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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio

High tier Pick a team tourney: Finals

mr_ingenuity

  • Nate Grey
  • Quasar
  • Silver Surfer
  • Full Knowledge
  • Morals Off
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Versus

@justicethorpsylocke

  • Iron Man
  • Dr Strange
  • Proxima Midnight
  • 1 day prep
  • Full Knowledge
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Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than city level.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

Oof, this is gonna be hard. Morals off Surfer and Quasar

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#4 Posted by Laxbro60 (97 posts) - - Show Bio

Oof, this is gonna be hard. Morals off Surfer and Quasar

Morals Off Nate > Surfer and Quasar just so you know where your priorities should be...

good luck

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#5 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. JTP actually has a team similar to mine so this will be interesting.

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#7 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2605 posts) - - Show Bio

@laxbro60 said:
@justicethorpsylocke said:

Oof, this is gonna be hard. Morals off Surfer and Quasar

Morals Off Nate > Surfer and Quasar just so you know where your priorities should be...

good luck

ehe.

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#8 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I can. Though really my prep is nothing special or elaborate. It's so I don't get TP dropped immediately basically

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#9 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke: Cyborg Superman (my Iron Man), Loki (my Dr. Strange) and Darkness (my character that isn't mainstream).

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#11 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17154 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Sure lol. I've seen other debates with this team. I have Strange so astral plane will be a battle

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/high-tier-tourney-rd3-major-hellstorm-vs-mr-ingenu-1894638/#js-message-1

Not sure if Mr. I will pull the same tactic though since he seems to use different ones everytime.

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#15 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by HigherPower (11993 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#18 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Sorry. I've been a little busy but I will try to post within the next week

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#19 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke:

Character Intros

Nate Grey aka X-Man

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Telekinesis

Nate's TK is the most versatile part of his powerset being that it can be used as a blunt instrument or surgical knife.

Telekinetically interrupting electrical impulses of a crowed to paralyze them.

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Redirects Jean Grey's TK

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Restraining & pinning Abomination to a wall.

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Nate TK shield withstands Tundra's stomp who was bigger than the surrounding mountains. Then Nate telekinetically blast Tundra off of him.

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Nate makes a dead alternate reality Forge speak by telekinetically controlling his neurons, & vocal cords.

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Fissures an alternate earth just to get a characters attention.

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Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

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Telepathy

Nate can hide his presents from other telepaths.

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PSI scans the planet.

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Nate telepathy is devolved enough to connect with virus microbes.

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By linking his mind to another he can learn months worth of information in an instant.

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Nate was even able to learn Qabiri's entire life story.

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Nate's presence on earth has been able to severely strain or take out weaker telepaths.

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Nate implanted his mind in every living creature on earth then later reformed as energy.

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Teleportation

Nate's capable of short range teleportation.

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Nate's long range teleportation allows him to travel the multiverse.

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He can even remotely teleport a character to an alternate earth.

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Precognition, Retrocognition & Psychometry

Mimic first comes into contact with Nate and starts seeing his future. Nate is far more advanced he has over 300 ways to see the future & can view multiple possible futures at a time.

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Nate coming into contact with a telepathic hive mind allowed him to see events he missed on 616 earth. Events pictured: Illuminati sending hulk to space, Civil War, Secret invasion, Dark Reign & even Osborne's plans for him.

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Psychometry is a subset of retrocognition & here is a basic explanation.

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Norrin Radd aka Silver Surfer

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Handbook Entry/Nova Corps Files

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Strength

Over powers Nova Prime

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Dominates Beta Ray Bill in hand to hand.

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Speed

Perceives microseconds & nanoseconds

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Speed blitzes Nova Prime at FTL speeds.

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Durability

Tanks his own power blasted back at him

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Withstands planet busting.

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Takes a beating from Warrior Madness Thor while trying to reason with him. While he is struck down multiple times as expected he isn't KOed

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Energy Manipulation

Quasar has a hard time depleting Norrin's energy due to the amount he has stored.

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Destroys a planet as a display of power. Here are the relevant scans.

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Creates a singularity with a discharged of energy.

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Absorbs Uni-Lord energy then releases it busting a solar system.

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Matter Manipulation

Makes Jack of Hearts feel excruciating pain.

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Atomizes an enemy.

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Transmutes Prince of Orphans into an inert solid.

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Norrin destroys a virus on the molecular level within thousands of infected corpse.

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Reconstructs Manhattan using matter manipulation.

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Cable & Norrin vaporize & repair the destruction they cause in their wake.

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Repairs earth by fusing with it stopping earthquakes & volcanoes across the globe.

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Wendell Vaughn aka Quasar

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Handbook Entry/Nova Corps Files

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Strength

Quasar constructs is where his strength lies and haven shown the capacity to make his constructs as big as earth I would consider Quasar exceptionally strong. Not saying he can move a planet but continents and islands would be well within his grasp.

Quasar created a razor big enough to slice the Soul Eater. As shown in the scans Soul Eater dwarfs planets to the point they seem like marbles. Using a construct so large should mean his strength/striking power is in the same range.

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During secret invasion Quasar was revived but limited in energy (being without the Quantum Bands) he displayed the ability to transform into a Hulk construct.

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Speed

Shielding his team with in nanoseconds while simultaneously absorbing their energy to reinforce them.

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Quasar catches the living laser absorbing him within his quantum bands before Living Laser is aware.

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Reacts to a thermonuclear explosion having just existed a portal on the moon.

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Durability

I would consider Quasar durability to be just as impressive as any other character in his tier. Quasar has produced shields capable of withstanding attacks form entire teams (avengers and x-men) & high level energy attacks. Although shields are not invulnerable they take quite a lot of physical strength and far more energy to by pass.

Shields withstand blows form Hulks (Professor and She Hulk), Hercules, hammer throws form Thor, cuts form wolverine and several other characters.

The last scan amuses me because Wolverine gives up attacking and decides to tunnel under the dome.

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With add energy Quasar shields his team from a blast they wouldn't have survived.

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Tanks the solar flare that destroys earth & the moon. Then tanks the nova which solar system busting in the least.

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Energy Manipulation

Absorbs the power cosmic to amp his blast while fight against Silver Surfer.

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Quasar shield absorbs a blast form Thanos' Avatar and Quasar creates a construct with it.

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Absorbs most of the energy Phoenix (Rachel Grey) is blasting out and by Quasar's own admission has the raw power of a star.

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Drains Ego the Living Planet a feat Silver Surfer failed to accomplish pages before.

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Absorbs a star to get the attention of Cosmic beings.

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Supplying the power to transmute stars.

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#20 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by HigherPower (11993 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice

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#22 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

Characters

Doctor Strange

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Powers/Abilities

  • Astral projection
  • Manipulation of energy and magical forces
  • Mystical entity summoning/incantation
  • Dimensional travel/manipulation
  • Mystical force fields/automatic shielding
  • Teleportation
  • Flight
  • Black magic
  • Clairvoyance
  • Illusions/telepathy

Iron Man

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  • 100 tonner
  • Hypersonic flight/reaction speeds
  • Suits are durable enough to resist nukes
  • Energy projection/absorbtion
  • Force fields
  • Technopathic interface
  • Nanobots/assimilation

Proxima Midnight

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  • Strong and durable enough to face Luke Cage and draw blood from him
  • Excellent speed and agility
  • High fighting skill
  • Wields a spear that turns into tracers of light that poison it's target and hold them down with the weight of a star

Prep

First off, we need to take telepathy out of the equation.

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He has a telepathic jammer signal that blocked the telepathy of Red Onslaught (who was affecting the entire planet), so it should work here as well.

Next, I need a contingency for one of the nastier opponents here, Nate Grey.

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Nate's energy form would be pesky, as you've shown. However, with full knowledge, Tony will know his energy wavelength and prepare his armor to absorb it, like he did to Spectrum above.

The Battle

So as I've shown Tony will have an inhibitor signal that nullifies Nate's TP and then he can absorb him, taking him out of the fight.

As for Surfer, I don't think it's likely that he'll be able to get through Strange's shields.

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  • In the first scan here he was shielding from a fight between Satannish and Mephisto that was completely destroying the dimension that were in and spilling over onto Earth, causing chaos. We can see the energy flying past Strange, so it's clear to see that he was shielding from a dimension level attack.
  • In this next one we see that he can easily protect from blasts from Shuma-Gorath in it's own dimension, where it is considered one of the most powerful beings in existence.
  • Here he shields from Galactus, who was admittedly not at his most powerful. Still, this is an excellent feat, and I think it speaks to how well Strange would be able to protect from the inferior Silver Surfer.

As for victory scenarios, there is one tactic that I see working.

Strange has spells that cast illusions powerful enough to affect your team.

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  1. Here he used his mental projection spell to cause Galactus pause, who I'm pretty sure has more impressive resistance than anyone on your team.
  2. Even more impressive, he shows that he could easily put Pre-Retcon Beyonder under an illusion that he would be completely unaware of and that would render him benign.

I'm sure that you will bring up a variety of feats that will show how Quasar and Surfer may be capable of resisting and/or adapting to such things, but those brief moments of discombobulation will be your downfall due to the deadly Proxima Midnight.

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These scans explain how her spear can hold their target down with the weight of a star. While your team is incredibly durable, I don't believe they are durable or strong enough to resist this.

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As shown above, the spear also carries a sort of poison with it that was going to kill Monica Rambeau in spite of her living light form. So I believe that this poison will affect Surfer and Quasar as well in spite of their cosmic physiology.

Conclusion

  1. Tony's signal nullifies Nate's TP.
  2. Nate is absorbed by Tony.
  3. Quasar and Surfer are incapped or at least stunned by Strange's illusion spell.
  4. In the time that they are stunned or incapped, Proxima takes them out.

@mr_ingenuity

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#24 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke:

Opening Strategy

At the starts of battle Nate & Norrin will connect my team telepathically. This allow their team instant cooperation/planning as telepathy can transfer day's worth of info in fractions of a second. So what that means for battle is my team can adapt their strategy within a second based on everyone's thoughts and extra sensory perception.

Going into this my team is morals off so they're whole objective is to kill their opponents in the fastest way possible. With full knowledge, precog, and cosmic awareness they'll know the most effective way from the start.

Norrin will go on the offensive with continuous planet busting attacks at FTL speeds. Norrin has shown he can planet bust casually and has a large energy reserve going by Quasar's statements. On top of that with Quasar around when Norrin thinks about replenishing his energy Quasar will do so.

As for how Norrin's attack plays out is simple. Norrin won't be holding back to reduce about collateral damage, with the planet being instructable he has no reason to. So no matter where the opponents try to escape to on the planet they'll within Norrin's AOE. The rest of the team has a shield thru Quasar who can absorb energy to strengthen said shield.

Quasar specialises in support and defenses so he'll stick to that. Quasar will make sure to funnel Norrin the necessary energy so he may continue his bombardment. And while he's at it he'll absorb any energy attacks that target his team. Not that Norrin can't outrace them or his team can't tank but that it will add additional energy to Norrin in his bombardment. Now we know Quasar can't manipulate or absorb magical energy but oddly enough he won't have to worry about that.

Nate is the wild card since his powerset focuses circumventing durability, so he'll do just that. Since Nate's opponents are held up behind a shield he'll focus on getting them out by what ever means necessary. The simplest solution is to teleport them out which Nate can do. I doubt their opponents have any defense shields or otherwise in place to being forcibly teleported. I know for a fact Iron Man does not.

Nate no matter where Nate teleports his opponents to they'll already be suffering the of planet busting energy attacks. But Nate will not bank on that. He'll teleporting the opponents apart from one another across the planet, while communicate their coordinates to the rest of his team. At FTL speed Norrin can be anywhere on the planet attack in a variety of ways and that's even before his opponents even registered they have been teleported.

I'll end here while I do have thing to refute within your post I'll allow you first crack at rebuttal to keep things balanced.

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#25 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Actually you should go ahead and counter me. We both have character intros and battle plans so it'll make it even.

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#26 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome. I will finally get another tourney finishing.

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#27 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Very well. I can't promise that I'll get it up in good time but I'll try

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#29 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Edited by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

My counters are going to be fairly basic, as there wasn't too much to really refute. Though I can tell you how my team can counter.

Norrin will go on the offensive with continuous planet busting attacks at FTL speeds. Norrin has shown he can planet bust casually and has a large energy reserve going by Quasar's statements. On top of that with Quasar around when Norrin thinks about replenishing his energy Quasar will do so.

This is indeed true, but I believe Strange's shields will hold, as they have held against Norrin before.

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Here he fights a morals off clone of the Silver Surfer, and we can see in this part of the fight that his auto-shields allow him to tank a direct blast from him and continue to fight, shield, and restrain the Surfer.

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Later in the issue, his shields show the ability to not only tank the Surfer's blasts easily, but absorb them and redirect them back at him.

These feats, along with the feats I provided before (of him tanking blasts from Galactus, Shuma-Gorath, and tanking dimensional destruction) make it clear that he can tank Surfer's blasts all day.

There are more feats I can provide as well.

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  • First one he tanks Dormammu throwing the entire Dark Dimension at Earth and protects it completely. This is another arguably dimension level feat
  • He he also tanks Dormammu, this time in his own dimension.

These are to confirm that Strange's other shielding feats are not high feats, rather he has a consistent history of shielding against very high level opponents.

Nate is the wild card since his powerset focuses circumventing durability, so he'll do just that. Since Nate's opponents are held up behind a shield he'll focus on getting them out by what ever means necessary. The simplest solution is to teleport them out which Nate can do. I doubt their opponents have any defense shields or otherwise in place to being forcibly teleported. I know for a fact Iron Man does not.

Nate no matter where Nate teleports his opponents to they'll already be suffering the of planet busting energy attacks. But Nate will not bank on that. He'll teleporting the opponents apart from one another across the planet, while communicate their coordinates to the rest of his team. At FTL speed Norrin can be anywhere on the planet attack in a variety of ways and that's even before his opponents even registered they have been teleported.

You seem to misunderstand. Strange's shields are not stationary and Nate cannot simply teleport my team out of them.

As was seen in the fight between Strange and Norrin that I just posted, Strange's shields seem to be always with him as he directly tanks a blast from Surfer (with seemingly no shield up) and then reveals that he has shields up automatically.

Clearly he can share them with others as he does so in several of the shielding feats I provided.

So Strange will continuously be able to tank the blasts from Surfer while being able to retaliate as seen in their battle. Part of the retaliation will be the casting of the Images of Ikonn which I've already shown can give Galactus pause.

Or better yet the illusion that he placed Pre-Retcon Beyonder under.

While they are stunned Tony can absorb Nate's energy form and Proxima can use her spear to take out Surfer and Quasar.

I apologize for the late reply, I tend to procrastinate and get busy.

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#31 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke: I'm going to start by countering you initial post.

Rebuttal I

So as I've shown Tony will have an inhibitor signal that nullifies Nate's TP and then he can absorb him, taking him out of the fight.

Stark's inhibitors and energy absorption has a range limit. While the inhibitor has city block to multi city block potential, Stark's energy absorber only works on energy directed at him. Since your team has gone with the classic mmo strategy of turtling, they inadvertently nerfed their offensive capabilities.

With that in mind my team has two counters for such a tactic, Nate just moves away (I've never even stated Nate will use offensive telepathy), and Quasar depowers Stark's suit.

Strange has spells that cast illusions powerful enough to affect your team.

I doubt Strange can cast a spell on an opponent moving FTL. I have no reason to contest illusions working on Quasar but he apart of the team so even with it working he isn't any real danger. Then we have Nate whose sense are strong enough to over come out right reality warping. Keep in mind Nate doesn't have his telepathy.

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Now going back my team's strategy of being telepathically linked, which will negate Strange's illusion. That means even if Norrin (doubtfully) and Quasar see the illusion it will instantly contradict what they are receiving from the telepathic link.

Here he used his mental projection spell to cause Galactus pause, who I'm pretty sure has more impressive resistance than anyone on your team.

Even more impressive, he shows that he could easily put Pre-Retcon Beyonder under an illusion that he would be completely unaware of and that would render him benign.

The two instances you've shown are of two cosmic character not a their best. Galactus what on the brink of death, while Beyonder was limiting himself to the point Strange knew this was his only chance to stop him.

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Between that and my team's resistance these feats are irrelevant.

I'm sure that you will bring up a variety of feats that will show how Quasar and Surfer may be capable of resisting and/or adapting to such things, but those brief moments of discombobulation will be your downfall due to the deadly Proxima Midnight.

Both Norrin and Quasar can absorb energy, on top of that Norrin is moving faster than the spear can tag. Proxima has thrown away her weapon to the worst possible target like Captain America throwing his shield at Magneto. All I can say for this strategy is it's pretty ignorant of my team's capabilities.

These scans explain how her spear can hold their target down with the weight of a star. While your team is incredibly durable, I don't believe they are durable or strong enough to resist this.

As shown above, the spear also carries a sort of poison with it that was going to kill Monica Rambeau in spite of her living light form. So I believe that this poison will affect Surfer and Quasar as well in spite of their cosmic physiology.

I don't even have to debate how effective the spear would be since it will never land.

This is indeed true, but I believe Strange's shields will hold, as they have held against Norrin before.

Here he fights a morals off clone of the Silver Surfer, and we can see in this part of the fight that his auto-shields allow him to tank a direct blast from him and continue to fight, shield, and restrain the Surfer.

Later in the issue, his shields show the ability to not only tank the Surfer's blasts easily, but absorb them and redirect them back at him.

These feats, along with the feats I provided before (of him tanking blasts from Galactus, Shuma-Gorath, and tanking dimensional destruction) make it clear that he can tank Surfer's blasts all day.

There are more feats I can provide as well.

  • First one he tanks Dormammu throwing the entire Dark Dimension at Earth and protects it completely. This is another arguably dimension level feat
  • He he also tanks Dormammu, this time in his own dimension.

These are to confirm that Strange's other shielding feats are not high feats, rather he has a consistent history of shielding against very high level opponents.

If you don't mind I'm going to skip over this, since ultimately it comes down to counters for teleportation.

You seem to misunderstand. Strange's shields are not stationary and Nate cannot simply teleport my team out of them.

I can't misunderstand something you've niether shown or stated. Strange's shields are not stationary ok, but how does that stop Nate from teleporting someone out of them? All the feats you've shown where Strange's shields tanking an attack not resisting teleportation.

As was seen in the fight between Strange and Norrin that I just posted, Strange's shields seem to be always with him as he directly tanks a blast from Surfer (with seemingly no shield up) and then reveals that he has shields up automatically.

Clearly he can share them with others as he does so in several of the shielding feats I provided.

Strange is creating shields to protect the team within them, but how does that translates to dimension busting auto shields for the whole team? You have have a plausible argument that Strange has a personal auto shield that can tank a blast from Norrin but that's about it. So once anyone them leaves the safety of Strange's shield they are on their own. You say Nate can't simply teleport them out of them but provide nothing to the contrary.

So Strange will continuously be able to tank the blasts from Surfer while being able to retaliate as seen in their battle. Part of the retaliation will be the casting of the Images of Ikonn which I've already shown can give Galactus pause.

Or better yet the illusion that he placed Pre-Retcon Beyonder under.

While they are stunned Tony can absorb Nate's energy form and Proxima can use her spear to take out Surfer and Quasar.

Addressed.

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#32 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Stark's inhibitors and energy absorption has a range limit. While the inhibitor has city block to multi city block potential, Stark's energy absorber only works on energy directed at him. Since your team has gone with the classic mmo strategy of turtling, they inadvertently nerfed their offensive capabilities.

The signal will be coming from him and has a range, yes. But I fail to see how this means anything to the battle.

As for him not being able to absorb energy not being directed at him, this is false.

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With that in mind my team has two counters for such a tactic, Nate just moves away (I've never even stated Nate will use offensive telepathy), and Quasar depowers Stark's suit.

You have not yet shown Quasar affecting machinery nor have you shown him affecting non-stellar/non-cosmic energy.

Even if he could, Tony has so many contingencies built in his suit that it's really unlikely Wendell just has the mojo to shut it down instantly like that.

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He has shown resistance to depowering by the following:

1: Zero point energy

2: Magneto's magnetism

3-4: Sun flare level EMPs

Not to mention Tony being a technopathic energy absorber who gets power for his suit from many sources, so I really don't see anyone just straight up shutting his suit down because that has never been done to my knowledge (at least since the early 2000s)

I doubt Strange can cast a spell on an opponent moving FTL. I have no reason to contest illusions working on Quasar but he apart of the team so even with it working he isn't any real danger. Then we have Nate whose sense are strong enough to over come out right reality warping. Keep in mind Nate doesn't have his telepathy.

I'm gonna need some context for this dude, because after reading those scans it seems to me that Nate had been living that reality out for a long while but then came to a realization at that point in the story.

Strange doesn't need more than a few seconds, but this is redundant when it comes to Nate because Tony will still absorb him right off the bat, which I've shown he doesn't need contact to do.

Also, Norrin going FTL won't matter because he'll be delaying the inevitable, since, as I've shown, he cannot break Strange's shields.

Either way, Strange didn't have an issue tagging the Norrin clone or absorbing his blasts, so I don't see why he would have a problem landing a spell here.

The two instances you've shown are of two cosmic character not a their best. Galactus what on the brink of death, while Beyonder was limiting himself to the point Strange knew this was his only chance to stop him.

He is still affecting a being whose sentience defies human comprehension and whose physiology surpassing sensory perception, which tells me all I need to know in terms of him being able to affect your team.

Between that and my team's resistance these feats are irrelevant.

Again, Nate saw through the alternate reality after what seems to be a long time. This hardly equates to "resistance" in a capacity that matters to this fight, unless you can show me otherwise through the context of the feat.

Both Norrin and Quasar can absorb energy, on top of that Norrin is moving faster than the spear can tag. Proxima has thrown away her weapon to the worst possible target like Captain America throwing his shield at Magneto. All I can say for this strategy is it's pretty ignorant of my team's capabilities.

I am well aware that Quasar and Norrin would be able to absorb the spear. I am hardly ignorant of your teams abilities.

However, if they are stunned by Strange's spell then they will not be able to absorb it in that moment, no matter how brief.

Strange is creating shields to protect the team within them, but how does that translates to dimension busting auto shields for the whole team? You have have a plausible argument that Strange has a personal auto shield that can tank a blast from Norrin but that's about it. So once anyone them leaves the safety of Strange's shield they are on their own. You say Nate can't simply teleport them out of them but provide nothing to the contrary.

The feat you showed was him taking someone to an alternate Earth. This does not equate to just teleporting people around remotely.

Strange has similar feats to this.

No Caption Provided

For instance, banishing Hulk to the Crossroads like he did here.

And of course Strange himself is able to travel across dimensions and the like.

It doesn't matter though, because the feat you provided from Nate doesn't suggest he could do that, as Strange has similar abilities and yet I don't claim he can just remotely teleport your team around to wherever on the battlefield.

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#33 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke:

Rebuttal II

The signal will be coming from him and has a range, yes. But I fail to see how this means anything to the battle.

It means that Stark can't stop Nate from using his telepathy for anything beyond affecting their minds. Which I never stated Nate need or would do.

As for him not being able to absorb energy not being directed at him, this is false.

You've literally just posted a scan of Stark absorbing heat from a ship falling directly at him. How did you miss that? On top of that you ignored the scans right before the one you posted.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

You have not yet shown Quasar affecting machinery nor have you shown him affecting non-stellar/non-cosmic energy.

WUT? This is your best retort? Iron Man's energy is somehow different or more complicated to absorb? That's reaching beyond our solar system.

You really think Quasar can't absorb energy from tech, that is something he's done since issue one of his series. It doesn't take a leap in logic to say Quasar can't drain energy from the arc reactor in Iron Man's suit.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He has shown resistance to depowering by the following:

1: Zero point energy

2: Magneto's magnetism

3-4: Sun flare level EMPs

None of these scans show counters to energy absorption nor to the extent Quasar can achieve.

Not to mention Tony being a technopathic energy absorber who gets power for his suit from many sources, so I really don't see anyone just straight up shutting his suit down because that has never been done to my knowledge (at least since the early 2000s)

So are you saying Quasar can't drain the suit or is that you don't feel it's possible because it hasn't been done to your knowledge. Either way that is the wrong way to go about it, since I've shown more than enough proof that Quasar energy manipulation is far above anything Stark can defend against.

I'm gonna need some context for this dude, because after reading those scans it seems to me that Nate had been living that reality out for a long while but then came to a realization at that point in the story.

Yes the initial reality warping disguise worked but Nate's extrasensory abilities adapted allowing him to see through reality warping. Stranges ability isn't reality warping (which isn't allowed anyway) it's a visual illusion. It wouldn't take a second to be dispelled via the telepathic link.

Strange doesn't need more than a few seconds, but this is redundant when it comes to Nate because Tony will still absorb him right off the bat, which I've shown he doesn't need contact to do.

I've never stated Stark needs contact, feel free to quote me where I've stated that in my previous post. It's evident that Stark's absorption is limited in range and he has only absorb energy directed at him. Nate won't be getting in range of Stark at any point nor will he direct any energy attacks at him. This isn't hard to understand nor is it a complicated strategy that takes many assumptions.

Also, Norrin going FTL won't matter because he'll be delaying the inevitable, since, as I've shown, he cannot break Strange's shields.

Either way, Strange didn't have an issue tagging the Norrin clone or absorbing his blasts, so I don't see why he would have a problem landing a spell here.

How is it delaying the inevitable. conceding your team can tag him has the connotation of your team can't win. At best you could argue a statmate at that point.

Not having an issue tagging a weak version without FTL combat speed isn't evidence of Strange tagging a faster opponent.

He is still affecting a being whose sentience defies human comprehension and whose physiology surpassing sensory perception, which tells me all I need to know in terms of him being able to affect your team.

Did you read the scan Beyonder is trying to be human, which Strange confirms by stating he limits himself.

Also in retrospect not only was Galactus dying but the spell Strange used would only be applicable to Norrin. The sole character you've conceded your team can't tag.

No Caption Provided

.

Again, Nate saw through the alternate reality after what seems to be a long time. This hardly equates to "resistance" in a capacity that matters to this fight, unless you can show me otherwise through the context of the feat.

Nate saw through something far more potent than an illusion, something Strange can't replicate to fool Nate's senses for any amount of time. The only character Strange is even capable of affecting is Quasar which doesn't amount to anything considering Quasar has an energy sense. That has allowed him to react to and track light speed energy.

But I'm still of the opinion Nate's senses combined with a telepathic link would dispel any illusion Strange can direct at quasar.

I am well aware that Quasar and Norrin would be able to absorb the spear. I am hardly ignorant of your teams abilities.

However, if they are stunned by Strange's spell then they will not be able to absorb it in that moment, no matter how brief.

As I've stated before QUasar energy sense will allow him to react to the spear. Quasar energy sense allowed him to react to a solar flair and track Living Laser to the moon.

No Caption Provided

.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And as this scans shows Quasar can passively absorb energy. The very thing I've stated Quasar will be doing in my strategy.

No Caption Provided

.

The feat you showed was him taking someone to an alternate Earth. This does not equate to just teleporting people around remotely.

Teleporting someone one to another universe is the pinnacle of teleporting, and what the scan show is the definition of remotely. Since Nate can't BFR them he can at least move them around the battlefield.

For instance, banishing Hulk to the Crossroads like he did here.

And of course Strange himself is able to travel across dimensions and the like.

It doesn't matter though, because the feat you provided from Nate doesn't suggest he could do that, as Strange has similar abilities and yet I don't claim he can just remotely teleport your team around to wherever on the battlefield.

Nate isn't BFR anyone he's relocating them outside of Strange's shield, which you claimed wasn't possible and now you're not even bringing any evidence to refute that point. You've completely sidestepped your original claim and opted to stated strange can also teleport. A feat I have never question, nor does it stop my strategy from proceeding.

Even if Nate could fail at such a simple task, he can open a portal into Strange's shield and direct Norrin to fire into it.

All it takes is one shot to defeat your team and you opted to have them turtle.

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#34 Posted by HigherPower (11993 posts) - - Show Bio

What I really like about this debate is that it is short and concise. No extra gunk, but right to the point.

Good job both of you.

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#35 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I will do two more, it would seem MrI should do one more. Correct?

Sorry I haven't gotten to it yet

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#37 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

It means that Stark can't stop Nate from using his telepathy for anything beyond affecting their minds. Which I never stated Nate need or would do.

Nor did I ever state that the jammer would do so. It will inevitably keep them from being offensive TPed tho

You've literally just posted a scan of Stark absorbing heat from a ship falling directly at him. How did you miss that? On top of that you ignored the scans right before the one you posted.

Um, no. It hadn't hit him or anything so I don't see why it matters. By this logic, absorbing sunlight isn't a valid energy absorption feat because technically the sunlight is being directed at the person.

Either way it doesn't matter. He absorbed Spectrum without her being "directed" at him so he will do the same here.

WUT? This is your best retort? Iron Man's energy is somehow different or more complicated to absorb? That's reaching beyond our solar system.

You really think Quasar can't absorb energy from tech, that is something he's done since issue one of his series. It doesn't take a leap in logic to say Quasar can't drain energy from the arc reactor in Iron Man's suit.

You know, looking back on your feats for Quasar I've noticed that he never drained anybody under his own power. Nearly all the feats you've posted involved him absorbing energy "directed at him". Then two of him absorbing ambient energy (the star feat and the power cosmic feat), then a feat with Ego which is invalid because he needed a machine built by Reed and Tony (though it is a good raw power feat, it isn't applicable to absorption in combat).

Taking someone's power when that character has energy absorption of their own and has built vast amounts of contingencies against being shut down and disarmed, is an entirely different story.

Now obviously, in a one-on-one fight Quasar would overpower Tony simply by virtue of his massive raw power and the ability to repurpose Tony's attacks, but that isn't the fight we're talking about.

Quasar, based on those feats, still has yet to drain a character, which is something that I feel would have happened once or twice in his history if it was something he could do it so easily. It's very possible that the Quantum Bands do have such limitations on the sort of power that can be harnessed by the wielder.

I'm sure you disagree with what I just said, and that's fine. At this point in the debate, the voters will have to come to their own conclusion about this individual point.

None of these scans show counters to energy absorption nor to the extent Quasar can achieve.

So are you saying Quasar can't drain the suit or is that you don't feel it's possible because it hasn't been done to your knowledge. Either way that is the wrong way to go about it, since I've shown more than enough proof that Quasar energy manipulation is far above anything Stark can defend against.

Addressed.

Yes the initial reality warping disguise worked but Nate's extrasensory abilities adapted allowing him to see through reality warping. Stranges ability isn't reality warping (which isn't allowed anyway) it's a visual illusion. It wouldn't take a second to be dispelled via the telepathic link.

This is incorrect. Strange's illusion is not visually based. The Beyonder has no biological senses by virtue of being a cosmic cube being and yet was still affected by the illusion.

I'm not sure whether or not the telepathic link would break the spell, as they will all be affected at the same time and haven't really shown resistance to magic, but even if they could, I find it very unlikely that they will break it instantly.

I find it very likely that they will have at least a few seconds (honestly more) of being trapped in an illusion, and in that time Proxima will take out Quasar and Surfer and Tony will absorb Nate.

I've never stated Stark needs contact, feel free to quote me where I've stated that in my previous post. It's evident that Stark's absorption is limited in range and he has only absorb energy directed at him. Nate won't be getting in range of Stark at any point nor will he direct any energy attacks at him. This isn't hard to understand nor is it a complicated strategy that takes many assumptions.

Wait, it was a part of your strategy that Nate is going to hang half the planet away? That wasn't communicated in your opening post.

Are you trying to say that Nate will know that Tony plans to absorb him? That seems a tad far fetched.

Again, if Tony could straight up absorb Spectrum just by knowing her wavelength I don't see why he couldn't do the same here to Nate.

How is it delaying the inevitable. conceding your team can tag him has the connotation of your team can't win. At best you could argue a statmate at that point.

Not having an issue tagging a weak version without FTL combat speed isn't evidence of Strange tagging a faster opponent.

How does that follow? Let's just say that Norrin was the last person on your team surviving (assuming Tony would absorb Nate and Quasar got finished by the illusion/spear combo. Are you suggesting that Norrin would then just blitz around the planet and never get hit? Proxima would throw the spear at him (which is FTL) and while he was dealing with that Strange would just tag him with the illusion and Proxima would call it back and throw it again.

There isn't really a stalemate scenario here.

Did you read the scan Beyonder is trying to be human, which Strange confirms by stating he limits himself.

Well Beyonder didn't become mortal or anything. His omnipotence would allow him to do so possibly but would result in the loss of his powers because he wouldn't be able to undo it.

I'm aware that Strange did not cast it on a full power Beyonder. That would mean he could cast a similar spell on the likes of the Living Tribunal which he of course can't do.

The point of the scan was rather to show that Strange has a spell which can affect someone who should logically have perfect resistance from such things due to the level of sentience he operates at. Someone who is simply made of cosmic energy and whose physical existence defies any human understanding as he exists on many greater planes of reality.

I've outright stated that the likes of your team could break the illusion in time, but I think this feat at the very least lends to the idea that your team will be fooled for a few seconds.

Also in retrospect not only was Galactus dying but the spell Strange used would only be applicable to Norrin. The sole character you've conceded your team can't tag.

Right, that exact spell would only apply to Norrin (and possibly Nate) but there's still the illusion.

Nate saw through something far more potent than an illusion, something Strange can't replicate to fool Nate's senses for any amount of time. The only character Strange is even capable of affecting is Quasar which doesn't amount to anything considering Quasar has an energy sense. That has allowed him to react to and track light speed energy.

And given Nate's psychometry and connection to other dimensions and such, it makes sense that he was able to do so.

However, it took time is my point. All I really need to argue for is "those brief moments of discombobulation", as I stated in my opener.

I feel that if Strange can fool cosmic awareness, he should be able to fool energy sense, at least briefly.

But I'm still of the opinion Nate's senses combined with a telepathic link would dispel any illusion Strange can direct at quasar.

Which I understand, but I am of the opinion that Strange's illusion is potent enough for the entire team to be, at the very least, stunned.

Again, I think we're at the point that the audience simply needs to take what has been given and interpret it for themselves.

As I've stated before QUasar energy sense will allow him to react to the spear. Quasar energy sense allowed him to react to a solar flair and track Living Laser to the moon.

While he is stunned by any number of things that Strange can conjure into his mind, I feel the energy sense should be fuzzy at the very least.

And as this scans shows Quasar can passively absorb energy. The very thing I've stated Quasar will be doing in my strategy.

Passively absorbing energy is quite different that draining Tony's suit, if that's what you were getting at.

Teleporting someone one to another universe is the pinnacle of teleporting, and what the scan show is the definition of remotely. Since Nate can't BFR them he can at least move them around the battlefield.

Nate isn't BFR anyone he's relocating them outside of Strange's shield, which you claimed wasn't possible and now you're not even bringing any evidence to refute that point. You've completely sidestepped your original claim and opted to stated strange can also teleport. A feat I have never question, nor does it stop my strategy from proceeding.

You misunderstand the point I was making, and to be fair I didn't explain it terribly well.

It wasn't simply "Strange can teleport too", it's that being able to travel from one universe to another doesn't necessarily mean that he can freely teleport everyone around the current space at will. I was saying "hey, look at how Strange also has a universal/dimensional travel ability that has BFRd others to different dimensions yet doesn't really teleport people around one dimension (the given battlefield)".

The point being that having the ability to send someone from one dimension to another doesn't mean he will just teleport my team around the planet.

Even if Nate could fail at such a simple task, he can open a portal into Strange's shield and direct Norrin to fire into it.

Wait, when has he shown the ability to use portals?

Even if he could do this, again, Strange has auto shields which literally protected him when he didn't even know that the blast was coming and this time he has a whole day to fortify them.

They are a form of durability and it is not possibly to just teleport a blast between him and the shields because the point of the spell is that he literally is always protected from an attack (but when aware of the attack he can make the shields stronger, as he does in many of the feats I provided against Dormammu and the like).

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#39 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity@emperorthanos

Hey so I feel the debate has gotten to the point that we've argued all the major points and are repeating ourselves.

We could honestly just go to votes right now but Mr_I could post again if he wants to.

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#40 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by HigherPower (11993 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to get one in soon. I followed this debate closely.

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#44 Edited by Educated (887 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Edited by Educated (887 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke@mr_ingenuity@emperorthanos

As far as I could tell the opening for Ingenuity is to have Nate teleporting people out of their comfort zones long enough for Norrin to deal death blows while on the other spectrum of things Justice is using Strange to puts down powerful Illisions and to create openings in conjunction with Proximas spear attacks to incap

I don't know much about Proxima and how effective her spears are when they make contact with high tiers or if someone could teleport out of the effect but since this was not argued against much I'm left to assume they get the job done if they touch down. Same goes with how debilitating Stranges Illusions are (the focus seemed to focus on whether they were effective or not, rather than potency to someone who was infected) so I'm left to assume they are indeed effective enough to carry out Justices strategy to whom ever can be effected. Justice provided some very high end feats (despite me barely being able to make them out) to lead me to believe that Nate and Quasar could be affected (Although Nate seems like he would be able to bypass it given time) long enough to be struck by said light spears although I saw no solid argument made for the illusions or the spears being able to contend with Surfers speed and while I believe Justices strategy would work on Nate and Quasar given the argument presented it would leave them open (along with the initial teleport and mindlink gps) for surfer to capitalize, killing Ironman and Proxima with mentioned planet busting attacks.

This leaves me with an incapped Nate and Quasar and a Dead Iron man and Proxima within the first few seconds of the fight leaving Surfer and Strange to duke things out.

I believe the major turning points for me were @mr_ingenuity refusal to argue a way out of a possible incap which would of been pivotable

"I don't even have to debate how effective the spear would be since it will never land."

and this scan of Strange not only showing his shields were on par enough to block Norrin (while being backed up by other shield durability scans since I'm unaware if Surfer was blood-lusted there) and Stranges ability to tag Surfer somewhat with a spell led me to narrowly come to the conclusion that Strange could take this in a slight majority. Hence my vote is for Justice.

That being said this statement was of interest

Not having an issue tagging a weak version without FTL combat speed isn't evidence of Strange tagging a faster opponent.

I just wish Ingenuity had gone into more detail and backed up the claim better and showed possible context disputing the claims made by the scans. Had you done this as well as provided a case for either one of your characters breaking out of the incap, or surfer being able to help one of them out of it or even intercepting it.. you would of had my vote.

Very close Cav, enjoyed the read, good luck with future votes guys

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#47 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio

@educated: I will do so once I get to my computer

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#48 Posted by KrleAvenger (26119 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Sorry mate. Don't think I'll be able to vote. Where did you find that callout list tho? You made it yourself?

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#49 Edited by justicethorpsylocke (3035 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15625 posts) - - Show Bio