He's physical far stronger than Aquaman, using speed or just his might he can destroy celestial bodies
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It goes without saying that Superman would crush Aquaman. Darkseid scales to Superman so not bothering going further.
Here he beats down Darkseid when he stops holding back
Also counts as a speed feat for blitzing Darkseid before he activates the Omega Effect. Superman has a long history of beating the tar out of Darkseid, this fight isn't any different.
Durability
Tanks the collision of New Genesis and Apokolips, two huge planets, and Superman was in the center of it all
Tanks the Omega Effect full on. If it's esoteric powers were effective against Superman, it would have been shown
A very long history of tanking the Omega Effect, and I'll post more if asked.
Heat Vision
Heats up and covers the entire planet earth
Matches Darkseid Omega Beams
Superman has matched or deflected the Omega Beams on many occasions, and I'll show you more if asked. You get the drill, Darkseid gets wrecked, this is nothing new.
Your prep doesn't effect my prep, so the Sun will still be there until my prep is over. Superman will sundip for 1 hour, and when the battle starts he wrecks your team because he has the feats of doing so.
Hal Jordan will be in the next post, and he also solos. Stay tuned!
Darkseid has used exotic abilities, like those you mentioned, about as often as classic Juggernaut used his force-field (not much at all). That said, to act as though his lack of using said abilities in every single battle he's ever been in constitutes "PIS", actually goes against his character as a whole. In fact, he pretty much stopped using those abilities all together after the early/mid-90's or so...
Black Racer is not allowed
Summons should not be above Ironman
Black Racer is a summon, he is well above Ironman in every stat. He isnt allowed, plain and simple.
Your Prep
This sounded like a lot of prep, but it's important for the overall battle. Darkseid is lowballed at times based on a few low showings regardless of the massive number of higher showings. This is easily corrected by making sure he has a full energy supply. Since the planet is indestructible and we want to insure a strong supply, the plan is to bring in Apokolips and consume the sun.
Apokolips is a summon, and Apokolips is a planet, Iron-man would not win 5/10 against an entire planet, especially one as powerful as that. Therefore it's against the rules and banned.
Moving on.
Superman vs Darkseid
New 52 confirmed that all New Gods are "avatars". 52 avatars in 52 universes. Until the comics itself states it, there's no reason to assume all Darkseid's losses were clones. The scan with Desaad only proved that at least one fight was a clone, and we have Dan Jurgen confirmed that Doomsday fought the real Darkseid, proving that as far as a fight is concerned, the Avatar is Darkseid. Whom Superman matched several times.
Counters
Physicals
Kills Superman after Superman.
Gog did the exact same thing, but low and behold, he struggled against the main universe Superman. Darkseid was straight up defeated by the main universe Superman, multiple times.
Goes toe to toe with Anti Moniter
It was mostly a H2H fight, New 52 AM is much weaker and VASTLY changed from Post Crisis to the point where his name changes (Mobius), his feats in New 52 are not impressive TBH. He absorbs "universes" (he really just killed everyone & absorbed the life-force of planets) and still gets physically beaten while having no strength feats of his own.
The images show the shockwaves from the battle between Darkseid and Highfather destroying Old Genesis. New Genesis was the planet created from a fragment of Old Genesis and orbits Old Genesis like a moon. New Genesis and Apokolips are the same size. Apokolips dwarfs Earth 2. DC's Earths have been stated to be a bit larger than real world or Marvel to explain why they have more major cities that are unknown in Marvel or the real world.
The largest moon in our solar system is less than half the diameter of Earth, indicating Old Genesis is significantly larger than it's Planet (Jupiter). That makes this comparable to a star buster feat, and given neither was injured also star level durability.
New Genesis in Post Flashpoint was retconned to be a literal island, no longer a planet like before. Where's the proof that it's still as big as Apokolips (an actual planet)? In fact, I think Wonder Woman even said that the planet that the island-city floats above is "10 times bigger than Earth", that's closer to as big as Uranus, no where near Jupiter sized.
Proof that Old World is still being orbited by New Genesis:
This is one of the most impressive things I think I've ever seen done to Darkseid. Alan Scott was amped by all the Avatars of the Earth multiplied out by the multiversal green. This image shows the power Alan Scot was wielding, not what came after that blow. That power was not enough to stop Darkseid, only slow him down enough to save a few people fleeing the planet. Alan Scot does have the claim to fame for momentarily dropping Darkseid, something the Anti-Monitor failed to do.
Also, if we're giving Darkseid multiversal durability, than Superman punched Brainiac so hard it was felt throughout all universes and the entire multiverse's versions of Brainiac. On top of that, he punched Rogol Zaar hard enough to shake the universe sized Phantom Zone
He has also no-sold doom-spheres.
Hax resistance, not durability
Darkseid can move faster than Superman can see and measures time with the actions he's taking over a microsecond.
Literally the first time Superman had met DS, who looked like a slow brick. Darkseid knew he was Superman not Clark Kent, so he purposely took him offguard.
If there is any question about whether or not the feats provided are actually star level or not, I would add that his size alteration will get him there as well.
How many times did he use this ability in fights?
Omega Effect
The Omega Effect is what really makes Darkseid who he is. It's also been shown to transferable to other individuals after his death, such when Lex Luthor became god of Apokolips.
The typical use is the omega beams. These are a casual planet buster blast at the very least.
A single beam (so half power) one-shot Superman. Superman could withstand the Sun while forging the Hellbat armor and technically survived a black hole. That scaling also looks comparable to a starbusting feat.
Superman was very young and inexperienced back then, a full grown Superman tanked it outrightand and then matches him in energy projection
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Darkseid had split the beams up and demonstrated Superman and Flash could not outrun them. Flash had to phase through a target to get his blocked and was out of breath.
Everyone was young back then, it was the first Justice League comic where everyone met each other
Wally West and Barry Allen had the same issue where neither could outrun the beam. They were explicitly going light speed and the beams were catching them, demonstrating without a doubt that the Omega Beams are FTL.
There's more proof that Flash is faster than there is that he's slower. Even Powergirl can do it
That's without going into the BFR options. The beams are known for their destructive power, but they also BFR anywhere in time or space. BFR is obviously against the rules, but that doesn't mean battlefield manipulation isn't if it comes down to it.
He'd be too distracted to try anything extra, Superman has a history of matching and defeating him
Telekinetically tosses Orion and Mister Miracle, plus pulls Stein out of the Firestorm Matrix. Telepathically controls three million Daxamites. Transforms Slobo into a statue. Disintegrates Kalibak. And a goodie...
A show of dominance but not an attack, how would that work on Superman or Hal Jordan, Pre-Crisis and an Alternate Storyline (not canon), Superman has resistance to matter manipulation: http://imgur.com/a/eX4IS, and Kalibak is a pathetic weakling who was fodderized by someone physically comparable to Wonder Woman (Grail)
Counter's against my post
The first image even shows Desaad was disguised as Darkseid to explain away losses with an image of Superman in the pic. The other explanation is avatars being weaker than the original to the point some significantly powerful being might be able to defeat that small portion of his power.
Already covered this. The true form isn't even physical, its energy and cannot have the satisfaction of punching Superman. There is no "true form' in this fight is there? Because iirc, Superman defeated that form by literally singing
The third explanation would be not being at full power, which has continues to happen up in through Rebirth if a person checks out his storylines in Wonder Woman and JL: Odyssey. I can give more detail or scans if you need for that.
Darkseid was explicitly weakened to the point where Cyborg stalemated him. Superman fought regular Darkseid, who was not explicitly weakened.
My prep was chosen to ensure Darkseid is in his peak showings instead of his low showings by making sure he has had plenty of energy to consume.
Your prep includes breaking the rules.
Not to mention the obvious PIS/WIS demonstrated by Darkseid not using his full arsenal of abilities in those fights. GG.
His hax abilities were soft-retconned in the mid 90s, he basically never uses them even when hes bloodlusted.
Superman obviously doesn't have the stand alone feats to compare with Darkseid's feats and because of the explanations for his previous losses you would need to demonstrate by feats instead of direct losses. "Superman stops holding back and can take Darkseid" simply doesn't cut it.
If we go by feats, captain Marvel would fail to even tickle Superman and the latter would oneshot him. But the comic shows them being EQUAL and even has Cap winning at times. Fights matter almost as much as feats. Context matter as well.
Aquaman and Superman have both been depicted at various power levels. Aquaman's feats against Titus, the Starro blast, Martian Hunter, and Olympian clearly show at his best he's been near to Superman level opponents even if he's been stated to be not as strong or fast as Superman. I can spam you with scans to back this up but I think I covered it in my quick opener.
Prove it then. Only reason Aquaman gets any hits is because Superman allows him to, because he has morals. Even Supergirl fodderized him in convergence
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Superman also isn't consistent with the level you are portraying. For example...That's a struggle with the Earth's core, and not the worst part of it (to which he's trying to get closer). You aren't going to argue Superman is holding back his durability for some reason. I'm willing to bet I can find far more lower showings than you can on the level you are trying to portray. Not that it matters, because prep included merging Aquaman with the Black Racer. This increases his already impressive stats.
Narration dictated that ONLY Superman could purform this feat. Aquaman, for example, would die immediatly. Superman was tanking the full brunt of gravitational forces that were destroying the planet earth, all while withstanding heat and pressure greater than the surface of the sun, AND while carrying 5 miles long metal objects (something Aquaman could never do).
It's neither a low showing or a high showing
I refuted those fights but also wanted to add that I demonstrated Darkseid moving faster than Superman could see in my opener. Surely your argument wasn't that Superman was holding back in his perceptions there.
Yeah he is. When Superman isn't ready, his perception isn't always lightspeed 24/7, he has to adjust like when he is fighting the Flash. No way he could had predicted Darkseid would be fast for his size.
That's not as good as Darkseid destroying the larger planet both were created from with a shockwave from the real fight or his own durability in surviving the battle that created the shockwave. Old Genesis destruction >>>>>>> the collision of two smaller planets.
Superman tanked the actual planet New Genesis, Darkseid burned and lifewiped the Old World stated to be "10 times as big as earth" by Wonder Woman.
Solid area, for sure. I don't recall he ever repeated it so it looks like an outlier, but even so all it did was warm things up. It's spread out enough it's not really damaging.
The point is that he's planetary in scale. Hard to dodge.
Those images were from Darkseid War after Darkseid was force grown from a newborn infant by Grail, who was controlling him at the time. An adult body of a newborn infant controlled by someone else doesn't demonstrate those omega blasts were the full force omega effect. Meanwhile, I can also post more scans where he failed to resist the omega blasts or effect as well.
He had the powers of Alexander Luthor and Shazam, as well as all the others Grail made him absorb. Definitely an amped Darkseid.
The heat vision and beams meet up. That doesn't show they match. The fact they are meeting up closer to Superman indicate the opposite is true. In order to prove matching up you would need to show something more prolonged than a casual background image in Wonder Woman's commentary of the battle.
It would be a more reasonable claim if you demonstrated the ability to destroy Wonder Woman's bracelet's with Superman's heat vision, like the Omega beams have.
That was Grail's Omega Beams
or matched the Anti-Monitor like Lex Luthor did with them and only a portion of Darkseid's power.
Given that Lex Luthor is taking on the Anti-Monitor with a portion of Darkseid's power it's no wonder Mobius needed prep and to consume Earth 3 etc when he planned on taking on Darkseid.
The actual Darkseid also matched Anti-Monitor. Luthor>Darkseid? The amps the JL had were of varying degrees.
Speed
Awesome. Except that encounter demonstrated Superman is slower than Wally West and Barry Allen. and the Black Racer is consistently faster than the Flashes. That link also shows the Flashes phased through Darkseid at those speeds to avoid the omega blasts because those are also faster than the Flashes.
Superman is faster than Darksied, and the Black Racer is not in this battle.
Backhands a speedblitzing Superman. Plus, Darkseid can cross the universe in a blink. Plus the feat I gave with Darkseid moving faster than Superman could see earlier.
That was before Superman let loose and inevitably blitzed him.
Not really. God of Strength Superman absorbed the solar energy in the Apokolips fire pits. These are stated (as shown) to be the most powerful solar energy in existence, which is better than going sun-dipped. Yet amped Ultraman had one shot God of Strength Supes away only to be defeated by Anti-Monitor.
It was not a regular sun amp, it was literally killing him and breaking his molecular structure: https://imgur.com/cvpfkLv.jpg
Darkseid doesn't scale to Superman. Darkseid scales to the Anti-Monitor. Or maybe the Anti-Monitor scales to Darkseid based on the battle between Mobius and Luthor. Maybe if Superman stopped holding back so much he could solo the Anti-Monitor? ;-)
Naw, he definetely scales to Superman
Superman's showings against Darkseid are easily written off when the writers already reconned past showings, gave reasons like avatars, and used obvious PIS/WIS/CIS in not using telepathy, matter manipulation, size alteration, etc in such encounters.
Addressed that already
Why would that be true? There's no reason to believe my shield of the Sun disappears in order for you to use it. Even if it did, it's been being drained for a week. Before Superman gets to it. Hardly seems worth it. This is more likely the scene.
Because then you are affecting my team without even being there. You could just as easily turn the sun red somehow, or into kryptonite if you have the powers. I thought we are in different clone universes until we are transported to the same universe.
So, I didn't see any feats to resist telepathy given. Or matter manipulation. Or soul manipulation. Or any other hax I can present.
Don't need it, Darkseid never uses those things in fights.
I will add that Darkseid can create and fight through avatars as needed, caps the summon limit with parademons (fodder here, if not for the block on the sun), and Apokolips has massive tech available for use here.
He IS an avatar if he's in physical form.
It's still a stomp for Darkseid.
nope
Introducing: Hal Jordan
First let's see how powerful a random fodder Green Lantern is:
Some random fodder GLs can match and tank planet busting attacks from Evil Star's starbands), and a rookie GL Jessica Cruz lifted ⅛ the mass of a planet (1.5e23 kg) while only using 38% ring power and while being in the crushing gravity of a supernova ready to explode,
An average Green Lantern is herald level at the very least.
Moving on, because this will come handy later when you find out just how much above the average Lantern Hal Jordan is...
Hal Jordan is extremely powerful, the only guy in the Justice League (in my opinion) that is as powerful as Superman (or even moreso). In fact, Hal Jordan is the most powerful Green Lantern to ever join the Corps, at least as powerful as a Guardian of the Universe.
For example, Volthoom says he's more powerful than the entire Central Core Battery:
The Central Power Battery contains the will of every creature in the universe.
Hal tanked an all-out attack from the planet Mogo, supplemented by the full might of the entire Green Lantern Corps, several hundred strong:
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Hal Jordan is more powerful than the entire Green Lantern Corps combined. He has fought a future Parallax Hal Jordan, who had the might and power of 3600 Green Lanterns! The entire Corp, including the Guardians!
But guess who won the fight? Hal Jordan went full willpower and sent Parrallax running for his life
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Full Willpower Hal Jordan > Parrallax Hal Jordan >= Renegade Hal (with Krona's Gauntlet) > a Guardian = Hal Jordan > the entire Corps
Hal actually does kill a Guardian, BTW, an extremely powerful one named Krona...
Current Hal Jordan is comprised entirely of will (Uh-oh for your team), and created his own ring with his own willpower:
That is a feat only the GUARDIANS are capable of doing. Again, Hal Jordan is as powerful as a Guardian of Oa, far beyond that of a regular Lantern.
Knocks off the jaw of the Spectre who was further amped by being a Black Lantern
He is capable of KO'ing Superman in a short amount of time (this was Post Crisis Superman who was only half as powerful as Rebirth Superman. After Rebirth, Superman grew so strong that even Hal was KO'd by him)
Also a speed feat, Aquaman could never hope to blitz Superman and KO him
Superman has planet+ to star level durability, as you already know from fighting Darkseid and tanking a black hole
In fact, Green Lantern Hal Jordan casually destroyed two Sun Eaters, huge moon-sized living machines that feed off all energy and literally eat stars (as their name suggests). His energy projection is easily star level in order to overload their absorption and kill them.
Yes, Hal Jordan is ridiculously far above planet busting tier, to the point where when Kyle Rayner got Hal's ring, Hal's residual power leaking through was going to destroy the entire HQ (which is the planet Mogo).
This is the level of power that your team has to deal with. How unfortunate..
In Rebirth, all it took was Hal Jordan and 2 fodder GLs to produce an entire freaking star, luring it away
So yeah, Hal Jordan is OP. There is no question in my mind that Aquaman would be oneshotted by him. I believe Hal Jordan could even take on Darkseid if he has to, at least hold him off for a few minutes, but his job right now is making sure Aquaman is dead
Another thing, telepathy.
Aquaman used his TP on regular rings. Hal's ring is different from all other GL rings, it's his and it's literally Hal himself.
Thus, Aquaman's ring tactic would not work. On the other hand, Hal Jordan can directly attack portions of Aquaman's brain in order to neuter that hacking/TP ability and lobotomize him
And Aquaman's telepathy only works on creatures that directly evolved from aquatic ancestors. A Martian is effected by such telepathy, but a human or a Kryptonian isn't affected. In the scan, it said "everything that ever swam or crawled in the ocean depths", and it showed sea creatures and Atlantians, but not land creatures. The intent was clear. Another scan you showed was about spreading fear throughout the Earth, and if it isn't obvious that wouldn't work on Hal Jordan. In order to become a Green Lantern you have to have the ability to overcome great fear, it's a prerequisite for the job. And the most fearless man in the DC universe is none other than Hal Jordan. Parallax is fear incarnate, and Hal defeated him.
There's nothing Aquaman can do against a bloodlusted Hal Jordan, he's screwed.
I don't think I need to make a conclusion, you already know what they are. Superman breaks Darkseid's face, and Green Lantern vaporizes Aquaman along with whatever ocean he's in
The ''A Holds back a exploding star'' feat from New Frontier isn't cannon, I've forgot where I saw it, but are you sure it is? sorry if is btw @xlr87t3
@thehercules: Well, it's not your job to tell whether something is canon or not, it's my opponents. It's not even your job to comment in this thread. My scan is canon, but you are trying to help my opponent, so I would advise that you delete your comments
@emperorthanos-: @xlr87t3: The post is up. I did not want to go to votes because my opponent sandbagged responses to my first post and his opener to GL so there was no opportunity to respond to either prior to this post.
I didn't sandbag anything. Let's go to votes now, put it to rest
@ashrym: I'll respond, don't worry. Hal Jordan and Superman alone has so much to cover, they deserve their own posts. I didn't intentionally sandbag you, it was just for the sake of time
@xlr87t3 Sorry about before, I was wrong about the scan (and not trying to help Ashrym), I was an ass arrogant person as well. Really sorry. I didn't meant that!
First off, no amount of lowballing/highballing will ever result in Darkseid losing to Superman in a real/fair match. Ashrym proved that many times and in multiple ways, despite XLR claiming that Superman beats him on a consistent basis by using showings that exclude context or are plain PIS. Darkseid is consistently shown to be a teambuster, including against the entire JL, of which Superman is a part of.
Second, Ashrym's prep/plan seemed legit to me, and well within the rules. Rather than try to counter them, XLR just tried to ignore them by saying they are not allowed.
Third: I think Ashrym highballed Aquaman a bit, but I think XLR highballed Superman and Hal Jordan wayyyy more. I know he feels very strongly about Superman, but the feats are just not there to put Superman on the level XLR puts him on, at least not on a consistent basis.
Overall, Ashrym had a vastly superior team because of Darkseid, stronger arguments, stronger counters, less highballing/lowballing, and a better plan. Not that XLR did badly, Ashrym just did much better. My only issue with Ashrym was him presenting dozens of new feats in his last post; however, XLR did only present his second character in his 2nd post, so I can't totally fault Ashrym for that.
This was a fun debate to read! Great job to the both of you :)
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