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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

The Semi finals of the 2nd edition of my high tier pyp tourney.

Participants

@zetsumoto

Characters:

  1. Loki Laufeyson (6 pts)
  2. Oz Vessalius (3 pts)
  3. Erza Scarlet (1 pts)
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Perks:

  • 1 hour prep (1 pts)
  • Perfect Teamwork (5 pts)
  • Light Speed for Oz (7 pts)
  • Spider Senses for Erza (1 pts)
  • Spider Senses for Oz (1 pts)

Versus

@chimeroid

Characters

  1. Pre 52 Darkseid 7
  2. Arion 5
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Perks

  1. 2 more points 5
  2. perfect teamwork 5
  3. Hour of prep x2 2
  4. 1000 S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents 3

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than 616 spider-man.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 50

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#4 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

who is arilon?

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#5 Posted by Vertigo- (17497 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#6 Posted by Sly_141 (3216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by deactivated-5790531b876c9 (519 posts) - - Show Bio

Well...T4V.

@emperorthanos: Can I really vote? Some CaV's kind restrict the users by the number of posts.

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#9 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@nariaxavor: There doesn't seem to be a post count rule. Just give some solid reasons, and I don't think anyone will mind.

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#10 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

@nariaxavor: I don't have that rule in my tourneys. As long as you vote properly, I don't have a problem with it.

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#11 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I thought you were joking, I didn't think you actually wanted that picture.

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#13 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: What's wrong with the picture? BTW isn't this round 3/semi-finals?

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#16 Posted by deactivated-5790531b876c9 (519 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by SupremeGeneration (10615 posts) - - Show Bio

This one seems pretty interesting. T4V, I'm going to be keeping my eye on this...

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#18 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: What's wrong with the picture? BTW isn't this round 3/semi-finals?

just never mind. and yes my bad

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#19 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by deactivated-5790531b876c9 (519 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by OldKaiser (2900 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by deactivated-5790531b876c9 (519 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@youngkaiser: lmao lose? Impossible. One of his guys wears a skirt. How tough can he be?

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Oh...
Oh...

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#25 Posted by deactivated-5a5a6b5b2407e (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

Chimeroid's setup is lowkey deadly, tag.

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#26 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@kanataroc said:

Chimeroid's setup is lowkey deadly, tag.

Oh yea? Well mine's Loki deadly too!

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#27 Posted by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by OldKaiser (2900 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@jucaslucasa: See, Loki's already tricked one person into offing himself!

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#30 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: @chimeroid

I guess since my team is listed first, that means I go first. I'll have a post or at least a draft up later today! =)

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#31 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: not really. It's up to you guys to decide who goes first.

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#32 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I feel like that's the most fair way to determine who goes first. I mean everyone wants to go second xD

Besides, he hasn't said anything in this thread, so he probably doesn't feel like making his post any time soon.

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#33 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: @chimeroid

Fighter: Titania

Moving on doesn't mean you forget about things. It just means you have to accept what's happened and continue living.
Moving on doesn't mean you forget about things. It just means you have to accept what's happened and continue living.

Powers:

  • Magic Swordsmanship
  • Requip Magic (Pocket Dimension filled with magic items)
  • Telekinesis
  • Superhuman Physicals
  • Arsenal of Magic Armors and Weapons
  • A Magic Eye That Can See Through Illusions
  • Has been given the Spider Senses perk

Basic Lore:

Erza Scarlet, also known as Titania, is one of the most powerful members of the wizard guild known as "Fairy Tail". Her specialty is manipulating magical armor and weapons which she stores inside a pocket dimension. Each set of armor gives her a completely different set of magical powers. Her ability to instantly swap between various weapons and armors at her disposal, gives her a massive amount of versatility allowing her to completely change her fight style at a moments notice. The power and durability of her weapons and armor is directly linked to the power of her own magic energy. She will be serving as my team's main eye candyfighter.

A complete list of the various items she has can be found here: http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Erza_Scarlet

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Thief: Oz

I don't really like people who go around brandishing the banner of justice. No matter the reason, whenever humans are involved; there is no black or white, no good or evil. There is only our will.
I don't really like people who go around brandishing the banner of justice. No matter the reason, whenever humans are involved; there is no black or white, no good or evil. There is only our will.

Powers:

  • Can create and manipulate bladed chains
  • Turn into a giant sentient rabbit plush toy
  • Flight
  • Telekinesis: Casually stopped a bullet mid-air without removing it's inertia (When he released it, it went forward again. He can also reverse it's motion. Technically a form of time manipulation, and thus will not be used. In Pandora Hearts One Shot he was referred to as the "one who governs time")
  • Destructive Power (Conceptual ability)
  • Can erase/destroy memories (He doesn't just make you forget. He completely shatters your memories, and they can only be recovered through special means. Unless you can travel through dimensions, it's safe to say your memories are gone for good)
  • Can sever magical bonds
  • Can cause an earthquake by tapping the ground with his scythe
  • Regenerative Abilities (His human form can survive getting shot in the head, and can quickly recover from numerous sword slashes. His Abyss form has never had it's regenerative abilities tested to it's full limits; however, Cheshire Cat (one of the few beings close to Oz's equal) survived having the top of his body obliterated by Mad Hatter)
  • Trickster Hero
  • Scythe Mastery
  • Comes from a place where time itself has an unnatural flow (any normal being in such a place would end up instantly aging forwards or backwards into oblivion. Oz being born there, is completely immune to the time warping effects. He's also immune to the soul degradation that happens there. He can even navigate it despite it constantly changing)
  • By simply whispering into someone's ear, he can cause their muscles to shrivel as they visibly lose strength and willpower.
  • I have given him the "Light Speed" perk, which applies to travel, combat, and reflexes.
  • I have also given him the "Spider Senses" perk

Basic Lore:

Once upon a time a man asked God to give him a weapon capable of plunging the entire world into the abyss. She gave him Oz...

Though he grew up believing that he was a normal human, Oz is what is referred to as a "chain". He is a creature born in the abyss, the great nothingness, that all universes exist inside. It's a cosmic dumping ground for all the negative energy left behind by every soul in the multiverse that enters the reincarnation cycle. Oz however, is different from other chains. Rather than simply being born from the residual energy rejected by the reincarnation cycle, he was created and imbued with power from the White Queen herself. The White Queen serves as the host for the Core of the Abyss. Essentially the Core is Pandora Heart's version of god, "the presence", or "MOM". It is an ancient entity responsible for creating the entire multiverse, and it usually remains dormant while the White Queen does as she pleases.

The cosmic power that Oz has been imbued with has given him the power to destroy things through physical contact, shattering it like glass (characterized by a bright white light). What makes Oz truly dangerous however, is his ability to channel the power through his scythe and chains allowing him to cut through absolutely anything. His destructive power operates strikingly similar to that of a Creation Blade perk, which one could have purchased 10 perk points (equivalent of 4 character points) and given to any character regardless of their typical power level. Unlike that of a Creation Blade however, the damage caused by a strike from Oz's blade can be used to spread throughout your body reducing you to little more than a cosmic sand/dust. Furthermore, as the destructive power comes from Oz himself rather than his weapon, the power can be applied in ways that a mere owner of a "creation blade" could never dream of.

So far, Oz's power has been used to, shatter memories and tear holes in the fabric of reality; allowing him to brute force his way into a room that exists outside of time itself. It has also sever the invisible, intangible, chains that hold reality itself together; causing the human world to plunge into the abyss. He has even used his power to mercy killed the girl that was acting as the vessel for the Core of the Abyss, aka creator of the multiverse. He even managed to cut off her tentacles when she suffered a mental breakdown and turned into an Azathoth-esc Lovecraftian monster.

The Reason He is only 3 points:

Despite his massive power, Pandora Hearts is not a battle manga. As most of the story focuses on psychological horror and character development, Oz's physical stats are completely undefined. His durability is untested, and there is very little evidence of his speed being any higher than that of a solid FTE bullet timer. As such, I was forced to spend 7 whole perk points on light speed just to make him a viable character. Without that speed perk, Oz would have issues taking on most of the 1 point characters in this thread. EmperorThanos had read one of my earlier CaVs involving Oz and this was the point level he suggested due to Oz's lack of physical abilities. Oz is essentially a high street leveler/low mid-tier character with massive hax-powers that allow him to take on cosmic beings. With his massive power and (currently) glass cannon physicals, he will be serving as my team's "assassin" character.

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In the above scans, Oz demonstrates: chain Manipulation, a protective/destructive field, dimensional destabilization, and the ability to cut even a nigh-omnipotent multiversal entity

His Intellect:

In addition to his abyssal powers, he is also a highly intelligent trickster who has manipulated numerous powerful beings in order to achieve his goals. Here is what TV Tropes had to say on the character:

Throughout the series we get glimpses of Oz's perceptive and deductive nature, though he usually hides it behind a childish facade. It really stands out towards the end, when Oz manages to correctly predict the thoughts and actions of Oswald, the Baskervilles, Jack, Alyss, and the Core, and make a plan to save the world based on manipulating and utilizing all of them (along with a Chekhov's Gun briefly mentioned in a single throwaway sentence dozens of chapters ago) during just those few hours spent recovering at Lutwidge.

Mage: Loki

You ask me why I did what I did? Ask, rather, why the serpent Nidhogg eats the roots of Yggdrasil -- Why, when the tree's death means, in turn, the dragon's ruin? Because, Thor, I keep telling you -- That is what it was born to do .
You ask me why I did what I did? Ask, rather, why the serpent Nidhogg eats the roots of Yggdrasil -- Why, when the tree's death means, in turn, the dragon's ruin? Because, Thor, I keep telling you -- That is what it was born to do .

Powers:

  • Superhuman strength, speed, durability, intelligence, and skill
  • Asgardian Physiology
  • Energy manipulation
  • Size manipulation
  • Shape shifting
  • Invisibility
  • Intangibility
  • Elemental manipulation
  • Summoning
  • Illusions
  • Replication
  • Telepathy
  • Hypnosis
  • Teleportation
  • Telekinesis
  • Strength sapping/transfer
  • Soul transfer
  • Astral projection
  • Binding/cursing/enchanting/spell breaking
  • Clairvoyance
  • Transmutation
  • Animation
  • Healing
  • Resurrection
  • Temporal manipulation

The Basic Lore:

Loki is the Norse god of mischief, and one of the most powerful magical beings in existence. His knowledge of the mystic arts has said to rival even the likes of powerful multiverse entities such as Dormammu. Loki has a massive variety of powers, far too many to cover in a single CaV. As such, he will be serving as my team's main mage and support character.

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The above contains examples of his fights with one of, if not, Marvel's most powerful sorcerer. Note, that while it's true Strange was a bit green during the depicted events; Loki himself performed most of these feats while in his astral form which is stated to only contain a fraction of his true power.

Prep Time:

While a single hour of prep may not seem like a lot, the present conditions of the battle will allow me to accomplish far more than one might expect. As my team has the "prefect teamwork" perk, Loki has full knowledge on his allies strengths and weaknesses and exactly what buffs they needed to maximize their power. Before we get to that, Loki will start by creating copies of himself allowing him to multitask in order to maximize our use of the prep:

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Our first order of business will be hiding from any prying eyes:

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Next, Loki will begin enhancing both the physicals of other characters and amplifying the powers that they already have. He can even grant them powers entirely from scratch. He has a history of taking street level characters and turning them into THOR level threats. Here is just one example among many:

The earliest example of Loki empowering someone is Sandu, a low level mutant, whose power Loki amplifies a "thousand times." Before, Sandu was merely capable of figuring out what lay in people's pockets. Afterwards, he is capable of forcing Thor to his knees, levitate and teleport entire buildings, and use world-wide telepathy which Professor Xavier describes as "unfathomable." Originally presented inJourney Into Mystery #91 and re-presented in Thor: First Thunder #3:

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He would have no problems granting Oz and Erza powers such as teleportation and global telepathy. He'd also give them near-Thor level strength and durability, and buff them with a wide variety of protective magicks. Oz's metaphysical powers are well beyond what Loki can amplify. Erza on the other hand would benefit quite massively from such enhancements as her magical items are directly linked to her own magic power; by amplifying that her prowess as a wizard and telekinetic she would easily become a top tier sorceress even by Marvel standards. As I have the perfect-teamwork perk, Loki has absolutely no reason to hold-back when buffing his allies. He can even amplify some of her artifacts themselves:

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Furthermore, as Erza is already considered a highly talented sorceress, he'd be able to bestow her with a wide variety magic powers separate from her sudden boost into high-tier powerhouse territory. Perhaps the best indicator of the types of powers he could bestow her, would be those he granted to Sylvie Lushton. A sorceress created entirely from his magic:

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To further compliment her powers, he'd also be capable of summoning a variety of weapons and artifacts such as the limbo axe or his fire-sword:

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Just to further drive in the level of physical stats Loki is more than capable of giving Oz and Erza:

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At the same time as the above, one of Loki's copies will also utilize his clairvoyance to spy on your team. (Note that Loki is not the only one with clairvoyant abilities on my team).

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Loki can even see your history utilizing Clairvoyance:

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Noticing the enormous amount of Shield Agents backing your team, Loki will prepare fodder of his own to keep the occupied when the battle starts:

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Since your shield agents were bought with perk points and are legitimate members of your team as opposed to mere summons, your perfect teamwork will apply to them. As such I should be able to gleam quite a bit of information by scanning their minds. It would be basic knowledge at least, if not full knowledge out right. Especially if he uses his clairvoyance to look into their past as well... I have already shown Sandu's global telepathy after being buffed by Loki. Scanning the minds of 1000 shield agents should be child's play for any of my team-members. I find it unlikely your team would think to ward their minds, and even less likely that you'd actually be capable of doing it to all 1000 of them.

Our final order of business will consist of laying traps and weaving spells to halve your power. This will not go into effect until the battle begins. During my CaV with DarkRaiden he covered the planet with power nullification seals. EmperorThanos ruled that I was not allowed to do anything about it until the battle started:

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We will then gather at a strategic ambushing location. Somewhere secluded where the Loki clones will have room to maneuver.

Logistics:

Operation Divide and Conquer:

Now that we have prep out of the way, lets get to the actual battle strategy. Since I know you are already aware of Oz's ability to scramble omniscience and future-sight, I won't go too in depth. To the voters:

Oz is especially hidden from precognition, as he is one the 3 red-eyed chains (Oz aka B-Rabbit, Mad Hatter, and Cheshire Cat) imbued with the Core's power. This gives him attributes similar to that of the Children of Ill Omen, humans who have been imbued with distortions from the Core (also characterized by their red eyes), and he has even been mistaken for one at various points in the story. This makes them a complete blind-spot to omniscience and precognition. The Jurors are cosmic beings who each rule their own universe. They exist outside of time itself and exert complete control over the events their respective worlds; writing it's events the way an author would write a story. They fear the Children of Ill Omen however, as the Children are complete blind-spots, foreign to their stories and capable of breaking the fates that are supposedly set in stone. A Child of Ill Omen managed to stand in the same room as a juror for an extended period of time without her noticing.

The Core of the Abyss (creator of the multiverse) is also completely omniscient, as it records all memories and events throughout the multiverse both past, present, and future; yet she was unable to predict that Oz would force his way into her room. This power also extends to the people around Oz, as he was able to bring numerous people with him and she was incapable of predicting it:

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As you can see, the creator was shocked at the sudden appearance of Oz and a group of soul-reapers forcing their way into her room.

In other-words, as long as Oz is here, your team will be incapable of predicting our actions ahead of time.

Now for the part where we separate your team:

Most of your agents will probably get caught in the various magical traps scattered throughout the map. For the ones that aren't, they will be kept busy by the demon crows and empty armor knights.

Since we already have some decent knowledge on your characters, Loki will know which one of your characters is a sorcerer and which one isn't. Since we'd suspect that the sorcerer might have counters to a forced teleportation we will set our sights on Darkseid. Loki will start by swap teleporting with Darkseid. This will allow us to engage both Darkseid and Arion at the same time, thus keeping them from regrouping. Loki's copies will stay with Oz, while Erza will teleport with Loki to provide backup.

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Loki's ability to force teleport his enemies has shown to work on extremely powerful cosmic beings such as the Silver Surfer himself, among others:

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While Silver Surfer is by no means as powerful as Darkseid; Silver Surfer is known for his mobility, spacial powers, and ability to control his position in the universe. Though Darkseid has teleportation abilities himself; I highly doubt that Darkseid would be capable of cancelling the teleportation. Especially since Darkseid has a history of getting BFRed via Boomtube (in multiple different media):

Darkseid is driven out when Cyborg activates the invaders' Mother Boxes and Superman forces him through a Boom Tube. The issue also reveals Desaad and Steppenwolf, referring Darkseid's daughter and their ceaseless search for her across countless worlds.

Even if Darkseid did have the ability cancel the teleportation, would he? I mean after all, Darkseid is known to be very cocky. He enjoys a good brawl, and likes doing things himself. He'd most likely see the coming ambush as a challenge he's willing to accept. Since Arion has no way of predicting such an attack, he'd have no way to stop it either, even if he could. While I do have a backup plan incase the above does not work, I will avoid posting it right now, so that I don't overwhelm you with things to address.

With the above in mind, the fight has no broken up into 2 separate battles that will be happening simultaneously:

Loki and Oz vs Darkseid

As soon as the swap teleportation goes through, the Loki clones will immediately reveal themselves and barrage Darkseid with a combination of energy drain and binding spells. These spells will be prepped and set to go off as soon as Darkseid appears:

Note: He also has a wide variety of other methods to bind Darkseid such as telekinesis, ice magic, and so on.
Note: He also has a wide variety of other methods to bind Darkseid such as telekinesis, ice magic, and so on.

Strength Sap:

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He is even capable of draining people of their god-hood. Darkseid happens to be a god.

As Darkseid has already had his strength halved through prep and is now also getting his power drained by the Loki clones; the above binding spell should be able to hold him indefinitely. At the very least, it should hold Darkseid more than long enough for the; teleporting, light-speed, Oz, with spider-senses, to sneak in for the kill. As said before, Oz has the ability to destroy "anything". This is not a no-limits fallacy. It's an attribute given to him directly by the Pandora Heart's equivalent of TOAA/Presence. The only being that Darkseid has encountered with power from such a source is the Spectre, and we all know how that fight turned out:

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Now, I am by no means attempting to claim that Oz = Spectre. After-all, if you put them next to each other; Oz is little more than a 1 trick pony. However, that 1 trick Oz does, he does WELL, perhaps even better than Spectre, as Oz's destructive abilities are a true hax as opposed to simply throwing more force. Spectre may dwarf Oz in the versatility department, but it was clear in the above fight that he did not need to make full use of that over-stuffed power-set in order to win. The fight turned into a straight brawl that as far as I am aware; lasted no more than 2 panels. Everything that Spectre did in that fight, Oz is capable of replicating in some form or another. If Spectre is capable of overpowering the Omega Beams and redirecting or blocking it; then Oz, who derives his power from a similar source, is more than capable of destroying the beams through physical contact as he did in the following scans:

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Note: the above was performed in a heavily depowered state where overusing his destructive abilities caused physical pain. By the end of the story he no longer had these limits, and would be fully capable of rushing through the beam juggernaut style

I proved Oz could handle the Omega beams purely because I could. In all actuality, he would never have to do it in the first place. This is a straight assassination mission. No gloating, no posturing, no introductions. Oz is cloaked and going straight for the kill. Darkseid won't be able to react as he is still under the binding spell. Furthermore all of his attention will be drawn by the swarm of Loki clones. If he is to use his Omega Beams it would be at the pests swarming around him.

While the ability to completely destroy someone's existence is in fact listed as one of the Omega Beam's properties, I am finding a lot of conflicting information on the subject. From what I have seen, his Omega Beams have been tanked on several occasions. The only conclusion I can draw is that the power of the Omega Beam's are either inconsistent, or it's simply not in character for him to go all out:

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Since he clearly doesn't just delete every character he faces, I doubt he would do so in this scenario either. Since he'd most likely see the Loki clones as little more than a nuisance, he probably won't go all out; in which case, the clones should be more than capable of tanking the blasts with their forcefields:

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Even if they die from the Omega beams it's okay. They are just copies. On the off chance that Darkseid does manage to break free of the binding spells, the Loki clones would be more than capable of fending him off:

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As you can see above, Loki's clones are strong enough to hold off the likes of Surtur himself. Surtur is well above Darkseid, and more comparable to that of Trigon than anything. Providing a simple distraction, in order to create an opening for Oz, against the likes of Darkseid should be child's play. Once the opening is created, all Oz needs to do is teleport in and end the fight. Remember Oz now has light-speed and spider-senses. Darkseid is not known for his speed. Yes, he does have solid reaction timing and feats of reacting to characters he has no business being able to react to; but so do a lot of street levelers. Darkseid might be able to react to Oz, but by mixing chain attacks along with his scythe swing; Oz would able to limit Darkseid's mobility and end the fight. Of course Darkseid has never been known for dodging in the first place:

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The fact is, in close range it's unlikely Darkseid would resort to dodging or Omega Beams. It's far more likely he'd resort to his signature bitch-slap that I posted above earlier. After-all, he has no reason to assume that Oz would be able to one shot him Spectre style. The problem is, with Oz's scythe and true form, he has a solid reach advantage. Even if Darkseid was capable of slapping him, he'd only lose his hand to the destructive field. Darkseid has no chance of winning this battle. Don't get me wrong, Darkseid is powerful, however Oz hard-counters him pretty easily under present conditions. In fact, Oz would probably have a tougher time with the likes of Wonder Woman or Superman than Darkseid, despite them being far weaker.

Bottom Line:

  • Oz should be able to end the fight before Darkseid is free of his bonds
  • Oz is more than capable of defeating Darkseid in a 1 on 1 confrontation simply because of the way their powers interact.
  • Even if Darkseid escaped his bonds, all of his attention would be focused on the Loki clones
  • Oz has a speed advantage, power advantage, reach advantage, numbers advantage, and the element of surprise.

Loki and Erza vs Arion

While Oz and clones are dealing with Darkseid, Loki and Erza will be dealing with Arion. Now I am no Arion expert, but I'd imagine that Loki cost more than him for a reason. As soon as Loki teleports in, he will cast an instant distraction spell:

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Erza will also teleport in to join the fight:

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With the combined assault of Erza, Loki, and the rock trolls; the team should be more than capable of winning through brute force:

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If that doesn't work, Loki will very quickly switch to trickery just like he did against Bor, a skyfather level opponent:

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This is not the only instance of Loki's illusions managing to fool powerful magic-beings:

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The above will be especially effective with a near Thor-level, Erza (with spider-senses) putting pressure in close range. Don't forget that despite her warrior fight style, Erza herself is a highly talented sorceress who is also quite skilled in spotting the flaws in her opponent's magic:

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If any agents attempted to interfere with the fight, they would simply get transmuted into toads much like Enchantress did in one of the scans posted earlier.

Since I know you like to boast how Arion's mind-control magic is separate from telepathy and thus cannot be blocked by conventional means, I'd like to point out that Loki too is quite versed in mental magic and has powerful resistances. After receiving buffs from Loki, Erza herself should also be quite resistant to mental magic. Even if Arion could control her, it's unlikely he'd be able to pull it off while getting tag-teamed in such a way:

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All in all, Loki and Erza would adopt a sword and sorcerer style of tag-teaming. It would probably be quite similar to that of Loki's usual partnership with Thor before their falling out. Unlike Thor however, Erza is capable of swapping out armors at a moments notice; allowing her to completely change up her element and fight-style in order to adapt to her current opponent.

Bottom Line:

  • Loki should be more than capable of defeating Arion on his own
  • Loki and Erza would be complete overkill
  • Erza may be a 1 pointer, but with Loki buffs she can easily match 3 pointers and beyond.
  • Even if Arion had a shot at winning, there is no way he'd pull it off before Oz finished his own relatively short match. If Oz joins the fight, his fate is completely sealed.

Conclusions:

All in all, our teams were formed around a rather similar formula. We both paired a powerful sorcerer for utility, with a cosmic being for offense. Unfortunately for you, my particular set up happens to counter much of what made yours so powerful. You said it yourself, the main reason you have been able to breeze through the tournament is by combining Future Sight and Omega Beams. Well, my team has ways to counter both, and their own methods of powerful offense. Furthermore, by exploiting your perfect teamwork and shield agents perks; my team should have far more knowledge on your guys, than yours do on mine.

Before Chimeroid attempts to introduce a super plan of his own; I'd like to remind voters that at the start of the match Arion will be busy trying to undo Loki's strength halving spell, and thus will be rather hard-pressed for time. My team is well hidden, so it's unlikely he'd be able to set up any prep that we'd have to address immediately, and we are going on the attack as soon as the match begins.

Oz may be a three pointer, but that's only because a lack of defined speed and durability feats held him back. By investing 7 perk points (roughly the equivalent of 3 character points) into boosting his speed; I have essentially made him into a 6 pointer. Throw in Loki buffs, and he's well into 7 pointer territory. In other-words, Oz is more than capable of throwing down with the likes of Darkseid and beyond. Your set up was effective, but mine made far better use of the points allotted.

Kneel before Oz!
Kneel before Oz!
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#34 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#35 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Chimeroid (9175 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Will post when i get the time, right now a lot of Real Life is happening to me so i can't quite manage.

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#37 Posted by Chimeroid (9175 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto:I really have only little time so i will copy my informational part from the previous debate

Team: Defenders of the Title

Darkseid:

Surely you see the futility of the task you've set for yourself? The utter impossibility of beating me? I am invincible. I am Darkseid!

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Born of the royal family of Apokolips, Uxas is the younger son of Yuga Khan and Heggra. As the tyrannical ruler of the planet Apokolips, Darkseid's ambitions is to find Anti-Life Equation, with which he intends on conquering the universe and eliminating all free will.

POWERS

Physicals

Even though he rarely fights in hand to hand combat Darkseid has physical stats superior or comparable to the best of the DC Universe.

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1. Strength: Subdues Superman with 2 casual punches 2. Speed: Can do a lot in a microsecond (one milionth of a second) 3. Travel: "Unimaginable" (keep in mind New Genesis and Apokolips are millions of times bigger than Earth. (will explain with pic "5") 4. Durability: Lobo hurts himself when he punched DS, DS didnt even flinch 5. Explanation of the size of New Genesis and Apokolips

Energy Projection

Darkseid best known attack. The Omega Beam. Most usually channeled from his eyes or eyes of his avatars. Omega Beam is Darkseids ultimate weapon. It can disintegrate, transmute, teleport or resurrect his targets based on his desires.

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1. Disintegrates Lobos' body 2. Transmutes Cyborg Supermans body back from being a ball (he turned him into a metal ball without the OB) 3. Teleports himself Granny and Desaad to his lab 4. Can create an avatar of his head capable of using OB wherever he wants

Telekinesis

Easily capable of holding multiple super heroes at bay using his TK

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Definitely showing planetary level TK here.

Intellect/Creations

Even though most people don't appreciate this enough on the Vine Darkseid has a super genius level intellect which will definitely come in handy while prepping for this fight.

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1.2.3. He beats the Monitor in a strategy game while manipulating superheroes as pawns, he beat him so hard the Monitor didn't even realize he was a piece on the board. 4. Creates a machine capable of draining the life force of new gods, and quickly.

Mind control

He rarely uses it but he is capable of some incredible feats.

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Mentally dominates Superman and Martian Manhunter respectively

I have a lot more feats for Darkseid but these will have to do for the opener

Arion:

Kill me if you can, Beast... Kill me -- before this blade drinks deep of your own foul blood!

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Arion is the son of two Atlantean Gods born more than half a million years ago. His father was Calculhah, a force of good, and his mother was dark Majistra, a force of evil. Arion is one of the Greatest Mages of DCU with enough power to put down the likes of Etrigan or Superman with ease.

Spells:

It would be certifiably insane to list all the spells he can use so i will just keep to those i feel necessary for this debate(some other feats will be in the later part of the post) . Also, as i know you (and hopefully our voters) have read my previous debates i will try and find alternate scans with same spells just to mix it up :D

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1. Uses his future vision to get so much detail he created the entire Power Girl persona out of it. Entire history of Krypton and Superman was found out. 2. Creates a forcefield that held Power Girl and then paralized her. 3. Mind controls New Gods saying they are nothing to him. 4. Casually burns Etrigan.

Perk fodder:

1000 SHIELD agents

Paraphernalia

Equipment: Various including: A.N.C., Beta-cloth, kevlar body armor, jetpacks, teleporter, psi-blocker, Hover Discs, Neutro-Mist,

Weapons: Plasma pistols, needler pistols, various conventional firearms (.30 caliber machine pistol standard issue.)

To elaborate. ANC are airborne Nano cameras that my team can spread around stopping any surprise attack in its tracks.

Beta cloth and Armor to stop damage from fire and projectiles.

Psi- blockers - This will be very important in relation to your opening strategy as you proposed Loki using TP on 1000 soldiers.

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S.H.I.E.L.D. agents commonly have Psi Shields "installed" by their telepaths to be resistant to mind reading.

Counters:

Oz being immune to future sight: (voters, please follow the hyperlinks in this part)

This is a statement you are yet to truly prove. First of all, there is nothing to prove The Core of the Abyss is actually omniscient. Yes, it is a macrocosm (a small representative part of the entirety of a whole) of the universe and it has vast powers, but it isn't stated to be completely omniscient or having passive future sight in that regard. All the information in Pandora hearts is in Tales and written in the Library.

The Core of the Abyss would never need Jurors to observe the multiverse if it was truly omniscient/omnipotent/"omniwhateverthehellyouwanttoclaim". And while we are at Jurors, you claim they are "writers" of their stories, which is not true. They are "Observers". And yes, they have incredible powers, but as we all know by now. CILO are immune to that.

Furthermore, you claim his "immunity" comes from the fact he is similar to the Children of ill Omen - and the reason they have that ability is because Pandora Hearts universe functions differently, the reason Core's are able to peek into the future is because it is based on "tales" and CILO are not parts of that tale.

To quote the wiki -

"Children of Ill Omen exist outside of the natural order of the Abyss."

"because Children of Ill Omen are not planned components of "the story" (her mold of the dimension's events), they will disrupt and ruin "the story" simply by existing."

Furthermore, i am yet to see the proof the Core was trying to see him when he sneaked up on her. I mean, claiming he is immune to future sight like that is like claiming Deathstroke is FTL since he hit Wally and Superman. You need proof she was trying to look into his future in a way that wasn't just reading the "story' or the "tale" and that she was unable to do so. You would also need to provide a feat of the Core successfully looking into the future etc.

Stretching the shit out of an hour of prep and Loki:

I mean, you have one hour of prep dude. I don't think Loki would manage to do all of those things as quickly as you claim. I don't want to argue on which of those you get and which you don't right now, just, kinda, contain your claims.

To prove you can do all that you need 2 proofs. 1 - That his clones have all the powers he has. (which makes no sense, as they are definitely weaker than him) 2. That he wouldn't spend a lot of time doing all of the things you listed. I mean you posted feats of clone creating illusions vs Thor from Avengers #1. Which Thor effortlessly blew away with Mjolnir and stomped Loki. But Cropping scans is a nice way to make out of context scans seem viable. Let's show the voters the full page:

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Your traps and weakening spells- Once more, you have only one hour. And Loki said himself, in your post, that he took extra prep time to weave weakening spells. And how many traps would you be able to set in 1 hour? Also, i too have prep. In fact, i have more prep than you do. Setting traps where my team is simply won't happen as it would be attacking before the prep time is over. (just imagined loki coming to darkseid to dig a hole under his feet)

Oh, and the limbo axe thing is not his standard gear, he took extra prep then to get his hands onto it. Prep you dont have here.

And NOW - The fact that Loki gets tired by using a lot of his magic:

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In the fight from which you took the scan of him trying to take on Surtur we can see that he needs a lot of power to create actual clones (non illusions) and that he needed to recharge after a couple of minutes of fighting Surtur. And it is worth noting that he was using his clones for this tactic to avoid getting smacked by Surtur so he depleted his powers solely by creating clones.

Forcefully teleporting Darkseid:

Interesting idea. But Darkseid is actually really, really good at teleporting around. And he doesn't even need boom tubes for that. (And btw, the instance of BFR by justice league is Post Flashpoint Darkseid and i am using pre and post Crisis Darkseid here.)

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Oz B Rabbit No Limit Fallacy.

It is a fallacy to claim it can cut through anything. As we have seen it can destroy things from Pandora Hearts, but which of those things have Planetary level durability? (and pls, do provide feats).

Your comparison of Oz to Spectre is ridiculous. He is nowhere near that level of power, and while we are at it. Core of the Abyss is nowhere near the levels of power portrayed by the Presence or TOAA.

Your sentence is literally "If Spectre can do it, so can Oz" and it makes no sense. In fact, it is utter bull's feces. Not to mention Spectre didn't overpower and redirect omega beams. He survived them and proceeded to destroy Darkseid with a blast of his own.

As far as Oz's powers go, they are clear as day disintegration and Darkseid actually has feats of withstanding disintegrating attacks.In fact, he has feats of withstanding his own Omega Beams:

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And since he has tanked his Omega Beams you will need to prove Oz has more impressive abilities in order to actually defeat Darkseid with them.

MY PREP

Well, i am yet to see why Arion wouldn't be able to use his powers and find out everything about them as you have nothing to defend their past, and then, since your future protection feats are weak at this point also look into the future to see what you are planning.

With that in mind there is a plethora of things my team can prep out to help them win. SO let's get into it.

Darkseid amping Arion: Darkseid has amping feats that DWARF those of Loki's. He has literally taken a random woman and given her powers on a multi solar system level and turning her into Stayne. Aside from that one, he gave Necromina the power over life energies, including abilities to drain life, or create undead, he gave his son Kalibak psi beams and even served as a power source for Mary Marvel (and many, many more instances.)

Shields, Shields, Shields - as in all of my debates, my team will be protected by shields of Magical, Omega and Technological nature.

Trap - Darkseid is capable of saturating the air with invisible Omega Rays and choose when to activate it's properties. He did it against Forever People

Arion amping himself with trinkets - Arion has a Cthulhu type form which was capable of overpowering Superman.

Using Apokolyps technology to arm SHIELD agents - Gravy guns, Lazer weapons capable of hurting Orion and many other weapons Apok has to offer. Doesn't sound like a lot, but should be enough for a 1000 of agents to handle Erza and some of the clones.

Avatar creation - as we know Darkseid can create avatars of himself that contain a portion of his power and does so commonly.

Your conclusions:

Before Chimeroid attempts to introduce a super plan of his own; I'd like to remind voters that at the start of the match Arion will be busy trying to undo Loki's strength halving spell, and thus will be rather hard-pressed for time. My team is well hidden, so it's unlikely he'd be able to set up any prep that we'd have to address immediately, and we are going on the attack as soon as the match begins.

Not sure i should be super worried about this honestly. First of all, he halved the powers of Thor, someone who is considerably weaker than Darkseid so the same amount of weakening wouldn't have as much of an effect. And also, the amount of amps from my team vastly overshadow the nerf you will apply. Even if he manages to do it i see my team outright being able to ignore it and still be more powerful.

My conclusions:

Well- Omega Beams -you reply to them is "Spectre survived them, Oz must too", but that doesn't hold water as it is powerscaling based on, well, nothing. Your other reply is "i have clones to serve as a shield for my team" but Darkseid has feats of OB-ing vast amounts of enemies in a single blast. Dreggs, or parademons feats provided. Third claim "My team is hidden" - That has flaws as well, not only it is not as well hidden as you/they believe since Arion will use future sight. But Darkseid can send out seeker Omega Beams that he tends to use when he doesn't know where his opponents are.

Now, i have a lot more to offer, as i am sure you do too, but let's play it DBZ style and power up only when needed :D

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#38 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

Shield Agents:

To elaborate. ANC are airborne Nano cameras that my team can spread around stopping any surprise attack in its tracks.

Your airborne nano-cams are going to cover the entire planet, and warn you of a surprise attack from a bunch of invisible teleporters? Teleporters who have hidden from massively powerful beings like hell lords (while in their own dimension) and so on? (Not to mention two of them being light speed, with the third still being pretty damn fast)

Beta cloth and Armor to stop damage from fire and projectiles.

Yea, this is a high tier tournament, and my team is very haxed.

This will be very important in relation to your opening strategy as you proposed Loki using TP on 1000 soldiers.

I'll start by pointing out, that no part of the strategy hinges on my ability to read "all 1000" of them. You have the perfect teamwork perk, which means every single agent should have a decent amount of info on your leaders (Darkseid and Arion), and how they operate.

S.H.I.E.L.D. agents commonly have Psi Shields "installed" by their telepaths to be resistant to mind reading.

How common is "commonly". Commonly certainly doesn't sound like "standard issue" which is what it would need to be to convince me that all 1000 of your soldiers are going to have it. It would be child's play for Loki to scan them until he finds people who have not had it installed. Aside from that, what are the feats of these "psi-shields"? I mean after-all, Loki isn't just one of marvel's most powerful telepaths, he's also one of Marvel's mystical telepaths. I'm going to need to see some feats of it blocking telepathy on this level. Hell, I'm going to need to see feats of it blocking magical telepathy let alone magical telepathy of this level. I mean we are talking about the same guy who has had mental duels with the likes of Odin:

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Yes he did lose the above, but if he could beat Odin in a straight fight he'd be far too powerful for this tournament.

Oz's Immunity to Future Sight:

lol you seemed to have had a different opinion during our last conversation. =P

It isn't stated to be completely omniscient or having passive future sight in that regard

Yes. Yes it is. All events and all memories; past, present, and future are already recorded in the abyss. The abyss itself exists outside of the timeline of various dimensions and human worlds, so everything has already happened. All these events are passively observed, in fact that's part of what makes the abyss so dangerous and volatile to those that cannot resist it's effects. Simply entering the abyss can cause you to see visions of various events that happen. Sometimes it's the past, sometimes it's the present, sometimes it's the future. Sometimes, it's visions of other worlds entirely.

Note: he did not have the powers of B Rabbit during this scene nor did he have it in the future he was viewing. He saw that the reapers didn't know that and were going to kill him to get rid of B Rabbit; so he hatched a plan to take advantage of this that would lead to him getting the powers back.
Note: he did not have the powers of B Rabbit during this scene nor did he have it in the future he was viewing. He saw that the reapers didn't know that and were going to kill him to get rid of B Rabbit; so he hatched a plan to take advantage of this that would lead to him getting the powers back.
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In fact, it seems pretty heavily implied that the entire reason the Children of Ill Omen happen is because of the Core's desire to break the tedium of knowing everything.

The Core of the Abyss would never need Jurors to observe the multiverse if it was truly omniscient/omnipotent/"omniwhateverthehellyouwanttoclaim".

The core does not "need" the jurors. Asking why the core has the jurors is like asking why the Presence has angels. Hell, it's like asking why a God would create anything at all.

The Jurors do not observe the multiverse for the Core. They do it for themselves to add to their own library of knowledge which they use to create more stories that are unique and different from the ones that came before it. They can't even interact with the Core. The only ones who were freely able to interact with the core before it took a vessel were the Children of Ill Omen, and that's only because they had part of it's power inside them. Again, the jurors can't touch the Children of Ill Omen much less the core itself. This is heavily influenced by Cthulhu mythos. The jurors are essentially outer deities in the style of "Nyarlathotep" and the "Court of Azathoth". They are all part of a single court (hence why the are called jurors), and in their own dimensions they act out the court's will. Meanwhile The Core is more a representation of Azathoth, the creator of everything, that tends to remain dormant while the court does it's own thing. Here one of the characters runs through theories on why the jurors do what they do, notice not one of his theories involved the need to observe things "for the core":

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while we are at Jurors, you claim they are "writers" of their stories, which is not true. They are "Observers". And yes, they have incredible powers, but as we all know by now. CILO are immune to that.

They have used both writer and observer as terms to describe themselves; though perhaps editor might be the best term to describe them. They each have power over their respective worlds and govern the events that happen within it. This is confirmed in one of the very quotes you used:

"because Children of Ill Omen are not planned components of "the story" (her mold of the dimension's events), they will disrupt and ruin "the story" simply by existing."

Notice that it says "her mold"? The jurors see themselves as all powerful beings. They can't stand that an outside force can interfere with the stories they create, and so they seek to get rid of them. Pandora's Juror has described numerous different things she's done to make her story more "unique". Hell, the entire reason the courtroom appeared was for the jurors to argue about whether or not jury should end the story or continue it. They decided to end it, because another story was continued in a manner that they deemed "too similar". The Jurors decided the that the story would end, and Oz broke this fate by saving it.

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Oh look, one of the jurors mentions rewriting the story.
Oh look, one of the jurors mentions rewriting the story.

the reason they have that ability is because Pandora Hearts universe functions differently, the reason Core's are able to peek into the future is because it is based on "tales" and CILO are not parts of that tale.

I wouldn't say it functions differently. For one, all stories are "tales" hence why we are able to read them. For two, marvel and DC are also openly acknowledged in plot as being nothing but stories. You can see it with characters such as "Mr. Mxyzptlk" as an example.

The whole "tale" thing doesn't actually change how things work. The Jurors are these all powerful abstract beings who are beyond human understanding. The reason they refer to the worlds as stories is to hit that cosmic horror theme that PH has been playing off of. It's to show just how small we are in the grand-scheme of things. To show that the entire world is about to end for the sake of drama because it's seen as nothing but a "story" like one we'd write ourselves.

Overall, stating that they are "stories" is just a fancy way of saying that the future has already been written. Perhaps there have been multiple versions written, but it has already been written nonetheless. Children of Ill Omen on the other-hand; can, with their mere presence, branch stories in ways that have not been written, and that is exactly why they cannot be seen with any sort of omniscience or future sight. Future sight only works if fate exists, even if there are multiple fates. Children of Ill Omen are immune to fate. That is the entire reason the Jurors despise them:

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Furthermore, i am yet to see the proof the Core was trying to see him when he sneaked up on her.

Right before he appeared, she specifically said that no one was coming. Why would an omniscient being have to "try" to see anything? I am not going to sit here trying to track down scans to prove every little plot point. Not everything is told in singular hammy exposition scenes.

You need proof she was trying to look into his future in a way that wasn't just reading the "story' or the "tale" and that she was unable to do so.

Seeing the future is seeing the future, and I have shown far lower beings can see the future as well. The fact of the matter is, the Core of the Abyss exists separately from the timelines of various dimensions. One can enter the abyss and leave it in a completely separate time period. Glenn for example traveled backwards in time in order to try to change the past to prevent the events that led up to the world ending. Everything has already been recorded, and the Core has complete control over time in the multiverse. The Will of the Abyss (the vessel, as in not even the core itself) has even went so far as to overwrite timelines:

http://pandorahearts.wikia.com/wiki/The_Intention_of_the_Abyss

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The "Stretched" Hour of Prep

First off, I didn't crop the images. Those are the ones I found in the respect thread.

I'll start by addressing the time issue. Loki is extremely fast. An hour of prep may not seem like a lot to us, but to someone who perceives time at his speeds it may as well be several days.

In the following scan, Loki shows that he can activate his spells "at the speed of thought":

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Now here is how fast Loki thinks:

Here he manages to intercept and divert radiowaves after they have been sent out. Radio-waves are light speed.
Here he manages to intercept and divert radiowaves after they have been sent out. Radio-waves are light speed.

With the above in mind, Loki would have no problems performing the prep within an hour, even without clones.

Just for good measure, here are some of Loki's other speed feats:

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Clone Strength:

First off the scan against Thor is an extremely early one. Those were certainly not the same clones that were able to take on Surtur. Secondly, a small fraction of Loki's power is still IMMENSE. There is another instance in which Loki is at a "fraction" of his true power; his astral form:

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Furthermore, we know that the clones are still extremely powerful, because they are capable of causing even the likes of Surtur pain:

Notice how he blocks the blast with his hand, and still had a pained expression on his face?
Notice how he blocks the blast with his hand, and still had a pained expression on his face?

How powerful is Surtur? Galactic in scale:

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Since Loki is able to replicate magic blasts powerful enough to cause someone like Surtur pain, there is no reason they wouldn't be able to replicate Loki's other-lesser spells. Even the above scene is a fairly early showing of Loki. He has gotten far more powerful since then.

Your traps and weakening spells- Once more, you have only one hour. And Loki said himself, in your post, that he took extra prep time to weave weakening spells. And how many traps would you be able to set in 1 hour? Also, i too have prep. In fact, i have more prep than you do. Setting traps where my team is simply won't happen as it would be attacking before the prep time is over. (just imagined loki coming to darkseid to dig a hole under his feet)

Where are you getting this "extra" prep time? He said he weaved the weakening spells ahead of time in case Thor ever returned to Jotenhiem. That is all. In regards to the traps, I never said that I would do it where you are. I said I would put them at strategic locations. Given Loki's speed he can set quite a lot in one hour. Since the traps are for your fodder they don't even need to be that powerful. When the battle begins you are obviously going to spread your fodder out to try to locate us. Furthermore, Loki knows how to hide himself. It would not be an "attack" unless the traps are activated on your team before the battle begins. In any case, both of the above are really minuscule parts of my plan.

the limbo axe thing is not his standard gear, he took extra prep then to get his hands onto it.

Yea, he prepared for it. Then after he prepared for it, he was able to summon it from a completely separate dimension. That's kind of like claiming a policeman's gun isn't "standard equipment" because they had to 'prepare' by receiving one in the first place. Once again, it doesn't even matter that much to my plan as a hole.

In the fight from which you took the scan of him trying to take on Surtur we can see that he needs a lot of power to create actual clones (non illusions) and that he needed to recharge after a couple of minutes of fighting Surtur. And it is worth noting that he was using his clones for this tactic to avoid getting smacked by Surtur so he depleted his powers solely by creating clones.

Um, no. He wasn't tired because of the clones, he was tired because he was fighting Surtur for "seemingly endless minutes" (that is a lot more vague than the "couple" that you are trying to lowball it as). It even says so at the top:

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Loki and the clones weren't just "dancing around" doing nothing.They were actively blasting him with immense amounts of energy, and the clones got taken out by the twilight sword. The fact that he lasted so long against a hell lord as powerful as Surtur, is what's impressive, and again these are "early" showings.

Modern Loki is able to solo the Disir while barely using his magic:

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Darkseid's Teleportation:

First off, did he actually teleport away, or did Darkseid simply cancel an avatar? Either way, it doesn't really give much to go on. Silver Surfer is also quite good at teleportation, but as I showed in my scans earlier, not even he could resist Loki's powers.

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Also, you completely ignored the characterization aspect of my argument. Like I said, even if Darkseid "could" break Loki's teleportation spell, would he? I mean the guy likes fighting. He would most definitely see the trap as a challenge, and purposefully walk right into it to prove he could overcome it. I mean we are talking about the same guy who mouthed off to a bunch of muggers, despite being completely depowered:

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Oz's Destructive Power:

As we have seen it can destroy things from Pandora Hearts, but which of those things have Planetary level durability?

I already showed him cutting a multiversal entity. He's also able to cause the end of the world itself simply by cutting the invisible, intangible chains that separate the human world from the abyss.

This would have been the entire human dimension, if the Baskervilles didn't have the power to repair the chains.
This would have been the entire human dimension, if the Baskervilles didn't have the power to repair the chains.

Durability doesn't matter, because his power doesn't work through raw force, it's a hax ability which by definition bypass conventional means of defense. His power is an attribute that allows him to destroy things on contact. Physical durability is the wrong resistance to try and tank it with.

He is nowhere near that level of power,

You are right, he isn't. Like I said, he's a one trick pony in comparison. However, that one trick he does, he does "extremely" well; as it's a hax ability comes from the same type of source as Spectre's own abilities. It's an ability that allows him to destroyanything and it was given to him by the highest authority a story can have.

and while we are at it. Core of the Abyss is nowhere near the levels of power portrayed by the Presence or TOAA.

Okay, first off. Both the presence and TOAA have rather limited showings, much like nearly every character fitting that archetype that has ever been written. Secondly, it created the "entire multiverse". That is the be all end all of feats. Once you get to that level, things like physical durability become entirely meaningless. Once you are on that level, the world is essentially nothing but code. You can assign whatever stats or attributes to whatever object you feel like doing. If you want something to be stronger than a planet you can make it so. If you want nothing to be that durable, you can make it so. If you want something to be able to destroy anything regardless of it's durability, you can make it so. The fact of the matter is, Oz's power can destroy anything, that is an attribute assigned by the highest authority any setting could possibly have.

Even barring the above, this "feats or it can't happen" mentality is rather narrow minded. Feats > Logic > Statements. The lack of a feat is not the same as a negative one. If it's logical that a character is capable of something then there is no reason to assume he can't just because the feat hasn't happened yet. Pandora Hearts is not a mainstream comic or battle manga. It does not spit chapters/issues out one after another with the focus on constantly escalating fight scenes.

While a writer should always know exactly what their character is capable of; they are under no obligation to post extreme end feats for the sole purpose of proving it. A character may be capable of operating on a massive cosmic scale, but that does not mean there is a place for those kinds of scenes within the story. The scale of Oz's powers intended by the author is very clear, and the fact that Oz is capable of destroying anything is something heavily woven into the narrative. In fact the entire plot revolves around it. We do not need to see massively escalating battle sequences to know that the above is true. This is not Saitama who hits things with an undefined amount of physical force. This is a character who has a very specific type power with clear mechanisms behind it. A mechanism of which your character has no defense against.

I understand what you are getting at; however, it's simply unfair to judge every story by the same standards you would a comic-book. This not some massively long running series. Oz doesn't have decades upon decades of showings against other characters with decades upon decades of showings. In fact, most characters do not have that luxury. The lore/narrative and it's logical implications are what we have to go on. To someone who mainly reads comic books, this may not seem like much. After-all, you are used to characters who's stories have been running for decades; often appearing in different issues with different writers, who each have a different idea of how powerful he should be. Of course when you have such a huge plethora of showings (many of which will contradict the narrative set out by a previous author), things like narrative and logic are going to seem inadequate. For shorter more plot heavy stories those 2 things have a LOT more weight to them. In fact they are exactly what the writer expects you to go on.

This situation reminds me of a quote that a buddy once linked me:

No Caption Provided

Obviously the above isn't entirely identical to our current debate, but there is definitely a similar theme going. Much like the person he is arguing against, you are suggesting that if the writer randomly decided to come out with a scene in which Oz destroys someone who survived a galaxy busting attack that he suddenly becomes someone that powerful, as opposed to have simply been that powerful the entire time. The fact is, everything about the narrative suggests Oz is capable of it, even if it hasn't been shown.

As far as Oz's powers go, they are clear as day disintegration and Darkseid actually has feats of withstanding disintegrating attacks.

Oz's powers are FAR more than simple disintegration and Darkseid has the blatant negative feat of failing to withstand a disintegrating attack put out by a character backed by a similar power source to Oz. Oz has cut holes in reality (ones that would have caused the world to unravel if not repaired). He's crumbled entire dimensions, and damaged a multiversal entity. He's even shattered souls and deleted memories. A simple disintegration based attack would not be capable of those feats.

Not to mention Spectre didn't overpower and redirect omega beams. He survived them and proceeded to destroy Darkseid with a blast of his own.

No, he very clearly overpowered them:

No Caption Provided
  1. Darkseid fires the Omega beams at the girl.
  2. Spectre appears and redirects them.
  3. Darkseid shoots spectre with the beam
  4. Specter cries out in pain.
  5. Darkseid blasts him again.
  6. Spectre pushes through the beam itself

He overpowers them twice in those events.

Obliteration aside, it's still a scythe moving at light speeds and backed by Thor level strength (due to Loki buffs).

Prep Counters:

Darkseid amping Arion: Darkseid has amping feats that DWARF those of Loki's. He has literally taken a random woman and given her powers on a multi solar system level and turning her into Stayne. Aside from that one, he gave Necromina the power over life energies, including abilities to drain life, or create undead, he gave his son Kalibak psi beams and even served as a power source for Mary Marvel (and many, many more instances.)

Multi-Solar System is certainly impressive, but Loki has held his own against more powerful beings, even when by himself. I already showed his feats against Surtur and Odin. I showed you how powerful Surtur is, here is how powerful Odin is:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I have also shown him defeating Bor through trickery. The same Bor who in a crazed state (also caused by Loki) took on an Odin-force Thor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhbTL-jQajk

He has even bested on the god of death Seth, in his own dimension, and after getting ambushed:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Here he even wrestles with Dormmammu

No Caption Provided

Here he breaches Galactus's barrier:

No Caption Provided

Above all, Loki isn't doing this alone. He has an amplified Erza on his side. As I have already shown, characters amped by Loki have been capable of standing toe to toe with Thor. Perhaps the best comparison of what a Loki amped Erza would look like would be Stormcaster:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Erza already has all the equipment necessary to simulate storm-caster's abilities. The only thing missing is enough raw power to match the above. Which Loki can provide.

However, unlike Stormcaster she is not bound to a single element. Combine that with her natural speed (and the added spider-senses) and arguably she could take down Thor himself. Together, they should have no problems taking on an amped Arion. At the very least they would be able to hold him off for the amount of time it would take Oz to one shot Darkseid. Once that happens, Oz will join the battle with any remaining clones; and again, Arion's fate would be sealed.

Loki is especially likely to survive, as it takes far more than physical attacks to kill him. That's something Arion wouldn't know:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Trap - Darkseid is capable of saturating the air with invisible Omega Rays and choose when to activate it's properties. He did it againstForever People

That's nice, but Oz is just going to burst him while completely invisible. Knowing Darkseid, he'll probably monologue a little before even trying to break Loki's binding spells or kill any of the clones. A light-speed, teleporting Oz would easily be able to blitz him when cloaked. Furthermore, the particles would get destroyed by Oz's field.

Arion amping himself with trinkets - Arion has a Cthulhu type form which was capable of overpowering Superman.

Wouldn't the scale of Darkseid's amps simply trump Arion's trinkets? Overpowering superman is impressive, but isn't Superman vulnerable to magic? In any case, it certainly doesn't beat Loki's feats against Surtur, Bor, Odin, Seth, and so on.

Using Apokolyps technology to arm SHIELD agents - Gravy guns, Lazer weapons capable of hurting Orion and many other weapons Apok has to offer. Doesn't sound like a lot, but should be enough for a 1000 of agents to handle Erza and some of the clones.

Darkseid carries enough weapons to arm "1000" shield agents, as part of his "standard equipment"? In any case, they would have their hands full with the summons and traps. Any that try to interfere with the Arion vs Loki/Erza fight would die in the AOE or end up like this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Avatar creation - as we know Darkseid can create avatars of himself that contain a portion of his power and does so commonly.

As far as I am aware, Darkseid has never used an avatar in this way. Find me one instance in which Darkseid has fought alongside his avatar. Hell, find me one scan in which Darkseid has used an avatar to fight two battles at once. Avatars are not clones, he even says as much right here.

No Caption Provided

Avatars are used to as a representation of oneself when you are unable to appear in person. He's never used it as a clone before, so I see no reason why he'd use as one right now. On that note, I have heard a lot of conflicting information in regards to how powerful the "true" Darkseid is. A lot of people seem to say that most of Darkseid's showings are in fact, nothing more than avatars; and that the true Darkseid is actually some super-powerful universal+ entity. In which case, your 7 point Darkseid is NOT the true Darkseid at all, rather just an avatar.

Your Statements:

First of all, he halved the powers of Thor, someone who is considerably weaker than Darkseid so the same amount of weakening wouldn't have as much of an effect.

You realize that when you "halve" someone's powers, the amount that gets reduced scales to the person you are "halving". Right?

And also, the amount of amps from my team vastly overshadow the nerf you will apply. Even if he manages to do it i see my team outright being able to ignore it and still be more powerful.

lol what can I say? Your characters really would think that way, and it's that kind of hubris that would get them killed.

Conclusions:

  • Oz is immune to your precognition.
  • Oz can put down Darkseid.
  • Loki and Erza are more than powerful enough to hold off, or even beat an "amped" Arion.
  • Oz's fight with Darkseid will be a relatively short one, and it won't be long until it becomes Loki, clones, Erza, and Oz ganging up on Arion.
  • My team has eye-candy, and yours doesn't, so mine wins by default. (This one always wins the voters!)
No Caption Provided

Overall, I feel like your recent post was a bit rushed. Maybe it's only because you didn't have enough time, but it kind of seemed like you just swung as hard as you could hoping to get a hit.

Now, i have a lot more to offer, as i am sure you do too, but let's play it DBZ style and power up only when needed :D

I know you are joking, but I'd like to point out that I don't really enjoy an overly lengthy back and forth. I prefer to end my CaVs in 2 posts each. If you have something major that you want to put out in your next post, something that I will absolutely have to address; then by all means do so. 3 posts each are still reasonable. That said, going past 3 posts is where I really start to lose my interest, so please throw everything you have in your next post so that our 3rd set can be final clarifications/rebuttals and nothing else.

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#39 Posted by Chimeroid (9175 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: Wow, i see a decent sized scan dump and not a single one that proves the Core is omniscient.

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#40 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: @chimeroid:glad to see this is still going.

For now the winner is going to be facing PCB but his team will be slightly stronger which Zets already knows.

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#41 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid said:

@zetsumoto: Wow, i see a decent sized scan dump and not a single one that proves the Core is omniscient.

I am not sure what part of the power to control all time and selectively rewrite history doesn't = omniscience (not to mention, I have well established the mechanisms behind Oz's abilities and why you wouldn't be able to use precognition on him). In any case, depending on your next post; I may decide to request voting.

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#42 Posted by Chimeroid (9175 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: i haven't read the manga, but reading the Wiki it says that the Core never created the multiverse, but that it exists as a macrocosm of it. It is most definitely not the same thing and makes your claim unsubstantiated. Since very few people have read Pandora Hearts here and most (like me) did not. That would mean you would have to prove all that. And from what i have seen the Core was unable to save Lacie or even bring her back, definitely proving it is not omnipotent.

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#43 Edited by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: First off I said "nigh-omnipotent". True omnipotence is a paradoxical concept that is impossible to portray, even in fiction. The presence died recently and TOAA has let beings supposedly close to him die as well if I recall.. Secondly, Lacie is a special case because she was destroyed by the Abyss's own intense energy which Oz's own powers happen to work similarly to. It scatters your entire existence, and thus you cannot be brought back like someone who died under normal circumstances. The reason she wasn't able to be saved before it happened was because Lacie is a child of ill omen; so her future was hidden, and she willingly allowed herself to be destroyed.

Also, you read the wiki? Apparently not well enough...

The Core of the Abyss is the macrocosm of the Dimensional Plane, being connected to every dimension ever created around the Abyss in various incarnations. The Core also exists alongside monitors for each dimension it creates called The Jurors

That was literally the first 2 sentences of the wiki. Did you read 1 sentence and stop?

Notice she says unfolding FROM the core?
Notice she says unfolding FROM the core?

Also the definiton you gave for macrocosm? Completely wrong:

The definition you gave was:

a small representative part of the entirety of a whole

If that were the case it would be called a microcosm:

Macrocosm:

the whole of a complex structure, especially the world or universe, contrasted with a small or representative part of it.

So when they refer to the core as a "macrocosm" of the multiverse they are saying that it IS the multiverse.

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#44 Edited by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

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#45 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Chimeroid (9175 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto:

Round 1

I have very little time so i will try to control my need to go in depth about every part of the post.

S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents and TP:

No real notable feats above the one i provided. I have no illusions about Loki overcoming them, but this battle will last about a couple of microseconds on both parts and that is all the time i need the Psi Shields to buy.

Next up - No, perfect teamwork doesn't mean the fodder knows what the generals are doing. Just like in the real life army, a soldier knows what is ordered to him to do. They don't suddenly have a mind link with Arion and Darkseid.

Feat you provided of Odin vs Loki was not a TP battle so that feat in and of itself is useless to prove this point.

Next up, you wanted to know how Darkseid can arm them? Well, keeping in mind he OWNS a planet and has BILLIONS of servants, all he would have to do is open a Boom tube and give the word.

And for your "solution" (the feat where Enchantress turns men into frogs) i have 2 counters.

1. There was like 4 soldiers there. Which is 300 times less than what i have

2. It is transmutation. Not allowed in this tournament.

Core of The Abyss discussion:

Power level of the Core: First of all the universes were creating themselves. They originated of the Abyss, but i found nothing that states the Core willingly created them. Not to mention that creating universes is not a "be all end all" feat as you claim it is. Hell, Franklin Richards has created pocket universes since he was a kid. Does that make him equal to TOAA? Hell no!

Scans you show us up there are also very vague and prove nothing. What you have is:

"Everything is recorded in the Abyss" which does not equal your claim - "Core of the Abyss knows everything and every possible future and passively sees it all".

What i am trying to say is even if the Core of the Abyss constantly has access to all knowledge do you have proof it constantly uses that access? Just like when something happens that Superman doesn't notice because he forgot to use his super hearing/sight/smell/whatever. THat happens. From what i have read The Core has very humanized personality and emotions. It is not a purely abstract form of omniscience and omnipotence.

You use a lot of absolute claims in your debating style like

"Children of Ill Omens are immune to fate"

Where we don't actually know that, we only know that they are immune to the powers of Jurors.

Next up is a direct quote talking about powers from the scan you used yourself:

"Control every time that has passed" - So, lack of ability to control the future at the very least.

Stretching the prep:

Reaction time and quickly casting basic spells =/= using the spells you have said you will. As i have already stated in my previous post he needed prep for a lot of feats you offered while saying what he will do.

While we are at it you say "fraction of power" and scans say a different thing. First one is ok. It says "less than normal" which doesn't mean much, could be 10% less.

And the second one is well, let's enlarge to show the voters:

No Caption Provided

Tho irrelevant. My point is that an hour is waaay to little time for him to cast all of those spells, some of which are proven to drain his powers a lot.

And your analogy between the axe and the police weapon is ridiculous.

Difference being - Only standard gear is his within prep here anything else, he must spend prep time to acquire. That axe was used once and never again (to my knowledge) and that one time that he used it he had to go and get it.

Loki vs Surtur:

Come on, Surtur was just waving his silly little sword instead of using some of his other powers. Loki wasn't really standing up to him, he was just using clones to avoid actually fighting himself and probably dying if he would try to. Ok, those clones managed to make Surtur feel pain, but they had no effect (as in injury or anything real). The only reason Loki lasted for those minutes is the fact that his clones evaded sword swings for a while but still perished one by one. Then he had to take time off to gather his powers again.

I mean, Loki constantly loses to Thor, he is not some uber Galaxy level being. Whenever he actually fights someone on that level he either loses hard or uses tricks to get some kind of an edge and lose again after a while.

Also, my point wasn't that he was tired because of the clones, but that he clearly needed to recharge his batteries before summoning them again which clearly shows that it takes a lot of his strength to create them.

Loki depowering magic:

Here's the thing. Loki halved Thor's powers. But that doesn't mean he can reduce everyone's power by 50% as you seem to claim.

Do you claim loki could halve the power of Galactus?

Or Beyonder?

Or maybe Void?

Clearly not. He can reduce someone's power by a certain amount. That amount is proven by showing his highest showing which is 50% of Thor's power.

Darkseid power debate:

You made this as an auxiliary point but i feel there is a need to explain why he is at this level of power and not universal.

A lot of people seem to say that most of Darkseid's showings are in fact, nothing more than avatars; and that the true Darkseid is actually some super-powerful universal+ entity. In which case, your 7 point Darkseid is NOT the true Darkseid at all, rather just an avatar.

Actually what i am using here is Uxas Khan who is being empowered by the entity of Darkseid. who is indeed multiversal in nature. So, i am not using an avatar, but i am restricted to feats of one carrier of Darkseid.

Think of it as Phoenix hosts since it is literally how it works. Once Uxas body was killed Darkseid took the body of Dan Turpin (and, in New 52 of Lex Luthor)

Darkseid teleportation:

The feat is of him teleporting, he has a bunch of other feats of teleporting around without a boom tube.

And it is not actually in his character to recklessly fight in non favorable positions. He has avoided combat when it didn't suit him and commonly teleports away or BFR's his opponents. He is not quite Thor to blindly fight.

But first to prove he can redirect teleportation:

No Caption Provided

Then to provide proof of him being willing to avoid combat if it is in an unfavorable situation like when he decided to cloak Apokolyps (took all of the energy due to the fact Apok is the size of several solar systems):

No Caption Provided

Not to mention he evades fights with those he should be able to beat like Wonder Woman

Now i have proven both that he has the ability to redirect teleportation and the common sense in combat.

Btw, darkseid commonly BFR's his opponents without a thought. He actually doesn't like physical combat as such and does what he can to avoid it and use his omega beams to simply win it.

SPECTRE IS A LOT MORE POWERFUL THAN OZ:

Stop doing that. They don't even compare. Literally your argument is Spectre beat Darkseid so Oz can too. It's as if you want to persuade the voters Oz and Spectre are of similar power levels, which is INSANE.

Stop with the No Limit Fallacy:

Seriously, he doesn't have feats of actually destroying anything with planetary+ durability. He cut the Core of the Abyss. Big deal, what are it's durability feats? Seriously. As i said. Franklin can create universe, yet he can also be cut down by a butter knife and a strong swing.

You said he could destroy the Earth, but only by cutting chains on it. not directly, so, once more, nothing to prove he can destroy anything that has planetary + durability. Your claim has more to do with "physics" of Pandora Hearts worlds where chains literally hold the world together, he only breaks one and the planet will fall apart. Not quite the same as planetary force.

You claim Oz can destroy literally ANYTHING. That in and of itself is a No Limit Fallacy. You sound like crazy Saitama fans who claim Saitama can One Punch kill anything. You know how it works. You show the highest end feat and that is the limit at which your character operates until a stronger feat is presented.

The link to your argument is ridiculous. First of all because Nightwing actually is on Deathstroke's level whether you like it or not(irrelevant to our debate). And secondly because you are just using someone else's opinion to make the voters believe in the NLF you are trying to impose here.

"HAX" Doesn't mean anything

You try to impose NLF by calling it "hax" and basically just using a buzz word. But the truth is, even "hax" has to be "something" and in this situation it can only do 1 of 3 things here.

1. Disintegration

2. Transmutation

3. Reality warping

There are literally no other options. So, with that in mind, and knowing 2 and 3 are forbidden in this tourney, you are only left with option number 1. And i have offered feats against Omega Beams. A disintegration force with better feats than Oz.

Unfortunately, i couldn't find actual scans to describe the powers of Oz. But on the wiki this is the explanation:

"Additionally, Oz has the power to destroy any object by concentrating his power into his weapon and reducing whatever it come into contact with into nothing more than sand."

Now, i would like the voters to focus on the 3 bolded words. "Reducing to sand". That makes it sound like transmutation which is not allowed in this tourney.

Your "Prep Counters"

Power Levels

Multi-Solar System is certainly impressive, but Loki has held his own against more powerful beings, even when by himself. I already showed his feats against Surtur and Odin. I showed you how powerful Surtur is, here is how powerful Odin is

Wow.. First of all. He didn't "hold his own" against Odin, it seemed like a did for a brief moment and then he got figuratively pimp slapped. You can't really scale off of a loss. Not to mention. Come on.

Loki loses to Thor 10 times out of 10. And in a lot of those he gets humiliated after taking his sweet sweet time prepping for it while Thor knew not of it. Odin Level??? Seriously? I have to ask the voters if they are buying that statement. Same for Surtur. The only thing we got to see from that fight is how far below Surtur Loki really is. How he could do nothing except stall him for a couple of minutes.

And lastly you show us Loki jumping on Dormammu's back while D is boasting. That is no show of power. I mean, i didn't read those, but a quick search shows me this image:

No Caption Provided

And don't forget. Arion himself used to be the Sorcerer Supreme of his time. His magic is almost unrivaled in DC and is the most powerful agent of Order. (Fate is stronger because Fate is not of a faction).

In the Eighth Age of Magic Lords of Order And Chaos were Gemimn and Chaon respectively. They were indeed universal entities of opposite sides. Their power was so vast that once they touched for the briefest of moments -This happened:

No Caption Provided

Now comes the fun part. Unlike Loki who lost against his High end opponents. Arion beat Chaon. Well, he couldn't kill him, but destroyed his physical form.

No Caption Provided

And in this battle Arion is getting a MAJOR amp from Darkseid and his trinkets. THAT is why i said Loki pales in comparison.

Ororo comparison:

You do realize Storm lost the fight against Thor without even harming him, right? but, regardless of that. This Arion is amped over the levels you provide.

As i have said, Darkseid can amp him to levels of Stayne who successfully stalemated Takion. The same Takion who explained that the Speed Force, Quantum Field and Emotional spectrum are all contained within his powers.

And keeping in mind that i have already shown my 1200 soldiers (1000 SHIELD agents and 200 dog hunters (the unit that chased off Orion)) won't be transmuted to frogs and will have 3 layered shields protecting them i still don't think you can just waltz in and pretend you have the numbers advantage.

Oz blitzing in invisibly:

Even if he was immune to future sight we would still have full info on your team via Crystal ball. What he has already done is not protected. Darkseid will not be monologuing while being killed. They will be aware of the power you have and will take it seriously.

Either way, Darkseid has Microsecond reaction feats, and if he saturates the air with Omega particles like he did in the feat i linked you he would still be able to kill Oz once Oz reveals himself. As a counter you talk about some "field" Oz has, but i haven't seen anything of it. And, quite frankly, i doubt he would be able to do it.

But not to backtrack. Oz still won't be the one to get the first hit in. Omega Beams are still faster than lightspeed.

And lastly. You are yet to prove Oz has what it takes to take down Darkseid.

Counters to your Conclusions

"Oz is immune to your precognition" - Yet to actually be proven

" Oz can put down Darkseid." - Not from what i have seen

"Loki and Erza are more than powerful enough to hold off, or even beat an "amped" Arion." Not from what i have seen. But on the other hand, you are making a classical mistake of splitting debates into separate fights. There is a reason why i have shown Darkseid hitting multiple targets with a single, unavoidable, Omega Beam.

No Caption Provided

The instant the fight starts Darkseid will be using his Omega Beam on EVERYONE on your team. I see nothing Erza can do to protect herself. Little for Oz and maybe medium for Loki. And that is only the first attack.

My Conclusions:

As the fight starts Darkseid fires off Seeker Omega Beams on the entirety of your team. They die.

Ok, but for real now.

After being amped by Darkseid and covered by protective fire from the fodder. Arion should be more than enough to handle Loki and Erza if it came to that. Darkseid himself should be too durable for Oz to one shot while Oz has no Durability whatsoever and would die to random AoE if he was caught in a "Wrong place, wrong time" type of situation.

For the Voters:

He is basing his debate on multiple No Limit Fallacies. Claiming omnipotence for the Core of the Abyss (proven unable to bring back Lacie or save her life) Claims omniscience, claims immunities.

Claims Oz can destroy ANYTHING without a limit. That Loki could halve the powers of ANYONE without a limit. And more.

I mean, if i went by using his NLF logic, i would claim that, since i was hit but none of my bones were broken that must mean that nothing in the universe can break them.

If we actually go by feats, and not assumptions his team doesn't really compare to mine. Oz doesn't have feats of destroying anything as durable as Darkseid (don't forget i have Pre Crisis feats here as well).

He has shown single pages (or sometimes single panels) to claim Loki can take on beings who easily wiped the floor with him (Odin, Surtur, Dormammu). Just a little closer inspection and those feats were debunked.

You choose whether or not Oz is immune to future sight, but do not forget, his past is wide open for my team to read, so we will still have full knowledge.

@zetsumotoYou're up

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#48 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15620 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: @chimeroid: ok so zets said he might go to votes now. So tell me if you guys want to open to votes.

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#49 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by MyLittleFascist (30861 posts) - - Show Bio