Avatar image for emperorthanos
#1 Edited by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio

High tier Pick a team tourney: Round 3

@heirtothekingdom

  • Thor
  • Graviton
  • Monica Rambeu
  • Mental attack immunity
  • Perfect Teamwork.
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Versus

@justicethorpsylocke

  • Iron Man
  • Dr Strange
  • Proxima Midnight
  • 1 day prep
  • Full Knowledge
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than city level.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for supremegeneration
#2 Posted by SupremeGeneration (6027 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait I also have Strange...

Dagnabbit time to go change again... AND YOU TOOK IRON MAN TOO

Avatar image for major_hellstorm
#3 Posted by Major_Hellstorm (9083 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for supremegeneration
#4 Posted by SupremeGeneration (6027 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#5 Edited by HeirToTheKingdom (9093 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I'll start this off. I'm going to be using my opener from the last round. Not only because I sometimes don't feel like doing so, but because it's simply just listing off what my character is capable of, not to mention my opponent didn't post last round, so it didn't really get to be used to it's full effect. That being said, here it is.

Spectrum (Monica Rambeau)

No Caption Provided

Monica Rambeau, the Avenger become Ultimate who has undergone plenty of name changes in her history. From Pulsar to Captain Marvel or from Photon to Spectrum. She has always been one of the fastest characters the Marvel universe ever displayed and most certainly one of the most versatile too. Monica not only brings her power to battle but her sheer tactical knowledge which has often brought her through troublesome battles and allowed her to accomplish things many would think impossible.

Powers

Monica possesses one of the most versatile power-sets the marvel universe has to offer thanks to her being bombarded with extra-dimensional energy. This energy would go on to allow her to change her form into anything in the electromagnetic spectrum. Just so an idea of what forms she can alter her body to become, here is a good amount of them which she focuses on.

  • Photons
  • Electricity
  • Microwaves
  • Radiowaves
  • Gamma rays
  • X-Rays
  • Ultraviolet radiation
  • Infrared radiation
  • And more

Spectrum offers the versatility to my team. She is so versatile, it's quite difficult to combat her, not to mention her speed is on a very high level. Thanks to her versatility, my team is going to be capable of attacking you in many different ways with many different attacks. Monica can attack your team with -

  • Microwave blasts (Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #5)
  • Gamma-Rays (Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #6)
  • Ultra Violet lights (Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #6)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

This is only the tip of the iceberg as well.

Graviton (Franklin Hall)

No Caption Provided

One of the Avengers most fearsome villains to one of their most recurring. Franklin has always been one of the most powerful members the Avengers and heroes of earth have come across due to his vast intelligence and his ability to manipulate one of the four fundamental forces of the universe, gravity. Given he was a physicist before gaining these abilities, he has a great understanding on how to use them, which makes him that much more dangerous.

Powers

  • Gravikinesis AKA gravity manipulation (increase or decrease gravity of himself or objects exponentially)
  • Highly-concussive blasts
  • Flight/levitation
  • Sense the gravimetric field
  • Force-fields
  • Generate gravitational fields
  • Give people the power of flight with gravity and can take it away
  • Teleportation
  • And more

Graviton is the most powerful on my team because as I said, he controls one of the fundamental forces of the universe, gravity. He's capable of using it to almost any effect which makes him not only versatile and powerful, but also grants him great offence as well as defence. Graviton in his very first appearance (Avengers Vol.1 #158), was able to lift an entire city out from the ground into the sky with nothing but a gesture of his hand.

Not only that, but he completely humiliates the Avengers afterwards while testing out his powers with incredible ease. This is impressive because the team had Wonder Man, a character who is often regarded as second only to Thor himself in strength among the Avengers (during those times).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Thor Odinson

No Caption Provided

Thor Odinson is the son of the Skyfather Odin and the mother Goddess Gaea. Given his heritage, he has always been one of the most powerful beings on the face of the marvel earth, which has often made him a deciding factor in affairs that other heroes couldn't accomplish on their own. He is one of the most respected heroes not only due to his overwhelming power, but because he's brave and will do anything for the safety of the planet earth. Thor has the usual brick power-set of strength and durability, but he is so much more because he can control the weather as fly which ultimately separates him from the rest.

Powers

  • Superhuman strength
  • Superhuman speed
  • Superhuman stamina
  • Invulnerability
  • Weather manipulation
  • Earth manipulation
  • Flight
  • Energy Projection/absorption/manipulation
  • Tracking
  • Opening portals
  • And more

Thor offers raw power to my side thanks to his weather manipulation and Mjolnir. He's going to be crucial in overcoming Iron Man's suits or Doctor Strange's power (thanks to Mjolnir) who I would say is the most powerful on your team. His lightning bolts have tremendous amounts of power which will be a big factor in defeating your team.

To bring forth the type of lightning Thor can muster, here is one of his most impressive feats to date. Here Odin literally seals off an entire dimension from the nine realms (used to be ten prior to this). Keep in mind Odin is a Skyfather. Original Sin #5.1

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Thor then proceed so break this seal with a powerful cosmic storm. This lightning is more than capable of one-shotting anyone it hits in this battle, so if it's avoided that's your demise.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

A lightning bolt capable of overcoming a seal Odin put up is nothing short of impressive and shows just why Thor is one of the most powerful beings on his earth. This is the type of power your team will have to deal with, which I don't see anyone taking much of.

This should be enough to kick start this debate, you're up @justicethorpsylocke.

Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#6 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom: Solid opener. By the way Piccolo isn't a member of my team haha. I'll get a post up sometime this weekend.

Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#7 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9093 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#8 Edited by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom

Doctor Strange

No Caption Provided

Powers/Abilities

  • Astral projection
  • Manipulation of energy and magical forces
  • Mystical entity summoning/incantation
  • Dimensional travel/manipulation
  • Mystical force fields/automatic shielding
  • Teleportation
  • Flight
  • Black magic
  • Clairvoyance
  • Illusions/telepathy

Iron Man

No Caption Provided
  • 100 tonner
  • Hyper sonic flight/reaction speeds
  • Suits are durable enough to resist nukes
  • Energy projection/absorbtion
  • Force fields
  • Technopathic interface
  • Nanobots/assimilation

Proxima Midnight

No Caption Provided
  • Excellent speed and agility
  • High fighting skill
  • Wields a spear that turns into a bolt of light that holds down it's target with the weight of a star

Prep

Tony and Strange combined their force fields.

Tony uses his nanobots to share his armor with everyone on the team, giving them shared communication and increased reflexes.

The Fight

Okay, so essentially my team has proven methods to eliminate pretty much everyone on your team.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Unfortunately, Proxima Midnight has already one-shotted Monica with utter ease.

Yes, in this scan, Monica was distracted, but even if she chooses to engage Proxima in this fight, there are shields in the way.

Additionally, this scan states that the spear turns into "three tracers of black light". This means that one can target each of your team.

Before you can contest this through an argument about durability...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This same attack was able to easily restrain the Hulk and revert him to Banner, who is pretty much stronger and more durable than Thor honestly.

As for Graviton. He is definitely the biggest threat to my team, however:

No Caption Provided

In a much weaker armor than the one he currently has, Tony was able to nearly kill Graviton with a beam that was hotter than the sun. Admittedly Graviton wasn't at his best here, but the composite armor Tony has here is much much stronger than just the Extremis armor.

I feel as though I should address the Thor feat you're boasting.

It's not quite dimensional level like you're making it seem for two reasons:

  1. He only was able to do it because Loki showed him the weak spot. That's sort of like how Karnak was able to break the gate to hell and how Mantis could knock out Thor.
  2. We don't exactly know if the gate Odin placed there had a large quantifiable strength so to speak. It might not have been that strong at all.We just know it hid one of the Ten Realms.

Either way, Strange has the feats to shield from an attack like this.

No Caption Provided

Here he shields from Satannish and Mephisto fighting, which was tearing apart the dimension they were fighting in and causing chaos on Earth.

Even if we were to highball the Thor feat, it's still not enough to break through shielding that can do this.

Conclusion

  • Thor can't break Strange's shielding
  • Proxima can one-shot your team minus possibly Graviton, who Tony can take out anyway
  • Your team simply doesn't have what it takes to face mine.
Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#9 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9093 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2:

No Caption Provided

Counters Towards Preparation:

Tony and Strange combined their force fields.

When you say combined their force-fields, do you mean fuse them together or just overlap the two, because I'm not sure the former is something they have done. Either way, it's not a big deal and won't mean much given in my opinion the difference in power between Tony and Strange is so vast that Tony's force-field won't add much to it given my team.

Tony uses his nanobots to share his armor with everyone on the team, giving them shared communication and increased reflexes.

Can I get some scans of this if you don't mind. I'm just wondering how this is going to work, is this like him giving them their own suit or is he giving them pieces of his own? Wouldn't this hinder the performance of his amour himself? Either way, it's not that important but it's something I wanted to know.

Counters To The Fight:

Unfortunately, Proxima Midnight has already one-shotted Monica with utter ease.

Yes, in this scan, Monica was distracted, but even if she chooses to engage Proxima in this fight, there are shields in the way.

Given the property of the spear, I don't think it's actually surprising it was able to one-shot Monica, but then, as you said she was caught off-guard. I don't think this is a fair scan to use to say Proxima can defeat Monica at all. I mean, I guess it shows she can take her down if one of the tracers hit her, but that's pretty much it. I'm pretty sure had she seen the spear coming her way, it wouldn't have struck her given she can become light, which pretty much means she's light speed herself. Mighty Avengers Vol 2. #1

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I'm going to say with confidence that those tracers won't be touching Monica if she doesn't want them to because she could very well avoid them with her speed. Being that her and the spear are light-speed (on average), it would mean that Proxima would literally have to be standing very close to Monica for her to be hit, which I doubt will be the case. When Monica reaches her upper limits shes faster than light and has accomplished feats like traveling nearly a billion miles in a second, that's faster than light by a lot. Avengers Unplugged #5

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

It should be noted that Monica for the most part can fight at any range effectively, so once she see's what Proxima is packing after the first attempt, I'm pretty sure she'll keep her distance. I also think Proxima can't have her spear chase Monica out too far for fear of having to go to far to retrieve it given I don't recall it having the same "return to the owner's hand" like Mjolnir does. This could actually be a way Proxima loses, she could lose her spear given Monica enough time to defeat her, which given she's light-speed, all the time in the world.

I don't think Proxima is much of a fight given Monica could just take her out from the beginning of the fight before she even chooses to use her spear. Monica has always been someone who doesn't dilly dally in her fights, she gets the job done and this has been something that has gotten increasingly better over the years as well. She likes to fly at her opponents at high speeds and take them out given she knows she's faster than almost all opponents she usually goes up against. By the way, I'm not sure shielding is the best route you want to go given Monica gets through everyone's shielding whenever she wants to, she's constantly getting through characters force-fields and she has a particular way she could take Proxima out.

In Avengers Unplugged #5 she was able to constrict Genis-Vells own force-field (by manipulating it's energies) against himself to where he lost enough oxygen to lose consciousness, this is a strategy she could use on any force-field your team has.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Additionally, this scan states that the spear turns into "three tracers of black light". This means that one can target each of your team.

Actually, Monica can essentially do the same thing with herself, she can split herself into many smaller versions which can act on their own. Three tracers isn't going to be nearly enough to cover all of them, so spiting into smaller photons can take the heat off my other team given if Proxima doesn't chose to get after them instead, she risks having one of them hit her. Either way she'll get hit because she can't account for all of them, so it's a lose lose situation for her. Black Panther Vol. 4 #38

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This same attack was able to easily restrain the Hulk and revert him to Banner, who is pretty much stronger and more durable than Thor honestly.

Hulk isn't close to as fast as Monica, not to mention he can't fly so he's also not as mobile as she is. Not only that, he's a one-dimensional fighter meaning against attacks like that, he doesn't really have an answer to it other than try and avoid it (he's not that fast) or try to tank it. Given Monica is going to deal with Proxima as she already knows who she is given they have fought already (another reason the spear won't work twice), she'll know what she's capable of and take her out from the beginning. I've shown why Proxima isn't really going to be a factor to my team given Monica can easily deal with her if she wants. Another thing I want to point out that makes her spears useless is something Graviton can do, bend light. Given the property of the tracers are light, he should be easily capable of just controlling them and sending them right back at Proxima Midnight for the KO or death.

No Caption Provided

In a much weaker armor than the one he currently has, Tony was able to nearly kill Graviton with a beam that was hotter than the sun. Admittedly Graviton wasn't at his best here, but the composite armor Tony has here is much much stronger than just the Extremis armor.

I seen this coming, but then again, who wouldn't use this instance when going up again Graviton using Iron Man. For starters, let's just make it clear that difference in power between Iron Man's amour there and his current one is no where near the difference between Franklin prior to going to the Raft and post Raft. He was so weakened from being hooked up to power dampeners and was sick so he wasn't near his full power. Iron Man has never been a fight against Franklin when he's fighting anywhere near his best, heck Tony has gotten beaten alongside fellow Avengers by him as shown in my opener.

Franklin's force-fields are way out of Tony's league to get by, given he's already tanked Tony's blast at their best. Before you say his amour has gotten far better from the classic days, Franklin tanked Tony's blast which was being amped up by hooking himself up to the electrical grid of the entire Southwest U.S and was still unable to take him down. It did harm him a bit and knock him down but Franklin was drugged to make him weakened. West Coast Avengers #4

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Even Thor's unrestrained blows and full power storms couldn't make a dent on his storms just to show how powerful his force-fields are. Keep in mind that this was in his first appearances and he only gained better control over his powers after all of this. Avengers Vol.1 #159

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

It's not quite dimensional level like you're making it seem for two reasons:

Never specified which level I thought it was at, I'm not one for titles anyways. Though, for Thor to overpower a seal put down by arguably the most powerful Skyfather is something we can't ignore. It's much better than what most characters of his level could say for themselves.

He only was able to do it because Loki showed him the weak spot. That's sort of like how Karnak was able to break the gate to hell and how Mantis could knock out Thor.

That's not what happened, Loki was merely finding the fabric of space from where Heven was overlapping into the space of the 616 universe. Had he not done that, Thor wouldn't know where the metaphysical door was to actually launch his attack at, he would just be aiming randomly. Loki simply aimed the bomb in the right direction to say it simply. All the power was from Thor and had nothing to do with weak spots. Thor coupled with Mjolnir is simply just that powerful.

We don't exactly know if the gate Odin placed there had a large quantifiable strength so to speak. It might not have been that strong at all.We just know it hid one of the Ten Realms.

Given the fact that Angela was a baby and Thor wasn't even born yet, that gives us a couple of thousand years and no one had stumbled upon it until now. You can say that maybe no one attempted, but at the same time I'm going to assume that the Angels of Heven have probably tried on their end and they have some impressive technology, not to mention it's Odin, he's not one to usually put weak seals on things. Look at Mjolnir for example, he put seals on the hammer that magical users like Loki, Enchantress, Karnilla or even Doctor Strange himself couldn't get pass.

Either way, Strange has the feats to shield from an attack like this. Here he shields from Satannish and Mephisto fighting, which was tearing apart the dimension they were fighting in and causing chaos on Earth.

Strange wasn't getting hit by the attack head on though, he was for the most part blocking the debris and such flying his way. I think it's a reach to say he was taking a blast that can tear apart dimensions when all of the energy is being focused on Satannish and Mephisto. They were tearing apart the dimension, but it didn't happen yet, nor would Strange be alive if it did. He's not shielding himself from blasts from those two powerful demons if they're fighting at full power, which they were given those two hate each other and have a rivalry over who is the real Satan. I'm going to need something more concrete to say that my team cannot get through his force-field. She has gotten through the force-field of Magneto after it was shown physical attacks couldn't get through it. She just changed her frequency to match that of the force-field and she can bypass it. I'm pretty sure Strange would be pretty helpless given she's massively faster than him. X-Men VS Avengers #2

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Thor has consistently been able to get by shields of powerful characters. Though Stephen is powerful, I don't think his force-fields are impossible for Thor to get though. It may take more than one attack, but it shouldn't matter if he could eventually get through. The Odinson has actually gotten through spells from Doctor Strange, like when used the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak to bind the entirety of the Avengers and Thor called down a lightning bolt to destroy it. I'm aware that this Strange wasn't actually at full power as he wasn't Sorcerer Supreme yet, but it should be noted he was still pretty powerful. Coincidentally, he became Sorcerer Supreme again near the end of this issue. New Avengers Vol.2 #34

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Thor should have enough power to get through the shielding of Strange given the feats he's pulled of like during Silver Surfer #4 he was able to destroy a force-field placed over Mjolnir by striking it with his fist a single time. Silver Surfer Vol.1 #4

No Caption Provided

Even if we were to highball the Thor feat, it's still not enough to break through shielding that can do this.

You don't need to highball it, we could just take the feat how it is. Thor destroyed a seal Odin had placed. I think you're seeing as if Odin put all his power into putting that seal, which I'm pretty sure he didn't. I think it's still relatively powerful seal given it kept an entire realm out though, so it's still incredibly impressive.

My Team Wins:

  • Monica has every advantage over Proxima Midnight to the point I can't even see a way she could lose outside of being distracted. Given that's how she lost to her the last time, I'm going to say it's logical she'll be on-guard this time. Monica is aware of what Proxima is capable of so it shouldn't come as a surprise. She's more versatile, more faster, more powerful and simply better. Proxima cannot tag Monica and would get blitzed by the speed difference not to mention Monica splitting her body man into many smaller hers would mean her tracers would have many more targets to follow. Not that they can catch Monica who can move faster than light.
  • Iron Man doesn't stand much of a chance against Graviton given Franklin has defeated him and the Avengers several times. Tony overpowering a very sick and weakened Franklin doesn't amount to much when Franklin has many ways to take Tony down. As I've shown in my opener, Tony doesn't have an answer to having his gravity manipulated sending him all over the place, Franklin could even just crush his body (literally) and be done with Tony. He's done so to his opponents in less than a second, he's that fast with his powers.
  • As for Stephen, he's the most dangerous on your entire team, however, I don't think he's capable of beating all of my team at once. Thor alone is capable of keeping him on the defensive in his force-field, while Monica could slip into his force-field and attack him to lose concentration and drop it and then Franklin could crush him under weight until he loses consciousness.

Concluding:

Doctor Strange is more or less the only person on your team that is truly dangerous. Proxima is dangerous only if my team doesn't pay attention to her, and Tony is just not dangerous at all to my team. Everyone on my side is more powerful than him and wouldn't have any trouble taking him down if they were fighting him with the intent to easily take him down. That being said, I think my team would come out victorious here given we have way more advantages and my team just seems to flow better together. You're up @justicethorpsylocke

Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#10 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom:

When you say combined their force-fields, do you mean fuse them together or just overlap the two, because I'm not sure the former is something they have done. Either way, it's not a big deal and won't mean much given in my opinion the difference in power between Tony and Strange is so vast that Tony's force-field won't add much to it given my team.

I apologize, I should have elaborated. I meant one over the other.

You are right that it doesn't make much of a difference. I knew this and it caused me to be absent-minded enough to make a typo.

Can I get some scans of this if you don't mind. I'm just wondering how this is going to work, is this like him giving them their own suit or is he giving them pieces of his own? Wouldn't this hinder the performance of his amour himself? Either way, it's not that important but it's something I wanted to know.

Yeah I probably should have explained this one too. He has Hulkbusters in this composite armor so he has enough of it to share with two other people. And the nanobots can suit up other people, as seen here.

No Caption Provided

Counters

Given the property of the spear, I don't think it's actually surprising it was able to one-shot Monica, but then, as you said she was caught off-guard. I don't think this is a fair scan to use to say Proxima can defeat Monica at all. I mean, I guess it shows she can take her down if one of the tracers hit her, but that's pretty much it. I'm pretty sure had she seen the spear coming her way, it wouldn't have struck her given she can become light, which pretty much means she's light speed herself. Mighty Avengers Vol 2. #1

I'm going to say with confidence that those tracers won't be touching Monica if she doesn't want them to because she could very well avoid them with her speed. Being that her and the spear are light-speed (on average), it would mean that Proxima would literally have to be standing very close to Monica for her to be hit, which I doubt will be the case. When Monica reaches her upper limits shes faster than light and has accomplished feats like traveling nearly a billion miles in a second, that's faster than light by a lot. Avengers Unplugged #5

I'm going to argue that she was going light speed in those scans. I'll post it again for clarity.

No Caption Provided

In the scan you posted, she stated that she was going lightspeed. In this above scan she has the exact same look, where her upper body is distinguishable to the reader and her lower body is a streak of light.

So from this I can discern that she is moving at the same speed (light speed or higher) when Proxima tagged her with the spear. So I don't see how she wouldn't be tagged here. It's clear to see that the intention of the writer and artist was to show that the spear moves faster than her. This is especially evident by the caption "these cannot be avoided" in the panel where she is tagged. Additionally, she has to be emulating light because Promixa acknowledges that she is "light pretending to be human when she sees her fly through Thanos' soldiers. Clearly, the portrayal is that Proxima's spear can blitz Monica.

It should be noted that Monica for the most part can fight at any range effectively, so once she see's what Proxima is packing after the first attempt, I'm pretty sure she'll keep her distance. I also think Proxima can't have her spear chase Monica out too far for fear of having to go to far to retrieve it given I don't recall it having the same "return to the owner's hand" like Mjolnir does. This could actually be a way Proxima loses, she could lose her spear given Monica enough time to defeat her, which given she's light-speed, all the time in the world.

Well, I've shown above that the spear should still be able to blitz Monica, but this statement you've made in false in another way.

Proxima can indeed call her spear back.

No Caption Provided

As here (later in the same issue) she calls it back out of Monica's body.

Another noteworthy thing about this scan is Proxima explaining that the spear carries with it a poison. So even if a member of your team were to resist the spear somehow, one strike would be fatal. (I know you have not stated this, but I thought this would further help explained how the spear could kill any member of your team.

I don't think Proxima is much of a fight given Monica could just take her out from the beginning of the fight before she even chooses to use her spear. Monica has always been someone who doesn't dilly dally in her fights, she gets the job done and this has been something that has gotten increasingly better over the years as well. She likes to fly at her opponents at high speeds and take them out given she knows she's faster than almost all opponents she usually goes up against. By the way, I'm not sure shielding is the best route you want to go given Monica gets through everyone's shielding whenever she wants to, she's constantly getting through characters force-fields and she has a particular way she could take Proxima out.

In Avengers Unplugged #5 she was able to constrict Genis-Vells own force-field (by manipulating it's energies) against himself to where he lost enough oxygen to lose consciousness, this is a strategy she could use on any force-field your team has.

So there is a problem with this line of reasoning. Strange's shields are of course magical in nature, so all the things that Monica can do to a normal force-field cannot be done to Steven's fields as they are not made out of traditional energy. They are mystical and to my knowledge Monica can not transmute or manipulate mystical energy (this logic is ubiquitous in Marvel with energy manipulators). Therefore Monica cannot suffocate anyone with the field.

Actually, Monica can essentially do the same thing with herself, she can split herself into many smaller versions which can act on their own. Three tracers isn't going to be nearly enough to cover all of them, so spiting into smaller photons can take the heat off my other team given if Proxima doesn't chose to get after them instead, she risks having one of them hit her. Either way she'll get hit because she can't account for all of them, so it's a lose lose situation for her. Black Panther Vol. 4 #38

Let's just say she did do this. I've proven that the spear can tag Monica and so it will of course be able to tag her duplicates. The consequences of Monica's clones being killed could be severe, as it could reduce the power of the real Monica, and honestly since one-shot with the spear poisons and kills the target and since Proxima can call it back, she can continue killing clones until the cows come home.

Hulk isn't close to as fast as Monica, not to mention he can't fly so he's also not as mobile as she is. Not only that, he's a one-dimensional fighter meaning against attacks like that, he doesn't really have an answer to it other than try and avoid it (he's not that fast) or try to tank it. Given Monica is going to deal with Proxima as she already knows who she is given they have fought already (another reason the spear won't work twice), she'll know what she's capable of and take her out from the beginning. I've shown why Proxima isn't really going to be a factor to my team given Monica can easily deal with her if she wants. Another thing I want to point out that makes her spears useless is something Graviton can do, bend light. Given the property of the tracers are light, he should be easily capable of just controlling them and sending them right back at Proxima Midnight for the KO or death.

If you want to prove that Monica can take out Proxima, you have to prove that she can get through Strange's shielding, and to do that you have to prove that she can interact with mystical energy.

As for the Graviton point, I saw this one coming. However, though Graviton may be able to manipulate the spear, it has been shown to move FTL and therefore he needs to react to it to keep it from blitzing him.

Are there any FTL reactionary feats that you can provide for Graviton?

I seen this coming, but then again, who wouldn't use this instance when going up again Graviton using Iron Man. For starters, let's just make it clear that difference in power between Iron Man's amour there and his current one is no where near the difference between Franklin prior to going to the Raft and post Raft. He was so weakened from being hooked up to power dampeners and was sick so he wasn't near his full power. Iron Man has never been a fight against Franklin when he's fighting anywhere near his best, heck Tony has gotten beaten alongside fellow Avengers by him as shown in my opener.

Franklin's force-fields are way out of Tony's league to get by, given he's already tanked Tony's blast at their best. Before you say his amour has gotten far better from the classic days, Franklin tanked Tony's blast which was being amped up by hooking himself up to the electrical grid of the entire Southwest U.S and was still unable to take him down. It did harm him a bit and knock him down but Franklin was drugged to make him weakened. West Coast Avengers #4

You would have a good point here, however, the increase in power Tony has had, especially in this fight where he has composite armor, is too great.

The entire Southwest you say?

No Caption Provided

Here a single blast from his Mark 42 Hulkbuster is enough to power an entire continent, and no boosts were needed.

You've shown me that a single blast from a Southwest powered Tony could get through Graviton's shields and put him down (at least temporarily) so then what would repeated continent level blasts from this Tony do? They would completely destroy him.

You will try to argue that current Graviton is stronger than classic Graviton, however, the entire US is many times greater than just the Southwest. So if we use that factor of, say, 4 (comparing the Southwest to the entire US) that's a much greater power increase that Tony has had than Graviton. So suffice to say, Tony in this battle will be able to overwhelm Franklin.

That's not what happened, Loki was merely finding the fabric of space from where Heven was overlapping into the space of the 616 universe. Had he not done that, Thor wouldn't know where the metaphysical door was to actually launch his attack at, he would just be aiming randomly. Loki simply aimed the bomb in the right direction to say it simply. All the power was from Thor and had nothing to do with weak spots. Thor coupled with Mjolnir is simply just that powerful.

I read the scan again just to make sure, and there is indeed an implication of a weak point. I'll post it here again for clarity.

No Caption Provided

"It's a matter of applying enough force at just the right point to shatter the lock"

They had already found the area where the dimension overlaps, and Loki literally had to reveal the one place the size of his finger that Thor had to hit in order to break the seal.

So again, Thor was only able to break due to hitting a weak spot, which has allows characters with base human strength such as Karnak to break very powerful seals as well. This is therefore not a great enough show of power to say that Thor could bring down Strange's shields.

Strange wasn't getting hit by the attack head on though, he was for the most part blocking the debris and such flying his way. I think it's a reach to say he was taking a blast that can tear apart dimensions when all of the energy is being focused on Satannish and Mephisto. They were tearing apart the dimension, but it didn't happen yet, nor would Strange be alive if it did. He's not shielding himself from blasts from those two powerful demons if they're fighting at full power, which they were given those two hate each other and have a rivalry over who is the real Satan. I'm going to need something more concrete to say that my team cannot get through his force-field. She has gotten through the force-field of Magneto after it was shown physical attacks couldn't get through it. She just changed her frequency to match that of the force-field and she can bypass it. I'm pretty sure Strange would be pretty helpless given she's massively faster than him. X-Men VS Avengers #2

But the energy flying by Strange was indeed shattering the dimension. It's clear to see in the background and the energy from the fight spills over into Earth.

Though I do have a couple more feats:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He shields against Shuma-Gorath in it's own dimension and in the next scan against Galactus, so it's not as if he hasn't otherwise been able to defend against beings of Mephisto's caliber

As for Monica being able to get through the shield, like i said you're going to have to prove that Monica can interact with mystical energy. Otherwise, she's not doing much here.

However, there's another way my team can take out Monica that gets rid of much of the nonsense involving her fighting Proxima.

No Caption Provided

Tony could simply absorb Monica into his suit, like he does in this scan.

Counters to "My Team Wins"

  • Monica has every advantage over Proxima Midnight to the point I can't even see a way she could lose outside of being distracted. Given that's how she lost to her the last time, I'm going to say it's logical she'll be on-guard this time. Monica is aware of what Proxima is capable of so it shouldn't come as a surprise. She's more versatile, more faster, more powerful and simply better. Proxima cannot tag Monica and would get blitzed by the speed difference not to mention Monica splitting her body man into many smaller hers would mean her tracers would have many more targets to follow. Not that they can catch Monica who can move faster than light.

As I've proven, Proxima's spear moves faster than light and has tagged Monica while she was moving at least light speed, so Proxima can blitz her again with it.

  • Iron Man doesn't stand much of a chance against Graviton given Franklin has defeated him and the Avengers several times. Tony overpowering a very sick and weakened Franklin doesn't amount to much when Franklin has many ways to take Tony down. As I've shown in my opener, Tony doesn't have an answer to having his gravity manipulated sending him all over the place, Franklin could even just crush his body (literally) and be done with Tony. He's done so to his opponents in less than a second, he's that fast with his powers.

As I've shown before, Tony was able to take Graviton on before when he was charged up. I've shown that he's MUCH stronger than that now and Graviton has not made a power increase nearly as severe.

As for him crushing Tony, I wouldn't be so sure.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Tony was here able to resist the gravity of a black hole and escape it with his flight.

He has even more power than this in his suit for this fight.

  • As for Stephen, he's the most dangerous on your entire team, however, I don't think he's capable of beating all of my team at once. Thor alone is capable of keeping him on the defensive in his force-field, while Monica could slip into his force-field and attack him to lose concentration and drop it and then Franklin could crush him under weight until he loses consciousness.

Unfortunately, Monica cannot get through Strange's shields as you have yet to show her affecting mystical energy.

Conclusion/Why I Win

  1. Spectrum can either be blitzed by Proxima Midnight's spear or absorbed by Tony's armor.
  2. Graviton can either be blitzed by Promixa Midnight's spear or overpowered by Tony.
  3. Thor can be blitzed by Proxima Midnight's spear.
  4. All of the above can happen due to Strange's shielding being above the paygrade of your team and Tony's armor being able to resist Graviton, seeing as how it's resisted a black hole (which is even stronger than he is IIRC)

Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#11 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos
#12 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos
#13 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#14 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos
#15 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos
#16 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke: Well I don't know if he is coming back online soon though I doubt Heir left.You guys have done a decent amount of debating already so I could just open it up to votes right now

Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#17 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for jardinain2
#20 Posted by jardinain2 (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: As fun as it might be to vote, since Hier has already left, whats the point? unless this is the finals or something, Justice will still go through, no?

Avatar image for major_hellstorm
#21 Posted by Major_Hellstorm (9083 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for jardinain2
#22 Posted by jardinain2 (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: He hasn't posted in almost two weeks with anything consistent. He only popped on once a week ago, hes probably just busy.

Avatar image for emperorthanos
#23 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: I guess JTP would go through either way. But voting advice is helpful. Or I give Mr_I the tourney win if Heir win

Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#24 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: I guess JTP would go through either way. But voting advice is helpful. Or I give Mr_I the tourney win if Heir win

I'm fine with that. Mr_I wins if Heir gets more votes here.

Avatar image for emperorthanos
#25 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:

@jardinain2: I guess JTP would go through either way. But voting advice is helpful. Or I give Mr_I the tourney win if Heir win

I'm fine with that. Mr_I wins if Heir gets more votes here.

Yeah that works best.

Avatar image for jloneblackheart
#26 Posted by jloneblackheart (8413 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate to vote on an unfinished CaV but I will give my vote to @justicethorpsylocke mostly because the argument was more developed. Both were doing great, it's a shame it didn't go the distance.

Online
Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#27 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#28 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: I agree about the debate btw. I was really enjoying it and it was looking to go down as possibly the greatest and most evenly matched debate I've ever participated in. It's a shame we couldn't finish it.

Avatar image for emperorthanos
#30 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio

JTP: 1

HTTK: 0

Avatar image for revan2424
#31 Posted by Revan2424 (4553 posts) - - Show Bio

I can vote when I get back home.

Avatar image for mr_ingenuity
#32 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (13455 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure me voting would be a conflict of interest.

Avatar image for boschepg
#33 Posted by boschePG (4660 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke: for the win

quite frankly, heir just dropped

  • in detailed terms for the winner, I thought JTP was able to armor his entire team
  • I thought the Thor-Strange force field thing was pretty close though
  • the Maxima beating Monica already is a hard piece of evidence. I thought Heir should have went a different route as opposed as this time would be different. JTP went into more detail which clinched that battle
  • The Iron Man battle vs Graviton kept escalating, and Im sure the power grid gave Tony the idea to keep boosting the power level. I think JTPs continent level explanation was more hyperbole than actual fact as actual damage put being done
  • the fact that Maxima took out their speedster in 616 makes you wonder why Maxima didn't take out the others in 616 but it would be safe to infer she could speed blitz harpoon the team if wanted based on scans provided.
  • on an off note - some of the scans didn't open very big. JTP was the better debater IMO, winning more of the battle opponents, but just letting you know some of your scans didn't open too well
Avatar image for boschepg
#34 Posted by boschePG (4660 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: could you PM the link with the signup post of this battle. Ive been working on my scans but Im typically a mid to street type person. Wanted to dip into the high tier a little and wanted to see what characters/parameters of this battle

Avatar image for justicethorpsylocke
#35 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (2635 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos
#36 Posted by EmperorThanos (11072 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke: i leave votes open for a couple more days. But from the looks of it you have won. So I will make the finals soon.

Avatar image for the_blind_bandit
#37 Posted by The_Blind_Bandit (156 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: JTP gets my vote too

I think Bosche summarized it up pretty nicely. But he did debate better with better counters and evidence

Also you can add me to the tag list as well.