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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2 of the 2nd edition of my high tier pyp tourney.

Participants

@ssj_god

Characters:

  1. Shaman X-Man (7)
  2. Obsidian (7)
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Perks:

  • 2 Character Points x2 (10)
  • 1 Hour of prep (1)
  • 500 chitauri (4)

Versus

@chimeroid

Characters

  1. Pre 52 Darkseid 7
  2. Arlion 5
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Perks

  1. 2 more points 5
  2. perfect teamwork 5
  3. Hour of prep x2 2
  4. 1000 S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents 3

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than 616 spider-man.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 50

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:

@ssj_god@chimeroid Here's your thread

yessss... round two at last... who should start?

edit: actually, could you start?. i have very little knowledge on this arlion guy.

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#4 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: I will, but probably in the next 24-30 hours. I have a lot to do today.

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#5 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid said:

@ssj_god: I will, but probably in the next 24-30 hours. I have a lot to do today.

ohh.. ok.. then i could start if you want

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#6 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Well, if you can't wait you can't wait, btw, if you have read through my other debates (or at least, any debate from this tourney or previous incarnation of it :D ) it would give you a lot of knowledge of him.

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#7 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Well, if you can't wait you can't wait, btw, if you have read through my other debates (or at least, any debate from this tourney or previous incarnation of it :D ) it would give you a lot of knowledge of him.

nope i haven't .. but i will :)

and ok .. i'll start. will post in few hours

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#8 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Well, i definitely don't mind either way. I never thought who starts is important, it usually only boils down to who has more time :D

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#9 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

ok.. i'm starting :)

Team: Abstracts

X-Man

Nathaniel [Nate] Grey a.k.a X-Man
Nathaniel [Nate] Grey a.k.a X-Man

X-Man is an alternate version of the regular Marvel Universe hero Cable, hailing from the "Age of Apocalypse" (Earth-295) reality. He is the biological son of his dimension’s Scott Summers (cyclops) and Jean Grey, born of genetic tampering by Mr. Sinister. His first name is derived from his creator; Mr Sinister's real name: Nathaniel Essex, and his last name is from his genetic mother Jean Grey. Due to not being infected by a techno-organic virus as Cable was, X-Man achieved vast telepathic and telekinetic powers topped up with energy manipulation and other abilities.

Obsidian

Todd Rice a.k.a Obsidian
Todd Rice a.k.a Obsidian

Obsidian is the codename of Todd Rice, who is the biological son of Alan Scott and Rose Canton, respectively the Golden Age superhero Green Lantern and villain Thorn. Todd was raised in an abusive adoptive home in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Unlike his sister Jade, whose powers resemble their father's, Obsidian has various shadow-based powers from his father's exposure to shadow energy after a battle with Ian Karkull. Obsidian is connected to the Shadowlands, a dimension of primordial, quasi-sentient darkness. At will, Obsidian can merge with his own shadow and possess the shadows of others. In his shadow form, he is stronger than in human form, can pass through solid objects and can fly. After being corrupted by the Shadowlands, Obsidian was able to control his shadow powers to the point that he could grow to enormous size and create objects out of shadow, in a similar way that his father and sister can create objects out of green energy.

Chitauri x500

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The Chitauri are a race of shapeshifting aliens who have attempted to conquer the Earth, most notably during World War II and again in the early 21st century. The Chitauri claimed to be part of "the immune system of the Universe", wiping out disorder and free will wherever they find it. They seem to prefer to act behind the scenes, mimicking and influencing the social and military methods of the species they are currently infiltrating. For example, they aided the Nazis in their attempt at world conquest by providing them with the technology to create a nuclear bomb carried by an intercontinental ballistic missile.

Prep

Bonding Time:

nate grey will establish a mind link with obsidian, making him immune to psychic attacks (i.e nate will resist any psychic attack directed at obsidian as their minds are connected now ... that's pretty much as good as being immune right? :D)

here, nate is doing the same with multiple powerful reality hoppers (who can jump from universe to universe) mutants (who had tremendous telepathic resistance) at once .. to secure them from powerful mutant telepaths

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this'll also allow them to work in perfect tune ... as nate and obsidian, both will learn everything about each other .. their past... how their powers work... how they fight .. etc... these will make their teamwork perfect

here nate is learning everything about a mutant (who didn't knew that she was a mutant) in an instant, even the things, that she didn't knew about herself

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and he can also let loose his own mental block for others to know him through the mind link (what he's gonna do here)... here he does it with the same mutants from above

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with this, they becomes like a single entity divided in two bodies .. a well worked machine which knows everything about itself....

Know your enemy:

now comes the very important part ... they know everything about themselves .... but what about knowing the enemy?

well.. we have the man, i.e X-Man for that, with his uber precognition

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nate have an unbelievably strong precognition ability .. which allows him to peer into immediate and distant future ....

here, mimic received a fraction of nate's powers... which allowed him the tremendous precognition ability of nate .. and mimic couldn't cope with the massive information he was receiving.. he could see the future unfolding

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with this ...... our team will know EVERYTHING your team will try in this match .. this is what it is called knowing your enemies ..

now, i know your team can also peek into a distant future by looking through a crystal ball, but a precognition ability of this level is more effective in a situation like this (where both can peek into the future). because, this ability is spontaneous and also can work passively. so the user would get instant knowledge of any possibilities of changes in the future, where as, i'm sure no one would hold a crystal ball in front of them all the time to see the future.

so, if you can prove that this will not be much of a difficulty for your team, then we could just say, there would be no element of surprise left from either teams for the enemy.

Some more prep. here comes the bad... bad man and the army:

while nate does the above,

obsidian will go into shadow form, and will cover the whole planet in darkness before the battle begins.. people without super vision will become super useless

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he'll convert the full 500 chitauri army into his shadow soldiers ... they'd be the army of darkness .. in the dark planet. with obsidian having complete control over them..

turns a city full of people into shadow soldiers

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he'll also have the darkness demons summoned (max how much allowed here), made out of pure shadows.. you can see them in the background of another scan i posted later.

this marks the end of prep

The Battle Strategy

if the initial advantage for the precognition doesn't play that much part, then it will come down to the versatile elements or abilities our teams can take and dish out attacks. they'll already know what will effect the opponent. so they'll attack accordingly to start with

but you see. versatility in the unspoken middle name of my team. and in this area, they have your team beat by a huge margin. there are a number of ways of attacks your team can't refute against. for starters,

1) The fine tuned telekinesis:

nate can freeze your entire team in a statue state by stopping the electro-current in their brains... just like how he did it to a room full of people .. when he was just a teenager rookie.. without the control over his powers (means .. in shaman form... it won't even be a bother to him)

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Take a note, that this is NOT telepathy, but actually telekinesis used on the electro current passing inside the brain ..... so, having telepathy or telepathic resistance have nothing to do with this ... also .. before asking me on how this can affect a bunch of super powered beings ... i'll ask you to show me how their brain's electro current is any different from a normal human .. coz this technique has nothing to do with durability, physical prowess or other super powers .. not only you have to show the difference of their brain's electro current, but also .. if they can overpower shaman nate's VAST telekinetic powers (i'd like you to challenge this) to gain the control.

in a statue state, they'll be vulnerable to just about any attack.....

2) Telepathy + energy manipulation, balance of the uber:

The uber telepath can indeed combine his vast energy manipulation power with his vast telepathic powers.

the guy can drain out your member's brain energy to make you guys an empty shell without a working mind (i.e no energy left for the mind to work). and he'd be powered up in return, with your team's brain energy

here he drains all the the brain energy of a bunch of powerful telepaths through the astral plane and renders them.... empty. those telepaths were assigned by dr. mccoy and mystique, to find nate.

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Take a note. if you only have energy manipulation/resistance, then it'll not help, since in actuality, he's draining the energy of the mind through the astral plane, which is a psionic ability to begin with. on the other hand, only having telepathy/resistance will not help either, since he's draining out an actual energy out of your mind (see what happened with the above telepaths). so my guess would be, although not confirmed. if you have the ability to manipulate both, or resistance to both, then you might resist it. but then again. even after that, can you MATCH the power of the mighty X-Man to not get drained? i very much doubt it.

3) The Dark Side for darkseid and friends:

All the darkness is already present around your team. obsidian can simply devour your team, AND your army of shield agents in darkness, and make them shadow puppets. it's not only fodders which it can devour and conquer you know

devours a bunch of super powered heroes in his darkness and control their mind and soul

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Take a note, that this is a control over both mind and the soul, you'd be wise to not try to oppose it with resistance of just one of these abilities. even as a powerful magician, you will not be safe from it (see.. you can see dr. fate up there to confirm that)

4) Final take a note:

this is just to remind you, that these are few of many ways, against which your team has no answer. on top of that, i'm pretty sure nate alone can straight up cripple your team in telepathy, or crush your character's insides with telekinesis. but that's too mainstream. what's the fun in that?.. right? :)

Conclusion

  1. there are just many many ways i can see your team can be taken down with
  2. i don't see many ways for your team to take down mine

it's just a simple exhibition of versatility here, nothing else. and in that regard, my team has well beaten yours.

over to you.

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#10 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Really nice post. Let's see what i can come up with to make you see the error of your ways.

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#11 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Really nice post. Let's see what i can come up with to make you see the error of your ways.

sure. hope to have a good debate man. :)

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#12 Edited by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

Team: Defenders of the Title

Darkseid:

Surely you see the futility of the task you've set for yourself? The utter impossibility of beating me? I am invincible. I am Darkseid!

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Born of the royal family of Apokolips, Uxas is the younger son of Yuga Khan and Heggra. As the tyrannical ruler of the planet Apokolips, Darkseid's ambitions is to find Anti-Life Equation, with which he intends on conquering the universe and eliminating all free will.

POWERS

Physicals

Even though he rarely fights in hand to hand combat Darkseid has physical stats superior or comparable to the best of the DC Universe.

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1. Strength: Subdues Superman with 2 casual punches 2. Speed: Can do a lot in a microsecond (one milionth of a second) 3. Travel: "Unimaginable" (keep in mind New Genesis and Apokolips are millions of times bigger than Earth. (will explain with pic "5") 4. Durability: Lobo hurts himself when he punched DS, DS didnt even flinch 5. Explanation of the size of New Genesis and Apokolips

Energy Projection

Darkseid best known attack. The Omega Beam. Most usually channeled from his eyes or eyes of his avatars. Omega Beam is Darkseids ultimate weapon. It can disintegrate, transmute, teleport or resurrect his targets based on his desires.

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1. Disintegrates Lobos' body 2. Transmutes Cyborg Supermans body back from being a ball (he turned him into a metal ball without the OB) 3. Teleports himself Granny and Desaad to his lab 4. Can create an avatar of his head capable of using OB wherever he wants

Telekinesis

Easily capable of holding multiple super heroes at bay using his TK

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Definitely showing planetary level TK here.

Intellect/Creations

Even though most people don't appreciate this enough on the Vine Darkseid has a super genius level intellect which will definitely come in handy while prepping for this fight.

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1.2.3. He beats the Monitor in a strategy game while manipulating superheroes as pawns, he beat him so hard the Monitor didn't even realize he was a piece on the board. 4. Creates a machine capable of draining the life force of new gods, and quickly.

Mind control

He rarely uses it but he is capable of some incredible feats.

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Mentally dominates Superman and Martian Manhunter respectively

I have a lot more feats for Darkseid but these will have to do for the opener

Arion:

Kill me if you can, Beast... Kill me -- before this blade drinks deep of your own foul blood!

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Arion is the son of two Atlantean Gods born more than half a million years ago. His father was Calculhah, a force of good, and his mother was dark Majistra, a force of evil. Arion is one of the Greatest Mages of DCU with enough power to put down the likes of Etrigan or Superman with ease.

Spells:

It would be certifiably insane to list all the spells he can use so i will just keep to those i feel necessary for this debate(some other feats will be in the later part of the post) . Also, as i know you (and hopefully our voters) have read my previous debates i will try and find alternate scans with same spells just to mix it up :D

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1. Uses his future vision to get so much detail he created the entire Power Girl persona out of it. Entire history of Krypton and Superman was found out. 2. Creates a forcefield that held Power Girl and then paralized her. 3. Mind controls New Gods saying they are nothing to him. 4. Casually burns Etrigan.

Perk fodder:

1000 SHIELD agents

Paraphernalia

Equipment: Various including: A.N.C., Beta-cloth, kevlar body armor, jetpacks, teleporter, psi-blocker, Hover Discs, Neutro-Mist,

Weapons: Plasma pistols, needler pistols, various conventional firearms (.30 caliber machine pistol standard issue.)

To elaborate. ANC are airborne Nano cameras that my team can spread around stopping any surprise attack in its tracks.

Beta cloth and Armor to stop damage from fire and projectiles.

Psi- blockers

Prep time:

Arion:

Arion will open a portal to bathe in the light of stars to charge up his magical powers. In the provided link you will see that he got empowered by the fact that his father moved a star to a location from which it could shine on Arion's talisman.

Now, with his powers readied he will look into the future to get full knowledge of your team and what they will do in combat. He will then proceed to make personalized shield against them like he did to Superman.

He will also use the prep time to prepare the spell to take control of the minds of your team once the battle starts. And since it is a spell, your TP immunity wouldn't help, i mean he took over Martian Manhunter with his spells.

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That won't be the way i want to win, the point of it would simply be to slow your team down / Stop them so Omega Beams can delete them from existence.

Darkseid:

Having full knowledge of where your team will be, and what they can/will do Darkseid will prepare accordingly. He would create protective shields as well, both technological and Omega in nature.

Issues with your prep:

Nate's future sight:

I have to object. First of all, Nate has almost no control over that power of his, second it is very out of character for him to use it and third it is not nearly as detailed as you would need.

Let me prove it with a couple of scans from X-man 39 (tricky to use only a couple of pages to abide the forum rules though) and one page from :

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In reverse order: 3. 2. Proving it is out of character. He had to go to Canada because he knows he has no control over his powers. And is completely drained after the feat. And he had her help 1. It is not precise at all.

Of course, there is a lot more points to be made For instance, he couldn't choose what he sees, he coulnd't even identify Stryfe in his vision.

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And sorry, but your scans don't show him doing anything. One is a statement and the other is mimic doing it.

So. To recap - It is out of character for him to do so. He can't control his powers and ends up destroying everything around him when he attempts. It obviously took time for him to meditate, and you only have 1 hour of prep. And even when he does force himself to do that the information is far from complete and accurate. Not even close to what Arion can do.

So, with that being said, you will be going in blind into this one.

Obsidian Darkness:

You said

obsidian will go into shadow form, and will cover the whole planet in darkness before the battle begins.. people without super vision will become super useless

Which is actually not true. People who don't succumb to their fears were more than able of seeing in his darkness:

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They would see fine through the Darkness.

Not to mention that they are Magically shielded and you can't actually use anything directly on my team during prep. Even blinding us with darkness during prep would be considered attacking before the fight starts.

++ Point - It is not in character for Todd to open like that he did it once during what was basically a fit of Schizophrenia. Not to mention that, in your own scan, we have confirmation that he was operating above his normal levels.

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And even if it was within his level of powers this scan would still prove it to be out of character for him since his former allies never saw anything similar.

How i see the battle going

Now, with my team having full knowledge of advantage over yours they will be ready for anything your team will attempt. Arion will use his mind control spell to slow them down enough for Omega Beams to hit them and erase the from existence.

Nate's attempt to look into the future will leave him weak and disoriented and i am pretty sure neither of your characters have magic resisting feats.

This was a small taste of what's to come - Back to you.

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#13 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

umm.. i'll reply pretty quickly .. but .. did you just mixed up pre shaman and shaman nate there?.. lol

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#14 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: That was the only feat i found of Nate Grey actually looking into the future.

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#15 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Unless of course when he used Time manipulation to step outside of it, which would be outside tourney rules.

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#16 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: That was the only feat i found of Nate Grey actually looking into the future.

@ssj_god: Unless of course when he used Time manipulation to step outside of it, which would be outside tourney rules.

ok .. i think i'll just reply in the post rather here :)

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#17 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

you might have to wait a bit. i just almost finished up the post.. and chrome suddenly reloaded the page for no reason -_-

my theory exams r starting tomorrow.. so i might not get it to post today.

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#18 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

obviously i haven't forgotten. but as i said.. a hard 'digital communications' paper is on my head for tomorrow's exam.. lol

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#20 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god said:

obviously i haven't forgotten. but as i said.. a hard 'digital communications' paper is on my head for tomorrow's exam.. lol

I see. When do you think you will be free?

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#21 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god said:

obviously i haven't forgotten. but as i said.. a hard 'digital communications' paper is on my head for tomorrow's exam.. lol

I see. When do you think you will be free?

i literally finished my Private International Law today :D

Now that feeling Bruh :D

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#22 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god said:

obviously i haven't forgotten. but as i said.. a hard 'digital communications' paper is on my head for tomorrow's exam.. lol

I see. When do you think you will be free?

today ... got 2 days off time :)

@emperorthanos said:
@ssj_god said:

obviously i haven't forgotten. but as i said.. a hard 'digital communications' paper is on my head for tomorrow's exam.. lol

I see. When do you think you will be free?

i literally finished my Private International Law today :D

Now that feeling Bruh :D

woh.. congrats :)

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#23 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

sorry for the delay.. as i've said.. ongoing exams.. anyway.. i'm gonna make it as precise as possible

prep: highly suspicious

1)

Arion will open a portal to bathe in the light of stars to charge up his magical powers. In the provided link you will see that he got empowered by the fact that his father moved a star to a location from which it could shine on Arion's talisman.

wow wow wow.. hold up your horses there...

  1. how do you know he'll be able to open a portal beside that particular star (caculha wrenches) which boosts his energy?... that's an universal range portal creation you are talking about.. and you gave a feat of him opening a portal to go one place to another on earth. does he even know the location of that star?.. seeing as, his father brought it.
  2. how do you know that the star's energy can pass through his portal?.. otherwise, his father would've done the same u're talking about instead of bringing the whole freakin star.. no?

2)

Now, with his powers readied he will look into the future to get full knowledge of your team and what they will do in combat

does this mean he can't look into the future without charging his energy?.. good, then i'm not seeing it happening based on what you showed here.

3)

He will then proceed to make personalized shield against them like he did to Superman.

he just made a magic barrier.. which (magic), is in particular, superman's weakness (hence the remark, attuned to him).. that in no way says he can create barrier with anyone's any weakness.. hell, my characters doesn't even have a prominent weakness like that to begin with.

4)

He will also use the prep time to prepare the spell to take control of the minds of your team once the battle starts. And since it is a spell, your TP immunity wouldn't help, i mean he took over Martian Manhunter with his spells.

whatever the method.. a mind control is a mind control, it's as simple as that, and you have to overpower another to control the mind (like, it doesn't matter if you fire a bolt of magic energy or say, psionic energy.. it's still a bolt of energy, which will have to overpower the other in power if collides head on).

now.. he might've gotten MMH off guard, it doesn't matter, it's still a good feat, but can you give me the context on how exactly he applied his mind control on MMH?

anyway. nate is a superior telepath who'd cripple him in return if tries to go psychic...

here in his fight with cable.. he goes loose.. unable to control his powers, because in pre shaman (a teenage rookie), he couldn't control his powers and it was killing him... he went berserk, and on the verge of ripping open the astral plane itself (the hypothetical plane, from which, telepath's of marvel verse gets their psychic abilities)... on a scale of 1 to 10 of how dangerous nate was by that time, cable rated him 15

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and the effect of this feat?... worldwide telepaths .. even the powerful ones like jean grey or professor x were going into trauma because of this event happening at a far away place... had he actually gone through by ripping the astral plane.. all of the marvel verse telepaths would've been mind crippled. fortunately. he was still pre shaman. and was killing up himself by using his powers. he burnt out himself, and worldwide telepaths were saved (something, which wouldn't happen in shaman form.. i'll tell you why in a bit).

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that's how fearsome of a telepath nate grey was.. even in his rookie days

5)

That won't be the way i want to win, the point of it would simply be to slow your team down / Stop them so Omega Beams can delete them from existence.

well, i don't see him slowing down either of them.. both of them can pass through barriers. obsidian even has a special affinity to dominate magicians of fine grade.

as of the omega beams..... while i'm not refuting that omega beams could have that kind of ability.. but, deleting or erasing someone from existence without any explanation of how it happened, is a feat of reality warping, and is NOT applicable here as per the tournament rules.

and as for omega beams doing any other actual harm? i'll wait till you present something for that.

my perfect prep

I have to object. First of all, Nate has almost no control over that power of his, second it is very out of character for him to use it and third it is not nearly as detailed as you would need.

Let me prove it with a couple of scans from X-man 39 (tricky to use only a couple of pages to abide the forum rules though) and one page from :

In reverse order: 3. 2. Proving it is out of character. He had to go to Canada because he knows he has no control over his powers. And is completely drained after the feat. And he had her help 1. It is not precise at all.

i really didn't think you'd bring up pre shaman nate's feats to say he can't control his powers and it drains him out... are you that keen for me to explain what's the difference of pre shaman and shaman nate? .. alright, i'll take the initiative for the readers

nate's quick story of becoming a mutant shaman:

because of mr. sinister putting on a deformity in his gene, to rapidly increase his age so that he can kill apocalypse quickly (that was the sole reason sinister created such a powerful mutant in the first place).. nate's mortal body was unable to cope with the tremendous stress his power puts on it... so as a result.. whenever he used his powers.. he couldn't control it.. blood came out flowing from ears, nose etc.. and he was burning out himself.... rushing quickly toward his death by using his own powers

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after a chain of events.. he was finally captured by an evil queen jean from another reality.. who was capturing and destroying nate greys of other realities after absorbing their powers... though.. this nate grey was the ONLY fully functional nate grey in all realities.. so she was particularly cautious with her control over him.... but, the very first 'defective' nate evil queen jean found in the past (the original shaman nate), donated his x-gene insignia (the genetic brand queen jean gave this defective nate to hold himself) to nate, which could cure his gene imbalance, and prepare his body to handle his power, and also, the total control over his power.

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after this, the genetic brand 'X' got imprinted on nate's chest as a sign of him becoming 'repaired' from his gene defect. he received no added powers. just got the control over his own power.. and also a body, which will NOT be weakened or burnt out from using his powers.... but as a result of this, the true fearsome power of his came out.... the same nate, who got all bleed out, weakened or burnt out from one or two powerful psionic attacks... same nate, who got defeated by a defected nate far weaker than him in real power (the same defected nate who gave him the x-gene insignia).......... was now superior to the evil queen jean... had so much power to display, that jean straight up got intimidated.. he had the power to devour universes.. and he could control it now (his physical weakness was gone)

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now.. obviously, that devouring universes part is a hyperbole... but the main point is... this 'repaired' nate grey no longer has the 'getting weakened' or 'burnt out' from using his powers..

after this, he worked as a free lance helper to the mutant kind, and called himself the mutant shaman (means, a messiah to mutants).

____________________________________________________________________________________

now that we're clear of him not being able to control his powers, and being weakened by using them... lets talk about the other stuff you said

2.Proving it is out of character

1. It is not precise at all.

Of course, there is a lot more points to be made For instance, he couldn't choose what he sees, he coulnd't even identify Stryfe in his vision.

the ONLY thing he couldn't see in his precognition is, the actual body of onslaught (he could see a body outline).. , who was really tremendous in telepathic power, and he was actually superior to nate at that time, not because of raw power, but because nate couldn't control his powers.. he tried to forcefully see, but couldn't..... onslaught was actually blocking nate's vision as a superior psionic.... which isn't going to happen with shaman nate i'm afraid.

EDIT: sorry for the late edit, but i actually forgot, it wasn't stryfe who blocked his precog, it was rather the onslaught, who was very much powerful than nate at that time, and literally absorbed both nate and franklin richards afterwards

and to the rest of the question. it is a passive ability, which is always on... he always gets the vision of the future.. so manually using it all the time isn't necessary... we can see it in the scene i showed, because mimic was new to nate's powers.. so he suddenly started seeing visions from the future.. and he went haywire from fear...

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he could see ALL of the things of his future... for a stranger to this power, to suddenly see precisely everything of his future without doing anything... tells exactly how this ability works.

And sorry, but your scans don't show him doing anything. One is a statement and the other is mimic doing it. And hey, if we take statements then we should also use the one where

So. To recap - It is out of character for him to do so. He can't control his powers and ends up destroying everything around him when he attempts. It obviously took time for him to meditate, and you only have 1 hour of prep. And even when he does force himself to do that the information is far from complete and accurate. Not even close to what Arion can do.

So, with that being said, you will be going in blind into this one.

umm. i just showed that statement scan as a introduction to his ability .. nothing else.. it just says what are his primary abilities, and precognition is one of them, it's not a scan to provide feat. and as i said above. it doesn't take anything to do to see the future... he does go ignorant to his precognition from time to time in the middle of a fight because of focusing on a different area, but it's at least not going to happen in the prep time here.

lets ring a bell

and on the mention of 'out of character' abilities..... you are questioning a primary ability of nate's, which is active all the time ... when you're using these kind of moves?

1)

1. Uses his future vision to get so much detail he created the entire Power Girl persona out of it. Entire history of Krypton and Superman was found out.

2)

Arion will open a portal to bathe in the light of stars to charge up his magical powers. In the provided link you will see that he got empowered by the fact that his father moved a star to a location from which it could shine on Arion's talisman.

3)

He will then proceed to make personalized shield against them like he did to Superman.

4)

He will also use the prep time to prepare the spell to take control of the minds of your team once the battle starts.

5)

so Omega Beams can delete them from existence.

how many times have they used these in their entire carrier showings?.... one of them (opening portal to a particular star in far away space) is not even an ONE time feat .... a total made up feat which he COULD achieve as per you....

and you are talking about 'out of character' moves?... seriously bruh?!! .. seriously??

________________________________________________________________

now, to move onto obsidian

Which is actually not true. People who don't succumb to their fears were more than able of seeing in his darkness

umm.. i was kinda talking about, the actual darkness after the planet gets fully covered in darkness as in general .. light won't be present there, so there'd be darkness... it'd be hard to see in dark.. that's what i meant.

what you showed, is actually people not surrendering to darkness, and resisting to be devoured by darkness and become a shadow soldier, through sheer will (which i showed as one of my attack process later). yes, it is a possible way, but only when obsidian isn't precisely focused on a single person, rather devouring a mass of people. but, i'll just refrain myself from showing anything more on this. first you prove that these two have the will power which the people in your scan are showing (will power have nothing to do with actual power btw)

++ Point - It is not in character for Todd to open like that he did it once during what was basically a fit of Schizophrenia. Not to mention that, in your own scan, we have confirmation that he was operating above his normal levels.

And even if it was within his level of powers this scan would still prove it to be out of character for him since his former allies never saw anything similar.

yeah, he got a raise in his power after that period, unfortunately for you, i'm using the version, which came later to this period, who regained the mental control over his power.. so, there's no problem about it

and stop with your 'out of character' cry. they can see the future. i just showed the possible ways they can see an attack working, if other attacks aren't working, and this one is, they'll know before hand, and use this one, that's the idea.

total loss as an attack and defense post perspective

your ONLY way of attack in this post was this (just this much?)

Arion will use his mind control spell to slow them down enough for Omega Beams to hit them and erase the from existence.

i'll just copy paste what i said before

"well, i don't see him slowing down either of them.. both of them can pass through barriers. obsidian even has a special affinity to dominate magicians of fine grade.

as of the omega beams..... while i'm not refuting that omega beams could have that kind of ability.. but, deleting or erasing someone from existence without any explanation of how it happened, is a feat of reality warping, and is NOT applicable here as per the tournament rules.

and as for omega beams doing any other actual harm? i'll wait till you present something for that."

_______________________________________________________

on top of this

you did not refute a single attack i said about above, rather, your characters doesn't have the means to defend against ANY of the attacks i mentioned above. you went on about they're out of character attacks, they won't use them. but not a SINGLE defense was made against them if they indeed use them.

conclusion

frankly, i don't see ANY change from my previous post.. :/

  1. there are just many many ways i can see your team can be taken down with
  2. i don't see many ways for your team to take down mine

it's just a simple exhibition of versatility here, nothing else. and in that regard, my team has well beaten yours.

over to you.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#24 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god:

Round 1

I will put your uneasiness to rest now, so let's start. (the post will be short in hopes of prompting a faster paced debate since we are running out of time)

Prep:

Arion looking into the future:

does this mean he can't look into the future without charging his energy?.. good, then i'm not seeing it happening based on what you showed here.

Unfortunately for you, looking into the future is as simple as picking up a crystal ball to Arion:

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Amping himself:

You are correct, it is not in Arion's character to go for an amp during his prep, but i have perfect teamwork, and do you know who LOVES amps? Darkseid. In fact, most of what Darkseid does during his bigger story lines is amp himself and the others. So, with my perk i know they would, but now, you pose a question of "could" they do it.

So, let's answer your questions.

1. how do you know he'll be able to open a portal beside that particular star (caculha wrenches) which boosts his energy?... that's an universal range portal creation you are talking about.. and you gave a feat of him opening a portal to go one place to another on earth. does he even know the location of that star?.. seeing as, his father brought it.

2. how do you know that the star's energy can pass through his portal?.. otherwise, his father would've done the same u're talking about instead of bringing the whole freakin star.. no?

Uhm, it's the light of the star. Light travels through any portal you can see through. And i don't need to open portal next to that star i just need it somewhere that star shines upon. Either way, it is not actually a core part of my strategy as he won't have to deplete his magic while fighting your team.

Furthermore, even if you successfully debunk the idea of using that star to amp Arion i still have a myriad of other ways to do that. I mean Darkseid has ridiculous feats of amping others so it wouldn't really matter.

Attuned Barrier:

he just made a magic barrier.. which (magic), is in particular, superman's weakness (hence the remark, attuned to him).. that in no way says he can create barrier with anyone's any weakness.. hell, my characters doesn't even have a prominent weakness like that to begin with

Wow, you are wrong here. First of all, Attuned doesn't mean that, like at all. In fact, The point was that water was capable of rippling it and moving it while Superman was not.

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That is what attuned to Superman meant. Field was made to specifically stop HIM from going through it. Just like it would your characters. And btw, Superman doesn't have a weakness to magic, he is just not resistant to it. But in that particular issue, not even that is true. He was flat out immune to it via gifts from Phantom Stranger

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Point to be made. Attuned forcefield would stop your team from going through it.

Mind Control Spell

whatever the method.. a mind control is a mind control, it's as simple as that, and you have to overpower another to control the mind (like, it doesn't matter if you fire a bolt of magic energy or say, psionic energy.. it's still a bolt of energy, which will have to overpower the other in power if collides head on).

An other thing that is simply not true. MMH resisted galaxy level telepathic attacks and yet he has shown no defense against magical mind control. Method of use is actually really important. It is not the same power. Hell, that was what most of your argument was in your opener; the differences of what X-Man does and telepathy.

Arion has spells that took over New Gods and Martian Manhunter himself with no resistance shown. I've got no doubt Nate is a stronger telepath which is why i am glad i am not engaging him in TP battle but rather using a spell to stop him from doing anything while Darkseid murders him.

Omega Beams

This shouldn't surprise you, but you are not the first having issues of me using Omega Beams in this tourney. In fact Vintage_Spiderman used the exact same argument and we called for a ruling from EmperorThanos. So, to cut the proverbial crap:

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I am allowed to use Omega Beams.

Nate's Premonition

You are still to show any feats that would explain how much he can find out. Someone else using his powers is not a legitimate showing of him. So, please, on with the feats.

To keep it simple, if you want to prove Nate can do something simply show me him doing it.

Obsidian's Darkness:

umm.. i was kinda talking about, the actual darkness after the planet gets fully covered in darkness as in general .. light won't be present there, so there'd be darkness... it'd be hard to see in dark.. that's what i meant.

And what i was talking about was that people saw clearly in that "Darkness" both those who succumbed to it and those who did not. There was fighting, looting and stuff, people were obviously not blind. I think my scan was really clear about that.

what you showed, is actually people not surrendering to darkness, and resisting to be devoured by darkness and become a shadow soldier, through sheer will (which i showed as one of my attack process later). yes, it is a possible way, but only when obsidian isn't precisely focused on a single person, rather devouring a mass of people. but, i'll just refrain myself from showing anything more on this. first you prove that these two have the will power which the people in your scan are showing (will power have nothing to do with actual power btw)

What i have shown is people seeing in that dark. Simple as that. And the rest of this quote is you sounding like DarkRaiden honestly... Obsidian can't even start to compare to Darkseid let alone absorb him in darkness.

Not to mention Obsidian's darkness has a gaping weakness - Bright Light.

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And this was a simple light from Dr. Midnight's improvised flashlight. Not only it hurt Obsidian himself it actually destroyed the shadows around Hawkgirl. With full knowledge my team would have they would be ready for this with a simple counter.

For the voters.

1. I have proof i can look in to the future and i have shown how much information Arion is capable of acquiring (all of it, literally)

2. I have shown Arion using a spell to mind control Martian Manhunter. He responded with typical TP feats, which is basically apples and oranges.

3. I have shown that Darkseid will use his Omega Beams in this battle to delete his enemies

4. He is yet to show us what Nate can/will see, how much information he will actually gather if/when he uses his precognition

5. I have shown Obsidian's darkness is not as impressive as he tried to pass off.

6. He called me out for out of character behavior, but i actually got a perk that allows me to do so.

7. His team is poweful indeed, but my team covers wider area of powers. He claims Versatility but he fails to showcase it.

8. He even went as far as to claim Obsidian would possibly solo my team. Well, Justice League should have him as their strategist, Darkseid would no longer pose a thread since Todd could solo him apparently

Your turn. A lot more to come :D

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Avatar image for ssj_god
#25 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

lets cut the chase

I will put your uneasiness to rest now, so let's start. (the post will be short in hopes of prompting a faster paced debate since we are running out of time)

it'd be better if you concentrate on the debate rather than flattering yourself like this..

anyway ..we are running out of time? too bad then, i still have ongoing exam till 27th .. though i'll try to reply quick if possible

on your issues

1)

Unfortunately for you, looking into the future is as simple as picking up a crystal ball to Arion:

fair enough .. i don't really raise much questions to a good feat, i rather like to concentrate on my own work than to nitpick my opponent's .. i just wondered this because of what you said (the line i quoted there in the previous post).

2)

Uhm, it's the light of the star. Light travels through any portal you can see through. And i don't need to open portal next to that star i just need it somewhere that star shines upon. Either way, it is not actually a core part of my strategy as he won't have to deplete his magic while fighting your team.

Furthermore, even if you successfully debunk the idea of using that star to amp Arion i still have a myriad of other ways to do that. I mean Darkseid has ridiculous feats of amping others so it wouldn't really matter.

sure.. try using other methods.. but i can't see this happening.. becoz first .. the star is from a far away place.. so you literally have to open a portal somewhere in distant space (where the star shines).. and we don't even know if arion knows the location of that particular star... sooo hoping for a 'COULD' with that much stretched out assumptions?.. i doubt it'll establish.

and i'm glad that it's not a part of your core strategy. :)

3)

Point to be made. Attuned forcefield would stop your team from going through it.

you know what ... we don't need to debate this one... because i haven't used even one single ability which needs to go near your team

BUT ... this is sooo flat out wrong assumption.. from a feat.. to stop a brute physical like superman ... any logic or proof to say it can stop people who can phase through shields (both my characters)? who can teleport in (both my characters)? who can go via another hypothetical plane such as astral plane (nate)? who is omnipresent (obsidian, and you'll find out how)? someone who can force teleport you outside of your shield (nate)? ... i don't think so .. so please drop this useless point.. coz it doesn't hold any value to this debate, my strategies so far doesn't require going near you.

4)

An other thing that is simply not true. MMH resisted galaxy level telepathic attacks and yet he has shown no defense against magical mind control. Method of use is actually really important. It is not the same power. Hell, that was what most of your argument was in your opener; the differences of what X-Man does and telepathy.

all i wanted to see is the context of that application when it is used ... there is no information about it ... no one said mages doesn't have telepathy.. and we don't know if MMH resisted against that or not .. all we see is the AFTERMATH of the application

maybe he used a 5 day preparation to use that powerful mind control.. maybe he caught MMH off guard somehow to mind control him.... you are just ASSUMING this is anything different than mind control .. you can prove that he didn't simply overpowered MMH that one time to apply mind control?

5)

This shouldn't surprise you, but you are not the first having issues of me using Omega Beams in this tourney. In fact Vintage_Spiderman used the exact same argument and we called for a ruling from EmperorThanos. So, to cut the proverbial crap:

I am allowed to use Omega Beams.

i can't see what GIF you posted there, but i can tell you this much you are trying to stretch what i meant ... i have NEVER said about not being able to use omega beams.. i ask you to quote where i said using omega beams shouldn't be allowed.. i said this

"as of the omega beams..... while i'm not refuting that omega beams could have that kind of ability.. but, deleting or erasing someone from existence without any explanation of how it happened, is a feat of reality warping, and is NOT applicable here as per the tournament rules.

and as for omega beams doing any other actual harm? i'll wait till you present something for that."

i just questioned about your claim of deleting/erasing from existence .... @emperorthanos should know.. saying straight up deleting someone from existence means a reality manipulation feat, it means you are tampering reality to not hold that person or his soul or even his existence anymore ..... you know what?.. i think you know that nate can force teleport people outside of reality... should i be allowed to use that?.. because deleting someone from reality and teleporting someone out of reality is essentially the same thing.....

other than this single claim ... i never said omega beams can't be used to smash, burn, disintegrate, vaporize or whatever to his opponent... not that you showed anything like that 'erasing from existence' feat stuff.. but even just the assumption of something is questionable.

on my part

precognition:

You are still to show any feats that would explain how much he can find out. Someone else using his powers is not a legitimate showing of him. So, please, on with the feats.

To keep it simple, if you want to prove Nate can do something simply show me him doing it.

he can find out exactly what is about to happen... you even showed feats of that

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he saw through his own future .. his upcoming fight with onslaught and even his own death (which was true.. onslaught absorbed both nate and franklin richards).... he saw the future of an entire area... even pre shaman nate could do that much with future sight.. even though his body wasn't permitting him to use his powers.. and he was getting weakened by it even when he tries to particularly focus on it.. which isn't a factor anymore for shaman nate

only once he couldn't see onslaught's body .. because he was stronger than nate in psionic at that time (mostly because nate couldn't use his true power).. and onslaught was actually blocking nate's future sight... even then, nate could see his body outline.. how he fights him.. how he dies in his hand... in case of shaman nate, even this isn't possible, because i don't simply see someone having stronger psionic than him to block his vision.

Someone else using his powers is not a legitimate showing of him. So, please, on with the feats.

the main point of the mimic feat is.. mimic didn't use anything he straight up saw a spontaneous future to it's every details.. without doing ANYTHING ... this just shows what nate always see ...because nate can control his powers.. there's no need to show what he always see everytime.. but in the hands of someone, who's novice to it.. it is a big deal if he can suddenly see everything about the future.

i believe it is a clear enough showing to say nate can see what would happen in the battle against his own team, specially when he has uninterrupted focus during the prep times....... and i don't think you're a darkraiden type of denying debater, who says "a natural lightning isn't as fast as a real lightning if it happened in the pokemon world" (seriously.. he lowballs pokemons too much). and i'm finding very similarity with your way of thought "someone else seeing it, and nate can't see that" .. he's not even using it to see anything.. he's spontaneously seeing it.. what are you trying to say?.. nate can't see what another person can see with nate's power without even trying?

darkness:

And what i was talking about was that people saw clearly in that "Darkness" both those who succumbed to it and those who did not. There was fighting, looting and stuff, people were obviously not blind. I think my scan was really clear about that.

you're not getting it what i meant.. i was talking about the natural light... once the whole planet gets covered in darkness... the natural light to see things won't be present there.. i simply meant that much ... and you keep on going about that consuming in darkness thing... :/

see how hawkgirl comments .. it's getting darker and colder.. while the planet was still getting covered in darkness

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just this much .. i just simply meant.. it'll be dark all around the planet.

What i have shown is people seeing in that dark. Simple as that. And the rest of this quote is you sounding like DarkRaiden honestly... Obsidian can't even start to compare to Darkseid let alone absorb him in darkness.

i don't know how i'm sounding like darkraiden to you... but what you showed.. was about people getting out of obsidian's darkness consumption by sheer will ... all i wanted you to show.. your team having any good feat about having a strong show of willpower.. since you brought it up that through sheer willpower, it is possible to get out of obsidian's control .......

and i have no idea why comparing raw power suddenly came (i already mentioned that having a will power have nothing to do with the real power)..from what you showed, people can say, that captain america could get out of obsidian's control because he have very good feats of having tremendous will power ... even though he compares nowhere even near obsidian in actual power... so unless either of your team has any actual showing of will power... they're not even coming out of even a mass possession (which is weaker) like that... let alone focused possession.

now.. if obsidian actually focuses his possession ... even strong will powered people .. high order mages succumbs to it

focused.. and possessed the justice league ALONG with dr. fate (so much for arion the mage)

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now to your next query

Not to mention Obsidian's darkness has a gaping weakness - Bright Light.

And this was a simple light from Dr. Midnight's improvised flashlight. Not only it hurt Obsidian himself it actually destroyed the shadows around Hawkgirl. With full knowledge my team would have they would be ready for this with a simple counter.

really?.. you think that's gonna stop obsidian?.. lol

that's nowhere even close to what can stop obsidian.. not when he's in his shadow form. and he IS in shadow form here

straight up absorbs the green lantern's light (which is a hell lot more bright than a flashlight XD), which was a powerful attack to hurt jade... what's more ... he CONSUMED the LIGHT ITSELF into darkness .... and even that .. the light.. which is the embodiment of will power (a green lantern's light)... so much for breaking out of focused darkness possession with will power and light

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absorbs all the color there is to a visible light (rainbow light) ... and that too .. from a reality warper named chroma (so much for darkseid's omega beams :/).. he's a living black void.

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frankly speaking .. there are tons of showings of obsidian against light .. against that PIS you just showed .. it's not that light negates obsidian's darkness .. it's actually the other way around .. obsidian's darkness consumes any light... that's why he's so dangerous.

your two pieces of attacks

tell me if i'm wrong.. but thus far, your ONLY visible attacks were JUST these two

1)

He will also use the prep time to prepare the spell to take control of the minds of your team once the battle starts.

there is NO context behind this feat.... something so crucial to your attack plan, should be so halfhearted ... the questions i raised are serious

"all i wanted to see is the context of that application when it is used ... there is no information about it ... no one said mages doesn't have telepathy.. and we don't know if MMH resisted against that or not .. all we see is the AFTERMATH of the application

maybe he used a 5 day preparation to use that powerful mind control.. maybe he caught MMH off guard somehow to mind control him.... you are just ASSUMING this is anything different than mind control .. you can prove that he didn't simply overpowered MMH that one time to apply mind control?"

2)

Arion will use his mind control spell to slow them down enough for Omega Beams to hit them and erase the from existence.

here you see.. you know very well, that the mind control feat you are talking about, can't stop them .. well, without context, it's not gonna be applicable in the first place .. BUT, what'll really put a dent in your plan is, 'omega beams can't do anything to either of my characters'

nate:

ever since he returned from death .. his real body was destroyed .. he's now just a psionic being .. with a pure psionic body

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the body you see.. is just a construction of his psionic (remember why i said his body speed doesn't matter?.. coz in actuality, his real body doesn't even exists anymore)

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you can incinerate him, disintegrate him, scatter him into pieces .. unless you do something about his psionic self ... you're not getting rid of him... physical attacks would do sh*t to him (the dude once survived by just existing inside a boys memory.. didn't had a physical body, not even a psionic one XD)

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on top of this... nate is a top tier energy manipulator....

even in rookie days... can bend around energies at the epicenter of huge a$$ nuclear like blasts

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have an unbelievable level of power in energy manipulation (he actually created an artificial sun here.. to devour a city sized structure in it... didn't detonate it though)

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anything to say why he can't bend around omega beams like he always bends around lasers beams?

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obsidian:

you ever wondered why i went to cover the whole planet in darkness?.... just to make you blind sighted?.. nope .. it is because

in his darkness form ... obsidian IS darkness itself .. the nothingness.. the void .. oblivion .. the ultimate aloneness

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in shadow form .. he's beyond space and time itself

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the guy is omnipresent where he inhabits (here, the darkness of the entire planet).. even down to the basic particles

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soo.. good luck using omega beams to everything and everyone (which includes your team too btw) to get rid of obsidian .. and good luck hurting something, which is beyond time and space itself.

the array of variety

you have not given ANY defense against the very first line of attacks i used.. only argument you provided against.. is obsidian's shadow possession... which i think.. didn't go in your favor (look above ;))..

let me just remind you of what i said

1) The fine tuned telekinesis:

nate can freeze your entire team in a statue state by stopping the electro-current in their brains... just like how he did it to a room full of people .. when he was just a teenager rookie.. without the control over his powers (means .. in shaman form... it won't even be a bother to him)

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Take a note, that this is NOT telepathy, but actually telekinesis used on the electro current passing inside the brain ..... so, having telepathy or telepathic resistance have nothing to do with this ... also .. before asking me on how this can affect a bunch of super powered beings ... i'll ask you to show me how their brain's electro current is any different from a normal human .. coz this technique has nothing to do with durability, physical prowess or other super powers .. not only you have to show the difference of their brain's electro current, but also .. if they can overpower shaman nate's VAST telekinetic powers (i'd like you to challenge this) to gain the control.

in a statue state, they'll be vulnerable to just about any attack.....

2) Telepathy + energy manipulation, balance of the uber:

The uber telepath can indeed combine his vast energy manipulation power with his vast telepathic powers.

the guy can drain out your member's brain energy to make you guys an empty shell without a working mind (i.e no energy left for the mind to work). and he'd be powered up in return, with your team's brain energy

here he drains all the the brain energy of a bunch of powerful telepaths through the astral plane and renders them.... empty. those telepaths were assigned by dr. mccoy and mystique, to find nate.

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Take a note. if you only have energy manipulation/resistance, then it'll not help, since in actuality, he's draining the energy of the mind through the astral plane, which is a psionic ability to begin with. on the other hand, only having telepathy/resistance will not help either, since he's draining out an actual energy out of your mind (see what happened with the above telepaths). so my guess would be, although not confirmed. if you have the ability to manipulate both, or resistance to both, then you might resist it. but then again. even after that, can you MATCH the power of the mighty X-Man to not get drained? i very much doubt it.

now on top of this ... let me add some more

1) telepathy:

i think it's safe to assume you already know about it as you confessed here

I've got no doubt Nate is a stronger telepath which is why i am glad i am not engaging him in TP battle

.. and also .. even the pre shaman feat i gave is enough to say about it i think .. saving me of posting more of the rather unnecessary feats ... it's evident that nate can solo your entire team with telepathy

2) telekinesis:

the guy can break down your body from the microbial level

detects and destroys individual microbs from the sea.. while holding up millions of gallons of sea water ... even in his rookie pre shaman days

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and how strong of a telekinesis?... lets give an idea of pre shaman level of telekinesis

divides the sea in half to find a ship wreckage (notice how he was bleeding in both the feats.. as then, using his power was actually weakening and killing him.. it was just a tiny portion of power of what he can achieve with his true power)

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even pre shaman.. his tk was apparently strong enough to crush a falling moon

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3) omnipresence man:

as you already saw.. obsidian is already present everywhere... even inside your body's parts and their darkness (so much for even the concept of your attuned shield)... he can construct through darkness.. making it diamond hard

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how tough if we gauge his darkness constructs? ... well .. tougher than top tier green lantern constructs.. so much.. that it can stomp two top tier green lanterns at once

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he can create something like swords out of those tough shadows

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can chock and crush

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the guy is present everywhere.. inside and out of you .. he can rip open.. blast through .. choke/crush your body, vital parts, insides ... and he can do it from inside out... right at the beginning of the battle...

and how fast he can react to do it? .. he's literally faster than jay garrick flash in every way.. in his shadow form (light speed combat feat)

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so your characters .. at least arion would go down at the very beginning if this takes place ... he doesn't have the speed.. not the physical durability to endure this.. and i don't think darkseid will fare any good either.. is there any durability/cutting resistance feat of his body insides?

i think it will be hard enough for you to digest for now.. want an antacid? :D

for the reader part (*important)

you made quite a bit false intakes here

2. I have shown Arion using a spell to mind control Martian Manhunter. He responded with typical TP feats, which is basically apples and oranges.

until you show the context of it... what i said still remains the same.. you can't refute it from a simple mind control .. from just a mention of a word 'spell' without any context behind it.. it's simply how you didn't accept the precognition from simply having it mentioned within his power set .. we had to actually go through all those explanations to clear it up.

3. I have shown that Darkseid will use his Omega Beams in this battle to delete his enemies

whatever you've shown till now (disintegration, burning etc.) will have 0 effect on my team.. i've showed that above .. your this 'deleting from existence' claim is NOT backed by any feat... nor it is within the tournament rules

rather.. no defense till now from nate straight out manipulating omega beams

4. He is yet to show us what Nate can/will see, how much information he will actually gather if/when he uses his precognition

5. I have shown Obsidian's darkness is not as impressive as he tried to pass off.

yeah .. covered this part above... tremendously.

6. He called me out for out of character behavior, but i actually got a perk that allows me to do so.

excuse me?!!! ... i never called you out for anything like that ... you got a perk.. prep.. which can allow you to assess the situation, also a full knowledge to know your enemies.. you have a way to see future.. so it is not so far fetched for you to device out of character moves... but the thing is... i also have prep perk .. my team can also know enemy attacks by instantaneous feed of the future (better than looking through a crystal ball once) .. so it is not far fetched for them to device out of character moves either....

but i was just surprised of you calling me out on 'out of character' thing like that (you mentioned at least 5 times in the previous post) .. that's why i told you to look in the mirror .. becoz you are attempting even more out of character moves than what i'm going for .. :/

here's what i said

"and on the mention of 'out of character' abilities..... you are questioning a primary ability of nate's, which is active all the time ... when you're using these kind of moves?

and you are talking about 'out of character' moves?... seriously bruh?!! .. seriously??"

7. His team is poweful indeed, but my team covers wider area of powers. He claims Versatility but he fails to showcase it.

really?... am i the one who's going for only two type of attacks, which my opponent can not be hurt with?

am i the one whos team has no answer for 6 types of attack process mentioned here (there are even more)? .. i don't think so.

8. He even went as far as to claim Obsidian would possibly solo my team. Well, Justice League should have him as their strategist, Darkseid would no longer pose a thread since Todd could solo him apparently

wait what?.. why are you putting your words in my mouth?... i never said things like that... i just simply showed you a way of attack .. and wanted a logical reply with feats, of why it won't work

you know what?.. it's way tough to deal with obsidian.. if you can't show darkseid dealing with him.. maybe they should have him.. not as a strategist, but the main attack weapon ..

i fail to understand why you would bring out such an out of context talk in a CaV .. -_-

Your turn. A lot more to come :D

you better... at least make it a challenge

Conclusion

  1. my team can see into the future (yours can too) to determine which attack process can work.. and go with it .. so far.. there are 6 attack processes your team has no answer to.
  2. your teams only two way of attacks are useless against my team... so far it seems.. as if your team can't even harm my team.
  3. too much versatility to deal with .. in offense, as well as in defense

over to you!!

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#26 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: @chimeroid: The beams are allowed but any aspect of it that breaks the rules will not be allowed. Such as reality warping.

I hope that clears any problems.

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#27 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: @chimeroid: The beams are allowed but any aspect of it that breaks the rules will not be allowed. Such as reality warping.

I hope that clears any problems.

I've shown in my opener in every tourney match so far. And it is not reality warping. It is just destroying things with them. You have ruled already on this EXACT usage and said it was ok. So i don't see an issue here.

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#28 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:

@ssj_god: @chimeroid: The beams are allowed but any aspect of it that breaks the rules will not be allowed. Such as reality warping.

I hope that clears any problems.

I've shown in my opener in every tourney match so far. And it is not reality warping. It is just destroying things with them. You have ruled already on this EXACT usage and said it was ok. So i don't see an issue here.

I wasn't talking about anything specific, I was justing saying that if it is reality warping then it isn't allowed. I will let you guys argue that and let the voters decide.

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#29 Posted by Sly_141 (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#30 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:
@chimeroid said:
@emperorthanos said:

@ssj_god: @chimeroid: The beams are allowed but any aspect of it that breaks the rules will not be allowed. Such as reality warping.

I hope that clears any problems.

I've shown in my opener in every tourney match so far. And it is not reality warping. It is just destroying things with them. You have ruled already on this EXACT usage and said it was ok. So i don't see an issue here.

I wasn't talking about anything specific, I was justing saying that if it is reality warping then it isn't allowed. I will let you guys argue that and let the voters decide.

you can destroy around with it any way you want .. i never said about anything on them .... but 'deleting/erasing' someone from existence claim is absurd ... as it is a tampering with reality .. you haven't shown any feats of this kind though .. the claim is enough to intervene. .. here's what i said

"i just questioned about your claim of deleting/erasing from existence .... @emperorthanos should know.. saying straight up deleting someone from existence means a reality manipulation feat, it means you are tampering reality to not hold that person or his soul or even his existence anymore ..... you know what?.. i think you know that nate can force teleport people outside of reality... should i be allowed to use that?.. because deleting someone from reality and teleporting someone out of reality is essentially the same thing.....

other than this single claim ... i never said omega beams can't be used to smash, burn, disintegrate, vaporize or whatever to his opponent... not that you showed anything like that 'erasing from existence' feat stuff.. but even just the assumption of something is questionable."

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#31 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god:

@ssj_god:

Round 2

Let's see exactly how wrong you are.

Arion amping via Star:

i can't see this happening.. becoz first .. the star is from a far away place.. so you literally have to open a portal somewhere in distant space (where the star shines).. and we don't even know if arion knows the location of that particular star... sooo hoping for a 'COULD' with that much stretched out assumptions?.. i doubt it'll establish.

The star that was moved was put to the place where Arion was when he was a star himself. (Being the son of gods at one point he existed as a star until he was needed on earth again, when he came back Ahri'Ahnn - His star, was no more). So, with that in mind, that star is now where His father put it. Moving a star is quite a permanent thing, don't you think?

Also, since Arion can use crystal balls to get any information he wants it would be ridiculously easy for him to find where on Earth that star is shining right now.

Now, he needs that exact star to AMP himself over his levels. But with Light being his powersource he can actually sustain his magic using regular starlight.

No Caption Provided

Now, the point of this part of my prep is for Arion not to deplete his magics with his spells. You see, he is capable of feats at Skyfather levels but he is always left powerless after using that much magic.

My prep about him was to simply sustain his magic. Amping was just a bonus. If i just wanted to amp him i could have used Darkseid's Omega Power to grant him incredible powers.

Magical Shields:

you know what ... we don't need to debate this one... because i haven't used even one single ability which needs to go near your team

First of all, the reason i created these shields was to prevent your prep with Obsidian to cover my team in darkness. I don't need them once the battle starts...

In every round of this tourney (both installments) my opponents behaved like i was on defensive because of my shields. I am NOT. I am attacking your team from the get go. I am just defending my team with spells to stop your prep.

BUT ... this is sooo flat out wrong assumption.. from a feat.. to stop a brute physical like superman ... any logic or proof to say it can stop people who can phase through shields (both my characters)? who can teleport in (both my characters)? who can go via another hypothetical plane such as astral plane (nate)? who is omnipresent (obsidian, and you'll find out how)? someone who can force teleport you outside of your shield (nate)? ... i don't think so .. so please drop this useless point.. coz it doesn't hold any value to this debate, my strategies so far doesn't require going near you.

Well, it is on you to prove your team can phase through magic. Not on me. But other than that, using Astral Plane to dimension walk is not allowed in this tourney as you eloquently debated in the PM.

My shield point is quite relevant and useful. I understand if you don't see it that way, but in that case, feel free to ignore it. Also, Obsidian is NOT omnipresent. He is capable of Shadow Walking and can expand his existence, but he is not omnipresent as he always makes himself a body to fight.

Mind Control Spell:

all i wanted to see is the context of that application when it is used ... there is no information about it ... no one said mages doesn't have telepathy.. and we don't know if MMH resisted against that or not .. all we see is the AFTERMATH of the application

Spell was cast off panel. But that doesn't make the feat any less applicable. This was not an issue about Arion, he only appears as a supportive character for the story. But i do have answers to your questions.

1.maybe he used a 5 day preparation to use that powerful mind control.. 2.maybe he caught MMH off guard somehow to mind control him.... 3.you are just ASSUMING this is anything different than mind control .. 4.you can prove that he didn't simply overpowered MMH that one time to apply mind control?

1. He didn't have 5 days of prep. The entire chapter happened in one evening. MMH and Hawkman came to beg for Arion's help, he refused, later changed his mind and used the spell on MMH.

2. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't, but then again, MMH never showed any resistance to Magic so i don't see how he could resist a spell

3.4. I am not assuming anything. Arion does not have telepathy as such. His only power is MAGIC. And he said, on that exact panel, that he used a spell on Martian FORCING him to do his bidding (in this case, bring him to Hawkman)

So, to recap, it is not telepathy, it is a mind control spell, or mind control magic if you will. You need to show Magic resistance feats to prove your team would be immune to it.

And, once more, i don't even need Arion to completely control your team. I just need them to slow down for a microsecondand get killed by Omega Beams.

Disintegrating=/= Reality warping

Wanna see what reality warping is?

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Arion, after magic came back, easily turns entire city into monkeys with a thought. That is reality warping.

And these are Omega Beams.

This is not reality warping.
This is not reality warping.

But that is not all Omega Beams can do (that is also not Reality Warping)

He could place your team's life forces into inanimate objects.

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Or he could straight up depower your team, (also not reality warping).

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Nate's Precog

See? I told you there is only one applicable feat of Nate looking into the future, and the best part? I have already countered it. In great detail if i must add.

So i won't counter the feat itself again, i will rather counter your new claims.

he saw through his own future .. his upcoming fight with onslaught and even his own death (which was true.. onslaught absorbed both nate and franklin richards).... he saw the future of an entire area... even pre shaman nate could do that much with future sight.. even though his body wasn't permitting him to use his powers.. and he was getting weakened by it even when he tries to particularly focus on it.. which isn't a factor anymore for shaman nate

Actually, that feat you are showing is from X-Man 39 and in his future he saw his fight against Stryfe, not Onslaught. Really, i got no idea where did you get that it was Onslaught in his vision. Not to mention his vision didn't show him being absorbed, but rather exploding and destroying a planet. So most of your paragraph here is plain wrong.

And, importantly, he got no knowledge of his opponent through his vision. I have shown feats of Arion getting full knowledge on Superman and entire Krypton in fact using his future sight. In your feat Nate basically gets nothing right and he can't identify who he sees, nor choose what he sees.

Also, any proof that he can't look into the future of anyone stronger than him? That sounds weird.

Obsidian Darkness

you're not getting it what i meant.. i was talking about the natural light... once the whole planet gets covered in darkness... the natural light to see things won't be present there.. i simply meant that much ... and you keep on going about that consuming in darkness thing... :/

No, i do NOT. What i am talking about is the fact that they SAW NORMALLY IN HIS DARKNESS, i have shown that they were able to SEE!!!! as in visually observe their surroundings inside his "darkness''. Just go ahead and read the issue again please, you will notice that nobody was actually blinded by the darkness. Everyone was capable of seeing in it. To remind you, and the voters.

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1. Atom Smasher sees normally and builds barricades around Possessed humans 2. Atom Smasher and Faith both agree that this feat is outside of Obsidian's normal abilities.

I don't see any leeway here for your argument. I offer simple and irrefutable proof of people seeing in the darkness. With their eyes. Not my fault you are focusing on what they are talking about (not succumbing to their nightmares)

Bright Light Issue

Oh, i get it.. You wanna scream "PIS" about the part that you don't like.. Interesting. See, there is a reason that fact remains. And that is the fact that it happened in the exact chapter you are using as the source for most of your feats. Possessed heroes were freed by blasts of light. Simple as that. You can't ignore the part where Obsidian loses and how it happens, because it is crucial to how the fight goes.

So, let's first show scans of light frees people from Obsidian's possession.

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Very simple, very straightforward. Very obvious.

Now, if you chose to ignore the entire story line because it is, in your opinion, PIS i could understand. But if you want to use his high ends from the story line and demand we IGNORE how he lost, that is a whole different thing.

Now, let's explain why Dr. Fate was possessed. First of all, that was Hector and it is pretty soon after he became Dr. Fate. The reason he succumbed to the darkness was the fact that he was in a very bad place in his life. His entire family died recently and he simply didn't have strength to fight there anymore. So, to explain it bluntly, it was not Dr. Fate that succumbed it was Hector Hall. In, fact, Dr. Fate Portion of the equation later simply dispelled it.

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1.2. Explains why he fell under control 3. Breaks out

And lastly, let's show how light hurts Obsidian Himself. (and yes, sometimes he manages to defend himself, but it is still a weakness, and a way to beat him).

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I believe 8 scans should suffice, especially since they are taken from various points of Obsidian's publishing history, proving that it is not a "one time", or "One Period" thing. 1. Hawkman in Hawkman vol 3 32 uses electricity as his weakness 2. Repeats that in 33. 3. 4. Alan Scott's light harms him 5. UV Light harms him 6. Jade's light harms him 7. Light depowers him

Also, there is a reason i stressed the fact that he was operating above his normal levels in JSA 7 -9 since, later, when he fought his father again he got a proper ass whoopin'

How Arion Beats Obsidian

Now, to show Arion using Light, and Arion fighting Shadows.

See, as the son of the Gods of Light and Darkness he is well versed in using both. But, since he chose his allegiance to be to that of Light, he usually fights the Darkness, which makes him a perfect opponent for Obsidian.

I will first show how much light he can create by drawing energy from stars.

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Now, let's get a bit more direct. Arion once fought a mage who used shadows, much like Obsidian, in fact, the usage looks EXACTLY the same, down to summoning your self doubts and nightmares after consuming you. Let's show you.

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1-4. Shows how similar this is to Obsidian. It looks and works exactly the same. 5. Arion breaks through using white magic which he claims, counters Darkness.

In fact, Dark Majistra, after he destroyed her form as an embodiment of a star, sought out to control forces of the Darkworld and use darkness against him and he beat her in her own realm, once more proving Light Conquers darkness.

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Not to mention, when he was confronted by Etrigan, Phantom Stranger and Wonder Woman he was able to beat them. I only use this feat though because he has shown the ability to ignite anyone he wants with a flick of his wrist and proves that even Wonder Woman's speed is not enough against his spells.

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And since igniting lights you up, i see it as a good way to weaken/beat Obsidian.

Immortality

First of all, the tourney itself dictates that all characters must be killable. I mean, you do know Darkseid can't be killed either right?

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But, for the tourney, he is killable, as was Thanos, or any other character with Hax level immortality. That would include your team as well.

I see you like using empty statements like saying Obsidian is above space and time. Well, first of all, being above Time is prohibited in this tourney so please scratch that part off.

Using empty statements (skippable for voters):

Let's see what is said about Darkseid:

These are from Final Crisis. Where he is a multiversal entity.

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But since you have used Obsidian's own statement to claim he is above space and time, let's use Darkseid's own statement (or rather of an avatar) about his own power

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And Arion?

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Universal? Or, according to Zatanna, nigh limitless?

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How about we don't do that here?

The Variety Argument:

Let's get crackin'.

Telekinesis:

First of all, let's start by debunking your best TK feat. The moon busting. It never happened. Literally. It was a dream.

It is from X-Man #45 and it was an induced nightmare. Apparently, basic tech is all that is needed to hijack his mind.

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Time to wake up.

So, now we know that your best feat never happened, but how about i show some of Darkseid's best TK feats?

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1. Restrains the entire LOSH 2. Restrains Superman and Infinity Man.

Maybe Darkseid's TK is not as accurate as Nate's but it is stronger. Definitely strong enough to stop Nate's attacks. Not to mention, once more, that my team will be on the offensive here.

Telepathy:

Well, this will be short. Arguably the strongest Telepath in DC is Martian Manhunter. And both of my team members have mind controlled him.

But to actually have resistance is also important. So let's see what the writer who wrote the battle between Martian Manhunter and Darkseid said when asked as to why didn't J'onn use TP on Darkseid:

No Caption Provided

But my favorite feat of Darkseid's telepathy (as i presume everybody else's) comes from the Great Darkness Saga story line when he controlled 3 BILLION Daxamites.

Now, here's the kicker. A lot of people believe Darkseid was amped during GDS but the reverse is actually true. Darkseid was weakened.

I never planned on using his TP against your team since it is not in his main character to do so. In his character is to blast you with Omega Beams. And that is exactly what would happen. This just shows that you are not as far ahead as you believe you are.

Your ridiculous Obsidian claims

This is why you sound like DarkRaiden. He is not omnipresent and he has never materialized himself inside of an opponent.

In fact, in order to enter his opponents he uses their bodily orifices even though he was able to Materialize from the shadow.

Also, worth noting that he only managed to cover Gog's eyes in Darkness. He was not able of hurting him or doing anything truly significant here. Why didn't he rip Gog to shreds from the inside?

So, if you want me to even debate how my team could survive Obsidian ripping them apart from the inside first you have to prove he can/will do it by posting feats of him doing so in character. (or at all, for that matter).

And as far as Arion's speed goes, i have shown Arion easily dominating Wonder Woman while she was bragging about how fast she is. And face it, WW is faster than Obsidian.

Not to mention his very own Spider Sense that allows him to react to incomind danger perfectly.

No Caption Provided

And this was him shortly after coming back to Earth, he held almost no memories at all.

Your reply to "for the Voters"

Mind Control

until you show the context of it... what i said still remains the same.. you can't refute it from a simple mind control .. from just a mention of a word 'spell' without any context behind it.. it's simply how you didn't accept the precognition from simply having it mentioned within his power set .. we had to actually go through all those explanations to clear it up.

Actually, i didn't accept your Precog claim because you have to have a feat to show exactly what it can do.

This is different. We saw MMH being under control and Arion explaining that he did it with a spell. That is pretty damn irrefutable and obvious.

So, once more, let's explain. You put Precog as his power, i didn't say he didnt have it, i asked for feats to show what he can see.

I put mind control as one of the spells and shown you Martian Manhunter being controlled by his spell. I also shown you multiple New Gods being controlled by his spell and him calling them nothing.

Out of character and Perks

excuse me?!!! ... i never called you out for anything like that ... you got a perk.. prep.. which can allow you to assess the situation, also a full knowledge to know your enemies.. you have a way to see future.. so it is not so far fetched for you to device out of character moves... but the thing is... i also have prep perk .. my team can also know enemy attacks by instantaneous feed of the future (better than looking through a crystal ball once) .. so it is not far fetched for them to device out of character moves either....

but i was just surprised of you calling me out on 'out of character' thing like that (you mentioned at least 5 times in the previous post) .. that's why i told you to look in the mirror .. becoz you are attempting even more out of character moves than what i'm going for .. :/

Now i know you are not closely reading my posts. The perk that allows me to use out of character moves is not prep. It is perfect teamwork. You said Arion amping himself is not in character, but it is in character for Darkseid to do so, and with Perfect Teamwork they would work together and amp themselves. Simple as that.

That little Obsidian Rant

wait what?.. why are you putting your words in my mouth?... i never said things like that... i just simply showed you a way of attack .. and wanted a logical reply with feats, of why it won't work

you know what?.. it's way tough to deal with obsidian.. if you can't show darkseid dealing with him.. maybe they should have him.. not as a strategist, but the main attack weapon ..

i fail to understand why you would bring out such an out of context talk in a CaV .. -_-

See, for the Voters part is not actually a part of the debate. Here i don't debate feats or post scans, my point here is to tell them what i believe they should focus on.

Wanna know how Darkseid deals with Obsidian? Omega Beams. Simple as that. He can Depower Him, move his soul to a metal ball, destroy him, burn him. Hell, he could even cage him like he did the Olympian gods.

TL:DR for the Voters:

1. I have proven to actually have great future looking feats. His only ONE is flawed in a myriad of ways. He had to use a special crystal, had help from Madeline Pryor, Couldn't identify his opponent, and even didn't get details right. (if you would visit my earlier post about that)

2. He wants you to ignore Weaknesses of Obsidian. Insists of using only high end feats and then claims that Low Ends (from the same issue, mind you) are PIS and shouldn't be used. I have demonstrated in 15 scans how light screws over Obsidian. Both returning him to material form and destroying his shadow attacks.

3. I have shown Arion fight shadow creatures before. Even fighting shadows with EXACTLY the same abilities as Obsidian and winning.

4. He has no real response to his team being Magically controlled. Or even simply slowed down for but a moment so they could get blasted by Omega Beams.

5. He used out of context cropped scan to tell us Obsidian is above space and time, that he is omnipresent and so on. he also used out of context DREAM Nate had about destroying the world.

6. Focus on how this fight would actually go. My team, armed with full knowledge and longer prep than his. Know where his team will be and what they will do. Have means to stop them in their track and promptly execute them.

7. He wants you to focus on the fact he has presented more ways of attacking my team. I ask, how is that relevant? I only need one. especially if he didn't offer any way to survive that one.

My strategy is clean and simple. I have full knowledge. Use a spell to stop his team in their tracks. Blast them with Omega Beams - Profit.

Clean, simple, and it works.

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#34 Edited by Vertigo- (17491 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#35 Posted by Monarch_Chronicle (2869 posts) - - Show Bio

T4f

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#36 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3703 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for voting please

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#39 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

sorry sorry .. i was just going to notify this one .... i wrote the post almost 90%.. and chrome crashed.. will post within tomorrow.

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#41 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

Post in progress (for the 3rd time -_-)

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#44 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Will reply soon, but in the scan it is stryfe, not onslaught, i asked of you to prove your claim it is onslaught and that he was blocking the vision.

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#45 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Will reply soon, but in the scan it is stryfe, not onslaught, i asked of you to prove your claim it is onslaught and that he was blocking the vision.

OMG .. accidentally deleted the post ... this is not happening .. a nightmare ... hold on a bit.. i'll try to recover it..

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#46 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

well, we're doing not much except repeating our points atm.... it's already been a full sized CaV, lets bring an end to it.

i won't be doing much, except strengthening my points precisely here, if you don't add much points afterwards, i'm ok to go onto voting after your closure.

Your concerns (repeat)

Nate's Precog:

Actually, that feat you are showing is from X-Man 39 and in his future he saw his fight against Stryfe, not Onslaught. Really, i got no idea where did you get that it was Onslaught in his vision. Not to mention his vision didn't show him being absorbed, but rather exploding and destroying a planet. So most of your paragraph here is plain wrong.

i don't know if you're purposefully ignoring or not... but what i actually said is, the person he couldn't fully see in his future vision (though he could see the outlines), was onslaught, not stryfe.. because onslaught was 'psionically' stronger than him, and was 'blocking' his vision.

anyway .. yes, he saw him bursting out, taking the planet with him if he goes out of control, that just shows that, he's fully capable of seeing probable futures aswell. i don't know how that helps you though.

Also, any proof that he can't look into the future of anyone stronger than him? That sounds weird.

not stronger than him ... 'psionically' stronger than him to block his vision.

i don't know why you'd question a simple feat like that, maybe it's one of the few options you have to gain at least something in the battle?...

even in pre shaman state, he could focus and see the future of his, and even an entire area,

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and by the time he was shaman... it was already a passive ability, which could autonomously show him the future without doing anything.... as it's constantly showing him future glimpse... it'd be very awkward to show whatever he sees every moment.

however, a novice (mimic) received a portion of his powers, and started seeing every details of his future, without doing anythingwhich means, nate's precog shows the detailed future to whoever wields it, as a passive ability, without them doing anything.

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and your points is.... we will completely ignore this feat, as it was not nate who's featured here (despite him being waaaaaaay more potent on using his own powers than mimic.. lol), despite the fact, that the ability showed here, works 'autonomously', and 'irrespective' of the wielder.

i don't see the point of stretching it.. he only needs to see what happens in the near future here, not his entire life (which are the above feats).. and not even it needs to be a full detailed ones like the aboves :/

obsidian's darkness:

you take that natural darkness part way too seriously... are you really that concerned about your members falling to darkness.. like the darkness we see at the night?.. lol

the light issue is stretching a bit here... yes, it have affected him, when he turned evil.. i never denied that, hell it was a part of the storyline itself .. but it does feel like PIS .. since he's no longer evil .. and can actually turn the light itself into darkness...

straight up absorbs the green lantern's light (which is a hell lot more bright than a flashlight XD), which was a powerful attack to hurt jade... what's more ... he CONSUMED the LIGHT ITSELF into darkness .... and even that .. the light.. which is the embodiment of will power (a green lantern's light)... so much for breaking out of focused darkness possession with will power and light

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he can even shield others from lights .. by covering them in darkness

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the question isn't that i'm saying light hurting him is PIS.. the question is ... you're ignoring the entire feats of.. him straight out dominating waaaay more intense lights than say.. a laser torch, or a hand bomb... maybe him turning evil had something to do with being affected by darkness?.. we don't know but a person, who can turn lights itself into darkness, ain't have a weakness to it anymore.. that's really prominent.

it was not Dr. Fate that succumbed it was Hector Hall. In, fact, Dr. Fate Portion of the equation later simply dispelled it.

hmm? ... did you really work this out yourself?... dr. fate was the one who was succumbed to it... he was already wearing the helmet when it happened.... yes.. fate's powers somehow fought it through will afterwards.. but it'll be too late if something like that happens here..... lets just point out a portion of the scans you showed

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it was the mind of the helmet.. i.e. the mind of the fate which was affected .... so.. really.. posting some huge a** scans doesn't prove your point... use the relevant ones properly.

Also, there is a reason i stressed the fact that he was operating above his normal levels in JSA 7 -9 since, later, when he fought his father again he got a proper ass whoopin'

my point never was to say he'd destroy green lanterns everytime they battle .. lol .. but it did happen, and we can't ignore it...

here, alan just temporarily overpowered in construct fight (ass whooping? this?.. really?.. lol, then what'd you call what obsidian did to alan and kyle together?.. moping the floor with them? XD).. but it exactly shows what i'm talking about here... obsidian's darkness didn't fade or withdrew itself from the presence of those huge a** light show.. he literally had to be fought off.. light ifn't the key for you to win here.

specially when obsidian is already present all around you, and will take BOTH of your characters in possession.. who's gonna flash the light?

and you failed to show ANY will power feat of your characters to say they can actually break out of the possession themselves.

Killable:

First of all, the tourney itself dictates that all characters must be killable. I mean, you do know Darkseid can't be killed either right?

But, for the tourney, he is killable, as was Thanos, or any other character with Hax level immortality. That would include your team as well.

Who said any of my characters are immortals? o.O

of course they are killable .... hell nate even officially died once...... HOWEVER

Killing =/= destroying the body

specially when nate does not have a real body to begin with (you have to kill/absorb/disable his psionic being to kill or get rid of him), and obsidian does not have a body in his shadow form either (same goes for him)

what if i had a ghost character (i.e who doesn't have a body.. same like these)? you'd have said you already won as it's already dead (it's a ghost) and doesn't have a body? o.O

perhaps you forgot that there are other ways to win than killing?. i know your team can't achieve that.. but 80% of my team's attack methods mentioned here, can achieve that.. by simply incaping them or knocking them out, controlling them.

btw.. darkseid can only reform his body. same as thanos.. not really immortal.

other things about obsidian:

Using empty statements

How about we don't do that here?

the statements you showed, can not live upto the claims .. that is why they are false, hyperboles.. however.. obsidian indeed defies logic by evading many things, which should've affected him... so that part isn't fully false.... though it's not really a key need in this CaV .. maybe u're pointing it out, just to have something, you can argue against? :/

I see you like using empty statements like saying Obsidian is above space and time. Well, first of all, being above Time is prohibited in this tourney so please scratch that part off.

i don't recall being above time is prohibited .. i recall manipulating time is prohibited.. and i don't think anyone is manipulating time here..

Your ridiculous Obsidian claims

He is not omnipresent

holy cr*p ... i'm not 'claiming' anything ... i'm 'showing' you bruh ....

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he IS darkness/void/nothingness, whatever you can think of .. and is omnipresent inside the darkness ... however .. it's only true in his 'SHADOW FORM'.. which he'd be using here.

and.. as a matter of fact.. you showed it yourself.. that obsidian's shadow can enter and physically affect you from inside (in this case, blinded him, what if he actually uses constructs inside?)..... as he's in 'shadow form', and already present all around them ... he doesn't need to touch like he did in his 'non shadow form'

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he tried to possess him with darkness.. that's why the darkness needed to devour him ...

So, if you want me to even debate how my team could survive Obsidian ripping them apart from the inside first you have to prove he can/will do it by posting feats of him doing so in character. (or at all, for that matter).

ahh.. yes.. your famous 'in character', 'out of character' argument

you see, our teams can see the future.. mine can do so autonomously .. so they'd already know which things would actually affect the opponent team... and would try them out... in this case, it's just one of the MANY ways present, which your team can't counter.

And as far as Arion's speed goes, i have shown Arion easily dominating Wonder Woman while she was bragging about how fast she is. And face it, WW is faster than Obsidian.

ok.. i've seen a quantifiable light speed feat of obsidian in his shadow form .. show us the quantifiable speed WW used.. and arion countered.. which could say he can react at light speed?. surely u're not saying WW moving = light speed.. right? becoz i don't recall anyone, who moves at their top speed every time.

Not to mention his very own Spider Sense that allows him to react to incomind danger perfectly.

i don't think spider sense can help you when we're talking about attacking as soon as the battle starts. it doesn't improve reaction time, it gives a little precog to react earlier.

other misc replies:

Now i know you are not closely reading my posts. The perk that allows me to use out of character moves is not prep. It is perfect teamwork. You said Arion amping himself is not in character, but it is in character for Darkseid to do so, and with Perfect Teamwork they would work together and amp themselves. Simple as that.

Team Work in NOT the perk which allows them to use out of character moves.. it is the PREP perk and the KNOWLEDGE perk which does so ... darkseid NEVER use out of character moves if he's not preparing for a fight beforehand and know about the opponent..

in this case .. both our teams can see the upcoming future.. and know about the opponent.. both have preps to cook up plans .. so both can think up out of character moves... as simple as that

moving on.......

Telekinesis:

First of all, let's start by debunking your best TK feat. The moon busting. It never happened. Literally. It was a dream.

i don't think i recall i've ever said he actually busted up the moon... i think i said something like this

"even pre shaman.. his tk was apparently strong enough to crush a falling moon"

apparently strong enough to crush a falling moon =/= crushed a falling moon i think.. don't you?

the projections tech gnomes gives.. are real live projections.. i.e. what would've happened if happen in reality ... so the feat is not actually far off from that.

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the reason of the feats i showed were, nate can apply that tremendous telekinesis at a molecular level and even inside your brains .. ongoing electro current.... i don't think darkseid has any resistance to that.. and you purposefully ignored the application to compare the raw telekinesis power (which, isn't even a quantifiable feat in the darkseid's scans you showed)

My concerns (repeat)

darkseid:

Disintegrating=/= Reality warping

wow .. nice, i thought you would say something else.. that's what i was trying to say .. omega beams can disintegrate.. not delete erase someone from reality .... deleting someone from reality means.. they never existed in the reality.. no part of them, i'e souls, existence would be present in the reality... which, omega beams can't accomplish .. and it's not within tourney rules either.

He could place your team's life forces into inanimate objects.

Or he could straight up depower your team, (also not reality warping).

these.. only if they can actually harm them .... i don't recall omega beams hitting and harming any omnipresent (inside darkness) shadow.. or a pure psionic being .... do you?

about his telepathy....

i don't believe you're taking in the statement too seriously ... coz statements are something, which will not help you

nate's psi potential is unrivaled in ANY REALITY

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i believe you're not saying darkseid could actually match the top tp of marvel are you?

But my favorite feat of Darkseid's telepathy (as i presume everybody else's) comes from the Great Darkness Saga story line when hecontrolled 3 BILLION Daxamites.

Now, here's the kicker. A lot of people believe Darkseid was amped during GDS but the reverse is actually true. Darkseid was weakened.

not only a non standard darkseid .. but you're actually molding the feat .... he was FAR stronger than normal darkseid ..... he got weaker ..than that stronger version (not weaker than normal darkseid).. that is why he lost control

and you're actually trying to match feats with a telepath .. who can cripple even the most powerful telepaths mentally...

sensed and dragged out prof x's mind from the astral plane, and materialized into the real world (in his pre shaman rookie form)

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prof x was even unsure if he's mentally alright.. after just a brief encounter with rookie nate mentally ... who was being eten up by his own powers at the time

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he.. even pre shaman .. was the strongest psionic prof has ever encountered.

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a guy.. who can actually ripple the psionic plane with his psionic.. same plane which empowers the entire marvel verse psionics.

and this is the same prof x... who can briefly stalemate an enraged phoenix in mental battle

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who could hear the voices of the people of an entire galaxy

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he got inside Galactus Psi shields and forced 9 billion skrull inside his mind. and he did it all the way from the moon.

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this guy.. actually finds a rookie nate, the most powerful psionic he have ever faced (note, he already faced dark phoenix by then)

it's not false... as, apparently, his psionic output is exactly what rivals that of the dark phoenix (measured by dr. moira's instruments)

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and the feat which he performed against the professor... well, that, was something, which even phoenix (as a matter of fact, no marvel telepath ever in history) was able to perform.

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darkseid does not hold any candle to this power unfortu'nate'ly :P

and you kinda confessed that yourself aswell

I've got no doubt Nate is a stronger telepath which is why i am glad i am not engaging him in TP battle

arion:

The star that was moved was put to the place where Arion was when he was a star himself. (Being the son of gods at one point he existed as a star until he was needed on earth again, when he came back Ahri'Ahnn - His star, was no more). So, with that in mind, that star is now where His father put it. Moving a star is quite a permanent thing, don't you think?

Also, since Arion can use crystal balls to get any information he wants it would be ridiculously easy for him to find where on Earth that star is shining right now.

i don't know.. i'm not assuming .. you are saying it.. so show something to make it believable...

i asked for the range of arion.. i never saw him seeing or going anything/anywhere at universal range.

Now, he needs that exact star to AMP himself over his levels. But with Light being his powersource he can actually sustain his magic using regular starlight.

FALSE

that is the exact next incident of his father bringing out the star... he's even thanking his father for it.. :/

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why would you make up feats? :/

moving on to the shield part

Well, it is on you to prove your team can phase through magic. Not on me. But other than that, using Astral Plane to dimension walk is not allowed in this tourney as you eloquently debated in the PM.

erm... when you claim something (that it can stop anything) .. it is upon you to prove it.. not the other way around... you showed the shield stopping a brute like superman.. then claim it can stop beings without even need of a body (i.e phase through).. who can also use teleportation or portals to go around.. lol .. funny

something to cheer on

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My shield point is quite relevant and useful. I understand if you don't see it that way, but in that case, feel free to ignore it. Also, Obsidian is NOT omnipresent. He is capable of Shadow Walking and can expand his existence, but he is not omnipresent as he always makes himself a body to fight.

he is actually .. in his shadow form .... he only needs to materialize.. when fighting in the light (i.e in absence of darkness) ... or, needs to do physical damage (for which, he needs to make himself physical) .. he's not starting up here like that.. i already said.. he'd be in his shadow form .. omnipresent in the darkness.

moving on to the mind control part

2. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't, but then again, MMH never showed any resistance to Magic so i don't see how he could resist a spell

3.4. I am not assuming anything. Arion does not have telepathy as such. His only power is MAGIC. And he said, on that exact panel, that he used a spell on Martian FORCING him to do his bidding (in this case, bring him to Hawkman)

he showed mind control here.. or at least insisting a mind ... that is a telepathy feat.. no one said a magician can't have telepathy (unless you have proof that he definitely doesn't have telepathy).. it happened off panel.. and you're taking it as whatever you feel would suit your argument... we have NO IDEA about HOW it happened....

look here...

you're saying this

So, to recap, it is not telepathy, it is a mind control spell, or mind control magic if you will. You need to show Magic resistance feats to prove your team would be immune to it.

and in the section you labelled as 'telepathy' .. you say this..

Well, this will be short. Arguably the strongest Telepath in DC is Martian Manhunter. And both of my team members have mind controlled him.

despite the fact that arguably the strongest telepath in DC is starro the conqueror, you're taking arion's off panel feat as a telepathy feat here....

you can't bank your luck on an off panel feat my friend.. and definitely can't mold the feat to suit your objectives wherever necessary.

Why you'll lose

your attacks have no way to harm my team:

1)

darkseid's omega beams can't do jack to a person entirely made out of psionics

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nor to a void/nothingness/shadow .. without a body and who's also omnipresent inside the darkness

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

nate can actually bend around and control the omega beams because of his uber powered energy manipulation..

2)

and as for the two methods you proposed to 'phase' or 'delay' my character for a 'microsecond' to get hit by omega beams (which will do nothing)

And, once more, i don't even need Arion to completely control your team. I just need them to slow down for a microsecondand get killed by Omega Beams.

you are hoping on a COMPLETE OFF PANEL feat to accomplish this?.... you don't know how it happened .. you don't know if MMH tried to fight it off or not... you don't know if he got MMH by surprise or not.. all we see is a mind control.. and all we know is.. nate is a far stronger in mind strength than arion.. i've acknowledged the feat at the very first post of mine after you showed it... this is what i said

now.. he might've gotten MMH off guard, it doesn't matter, it's still a good feat, but can you give me the context on how exactly he applied his mind control on MMH?

however.. this feat isn't enough to say he can even phase nate for a nanosecond ...... not to mention obsidian and nate are faster than arion on the draw... arion would be attacked before he get the chance to attack.

3)

as i showed.. obsidian doesn't go away by light .. certainly not when he's not evil anymore .. he can actually convert light into darkness, i mean, the earth was well covered in broad daylight in the first place too before he devoured it in darkness ... using light, can't spot obsidian in any way... especially when you have no way to actually deal with him

you have no way to counter a lot of attacks (ohh how i'm loving to repeat the same points you can't answer to :P):

the array of variety

you have not given ANY defense against the very first line of attacks i used.. only argument you provided against.. is obsidian's shadow possession... which i think.. didn't go in your favor (look above ;))..

let me just remind you of what i said

1) The fine tuned telekinesis:

nate can freeze your entire team in a statue state by stopping the electro-current in their brains... just like how he did it to a room full of people .. when he was just a teenager rookie.. without the control over his powers (means .. in shaman form... it won't even be a bother to him)

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Take a note, that this is NOT telepathy, but actually telekinesis used on the electro current passing inside the brain ..... so, having telepathy or telepathic resistance have nothing to do with this ... also .. before asking me on how this can affect a bunch of super powered beings ... i'll ask you to show me how their brain's electro current is any different from a normal human .. coz this technique has nothing to do with durability, physical prowess or other super powers .. not only you have to show the difference of their brain's electro current, but also .. if they can overpower shaman nate's VAST telekinetic powers (i'd like you to challenge this) to gain the control.

in a statue state, they'll be vulnerable to just about any attack.....

2) Telepathy + energy manipulation, balance of the uber:

The uber telepath can indeed combine his vast energy manipulation power with his vast telepathic powers.

the guy can drain out your member's brain energy to make you guys an empty shell without a working mind (i.e no energy left for the mind to work). and he'd be powered up in return, with your team's brain energy

here he drains all the the brain energy of a bunch of powerful telepaths through the astral plane and renders them.... empty. those telepaths were assigned by dr. mccoy and mystique, to find nate.

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Take a note. if you only have energy manipulation/resistance, then it'll not help, since in actuality, he's draining the energy of the mind through the astral plane, which is a psionic ability to begin with. on the other hand, only having telepathy/resistance will not help either, since he's draining out an actual energy out of your mind (see what happened with the above telepaths). so my guess would be, although not confirmed. if you have the ability to manipulate both, or resistance to both, then you might resist it. but then again. even after that, can you MATCH the power of the mighty X-Man to not get drained? i very much doubt it.

now on top of this ... let me add some more

1) telepathy:

i think it's safe to assume you already know about it as you confessed here

I've got no doubt Nate is a stronger telepath which is why i am glad i am not engaging him in TP battle

.. and also .. even the pre shaman feat i gave is enough to say about it i think .. saving me of posting more of the rather unnecessary feats ... it's evident that nate can solo your entire team with telepathy

2) telekinesis:

the guy can break down your body from the microbial level

detects and destroys individual microbs from the sea.. while holding up millions of gallons of sea water ... even in his rookie pre shaman days

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and how strong of a telekinesis?... lets give an idea of pre shaman level of telekinesis

divides the sea in half to find a ship wreckage (notice how he was bleeding in both the feats.. as then, using his power was actually weakening and killing him.. it was just a tiny portion of power of what he can achieve with his true power)

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even pre shaman.. his tk was apparently strong enough to crush a falling moon

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3) omnipresence man:

as you already saw.. obsidian is already present everywhere... even inside your body's parts and their darkness (so much for even the concept of your attuned shield)... he can construct through darkness.. making it diamond hard

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how tough if we gauge his darkness constructs? ... well .. tougher than top tier green lantern constructs.. so much.. that it can stomp two top tier green lanterns at once

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he can create something like swords out of those tough shadows

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can chock and crush

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the guy is present everywhere.. inside and out of you .. he can rip open.. blast through .. choke/crush your body, vital parts, insides ... and he can do it from inside out... right at the beginning of the battle...

and how fast he can react to do it? .. he's literally faster than jay garrick flash in every way.. in his shadow form (light speed combat feat)

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so your characters .. at least arion would go down at the very beginning if this takes place ... he doesn't have the speed.. not the physical durability to endure this.. and i don't think darkseid will fare any good either.. is there any durability/cutting resistance feat of his body insides?

i think it will be hard enough for you to digest for now.. want an antacid? :D

Conclusion:

i don't have much to add here.. it was always gonna stay the same as the opener... :/

  1. there are just many many ways i can see your team can be taken down with
  2. i don't see many ways for your team to take down mine

it's just a simple exhibition of versatility here, nothing else. and in that regard, my team has well beaten yours.

the thing is .. your team is banking on the failures of our members .. i.e. powers not being used... not being able to use abilities.. not using abilities despite having them (out of character cry).... you even then had to post more of my team's characters than yours .. lol .. but despite that, you're finding difficulties coping up with the versatility

on the other hand.. i don't need to refute any ability of your team... my team is versatile in such a way.. that they can take the best of your team, and would still come out as the victor... so, it's a losing battle you are fighting really.

i rest my case at the capable hands of the readers here.

now.. i hope you won't add any new points in your closure.. but do inform me after posting it, so i can take a look at it before we go onto votings.


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#47 Posted by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

yess .. got it :)

as for stryfe or onslaught. it doesn't matter in the point i'm saying here, because even stryfe could be considered psionically stronger than nate at that stage.

but why i'm indicating that, is because, despite being eaten up by his power, whom he couldn't see clearly, was another person.. not stryfe.. i.e the demon came after that period.. onslaught .. see how he's talking about cable, and stryfe here.. and that 'other' one who he couldn't properly see

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stryfe is not the one whom he saw as a body outline.

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#48 Edited by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Still doesn't prove the claim that his premonition was stopped by an other psionic, or that it is even possible.

Online
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#49 Edited by ssj_god (16749 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god: Still doesn't prove the claim that his premonition was stopped by an other psionic, or that it is even possible.

umm.. but we're seeing that happening .. onslaught was a psionic (at that moment, stronger than nate), and it saw an outliner of him.. and it never happened ever again :/

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#50 Posted by Chimeroid (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj_god:Time to end this. I believe i didn't add anything previously unknown to this debate, so i hope we can open votes now.

Closer:

Nate's Precog

Simple as this - You failed to provide feats to prove what Nate could see. You claim he constantly, passively, sees the future. Which is outright crap. To prove your point you have shown me Omega failing to cope with copied powers. That is still not a feat for Nate and it definitely doesn't show what Nate can find out.

Your claims:

i don't know if you're purposefully ignoring or not... but what i actually said is, the person he couldn't fully see in his future vision (though he could see the outlines), was onslaught, not stryfe.. because onslaught was 'psionically' stronger than him, and was 'blocking' his vision.

The vision was about Sryfe
The vision was about Sryfe

Did you even read this? Seriously, it was Stryfe, The vision occured in X Man 39 and it was about the future that happened in X-Man 46. And it was Stryfe. Onslaught was nowhere in the story.

see how he's talking about cable, and stryfe here.. and that 'other' one who he couldn't properly see

That other was Stryfe himself. Want proof? Here (read the bottom box - Bio armored other, so similar to him. Seriously, read the issues you want to debate about

Also, you failed to prove anything was "blocking" visions. That is bollocks. It wasn't said anywhere it is just you making stuff up. I was not ignoring anything, but your claim is just sooo.. Wrong.

Also, that one other he could't see

i don't know why you'd question a simple feat like that, maybe it's one of the few options you have to gain at least something in the battle?...

even in pre shaman state, he could focus and see the future of his, and even an entire area,

I am not questioning it, i flat out debunked it right in the freakin' opener. And i have explained all the reasons your scan is flawed. I guess you would have known that have you actually read what i wrote.

Obsidian's weakness:

Let's start with what was definitely countered and what you WON'T DO. You CANNOT cover my team in darkness before the fight starts. That is attacking during prep and it is not allowed.The strategy worked before only because your opponent didn't have his prep, i do.

To go on with what was definitely proven - Light dissipates Obsidian's control over people. That is 100% undeniably proven. as that is how it works.

You say my numerous scans are PIS, but your handful is definitely the real deal? Why? Because they are higher end? Or because that is what you want to believe? I have shown light affecting, and weakening him in so many scans that it is ridiculous, and i have many more.

here, alan just temporarily overpowered in construct fight (ass whooping? this?.. really?.. lol, then what'd you call what obsidian did to alan and kyle together?.. moping the floor with them? XD).. but it exactly shows what i'm talking about here... obsidian's darkness didn't fade or withdrew itself from the presence of those huge a** light show.. he literally had to be fought off.. light ifn't the key for you to win here.

Are you now just hoping voters wont click on the link?

Let me post the link again.

http://imgur.com/a/XHZyD

The fight was crazily one sided and Todd was left unconsciouss.

And i never aimed for light to be my way to win. But simply to weaken Obsidian and outright stop his possession. It works and my team has full knowledge.

specially when obsidian is already present all around you, and will take BOTH of your characters in possession.. who's gonna flash the light?

and you failed to show ANY will power feat of your characters to say they can actually break out of the possession themselves.

Once more, not true. You are not allowed to blind my team with darkness during prep or to attack them before the battle starts. , in fact, my team has a full hour of prep alone with full knowledge.

Second claim. Even more crap. I have shown that Darkseid's will is too strong for MMH and i have shown Arion flat out resisting the exact effect you want to use with Obsidian's darkness.

Out of character plans

ahh.. yes.. your famous 'in character', 'out of character' argument

Yeah, i invented it. Not like it was the staple of debating on comicvine for years now. And not like it is literally, the most important piece of debating. It is not only about what your character CAN do, it is about what he WILL do. And Obsidian has never did what you claim right now. Simple as that. In fact, we don't even know if he is able to do so since he never did anything similar to that.

Speed

ok.. i've seen a quantifiable light speed feat of obsidian in his shadow form .. show us the quantifiable speed WW used.. and arion countered.. which could say he can react at light speed?. surely u're not saying WW moving = light speed.. right? becoz i don't recall anyone, who moves at their top speed every time.

You have shown one scan of Obsidian moving at light speed, but most of the time he is street level in speed. Hell, i have shown Hawkman stomping his little ass. But let me guess what you would want us to do with that. Ignore it to make him look better? Now, i don't mind accepting he is lightspeed at his top speeds.

But your argument works both ways here. Becoz, i don't recall ANYONE (including Obsidian) who moves at their top speed every time. Not to mention there is nothing to prove he is faster than Wonder Woman and WW was proven to be slower than Arion where it mattered when the combat started.

Arion and stars:

that is the exact next incident of his father bringing out the star... he's even thanking his father for it.. :/

Actually, His father only made ONE star closer. Now focus for a second and read the entire scan.

Or, better, i will just quote the part i was talking about. My bad for not drawing circles around text to make it easier for you to read.

"Every star in the heaven stabs his heart, filling him with Light and Life". The star his father brought forth to amp him was his own star. Not to mention the other scan i provided:

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Yes, one beam was from his father, but THOUSAND others came as power from the stars. This is simply how he works.

Mind control SPELL

Oh for goodness sake. you still claim it is TP even when it is explicitly said it is a spell. Here, let me show you one more time.

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So, to say it one more time. IT IS NOT TELEPATHY IT IS A SPELL. The fact the casting was off panel is completely IRRELEVANT since we can see that it WORKED.

Not to mention i have offered more than once instance, like when he controlled the New Gods.

So, when you say:

we have NO IDEA about HOW it happened

It only proves you have found a good way to avoid reading the scan. Since it clearly says it was a SPELL

Omega Beams:

You literally offer no response to Omega Beam attacks at your team. All you said is - My team is Energy and Shadow. Omega beams wont hit them.

When in fact, Omega Beams have hit intangible opponents, and i fail to see how they would survive Soul Manipulation attacks. (which i have also demonstrated), Or Depowering Attacks (also demonstrated). Hell, you have nothing to prove Obsidian would survive the most regular of Omega Beams as he was KOed by Alan Scott at least twice, and Alan<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Darkseid.

So, to reiterate. Obsidian dies in the instant this battle starts. He has nothing to save him from Omega Beams and every time he was exposed to light he had to materialize (and i have shown how bright a light Arion can make). OB have hit Intangible opponents before and they would do so again. Obsidian is dead from the get go.

Nate gets hit and either loses his powers, or his soul is moved to an inanimate object, like what happened to Cyborg Superman.

TK Counter

Wow, cant believe you are actually trying to justify the fact that you tried to use a dream sequence for a feat. He was asleep and he had a nightmare. It does not indicate his actual power levels.

Anyhow, i have shown Darkseid to have comparable, if not stronger, telekinesis than Nate. And, since my team has full knowledge of your team, and the future, Darkseid will know what TK attack to defend from using his own Telekinetic powers.

And while we are here, let's talk about your idea of redirecting omega beams.

Bending Omega Beams

Well, first of all, Omega Beams are far too fast for him to bend. And secondly, he is proven to be unable to actually bend powerful beam attacks. Let's show it

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Mountain level blast is clearly too much for him to bend, as we can see that he tried and failed. And these are not just straight forward beams, Darkseid already controls them. So he should not only be able to overpower and outreact the beams themselves, but also over power Darkseid's control over them.

Not to mention Omega Beams are far too fast for him to react to. I mean Pre Crisis Superman was unable to.

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Fault of your conclusions:

the thing is .. your team is banking on the failures of our members .. i.e. powers not being used... .not being able to use abilities.. not using abilities despite having them (out of character cry).....

you even then had to post more of my team's characters than yours .. lol .. but despite that, you're finding difficulties coping up with the versatility

No, i am explaining that your abilities don't work that way. Seriously, you are failing to actually debunk any of my claims, you just cling to repeating already countered claims like a robot.

Out of character is not a cry, it is a legitimate debating strategy. Your team is in character and they will ONLY do things that come in character for them. Simple as that.

Yes, i posted more scans about your team than about mine, because of your insincerity about your team. Or flat out ignorance (like claiming it was Onslaught in Nate's vision). It is called "debunking".

And lastly, i had no issues with your versatility. I have addressed every point you made, while you skillfully refused to actually confront my claims.

on the other hand.. i don't need to refute any ability of your team... my team is versatile in such a way.. that they can take the best of your team, and would still come out as the victor... .

Correction, you are unable of refuting abilities of my team. For instance, your only response to a mind control spell is claiming it is TP when it clearly is not.

How the fight will go

My team will not only have full knowledge of the powers your team possesses but they will also know your moves thanks to Arion. Bright light will force Obsidian to stay in his Physical form and Omega Beams will simply kill him in any of a myriad of ways they can. Then it is Arion and Darkseid vs Nate. A simple spell from Arion will stop Nate in place and Omega beams will follow and depower him/Put his soul in a metal ball.

For the Voters:

He still fails to offer proof of most of his claims. Because it simply doesn't exist.

He chooses to ignore my points of attack, which i don't mind, but then he went on to say he countered all of them. And the opposite, i went on in great detail completely demolishing his claims, and debunking his feats, and yet he ignores that and goes on saying that i offered no response to his attacks.

He even decides to defend the fact he used a "feat" that is literally just a nightmare Nate had.

He says i "cry "out of character"" and uses that like an argument about me doing something wrong. But doing nothing to prove that it is in character for his team to do so. In fact, seems like he agrees that they wouldn't but somehow thinks that is irrelevant.

@emperorthanos We should go for votes. This CaV has taken too long already.

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