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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio

High tier Pick a team tourney: Round 3

@major_hellstorm

  • Cyborg Superman
  • Loki
  • Darkness
  • 1 day of prep
  • Perfect teamwork

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Versus

@mr_ingenuity

  • Nate Grey
  • Quasar
  • Silver Surfer
  • Full Knowledge
  • Morals Off
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Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than city level.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't tell me the only match that I get to debate in is the match I feared most.

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#3 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I have a few questions, can I leave the battlefield during prep? Are Norn Stones considered standard gear?

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#7 Edited by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm said:

@emperorthanos: I have a few questions, can I leave the battlefield during prep? Are Norn Stones considered standard gear?

No to the first one. Second one is up to you to prove.

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#8 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: @emperorthanos: Cool. I will have an opener up tommorow or the day after, I haven't been this scared of a match in a while. Good job ET, but I think I can pull off a close debate.

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#12 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I'll wait since you have prep.

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#13 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I can start working on my post today. One question though, does my team know who we are fighting? Not basic knowledge just a name and face.

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#14 Edited by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I can start working on my post today. One question though, does my team know who we are fighting? Not basic knowledge just a name and face.

No they don't but to be fair there is no one else on the planet

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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: So while I do prep Ingenuity's team is just chilling on the same planet? Also how much tech is in here? The pic in the OP shows robots so I'm going to assume more than Earth.

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#16 Posted by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: So while I do prep Ingenuity's team is just chilling on the same planet? Also how much tech is in here? The pic in the OP shows robots so I'm going to assume more than Earth.

No they only get dropped on the planet after . And yeah a little more tech than earth

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#17 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

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Cyborg Superman

Cyborg Superman was once a brilliant scientist named Hank Henshaw who while on a trip to space encountered a radiation storm which mutated him and his colleagues, but instead of turning elastic, Hank got radiation poisoning which made his flesh fall out of his bones and ended up killing him.....or so he thought, what actually happened was his body died but his consciousness lived on, so Henshaw's mind was transferred to the body a machine and shortly after that (after his wife and Supes died), he became known as the Cyborg Superman.

Now Cyborg Supes is a powerhouse who is capable of taking on the Eradicator, Superboy, Supergirl and Steel at the same time. But he is more than just a powerhouse, he is a technopath as well who can control millions of bots at the same time as well as repair himself with other pieces of tech or machines.

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The Darkness

The Darkness is the oldest part of creation, since I have composite Darkness I won't dive into the entire backstory of every Darkness user, for now I will only give the backstory of Jackie Estacado. Jackie was once a normal man, until he turned 21 that is, because when he turned 21 his Darkness power awoke and with it he became a powerful mob boss and anti-hero. 2K games has a good recap here.

To keep it simple I will say that the Darkness is basically an entity like the Green and Jackie is basically it's Swamp Thing.

Power wise the Darkness can do almost anything wherever it exists. It can summon hoards of darklings (creatures made of shadows basically), create water/acid/explosives/weapons etc., allow the user to make portals to the dark dimension/realm (where everything is pitch black), give the user super stats and giant Godzilla suits.

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Loki

Everyone should know who Loki is by now but here is a quick bio. Loki is Thor's half-brother and the god of lies, he is a trickster and mage who uses various spells to fight his brother and other high tiers.

Loki is my team spell caster, he is well versed in all types of magic be it empowerment, enchantment, curses, voodoo or healing, Loki is skilled in them all. However Loki is a type of guy who avoids direct confrontation unless he has a clear advantage so he mostly specializes in illusions and manipulation. He is so good in fact that he can trick the likes of Odin and Doctor Doom.

Some Feats:

For now I will give you a sample of what my team can do, fro Cyborg Supes I will give you strength, speed and energy projection scans, for Jackie I will give you summoning scans and for Loki I will give you a magic energy scan. Anyway without further ado, here they are:

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  • Speed blitzes Superman.
  • Blitzes through a version of Doomsday who was beating him earlier.
  • OHKOs Mongul (he does this a lot actually).
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  • Cuts a man from the inside.
  • Summons overpower Superman
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  • Fights and matches the Silver Surfer.

Prep

Asides from making a battle strategy this is what my team does.

Phase 1: Favorable Conditions

Loki and his team will turn the spawning point into their base. Loki will first transmute the area to give it a lot more shade and tech, like he repeatedly did in Journey Into Mystery #88. As an example he turned buildings and cars into sweets in that issue.

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Cyborg Supes will also control the tech around the world and will bring it all here. Loki will also cast spells that will weakened Thor by half.

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Phase 2: Technology, Creatures and Darklings

As confirmed by ET, there is more tech in this planet than there is on planet Earth, there is also robots in this planet. Hank will take control of it all

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He does this to create a mini army (each one possessing the power that can hurt the likes of Steel) and for backup bodies in case he dies, like in here. Note, Cyborg Supes' mini army should not be considered a summon.

At the same time Jackie will create dragons (the one he used against Supes, 200 of those, in case you do not think Jackie can create them by itself you can see him creating a bigger one here) and Loki will transmute them into real dragons

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This removes their weakness to light. These will be limited to city level sadly, but they will still pack a punch.

Phase 3: The Amps

For this battle Loki will first teleport all his gear to him (Norn Stones, his various weapons, various potions etc.) like so

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With his weapons Loki will amp himself, Cyborg Superman and the Darkness. The Norn Stones alone amped the Avengers enough to face the Void

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As you can see from the scans the Avengers were handily losing before the amp but after took the upper hand in seconds, it also healed them. But this isn't all Loki will do, he will also give all of them the powers of Absorbing Man something he can do with ease

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He will also amp Cyborg Superman's technopathy and give him powerful telepathy, while amping his his own telepathy and giving Jackie Estacado world class telepathy as he did with Sandu, shown below

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And yes he was only amping Sandu, so how does he give Jackie telepathy? Simple, Jackie already has a form of telepathic communication (just a note, Sandu also gained powerful TK and other abilities shown here, his teleportation is dimensional and his TK is easily building level). Also the amp should work on Hank as well since Hank's consciousness can manipulate machines similar to telepathy (note: Sandu was also given powers he never even had a hint of).

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This should also amp Jackie's death sense 1,000x

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Of course Cyborg Supes' technopathy would be amped however I don't think I need to get into that as your team doesn't use much tech. Anyway, Loki's next amp with be doubling the powers of his allies, he has already done so with two other people (Cobra and Hyde).

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And as we have seen before Loki does not lie about how much he can amp people.

Finally Loki will amp Cyborg Superman's strength as he did with Ulik

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Which allowed him manhandle both Hercules and Thor (and if you read th text Thor was out of it for a full minute). Keep in mind at base Cyborg Supes would stomp Ulik, so when Loki amps him he will be far more powerful.

Phase 4: Right Before the Battle

Loki will then turn himself and his allies (this would include the darklings and robots) invisible and intangible, it takes someone close to Loki's magical power to even sense him

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Here he makes Thor intangible so that the Destroyer could not harm him

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Then he creates illusions of 3 other fighters, illusions which can could trick Odin himself

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#18 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Character Intros

Nate Grey aka X-Man

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Telekinesis

Nate's TK is the most versatile part of his powerset being that it can be used as a blunt instrument or surgical knife.

Telekinetically interrupting electrical impulses of a crowed to paralyze them.

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Redirects Jean Grey's TK

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Restraining & pinning Abomination to a wall.

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Nate TK shield withstands Tundra's stomp who was bigger than the surrounding mountains. Then Nate telekinetically blast Tundra off of him.

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Nate makes a dead alternate reality Forge speak by telekinetically controlling his neurons, & vocal cords.

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Fissures an alternate earth just to get a characters attention.

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Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

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Telepathy

Nate can hide his presents from other telepaths.

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PSI scans the planet.

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Nate telepathy is devolved enough to connect with virus microbes.

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By linking his mind to another he can learn months worth of information in an instant.

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Nate was even able to learn Qabiri's entire life story.

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Nate's presence on earth has been able to severely strain or take out weaker telepaths.

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Nate implanted his mind in every living creature on earth then later reformed as energy.

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Teleportation

Nate's capable of short range teleportation.

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Nate's long range teleportation allows him to travel the multiverse.

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He can even remotely teleport a character to an alternate earth.

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Precognition, Retrocognition & Psychometry

Mimic first comes into contact with Nate and starts seeing his future. Nate is far more advanced he has over 300 ways to see the future & can view multiple possible futures at a time.

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Nate coming into contact with a telepathic hive mind allowed him to see events he missed on 616 earth. Events pictured: Illuminati sending hulk to space, Civil War, Secret invasion, Dark Reign & even Osborne's plans for him.

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Psychometry is a subset of retrocognition & here is a basic explanation.

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Norrin Radd aka Silver Surfer

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Handbook Entry/Nova Corps Files

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Strength

Over powers Nova Prime

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Dominates Beta Ray Bill in hand to hand.

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Speed

Perceives microseconds & nanoseconds

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Speed blitzes Nova Prime at FTL speeds.

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Durability

Tanks his own power blasted back at him

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Withstands planet busting.

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Takes a beating from Warrior Madness Thor while trying to reason with him. While he is struck down multiple times as expected he isn't KOed

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Energy Manipulation

Quasar has a hard time depleting Norrin's energy due to the amount he has stored.

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Destroys a planet as a display of power. Here are the relevant scans.

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Creates a singularity with a discharged of energy.

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Absorbs Uni-Lord energy then releases it busting a solar system.

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Matter Manipulation

Makes Jack of Hearts feel excruciating pain.

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Atomizes an enemy.

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Transmutes Prince of Orphans into an inert solid.

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Norrin destroys a virus on the molecular level within thousands of infected corpse.

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Reconstructs Manhattan using matter manipulation.

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Cable & Norrin vaporize & repair the destruction they cause in their wake.

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Repairs earth by fusing with it stopping earthquakes & volcanoes across the globe.

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Wendell Vaughn aka Quasar

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Handbook Entry/Nova Corps Files

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Strength

Quasar constructs is where his strength lies and haven shown the capacity to make his constructs as big as earth I would consider Quasar exceptionally strong. Not saying he can move a planet but continents and islands would be well within his grasp.

Quasar created a razor big enough to slice the Soul Eater. As shown in the scans Soul Eater dwarfs planets to the point they seem like marbles. Using a construct so large should mean his strength/striking power is in the same range.

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During secret invasion Quasar was revived but limited in energy (being without the Quantum Bands) he displayed the ability to transform into a Hulk construct.

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Speed

Shielding his team with in nanoseconds while simultaneously absorbing their energy to reinforce them.

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Quasar catches the living laser absorbing him within his quantum bands before Living Laser is aware.

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Reacts to a thermonuclear explosion having just existed a portal on the moon.

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Durability

I would consider Quasar durability to be just as impressive as any other character in his tier. Quasar has produced shields capable of withstanding attacks form entire teams (avengers and x-men) & high level energy attacks. Although shields are not invulnerable they take quite a lot of physical strength and far more energy to by pass.

Shields withstand blows form Hulks (Professor and She Hulk), Hercules, hammer throws form Thor, cuts form wolverine and several other characters.

The last scan amuses me because Wolverine gives up attacking and decides to tunnel under the dome.

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With add energy Quasar shields his team from a blast they wouldn't have survived.

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Tanks the solar flare that destroys earth & the moon. Then tanks the nova which solar system busting in the least.

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Energy Manipulation

Absorbs the power cosmic to amp his blast while fight against Silver Surfer.

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Quasar shield absorbs a blast form Thanos' Avatar and Quasar creates a construct with it.

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Absorbs most of the energy Phoenix (Rachel Grey) is blasting out and by Quasar's own admission has the raw power of a star.

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Drains Ego the Living Planet a feat Silver Surfer failed to accomplish pages before.

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Absorbs a star to get the attention of Cosmic beings.

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Supplying the power to transmute stars.

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#19 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: That'll come later, I try to keep each post focused on one section of debate. Opening Strategy is next up.

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#21 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18463 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: So will I post my strategy first? Also is Nate's energy form the form he enters the battle as or no?

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#23 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I would hope so, but if you want I can go twice. Nate's energy form is passive as it's a body he creates for himself.

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I can whip up a strategy soon, although you would know my strategy and prep before you make your move, not too sure how comfortable I am with that. Noted.

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#25 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Alright I'll get in another post to make it feel fair. Although I wasn't going to counter your strategy or prep in my post. Unless it directly effects my characters such as being able to see your characters.

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#26 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Okay, I will start making my strategy as well to avoid meta-gaming.

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#27 Posted by emperorthanos- (16576 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: @mr_ingenuity: If you want you could both pm your strategy to me. And I post them at the same time to make it fair. SFW did something like that in past.

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#28 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Okay, I don't know when I will be able to post but I am starting as well.

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#31 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I'm going to break my streak and use Nate's telepathy offensively.

Opening Strategy

Nate will PSI link the team giving them instant cooperation on for any defensive or offensive strategies. Also with full knowledge on their opponents they'll know the most effective course of action from the start. Considering my team isn't in anyway slow they can adapt in nanoseconds.

Since my team has full knowledge my team will be able make a strategy to target specific weaknesses for each character. Jackie is weak to light and planet busting amounts of light has killed him (in the future). Hank's consciousness can be contained incapacitating him. Loki while not having specific weaknesses is just out right not powerful enough for a direct confrontation.

At the start of the match Nate will physically take the team to the astral plane. Being on another plane of reality entirely renders them intangible.

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Now onto the battle. My team will go on the attack, now your next thought is invisibility which I will address. But first the attack Nate will combine his telepathy with Norrin's to assault the opponents telepathically. Once Nate and Norrin overpowers their mental defences (which shouldn't be a problem) this is a variety of things they can do. Such as trap them in a continuous illusion making them think they are fighting, mind control them to attack each other, or mind wipe them making them forget they exist. I can demonstrate all these feats but I don't want fill this post with more scans than it already has.

Norrin's telepathy

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Nate's mind has an extrasensory ability to see through changes in reality. Nate has seen characters that are not from the 616 reality, has followed a ripple across the planet, and has seen through reality warping that allowed guardians disguise to themselves as humans.

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Nate in this instances didn't have his telepathy, which is why I specified his mind above.

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#32 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

Strategy:

Plan A: Let's Get This Over With/Initial Attack

Darkness

Jackie's part is simple, the second your team spawns he will crush their internal organs (brain, heart, lungs etc.) and shred them to bits. He has done so many times and can do it with a simple thought and it doesn't matter how bright you are in the outside. As shown in my opener

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He can even do this against a group of giant golems.

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Reversed

But that isn't all he will do, from inside of your body he will turn the darkness into explosions, acid and even a black hole (if allowed)

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This initial attack could very well take out your entire team, but that is for you to argue. What I do think is certain, however, is Quasar will be killed. He has no regeneration or internal durability feats (his external feats is just his personal shields), the Worldmind even says that the best way to kill him is to bypass his Quantum Bands which this attack does perfectly.

Read Containment Procudure
Read Containment Procudure

It should be noted that the version of Quasar you are using is not Pure Quantum Energy Quasar who could resist the attack. Anyway, unless you prove otherwise I will assume Quasar's journey ends here.

Anyway, even if the attack is unsuccessful it will still slow your team down and constantly damage them.

Loki

Meanwhile Loki will cast spells to affect your minds, namely chaos math and de-evolution spells. He does this so that Jackie can get more free hits against your team.

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He also uses his clairvoyance to set up for plan B, this gives him good knowledge on your team.

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Plan B: Targeted Response

Cyborg Superman

This is the time Hank will pop in, if Norrin lives Hank will blitz him. Like so

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Cyborg Supes will stay invisible (if you don't already see him) during the attack, the goal of this strike was to preoccupy Surfer, and absorb his cosmic powers (as Hank as Absorbing Man's abilities which copied Quasar), this should give Hank the ability to use Surfer's powers or at least make him immune to them.

Darkness & Loki

Meanwhile this duo will keep attacking Nate as they were before, then Jackie will use amped his death prediction and Loki's knowledge to determine the best way to beat Nate. I can think of 2 possible ways as of now, 1 magical binding and 2 complete transmutation. Loki's binding can make it so that you would be completely immobile making me win via incap. Teleportation or matter manipulation won't save you from this as Mandarin as both and was still helpless (RT for Mandarin)

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Second choice is complete transmutation, he ability he showed against skyfather Bor.

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The plan will rinse and repeat against Surfer (and Quasar if he still breaths). I will assume here that Nate goes down to either attack unless proven otherwise.

Plan D: All Out

Cyborg Superman and Darkness

This is if all else fails, if that happens my team will simply try to overpower your remaining team. Cyborg Supes and Jackie will reveal their armies and will go all out on your remaining teams, Cyborg will let Loki and Darkness absorb his power cosmic as he goes for the attack. Here are some scans of Cyborg s fighting, 2 should be enough to prove his power.

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Jackie will continue to offensively use the darkness against you.

Loki

Now Loki will create his clones which can distract Surtur

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He also uses illusions to make it seem like his clones are and the armies you are fighting are more than they are. He will then summon Gram which will force you to tell the truth of cut, Loki uses it to slice your team and force them to tell him how to beat them. He then does what they say and my team wins.

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#33 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: My opener is up, I can see you beat me by 12 minutes. Anyway, shall I counter your post first? As you did 2 in a row. Also how many posts are we going to do?

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#34 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Go ahead with your next post whenever we have a month. As for number of post two to three rebuttal post and a closer is enough. Since you opened I'll close.

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#35 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Counters:

At the start of the match Nate will physically take the team to the astral plane. Being on another plane of reality entirely renders them intangible.

Loki thinkith not! He this by simply transferring their astral forms back to their body.

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It should be noted that consciousness and spirit are generally the same thing and astral forms are the same thing as spirit forms (so astral projection is just spirit travel). And even if you don't believe me, you don't have to as Loki can manipulate astral forms as well as shown here

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No, this scan is not supposed to show Loki will sending your forms back in time, as that is both not allowed and not something he can do unamped, instead it is showing that Loki can pull the astral forms out of people (under his own power, the amp only gave him time manipulation) so he can naturally put them back. Also the comic book uses the words spirit and astral form interchangeably in this one page (as seen in Loki's words and the yellow text box below). Also if you are confused as to why I call Dr. Strange Loki, it is because he is.

But first the attack Nate will combine his telepathy with Norrin's to assault the opponents telepathically. Once Nate and Norrin overpowers their mental defences (which shouldn't be a problem)

It will because as detailed in my strategy my team will attack yours internally, including the brain. Loki will also be casting spells on your mind to lower your telepathy down a notch which will make my team's defenses more formidable.

In Conclusion

Your team will be blasted back to their physical forms before any of them could attack, this should shock them and give Jackie time to start my strategy.

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#36 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Rebuttal I

Since all of your team's strategies rely on my team being tangible there isn't really anything I would needed to counter. As my strategy renders those points irrelevant.

Loki thinkith not! He this by simply transferring their astral forms back to their body.

It should be noted that consciousness and spirit are generally the same thing and astral forms are the same thing as spirit forms. And even if you don't believe me, you don't have to as Loki can manipulate astral forms as well as shown here

No, this scan is not supposed to show Loki will sending your forms back in time, as that is both not allowed and not something he can do unamped, instead it is showing that Loki can pull the astral forms out of people (under his own power, the amp only gave him time manipulation) so he can naturally put them back. Also the comic book uses the words spirit and astral form interchangeably in this one page (as seen in Loki's words and the yellow text box below). Also if you are confused as to why I call Dr. Strange Loki, it is because he is.

This would be a sufficient counter if my team were leaving their bodies, which they are not. Here are the closest examples I can give to you so you can fully understand it.

Onslaught learned how to pull psionic energy from the astral plane & accomplish the inverse physically pull characters into the astral plane. But only after Xavier's encounter with Nate.

Here is Xavier existing on the astral plane & in the physical universe simultaneously.

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Here is Onslaught confirming Nate taught him these abilities.

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The Avengers physically (or bodily as Morgan puts it) enter the astral plane to battle Morgan Le Fay.

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What my feat above for Nate is to demonstrate that physically entering the astral plane is child's play for him quite literally. Which means for your team will Loki's magic will be able to attack them the rest of your team is ideal unable to attack. Unless your team follows to the astral plane in which your team still stands no chance.

It will because as detailed in my strategy my team will attack yours internally, including the brain. Loki will also be casting spells on your mind to lower your telepathy down a notch which will make my team's defenses more formidable.

My team bypasses your team's internal attacks by leaving the physical universe altogether. Mental attacks on the other hand require Loki to over power my team's mental defenses. Which even Xavier couldn't do nor Onslaught could do out right. Onslaught had to first weaken Nate to empowering himself enough to enters nate's mind. Loki isn't as skilled as Xavier nor as powerful as Onslaught in telepathy.

Your team will be blasted back to their physical forms before any of them could attack, this should shock them and give Jackie time to start my strategy.

Since my entire strategy is accomplished via telepathy Nate will be doing all these thing simultaneously. Which means mentally assaulting your team should happen before Loki even has time to cast any spells. That is considering Loki is casting his spell on my team reactively, so he can follow with the next part of the plan.

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#37 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Two more counters each?

EDIT: I mean One counter and one closer.

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#38 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: That should be enough, but I'm ready whenever you are since I'm closing.

I think everyone of my matches in this tourney has finished in record time.

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#39 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I edited the question. Also I have to ask, why is Cyclops' optics affecting Onslaught if he is in the astral plane?

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#40 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Nate and Onslaught can materialise psionic energy. That is what Onslaught's armor is made of Cyclops can affect the armor but not the essence of Onslaught.

Answer still stands.

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#41 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Counters 2:

This would be a sufficient counter if my team were leaving their bodies, which they are not. Here are the closest examples I can give to you so you can fully understand it.

And why does it matter? I do not see why the spell would not just cancel their astral forms, it does not have to strictly transfer it back to a body. But even if it does then Loki would not try that, instead he will simply turn you into ingots

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Or transfer your spirits into one of the Darkling dragons. He can basically force spirits to go wherever he pleases.

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What my feat above for Nate is to demonstrate that physically entering the astral plane is child's play for him quite literally

Even if he physically enters the astral plane his spirit will be forced into another physical body or just turned into ingots. Also it is worth mentioning that Loki can affect every plane of existence at the same time, at a fraction of his power (his magic is limited in astral form.

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My team bypasses your team's internal attacks by leaving the physical universe altogether.

So is this technically BFR, since part of you is gone?

Mental attacks on the other hand require Loki to over power my team's mental defenses

Not really because Loki uses magic to attack, not pure telepathy. He also is not planning to take you head on.

Since my entire strategy is accomplished via telepathy Nate will be doing all these thing simultaneously. Which means mentally assaulting your team should happen before Loki even has time to cast any spells. That is considering Loki is casting his spell on my team reactively, so he can follow with the next part of the plan.

I don't think you mentioned your speed in terms of telepathy. Loki can cast with a thought.

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And he can perceive radio waves (which are LS)

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I also believe that my team's combined psychic powers can at least buy Loki enough time to cast a spell or two.

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#43 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Rebuttal II

And why does it matter? I do not see why the spell would not just cancel their astral forms, it does not have to strictly transfer it back to a body.

Yes. The spell doesn't cancel astral forms (not even sure how that would work) it transfers them back to their body. In this case Loki's spell would be a spell of redundancy as their bodies are on the astral plane.

But even if it does then Loki would not try that, instead he will simply turn you into ingots

Or transfer your spirits into one of the Darkling dragons. He can basically force spirits to go wherever he pleases.

How would Loki know it wouldn't work as he has never encountered such an ability.

Since we are equating souls to astral forms that wouldn't work. Nate can astral form can body hopp, Norrin doesn't really have soul and Loki can't drain/absorb his soul on the astral plane.

Nate implanted his mind in every living creature on earth then later reformed as energy.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Thanos notes that users of the power cosmic have their souls replaced with it.

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The only character this could affect is Quasar but he isn't really doing anything. But I doubt Loki gets the chance since my characters are telepathically assaulting him.

Even if he physically enters the astral plane his spirit will be forced into another physical body or just turned into ingots. Also it is worth mentioning that Loki can affect every plane of existence at the same time, at a fraction of his power (his magic is limited in astral form.

Nate is an astral being he lost his body long time ago he can exist solely on the astral plane.

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The feat states every astral and metaphysical plane. The feat really shows the scope of his powers considering he lost that bout decisively. Loki would fare no better against Nate.

So is this technically BFR, since part of you is gone?

No I wouldn't say so. The astral plane exist alongside the physical plane as just a different plane of reality. In comics the mind and soul are bound to a body, a telepath can separate their mind from their body to become astral. Nate on the other hand can take is body to the astral plane simplifying the process.

Not really because Loki uses magic to attack, not pure telepathy. He also is not planning to take you head on.

Dr Strange has noted magic is a mental discipline. Which means if it attacks the mind it can be overcome mentally.

I don't think you mentioned your speed in terms of telepathy. Loki can cast with a thought.

And he can perceive radio waves (which are LS)

Loki cast one spell that is hardly his combat speed. At best he'll cast one spell as he's being mentally assaulted.

I also believe that my team's combined psychic powers can at least buy Loki enough time to cast a spell or two.

Actually having telepathy makes your team more vulnerable. Nate's powers are unrestrained hurts telepaths across the planet even KO's Psylocke. This is what Nate is capable of when not attacking. Your team shouldn't fare any better against a morales off Nate telepathically assaulting them.

Nate's presence on earth has been able to severely strain or take out weaker telepaths.

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: So I will do closing arguments and conclusions? Can I also do counters without new scans?

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#46 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

Final Counters:

How would Loki know it wouldn't work as he has never encountered such an ability.

Because he would see you in the astral plane without any bodies, he is a genius, he would know what happened.

Since we are equating souls to astral forms that wouldn't work. Nate can astral form can body hop,

I don't see how that makes him immune to soul attacks, especially when the only people he can body hop to is his own team or my team (which is very likely impossible in the case of the Darkness, and incredible difficult in Loki and Cyborg Supes' cases).

Norrin doesn't really have soul and Loki can't drain/absorb his soul on the astral plane.

No, Thanos says the Power Cosmic replaces a person's aura, he just says to call it a soul for extra clarification but auras and souls are very different (soul is basically you and aura is surrounding you). Thanos repeatedly calls it a life force or aura, only once saying soul. I am not sure what the Surfer scan is supposed to prove except that Surfer's power comes from the astral plane. Also unless there has been a retcon, I am quite certain that classic Norrin had a soul, Silver Surfer Issue #9's whole conflict has about Mephisto's desire to steal SS' soul in fact.

Nate is an astral being he lost his body long time ago he can exist solely on the astral plane.

Still can be turned into a soul ingot.

The feat states every astral and metaphysical plane

If anything you would fall under a metaphysical plane as you are a physical being in the astral plane.

The feat really shows the scope of his powers considering he lost that bout decisively. Loki would fare no better against Nate.

While it is true Loki lost, he did hold the advantage against Odin for an instant. I know I said I wouldn't post scans but this is the same scan as before but uncropped.

Highlighted the part, also Mere Physical hints that they are affecting the physical place as well.
Highlighted the part, also Mere Physical hints that they are affecting the physical place as well.

No I wouldn't say so. The astral plane exist alongside the physical plane as just a different plane of reality. In comics the mind and soul are bound to a body, a telepath can separate their mind from their body to become astral. Nate on the other hand can take is body to the astral plane simplifying the process.

It's debatable really since Nate is physically taking his body out of the physical realm where the battle is taking place, however I won't push it (if I do win, I don't want it to be via technicality).

Loki cast one spell that is hardly his combat speed.

No, he dodged Mjolnir in the classic comics more than once, he also enchanted people while someone else was about to strike them multiple times. In the current comics he dodged a blast from a Beyonder level being with ease. Loki can cast at LS pretty consistently.

At best he'll cast one spell as he's being mentally assaulted.

One spell that will buy him more time to cast another spell (perhaps Loki can simply bind your souls with his first spell which would buy him enough time to cast you into ingots or transfer you to dragons he can one shot).

Actually having telepathy makes your team more vulnerable. Nate's powers are unrestrained hurts telepaths across the planet even KO's Psylocke. This is what Nate is capable of when not attacking. Your team shouldn't fare any better against a morales off Nate telepathically assaulting them.

Loki can just sever their enchantments in that case. However you can see X holding his own for at least a while, he would be able to buy Loki some time and Darkness and Hank should be at Charles' level as Sandu was.

Final Arguments

This is not even considering the Norn Stones which again amped the Avengers from getting their butt handed to them by the Void (a being above anyone in your team) to actually getting the upper hand, in fact it looks like Thor was able to injure his entire body in one hit. Loki would be amped by this which would make his casting much more powerful, not only that but the Norn Stones healed the Avengers which it can do here if my team is compromised (I see no reason why it would not be able to heal our minds when it healed bodies before).

This is also not considering the fact that we have 5 seconds of legal BFR available, which means if Loki is overwhelmed he can simply think you away (to other separate dimensions, I do not think all members of your team has dimensional travel)and prepare spells to attack you for 5 whole seconds, which as stated is a lot of time (he can also bring you back to exactly the spot he wants you to be by casting).

Or his clones which give him even more time to cast (his clones can cast too).

Also your plan hinges in automatic realization, sure you have full knowledge but when does your team plan to go astral right away? Remember, the instant you land you will be attacked so if you can't out speed Jackie you're probably going to take a hit before you go astral.

Also if Loki needs to sacrifice his team to buy him more time then he will gladly do so, he can still use them even if you make them insane by simple hypnotism or slave spells.

Summery

  • Loki can counter your plan and defeat your team without too much difficulty with a few spells.
  • Loki will heave time to cast at least one spell even if your plan is followed as he is at least powerful enough to buy a second.
  • My team has a lot more ways to counter and beat yours.
  • Loki has many ways to buy time and beat your team.
  • You have yet to actually counter my strategy, so if yours fails mine should automatically succeed.
  • We can resist your attacks even for just a little while, meanwhile you have shown no magic/soul resistance.
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#49 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17921 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: @mr_ingenuity: My final post is up. I did not post any new scans (technically I linked one but that was not in my counters) as promised, now it is your turn then we can close. (It would be cool if you also didn't post new scans cause I wouldn't be able to counter them).

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#50 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Rebuttal III

Because he would see you in the astral plane without any bodies, he is a genius, he would know what happened.

I assume you meant Loki wouldn't see their bodies while they are on the astral plane. As you are stating it it would seem Loki would opt for soul transfer which I've already stated wouldn't work.

I don't see how that makes him immune to soul attacks, especially when the only people he can body hop to is his own team or my team (which is very likely impossible in the case of the Darkness, and incredible difficult in Loki and Cyborg Supes' cases).

You stated Loki could seal him in a another body and I showed Nate can body hop. Which makes that point irrelevant as it doesn't stop Nate from telepathically assaulting your team.

No, Thanos says the Power Cosmic replaces a person's aura, he just says to call it a soul for extra clarification but auras and souls are very different (soul is basically you and aura is surrounding you). Thanos repeatedly calls it a life force or aura, only once saying soul.

Thanos is equating all of those terms into one. Then states it replaces our auras, which conveys being powered by the power cosmic don't technically have souls.

I am not sure what the Surfer scan is supposed to prove except that Surfer's power comes from the astral plane.

Going by the statement Thanos gave the power cosmic is his soul and trying to steal his soul in the very place that empowers him would be an implausible task. Same as how the creature attempted leach Norrin dry on the astral plane and failed. I'm just following your example since you've equated astral forms with souls. Since Norrin has out right no sold a creature trying to eat his astal from while on the astral plane then then Loki should have very little chance of stealing it.

Also unless there has been a retcon, I am quite certain that classic Norrin had a soul, Silver Surfer Issue #9's whole conflict has about Mephisto's desire to steal SS' soul in fact.

The statement by seems to be the retcon.

Still can be turned into a soul ingot.

You're still going with that aren't you. Well for one this particular spell isn't being cast with the speed necessary to incapacitate any of my team. The next point to bring up is Loki isn't doing this on someone who is actively fighting him. Nate and Surfer telepathically would require their full concentration. The last point to bring up here is Loki did this to one character at arms length. So it comes down to can Loki do this at the start of the fight, doubt it and which character on my team would he choose.

There is so many questions on how your team would go about anything I doubt any of it should work.

While it is true Loki lost, he did hold the advantage against Odin for an instant. I know I said I wouldn't post scans but this is the same scan as before but uncropped.

Correction "appears as if", considering Loki was one shotted there was no advantage for Loki to be had.

It's debatable really since Nate is physically taking his body out of the physical realm where the battle is taking place, however I won't push it (if I do win, I don't want it to be via technicality).

Nate at the time existed solely on the astral plane or as the scan above states the mindscape of humanity. He isn't really taking his body anywhere as he doesn't need it. What he is doing is bringing his team to where he is. Hank doesn't have a physical body either and if he turned his team into disembodied consciousness I would have no problem with it.

No, he dodged Mjolnir in the classic comics more than once, he also enchanted people while someone else was about to strike them multiple times. In the current comics he dodged a blast from a Beyonder level being with ease. Loki can cast at LS pretty consistently.

None of this proves Loki is even close to light speed. You have one scan that he can mentally manipulate light leave it at that and not try to trump up feats that aren't there. Mjolnir speed is inconsistent at best it's hypersonic on average.

If you're referring to "They Who Sit Above in Shadow" they aren't even Galactus level. What we do know is that Odin obeys them and they are empowers by the stories of gods. Loki didn't dodge the blast he tanked it and there is nothing to suggest the blast is light speed.

Loki can just sever their enchantments in that case.

You need more consistency on how your team operates. You can't argue that their enhancements will them temporary defence, then just throw it out next post.

However you can see X holding his own for at least a while, he would be able to buy Loki some time and Darkness and Hank should be at Charles' level as Sandu was.

Xavier is in excruciating pain from just Nate's presence, I stress this because Nate is not attacking Xavier or anyone for that matter. If you consider your team Xavier level (which isn't the case) then they should get one shotted in by a telepathic assault. In X-Man #10 - Confrontation Nate dominate Xavier when he was at his weakest constantly burning out. In The Uncanny X-Men #335 - [untitled] Nate reaches into the X-Men's mind with ease that borders on frightening. Among the X-Men was Jean Grey who's easily on par if not above Xavier.

There isn't really a case to be made that your team resist Nate's telepathy.

Closing

My strategy is rather simple Nate and Norrin telepathically defeat your team. Considering they are doing this from the astral plane renders all physical attacks irrelevant. The only character that could that has shown to actually combat this strategy is doing so via reaction. By the time Loki sees my team on the astral plane to to figure out a spell to combat them he will already be assaulted by telepathy.

Loki doesn't really have to feats to state he operates at light speed outside of one instance. Which is the only instance given to quantify Loki's speed of thought spell casting. In truth Loki is pretty much street level in speed along with his brother Thor.

The consistency in the debate for the opposing team is pretty much non existent. So even if we conclude Loki could do anything before succumbing to telepathic assault there is no certainty what he will do.

Most of the actual strategy wasn't even mentioned mentioned until the final post, which makes debating the events of the battle difficult to state the least. If I were to address "Final Arguments" it would spark a completely separate debate as none of this was discussed in the debate. This really shouldn't be acceptable as a style of debate since a consensus would never be reached.