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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

High tier Pick a team tourney

@darthjhawk

  • Martian Manhunter pre 52
  • Alan Scott
  • H'el
  • Morals Off
  • Full knowledege
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Versus

@mr_ingenuity

  • Nate Grey
  • Quasar
  • Silver Surfer
  • Full Knowledge
  • Morals Off
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Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than City level
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao of course I get SS the first round😂😂

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#3 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: I'll have an intro up within the next two days. So you can wait if you would like.

Online
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#5 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: that's cool with me, gives me some time to do my other matches and think of a strategy for ours.

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#6 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: that's cool with me, gives me some time to do my other matches and think of a strategy for ours.

Actually if you don't mind, I'm gonna go ahead and do an opener for today, I came into some unexpected free time.

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#7 Edited by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

For my opener, I'll run over each member of my team, their stats, and what they bring to the table. I'll end with some initial thoughts, but no strategy as I do not know what you are yet bringing to the table. Now on to it.

J'onn J'onzz, The Martian Manhunter

I am Mars' sole survivor. There is a reason for that. -Martian Manhunter
I am Mars' sole survivor. There is a reason for that. -Martian Manhunter

BIO:

In 1955, an Earth scientist named Dr. Saul Erdel, while experimenting with alien (possibly Martian) technology in secret, accidentally pulled J'onzz from Mars to Earth. This sudden revelation of a seven foot tall alien caused Dr. Erdel such a shock that his heart gave out, leaving J'onn stranded on a foreign planet with malfunctioning teleportation technology, and no easy way home.

J'onzz resolved to use his time on Earth to help others, upholding truth and justice as he had done on Mars for so many years. He has taken many forms and played many roles over the years: detective, spy, superhero, diplomat, corporate head; J'onn always uses his vast powers and abilities to protect the weak and serve the common good, as the Manhunter from Mars.

Powers and Abilities:

J'onn has a vast array of abilities. I'll list them here.

Super Strength - The Martian Manhunter possesses vast amounts of superhuman strength comparable to Superman's strength, easily making him one of the physically strongest beings on the planet. J'onn, Superman and Wonder Woman were capable of moving the earth. J'onn can further supplement his strength by increasing his size. His great strength has also been shown by his ability to harm Superboy-Prime.

Invulnerability - J'onn has invulnerability sufficient for him to take blows from enemies whose strength surpass even Superman, such as Despero. He can also increase his invulnerability by altering his density to become super dense. His invulnerability protects him from the harsh environments of space and also re-entry into the earth's atmosphere. His skin can also repel bullet fire.

Flight - Martian Manhunter has been seen flying at Mach 10 in Earth's atmosphere. He has maneuverability and flight speed comparable to Superman.

Super Speed - J'onn and other Martians have speed that allows him to keep up with the Flash. His speed grants him accelerated reaction times as well. He is able to process thoughts and carry out actions with incredible speed as well. He can even utilize his telepathy at super speed, able to create a telepathic conference room for the Justice League to discuss matters in the privacy of J'onn's mind in just an instant.

Stamina - The Martian Manhunter has nigh inexhaustible endurance and resilience. He can last for extensive periods of time without food, rest, or air. J'onn has been able to travel great distances in space and fight long battles without tiring.

Regeneration - J'onn can quickly recover from almost any injury. He is able to reconstitute his body even when severed into several pieces. His regenerative abilities have allowed him to reconstitute his body from even an extremely small mass in only a matter of seconds, and he has even grown a new body from a severed arm.

Shape-Shifting - The Martian Manhunter has vast shape shifting abilities that stem from complete control of his molecular structure. He is able to take on any shape he pleases, often taking the human guise of Detective John Jones. It has been revealed in the older comics, that he takes the powers and weaknesses of whoever he turns into. He can form shapes of objects or organisms alive, extinct, or imagined, and he has often shown to grow an extra pair of arms to supplement his fighting abilities and his strength. He can become as stiff and unmovable or as flexible and malleable as he pleases. He can also alter his size or the size and length of his limbs. During his fight with Antares, J'onn grew to the size of building. When increasing his size, J'onn often borrows mass from matter around him and incorporates it in his body, expelling it when he returns to his normal size. The Manhunter has even shown to use his shape shifting powers offensively during his fight with Ultraman. He has elongated parts of himself into bladed weapons during combat. His density is also variable and changes as he wills it. He can use this ability to become intangible and move through objects or allow attacks to fly by harmlessly through him or to become extremely dense to add more mass to his blows and increase his invulnerability. J'onn's control over his own molecular structure also allow him to adapt his visibility, granting him the ability to become invisible at will. His shape shifting abilities extend beyond even that allowing himself to change his chemical composition. He was able to turn his skin into a thick exoskeleton of human bone in order to shield him from a corrosive that would normally disintegrate his Martian physiology.

Intangibility - By greatly lowering the density of his own mass, Marian Manhunter is able to become intangible. He has used this power often during combat to protect himself from his enemy's attacks and to pass through walls and other structures to travel. Another use of this power is phasing opponents into solid objects, as J'onn as Fernus was able to do to Superman.

Invisibility - J'onn is able to control his visibility and render himself invisible to beings that can even view the entire electromagnetic spectrum. He can even appear invisible to Superman.

Telepathy - J'onn is the most powerful telepath on earth, being able to effect even the Spectre and Doctor Fate with his telepathy. Aquaman has stated that Martian Manhunter's telepathy exceeds even the telepathy of other members of the Martian race. He said that with J'onn's great telepathic power his own telepathy just "pings" off of him while when Aquaman was in the presence of J'onn's brother, Ma'alefa'ak, there was no such effect. J'onn is capable of linking the minds of all superheroes at once from a distance of the moon to all corners of the earth. He is also capable of reading the minds of all inhabitants of earth at once. His telepathic abilities also allow him to create realistic illusions; telepathically trace and locate people; shut down people's minds; brain blast; mental shield; influence thoughts; mind control people; manipulate memory; astral projection; possesion; induce sleep; reprogram or reorder minds; and transfer information directly into people's brains. The Martian Manhunter's mind control capabilities have allowed him to mind control the Joker and make him temporarily sane, as well as mind controlling several White Martians at once. He is also capable of mentally shielding those around him from telepathic assault. His own mental defenses are so strong that he is able to telepathically shield himself from the combined might of several White Martians and from the Mageddon machinery.

Psionic Blast - J'onn is able to project painful and destructive blasts of psionic energy from his eyes and his hands

Psionic Shield - J'onn is able to project a telekinetic shield of distinct size and force for their protection and that of others.

Martian Vision - Martian Manhunter can project powerful blasts of energy from his eyes. The power of these blasts are comparable to Superman's heat vision and have been shown to be able to harm the likes of Superman and Black Adam. He is able to create powerful enough blast to sever his own arm. He is also able to project telekinetic blasts of force.

Telekinesis - Presumably a side effect of his Martian vision is telekinesis. He seems to keep this ability in reserve, as he does some of his other powers. J'onn is capable of controlling / manipulating; move; push; cut out; attrack; and levitate objects even at the subatomic level. J'onn can manipulate atoms, subatomic particles, and cells perfectly. J'onn can fire extremely powerful Telekinetic Blasts, causing others to telekinetically explode and create a telekinetic shield. J'onn has only demonstrated this power a select few times.

Martian Breath - The Martian Manhunter has also demonstrated an increased lung capacity, allowing him to blow powerful wind bursts and freeze opponents with his breath, similar to Superman. J'onn has also demonstrated the ability to fly through space for extended periods of time.

Sonic Scream - J'onn has on occasion demonstrated the capability to emit a devastating sonic scream.

X-ray Vision - J'onn J'onzz described this ability colloquially as ionized particulate matter mapped to a variable density wavepacket. It allows him to see through objects.

Extrasensory Input - Martians have nine senses as opposed to a human's five senses, which grants the Martian more numerable and clearer perceptions.

Longevity - Martians possess naturally longer lifespans than human beings. J'onn has lived for at least one hundred years and is still not at old age.

Physical Capabilities

Strength:

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Striking:

Scan 1: MMH's punches are more than capable of hurting of hurting Superboy-Prime with his Anti-Monitor Armor,a beingwho I daresay approaches, if not even matches the Silver Surfer in strength. It should be noted how MMH uses his shape-shifting and phasing to outfight and gain an advantage over SBP

Scan 2: MMH along with his brother physically overpowers and fights off the Justice League. Notice that J'onn is restraining a PC Wonder Woman, Orion and Big Barda, arguably the most powerful Amazonian and two New Gods

Lifting:

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Scan 1: Now I know some people may not look too kindly upon this, however when pulling the Earth with Superman and Wonder Woman, I am not implying that MMH isn't struggling only that, MMH seems to be struggling the least. This is due by how their speech is written. MMH's is the only one whose is not broken up or struggled.

Scan 2: MMH effortlessly lifts a city block and states himself to be stronger than Superman. Now you could say that statements do not equal feats, but I think it has been proven that this one is true.

Speed/Reaction Time:

This section will be short as I mainly want to focus on combat speed as travel speed does not matter as much in battle. I will also touch on his speed in the telepathy section. But it should be understood that for MMH to phase/shape-shift to outfight and evade attacks from beings like SBP, Ultraman, Sinestro and Superman, MMH has to be at least FTL for those reactions and attacks.

Combat Speed:

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Scan 1: Martian Manhunter speed blitzes multiple white martians. To give an idea of scope, the average White Martian are high tier beings who can give Superman a lot of trouble, In this case MMH saves Kyle Rayner and Plastic Man, not pictured is Wonder Woman as well.

Scan 2: When MMH and the Flash are both turned bloddlusted, MMH is able to keep and fight evenly with him.

Durability/Endurance:

One of MMH's best assets in this fight is his tankiness and enables him to be a strong front liner.

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Scan 1: MMH tanks multiple hits from the JL, when he didn't even want to fight them. Self-explanatory I think.

Scan 2: People say that Supes told the stone to destroy itself, but he actually went to destroy it with heat vision. MMH reacts fast enough to protect the stone and tanks Superman's vision. This required FTL reaction time.

Scan 3: I bring this scan again to demonstrate that MMH uses his elasticity to evade and lessen the force of attacks, as seen with Aquaman's trident.

Telepathy:

We all knew it was coming, what makes MMH such a powerful being, his strongest weapon his TP. Able to affect the smallest beings to the cosmic, MMH's TP is undeniable.

Offensive:

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Scan 1: Martian Manhunter effortlessly mindwipes the Justice League, this is Superman, WW, Flash, Plastic Man, Batman

Scan 2: MMH easily breaks the Spectre's mental defenses and invades his mind. If you wish to argue this as PIS or something else, I have scans to prove that this happens more than once.

Scan 3: MMH mentally attacks Atrocitus, Larfleeze, Green Lantern, Sayd, Star Sapphire, and a Guardian all at once. Yes he was a BL at the time, but his ring had little to no charge IIRC and so this was an umaped attack that he could do normally.

Defense:

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Scan 1: MMH is casually able to defend Aquaman's mind from the influence of Starro the Conqueror.

Scan 2: While under attack from nine white Martians whose mental powers had been boosted a "millionfold" and being physically tortured, MMH's tele-defense still holds up and they cannot break his defense.

Scan 3: MMH is able to protect the JL minds from Dr. Destiny who was at this time IIRC a reality warper.

Range:

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MMH's telepathic range is insane, he is able to scan different realities/timelines for the Flash, scan every mind on earth including the Spectre,and can feel minds throughout the entire galaxy.

What Martian Manhunter brings to the table:

It is no doubt that J'onn has the physical stats to not only keep up in this battle, but be a heavy hitter and major player. His strength is capaable of hurting SBP level beings and is able to keep up with Flash level beings. His versatility from his stats, to his shape-shifting, having complete control of his molecular function that includes phasing, invisibility. And again his telepathy cannot be denied. Your team has more that impressive TP, but I am sure MMH is more than a match for them and even without is one of the most versatile combatants here. However thats brings me to my second member...

H'El, the Uber Kryptonian

Now you are just embarrassing yourself. -H'El
Now you are just embarrassing yourself. -H'El

BIO:

H'el was a clone create from the cells of countless of Kryptonians. However he believed to be native born Kryptonian and one of the brightest student's of Jor-El. Reasons of these false memories isn't fully known, but in his false origin story he was a prized student of Jor-El and was chosen to be the first Kryptonian test pilot in centuries, in a rocket designed by Jor-El. His departure was much celebrated and on the day of the launch, he was accepted into the House of El by Jor-El. During his voyage however, H'el was side tracked by unknown obstacles. Taking him through uncharted space, H'el arrived on Earth 27 years after Krypton's destruction only vowing to go back in time and stop the destruction of Krypton, not caring what it might cost Earth.

Powers and Abilities:

H'el also holds a wide array of powers.

H'el is a clone created from cells of multiple Kryptonians. This has given him all the basic powers and abilities of Kryptonians, but also some unique ones which aren't depended from radiation of the yellow sun.

His abilities common in Kryptonians under yellow suns include:

Yellow Sun Radiation Absorption

As a Kryptonian his cells absorb the radiation of the yellow sun. This gives him several powers.

Super-Strength - As a Kryptonian H'el possess almost limitless strength under yellow sun. However because his unique physiology he seems to be stronger than normal Kryptonian. he has displayed strength enough to engage both Superboy and Superman in a physical fight.

Invulnerability - H'el like other Kryptonians possess invulnerability under yellow sun. Again his unique DNA structure has seemingly increase this power above normal Kryptonian. He has shown little to no damage after attacks from other super-powered beings.

Flight - Much like his fellow Kryptonians, H'el can fly easily without any visible effort.

Super Speed - He has displayed speeds beyond Superman's, but it is unclear if it was purely speed or if it was due to his teleportation abilities.

Super-Hearing - He is able to hear from great distances.

Heat Vision, X-Ray, Telescopic. & Microscopic vision - As a Kryptonian clone he should possess the potential to heat vision, X-ray, telescopic- & microscopic visions.

Super Breath - Like normal Kryptonian H'el also possess super breath. He is even able to create hurricane winds with his breath.

Freeze Breath - H'el is also able to pull large amounts of air into his lung and release it as a freezing breath.

Total Recall - He seems to be able to recall memories in almost perfect detail.

Intellect - H'el seemingly also owns increased intelligent.

Super Healing - This is not certain. In his first appearance, H'el had multiple scares all over his body. Now, however, he is largely scar free. On the other hand, this could be attributed to artists failing to remember to draw all of the scars

Unique abilities

His unique DNA structure has provided him several unique abilities without being depended from radiation of yellow sun.

Teleportation - He has shown the ability to appear and disappear at will, originally thought to be just super-speed, H'el has teleported others great distances in the blink of an eye, for instance, moving from the surface of the sun back to Earth seemingly instantly. He is also capable of teleporting the entire Fortress of Solitude at will.

Telekinesis - He has shown the ability to move objects with his mind, create force fields, and has displayed fine control of his telekinesis allowing him to affect things on a molecular level (as when he began to deconstruct Superboy to see how he was made). His telekinesis seems to work like Superboy's, giving him an understanding of/mental connection to what he applies it to as if it were another sense.

Telepathy - H'el has displayed several abilities that fall under the scope of telepathy. He gave Supergirl the ability to speak English and gave her the illusion that he was Superman.Matter Manipulation - H'el was able to shrink Supergirl down to send her to the bottled city of Kandor, but expressed that he was unable to do the same with his own body, so the extent of this ability is unknown

Astral Projection - H'el has shown the ability to project himself to others when he himself is not physically able to accompany them. Similar to the use of holograms. However, this could be another application of his telepathic abilities.

Chronokinesis - Through unknown means H'el later acquired ability to move through time at will. He can also be in many different era simultaneously, though doing so seemingly weakens him a lot.

Physical Capabilities:

Strength:

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Scan 1: H'el blitzes and nearly knocks N52 Supes out with a single blow. Supes has FTL reaction speed, and he couldn't react to H'el. Also doubles for combat speed feat.

Scan 2: Superman attempts to blitz H'el but H'el casually swats him aside, can double for reaction speed for H'el

Scan 3: H'el is able to knock Superman into Lunar orbit with one blow. I'd say that's pretty freaking strong.

Durability:

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Scan 1: H'el no sells a hit from a sun-amped Supergirl, Sg is knocked back and states her hands feel numb.

Scan 2: Superman comes in speeding from orbit and bull-rushes H'El, hitting H'El with punches that shake the planet, punches that can be felt all the way down to Earth's core and up to the Watch Tower. H'El was fine overall, showing no signs of taking damage

TK, TP, and Teleporting

Telepathy:

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Scan 1:Projects an illusion into making Supergirl think she was attacked by Superman.

Scan 2: Telepathically controls an alternate timeline Kon-El (Superboy).

Telekinesis:

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Scan 1: Uses his telekinesis to rip Superboy up on a molecular level, picking him apart "atom by atom".

Scan 2: Telekinetically restrains Superman, Wonder Woman, and Superboy all at once.

Scan 3: Telekinetically explodes some Kryptonians (under a red sun).

Scan 4: Counters Superboy's telekinesis with his own, launching the debris thrown at him back at Superboy.

Teleporting:

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Scan 1: He teleports into Superman's Fortress of Solitude without Superman even knowing or any alarms setting off.

Scan 2: He Telekinetically removes some weaponry attached to the Flash then teleports the Flash from the Fortress of Solitude to the Watch Tower in Earth's orbit.

Scan 3: H'El teleports Supergirl from her Sanctuary located at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean to the surface of the Sun

What H'El brings to the table:

Another versatile member of my team, H'el brings in the teleportation factor. His teleportation is a skill that will be insanely useful in combat here. He can move his team around the battlefield to evade attacks and set up ambushes. This can coupled with using it against your team. No I am not talking about BFR but teleporting them away from my team be it a few feet or a hundred to stop an attack. Additionally his physicals are nothing to be undersold either. They allow him to help overpower your team as well, when the mental game isn't a go. His TK is also an immense factor that can help help rip apart the more fleshy of your team. Now this brings me to my final member...

Alan Scott, the Original Green Lantern:

And I shall shed my light over dark evil, for the dark things cannot stand the light. The light of … THE GREEN LANTERN! -Alan Scott
And I shall shed my light over dark evil, for the dark things cannot stand the light. The light of … THE GREEN LANTERN! -Alan Scott

BIO:

Alan Scott, the bearer of the mystical Starheart, is the original Golden Age Green Lantern and a founding member of the Justice Society of America. An all-time great, Alan continues to fight for truth, justice and freedom well into old age as a member of the Justice Society.

Powers and Abilities:

Alan as a Green Lantern is more than known for his vast arsenal.

  • Blast Power
  • Density Control
  • Dimensional Manipulation
  • Duplication
  • Earth Manipulation
  • Energy Based Constructs
  • Energy Manipulation
  • Energy Shield
  • Flight
  • Force Field
  • Healing
  • Illusion Casting
  • Intellect
  • Leadership
  • Light Projection
  • Longevity
  • Magic
  • Phasing / Ghost
  • Power Item
  • Psychic
  • Reality Manpulation
  • Size Manipulation
  • Super Speed
  • Time Manipulation
  • Time Travel
  • Tracking
  • Weather Control
  • Willpower-Based Constructs

Alan Scott possesses powers comparable to a Green Lantern of the Green Lantern Corps, although what fuels his ring is vastly different; he receives power from the magical force called the Starheart, once accommodated within the Lantern rather than through the Green Lanterns' Power Batteries and since contained within his own body. The ring grants many prodigious abilities, such as flight, super human speed, energy blasts.... The ring can also actualize any objects Scott can visualize through will power and concentration, e.g. over sized human hands, force fields, or even devices with complex moving parts like automobiles or airplanes. The ring is capable of translating languages, illuminating traps, the creation of probes to seek out specific people or objects, repairing physical damage, or analyzing a potential threat. Using the power of the Starheart, Scott is able to move through the 4th Dimension and pass through solid matter. He can detect disturbances in the electromagnetic spectrum and can modify cast spells because of the Starheart’s connection to magic. Alan has shown the ability to teleport on multiple occasions, also teleporting other people with him. His ring is powered by his will, faith, and the mystical energies of the Starheart.

Physical Capabilities:

Construct Strength/Capabilties:

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Scan 1: Hal feels the Green Flame through his auto-shield.

Scan 2:Fights the Justice League and Justice Society with his constructs.

Scan 3-4: Defeats Obsidian, his energy beam is bigger than the planet

Speed/Reactions:

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Scan 1: Easily keeps up with Jay Garrick, while this is a travel speed depiction, Alan can fight and react at this speed and faster.

Scan 2: Intercepts Liberty Belle and Baroness Blitzkrieg, both solid speedsters in their own right.

Scan 3: Reacts within a nanosecond to defend against a nuke, doubles as durability feat.

Durability/Shields:

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Scans 1-2: No sells attacks from Supergirl and Power Girl.

Scans 3-5: Transports himself and some teammates through a black hole.

Scans 6-7: Unscathed by a barrage of nukes.

Versatility:

Mental Abilities:

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Scan 1: Defeats Hector Hammond in a telepathic battle, it lasted mere moments. Can post full fight.

Scan 2: Contains some of the most powerful telepaths in the DCU.

Scan 3: The Starheart can control beings as powerful as Dr.Fate and Obsidian

Teleportation:

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These are just meant to show that GL has teleportation capability too, on par with H'el

Phasing and Draining:

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Alan is more than capable of draining powers not only from other Green Lanterns, but even 5th dimensional imps. Additionally like MMH he has the capability to phase as well.

What Alan Scott brings to the table:

Alan is arguably the most diverse member of my little squad here. With being morals off, he will have no problem going full power with the Starheart. He has TP and phasing that can match MMH and H'El, but also the raw power to back it up. His speed and constructs are more than able to provide a strong weapon and diversionary tactic against your team. Being able to drain your team presents a strong advantage as well. I don't think your team has any answer for magic as well which is what Alan and the Starheart are.

Initial Thoughts:

I realize that when people come to see this battle, they will probably see me as the underdog given your team has SS and Quasar two heavy hitters and Shaman Nate Grey, who IIRC has been compared to Dark Phoenix being greater or equal to her. Consequently it is my job to prove that my team has advantages that will allow them to not only keep up in all areas of the fight, but get ahead and possibly pull out a win. I think so far, I have effectively proved this. I will not post specific strategies yet, as you have not placed an opener. But I look forward to a good and fun debate!

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#8 Edited by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: My opener is up, like I said I had some free time. Ball in your court!

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#9 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. Morals off Alan vs morals off Surfer will be fun to watch.

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#10 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

Character Intros

Nate Grey aka X-Man

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Telekinesis

Nate's TK is the most versatile part of his powerset being that it can be used as a blunt instrument or surgical knife.

Telekinetically interrupting electrical impulses of a crowed to paralyze them.

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Redirects Jean Grey's TK

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Restraining & pinning Abomination to a wall.

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Nate TK shield withstands Tundra's stomp who was bigger than the surrounding mountains. Then Nate telekinetically blast Tundra off of him.

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Nate makes a dead alternate reality Forge speak by telekinetically controlling his neurons, & vocal cords.

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Fissures an alternate earth just to get a characters attention.

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Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

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Telepathy

Nate can hide his presents from other telepaths.

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PSI scans the planet.

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Nate telepathy is devolved enough to connect with virus microbes.

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By linking his mind to another he can learn months worth of information in an instant.

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Nate was even able to learn Qabiri's entire life story.

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Nate's presence on earth has been able to severely strain or take out weaker telepaths.

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Nate implanted his mind in every living creature on earth then later reformed as energy.

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Teleportation

Nate's capable of short range teleportation.

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Nate's long range teleportation allows him to travel the multiverse.

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He can even remotely teleport a character to an alternate earth.

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Precognition, Retrocognition & Psychometry

Mimic first comes into contact with Nate and starts seeing his future. Nate is far more advanced he has over 300 ways to see the future & can view multiple possible futures at a time.

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Nate coming into contact with a telepathic hive mind allowed him to see events he missed on 616 earth. Events pictured: Illuminati sending hulk to space, Civil War, Secret invasion, Dark Reign & even Osborne's plans for him.

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Psychometry is a subset of retrocognition & here is a basic explanation.

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Norrin Radd aka Silver Surfer

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Strength

Over powers Nova Prime

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Dominates Beta Ray Bill in hand to hand.

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Speed

Perceives microseconds & nanoseconds

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Speed blitzes Nova Prime at FTL speeds.

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Durability

Tanks his own power blasted back at him

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Withstands planet busting.

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Takes a beating from Warrior Madness Thor while trying to reason with him. While he is struck down multiple times as expected he isn't KOed

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Energy Manipulation

Quasar has a hard time depleting Norrin's energy due to the amount he has stored.

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Destroys a planet as a display of power. Here are the relevant scans.

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Creates a singularity with a discharged of energy.

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Absorbs Uni-Lord energy then releases it busting a solar system.

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Matter Manipulation

Makes Jack of Hearts feel excruciating pain.

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Atomizes an enemy.

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Transmutes Prince of Orphans into an inert solid.

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Norrin destroys a virus on the molecular level within thousands of infected corpse.

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Reconstructs Manhattan using matter manipulation.

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Cable & Norrin vaporize & repair the destruction they cause in their wake.

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Repairs earth by fusing with it stopping earthquakes & volcanoes across the globe.

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Wendell Vaughn aka Quasar

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Strength

Quasar constructs is where his strength lies and haven shown the capacity to make his constructs as big as earth I would consider Quasar exceptionally strong. Not saying he can move a planet but continents and islands would be well within his grasp.

Quasar created a razor big enough to slice the Soul Eater. As shown in the scans Soul Eater dwarfs planets to the point they seem like marbles. Using a construct so large should mean his strength/striking power is in the same range.

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During secret invasion Quasar was revived but limited in energy (being without the Quantum Bands) he displayed the ability to transform into a Hulk construct.

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Speed

Shielding his team with in nanoseconds while simultaneously absorbing their energy to reinforce them.

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Quasar catches the living laser absorbing him within his quantum bands before Living Laser is aware.

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Reacts to a thermonuclear explosion having just existed a portal on the moon.

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Durability

I would consider Quasar durability to be just as impressive as any other character in his tier. Quasar has produced shields capable of withstanding attacks form entire teams (avengers and x-men) & high level energy attacks. Although shields are not invulnerable they take quite a lot of physical strength and far more energy to by pass.

Shields withstand blows form Hulks (Professor and She Hulk), Hercules, hammer throws form Thor, cuts form wolverine and several other characters.

The last scan amuses me because Wolverine gives up attacking and decides to tunnel under the dome.

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With add energy Quasar shields his team from a blast they wouldn't have survived.

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Tanks the solar flare that destroys earth & the moon. Then tanks the nova which solar system busting in the least.

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Energy Manipulation

Absorbs the power cosmic to amp his blast while fight against Silver Surfer.

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Quasar shield absorbs a blast form Thanos' Avatar and Quasar creates a construct with it.

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Absorbs most of the energy Phoenix (Rachel Grey) is blasting out and by Quasar's own admission has the raw power of a star.

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Drains Ego the Living Planet a feat Silver Surfer failed to accomplish pages before.

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Absorbs a star to get the attention of Cosmic beings.

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Supplying the power to transmute stars.

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#11 Posted by Darth_Nimrod (2489 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#12 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Great post will reply sometime tomorrow as you threw out alot. How many posts you wanna do?

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#13 Edited by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Since neither of us posted very many specific counters, I'll start with a short post detaling some general counters and opening strategy:

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Opening Counters and Strategy I:

Physicals and Abilities:

Strength:

As far as I can tell, my team has overall strength advantage, as they are all beings that can one shot and/or overpower Kryptonian and White Martian level beings.

Many of the strongest of those beings include Superman, Superboy Prime, multiple White martians, Supergirl, Triumph, and Obsidian, all of which approach top high tier and low herald level in strength, at least on par with your team.

Speed:

As shown in my previous post, H'el teleportation is faster than Superman level beings can react bringing a tactical advantage to this fight.

I also believe that my squad has the combat speed advantage, be it through FTL reactions and reflexes or teleportation.

Durability:

It should be clear how durable my team is be it through straight tanking, shields, or phasing. I shouldn't need to elaborate on this more until you counter this.

Versatility:

The most offensive versatile member of your team is Silver Surfer, while anything Quasar and Nate can do, my team can potentially do as well if not better.

My defensive versatility however I feel outclasses you teams, from Telepathy, to Shields, Constructs, Phasing, Shapeshifting, Molecule Manipulation, Teleporting, and Telekinesis

As i said I don't think your team has an answer for Alan Scott, the Starheart, and their magic. Especially with a morals off Alan giving in to the Starheart and going full power. This leads to draining of your team, and the Starheart magically taking control of one or more of them which I have shown can affect beings as strong as Obsidian and Dr. fate

Strategy:

The battle will likely start off with a TP battle,since your team includes Nate Grey, and Silver Surfer, my entire team is telepathic and we are all morals off. So IMO so far based on our mutual showings this would overall end in a stalemate, based off mutual offensive and defensive

Once both teams realize that TP will not solve this, they will move to other methods which include their powers not involving TP. H'el would likely start of by TK restraining your team and Green Lantern draining them. Martian Manhunter is then more than capable of phasing through, pummeling, or blasting them with his Martian Vision, and shapeshifting them into submission

I also do not see why the Starheart can't overpower and control Quasar and Nate Grey, quickly turning this into a 5v1.

Alan Scott can't be drained by your team seeing as they can't drain anything from a magical source. And I don't see how they tag MMH and H'el enough when they can consistenly and constantly phase or teleport each other around your team and the battlefield.

Overall I think while short, this should be good enough of an opening strategy for you to debate with. Hope we both have fun with this, I am so far.

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#14 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

Opening Strategy

Since teams have full knowledge there isn't any reason to try and defeat their opponents in direct combat. While my team matches up in every category why not uses every conceivable strategy to gain an advantage. So at the start of the match Nate will telepathically link my team & take them to the astral plane. With a telepathic link in place Nate can make my team invisible to telepathy forgoing the need to fight a telepathic battle.

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Now any telepath will be able to perceive my team but only adapt telepath can fight my team. The only way to fight an astral projection is to have astral projection, or be on the astral plane in some way shape or form. This is good for my team as Norrin gets a energy boost & my team can now attack physically without being attacked.

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The next stage would be focused on assault since defenses are assured. Nate will use his TK to crush H'el's brain, I've shown Nate is capable of more advanced neurological feats. H'el only defence against this would be his own TK. But that means H'el will be completely focused on staving off a TK attack to his brain to counter any other attacks. Basically incapacitating H'el as he can't win or stop Nate from doing so.

Norrin is my team most powerful member but considering his teammates' strategy he's free to do whatever. So Norrin will atomize the competition starting with J'onn. While J'onn can control his molecule density he doesn't control his atoms that make up his molecules. Moving on from J'onn, so H'el will be next in line & he doesn't have any feat to tank disintegration.

Quasar while limited to who is still capable of wreaking shop by draining Norrin's excess energy, absorbing the solar energy in H'el & the star the battle fields orbits. Then using stated energy to blast Alan.

If we consider J'onn & H'el to be decommissioned then there isn't any reason for my team not to gang up on Alan. So however Alan is fairing against Quasar will be drastically changed when Nate & Norrin piles on. Alan will need multi planet busting durability if he is to solo.

Rebuttal I

There isn't much I can respond to since my teams presence on the astral plane makes stats irrelevant.

The most offensive versatile member of your team is Silver Surfer, while anything Quasar and Nate can do, my team can potentially do as well if not better.

Can your team physically enter the astral plane? That is a very useful technique my team will use to bypass a physical fight. Considering all attacks will pass right through them.

My defensive versatility however I feel outclasses you teams, from Telepathy, to Shields, Constructs, Phasing, Shapeshifting, Molecule Manipulation, Teleporting, and Telekinesis

The only decent telepath your team has is J'onn & I still don't think he compares to Nate. But telepathy would only be a problem if my team weren't telepathically hidden.

As i said I don't think your team has an answer for Alan Scott, the Starheart, and their magic. Especially with a morals off Alan giving in to the Starheart and going full power. This leads to draining of your team, and the Starheart magically taking control of one or more of them which I have shown can affect beings as strong as Obsidian and Dr. fate

This is what I have a problem with considering a lot of my potential teams were shot down. I'll ask @emperorthanos is a Starheart possessed Alan allowed? Since in my opinion he shouldn't be, that would be no less than making Kyle a white lantern.

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#16 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters and Strategy II

Since teams have full knowledge there isn't any reason to try and defeat their opponents in direct combat. While my team matches up in every category why not uses every conceivable strategy to gain an advantage. So at the start of the match Nate will telepathically link my team & take them to the astral plane. With a telepathic link in place Nate can make my team invisible to telepathy forgoing the need to fight a telepathic battle.

As you say, both teams have full knowledge, and I agree that they should use every conceivable strategy. Martian manhunter is more than capable of establishing a mind linkfor my team, and also bringing them into the astral plane. So that advantage is a moot point for your team, as we come back to the same outcome where they will move to other methods which include their powers not involving TP or the astral plane. H'el's TK, teleportation, and physicals, MMH, numerous abilities, and the sheer magical versatility of Alan Scott and the Starheart whose magic, your team still has no answer for. My team's methods of offensive and defensive versatility outmatches yours.

Now any telepath will be able to perceive my team but only adapt telepath can fight my team. The only way to fight an astral projection is to have astral projection, or be on the astral plane in some way shape or form. This is good for my team as Norrin gets a energy boost & my team can now attack physically without being attacked.

Martian Manhunter and Alan Scott and more than capable of sensing and dealing with your team's telepathic skills. If you wish to take this to the astral plane that is more than fine, they can and will meet you there. And in that scan it doesnt seem like SS gets a power boost, but just that it is harder for him to be drained. Its the source of the power cosmic yes, but no where does it say that he gets any sort of boost. Besides my team can more than match yours in every category, even surpass them.

Just to prove my point MMH easily pulls the Spectre and the JL into the Astral Plane
Just to prove my point MMH easily pulls the Spectre and the JL into the Astral Plane

The next stage would be focused on assault since defenses are assured. Nate will use his TK to crush H'el's brain, I've shown Nate is capable of more advanced neurological feats. H'el only defence against this would be his own TK. But that means H'el will be completely focused on staving off a TK attack to his brain to counter any other attacks. Basically incapacitating H'el as he can't win or stop Nate from doing so.

That attack on H'El isn't gonna work. Having full knowledge of you team, and understanding that H'el is overall my that he is going to conceal his presence from your team to help prevent attacks and engage in attacks of his own. If Nate can't detect H'El, how is he going to TK crush him? And even if he did detect and attack him, H'el is more than capable of defending himself and attacking at the same time while also attacking your entire team with his TK. So H'El won't be incapacitated for this fight.

Norrin is my team most powerful member but considering his teammates' strategy he's free to do whatever. So Norrin will atomize the competition starting with J'onn. While J'onn can control his molecule density he doesn't control his atoms that make up his molecules. Moving on from J'onn, so H'el will be next in line & he doesn't have any feat to tank disintegration.

Again this tactic wont work, for one if J'onn goes intangible, how is SS going to affect him. Second J'onn has complete control over his molecular structure, this includes the atoms that make up the molecules. As for H'el, and as I said with Nate, H'el con conceal his very presence and his teleporting is MFTL. Surfer won't be able to hit him with the disintegration attack.

Quasar while limited to who is still capable of wreaking shop by draining Norrin's excess energy, absorbing the solar energy in H'el & the star the battle fields orbits. Then using stated energy to blast Alan.

I don't think the star is directly on the battlefield, and so if Quasar went to absorb it that would be self BFR which according to the rules, BFR of any kind is not allowed. Quasar seems to have to be in at least close contact with his targets to drain them. As I have already stated, none of your team is capable of tagging H'el easily who you seem to be going for alot. Even if he did succeed in draining all that power, what's to stop a Morals off Alan from from just re-draining that power from Quasar and giving it back to my team. Quasar would be unable to stop this since he has no answer for the magic of the Starheart.

If we consider J'onn & H'el to be decommissioned then there isn't any reason for my team not to gang up on Alan. So however Alan is fairing against Quasar will be drastically changed when Nate & Norrin piles on. Alan will need multi planet busting durability if he is to solo.

J'onn and H' El will still be very much in this fight, as I have already stated. I also wouldn't match up a morals off, Starheart Alan, as he would dominate him. Alan definitely has that durability as his shields can protect and endure him and several others from a black hole as I have already shown.

Rebutting the Rebuttal:

Can your team physically enter the astral plane? That is a very useful technique my team will use to bypass a physical fight. Considering all attacks will pass right through them.

I have already proven that my team can enter the astral plane so this "advantage" is useless.

The only decent telepath your team has is J'onn & I still don't think he compares to Nate. But telepathy would only be a problem if my team weren't telepathically hidden.

Each of my team is a powerful telepath in their own right and J'onn can definitely compare to Nate, I feel like you are lowballing my team a bit here. J'onn has galaxy level TP, and Alan can overpower powerful DC telepaths like Gorilla Grodd, and Hector Hammond. H'El's TP is capable of affecting Superman level beings who have strong TP resistance. My team has the capability to match Nate, detect your team even hidden, and overpower him. It seems Nate is your team's TP specialist and given that my team has 3 strong TP users, he is beaten, once he goes down this is a 3v2.

This is what I have a problem with considering a lot of my potential teams were shot down. I'll ask emperorthanos is a Starheart possessed Alan allowed? Since in my opinion he shouldn't be, that would be no less than making Kyle a white lantern.

We'll see what he has to say.

Overall Strategy:

My position hasn't really changed on this debate. I have negated your astral projection advantage, and my team can overpower Nate, who at this point seems to be your only reliable telepath. Once he is down this becomes a 3v2. Additionally as I said I don't think your team is tagging mine easily due to constant shields, phasing, and teleport spamming from my team for defense. In conclusion you still have provided no answer for my team's offensive durability including MMH's shapeshifting, offensive phasing, martian vision, and overall physical stats;H'el's Teleportation, offensive TK, and physicals, and Alan draining any and all energies your team has and having the construct strength to put your team down.

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#17 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Edited by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

Rebuttal II

As you say, both teams have full knowledge, and I agree that they should use every conceivable strategy. Martian manhunter is more than capable of establishing a mind linkfor my team, and also bringing them into the astral plane.

I think you're missing the point. My team is physically on the astral plane that means they retain all their powers, stats & feats.

See how the guards pass right through Sinister and Nate but Nate still physically grabs them. An astral projection wouldn't have any physical presence.

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Also can I see said feat of J'onn bringing characters to the astral plane physically?

So that advantage is a moot point for your team, as we come back to the same outcome where they will move to other methods which include their powers not involving TP or the astral plane. H'el's TK, teleportation, and physicals, MMH, numerous abilities, and the sheer magical versatility of Alan Scott and the Starheart whose magic, your team still has no answer for.

Unless your team is physically on the astral plane stats don't matter. Power on the astral plane is defined by strength of mind & will. Also teleportation on the astral plane is irrelevant as stated by multiple characters.

"In this place--without distance or time or physical law--hunting my prey is as simple as dreaming it closer."

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"An innerverse of sorts, where all minds meet as one--accordin' to my old mentor Forge----without physical restriction, without limitations...Where there is every bit as close as here."

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My team's methods of offensive and defensive versatility outmatches yours.

Now on the topic of offence & defence. My team out stats your's in energy projection on character in this thread besides Norrin can planet bust, Nate is the most powerful TK user, & Quasar can drain or BFR any energy attack. Norrin is the most durable, Quasar has the best shielding in this thread, & Nate can reform so I'm not particularly worried about posting durability feats. But since were on the topic Nate can survive planet busting while KOed & tank planetary energy attacks.

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Martian Manhunter and Alan Scott and more than capable of sensing and dealing with your team's telepathic skills. If you wish to take this to the astral plane that is more than fine, they can and will meet you there. And in that scan it doesnt seem like SS gets a power boost, but just that it is harder for him to be drained. Its the source of the power cosmic yes, but no where does it say that he gets any sort of boost. Besides my team can more than match yours in every category, even surpass them.

What I'm stating it only a telepath can see into the astral plane. Being able to draw on more energy is a energy boost in my opinion, & telepaths can absorb more psionic energy there so it should be no different for Norrin. The is point of me stating that is Quasar can drain Norrin as much as he would like & blast Alan with planet busting attacks.

Now addressing your scan, I'm not new to this so finding context is simple. That scan is from JLA 35 where J'onn takes the team into Jokers mind. Even a feat like that makes J'onn far more vulnerable to attacks. So no J'onn can't physically take his team to the astral plane.

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That attack on H'El isn't gonna work. Having full knowledge of you team, and understanding that H'el is overall my that he is going to conceal his presence from your team to help prevent attacks and engage in attacks of his own. If Nate can't detect H'El, how is he going to TK crush him? And even if he did detect and attack him, H'el is more than capable of defending himself and attacking at the same time while also attacking your entire team with his TK. So H'El won't be incapacitated for this fight.

Nate detected Xavier on the astral plane then pull him from it something Xavier thought impossible. So H'el a telepathy leagues below Xavier isn't going to fair any better at concealment.

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Nate is using all of his TK to crush H'el's brain not something you can just brush off. An attack on that magnitude is going to take all of H'el TK & concentration to prevent. Not to mention Nate has better destructive TK feats than H'el has defenses for.

Again this tactic wont work, for one if J'onn goes intangible, how is SS going to affect him. Second J'onn has complete control over his molecular structure, this includes the atoms that make up the molecules. As for H'el, and as I said with Nate, H'el con conceal his very presence and his teleporting is MFTL. Surfer won't be able to hit him with the disintegration attack.

Once again intangibility won't help J'onn he may control his molecules by attacking his atoms has shown to make him tangible. So Norrin's attack that scatters atoms would work just as well.

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What teleporting breaks the laws of physics for of course its FTL, that didn't need to be explained. As for H'el hiding my team has a telepathic link so what Nate knows Norrin knows & Norrin can see souls. Not to mention Norrin perceives nanoseconds, so unless H'el can move faster than a nanosecond Norrin will always see him.

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I don't think the star is directly on the battlefield, and so if Quasar went to absorb it that would be self BFR which according to the rules, BFR of any kind is not allowed.

As I've shown Quasar doesn't have to be anywhere near the planet's star to draw power. Here are the scans again.

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Quasar seems to have to be in at least close contact with his targets to drain them. As I have already stated, none of your team is capable of tagging H'el easily who you seem to be going for alot.

H'el is obviously the weakest member of your team. If he get's picked off form any one of my characters that's just one less character to fight.

Even if he did succeed in draining all that power, what's to stop a Morals off Alan from from just re-draining that power from Quasar and giving it back to my team. Quasar would be unable to stop this since he has no answer for the magic of the Starheart.

Maybe because Quasar stores energy in his bands which are connected to another dimension, or it could be that Alan has no usable feats on par with Quasar. For one he can't use his possessed feats & all he did against Ultra Humanite has contain a blast not drain him.

J'onn and H' El will still be very much in this fight, as I have already stated. I also wouldn't match up a morals off, Starheart Alan, as he would dominate him. Alan definitely has that durability as his shields can protect and endure him and several others from a black hole as I have already shown.

That's currently under discussion. Alan isn't Starheart possessed so you'll have to rely on his standard feats. With that you team has yet to show they can affect my team on the astral plane.

Black Holes are a an ambiguous durability feat at best nowhere near planet busting. You also failed to realize Superman was capable of tank the gravity & he's been KOed by a lot less than planet busting.

I have already proven that my team can enter the astral plane so this "advantage" is useless.

Still have yet to show your team doing so physically.

Each of my team is a powerful telepath in their own right and J'onn can definitely compare to Nate, I feel like you are lowballing my team a bit here. J'onn has galaxy level TP, and Alan can overpower powerful DC telepaths like Gorilla Grodd, and Hector Hammond. H'El's TP is capable of affecting Superman level beings who have strong TP resistance. My team has the capability to match Nate, detect your team even hidden, and overpower him. It seems Nate is your team's TP specialist and given that my team has 3 strong TP users, he is beaten, once he goes down this is a 3v2.

Nates TP allow him to connect minds across the multiverse & I still wouldn't consider him to have universal TP. So I'm not sure why you consider J'onn galaxy level.

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Worlds in this context means universe as each earth is within a separate universe.

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Alan nor H'el can match Nate as when shown when Nate loses control of his power simply being on the same planet KO's weaker telepaths. You've shown all of two feats for H'el not even worth mentioning in a telepathic debate. While Alan only has one usable telepathic feat you've shown. Ultra Humanite had taken control of Alan's power with Thunderbolt. Alan wasn't even aware he had a hand to play in that feat. Star Heart Possessed feats are out.

Xavier & Jean grey are among the most powerful telepaths on marvel earth & they are leagues below Nate.

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When Nate doesn't want to be found he doesn't have to be. Xavier & Blaeuesmith tried searching for by themselves for weeks. Until they met an used a unique by looking for a blank space. J'onn won't be able to assault my team's minds because for him they don't even exist.

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#21 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

Also how many posts did you wanna keep this to?

I'll leave that to you, since you opened I'll close.

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#22 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn I can't use Fernus or Full Starheart, and I have to up against Shaman and SS? I'm getting all the nerfs here lol.

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#23 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Fernus is just a morals off MMH technicaly. Since you have the perk you can use him as an example

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Yeah I know that. They're both above this level. I wasn't being that serious.

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#27 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Final Counters and Strategy III

I think you're missing the point. My team is physically on the astral plane that means they retain all their powers, stats & feats.

See how the guards pass right through Sinister and Nate but Nate still physically grabs them. An astral projection wouldn't have any physical presence.

I understood your point just fine, but I think you are trying to separate astral projection from the astral plane when they arent all that separte lets define Astral Projection and the Astral Plane For Marvel, The concept of astral projection assumes the existence of another body, separate from the physical body and capable of traveling to non-physical planes of existence. Commonly such planes are called astral, etheric, or spiritual. Astral projection is often experienced as the spirit or astral body leaving the physical body to travel in the spirit world or astral plane.

As for DC astral projection is the ability allows the character to bring their "astral body" out of their "physical body" in order to do a number of things. Users can separate their spirit from the body by entering a trance, gaining access of travel to the Astral Plane. Experienced individuals may control both the Astral and Corporeal presences.

Almost all TP battles take place on the mental plane, so MMH conducting battles like this and bringing people onto the same plane means he can bring others as well as seen below.

Also can I see said feat of J'onn bringing characters to the astral plane physically?

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We both have already posted scans from JLA 35 as well, also I am not sure as to why you can't believe they are "physically" there. MMH brought them to the astral plane and then into the Joker's mind to prove a point to the Spectre. I am also unsure as to why you keep stating they are "physically" there, and retain their stats, powers, and feats but then say this:

Unless your team is physically on the astral plane stats don't matter. Power on the astral plane is defined by strength of mind & will.

It feels like you are contradicting yourself here, but maybe you can shed some more light on what you mean.

Now on the topic of offence & defence. My team out stats your's in energy projection on character in this thread besides Norrin can planet bust, Nate is the most powerful TK user, & Quasar can drain or BFR any energy attack. Norrin is the most durable, Quasar has the best shielding in this thread, & Nate can reform so I'm not particularly worried about posting durability feats. But since were on the topic Nate can survive planet busting while KOed & tank planetary energy attacks.

Our battlefield is an indestructible not sure why planet busting feats matter, now unless you mean just the energy he can put out. My team can get through that thanks to defensive phasing, Alan's shields which can compete with Quasar's. I am not that worried by durability either since my team can tank planetary attacks as well. What you haven't countered is the offensive phasing that MMH can dish out, easily incapacitating your team.

What I'm stating it only a telepath can see into the astral plane. Being able to draw on more energy is a energy boost in my opinion, & telepaths can absorb more psionic energy there so it should be no different for Norrin. The is point of me stating that is Quasar can drain Norrin as much as he would like & blast Alan with planet busting attacks.

Now addressing your scan, I'm not new to this so finding context is simple. That scan is from JLA 35 where J'onn takes the team into Jokers mind. Even a feat like that makes J'onn far more vulnerable to attacks. So no J'onn can't physically take his team to the astral plane.

All of my team are telepaths, they can see/detect sense the the plane. And no matter how much energy Quasar and Norrin dish out, Alan can drain/absorb it himself. he can drain the powers of 5th dimensional Imps with no problem.

I have already addressed this context. He can and will.

Nate is using all of his TK to crush H'el's brain not something you can just brush off. An attack on that magnitude is going to take all of H'el TK & concentration to prevent. Not to mention Nate has better destructive TK feats than H'el has defenses for.

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I'm not convinced on this statement. H'el has limited showings yes, but he has shown that he can redirect TK energy fired at him and his TK is powerful enough to harm beings with at least planetary durability.

Once again intangibility won't help J'onn he may control his molecules by attacking his atoms has shown to make him tangible. So Norrin's attack that scatters atoms would work just as well.

The flash was using the Speed force in that scan to vibrate J'onn's molecules/atoms, and unless the SS has the speed force and is vibrating molecules and atoms, that's still not going to work. His attack just disintegrates/scatters atoms which is not the same thing.

What teleporting breaks the laws of physics for of course its FTL, that didn't need to be explained. As for H'el hiding my team has a telepathic link so what Nate knows Norrin knows & Norrin can see souls. Not to mention Norrin perceives nanoseconds, so unless H'el can move faster than a nanosecond Norrin will always see him.

I would like to see the soul seeing, just to be sure, not that I do not believe you,, just want to verify. As for your point even if they can perceive H'El, while fighting MMH and Alan in the mix, it wont be any easy fight stopping him, and nothing is stopping H'El from constantly teleporting him and/or his allies around the battlefield. Don't forget that he can teleport others against their will as well, so he can easily throw your team off balance even with a mind link by disrupting plans, and communication.

Maybe because Quasar stores energy in his bands which are connected to another dimension, or it could be that Alan has no usable feats on par with Quasar. For one he can't use his possessed feats & all he did against Ultra Humanite has contain a blast not drain him.

Yes, but part of your plan is to have Quasar blast Alan, as you have stated multiple times. Look at this scan again. Alan was draining not containing. If he was just containing a blast of Thunderbolt's energy and not draining it would not have been crying out in pain and losing power.

That's currently under discussion. Alan isn't Starheart possessed so you'll have to rely on his standard feats. With that you team has yet to show they can affect my team on the astral plane.

Black Holes are a an ambiguous durability feat at best nowhere near planet busting. You also failed to realize Superman was capable of tank the gravity & he's been KOed by a lot less than planet busting.

J'onn and H'el will definitely still be in this fight for the long run, period. And my team can affect yours on the astral plane as I have stated above. Black holes can consume stars and multiple planets, so I think that at least matches planet busting that Alan can transport a team of people through its mass and gravity. Superman has nothing to do with this besides the fact that he was also protected by Alan's shields.

Still have yet to show your team doing so physically.

Except that I have.

Nates TP allow him to connect minds across the multiverse & I still wouldn't consider him to have universal TP. So I'm not sure why you consider J'onn galaxy level.

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Maybe because as Ihave already shown in my opener that J'onn can feel every mind in the galaxy, scan different realities/timelines and shown here, can summon every mind from Earth to Mars and overrides the Worgolog, a universal-level artifact, to free J'emm from Luthor's control.

Alan nor H'el can match Nate as when shown when Nate loses control of his power simply being on the same planet KO's weaker telepaths. You've shown all of two feats for H'el not even worth mentioning in a telepathic debate.

They don't have to match Nate, J'onn is more than enough. They can just be a solid support to help him overwhelm Nate.

When Nate doesn't want to be found he doesn't have to be. Xavier & Blaeuesmith tried searching for by themselves for weeks. Until they met an used a unique by looking for a blank space. J'onn won't be able to assault my team's minds because for him they don't even exist.

J'onn can detect and find reality warpers who do not want to be found. he only reason he though he couldn't detect and read Dr. Destiny was because he warped reality and swapped places with his dream self, so unless Nate is warping reality which he can't here, J'onn is gonna find him.

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Final Strategy:

J'onn is adept enough of a telepath to perceive, detect, and follow you team to the astral plane while bringing his own team along.

Any energy you dish out at Alan can be drained, or contained by his power, without Starheart possession.

Even if you still do not believe that my team can follow yours to the astral plane, your physical bodies will still be vulnerable to attack from the physical world, trapping your team in the astral plane. With a mind link by J'onn my team will be able to perceive and avoid any attacks from your astral team.

If we forgo a TP battle which is what half of our debate turned into and call that a stalemate, my team still outmatches yours in sheer versatility of abilities, offensively and defensively.

Summarizing all this, My team should be able to win since they can at least match the telepathic abilities of your team, and outfight them outside of that for reasons I have already stated.

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#29 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I don't like to make my CAVs overly long so I am keeping mine to this last post. I'm all done. you can close up and win or lose, I had a fun debate with you. Good Luck.

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#30 Posted by HigherPower (11982 posts) - - Show Bio

woah good job already guys

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#31 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

Rebuttal III

I understood your point just fine, but I think you are trying to separate astral projection from the astral plane when they arent all that separte lets define Astral Projection and the Astral Plane For Marvel, The concept of astral projection assumes the existence of another body, separate from the physical body and capable of traveling to non-physical planes of existence. Commonly such planes are called astral, etheric, or spiritual. Astral projection is often experienced as the spirit or astral body leaving the physical body to travel in the spirit world or astral plane.

As for DC astral projection is the ability allows the character to bring their "astral body" out of their "physical body" in order to do a number of things. Users can separate their spirit from the body by entering a trance, gaining access of travel to the Astral Plane. Experienced individuals may control both the Astral and Corporeal presences.

Almost all TP battles take place on the mental plane, so MMH conducting battles like this and bringing people onto the same plane means he can bring others as well as seen below.

Nope that isn't what I mean, but understandable as it isn't a common ability.

Onslaught learned how to pull psionic energy from the astral plane & accomplish the inverse physically pull characters into the astral plane. But only after Xavier's encounter with Nate as shown above.

Here is Xavier existing on the astral plane & in the physical universe simultaneously

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Here is Onslaught confirming Nate taught him these abilities.

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What I'm stating is while Onslaught learned these abilities from Nate has been capable of doing such since he was a child.

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So with that in Norrin & Quasar will retain all their powers allowing them to combat your team unhindered.

We both have already posted scans from JLA 35 as well, also I am not sure as to why you can't believe they are "physically" there. MMH brought them to the astral plane and then into the Joker's mind to prove a point to the Spectre. I am also unsure as to why you keep stating they are "physically" there, and retain their stats, powers, and feats but then say this:

It feels like you are contradicting yourself here, but maybe you can shed some more light on what you mean.

Mentally yes their minds are on the astral plane but physically their bodies are still in the watch tower as they never left. They can neither affect the physical world nor can they be affected. Their minds have separated from their bodies leaving them vulnerable to physical attacks. But if J'onn can transport matter to the astral plane then they would be assured no one can attack their bodies while they can attack.

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Our battlefield is an indestructible not sure why planet busting feats matter, now unless you mean just the energy he can put out. My team can get through that thanks to defensive phasing, Alan's shields which can compete with Quasar's. I am not that worried by durability either since my team can tank planetary attacks as well. What you haven't countered is the offensive phasing that MMH can dish out, easily incapacitating your team.

Norrin has shown the power cosmic can affect immaterial beings, Quasar absorbing said energy can do the same.

Norrin transmutes Prince of Orphans (John Aman). John is immaterial to the point marvel handbook list his only weakness as capable of being harmed by spirits.

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Norrin has also affected The Other a being of pure consciousness/thought.

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Energy attacks correct. Alan hasn't shown to tank a blast that could kill Norrin or a star exploding as Quasar has so I doubt that.

Phasing won't affect an energy being Nate or a being capable of transmuting himself Norrin. You would have a point involving Quasar but his body is on the astral plane with the rest of his team. Which is physically unreachable to your team.

Norrin makes himself intangible by shifting his molecules.

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Norrin transmutes himself into snow & air then back again.

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All of my team are telepaths, they can see/detect sense the the plane. And no matter how much energy Quasar and Norrin dish out, Alan can drain/absorb it himself. he can drain the powers of 5th dimensional Imps with no problem.

I have already addressed this context. He can and will.

Alan has no feats on par with Norrin's energy output or Quasar's draining. The Ultra Humanite scans are out of context.

I'm not convinced on this statement. H'el has limited showings yes, but he has shown that he can redirect TK energy fired at him and his TK is powerful enough to harm beings with at least planetary durability.

Overpowering Kon is an insignificant feat at this tier. That's well & good H'el can hurt Superman with his TK but that isn't something Nate couldn't do. I've shown Nate can put a crack in the planet, H'el has no feats that impressive.

The flash was using the Speed force in that scan to vibrate J'onn's molecules/atoms, and unless the SS has the speed force and is vibrating molecules and atoms, that's still not going to work. His attack just disintegrates/scatters atoms which is not the same thing.

You can't claim J'onn isn't affected by atomization while acknowledging J'onn has been affected by an atomic attack. I don't even need to argue Norrin attacking on the atomic level as I can go a step further. Norrin will dismantle J'onn's & H'el's atoms by expanding the orbits of their electrons.

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I would like to see the soul seeing, just to be sure, not that I do not believe you,, just want to verify. As for your point even if they can perceive H'El, while fighting MMH and Alan in the mix, it wont be any easy fight stopping him, and nothing is stopping H'El from constantly teleporting him and/or his allies around the battlefield. Don't forget that he can teleport others against their will as well, so he can easily throw your team off balance even with a mind link by disrupting plans, and communication.

I've posted the scan above. Once again my team is on the astral plane so getting to your team only takes a thought since the astral plane isn't governed by physical laws. Teleporting around a planet won't put your team out of range.

Yes, but part of your plan is to have Quasar blast Alan, as you have stated multiple times. Look at this scan again. Alan was draining not containing. If he was just containing a blast of Thunderbolt's energy and not draining it would not have been crying out in pain and losing power.

This is why cropping scans without citing an issue is frowned upon. Ultra Humanite was losing his grip on Thunderbolts power stated in the crop scan you've shown. The reason isn't given specifically since three are given, but we his control loosens enough for Johnny Thunderer starts fighting back. Which gives Captain Marvel a chance to kill him.

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As shown above Ultra was still sending out lightning blast even after the crop scan you've shown.

J'onn and H'el will definitely still be in this fight for the long run, period. And my team can affect yours on the astral plane as I have stated above. Black holes can consume stars and multiple planets, so I think that at least matches planet busting that Alan can transport a team of people through its mass and gravity. Superman has nothing to do with this besides the fact that he was also protected by Alan's shields.

I've addressed the first statement so my position is clear. I guess Norrin has star level durability then since he can fight inside a black hole shielded by his own power.

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That is your logic I'm just trying to follow it.

Maybe because as Ihave already shown in my opener that J'onn can feel every mind in the galaxy, scan different realities/timelines and shown here, can summon every mind from Earth to Mars and overrides the Worgolog, a universal-level artifact, to free J'emm from Luthor's control.

Which one of these feats puts him on par with Nate? Nate transmits his thought across the multiverse scanning for Idris linking her fractured mind in 35 or so different universes. I don't find scanning dimensions or planets impressive when compared.

J'onn can detect and find reality warpers who do not want to be found. he only reason he though he couldn't detect and read Dr. Destiny was because he warped reality and swapped places with his dream self, so unless Nate is warping reality which he can't here, J'onn is gonna find him.

I'm not understanding what you're trying to get at. Are you saying a character must be a reality warper to hide their presence from J'onn? If so there are many instances of lesser characters in power doing exactly that, such as Despero. Despero shield the JLA & JSA thoughts form J'onn. While simultaneously hiding himself from detection.

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Closing

I'm going to sum my strategy up by including all the points that has been discussed.

My team has move the playing field to the astral plane giving them an advantage their opponents can't copy. In doing so they can't be harmed physically as they're in a separate plane of reality. But with Nate power they can attack unrestrained by the new playing field as Nate has shown he can do.

In terms of offensive power my team is far more potent & powerful. Nate's TK destructive capacity exceeds H'el in feats. H'el lacks any destruction feats TK, holding Superman is a good strength feat but it doesn't mean he can bust a moon.

Norrin has planet busting blast & matter manipulation that J'onn nor H'el can counter. J'onn only counter matter manipulation is intangibility which the power cosmic can affect. H'el counter was teleportation which is basically dodging an attack he won't know is coming.

Quasar while only an energy sponge has the best battery to absorb without restriction. Meaning Quasar can output with equal force of Norrin. That is something Quasar has shown to do while fighting an Avatar of Infinity Gauntlet Thanos.

It stands to reason none of the opponents can tank planet busting as no durability feats on that caliber was shown.

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Defensively my team is superior. Nate can hide his team thoughts so telepathy isn't an option. This isn't a question of can stop Nate J'onn from probing his teams mind. Nate, Norrin & Quasar will be a blank space when it come to telepathy. The only chance Join will have at detecting Nate subsequently my team would be if Nate used his power offensively which he doesn't need to do.

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Far as durability is concerned Norrin is the most physically durable character in this thread. Quasar has shields that surpasses any energy attacks the opponents have shown. Nate is an energy being that can reform but he has survived planet busting. Last but not least on defenses is fighting from another plane of reality altogether.

Alan has very little feats shown most aren't even on par with Norrin. But the feats that would be above Norrin (Star Heart Possessed), Alan doesn't have access to. With that there are two feats I'm aware that are out of context both dealing with Ultra Humanite with Thunderbolts powers. The first being draining & the second being contains DC earth's most powerful telepaths. I've shown context for the first but I assumed concession on the second.

Everything considered my team's strategy makes it exceptionally hard for their opponents to preform at their best. There is also nothing shown my team can't counter through feats or overwhelming force.

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#32 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14550 posts) - - Show Bio

TFW you finished your debate before most threads have a post up. FeelsBadMan

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#36 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I feel the same way, that's what happened to me in my other tourney

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#38 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3026 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @mr_ingenuity . This was a very good debate with two very, very evenly balanced teams of powerhouses, but MrIn simply proved that Nate could make his team untouchable and undetectable, as well as show that Norrin + Quasar could simply overwhelm Alan, who is their MVP.

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#39 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#40 Posted by Mideast619 (109 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote @mr_ingenuity. He had the better strategy, that MMH, Alan, and H'el just couldn't respond to.

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#41 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump,

MRI-2

DJH-0

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#45 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh dang I almost forgot about this. I don't know if I can catch up though.

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#46 Posted by D_AeroFlame_Z (314 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try and post by days end

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