or foreign for CS to assault or use against you. Here he controls a portion of the Source Wall & does battle against Blue Energy Superman - eventually hitching a ride back to earth hidden on his body.

So with all that being said - the technology that you just brought to this fight is now being used against your entire team - the Black Bolt Ear buds also won't be working so Kang would be susceptible to BB's scream.

Kang's suit is also technology - so Cyborg Superman can honestly just take control of it & strangle Kang like he did with Steel.

So that would take out Kang & his army pretty easily right from the start - leaving Growing Man, BB, Darkness, Tangent Superman, and Tangent UH.

3. Telepathic Power - My Team vs Your Team

Tangent Superman is pretty tough when it comes to TP Strength - but he hasn't done anything that would put him above MMH to my knowledge, and Despero is leagues above MMH - seriously, he's made MMH drool from his telepathic assaults.

As far as Tangent Superman's TP ability goes I haven't seen anything to put him above MMH - so honestly the same thing should happen.

Also - Despero can physically brawl with anyone on your team - even the combined efforts of your team wouldn't be a stomp against him, in fact he could potentially bring down your entire team by himself or get INCREDIBLY close to solo'ing.

As we see in the scans above he was brawling with an entire group of DC powerhouses - and as far as his strength goes he was able to hold up the Rock of Eternity.

4. Conclusions for my Opener

Alright - I'll bullet note these to make it easier to read. This is just a summary of my opener:

  • Rayquaza brings down as many Darkling Spawns as he can before he gets taken out - Rayquaza's job is just to be a fodder killer.
  • Cyborg Superman uses his control over machines to bring down Kang right off the bat - along with any of Kang's army using Kang's tech.
  • Despero uses his TP to take out Tangent Superman, Tangent Ultra Humanite, BB, and Darkness (?)
  • If Darkness doesn't have a mind to TP then he'll get physically beatdown by Despero & Cyborg Superman. Despero has brawled with groups of DC powerhouses before with ease & Cyborg Superman was able to 3HKO Superman with his Power Rings during the SCW.

I look to see more from Tangent Superman to prove that he could prevent a TP assault from Despero & stuff about Darkness because he's the one I know nothing about.

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#35  Edited By FukYouRenchamp

@thetruebarryallen@lukehero

I'll be honest, I didn't even know Despero had TP, I just thought he had that thing where it automind raped anybody trying to TP him..

So Tangent Superman does indeed have the pill and I'm not going to question your ability to obtain more of them; however, did his wife ever display powers akin to his own levels. I remember her actually being afraid of Harvey during the storyline & I don't see why the Justice League would've had to do much of anything if that had her on their side.

So while the Pills will grant the rest of your team eventual powers - I don't think they'll be as advanced or as powerful as Harvey's - especially since you've only got 2 hours & it took quite a while for Harvey's own abilities to manifest & evolve.

Harvey stated that the pill would make her his equal, but unlike Harvey, she didn't try practicing her powers and etc and just sat locked away so he wouldn't kill her. I mean, If you gave me the Super Soldier Serum, I'd be pretty scared to fight Captain America. You pretty much said it though, Harvey,Orion & Powergirl were taking on everyone in the DCU, and was actually doing alrightish untill his Wife came in, engaged him in a TP battle to distract him while Superman went for the cheapshot KO.

While I admit, They won't be as advanced as Harvey or as powerful, They will have all of his powers to an slightly lesser extent. Still enough for them to be formidable opponents with that alone, exluding the powers they already have.

You're not allowed to leave your location during Prep - I believe you're stuck within the confines of a science lab. So I think that what appears to be traveling through the time stream isn't allowed and time travel isn't allowed in the first place. You can teleport things to you but I don't think you can spy on & learn about my team.

Since nobody on your team has ever had a canon interaction with either Cyborg Superman, Raquaza, or Despero, I don't think Kang will be able to create a power nullifyer for Despero's abilities.

He hasn't said anything yet, and he allowed Darkseid1006 (I think it was him) to leave the battlefield.

Well I am going to argue that he did it with TP - and he can't TP Cyborg Superman as all he is is a formless consciousness that can inhabit and become a cyborg with amazing abilities.

As for the Lantern Rings - a Yellow Power Ring runs slightly differently than a GL power ring. It doesn't run based on the users overall willpower but on the users ability to instill fear - and Cyborg Superman is a PROFESSIONAL when it comes to instilling fear. So I don't see how Tangent Superman could remove his ability to instill fear and unless you can prove this to me then the Lantern Rings are still there.

  • I can't TP Cyborg Superman, but I can TP Despero if I have Universal+ TP, but I don't really plan to go the TP route.
  • But he didn't turn off his willpower, He just shut off the ring. He showed no signs of his willpower being gone in the slighest.
  • While they may operate with different stuff, It would be like saying I couldn't make a 9mm handgun jam because I only did it to a .45.
  • My team isn't really scared of Cyborg Superman, I mean, I don't know about the Yellow rings though.

We start 90 miles apart - and IIRC that scan of Kang freezing time was only for a rather short radius. Kang would have to get that close & then activate his technology [ which is a bad thing to bring to a fight against Cyborg Superman for reasons you'll see shortly ] which I don't see happening.

Speaking of which - does Kang have any natural powers/abilities or are they all granted to him due to incredibly advanced/powerful technology?

  • True, but you'll have to close the distance.
  • He has Captain America level stats, and a Tony Stark/Doom level intellect. So like Doom meets Extermis Iron Man I guess.

I've already explained why I doubt this will work - nobody on your team has knowledge of anyone on my team so I don't see how you could specifically prep for them & spying on my team during your prep seems like it's breaking the rules.

He allowed it for another match, so it would be kind of unfair for me to not get the same privilege.

Ah yes - the TK that was used to stop Superman for a short time. He'll have a hard time doing that while being attacked by Rayquaza and Cyborg Superman - or even by Despero himself through means of Telepathy.

With the combined efforts of all my team, I believe they can ward off Despero long enough for one of them to shut him down.

It could harm Rayquaza - who you failed to mention in your battle plan at any point

I'm going to be competely honest, I forgot about him..

but I don't see it doing any lasting damage to Despero or Cyborg Superman. Despero has fought off the likes of Superman, Captain Marvel, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Hourman, and Hawkman at the same time - incredible powerhouses.

I forgot to add, In that WWH scan, That was a much weaker Skrull. FYI, and in the Planet Destroying/Ripping a hole through reality thing he was technically "amped", Not in the "sundipped" kind of way but he used a machine that made it so the soundwaves wouldn't fade. It was mainly making it a full-scream the entire time instead of a scream that slowly faded.

While its laughable to say Black Bolt is anywhere close to Thano's level, He was capable of destroying his armor and hurting him with multiple screams:

No Caption Provided

So to say it wouldn't do any damage to Despero is an understatement.

Raquaza is the weakest member of my team; however, I'll try & get as much usage out of it as I can. So Rayquaza will fly high up into the atmosphere & will seek out your army of fodder that Darkness & Kang brought with them. Once spotted he'll begin showering them with powerful Hyper Beams from above - such an attack might not do anything to phase the main members of your team - but the Darklings and army that Kang brought would be affected by it as Rayquaza used his Hyper Beam attacks to contend with the Legendary Pokemon, Groudon.

I have a good feeling that Rayquaza is going to get one shot

No Caption Provided

This is one of the major roadblocks in your plan - Kang himself & his army are bringing a lot of tech to this fight. You've mentioned that Kang himself is a technopath but Cyborg Superman is a technomorph with incredible capabilities. Due to the fact that he is only an electronic consciousness he cannot only control technology but he can become it and integrate parts of whatever technology he desires into himself and control/manipulate it.

So I currently believe that when it comes to technopathy/technomorphing that Cyborg Superman > Kang.

I'll be honest, I won't try to make the argument that Kang's technopathy is better then CSM, but its enough to ward him off if he trys it.

Also, It isn't really a go-to move for Cyborg Supernigga all the time:

No Caption Provided

Tangent Superman is pretty tough when it comes to TP Strength - but he hasn't done anything that would put him above MMH to my knowledge, and Despero is leagues above MMH - seriously, he's made MMH drool from his telepathic assaults.

All true, I don't expect to be mindraping Despero but with the combined effort of my team, its enough to keep him at bay while one of my team shuts down his organs.

While Darkness is no powerhouse physchially, He was able to go toe-to-toe with Superman in a crossover, and before you asked, I checked, Its canon to The Darkness, but it isn't canon to DC.

He was also able to hold Superman in a dragon-esque darkling for a while untill he used his heat vison and the sun came out:

P.S, Remember when I said I was prepping the big and bad ones during Prep too and not just the little guys?
  • Rayquaza brings down as many Darkling Spawns as he can before he gets taken out - Rayquaza's job is just to be a fodder killer.

Who honestly gets one shot.

  • Cyborg Superman uses his control over machines to bring down Kang right off the bat - along with any of Kang's army using Kang's tech.

Not really always a go-to move.

  • Despero uses his TP to take out Tangent Superman, Tangent Ultra Humanite, BB, and Darkness (?)

I still just don't see how he takes out any of them with TP before Superman with his planetary TK stops Despero's brainflow and stuff.

  • If Darkness doesn't have a mind to TP then he'll get physically beatdown by Despero & Cyborg Superman. Despero has brawled with groups of DC powerhouses before with ease & Cyborg Superman was able to 3HKO Superman with his Power Rings during the SCW.

Jackie Estacdo (I never spell it right), has a mind but you'll be dealing with an universal entity that has existed before light trying to enter it, but I'm using Jackie D, a doppelganger with all his abilitys,memorys,etc but without the light weakness, and on top of that, he is made of pure darkness. So not really a mind to TP.

While Tangent Superman didn't put him down for too long, he put down Superman with two moves for a while.

Round Two:

  1. While your team has done all that, I've got a question. Whats going to happen if I teleport say, A darkling of this size into Despero's head, He does it quite numerous times throughout the series. Not usually that big, but bigger is better, amirite?
  2. Or what If I teleport this:

2. into Cyborg Supernigga's head?

What if, Jackie becomes a Godzilla sized Darkness Monster giving him a massive strength buff and giving him more darkness to play with?

No Caption Provided

Oh and Jackie can create extra doppelgangers that can operate on their own just to give your team even more trouble: (They all have his powers)

No Caption Provided

Assuming you kill one of my team, lets say you killed Kang like you keep trying to go on about, Jackie can simply rebuild him cell-by-cell and put him back into the fight:

No Caption Provided

He is also able to break down people into Darkness, decent speed, eventually you'd fall:

No Caption Provided

He also has quite a few healing feats like being able to heal from a Jawbone, a torso, being ripped in half, stabbing himself with a sun dagger in the heart and healing really fast (Pretty much the equivalent of Superman stabbing himself with a kryptonite dagger next to a red son) and etc.

You also did the whole "Well it has a short range so you can freeze me in place" thing, I guess thats true, but even ignoring all the other ways I can take your team out, even if Despero gets a shot in on Kang, He would still get frozen in place. He just isn't fast enough to get past the shields before being frozen (If he isn't dead by teleporting that thing or something else into his brain, or by shutting down his brain flow/blood and etc) by then, Then its just the same with Cyborg Superman.

He kills Kang, Black Bolt or Superman, they get brought back instantly.

I believe with my 2 hours of prep that Jackie can summon countless Darklings and one capable of holding Superman for a little while (He created that one instantly right before Superman, so he can create quite a few). While they won't hold Cyborg Supernigga for long, he'll eventually fall with all the Darklings, having stuff teleported into his head (The mass has to go somewhere!), the armys, Growing Man, Humanite and etc, I think I take a win.

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@lukehero: Before we go on - I had a question that didn't get answered. Is Kang going to be able to "go out of time" and spy on Cyborg Superman & Despero during his 2 hours of prep?

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@pr0metheus: @thetruebarryallen: No time travel. Time Manipulation is fine though.

Like freezing people in time & stuff like that. Which one does this fall under?

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@thetruebarryallen: @pr0metheus: Well then, there's your answer. Also remember you can't cross the black line during prep & you can't leave the battlefield during prep.

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@pr0metheus: The plot thickens!

Round 2 // Counters & Clarifications

Harvey stated that the pill would make her his equal, but unlike Harvey, she didn't try practicing her powers and etc and just sat locked away so he wouldn't kill her. I mean, If you gave me the Super Soldier Serum, I'd be pretty scared to fight Captain America. You pretty much said it though, Harvey,Orion & Powergirl were taking on everyone in the DCU, and was actually doing alrightish untill his Wife came in, engaged him in a TP battle to distract him while Superman went for the cheapshot KO.

I figured - and yeah, I get what you're saying about her being afraid even though she was claimed to be his equal. The TP battle + cheap shot KO seems like something my team could potentially exploit, but I'll address that later.

While I admit, They won't be as advanced as Harvey or as powerful, They will have all of his powers to an slightly lesser extent. Still enough for them to be formidable opponents with that alone, exluding the powers they already have.

Indeed your team is formidable - but alas, so is mine!

He hasn't said anything yet, and he allowed Darkseid1006 (I think it was him) to leave the battlefield.

So I think Luke just helped clear this one up - your team can't cross the Black Line - so while you can manipulate your side of the battlefield to your own personal pleasure I don't think you can do anything to scout out my side, scout out my team, or gain knowledge on them beforehand.

I can't TP Cyborg Superman, but I can TP Despero if I have Universal+ TP, but I don't really plan to go the TP route.

I'm still waiting for the real proof that Cyborg Superman has Universal+ TP. Sure, he shut down John Stewarts GL ring and tracked Hal who was using his ring to search for John IIRC - there isn't much that can be found about Tangent Superman and all the images within his respect thread are broken.

Currently I'd still be putting Despero >>> Tangent Superman due to the fact that he's mentally manhandled Martian Manhunter on multiple occassions - and his third eye protects him from telepathy - even Starro couldn't get past it & wasn't able to put him under his control until he eliminated his third eye.

But he didn't turn off his willpower, He just shut off the ring. He showed no signs of his willpower being gone in the slighest.

If we turn the debate into Tangent Superman affecting just the ring in terms of it's operations & inner-workings then I don't see how TP is involved at all. Since the Rings seem more to be mechanical & technological [ having AI programmed into them & not being Magical such as Alan Scotts ] then wouldn't this be a technopathic argument - and Cyborg Superman has shown much more technopathic proficiency than Cyborg Superman has.

My team isn't really scared of Cyborg Superman, I mean, I don't know about the Yellow rings though.

I mean - it's not really in our power to say if they would or wouldn't be afraid - the power from the Yellow Rings comes from the users ability to control their own fear & instill fear in others, so the rings would be effective on every member of your team.

True, but you'll have to close the distance.

Are you saying that Cyborg Superman would have to close the distance to control Kang's technology - because that's not true. Cyborg Superman is a planetary level technopath.

As we see in the scans above he was able to take total control of the Tribunal Planet - and he did what he did to Steel without being close to him - plus in the scans that I showed earlier against the GLC he held of 1 billion robots with his technopathy.

So I don't see Cyborg Superman actually having to close any sort of distance.

He allowed it for another match, so it would be kind of unfair for me to not get the same privilege.

Could you link to that match that'd be great - because currently the rules state you can't cross the Black Line during Prep & I don't see how you're going to spy on my team without crossing that line or even gather their weaknesses/design weapons designed to nullify Despero's powers.

Nobody on your team has matched up against my team before.

With the combined efforts of all my team, I believe they can ward off Despero long enough for one of them to shut him down.

How are any of them planning to shut them down - none of them have TP on his level & he's naturally got incredible TP resistance due to his third eye. If you're talking about telekinetically crushing his organs then he'll just regenerate, same as he did when his head was lopped off by Starro the Conqueror & after he became a formless consciousness.

Regrowing some organs is much easier than regrowing your entire body - so Despero's healing factor can cover that. I'm also debating if your team could even do that before he telepathically shuts everyone on your team down - you yourself stated that Tangent Superman's wife was able to engage him in a TP battle & she didn't practice with her powers - and Despero is leagues above her.

So to say it wouldn't do any damage to Despero is an understatement.

I didn't say it wouldn't do any damage - I just said it wouldn't do anything lasting to Despero nor would it be something that would put him out of the fight.

BB could easily 1 shot Rayquaza haha and I won't deny that.

Also, It isn't really a go-to move for Cyborg Supernigga all the time:

Interesting nickname - bahaha - as for it not being a go-to move, he's done it plenty of times in the past for it to be a plausible starting move, especially since you brought an entire army with you he'll want to shut them down ASAP.

In his fight with the GLC he used his technopathy to disable 1 billion robots & then use them against the GLC.

He used it in one of his earlier appearances against Steel - as I've shown - he also used it later in that fight to disable Superman of a gun/blaster he was using:

As Cyborg Superman himself states: A mechanical device is of no use to someone who can 'inhabit' it and control it any way he wants. I don't see Kang or his army of robots being able to do anything to prevent their downfall here. Technology just CAN'T be used against Cyborg Superman.

All true, I don't expect to be mindraping Despero but with the combined effort of my team, its enough to keep him at bay while one of my team shuts down his organs.

Shutting down someones organs becomes especially more difficult when that someone can regenerate from a formless consciousness & end up turning your team into a pile of drooling vegetables with a simple thought.

While Darkness is no powerhouse physchially, He was able to go toe-to-toe with Superman in a crossover, and before you asked, I checked, Its canon to The Darkness, but it isn't canon to DC.

Cyborg Superman has shown up Superman in combat in practically all of their encounters - he's Superman but without the Kryptonite weakness, he's still got his heat vision & he's more ruthless and willing to kill.

Combine this with his 10 power rings that enabled him to 3HKO Superman & I don't see Darkness being able to do anything.

Even with your larger & more powerful dark constructs - they don't pose a threat to the being who has the power of 10 Yellow Power Rings & the abilities of Superman without his weaknesses - as well as him being able to transfer his consciousness into ANY piece of technology & rebuild himself. Thankfully you've supplied CS with a lot to work with due to your prep.

Darkness doesn't pose a true threat to anyone on my team but Rayquaza - and I don't even plan on Rayquaza doing anything besides attacking fodder - speaking of which those Darklings would be weak to his Hyper Beams due to the fact that they're pure energy & incredibly bright.

I still just don't see how he takes out any of them with TP before Superman with his planetary TK stops Despero's brainflow and stuff.

Tangent Superman has done that once from what I've seen - it's not generally a "go to move" from what I've seen of him. Plus - it takes a thought to target those organs just as it takes a thought to use telepathy. With Despero having his healing factor to restore his organs while also shutting down Tangent Superman's brain I see Despero doing just fine against the majority of your team - heck, I feel as if Despero could potentially solo BB, Darkness, and Tangent Superman - and it won't take CS long to take down Kang & his army.

Battle Counters // Points brought from Pr0's R2

While your team has done all that, I've got a question. Whats going to happen if I teleport say, A darkling of this size into Despero's head, He does it quite numerous times throughout the series. Not usually that big, but bigger is better, amirite?

The link didn't work so I don't know what you're referring to in terms of size. Is it ever a 1st move for Jackie to make in a fight - why wouldn't he just have done that to Superman?

Despero shuts down the minds of everyone on your team while regenerating [ if he has to ] any damaged internal organs. Cyborg Superman solo's Darkness with the light from his Yellow Power Rings + Heat Vision.

Or what If I teleport thisnto Cyborg Supernigga's head?

You're trying to teleport a mechanical doomsday device into the head of a man who can control any mechanical device? Even if you managed to do so without Cyborg Superman taking control of it [ which he would - with ease ] then his head would explode & he'd leave his body and inhabit one of the many technical objects you've brought with you to this fight & rebuild his body in seconds.

He was able to rebuild his body from common toys in seconds - he can do so with Kang's super advanced technology.

I've already shown him rebuilding his body from the remains of an Alpha Lantern in seconds.

He also has quite a few healing feats like being able to heal from a Jawbone, a torso, being ripped in half, stabbing himself with a sun dagger in the heart and healing really fast (Pretty much the equivalent of Superman stabbing himself with a kryptonite dagger next to a red son) and etc.

Awesome - both CS & Despero have the same healing factors.

You also did the whole "Well it has a short range so you can freeze me in place" thing, I guess thats true, but even ignoring all the other ways I can take your team out, even if Despero gets a shot in on Kang, He would still get frozen in place. He just isn't fast enough to get past the shields before being frozen (If he isn't dead by teleporting that thing or something else into his brain, or by shutting down his brain flow/blood and etc) by then, Then its just the same with Cyborg Superman.

I don't understand who you're addressing here - but nobody on my team would be frozen in place & I don't know what shields you're talking about that I'd have to get past.

Cyborg Superman eliminates Kang & his army from the fight ASAP - then uses his Rings & Heat Vision to burn away every essence of Jackie D to prevent him from respawning anyone on his team.

Despero manhandles Tangent Superman and BB with his TP before they can shut down any of his organs - plus I don't see that being a move that BB would make right off the bat with his newfound abilities if Tangent Superman doens't use it right from the get-go.

He kills Kang, Black Bolt or Superman, they get brought back instantly.

He kills Darkness - nobody get's brought back.

I believe with my 2 hours of prep that Jackie can summon countless Darklings and one capable of holding Superman for a little while (He created that one instantly right before Superman, so he can create quite a few). While they won't hold Cyborg Supernigga for long, he'll eventually fall with all the Darklings, having stuff teleported into his head (The mass has to go somewhere!), the armys, Growing Man, Humanite and etc, I think I take a win.

Cyborg Superman doesn't tire - he elimantes Kang from the fight ASAP & then uses his heat vision & his 10 Lantern Rings to emulate the heat of the Sun to vaporize every bit of Jackie D's essence thus preventing him from bringing anyone back to life.

Rayquaza & Cyborg Superman work on taking out the fodder - should be incredibly easy - the Darklings are all weak to heat vision & hyper beams.

Despero uses TP to dominate Tangent Superman & BB - both of which haven't shown any sort of resistance to Despero's level of TP.

You can teleport as much crap as you want to the head of Cyborg Superman - but all he is is a consciousness that inhabits electronically devices and technology - he can rebuild his body out of everything Kang supplied him with over and over and over and over again.

I don't think you take a win.

The Battle [ Summary ]

Cyborg Superman uses his technopathy [ planetary level ] to strangle Kang inside his armor & eliminate all of his robots right when the match begins.

He did the same to an Army on Apokalypse:

Rayquaza uses his Hyper Beams on the Darklings - he could potentially be one shot by the more powerful members of your team such as Tangent Superman or BB - but they'd have to hit him + they're already being preoccupied by Despero.

Despero feels a tingling on his innards - Tangent Superman must be trying to crush his organs like he did with Superman. Despero; however, has TP of his own & can fight back against the assault without moving [ unlike Superman ] and shuts down Tangent Superman & BB.

Heck - he could put them under Mind Control like he did with Aquaman & Martian Manhunter & use them to combat Jackie before putting them down permanently:

Meanwhile Cyborg Superman is battling Jackie D & uses the combined might of his Lantern Rings + Heatvision, along with his far superior speed to blitz Jackie & fire beams of light as hot as the sun to vaporize him & any of his Darklings.

You may have a numbers advantage - but it's all fodder - and you don't have any ways to permanently put down CS or Despero given your team.

I think I've said all I need to - if we both want to make closing posts I'd love to, as I don't see anything that you could do at this point to prove my strategy wrong.

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#42  Edited By FukYouRenchamp

@thetruebarryallen@lukehero

This will be my final post.

I'm still waiting for the real proof that Cyborg Superman has Universal+ TP. Sure, he shut down John Stewarts GL ring and tracked Hal who was using his ring to search for John IIRC - there isn't much that can be found about Tangent Superman and all the images within his respect thread are broken.

Currently I'd still be putting Despero >>> Tangent Superman due to the fact that he's mentally manhandled Martian Manhunter on multiple occassions - and his third eye protects him from telepathy - even Starro couldn't get past it & wasn't able to put him under his control until he eliminated his third eye.

In the Story Arc, John and Hal were captured (Harvey & Supergirl captured them respectively), Harvey nullified their ability to use their rings and it was still in effect AFTER he jumped to Earth-0. Meaning if he was doing it with TP, He would of had to keep doing it from across a universe instead of just doing a one-off deactivating the rings with Telekinesis.

He was able to competely mindrape John, and Hal I believe..

Also, considering he was taking on the majority of DC earth, it seems likely they would of been combing telepaths to overcome him.

If we turn the debate into Tangent Superman affecting just the ring in terms of it's operations & inner-workings then I don't see how TP is involved at all. Since the Rings seem more to be mechanical & technological [ having AI programmed into them & not being Magical such as Alan Scotts ] then wouldn't this be a technopathic argument - and Cyborg Superman has shown much more technopathic proficiency than Cyborg Superman has.

It never said Tangent Supernigga was a technopath (Unless I'm forgetting), so it would be TK not technopathy.

Are you saying that Cyborg Superman would have to close the distance to control Kang's technology - because that's not true. Cyborg Superman is a planetary level technopath.

No, for Kang to freeze him. Kang has also controlled all computers on the planet at the same time:

No Caption Provided

How are any of them planning to shut them down - none of them have TP on his level & he's naturally got incredible TP resistance due to his third eye. If you're talking about telekinetically crushing his organs then he'll just regenerate, same as he did when his head was lopped off by Starro the Conqueror & after he became a formless consciousness.

Regrowing some organs is much easier than regrowing your entire body - so Despero's healing factor can cover that. I'm also debating if your team could even do that before he telepathically shuts everyone on your team down - you yourself stated that Tangent Superman's wife was able to engage him in a TP battle & she didn't practice with her powers - and Despero is leagues above her.

I meant shutting him down by stopping his brain from flowing. He can't do anything if its not and you can't really heal that unless I just stop doing it.

But I'm not "Crushing" your organs, I'm stopping them. You can't heal the bloodflow from stopping, I can also honestly say that Harvey is quicker on the draw, He was able to send a TK blast to Tangent Flash before she could speed blitz him. How fast is Tangent Flash though? Enough to appear as a blur to Wally West multiple times throughout the comics, and despite her being immune to TP, being able to make 1000's of copies of herself and can transform into anything she wants, have energy projection and laxed morals, She was terrfied of Harvey.

So I think that fact that he outdrawed Tangent Flash means hes faster then Despero on the draw.

Also, I thought I said this in a previous post, My bad I guess, Like you said, She wasn't his equal, He said "Your not on my level [Enter her name]", "Normally Yes, but you've been burning your energy reserves all day" - Refering to him holding off the DCU.

Tangent Superman has done that once from what I've seen - it's not generally a "go to move" from what I've seen of him. Plus - it takes a thought to target those organs just as it takes a thought to use telepathy. With Despero having his healing factor to restore his organs while also shutting down Tangent Superman's brain I see Despero doing just fine against the majority of your team - heck, I feel as if Despero could potentially solo BB, Darkness, and Tangent Superman - and it won't take CS long to take down Kang & his army.

He did it 3 times I believe. Its pretty different to say what a go-to move would be for a guy that only has around 12ish appearences then aganist a guy that has like 300.

You're trying to teleport a mechanical doomsday device into the head of a man who can control any mechanical device? Even if you managed to do so without Cyborg Superman taking control of it [ which he would - with ease ] then his head would explode & he'd leave his body and inhabit one of the many technical objects you've brought with you to this fight & rebuild his body in seconds.

It still has to go off if its started but even if you can deactivate it, I can teleport in a regular darkling to activate it again.

I then have Kang pull it out the timestream 1 second before he took it last, and do it.

It doesn't really make sense that CSM can harm Superman with toys or use heat vison with a rebuilt body..

I don't understand who you're addressing here - but nobody on my team would be frozen in place & I don't know what shields you're talking about that I'd have to get past.

Cyborg Superman eliminates Kang & his army from the fight ASAP - then uses his Rings & Heat Vision to burn away every essence of Jackie D to prevent him from respawning anyone on his team.

Despero manhandles Tangent Superman and BB with his TP before they can shut down any of his organs - plus I don't see that being a move that BB would make right off the bat with his newfound abilities if Tangent Superman doens't use it right from the get-go.

Why wouldn't they be frozen in place?, You said before that the time freezeing has a short range, I admit that and said yes you'll have to get close but you'll close the distance for me, and by the time you get close enough and attack me, you'll be frozen, but even if you get a hit or two in, it isn't enough to take down Kang's shields before he could freeze you.

It has been able to tank blows from Thor quite easily, and has even tanked blows from Warrior Madness Thor:

1-3: Shrugging off a beating from Thor

4-5: Taking a beating from WM Thor

Despero is stronger then Tangent Superman, I admit, but his versatality to competely shut down his brainflow overcomes any brute strength advantage.

He kills Darkness - nobody get's brought back.

Well you can't really put down The Darkness unless you plan to competely vaporize him somehow, He hasn't ever had that done to him so that is possibly one of the only ways to kill him. (Unless you've got a Witchblade), But even that is harder done then said, he fought a guy that was literally radiating light and wasn't taking too much damage, and once the guy was taken out, he healed within 2ish pages despite that competely weakening him:

He has carried a dagger made from several suns within his body, and was able to keep on regenerating.

Read from Right to Left

Also Jackie D, Is once again, competely 100% made of Darkness and isn't human in any shape or form. He can competely become a shadow/intangible if he wants:

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He has compete control over his form:

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Just to further this point, his MUCH weaker sister who has nowhere near his control of Darkness is able to just redirect any attacks inflicted upon her self into shadows, as a better explanation, A guy shot at her with a shotgun, when the bullets hit her, they were redirected to the shadow on the floor so he was basicly shooting the floor.

Rayquaza uses his Hyper Beams on the Darklings - he could potentially be one shot by the more powerful members of your team such as Tangent Superman or BB - but they'd have to hit him + they're already being preoccupied by Despero.

Despero feels a tingling on his innards - Tangent Superman must be trying to crush his organs like he did with Superman. Despero; however, has TP of his own & can fight back against the assault without moving [ unlike Superman ] and shuts down Tangent Superman & BB.

Or, like I showed in the scan I posted in the last post of mine, He gets one shot by Darkness on sight

But once again, He didn't attempt to crush his organs, he was shutting them down:

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Heck - he could put them under Mind Control like he did with Aquaman & Martian Manhunter & use them to combat Jackie before putting them down permanently:

If Despero is leagues above MMH, How was MMH able to combat him once he stopped holding back?

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@lukehero

You can open it to votes once TTBA makes his closing post unless he adds debate-breaking info.

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@pr0metheus: Alright - Final post on my end, I don't believe I'll be posting any debate breaking info - just reinforcing the points I've made thus far in the debate.

Before I get started I just wanted to thank you for a fun debate, regardless of the outcome it's been a good one.

Round 3 // Final Postings

I'll begin by addressing some of the things you've said here - clarifications, agreements, the such.

In the Story Arc, John and Hal were captured (Harvey & Supergirl captured them respectively), Harvey nullified their ability to use their rings and it was still in effect AFTER he jumped to Earth-0. Meaning if he was doing it with TP, He would of had to keep doing it from across a universe instead of just doing a one-off deactivating the rings with Telekinesis.

Hm - potentially, but I guess in my opinion the argument here seems a tad weak. Harvey never mentions that he's used TP to block out the rings effects nor does it make sense that telepathy would render the rings useless unless he was targeting both Hal and John's willpower specifically thus rendering them unable to use their weapons.

Nor do I see how Telekinesis would have shut the rings down - I guess I just don't see the whole "Universal TP & TK" argument holding up here, maybe the voters will think otherwise.

He was able to competely mindrape John, and Hal I believe

Cyborg Superman was able to use his Willhunter Nanites to do the same to Hal - who only escaped due to the help of another GL.

Also, considering he was taking on the majority of DC earth, it seems likely they would of been combing telepaths to overcome him.

He took on some powerful foes - but unless there were Telepaths there targeting him or if there were mentions of a telepathic assault I don't think we can assume that there were telepaths combating him.

No, for Kang to freeze him. Kang has also controlled all computers on the planet at the same time

It looks like Kang just had a broadcast going out worldwide - I don't see it anywhere on there that would showcase it was due to his technopathy that he was doing that.

CS was manipulating the entire planet.

I meant shutting him down by stopping his brain from flowing. He can't do anything if its not and you can't really heal that unless I just stop doing it.

Ah - alright. I don't think that's an instant kill; however, or else Superman would've gone down ASAP. It'd hurt and would probably put him down if done for an extended period of time - but I still don't see anything that would suggest that Harvey is going to be faster on the draw when compared to Despero.

But I'm not "Crushing" your organs, I'm stopping them. You can't heal the bloodflow from stopping, I can also honestly say that Harvey is quicker on the draw, He was able to send a TK blast to Tangent Flash before she could speed blitz him. How fast is Tangent Flash though? Enough to appear as a blur to Wally West multiple times throughout the comics, and despite her being immune to TP, being able to make 1000's of copies of herself and can transform into anything she wants, have energy projection and laxed morals, She wasterrfied of Harvey.

No - but that's not an instant kill either, Despero can still function for a long enough period of time to turn Despero into a drooling fool.

As far as Harvey being faster - Despero was able to tag Flash [ Wally ] with a slash of his claws - it should also be noted that he's fighting the entirety of the Justice League & has several of them under telepathic control while he's physically fighting the rest of em.

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Mirror Master can make 1000's of copies of himself in seconds - but that still wouldn't put him above Wally in terms of speed. Lia was a being made of light, she was quick, but in terms of feats she doesn't actually compare or stack up to Wally.

So I think that fact that he outdrawed Tangent Flash means hes faster then Despero on the draw.

At best he's equal.

It still has to go off if its started but even if you can deactivate it, I can teleport in a regular darkling to activate it again.

I don't even think you'd have the time to teleport a doomsday device into CS's head - granted his head isn't hollow on the inside so I don't know where you're planning on actually attempting to put it - but this whole plan doesn't work out. Once again using technological devices just doesn't work against Cyborg Superman.

I then have Kang pull it out the timestream 1 second before he took it last, and do it.

A minor distraction at best - I don't see Kang having the reaction time to even attempt this before Cyborg Superman crushes him inside his armor via technopathy. Cyborg Superman doesn't need to move.

It doesn't really make sense that CSM can harm Superman with toys or use heat vison with a rebuilt body..

Lot's of things don't really make sense in comics - like the fact that after being irradiated he turned into a floating consciousness that can travel into technological devices and bring them to life - but hey, comics!

He's done it - he's made bodies out of all sorts of tech & they've all held up against Superman or similar foes.

Why wouldn't they be frozen in place?, You said before that the time freezeing has a short range, I admit that and said yes you'll have to get close but you'll close the distance for me, and by the time you get close enough and attack me, you'll be frozen, but even if you get a hit or two in, it isn't enough to take down Kang's shields before he could freeze you.

I won't be closing any distance - Cyborg Superman would see Kang & his army, look at all the tech, and use all the tech against them, make their weapons explode, crush them while they're inside their suits, etc.

Cyborg Superman isn't going to just run up and physically brawl against an entire army, that'd be incredibly stupid of him, and Hank isn't dumb.

Despero is stronger then Tangent Superman, I admit, but his versatality to competely shut down his brainflow overcomes any brute strength advantage.

Despero also has the telepathic advantage - if Tangent Superman's best feats in terms of telepathy/telekinesis are shutting down two lantern rings then Despero's feats clearly put him above TS.

I honestly just don't see TS trying to shut down Despero's brain with no knowledge of the character or his abilities as a first resort, sure if he was getting punished by Despero or if your team was vastly outnumbered he might resort to it, but you even said he's done it a limited amount of times - and even then it didn't kill Superman.

Well you can't really put down The Darkness unless you plan to competely vaporize him somehow, He hasn't ever had that done to him so that is possibly one of the only ways to kill him. (Unless you've got a Witchblade), But even that is harder done then said, he fought a guy that was literally radiating light and wasn't taking too much damage, and once the guy was taken out, he healed within 2ish pages despite that competely weakening him:

To begin with Cyborg Superman can create weapons designed to target his foes weaknesses in real time during battle:

As he says in the 4th scan - he can adapt his mechanical body into a weapon for each of them.

The battlefield is also quite... bright, we weren't given a specific time of day for our fight but it looks like daytime from the image given. Even if it wasn't the output from Cyborg Superman's 10 Yellow Lantern Rings concentrated on Jackie AND his Heat Vision [ which was shown to hurt him from the Superman battle ] then I see Jackie getting completely vaporized.

The scans with the man irradiating light - he wasn't that bright nor was there tons of light there, and with the dagger it was only a small damage output due to the size of the dagger.

Or, like I showed in the scan I posted in the last post of mine, He gets one shot by Darkness on sight

Honestly - I don't think your (2) point character has the potential to 1 shot my (8) point character or else the balance in this tournament is totally off.

If Despero is leagues above MMH, How was MMH able to combat him once he stopped holding back?

Well - you've shown New 52 Scans there - see?

I'm not using New 52 Despero - so those scans are totally irrelevant; however, even if they were relevant MMH got stomped pretty hard in their encounter during Forever Evil.

Final Points // Conclusions

1. Cyborg Superman doesn't need to get close to Kang to take control of his tech - that was the purpose of showing the potential of his technopathy from a distance. This means that Kang & his army are getting shutdown before he's able to use his Doomsday Device [ which I've proven wouldn't work in the first place ] on Cyborg Superman AND before he can stop my team in time.

2. Despero has far more feats the TP department when compared to Tangent Superman - the fact that he was able to hold off Starro the Conqueror and not INSTANTLY fall under his control when he had the power of Hundreds of Trillions of Minds linked to his own shows that. He's also dropped MMH multiple times with ease & taken control of SEVERAL members of the Justice League at the same time.

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Yeah - Despero didn't WIN this encounter - but Starro the Conqueror could probably solo both of our teams at the same time. The feat here is the sheer amount of power that Despero was standing up against & holding his own, Tangent Superman isn't even close to Starro's level so that whole TP/TK thing seems truly ineffective.

Even if Tangent Superman was faster on the draw & he began shutting down Desperos Heart/Brain it's not an instant kill, it didn't instantly bring down Superman - I don't even think it KOed Superman.

Despero will be shutting down the minds of BB & TS with ease.

3. Darkness is powerful - but he doesn't possess the ability to bring down Cyborg Superman - even if he did somehow kill Despero he can't put down Cyborg Superman. The battlefield is now littered with technology with incredible capabilities due to Kang's prep & Cyborg Superman has the power of his Heat Vision & 10 Yellow Power Rings on his side - he can vaporize Darkness quite easily.

It's been a fun battle - I think we're both ready to open up for voting now @lukehero since I didn't bring in any 'debate breaking' points here. Mostly just reinforcing my other points.

Best of luck, dude!

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#45  Edited By FukYouRenchamp

@thetruebarryallen Yeah it was fun.

I'd like to add, It did put down Superman (The shutting down thing) but he stopped almost immeditley after having to engage everyone else, he didn't really have a chance to focus on it. He in this has multiple people that can all do it thereself.

I read it, nothing else to add, Open it up @lukehero.

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#46  Edited By FukYouRenchamp
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@pr0metheus: I will most definitely do so bro, but give me about a day.

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@pr0metheus: I'm just going to respond to your last minute addition.

You mention that it dropped Superman but only briefly because then he was attacked by everyone else. I see another distraction being Cyborg Superman assaulting your team while they try & focus on shutting Despero down - even a short opening gives Despero the chance to quickly recover & then shut Tangent Superman and the rest of your team down.

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@thetruebarryallen: Yes, BUT

  1. Any of my team can now do it
  2. I've got countless fodder (even if you take control of part of it, I can create bigger and badder ones)
  3. You've only got two people instead of the dozens that were distracting Tangent by himself