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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16568 posts) - - Show Bio

High tier Pick a team tourney: Round 2

@highaccuser

  • Joa
  • Obsidian
  • New 52 Martian Manhunter
  • Morals Off
  • Full Knowledge
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Versus

@mr_ingenuity

  • Nate Grey
  • Quasar
  • Silver Surfer
  • Full Knowledge
  • Morals Off

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Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than city level.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

Purposely done bad Thanos.

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#3 Posted by emperorthanos- (16568 posts) - - Show Bio

Purposely done bad Thanos.

Yeah I messed up the matches a little, For some reason i forgot about you and had JTP twice.

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#4 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser

Character Intros

Nate Grey aka X-Man

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Telekinesis

Nate's TK is the most versatile part of his powerset being that it can be used as a blunt instrument or surgical knife.

Telekinetically interrupting electrical impulses of a crowed to paralyze them.

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Redirects Jean Grey's TK

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Restraining & pinning Abomination to a wall.

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Nate TK shield withstands Tundra's stomp who was bigger than the surrounding mountains. Then Nate telekinetically blast Tundra off of him.

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Nate makes a dead alternate reality Forge speak by telekinetically controlling his neurons, & vocal cords.

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Fissures an alternate earth just to get a characters attention.

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Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

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Telepathy

Nate can hide his presents from other telepaths.

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PSI scans the planet.

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Nate telepathy is devolved enough to connect with virus microbes.

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By linking his mind to another he can learn months worth of information in an instant.

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Nate was even able to learn Qabiri's entire life story.

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Nate's presence on earth has been able to severely strain or take out weaker telepaths.

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Nate implanted his mind in every living creature on earth then later reformed as energy.

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Teleportation

Nate's capable of short range teleportation.

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Nate's long range teleportation allows him to travel the multiverse.

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He can even remotely teleport a character to an alternate earth.

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Precognition, Retrocognition & Psychometry

Mimic first comes into contact with Nate and starts seeing his future. Nate is far more advanced he has over 300 ways to see the future & can view multiple possible futures at a time.

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Nate coming into contact with a telepathic hive mind allowed him to see events he missed on 616 earth. Events pictured: Illuminati sending hulk to space, Civil War, Secret invasion, Dark Reign & even Osborne's plans for him.

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Psychometry is a subset of retrocognition & here is a basic explanation.

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Norrin Radd aka Silver Surfer

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Handbook Entry/Nova Corps Files

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Strength

Over powers Nova Prime

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Dominates Beta Ray Bill in hand to hand.

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Speed

Perceives microseconds & nanoseconds

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Speed blitzes Nova Prime at FTL speeds.

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Durability

Tanks his own power blasted back at him

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Withstands planet busting.

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Takes a beating from Warrior Madness Thor while trying to reason with him. While he is struck down multiple times as expected he isn't KOed

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Energy Manipulation

Quasar has a hard time depleting Norrin's energy due to the amount he has stored.

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Destroys a planet as a display of power. Here are the relevant scans.

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Creates a singularity with a discharged of energy.

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Absorbs Uni-Lord energy then releases it busting a solar system.

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Matter Manipulation

Makes Jack of Hearts feel excruciating pain.

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Atomizes an enemy.

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Transmutes Prince of Orphans into an inert solid.

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Norrin destroys a virus on the molecular level within thousands of infected corpse.

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Reconstructs Manhattan using matter manipulation.

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Cable & Norrin vaporize & repair the destruction they cause in their wake.

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Repairs earth by fusing with it stopping earthquakes & volcanoes across the globe.

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Wendell Vaughn aka Quasar

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Handbook Entry/Nova Corps Files

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Strength

Quasar constructs is where his strength lies and haven shown the capacity to make his constructs as big as earth I would consider Quasar exceptionally strong. Not saying he can move a planet but continents and islands would be well within his grasp.

Quasar created a razor big enough to slice the Soul Eater. As shown in the scans Soul Eater dwarfs planets to the point they seem like marbles. Using a construct so large should mean his strength/striking power is in the same range.

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During secret invasion Quasar was revived but limited in energy (being without the Quantum Bands) he displayed the ability to transform into a Hulk construct.

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Speed

Shielding his team with in nanoseconds while simultaneously absorbing their energy to reinforce them.

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Quasar catches the living laser absorbing him within his quantum bands before Living Laser is aware.

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Reacts to a thermonuclear explosion having just existed a portal on the moon.

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Durability

I would consider Quasar durability to be just as impressive as any other character in his tier. Quasar has produced shields capable of withstanding attacks form entire teams (avengers and x-men) & high level energy attacks. Although shields are not invulnerable they take quite a lot of physical strength and far more energy to by pass.

Shields withstand blows form Hulks (Professor and She Hulk), Hercules, hammer throws form Thor, cuts form wolverine and several other characters.

The last scan amuses me because Wolverine gives up attacking and decides to tunnel under the dome.

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With add energy Quasar shields his team from a blast they wouldn't have survived.

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Tanks the solar flare that destroys earth & the moon. Then tanks the nova which solar system busting in the least.

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Energy Manipulation

Absorbs the power cosmic to amp his blast while fight against Silver Surfer.

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Quasar shield absorbs a blast form Thanos' Avatar and Quasar creates a construct with it.

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Absorbs most of the energy Phoenix (Rachel Grey) is blasting out and by Quasar's own admission has the raw power of a star.

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Drains Ego the Living Planet a feat Silver Surfer failed to accomplish pages before.

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Absorbs a star to get the attention of Cosmic beings.

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Supplying the power to transmute stars.

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#6 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

This is one of the matches I was afraid of...but I'll see what I can do.

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#7 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Obsidian

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Todd Rice a.k.a. Obsidian is Alan Scott's son Pre-New 52 and inheritor of power from the Starheart. He's essentially an intangible being made of shadows allowing him to reform from all physical damage and can go as far as quasi-omnipresence. Offensively he can increase the size of his body and use his shadow form for BFR, possession and so forth.

Martian Manhunter

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Martian Manhunter doesn't require much explanation. Post Flashpoint his powerset has remained the same, telepathy, invisibility, intangibility, shape-shifting and ambiguously high tier stats.

Joa

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Joa is a character from Toriko. He is the male version of the chef god Frohze who inhabited her body after her death. With this body Joa is the greatest chef in the verse and one of its most overpowered characters. His main power is massive amounts of Food Luck which is reality warping energies left by the creators of the universe that constantly warp luck in favor of its user. Offensively he has energy attacks and can seal opponents.

Opening Argument:

My team's main advantage is reaction speed via Joa who is by far the fastest character present. Starjun using his tracking abilities combined with layers of time manipulating Back Channels had vastly superluminal reaction speed. This was only enough to make him slightly faster than Joa and he still failed to beat him.

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With this speed Joa would be able to activate Food Luck at the very start of the battle. Food Luck is defensive reality warping that Joa uses to make all attacks on him fail. Given the nature of it I don't believe even telepathy will be successful through it.

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Once Food Luck is activated your team will be unable to attack mine. Food Luck on Joa's level has only ever been beaten when Midora copied it, a luxury your team doesn't have, or overextending the time limit on his powers, which took much longer than any single battle would. From there my team can begin taking apart yours offensively.

With prior knowledge my team will be aware of Nate's intangibility and respond accordingly. Joa will incapacitate him by cooking and sealing him as he did to Midora.

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The exact workings of this sealing are unclear but it appears impossible to escape by raw power output as Midora couldn't escape without copying Joa's Food Luck. While Nate could possibly teleport out Joa should be able to warp his sense of time enough that he wouldn't be able to process a thought in time to teleport till after the battle was over effectively earning him a win by incap.

Joa placed the container he sealed Midora in in a warp kitchen (a space where time flows so the rest of the world is nearly stopped). Presumably what he did to Midora was the opposite and make time flow fast so it took longer in real time for him to find a way to escape given it took him many chapters to get out and Midora is vastly faster than Nate.

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Furthermore Joa could simply nullify telepathy and teleportation with Food Luck. He nullified Starjun's clairvoyance in this manner when he was low on Food Luck and trying to conserve it.

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With Nate gone it won't be hard to beat your team offensively. His absence takes away your biggest protection against telepathy from Martian Manhunter. New 52 Martian Manhunter has good enough telepathy to trap the entire Justice League in an illusion in Martian Manhunter #2. Most of the members lack notable resistance, but Wonder Woman in particular was able to resist Brainiac's telepathy which was controlling Earth's population (Brainiac's telepathy actually extends a good bit beyond planetary).

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Wonder Woman's telepathy resistance from this is on par with the feats Silver Surfer and Quasar have of resisting telepathy, and in the case of those two they also have instances of being susceptible to telepathy which makes it hard to say they would be able to resist. At the very least fending off telepathy would tax and impede them.

Joa would also provide offensive support with Satan Hole and Satan Bomb. Note the planet he's using these attack on is much larger than Earth with a circumference of 220,00 kilometers and these attacks can still be seen in comparison to it (Satan Hole in particular seems even larger than it).

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Obsidian would continue to put offensive pressure by turning into shadow and possessing your team like he did to the JSA which notably included Dr. Fate and Hourman One Million. While your team could disperse him with sufficient energy output that would require more concentration than they'll have while fending off attacks from Joa and Martian Manhunter.

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#8 Edited by HigherPower (12392 posts) - - Show Bio

OH SH*T

TAG

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#9 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I'm going away for 3 weeks on Friday and won't be able to post during that time so I won't be able to post till after that unless we somehow both post before Friday.

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#10 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Opening Strategy

Nate will PSI link the team giving them a telepathic cloak & instant cooperation on for any defensive or offensive strategies. Also with full knowledge on their opponents they'll know the most effective course of action from the start. Considering my team isn't anyway slow they can adapt in nanoseconds.

Quasar will start by absorbing every available energy (food luck, psionic, the nearby star) source then blasting it out as light and heat. He should be able to bathe the planet in heat and light igniting the atmosphere. Simultaneously Nate will come to his aid by possessing his body acting defensively on his behalf. Nate's goal is to make sure Quasar can accomplish this uninterrupted. Which is to say he can keep quasar alive if anything gets passed his shield.

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Norrin will shrink down to the sub atomic scale making him nigh impossible to attacking. I assume none have the ability to attack anything smaller than atoms. Keep in mind Norrin retains his powerset so he can attack his opponents very atoms.

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Norrin reignites a sun in the microverse with takes manipulation of matter and energy.

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Being linked up with Nate means he can find his opponents even when he can't see them. Given that Norrin travel speed is FTL then he will have no problem reaching his target which will be Jao. Norrin will be able to enter his body and wreak havoc on his atoms. Joa may be able to cause atomic attacks to miss but how about at sub atomic attack.

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Left unchecked Norrin will kill every opponent while they try and combat Quasar & Nate.

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#11 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Is there another post for rebuttal or can I post?

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#12 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Nope I usually try to meet in the middle with posting order. It seems kind of underhanded to give my strategy then immediately try and tear yours apart.

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#13 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Nope I usually try to meet in the middle with posting order. It seems kind of underhanded to give my strategy then immediately try and tear yours apart.

Okay.

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#14 Edited by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Rebuttal

Nate will PSI link the team giving them a telepathic cloak & instant cooperation on for any defensive or offensive strategies. Also with full knowledge on their opponents they'll know the most effective course of action from the start. Considering my team isn't anyway slow they can adapt in nanoseconds.

Nate can't operate in nanoseconds. Best he can do is change his own flow of time but that was disrupted by something as simple as Ares running up to him. He'll be left behind if they try strategizing at those speeds.

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Quasar will start by absorbing every available energy (food luck, psionic, the nearby star) source then blasting it out as light and heat. He should be able to bathe the planet in heat and light igniting the atmosphere. Simultaneously Nate will come to his aid by possessing his body acting defensively on his behalf. Nate's goal is to make sure Quasar can accomplish this uninterrupted. Which is to say he can keep quasar alive if anything gets passed his shield.

Food Luck doesn't manifest as physical energy. It's something inherit to a person unless copied so I don't see how Quasar would be able to drain it unless he's been shown to absorb reality warping or similar energy. Unless I see more evidence for Quasar's speed I don't see how they're supposed to do this before Joa initiates his attack, especially when even nanosecond speed doesn't match up to Starjun's perceptions. And while Quasar can take energy from the star it seems to take all his concentration so he wouldn't be able to drain power from my team at the same time.

Also I'm not quite sure how this plan would help your team. Nate will have to assume control of all Quasar's functions and do the energy manipulating for him. Simultaneously defending from my team while doing so would be difficult multitasking. Also putting two team members in the same body allows Joa to seal both of them at once.

Norrin will shrink down to the sub atomic scale making him nigh impossible to attacking. I assume none have the ability to attack anything smaller than atoms. Keep in mind Norrin retains his powerset so he can attack his opponents very atoms.

Any evidence he can attack the physical world while this size? Atoms were the size of planets relative to him in that particular instance so it would take him an immensely long to do serious damage at this size. Obsidian is made of shadow anyway and not composed of atoms.

Being linked up with Nate means he can find his opponents even when he can't see them. Given that Norrin travel speed is FTL then he will have no problem reaching his target which will be Jao. Norrin will be able to enter his body and wreak havoc on his atoms. Joa may be able to cause atomic attacks to miss but how about at sub atomic attack.

I see no reason for subatomic attacks to be successful when Food Luck doesn't require specifically identifying the attack and rather seems to give the user blanket immunity to standard attacks. Also Joa has Life Orbs which take his place and blocks attacks he doesn't see coming.

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You still have no counter for Joa simply nullifying your team's abilities or J'onn's telepathy. Additionally Obsidian can grow to sizes where he covers the entire planet so Norrin won't have the power output to do anything to him while shrunk.

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#15 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: We might be able to finish this before friday.

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#16 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by TheKinfing (11784 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes.

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#18 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Rebuttal

Nate can't operate in nanoseconds. Best he can do is change his own flow of time but that was disrupted by something as simple as Ares running up to him. He'll be left behind if they try strategizing at those speeds.

Time manipulation isn't allowed here, but you're forgetting the speed of thought is faster in marvel when disembodied. Nate can download info instantly to gain skills. Nate allowed Spider Man to relieve his life through his most vivid memories. With that Nate has precog that would see enough seconds into the future that he can defuse the speed gap by making the adjustments far in advance.

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Keep in mind Nate doesn't even have to posses a character to make them intangible. Phases himself and Threnody through glass. (lower right panel)

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Food Luck doesn't manifest as physical energy. It's something inherit to a person unless copied so I don't see how Quasar would be able to drain it unless he's been shown to absorb reality warping or similar energy. Unless I see more evidence for Quasar's speed I don't see how they're supposed to do this before Joa initiates his attack, especially when even nanosecond speed doesn't match up to Starjun's perceptions. And while Quasar can take energy from the star it seems to take all his concentration so he wouldn't be able to drain power from my team at the same time.

Well I remember you stating that Acaia could eat food luck, plus the fact that it's energy puts it inside Quasar's wheelhouse. Reality Warping is an application of a power/energy source. The Phoenix can reality warp but does so via psionic energy & quasar had no problem draining that. Now if you where to state it's magic I would promptly conceded. But just because it's from a different universe doesn't take away from Quasars feats.

Jao isn't attacking Quasar he's going for Nate so he won't even know they're doing this. Nate can exist in multiple minds at once.

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To be honest he can replicate that feat without absorbing any energy Quasar starts out with that much energy shown in this feat. Yes I showed the feat but that was quasar in his classic days before power creep took over. But on that same front Quasar has already shown he can absorb multiple energy sources at once. This includes being such as Gladiator who has no real energy to drain.

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Shielding his team within nanoseconds while simultaneously absorbing their energy to reinforce them.

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Also I'm not quite sure how this plan would help your team. Nate will have to assume control of all Quasar's functions and do the energy manipulating for him. Simultaneously defending from my team while doing so would be difficult multitasking. Also putting two team members in the same body allows Joa to seal both of them at once.

Nate doesn't need to take over Quasar as he did Osborn as they are working in conjunction. Osborn was trying to wrestle control of his body back while pushing Nate out of his mind. Which is next level PIS mind you. Osborn has no mental resistance train of any sort and is performing this feat off will power.

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Joa will only be after Nate's energy form which doesn't even matter to him. Then again if it did matter he could just teleport or recreate it. Nate fakes his own death to through off the Dark Avengers.

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While we're on the topic how does this sealing work point by point? Because if it requires time manipulation then it won't go exactly as planned.

Any evidence he can attack the physical world while this size? Atoms were the size of planets relative to him in that particular instance so it would take him an immensely long to do serious damage at this size. Obsidian is made of shadow anyway and not composed of atoms.

Norrin would never use this tactic in character & he has only used shrinking to enter the microverse as he did in that scan. So if he were in the microverse no Norrin would be too small to attack atoms. But he's only smaller than a atom still large enough to attack atoms.

Also all Norrin would need to do is cause fission by manipulating the atomic nuclei. In fission heavy ever elements are used to insure a Nuclear chain-reaction but Norrin is FTL he will fly though every atomic nuclei setting them off.

I see no reason for subatomic attacks to be successful when Food Luck doesn't require specifically identifying the attack and rather seems to give the user blanket immunity to standard attacks. Also Joa has Life Orbs which take his place and blocks attacks he doesn't see coming.

Blanket immunity doesn't work in debates you know that. From what I understand the attacks miss due to luck but an attack on the sub atomic scale couldn't miss considering there is nowhere else for it to go. Sure a giant attack that resulted in the destruction of atoms would miss but a smaller one doesn't seem likely.

In your scan Jao dies 8 times over to one attack in a millisecond. That would give Norrin over one thousand microseconds to attack. Which means Jao would only be surviving for a mere second in the grand scheme of things.

You still have no counter for Joa simply nullifying your team's abilities or J'onn's telepathy. Additionally Obsidian can grow to sizes where he covers the entire planet so Norrin won't have the power output to do anything to him while shrunk.

Nullify what attack exactly? Norrin is really the only member of my team really attacking. Quasar is bathing the planet in your team's weakness Obsidian, & J'onn.

Tell me do you really want a a telepathic debate? J'onn isn't over powering Nate via telepathy and sealing him doesn't do anything. But most off all J'onn won't be in the right state of mind with fire all around him.

For the record multitasking isn't something Nate can't do. It's the simple fact that his body couldn't handle it that keep him from trying but that is no longer a limitation.

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Covering the planet in darkness is inconsequential but it would be hard to accomplish in light of Quasar's strategy. Todd should be too weakened to even fight back.

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#19 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Time manipulation isn't allowed here, but you're forgetting the speed of thought is faster in marvel when disembodied. Nate can download info instantly to gain skills. Nate allowed Spider Man to relieve his life through his most vivid memories. With that Nate has precog that would see enough seconds into the future that he can defuse the speed gap by making the adjustments far in advance.

The speed of thought is inconsistent in fiction because it can't actually be measured, but just because Nate is a telepath doesn't mean he can perform complex actions at the speed of thought with his natural perception speeds.

As for seeing into the future Starjun's perceptions worked based on Clairvoyance in the scans I posted above (reposted for convenience) and were much faster than seeing only a few seconds into the future. Joa was able to detect it and counter it and was in general fast enough to match it. So seeing a few seconds into the future won't help especially when it doesn't mean he'll be able to do anything about it given the speed gap.

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Keep in mind Nate doesn't even have to posses a character to make them intangible. Phases himself and Threnody through glass. (lower right panel)

My team doesn't need to use physical attacks so intangibility won't work.

Well I remember you stating that Acaia could eat food luck, plus the fact that it's energy puts it inside Quasar's wheelhouse.

Acacia eats everything, including emotion. Consuming concepts that don't even exist as form seems above Quasar for this comparison because he doesn't just consume energy. Also he only ate Gourmet Luck when Midora used it against him offensively and not when he was focusing it on himself defensively.

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Reality Warping is an application of a power/energy source. The Phoenix can reality warp but does so via psionic energy & quasar had no problem draining that. Now if you where to state it's magic I would promptly conceded. But just because it's from a different universe doesn't take away from Quasars feats.

It's definitely not magic, but what Phoenix does is reality warping via other powers instead of powers that warp reality by nature. Unless Quasar has directly absorbed warps on reality and not just their power sources I'm not convinced he'd be able to.

Jao isn't attacking Quasar he's going for Nate so he won't even know they're doing this. Nate can exist in multiple minds at once.

Nate wasn't doing this consciously, that was just the result of him emerging from the Astral Plane gradually. He'd need to do it willingly and under his own power while also maintaining coherent control of each mind. I'm not convinced he'd be able to operate properly in each individual mind given everyone who Nate was inhabiting there was doing the exact same thing.

To be honest he can replicate that feat without absorbing any energy Quasar starts out with that much energy shown in this feat. Yes I showed the feat but that was quasar in his classic days before power creep took over. But on that same front Quasar has already shown he can absorb multiple energy sources at once. This includes being such as Gladiator who has no real energy to drain.

If Quasar tries using that level of power without drawing energy elsewhere it's going to tax him as shown in your own scans. Also I wouldn't say Quasar was necessarily given a power creep like the rest of Marvel when his best feats seem to come from his solo series which was long ago.

Quasar never identified Gladiator specifically as someone he drew energy from. He said "everyone" but I assume that just meant most of them. He obviously didn't drain energy from Namora for one as she has nothing that would contribute to a feat like that.

Nate doesn't need to take over Quasar as he did Osborn as they are working in conjunction. Osborn was trying to wrestle control of his body back while pushing Nate out of his mind. Which is next level PIS mind you. Osborn has no mental resistance train of any sort and is performing this feat off will power.

I'm aware he had to grapple with Norman for control there but that doesn't mean he can work in conjunction with Quasar normally.

Joa will only be after Nate's energy form which doesn't even matter to him. Then again if it did matter he could just teleport or recreate it. Nate fakes his own death to through off the Dark Avengers.

If Nate's main conscious is in his energy form while it's sealed he'll be trapped the same. Just a piece of his mind in Quasar won't be enough to escape especially when he's thinking at a much slower rate than the rest of the universe.

While we're on the topic how does this sealing work point by point? Because if it requires time manipulation then it won't go exactly as planned.

The sealing works by trapping the opponent in Golden Cookware. The Blue Nitro planned to use the same kind to seal Neo, permanently trapping and removing it from the dimension. It appears to bend space as well to fit the target inside.

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It doesn't require time manipulation, the Warp Kitchen/Back Channel was just a way to make it so Midora couldn't escape as Joa didn't account for Midora copying Gourmet Luck. What the time manipulation will do is prevent Nate from escaping before the battle ends.

The time manipulation from Back Channels is powerful enough that Nate or Quasar won't be able to process a thought to escape it for an incredibly long time. For a display of how powerful it is Frohze puts the two babies in one and they remain in the fetal state for 500 years.

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Norrin would never use this tactic in character & he has only used shrinking to enter the microverse as he did in that scan. So if he were in the microverse no Norrin would be too small to attack atoms. But he's only smaller than a atom still large enough to attack atoms.

If Norrin's never used this tactic in character even in instances when he's been morals off or mind controlled then I question if he would and it seems he hasn't shown the control to do anything other than shrink enough to enter the microverse which isn't the same as precisely controlling his size. Also the empty space inside atoms would be absolutely massive at that size so it would still take a long time to do serious damage.

Also all Norrin would need to do is cause fission by manipulating the atomic nuclei. In fission heavy ever elements are used to insure a Nuclear chain-reaction but Norrin is FTL he will fly though every atomic nuclei setting them off.

Would Norrin really be capable of setting off an atom by just flying through it? Also attacking with that much precision would make it so it is indeed very possible to miss his charges via Food Luck.

Blanket immunity doesn't work in debates you know that. From what I understand the attacks miss due to luck but an attack on the sub atomic scale couldn't miss considering there is nowhere else for it to go. Sure a giant attack that resulted in the destruction of atoms would miss but a smaller one doesn't seem likely.

At that size an attack could easily go through the empty space within atoms. 99.9999999999996% of an atom is empty space (Hydrogen is just the example there, it would be similar for all atoms), meaning at the size of an atom it would in fact take precision to actually hit the nucleus.

In your scan Jao dies 8 times over to one attack in a millisecond. That would give Norrin over one thousand microseconds to attack. Which means Jao would only be surviving for a mere second in the grand scheme of things.

Only because the attacks were hitting him when he wasn't expecting it and at speeds he couldn't compete with when he didn't have Food Luck activated. With full knowledge and no concerns about using Food Luck in short term he would have it activated at the start of the battle.

Additionally Obsidian can observe and inhabit things things down to their most basic particles. He would be capable of fighting Norrin at any size and conveying information of Norrin's location to Joa via J'onn. With Norrin's location known Joa can easily outpace him.

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Nullify what attack exactly? Norrin is really the only member of my team really attacking. Quasar is bathing the planet in your team's weakness Obsidian, & J'onn.

Nullify their powers, telepathy, matter manipulation etc. He does to fine to Starjun's precog.

Tell me do you really want a a telepathic debate? J'onn isn't over powering Nate via telepathy and sealing him doesn't do anything. But most off all J'onn won't be in the right state of mind with fire all around him.

J'onn doesn't need to beat Nate, just attack your team while Nate is sealed. If necessary he will be able to defend from Nate or apply pressure.

Quasar seems to mainly fire standard energy attacks and it wouldn't be fire even if it's powered by the sun, but either way he won't have enough time to gather sufficient power with Joa and Obsidian attacking.

For the record multitasking isn't something Nate can't do. It's the simple fact that his body couldn't handle it that keep him from trying but that is no longer a limitation.

He wasn't exactly multitasking there. He was attacking Sinister multiple ways but that's still just attack which is easier than doing a number of different things with different functions. Defending telepathically, phasing Quasar, absorbing energy from the star splitting up his conscious and escaping Golden Cookware is quite a bit more.

Covering the planet in darkness is inconsequential but it would be hard to accomplish in light of Quasar's strategy. Todd should be too weakened to even fight back.

Why would it weaken Todd? Heat isn't a problem, especially not if it's just from the sun. He tanks and regenerates from Shazam's lightning and even regular lightning is several times hotter than the sun on top of being much more focused than Quasar's blanket assault.

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Also even inside a force field Quasar won't be able to defend against Obsidian when he's just shadow so he can still attack Quasar specifically.

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#20 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Rebuttal II

The speed of thought is inconsistent in fiction because it can't actually be measured, but just because Nate is a telepath doesn't mean he can perform complex actions at the speed of thought with his natural perception speeds.

Nate is operating telepathically and I've shown his perception telepathically. What have I stated that requires Nate to move in the physical world.

Nate's telepathy can scan the entire planet. So telepathically he isn't slow. But I'm not claiming he needs to be light speed either since he can just do everything in advance.

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Quasar leaving himself vulnerable while pouring out intense light and heat Nate will now and protect him.

As for seeing into the future Starjun's perceptions worked based on Clairvoyance in the scans I posted above (reposted for convenience) and were much faster than seeing only a few seconds into the future. Joa was able to detect it and counter it and was in general fast enough to match it. So seeing a few seconds into the future won't help especially when it doesn't mean he'll be able to do anything about it given the speed gap.

Nate isn't attacking Jao, Nate's whole deal is to run defensive measure for his team. Nate doesn't need to offset the speed gap against Jao either. Jao only attack against Nate is sealing his energy form, a non issue for Nate.

My team doesn't need to use physical attacks so intangibility won't work.

What attacks would your team use?

Acacia eats everything, including emotion. Consuming concepts that don't even exist as form seems above Quasar for this comparison because he doesn't just consume energy. Also he only ate Gourmet Luck when Midora used it against him offensively and not when he was focusing it on himself defensively.

Well in your scans it says Acacia favorite flavor of food is despair. He's not eating emotions themselves he just has highly developed senses such as Wolverine smelling hope.

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That doesn't change anything for Quasar's energy draining. Again he absorbed his teammates energy on a nanosecond notice, he's drawn out Jack of Hearts life force & drained Adam Warlock to the point he couldn't control the the soul gem. You could dismiss one of these example but not all of them.

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It's definitely not magic, but what Phoenix does is reality warping via other powers instead of powers that warp reality by nature. Unless Quasar has directly absorbed warps on reality and not just their power sources I'm not convinced he'd be able to.

You only seems to think absorbing food luck is off the table due to it's obscure nature from a different verse. Not much can change in the way of debate. If you want me to show quasar draining a reality warper specifically I won't but I have shown characters capable of reality warping that quasar has drained. Such as Thanos' avatar when he had the infinity gauntlet.

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Nate wasn't doing this consciously, that was just the result of him emerging from the Astral Plane gradually. He'd need to do it willingly and under his own power while also maintaining coherent control of each mind. I'm not convinced he'd be able to operate properly in each individual mind given everyone who Nate was inhabiting there was doing the exact same thing.

You're taking the scans too literal, it was only to show Nate can exist in multiple minds at once. Which you didn't dispute with that you acknowledged Nate was weakened in that instance so why even attempt to counter it. Besides Nate isn't taking control over Quasar nor would Quasar attempt to kick him out, not a hard concept.

If Quasar tries using that level of power without drawing energy elsewhere it's going to tax him as shown in your own scans. Also I wouldn't say Quasar was necessarily given a power creep like the rest of Marvel when his best feats seem to come from his solo series which was long ago.

I don't deny that but seeing as he starts with that level of energy means any additional energy allows him to sustain such a feat. By taking both feats into account I can conclude that Quasar has no trouble producing enough light to encompass the planet.

Quasar never identified Gladiator specifically as someone he drew energy from. He said "everyone" but I assume that just meant most of them. He obviously didn't drain energy from Namora for one as she has nothing that would contribute to a feat like that.

I'm not going to debate semantics. And for the most part this isn't relevant to my point.

I'm aware he had to grapple with Norman for control there but that doesn't mean he can work in conjunction with Quasar normally.

Really? That isn't a solid defence so you're assuming my team won't work together. But you took no time to deny my team won't telepathically link which by extension means Nate is already in Quasar's mind, taking up residence is a non issue at that point.

If Nate's main conscious is in his energy form while it's sealed he'll be trapped the same. Just a piece of his mind in Quasar won't be enough to escape especially when he's thinking at a much slower rate than the rest of the universe.

Nate's mind exists on the astral plane for the most part it takes him a conscious effort to maintain his energy form.

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Nate's telepathy transcends dimensions. Nate broke the dimensional barrier that contained the Great Beasts Pre-Shaman. Shaman Nate linked minds across the multiverse.

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The sealing works by trapping the opponent in Golden Cookware. The Blue Nitro planned to use the same kind to seal Neo, permanently trapping and removing it from the dimension. It appears to bend space as well to fit the target inside.

It doesn't require time manipulation, the Warp Kitchen/Back Channel was just a way to make it so Midora couldn't escape as Joa didn't account for Midora copying Gourmet Luck. What the time manipulation will do is prevent Nate from escaping before the battle ends.

The time manipulation from Back Channels is powerful enough that Nate or Quasar won't be able to process a thought to escape it for an incredibly long time. For a display of how powerful it is Frohze puts the two babies in one and they remain in the fetal state for 500 years.

Well considering it's just a pocket dimension it won't contain Nate's telepathy. You're forgetting the rules 3. no time manipulation. If I were allowed to play that game Nate would stop time out right for your team.

If Norrin's never used this tactic in character even in instances when he's been morals off or mind controlled then I question if he would and it seems he hasn't shown the control to do anything other than shrink enough to enter the microverse which isn't the same as precisely controlling his size. Also the empty space inside atoms would be absolutely massive at that size so it would still take a long time to do serious damage.

Morals off Norrin doesn't even exist in comics. How is it not the same when he could choice to stop at any moment? His whole intention every time he shrinks is to enter microverse. Applying that power in a deadly way is enough to say he can do it.

Empty space is massive because most of the particles are held up in the atomic nuclei. That is what Norrin is attacking so I see no reason his blast shouldn't encompass the entire nuclei.

"Almost all of the mass in an atom is made up from the protons and neutrons in the nucleus with a very small contribution from the orbiting electrons. Neutrons have no charge and protons are positively charged."

Would Norrin really be capable of setting off an atom by just flying through it? Also attacking with that much precision would make it so it is indeed very possible to miss his charges via Food Luck.

Not flying through it more like blasting or manipulating the nuclei. The fact that he can travel at FTL speeds means he can hit multiple at once.

At that size an attack could easily go through the empty space within atoms. 99.9999999999996% of an atom is empty space (Hydrogen is just the example there, it would be similar for all atoms), meaning at the size of an atom it would in fact take precision to actually hit the nucleus.

Norrin is sub atomic which means his size would be comparable to the size of the particles inside the nuclei. With that his attack are AOE so precision isn't necessary.

Only because the attacks were hitting him when he wasn't expecting it and at speeds he couldn't compete with when he didn't have Food Luck activated. With full knowledge and no concerns about using Food Luck in short term he would have it activated at the start of the battle.

Jao reliance on food luck may run out as Quasar should have no problem absorbing it. There is also the fact that food luck hasn't shown to work on the sub atomic.

Additionally Obsidian can observe and inhabit things things down to their most basic particles. He would be capable of fighting Norrin at any size and conveying information of Norrin's location to Joa via J'onn. With Norrin's location known Joa can easily outpace him.

Obsidian won't be occupying his teammates to check for subatomic attacks. With that Quasar is bathing him in light on a planetary scale has shown to be his weakness.

Nullify their powers, telepathy, matter manipulation etc. He does to fine to Starjun's precog.

Food luck can't nullify telepathy, just stop right there. I'm not pressing the issue of telepathy but I'm not giving you any leeway where there is none.

J'onn doesn't need to beat Nate, just attack your team while Nate is sealed. If necessary he will be able to defend from Nate or apply pressure.

Nate won't be seal in any meaningful way. My team is telepathically linked with Nate, Nate's tp isn't inhibited by distance,on top of that Nate is offering every one a telepathic cloak. If somehow J'onn could find Nate through his telepathic cloak he would just be opening himself up to an attack. But I doubt it as J'onn will be too busy burning from Quasar's attack.

Quasar seems to mainly fire standard energy attacks and it wouldn't be fire even if it's powered by the sun, but either way he won't have enough time to gather sufficient power with Joa and Obsidian attacking.

I didn't state Quasar will use fire I stated he'll use heat which in turn would combust oxygen and create fire. Which means he only needs to heat the air up to 4000 degrees but Quasar won't stop there. By comparison J'onn was burning from reentry which is only about 3000 degrees.

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Why would it weaken Todd? Heat isn't a problem, especially not if it's just from the sun. He tanks and regenerates from Shazam's lightning and even regular lightning is several times hotter than the sun on top of being much more focused than Quasar's blanket assault.

Also even inside a force field Quasar won't be able to defend against Obsidian when he's just shadow so he can still attack Quasar specifically.

I mean light tried to make a pun (kill me). Alan Scott defeated Obsidian by blasting him with excessive amounts of light, so Quasar can replicate that feat.

How is Obsidian approaching quasar through all the light he's giving off? Jao is the only character on your team that could attack Quasar and he's to off attacking Nate not that Jao's physical attacks would work.

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#21 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I'm actually just now noticing time manipulation is banned. That kinda ruins my whole strategy for Nate and actually I've technically been breaking rules the whole time by using reality warping.

I'll concede because I don't think I could win without breaking the rules unless I heavily extrapolate on offensive uses of Food Luck which even I don't buy.

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#22 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: It was an interesting debate, I had fun and even got to try out a few stupid strategies.

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#23 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by emperorthanos- (16568 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Sy8000 (35445 posts) - - Show Bio