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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2 of my make a team tourney.

@mr_ingenuity

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  • Nate Grey
  • Necrom
  • Reed Richards
  • 1 Hour of prep
  • Perfect Teamwork
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@geekryan

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  • Circe
  • Maxima
  • Enchantress (DC)
  • Full Knowldege
  • 1 Hour of prep

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No Time Manipulation
  4. No speed steal
  5. No reality warping
  6. No Power Copying/stealing.
  7. No BFR
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man. They cannot be amped either.
  9. Summons, constructs or other fodder are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Posted by Warlockmage (8448 posts) - - Show Bio

oof good luck Geekryan... word of advice look out for Necrom

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#3 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan:

Character Intros

Nate Grey aka X-Man

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Telekinesis

Nate's TK is the most versatile part of his powerset being that it can be used as a blunt instrument or surgical knife.

Telekinetically interrupting electrical impulses of a crowed to paralyze them.

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Redirects Jean Grey's TK

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Restraining & pinning Abomination to a wall.

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Nate TK shield withstands Tundra's stomp who was bigger than the surrounding mountains. Then Nate telekinetically blast Tundra off of him.

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Nate makes a dead alternate reality Forge speak by telekinetically controlling his neurons, & vocal cords.

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Fissures an alternate earth just to get a characters attention.

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Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

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Telepathy

Nate can hide his presence from other telepaths.

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PSI scans the planet.

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Nate telepathy is powerful enough to connect with virus microbes.

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By linking his mind to another he can learn months worth of information in an instant.

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Nate was even able to learn Qabiri's entire life story.

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Nate's presence on earth has been able to severely strain or take out weaker telepaths.

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Nate implanted his mind in every living creature on earth then later reformed as energy.

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Teleportation

Nate's capable of short range teleportation.

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Nate's long range teleportation allows him to travel the multiverse.

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He can even remotely teleport a character to an alternate earth.

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Precognition, Retrocognition & Psychometry

Mimic first comes into contact with Nate and starts seeing his future. Nate is far more advanced he has over 300 ways to see the future & can view multiple possible futures at a time.

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Nate coming into contact with a telepathic hive mind allowed him to see events he missed on 616 earth. Events pictured: Illuminati sending hulk to space, Civil War, Secret invasion, Dark Reign & even Osborne's plans for him.

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Psychometry is a subset of retrocognition & here is a basic explanation.

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Necrom

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Life Force Vampire

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Magic

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Anti-Phoenix

Telepathy

Superior to Rachel, while she isn't using the Phoenix.

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Psychic projection through multiverse convergence. Which was enough to block Rachel's telepathy (Rachel isn't using the Phoenix)

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Telekinesis, Strength & Durability

The feats are compiled within these scans so no need to post them multiple times.

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Reed Richards AKA Mister Fantastic

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2005 Handbook entry

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Intelligence

Reed's most notable ability in all of his publication has been his intelligence. But it isn't the fact that Reed is intelligent it's the fact that Reed is so intelligent that no other character in 616 compares. I have three examples of this & in recent years I would consider these examples Reeds best feats.

The Entity takes Reed back to before the big bang to recreate the universe. And while it has the power to do so it has no understanding on the grand scale how the universe operates. So it asks Reed to open his mind so he may help recreate the universe.

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Reed created his own universe with a paradox built into it. While it is finite it is also infinite.

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Then we have the bridge a machine capable of observing the multiverse. But Reed isn't simply looking through a telescope, no he's compressing the entire space time of universes to make them observable. With that it can download universes directly into his mind.

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Prep

I'll keep prep simple since there isn't anything worth exploiting.

My team having two high end telepaths and telekinetics will provided defences. Nate & Necrom by forming a telepathic link will first hide their team telepathically. Nate has shown he can hide his presence from other telepaths, make himself invisible telepathically and even erase memories of his existence. So by sending out constant telepathic commands my team will start the battle invisible to any mind. With that done Nate & Necrom can end their prep by creating a TK shield for the team that renders them invisible to light. So even if they're somehow telepathically detected by other telepaths (doubtful) they won't immediately be spotted or take any damaged.

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#8 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Nice opener! I'm currently in midterms but I should be able to have my post up by next weekend at the latest

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#9 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #1

Maxima

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Maxima's CV page

Powers/Abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Stamina/Endurance
  • Teleportation
  • Telekinesis
  • Telepathy
  • Ferrokinesis
  • Matter Manipulation
  • Optic Beams
  • Flight

Enchantress

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Enchantress' CV page

ET has allowed me to use both her Pre-52 and New-52 feats.

Powers/Abilities:

  • Magic
    • Energy Projection
    • Flight
    • Telepathy
    • Teleportation
    • Telekinesis
    • Elemental Control
    • Summoning
    • Necromancy
    • Healing
  • Superhuman Physicals (via magic)

Circe

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Circe's CV page

I've been allowed to use her New-52/Rebirth feats as well.

Powers/Abilities:

  • Immortality
  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Magic
    • Animal Transfiguration
    • Matter Manipulation
    • Energy Projection
    • Flight
    • Telepathy
    • Clairvoyance
    • Teleportation
    • Necromancy
    • Invisibility

Perks

My first perk is full knowledge. This gives my team complete knowledge of all your characters. My team will know everything your characters have ever done, whether it's about their history, their powers, their abilities, etc. Nothing your characters will do will be a surprise. Going into the fight, my team will know exactly what to expect.

Which leads me to my second perk: 1 hour of prep. This prep will take place on the battlefield, and I will use the prep to do a few things, which I will outline in a following section.

My Team vs. Your Team

My team consists of 2 extremely powerful and evil sorceresses and one psionic powerhouse. All three of my characters regularly contend with and/or beat high-tier superheroes, including members of the Justice League.

Maxima can send Pre-52 Superman flying with her hits. Superman is even impressed with her speed. She can also pretty much own Superman in H2H:

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Enchantress can beat Superman in a 1v1 fight... Although Superman is vulnerable to magic, the fact that Enchantress can even fight against Superman, who is insanely strong, fast, and durable, makes it impressive:

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Circe, on the other hand, regularly beats Wonder Woman with her magic and without much difficulty:

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She is strong enough to physically match WW as well:

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Based on scaling off their past opponents and due to the full knowledge perk, it will be unlikely for any of your team's attacks to even tag anyone on my team, and that's just based on our physicals. With teleportation and force fields, you will not be able to touch anyone on my team. My team vastly outclasses yours in physicals.

And if we want to get into the hax stuff, then bring it on, because with Enchantress, Circe, and Maxima, I have more than enough magic and psionic power to match or exceed anything your characters can do. Without mental attack immunity and molecular attack immunity, your team is completely screwed.

Before I get into my prep, I'll talk about the morals of my team.

Maxima has served as an adversary to Superman and a superhero working for the Justice League. She has killed in the past and won't hesitate to do so.

Enchantress is usually aligned with the evil side, although she has at times been considered an anti-hero as June Moone, her human persona. Enchantress has killed many times in the past and will not hesitate to do so in any combat situation.

Circe is the Goddess of Witchcraft and is arguably the most powerful sorceress in the DC universe. She will kill all who oppose her or stand in her way, without hesitation.

Although my team might not have the best teamwork, they will fight together if it means their survival. Maxima is the most likely to cooperate; Enchantress and Circe will fight alongside others if it means winning and ensuring their own survival. I feel as though Enchantress and Circe would even get along quite well, given their affinity to magic. Circe is a bit insane, but against three men and on a team of women, she will definitely do whatever it takes to defeat them, since she harbours a deep hatred for men. They won't have great teamwork, but great teamwork won't be needed for my team to defeat yours.

Prep

The first step will be done by Maxima. She has been shown to be able to communicate telepathically, so she will establish a psychic link between herself, Enchantress and Circe. This will allow my team to be in constant telepathic communication, and not have to rely on speaking out loud in order to coordinate. This will also strengthen their telepathic defences by linking their minds.

Next, Circe will create a forcefield within an area. She is capable of creating city-wide force fields that not even Superman can penetrate. She will create a smaller forcefield that will provide my team with an area of safety, to retreat to if needed. She will also make herself invisible, which has an added bonus of allowing her to choose who can and cannot see her. Therefore, Maxima and Enchantress will be able to see her, but your team will not.

Enchantress is able to conjure multiple simulacra of June Moone. Although only 34 of them were created initially, she was able to create hundreds more in order to create this massive monstrosity. Individually, just 5 of these were enough to overwhelm Zatanna, harm her, and force her to retreat. Zatanna is one of the most powerful sorceresses of the DC universe, so it is quite impressive that she couldn't even fight off five of them. Enchantress will conjure 200 of these, to serve as distractions to your team.

She was also able to then transform this monstrosity into a swarm of rotting teeth, which were powerful enough to defeat Superman, Wonder Woman, and Cyborg. So if it happens that the simulacra are useless against your team, they can just be transformed into the monstrosity or a swarm of magically-amplified rotting teeth.

Circe will also then further amp her physicals through her magic, as she has done on multiple occasions to be able to physically match/beat Wonder Woman.

Strategy

Outside of my prep, my strategy is quite simple.

My team will begin outside the force field and only retreat to it if they are overwhelmed (which won't happen). Not only do my characters outmatch your team physically, but there are dozens of ways my team can defeat yours.

As soon as the battle begins, the summons will charge at your team to distract you. From there, each of my characters can take you out in multiple ways...

Enchantress can:

Maxima can:

While invisible, Circe will be able to:

This is something Circe really likes to do. Very recently, she casually transformed Constantine, Man-Bat, Detective Chimp, and Swamp Thing into animals. Being able to transform Swamp Thing is very impressive considering his immense magical power.

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Initial Counters

Nate Grey

Telekinetically interrupting electrical impulses of a crowed to paralyze them.

You'll need to provide a feat of him doing this to anyone but fodder in order for me to be concerned about it.

Redirects Jean Grey's TK

Not bad, but Jean's TK was not significantly powerful at the time of this feat.

Restraining & pinning Abomination to a wall.

This won't happen against 2 powerful sorceresses and 1 psionic powerhouse that is capable of keeping up with Pre-52 Superman and Doomsday.

Nate TK shield withstands Tundra's stomp who was bigger than the surrounding mountains. Then Nate telekinetically blast Tundra off of him.

This is alright, but obviously blasting Tundra off of him didn't do much since he got grabbed right after

Nate makes a dead alternate reality Forge speak by telekinetically controlling his neurons, & vocal cords.

Impressive but useless in a combat situation

Fissures an alternate earth just to get a characters attention.

Creating a crater of this size isn't impressive at all.

Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

His energy form would be problematic if you were only up against 3 physical powerhouses. Unfortunately for you, you're up against 2 sorceresses capable of powerful magic and one psionic capable of attacking with powerful optic beams and mind bolts.

Nate's telepathy is powerful, but so is Maxima's. Her psychic bolts powerful enough to take out multiple powerful characters (as I showed before), but here are some other feats:

Circe has demonstrated the ability to make powerful illusions as well on many occasions, and Enchantress was able to influence the minds of millions of people across the planet while not even physically there. I can present you with these feats in my next post if you want.

Regardless, none of the telepathic feats you presented for Nate involve offensive telepathy, and I doubt his telepathic defences are powerful enough to tank Maxima's psionic bolts.

Nate has great range on his teleporting, but how often does he use it in battle to avoid attacks?

Mimic first comes into contact with Nate and starts seeing his future. Nate is far more advanced he has over 300 ways to see the future & can view multiple possible futures at a time.

This could be useful, but you need to provide more information for this power. Does he use this often? How accurate is it? How much does he see? From what you presented, it doesn't seem to pinpoint the one true future but shows what could happen.

Necrom

HIs life force draining would be problematic, but he needs to physically touch someone to use it. With full knowledge, no one on my team would let him get close enough to use it.

His magic is decent but nowhere near the level that Circe and Enchantress have demonstrated. Not only is their magic more powerful, but they have many showings and a lot more versatility with it.

Superior to Rachel, while she isn't using the Phoenix.

Psychic projection through multiverse convergence. Which was enough to block Rachel's telepathy (Rachel isn't using the Phoenix)

Having TP better than non-Phoenix Rachel isn't very impressive. At the time, and without the Phoenix, Rachel's telepathy wasn't even planetary IIRC.

Telekinesis, Strength & Durability

Very limited feats for these, and not impressive enough against Maxima who can match Superman and Doomsday, or Circe and Enchantress. How's his speed? Because I doubt it is anywhere near the level of my team.

Reed Richards

He's very intelligent but completely outclassed against my team.

My team having two high end telepaths and telekinetics will provided defences. Nate & Necrom by forming a telepathic link will first hide their team telepathically. Nate has shown he can hide his presence from other telepaths, make himself invisible telepathically and even erase memories of his existence. So by sending out constant telepathic commands my team will start the battle invisible to any mind. With that done Nate & Necrom can end their prep by creating a TK shield for the team that renders them invisible to light. So even if they're somehow telepathically detected by other telepaths (doubtful) they won't immediately be spotted or take any damaged.

Can you provide feats of him making himself invisible? And making yourself invisible via telepathy requires you to affect our minds, so this couldn't even happen until our battle starts, at which point we will see you before you even try to go invisible.

Can you provide feats of either Necrom or Nate creating a TK shield to make them invisible? Because all you showed was Nate making himself invisible with his TK; this doesn't necessarily mean he can do the same to others and maintain the invisibility while fighting.

Just as a reminder: since my team has full knowledge, we will know everything that your team is capable of, including all the feats you presented and have yet to present.

Conclusion

To recap, we have:

  • A psychic link, to establish telepathic communication for my team
  • A force field that even Superman could not break through
  • 200 summons of June Moone, capable of transforming into a massive monstrosity or into a swarm of magical rotting teeth
  • Circe, who is invisible and whose physicals are now amped to Wonder Woman's level (at the very least) and can transmute you all into animals
  • Maxima, a psionic powerhouse with far superior physicals and very powerful psionic blasts
  • Enchantress, another powerful sorceress with strong and versatile magic
  • Full knowledge, allowing my team to know everything you are capable of
  • Multiple ways to murder your team

So basically, not only does my team vastly outmatch yours in physicals, but they can at least match you in terms of psionics and outclass you in magic. This gives my team so many ways to take you out, without any chance of you harming anyone on my team.

Your move!

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#10 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan:

Opening Strategy

My team's strategy relies on Nate & Necrom being a continuation of their prep. Since I wanted to go a different route than stacking so many task on Reed. Which is to say Reed won't be doing much of anything combat wise. However since my team has a telepathic link they can access Reed's knowledge at any point during battle.

Now the battle starts off with my team shielded an hidden, which should cover all bases in response to attacks. At a glance the opponents seem to have psionic senses for locating & targeting their enemies. But so did Xavier and he was unable to locate Nate (Pre Shaman) when actively searching for him. Then we have my team being rendered invisible. Also sending out telepathic commands to anyone who manages to get by the first two defences. On top of that Nate has the added power of Necrom's phoenix force, so even if you argue Nate alone isn't powerful enough the phoenix force is. This is all to stress that the opponents aren't going to be initiating the battle.

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In terms of offenses and defenses my team is far beyond plenary level with Necrom alone. Necrom has the TK to no sell being punted to the center of a planet by Phoenix Force Rachel. Rachel already out stats heralds such as Nova who she punched to the moon, & used a bowling ball to topple Galactus. As far as offensives go Necrom increased the gravity of a brown dwarf turning it into a small star. "Brown dwarfs come in a variety of masses and temperatures. They range from 13 to 90 times the mass of Jupiter, around a tenth the mass of the sun." source

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So at the start of the battle my team can just TK crush the entire planet with a force that only high end heralds would have a chance to withstand or have a hope to overcome.

Rebuttal I

My team will begin outside the force field and only retreat to it if they are overwhelmed (which won't happen). Not only do my characters outmatch your team physically, but there are dozens of ways my team can defeat yours.

In or outside a force field your team would die to a TK crush. Also my team isn't going for a physical fight, as you would see their prep is to completely avoid it.

As soon as the battle begins, the summons will charge at your team to distract you. From there, each of my characters can take you out in multiple ways...

From everything you've shown of your team there is nothing to prove they could locate my team who's actively concealing themselves.

Enchantress can:

Blast your heads off

Freeze you in ice

Or even blast you with magic that was strong enough to harm Superman and match his heat vision

Between my characters natural durability, TK shields and energy state I doubt Enchantress could harm my team or stop them from registering a thought to TK crush her. And that's besides the point of how does she find them.

Necrom is superior to Rachel except in raw power and he could still tank her blasts.

For reference this is how powerful Rachel is.

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Maxima can:

Use her psychic powers to fire psychic bolts that can own Orion, Shazam, Power Girl, Superman, Captain Atom, Brainiac, and Wonder Woman. They can also disintegrate this man's head.

Attack your team physically, with hits that send Superman and even Doomsday flying

Nate alone could easily shut down a mental assault. Being that Xavier simply trying to scan his mind was shut out by Nate (at his weakest in continuity). And if we just single out the blasting power of the bolt it wouldn't even get past the TK shields.

It's important to note Xavier was impressed Nate could find him while on the astral plane.

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This isn't a physical fight and even if it were Post Crisis Superman is only moon level consistently. Which Necrom vastly out stats, Nate not needing to since he's energy.

While invisible, Circe will be able to:

Attack your team physically, with strength that rival Wonder Woman's

Fire off eye beams and bolts that cause harm to WW

Blast you with magic that regularly KO's WW

Straight up just kill you

Turn you into clay

And best of all: transform you into various animals and beasts!

It doesn't matter if Circe is hiding since an AOE attack will kill her all the same. Now looking over the feats you've listed the only thing threatening here is transmutation/matter manipulation. But that's assuming she can find my team, getting past combined telepathy & by passing TK defences. Xavier admits inferiority to nate on multiple occasions so I doubt Circe having odds.

Xavier lost to Nate while he was burning out.

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#13 Edited by Thatoneguy887 (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes please.

Gotta say, really enjoy it when there are decent debaters that are able to give good arguments for a plethora of characters like this.

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#14 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17092 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: He was active like 4 hours ago

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#18 Edited by Lan_Fan (11754 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: Then he might've blocked me.

I can't post on his wall. Can you?

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#19 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Nope, I'm not banned and I have not blocked you!

@emperorthanos- i'll have it up by monday night, i'm just out of town for the weekend

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#20 Posted by Lan_Fan (11754 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Something's wrong with your wall, might be a glitch then.

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#21 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@geekryan: Something's wrong with your wall, might be a glitch then.

Hmm, weird. But yeah, maybe just a glitch

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17092 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Lan_Fan (11754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Lan_Fan (11754 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#26 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #2

Opening Strategy Counters

My team's strategy relies on Nate & Necrom being a continuation of their prep. Since I wanted to go a different route than stacking so many task on Reed. Which is to say Reed won't be doing much of anything combat wise. However since my team has a telepathic link they can access Reed's knowledge at any point during battle.

What knowledge are they accessing exactly?

Now the battle starts off with my team shielded an hidden, which should cover all bases in response to attacks.

I addressed this in my first post in the "Initial Counters" section:

"Can you provide feats of him making himself invisible? And making yourself invisible via telepathy requires you to affect our minds, so this couldn't even happen until our battle starts, at which point we will see you before you even try to go invisible."

"Can you provide feats of either Necrom or Nate creating a TK shield to make them invisible? Because all you showed was Nate making himself invisible with his TK; this doesn't necessarily mean he can do the same to others and maintain the invisibility while fighting."

You provided one feat of Nate being able to telepathically mask himself from psionics, one feat of Nate being able to make himself and another person invisible to a crowd of people, and one feat of Nate making himself invisible with TK by deflecting light. You didn't address the points I brought up...

    1. The feat with Exodus is a very vague statement with Exodus stating that "both of us are equally adept at shielding our presence from fellow psionics". A lot of context is missing. Who did Nate successfully shield himself from, for how long, could he maintain this during battle, etc. You need to provide more context and feats for this.
    2. Making yourself invisible via TP requires you to affect the minds of others to make them think you are invisible. Since my team isn't there until the battle begins, you will not be able to do this during prep, only once the battle begins; at which point we will see you before you can even go invisible. Everyone on my team, especially Maxima, has far superior speed than your team, so there is nothing to suggest you can cloak yourself before we see you.
    3. Being able to make yourself invisible with TK by deflecting light is great and all, but some context is missing. You claim he will do this to his whole team...do you have feats of him being able to do this with at least 3 people? Can he maintain this invisibility while in a battle? What are the limits for it?
    4. Can Nate even maintain multiple forms of invisibility on multiple people all at once?
    5. Is it even in character for Nate to make himself and others invisible before and during a fight? I don't think it is, so you will have to prove me wrong.

At a glance the opponents seem to have psionic senses for locating & targeting their enemies. But so did Xavier and he was unable to locate Nate (Pre Shaman) when actively searching for him.Then we have my team being rendered invisible. Also sending out telepathic commands to anyone who manages to get by the first two defences.

Let's assume you can answer all my previous questions and prove me wrong.

Xavier is a powerful telepath with more skill and versatility than Maxima. However, Maxima's telepathy is quite powerful, as I demonstrated before:

Maxima was also able to telepathically sense and read the mind of Doomsday, who is known for having pretty insane telepathic resistances, bordering on immunity, like when he was resisting Brainiac and resisting MMH.

I also have 2 of the most powerful sorceresses of DC who have feats of telepathy through their magic.

Enchantress was influencing millions of people from various towns and cities across the entire world and causing major chaos, without even being there physically (one, two). Circe can cast illusions of herself even though she was considered dead, cast an illusion that Themyscira was destroyed, puts Wonder Woman through illusions, and casts very realistic illusions/astral projections. These aren't necessarily going to be useful against powerful telepaths like Nate, but it's just to show that both Enchantress and Circe aren't completely lacking in powers that affect the mind.

Circe has also used her magic to cause people to show their true form. This isn't the same as telepathically sensing people, but I don't see why she couldn't do this to reveal your invisible team.

On top of that Nate has the added power of Necrom's phoenix force, so even if you argue Nate alone isn't powerful enough the phoenix force is. This is all to stress that the opponents aren't going to be initiating the battle.

The Phoenix Force is very powerful, but not only is it well-above the limits of this tournament, Necrom can only use the Phoenix feats that he himself has.

In terms of offenses and defenses my team is far beyond plenary level with Necrom alone. Necrom has the TK to no sell being punted to the center of a planet by Phoenix Force Rachel. Rachel already out stats heralds such as Nova who she punched to the moon, & used a bowling ball to topple Galactus. As far as offensives go Necrom increased the gravity of a brown dwarf turning it into a small star. "Brown dwarfs come in a variety of masses and temperatures. They range from 13 to 90 times the mass of Jupiter, around a tenth the mass of the sun." source

So at the start of the battle my team can just TK crush the entire planet with a force that only high end heralds would have a chance to withstand or have a hope to overcome.

You seem to be lacking some serious context for your Rachel scaling...

What leads you to believe that the hit caused him to reach the center of the planet? With a team on his side and with perfect teamwork, why would Necrom even go for a strategy that would involve harming his own team? Is this a standard move that he would definitely use?

Rebuttal Counters

In or outside a force field your team would die to a TK crush. Also my team isn't going for a physical fight, as you would see their prep is to completely avoid it.

From everything you've shown of your team there is nothing to prove they could locate my team who's actively concealing themselves.

You have quite a few questions to address before you reliably use the strategy you have decided to use.

Between my characters natural durability, TK shields and energy state I doubt Enchantress could harm my team or stop them from registering a thought to TK crush her. And that's besides the point of how does she find them.

Their durability isn't that great... And when has Nate just straight up TK crushed someone while in character?

Maxima also has very powerful TK by the way, and she is skilled and precise enough with it that she can completely disassemble Red Tornado.

She can collect a bunch of scrap metal to create a huge citadel and attack intruders:

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Even more impressive, she can use her TK to stop her planet from breaking apart:

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Enchantress' magic can harm very powerful beings...Superman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Zatanna, etc. You'd have to prove that your durability is above all of them before you can claim that your team is too durable for her magic to harm them.

Necrom is superior to Rachel except in raw power and he could still tank her blasts.

For reference this is how powerful Rachel is.

You're using an OOC Rachel with the full power of the Phoenix Force to scale for Necrom, when she wasn't OOC and not using her power to the fullest of her capabilities.

Nate alone could easily shut down a mental assault. Being that Xavier simply trying to scan his mind was shut out by Nate (at his weakest in continuity). And if we just single out the blasting power of the bolt it wouldn't even get past the TK shields.

Her bolts are depicted physically for artistic reasons, but they are in fact psionic bolts that affect the mind. I don't believe that one of Maxima's psionic bolts would OHKO Nate, but they would cause him serious damage given the fact that her bolts have affected very powerful beings, which I demonstrated before.

This isn't a physical fight and even if it were Post Crisis Superman is only moon level consistently. Which Necrom vastly out stats, Nate not needing to since he's energy.

Necrom's stats are NOWHERE near as good as you are making them out to be. They are quite underwhelming actually. He is especially lacking in speed/reaction feats. As I showed in my opener, Superman was impressed with Maxima's speed and she was capable of blitzing him. This puts her speed so far above both Nate and Necrom that it is ridiculous. You have given me nothing to suggest that Maxima couldn't blitz and one-shot Necrom right from the start.

Post-Crisis Superman may be moon level on average, but he also has many feats that go well beyond moon level. I'm not going to start posting scans for Superman, but he has shown to be able to move/destroy objects larger than the Moon, such as the Earth, Mageddon, various planets, etc. Although Maxima is lacking in feats, she is comparable to Superman in stats alone.

It doesn't matter if Circe is hiding since an AOE attack will kill her all the same. Now looking over the feats you've listed the only thing threatening here is transmutation/matter manipulation. But that's assuming she can find my team, getting past combined telepathy & by passing TK defences. Xavier admits inferiority to nate on multiple occasions so I doubt Circe having odds.

Not when she can avoid the attack with teleportation, block it with a force field, etc.

You should be threatened by Circe's transmutation. You still haven't proved how Nate will be able to put up and maintain multiple forms of invisibility for his team. Circe can transmute all 3 of your team members in an instant the moment she sees or detects you. And since my team is mind-linked because of Maxima, if one of us sees/detects you, we all do.

Xavier lost to Nate while he was burning out.

In a pure telepathic battle, I have no doubt that your team would win. However, Maxima's raw psionic power coupled with her speed would allow us to hit hard and hit first. From there it's just a matter of Circe transmuting you.

Conclusion

  • Nothing from my original strategy has changed
  • There are many things you need to address, from lack of context to counters to what I have said
  • The main component of your strategy is to start off the battle invisible, but you have a lot of things to prove before you can use this strategy
  • You claim that Necrom's stats are superior to my team's but you haven't shown anything to prove that
  • Another component of your strategy involves telekinetically crushing the planet, which isn't something anyone on your team would do since you have perfect teamwork and it could harm your own team just as much as my team.
  • Your team is seriously lacking in speed/reaction feats, especially against characters like Maxima and Circe who can contend with Superman and Wonder Woman respectively.
  • My team has far superior and numerous ways that they can beat your team
  • You have no defence against Circe's transmutation
  • Due to the mind link my team has and the raw psionic power that Maxima has demonstrated, I don't see how either Nate or Necrom will be able to TP my team down faster than my team can blitz/transmute you.
  • I also have an army of 200 clones to distract you, which can be transformed into a giant monstrosity or a swarm of magical teeth that were powerful enough to take down Superman, WW, and Cyborg.
  • Having full knowledge and prep will allow my team to know everything about your team and strategize accordingly. Nothing your team can do will come as a surprise to my team. We will be vastly more prepared than you, since you will no idea what we are capable of going into the fight.

Your move!

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#27 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan:

Rebuttal II

What knowledge are they accessing exactly?

Anything that becomes apparent Reed has more knowledge on the subject.

I addressed this in my first post in the "Initial Counters" section:

"Can you provide feats of him making himself invisible? And making yourself invisible via telepathy requires you to affect our minds, so this couldn't even happen until our battle starts, at which point we will see you before you even try to go invisible."

"Can you provide feats of either Necrom or Nate creating a TK shield to make them invisible? Because all you showed was Nate making himself invisible with his TK; this doesn't necessarily mean he can do the same to others and maintain the invisibility while fighting."

I don't typically respond to parts of the post that counters intros or prep. But since you brought it up here I have no problem with replying.

I have two problems with this. Those being you're putting too much emphasis on such a simple task & ignoring Nate is not doing this alone. With the aid of a Necrom a phoenix force user, there is no way you can argue this is a demanding task for my team. So what you should take a way from this is my team can do this in their sleep.

Nate renders Threnody and himself invisible.

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Hides himself and kids from sential scanners that scan the spectrums of light, heat and sound.

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Nate was able to restain Madelyne Pryor (a powerful telekinetic) & shield them simultaneously. It wasn't until Madelyne drain Nate's psionic energy that Nate felt taxed. Keep in mind this is (pre shaman) Nate who burns out when using his power or more specifically suffers cerebral hemorrhaging.

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Nate has no trouble turning invisible and slugging it out with TK.

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Nate passively sends out telepathic commands to the people around him making them ignore him as he passes through town. Considering I my team has prep they'll have started sending these commands before the battle & would take effect the instant it starts.

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Nate back in Age of Apocalypse Nate bent a blast around him. Which takes far more control than simply shielding himself.

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You provided one feat of Nate being able to telepathically mask himself from psionics, one feat of Nate being able to make himself and another person invisible to a crowd of people, and one feat of Nate making himself invisible with TK by deflecting light. You didn't address the points I brought up...

How can you state this in the same post where I showed Nate shielding himself from Xavier's telepathy? Did you read the scan?

The feat with Exodus is a very vague statement with Exodus stating that "both of us are equally adept at shielding our presence from fellow psionics". A lot of context is missing. Who did Nate successfully shield himself from, for how long, could he maintain this during battle, etc. You need to provide more context and feats for this.

Either you're messing with me or you like to repeat yourself.

Making yourself invisible via TP requires you to affect the minds of others to make them think you are invisible. Since my team isn't there until the battle begins, you will not be able to do this during prep, only once the battle begins; at which point we will see you before you can even go invisible. Everyone on my team, especially Maxima, has far superior speed than your team, so there is nothing to suggest you can cloak yourself before we see you.

My team using telepathy for invisibility isn't really needed since it's the back up plan. I put that in there on the off chance your team somehow detecting them through their first two forms of invisibility. I've shown you that Nate can make himself an other invisible to light heat and sound. With that nate can make himself undetectable to a telepath far more skilled and powerful than your team.

Being able to make yourself invisible with TK by deflecting light is great and all, but some context is missing. You claim he will do this to his whole team...do you have feats of him being able to do this with at least 3 people? Can he maintain this invisibility while in a battle? What are the limits for it?

I find your scrutiny of high tier characters far more annoying than insightful.

Can Nate even maintain multiple forms of invisibility on multiple people all at once?

Nate doesn't even need to use it on himself or Necrom if we're examining every detail about my team's strategy. Nate doesn't need body since he can exist solely on the astral plane. Necrom has his own telekinesis that's more powerful than Nate's own, on top of having all of Nate's knowledge via mind link. The only character that would need TK invisibility is Reed and he isn't crucial to my team's strategy.

Is it even in character for Nate to make himself and others invisible before and during a fight? I don't think it is, so you will have to prove me wrong.

I'm going to post this scan and drop this point from the discussion.

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Let's assume you can answer all my previous questions and prove me wrong.

Xavier is a powerful telepath with more skill and versatility than Maxima. However, Maxima's telepathy is quite powerful, as I demonstrated before:

The optimism of you thinking those where valid points amuses me.

Anway none of what you have shown for Maxima has any bearing on her decating two telepaths that hard hiding from telepathy. It's not an attack or illusion of any kind nor is it something her psychic bolts can over power.

Maxima was also able to telepathically sense and read the mind of Doomsday, who is known for having pretty insane telepathic resistances, bordering on immunity, like when he was resisting Brainiac and resisting MMH.

Doomsday isn't a telepath hiding himself from telepathy. Having resistance to mind reading and mind control has nothing to do with this.

Enchantress was influencing millions of people from various towns and cities across the entire world and causing major chaos, without even being there physically (one, two). Circe can cast illusions of herself even though she was considered dead, cast an illusion that Themyscira was destroyed, puts Wonder Woman through illusions, and casts very realistic illusions/astral projections. These aren't necessarily going to be useful against powerful telepaths like Nate, but it's just to show that both Enchantress and Circe aren't completely lacking in powers that affect the mind.

I'm not sure you're getting this. Xavier is far more skilled and powerful than Enchantress and Circe. But that didn't help Xavier find Nate when he didn't want to be found.

Circe has also used her magic to cause people to show their true form. This isn't the same as telepathically sensing people, but I don't see why she couldn't do this to reveal your invisible team.

Shape shifting/transmutation, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The Phoenix Force is very powerful, but not only is it well-above the limits of this tournament, Necrom can only use the Phoenix feats that he himself has.

What I'm trying to get across is Nate can siphon the necessary power to accomplish any feat you're so skeptical of. Nate can drain other telepaths of psionic energy but it's easier when it's given to him willingly (perfect team work).

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You seem to be lacking some serious context for your Rachel scaling...

What leads you to believe that the hit caused him to reach the center of the planet? With a team on his side and with perfect teamwork, why would Necrom even go for a strategy that would involve harming his own team? Is this a standard move that he would definitely use?

I gave you every feat of Necrom from the very beginning so I'm not sure why you're questioning this. Rachel sent Necrom deep underground and in return he shot a jet of magma into space. The very next page being the planet cracked open like an egg. He would need to be pretty deep within the planet to shoot that much magma, with that much force resulting in that much destruction.

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You're approaching this as if my claim is completely unreasonable.

Necrom is a psychopath with a god complex, the argument of in character doesn't even relate to him. His only motivation was to get the Phoenix Force and rules the universe after the multiverse collapsed.

Your other point his he'll endanger his team, which isn't true. I've stated from the get go Nate and Necrom will have a TK shield up & it isn't as if they would crush themselves. Reed is the only character without his own from of defense and his teammates are shielding him.

Their durability isn't that great... And when has Nate just straight up TK crushed someone while in character?

Nate doesn't need durability, and Necrom has shown durability that exceeds Superman striking power who you scale Maxima to. Clark is consistently moon level & the only time you can claim he's a moon buster, is when he knocked himself out. The context behind that feat means you can't even scale Maxima to that, since he needed to accelerate to light speed.

Nate only gets into fist fights when he's being dumb (PIS) or vastly weakened. When he isn't dumb or weak he has no problem crushing, restaining or pinning his opponents with TK.

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Maxima also has very powerful TK by the way, and she is skilled and precise enough with it that she can completely disassemble Red Tornado.

She can collect a bunch of scrap metal to create a huge citadel and attack intruders:

I would assume that's her Ferrokinesis, which is far less versatile than magnetism. So it's reasonable to state would have no bearing on this battle.

Even more impressive, she can use her TK to stop her planet from breaking apart:

Impressive feat but it doesn't compare to Necrom's TK.

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Enchantress' magic can harm very powerful beings...Superman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Zatanna, etc. You'd have to prove that your durability is above all of them before you can claim that your team is too durable for her magic to harm them.

Power has nothing to do with durability, that's why we terms such as glass cannon. Superman (especially New 52) has no resistance to magic and oftentimes depicted as weak to it. There is also the fact that heat vision can block Enchantress' magic, so TK shields will no sell it.

Using New 52 character for some claim of high end durability doesn't help your case. Wonder Woman is below Superman in durability that includes blunt force, energy and piercing/slashing durability. She's has been one shotted by magical lightning along with Superman. New 52 Doomsday nearly killed her the same Doomsday, Superman later rips apart. I'm not even sure why you brought up Cyborg and Zatanna for a discussion on durability, they're both mid tiers.

What I'm trying to get across is Enchantress giving them trouble doesn't prove how strong she is, it only proves how weak they are compared to their Post Crisis counter parts.

You're using an OOC Rachel with the full power of the Phoenix Force to scale for Necrom, when she wasn't OOC and not using her power to the fullest of her capabilities.

You're making my case for me, a mind controlled Rachel wouldn't be as powerful as she would in full control. In the scan of her battling Quasar she's being mind controlled so she isn't at her peak. But when she's fighting Necrom she even admits she can't use as much power as he can (read the scan again).

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Her bolts are depicted physically for artistic reasons, but they are in fact psionic bolts that affect the mind. I don't believe that one of Maxima's psionic bolts would OHKO Nate, but they would cause him serious damage given the fact that her bolts have affected very powerful beings, which I demonstrated before.

Nate has no sold blasts from Harvester a character with the entire life force of the planet in his control.

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I don't see her having more power than this.

Necrom's stats are NOWHERE near as good as you are making them out to be. They are quite underwhelming actually. He is especially lacking in speed/reaction feats. As I showed in my opener, Superman was impressed with Maxima's speed and she was capable of blitzing him. This puts her speed so far above both Nate and Necrom that it is ridiculous. You have given me nothing to suggest that Maxima couldn't blitz and one-shot Necrom right from the start.

You're strategy really falls apart when the speed argument can't be used, when you think about it. My team is hidden from view and detection. While your team has yet to show anything to bypass that. So this point is inconsequential if you can't locate your target.

Post-Crisis Superman may be moon level on average, but he also has many feats that go well beyond moon level. I'm not going to start posting scans for Superman, but he has shown to be able to move/destroy objects larger than the Moon, such as the Earth, Mageddon, various planets, etc. Although Maxima is lacking in feats, she is comparable to Superman in stats alone.

No Clark is moon level flat out, since he has no striking feats to say he could bust a planet. All his feats point to moon level since his best striking feat of busting a moon KOed him in the process. I'm mentioning striking power specifically, since that's the only state applicable in a fight.

But if you want to discuss lifting feats for Post Crisis Superman, you should post them, since most of them have context to them.

Not when she can avoid the attack with teleportation, block it with a force field, etc.

There is no BFR so there is nowhere to go against multi planetary TK. The only feat you've posted for a force field is Superman smashing his face into it. That's good an all but Necrom TK is vastly more powerful then Superman's best striking feat. So even if you state Clark smashed into it at the speed of light that's only moon busting force.

You should be threatened by Circe's transmutation. You still haven't proved how Nate will be able to put up and maintain multiple forms of invisibility for his team. Circe can transmute all 3 of your team members in an instant the moment she sees or detects you. And since my team is mind-linked because of Maxima, if one of us sees/detects you, we all do.

Why must you down play Nate as if he's a mid tier? Does this actually help your argument any I'm sure users will realize the your characters just lacks feats & appropriate counters. I already addressed these points, but it's the fact that I have to read them again. Although it's even more annoying when they're used to prop up your team's lack of strategy.

I've already conceded Necrom and Reed lack transmutation resistance. But she can't harm Nate with that, once again doesn't need a body. The faux body he creates is energy not even made of matter.

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But it isn't as if you've shown your team has a chance of detecting mine anyway.

In a pure telepathic battle, I have no doubt that your team would win. However, Maxima's raw psionic power coupled with her speed would allow us to hit hard and hit first. From there it's just a matter of Circe transmuting you.

It would seem this is the one argument you won't even try an pose, I think we're making progress. However that leaves one giant hole in your argument. Maxima is the only one who can affect Nate's energy form since she uses psionic bolts but she isn't nearly enough to put him down.

That means ever following your line of logic Nate would still have a reasonable chance to solo. And that chance goes up significantly when you consider Maxima can't even detect my team or put down Nate.

What I take away from this is my team has the offensive TK and TP to achieve an unconditional win. Without even arguing any exotic uses of TK or TP (not that I've argued for TP yet).

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#30 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Nicely done! I'm about to start my final exams soon, so don't anticipate a quick response haha. I'm hoping to have my post up within a week

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#31 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: @emperorthanos- I'm dropping.

Not only do I have a lot going on right now with exams and such, but both Nate and Necrom are wayyy above high tier based on what you have shown. Just the fact that Nate with Shaman feats is almost too much in ET's Herald Doubles tournament says a lot...

Sorry. Best of luck.

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#32 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Nate is just good at what he does. He's not particularly powerful.

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#33 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Nate is just good at what he does. He's not particularly powerful.

He's just way too hax with Shaman feats

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#34 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: That's true but it's more to due with the fact that the writers were expanding on his powerset. All of those hax were introduced pre shaman.

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#35 Edited by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: @emperorthanos- If it isn't too late, I'll finish this sometime by Monday. There's only one post left so I might as well

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#36 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #3

Counters

Despite the fact that I believe both Nate & Necrom are far above high-tier and what should be allowed in this tournament, I'll finish up my last post and then we can go to voting. I'm not expecting to win but might as well finish it and see what happens.

Anything that becomes apparent Reed has more knowledge on the subject.

This is a very negligible factor that won't really matter at all in this battle.

I have two problems with this. Those being you're putting too much emphasis on such a simple task & ignoring Nate is not doing this alone. With the aid of a Necrom a phoenix force user, there is no way you can argue this is a demanding task for my team. So what you should take a way from this is my team can do this in their sleep.

Unfortunately, Necrom has no feats to suggest he could mask himself telepathically or telekinetically. There are no feats to suggest he could even help Nate accomplish this. Despite being a Phoenix Force user, he lacks the feats for any of this.

Nate was able to restain Madelyne Pryor (a powerful telekinetic) & shield them simultaneously. It wasn't until Madelyne drain Nate's psionic energy that Nate felt taxed. Keep in mind this is (pre shaman) Nate who burns out when using his power or more specifically suffers cerebral hemorrhaging.

Okay.

Nate has no trouble turning invisible and slugging it out with TK.

Fair enough.

Nate passively sends out telepathic commands to the people around him making them ignore him as he passes through town. Considering I my team has prep they'll have started sending these commands before the battle & would take effect the instant it starts.

There are two big flaws in this plan of yours to constantly send out telepathic signals to make yourself and your team invisible. First, there's no feat to suggest he can maintain this TP invisibility while in combat. Second, it is a very unquantifiable feat. We do not know how quickly he can send out these signals. Since you need my team and their minds there for you to do this, it won't actually take effect until he sends out the first signal. Assuming Nate can do this at the speed of thought, that is roughly 120 meters per second (or 120 m/s). This is significantly slower than the speeds at which Maxima (and even Circe) can react to, based on their scalings to characters such as Superman and Wonder Woman. Just to review how fast Maxima is:

Impresses Superman with her speed
Impresses Superman with her speed
Blitzes Superman from a few feet away
Blitzes Superman from a few feet away

Although she lacks the amount of feats Pre-52 Superman has, these showings prove Maxima is at least as fast as him. I won't bother getting into Superman's speed feats, but he has proven to at least move and react at the Massively FTL level. This is so much faster than Nate or Necrom have demonstrated in terms of speed.

Given that my team has full knowledge, it is very fair to assume that we will know your plan to go invisible right as we spawn. However, since I have proven that Maxima's speed is significantly faster than Nate's speed, there is nothing stopping her from completely obliterating Nate with an optic blast/psychic bolt before he can send out the TP signal.

Even in his energy form, against a bolt that can completely disintegrate someone and one-shot all these powerful beings, Nate doesn't stand a chance. Brainiac is an extremely powerful telepath, and most of these characters have very powerful telepathic resistances. Also important to note: it worked against Captain Atom, who is also made out of energy.

If this attack doesn't completely KO/kill Nate, it will at least stun him or injure him long enough for Circe to transmute him and the rest of your team into animals or for Enchantress to attack you with her magic blasts, which you have no resistances against.

Nate back in Age of Apocalypse Nate bent a blast around him. Which takes far more control than simply shielding himself.

It was an explosion. This doesn't mean he will be able to do the same against any of Maxima, Circe, or Enchantress' attacks.

How can you state this in the same post where I showed Nate shielding himself from Xavier's telepathy? Did you read the scan?

Yes, I did. He was able to avoid detection from Xavier; this isn't the same as actually resisting a telepathic assault by Xavier or anything like that. And again, you would need to actively shield your mind from my team once the battle begins, which I have already proven you aren't fast enough to do before my team can attack.

My team using telepathy for invisibility isn't really needed since it's the back up plan. I put that in there on the off chance your team somehow detecting them through their first two forms of invisibility. I've shown you that Nate can make himself an other invisible to light heat and sound. With that nate can make himself undetectable to a telepath far more skilled and powerful than your team.

I'm glad you are admitting that this is a back-up plan of yours. However, with full knowledge, my team will know that you will start invisible and that you have various ways to achieve said invisibility. I will counter this plan of yours in my conclusion.

Nate doesn't even need to use it on himself or Necrom if we're examining every detail about my team's strategy. Nate doesn't need body since he can exist solely on the astral plane. Necrom has his own telekinesis that's more powerful than Nate's own, on top of having all of Nate's knowledge via mind link. The only character that would need TK invisibility is Reed and he isn't crucial to my team's strategy.

Sooo now you aren't relying on being invisible at all? Good to know.

I'm going to post this scan and drop this point from the discussion

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What does this have to do with what I asked about Nate making himself and others invisible before and during a fight? All this shows is Nate controlling Thing and Human Torch, being unable to control or stop Reed himself, and then getting owned by Susan.

Doomsday isn't a telepath hiding himself from telepathy. Having resistance to mind reading and mind control has nothing to do with this.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Doomsday, who has demonstrated an immunity to most telepathic intrusions or assaults on many occasions, had his mind detected and read by Maxima. This is a testament to how powerful her telepathy is.

I'm not sure you're getting this. Xavier is far more skilled and powerful than Enchantress and Circe. But that didn't help Xavier find Nate when he didn't want to be found.

Again, this was just to demonstrate that both Enchantress and Circe have telepathic powers as well and that they are quite powerful.

Shape shifting/transmutation, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I disagree. It's magic. She can cause people to reveal their true form. With full knowledge on your team, why couldn't she cast this spell and cause your team to become visible again, and make Nate have a physical body? No one on your team has any feats against magic to suggest they could resist something like this, especially from a sorceress as powerful as Circe.

What I'm trying to get across is Nate can siphon the necessary power to accomplish any feat you're so skeptical of. Nate can drain other telepaths of psionic energy but it's easier when it's given to him willingly (perfect team work).

Even with perfect teamwork, why would Necrom be okay with this? Having perfect teamwork doesn't mean his personality will change and he would suddenly be okay with having his psionic energy taken from him. Your characters still act in character, the only difference is that they are willing to work together and will work well together. You said it yourself: "Necrom is a psychopath with a god complex"

I gave you every feat of Necrom from the very beginning so I'm not sure why you're questioning this. Rachel sent Necrom deep underground and in return he shot a jet of magma into space. The very next page being the planet cracked open like an egg. He would need to be pretty deep within the planet to shoot that much magma, with that much force resulting in that much destruction.

Why does he HAVE to be at the core of the planet in order for him to shoot up magma? That's just a plain assumption. Chances are he manipulated the magma from wherever he landed and him spewing out that much magma was what caused the planet to break.

Nate doesn't need durability, and Necrom has shown durability that exceeds Superman striking power who you scale Maxima to. Clark is consistently moon level & the only time you can claim he's a moon buster, is when he knocked himself out. The context behind that feat means you can't even scale Maxima to that, since he needed to accelerate to light speed.

That's funny, because nothing you have shown exceeds the durability needed to tank Superman's striking power.

Nate only gets into fist fights when he's being dumb (PIS) or vastly weakened. When he isn't dumb or weak he has no problem crushing, restaining or pinning his opponents with TK.

That first feat with Forge looks much more like a TK blast than actually crushing him. The second feat is also quite vague and ambiguous. The due is exuding heat like he was hit by some energy blast. And you claiming that Nate's go-to move would be to crush my team with TK isn't plausible with one single feat.

I would assume that's her Ferrokinesis, which is far less versatile than magnetism. So it's reasonable to state would have no bearing on this battle.

The key word here being "assume". Regardless, both her ferrokinesis and TK have been shown to be very powerful.

Impressive feat but it doesn't compare to Necrom's TK.

Glad you think so. However, I think using TK while weakened to hold a planet together takes more skill and power than what Necrom did. That feat seems more about raw power than anything.

Power has nothing to do with durability, that's why we terms such as glass cannon. Superman (especially New 52) has no resistance to magic and oftentimes depicted as weak to it. There is also the fact that heat vision can block Enchantress' magic, so TK shields will no sell it.

Using New 52 character for some claim of high end durability doesn't help your case. Wonder Woman is below Superman in durability that includes blunt force, energy and piercing/slashing durability. She's has been one shotted by magical lightning along with Superman. New 52 Doomsday nearly killed her the same Doomsday, Superman later rips apart. I'm not even sure why you brought up Cyborg and Zatanna for a discussion on durability, they're both mid tiers.

Well Wonder Woman has an extremely high resistance to magic, Cyborg isn't weak to magic at all and has shown pretty good energy durability, and Zatanna has fared pretty well against magical attacks in the past. So it is somewhat impressive that none of them could tank Enchantress' attacks. Not really sure where you are getting New-52 WW's supposedly weak magic durability feats from...

I won't get into Superman's feats, but his heat vision has been shown to be quite powerful, and Enchantress' magical blasts can match it.

What I'm trying to get across is Enchantress giving them trouble doesn't prove how strong she is, it only proves how weak they are compared to their Post Crisis counter parts.

Soooo everything I presented is an anti-feat for the characters Enchantress has fought against, rather than good feats for Enchantress...?

Nate has no sold blasts from Harvester a character with the entire life force of the planet in his control.

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I don't see her having more power than this.

Not quite sure why or how this is impressive. Maxima being able to KO characters like Orion, Shazam, etc. with her bolts is far more impressive given the durability of these characters.

You're strategy really falls apart when the speed argument can't be used, when you think about it. My team is hidden from view and detection. While your team has yet to show anything to bypass that. So this point is inconsequential if you can't locate your target.

To be addressed in my conclusion.

No Clark is moon level flat out, since he has no striking feats to say he could bust a planet. All his feats point to moon level since his best striking feat of busting a moon KOed him in the process. I'm mentioning striking power specifically, since that's the only state applicable in a fight.

Lifting strength is an important factor as well, but whatever. And for the record, although it's just a statement and may be hyperbole: a fight between Superman and Darkseid "rocked our entire solar system".

But if you want to discuss lifting feats for Post Crisis Superman, you should post them, since most of them have context to them.

I don't like posting new feats in my final post but you asked for it. New-52 Superman was able to bench press the weight of the Earth for 5 days straight. But I digress...

There is no BFR so there is nowhere to go against multi planetary TK. The only feat you've posted for a force field is Superman smashing his face into it. That's good an all but Necrom TK is vastly more powerful then Superman's best striking feat. So even if you state Clark smashed into it at the speed of light that's only moon busting force.

Who said anything about BFR? Teleporting to avoid an attack isn't BFR and it is something both Circe and Enchantress can and have done.

As for the force field, fair enough, but I don't think our battle will last long enough for the force field to even be of use for my team.

Why must you down play Nate as if he's a mid tier? Does this actually help your argument any I'm sure users will realize the your characters just lacks feats & appropriate counters. I already addressed these points, but it's the fact that I have to read them again. Although it's even more annoying when they're used to prop up your team's lack of strategy.

Darn, you got me...

I've already conceded Necrom and Reed lack transmutation resistance. But she can't harm Nate with that, once again doesn't need a body. The faux body he creates is energy not even made of matter.

And yet Ares KO'd him...

Conclusion

That means ever following your line of logic Nate would still have a reasonable chance to solo. And that chance goes up significantly when you consider Maxima can't even detect my team or put down Nate.

What I take away from this is my team has the offensive TK and TP to achieve an unconditional win. Without even arguing any exotic uses of TK or TP (not that I've argued for TP yet).

Basically, both Nate and Necrom are far above the limits of this tournament. They go beyond high-tiers. This was an uphill battle for me to begin with, but I figured I'd give it a try anyways.

Admitting that Nate could solo my team is essentially admitting that he is far above high-tier. One "high tier" being able to solo 3 high tiers isn't really possible or realistic for a true high tier. Claiming that your team wins unconditionally is another implication that you knew from the start that your characters are too much for this bracket. I think you tricked your way into using Nate and Necrom in this tournament, but whatever, it can't be undone at this point.

I don't have too much to conclude, except for the matter of your strategy. It is very inconsistent. You seemed to rely on using invisibility via TP and TK at first, but then claimed it is a back-up plan that isn't even needed. You flip-flopped on your strategy many times, as well as how your team will dispatch mine.

I have already proven how Maxima is significantly faster than Nate & Necrom, and Circe and Enchantress are faster as well based on their scalings. Maxima can act faster than Nate can put up a TP signal to make himself and his team invisible, and use a psionic bolt to at least stun or hurt you. Since you didn't provide any proof that Nate could maintain this telepathic mask while under attack, this sort of attack would delay him long enough for Circe to transmute your team.

Since we have full knowledge, it is very safe to assume we will be aware of Nate's ability to make himself and his team invisible. Not only can Circe use magic to have your team reveal their true forms, but she can transmute your team without actually needing to physically see you. That feat I presented before of Circe transmuting Justice League Dark? Circe and the JLD weren't even aware of the other until Circe revealed herself. This suggests she doesn't actually need to see you to transmute you; she just needs to know you are there, which with full knowledge, she will know. Regardless of Nate's energy form, he is still human (to a degree) and has no resistance to magic, so he will be affected just the same. Necrom and Reed will be affected as well. With Circe invisible as well (as I mentioned in my opener), you wouldn't even know she was there until she transmutes you. I'm relying on it a lot, but my team having full knowledge vs. your team having no knowledge at all is a significant advantage for me and makes all the difference.

That's about it! Regardless of the outcome, it was a pleasure debating against you! Best of luck.

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#38 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Why are you pushing for votes so early?

I didn't agree to this. My debates go on for at least four post.

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#41 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: ET's tournaments are always 3 posts...I have been in many of them and I have never seen him ask for 4 posts. We also never agreed to 4 posts. The standard is 3.

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#42 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: That's something you should have asked for/clarified at the start....The standard is 3, even for ET's tournaments although not always explicitly stated.

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#44 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14522 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: I was always under the assumption the one who goes first initiates closing post.

  • Character Introductions/Prep
  • Strategy/Rebuttal
  • Rebuttal II
  • Rebuttal III/Closing Statements

But I'll let this slide.

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#45 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: @geekryan: I have never pushed for any limit. By tourneys have both 3 and 4.

But only I can open the match to votes. And i need both participants ti agree before I do.

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#46 Edited by geekryan (3176 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: @mr_ingenuity:

I have no interest in doing more posts. The standard is 3, and doing 4 posts was never brought up, so I was never under the impression that you wanted to do 4 posts.

I even mentioned how I would finish the debate since there’s “only one post left” and nothing was said.

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#47 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7339 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL 😂

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#49 Posted by vsw (2695 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote in the next few Days

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#50 Posted by XLR87T3 (9130 posts) - - Show Bio

Geekryan gets my vote. Way better debator