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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio

Its time for the Finals

@deathhero61

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  • Buu
  • Negi Springfield
  • Bakura
  • 1 hour of prep
  • Perfect Teamwork
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@blackspidey2099

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  • Iron Man
  • Kang
  • Thor
  • 1 hour of prep
  • Light speed reactions

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No Time Manipulation
  4. No speed steal
  5. No reality warping
  6. No Power Copying/stealing.
  7. No BFR
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man. They cannot be amped either.
  9. Summons, constructs or other fodder are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61 BTW you mentioned prep in your last match. But you don't have the prep perk? did I miss a change somewhere?

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#6 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I think I asked to drop one of my perks and get prep. We only get two perks right?

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#7 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP, Love seeing YGO characters being used in debates. Especially Bakura being one of my favourites.

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#10 Edited by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: Bakura is really cool, but I wish I had an amalgam of Bakura, Yugi and Marik, they each have a unique way of utilizing shadow powers the other doesn't. Yugi with illusions, Bakura with the soul, and Marik with the mind.

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#11 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: I'm ngl, I was kinda hoping you'd be willing to go first since I know less than nothing about any of your characters.

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#12 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: There are detailed respect threads on Negi and Bakura on reddit, but if it makes you feel more comfortable, give me until thursday

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#13 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27757 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooh tag me.

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#14 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Edited by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099:I want to keep this as simple as possible to avoid complicating things. This first post, will basically ease into things, then I will gradually build up to all the options my team has. This way I can keep you interested without overwhelming you with information all at once.

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The Team of Psycho's and Ex-Heroes.

The main goal for prep is for us to combine our powers. With perfect teamwork and prep, this is doable.

We got a magician of insane proportions, a thief with dark magic and soul shenanigans. These guys don't seem too powerful for this tier, when you have characters like Dr. Strange, Magik, Sentry, Kaguya, Cyborg Superman, Hal Jordan, etc. etc. But they are merely pawns for the greater scheme.

With perfect teamwork, Buu will absorb Bakura and his millenium ring, and Negi and his fusion with Ialda and make himself into a hive mind of raw power. What do I mean by this? During the Buu Saga, when he was losing to Gohan he decided to make use of Piccolo's knowledge and Gotenks' raw power to gain even more power than before. Gaining their memories, knowledge and skills.

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He used the skills of the people he assimilated fairly easily too.

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It would be pretty easy for him to absorb Negi and Bakura and add on to his arsenal. With perfect teamwork, this shouldn't be an issue.

With prep we are going to make use of the immortality of both Bakura and Buu. In Bakura's case, as long as he has a portion of his soul imbued in something, whether its his milennium ring or just some random object, he can still survive.

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He was more than capable of resurrecting himself, and even stated as much even when he lost his shadow game against Marik

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During prep we will scatter several tiny pieces of Buu throughout the battlefield. Buu can regenerate from practically liquid or vapor.

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Now that I explained the main goal. Lets talk about what everyone brings to the table in order to create this new warrior.

Buu

Buu obviously being the one absorbing everyone is the main part of the body. As you saw above he has a healing factor surpassing deadpool's casually.

His level of power is absurd, being able to destroy cities with his breath, and had to be warned not to use too much force or he would destroy the planet.

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During the Buu saga, the characters were at their peak regarding Destructive Capacity. But most characters would have to charge up in order to create a blast powerful enough to destroy a planet. Buu however literally just points and shoots.

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Then he quickly sets up a blast too big and powerful for Goku or Vegeta to counter, and these guys were already far beyond Frieza who could casually destroy a planet.

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On top of that, Buu has magic. Here he telekinetically lifts up the population of an entire city, and turns them all into candy(this is an impressive TK feat ranging in the hundred thousands if not more)

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Negi

Negi is a combatant who utilizes ki and magic, so he has a good compatibility with Buu. His abilities are as followed

  • Telepathy, both offensive and non-offensive(thanks to his current state, he gained a telepathic power that can spread across planets, and another telepathic power that is connected to literally billions of people across the solar system)
  • Enhanced Superhuman speed
  • Enhanced Superhuman strength
  • Expert Martial Artist Skills and Expert Magician.
  • Energy/Magic Absorption.

To give a general sample, lets talk about Negi's most notable skills particular the powerset known as Magia Erebea. The ability to absorb spiritual or magical energies meant to harm an enemy and supplement the attack absorbed to one's body.

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With someone like Buu in control of this ability with the tier he operates, even Thor's lightning blasts no longer seem like a threat. Negi has used this to even match the strength of Jack Rakan. Absorbing the energy of his attack, so he could effectively trade blows with Rakan.

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Also whatever magic he absorbs he gains the properties of said magic. Like if it was say a lightning spell, he would be able to turn himself into an actual bolt of lightning. In fact, he can turn intangible....

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And Buu's regen was already powerful enough. Now it will be so absurdly fast, he'll gain a huge boost in regeneration speed, thanks to Negi who can basically heal himself at lightning speeds, and his master(who is weaker) can do the same.

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The person she is fighting has lightning lvl combat speed.

I haven't even gotten into Ialda(who is a part of Negi)

Bakura is all about summoning monsters and utilizing soul shenanigans.

Bakura has a lot of abilities, but his main gimmick which is important to my strategy, is his ability to insert souls into objects. Think Big Mom from One Piece

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This can be an extremely dangerous ability, easily turning people into vegetables just by stealing their souls and transferring them to things like dolls or toys.

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There isn't too much of a need or desire to go into intense detail relating to Bakura's abilities seeing as I don't want to overwhelm you too much.

Battle Plan

Nothing too complicated, with all the abilities my fused character will have, it will be easy for my amalgam(I'll call it Buukagi) to simply overwhelm yours in combat. Thor isn't on Buu's level with or without the fusion, and Iron Man is a weak link. I know nothing about Kang, but from what I know of the aforementioned weak links, there isn't much you can do to match my team's power. Assuming you are coming in at standard levels you especially stand no chance. As soon as the fight starts and you guys are within sight, Buu either A)engages you in combat directly or B) bombards the planet with planet busting attacks to wipe out your team immediately.

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#16 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Nice post; I'll try to reply as soon as I can.

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#17 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: it's only been 2 days...

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#19 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

TEAM DIVINE FUTURE: Thor Odinson; Kang the Conqueror; Iron Man

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Right off the bat, I'm going to have to agree with the assertion that your team outguns mine in terms of raw power, so I'll skip most of the character overview stuff and get right to the prep which is what gives my team the advantage here. I'll just quickly introduce Kang, since a lot of his abilities will be important to the prep.

Kang: Temporal Titan

Armor:

Kang's armor features a bunch of great tricks and amazing durability. It's definitely going to be very useful in the coming battle.

1 - 2: In terms of blunt force durability, Kang's armor and its built-in shields are unparalleled. They can take powerful blows from the likes of Thor and Hercules, while leaving Kang unharmed.

3 - 5: This applies to his energy durability as well. Kang's armor can tank blasts from the likes of the Silver Surfer, and even Thor himself.

6 - 9: Kang's armor also offers unparalleled offensive power. He has a glove which can make whoever it touches be buried with the weight of half a planet, weapons which can burn through Silver Surfer's skin, and even anti-matter screens that can disintegrate any earthly matter.

10: Finally, Kang's armor even possess cloaking shields which can block the acute senses of even Silver Surfer - making himself effectively undetectable.

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Time Manipulation:

Kang's time manipulation powers are key to my strategy, so let me go through them below.

1 - 3: Kang's powers mean he can access any weapons or items that exist in the time stream, instantly summoning them to his location.

4 - 5: Kang can also use these powers to see the future.

6 - 10: Kang can view the entire timestream at his whim, and, as you can see, he can show Adam Warlock his entire past and future in just a few minutes.

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This basically means that he can see who my team is going up against, view their entire history to see what their powers and weaknesses are, and then summon any weaponry or gear he needs to take them down.

Prep:

My team can use their prep to do a number of things. First, Kang will use his temporal mastery to look into the future and see who is on your team, and then look into the timestream to gain full knowledge on your team. If for some reason this doesn't work, he can just summon this time-stream viewer which Noh-Varr, Spider-Man, and Iron Man invented for the same purpose:

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Avengers Vol. 4 #2

It shows them all the possible futures but also shows them the strongest transmission (ie. which is more likely to happen). So they will know your entire team's powers and plan for the battle to come, including telepathy, energy blasts, your whole soul-objects thing, regeneration, etc.

With that knowledge, my team will know exactly who they are facing, and what their powers are. Essentially, my team will be fully prepared for anything your team can do.

One of the most important devices my team can use, by getting Kang to summon it through time for him, would be Iron Man's genetic disruptor. It is able to completely depower heroes including Sentry, Ares, Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, etc.

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New Avengers Vol. 1 #55-57

The best part is that it can be targeted so it only depowers some people - as you can see in the last panel, villains like the Wrecking Crew, etc. are not depowered by the device. This means that Iron Man can use this device to depower your entire team without affecting Thor on our team. Given the wide variety of powers which this device has neutralized in the past, I'm sure it can do the same to your team.

Kang can also teleport Tony's z-gas and stun guns, which were able to take down the Silver Surfer.

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Silver Surfer Vol. 1 #17

Since no one on your team has any sort of gas filters, these fumes should take them down as they did the Silver Surfer (who doesn't even need to breathe).

Kang can also teleport Tony's security systems, which fire immobilization rays powerful enough to capture the likes of Thor, Vision, and Iron Man himself.

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The Avengers #119

They should be more than powerful enough to capture your team as well, since I'm not sure anyone on your team has the planetary level lifting strength of Thor, for example.

However, I'm not too sure whether the soul stealing stuff is a power or a piece of tech, so there's another option in case it's a piece of gear and thus immune to being depowered (and while I'm not too sure what it is, remember, my characters will know what it is since Kang's tech essentially gives them full knowledge). My team can completely wipe the planet clean of any life, if they have to. How will they do that? Well, it's quite simple.

Kang can teleport the Illuminati's arsenal of planet-busting anti-matter bombs onto the planet on which the battle takes place. The instant the battle begins, my team can teleport to the moon above, while Tony uses his technopathy to remote-detonate all the bombs on the planet. Unless your characters can show both a resistance to anti-matter annihilation, as well as the energy durability to withstand an attack several times above planet busting, this should completely wipe them out.

My team's final plan will be to use Kang's (severely discharged) cosmic cube to defeat your team. It only has enough energy in it to temporarily one-shot/KO Thanos, but since Thanos is above limits for this tourney, that should be more than enough to one-shot your composite character.

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Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 #19/25

Once all those devices are set up, there's just the final steps to our team's plan to worry about. Kang will summon an army of 20 Iron Man suits to the battlefield, which Tony can then control simultaneously, like this:

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New Avengers Vol. 1 Annual #1

Or this:

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Invincible Iron Man Vol. 2 #6

They will be a distraction for your team which will help my team carry out their plans without being attacked or bothered. Then, Thor charges Tony and the armor army up with a couple lightning bolts to significantly increase their power levels, while Tony activates his telepathic nullifier before the battle starts so that your team's telepathy is rendered useless. Kang also summons comm devices so the entire team can talk to each other remotely. Finally, Kang cloaks up the entire team and army, and Tony goes into phasing mode, to ensure that they won't be taken by surprise when the battle starts.

Strategy:

My team will start the battle completely cloaked up, with the telepathic nullifier up and running. If they see that your team isn't being affected by the genetic disruptor (ie. isn't immediately sickly and ill), they will teleport/fly to the moon pictured near the planet and remote detonate the anti-matter arsenal they left on the planet. Then, Tony will scan for signs of life, and if he finds any, my team will zap it with their Cosmic Cube, ensuring that it's dead.

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#21 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Edited by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099:Not sure how I should go about this, but I'll just counter what generally seems important, and as the debate goes on you'll probably reinforce all points of your strategy. So I'm winging it.

Counters: Round 2

It shows them all the possible futures but also shows them the strongest transmission (ie. which is more likely to happen). So they will know your entire team's powers and plan for the battle to come, including telepathy, energy blasts, your whole soul-objects thing, regeneration, etc.

With that knowledge, my team will know exactly who they are facing, and what their powers are. Essentially, my team will be fully prepared for anything your team can do.

I don't want to be that guy, considering how little I know of Kang, but I read the 6 issues in relation to this arc. Is this a perfect option? I want clarification so I'll ask anyway. If Kang has this as an option, why did he still ended up dying in various different stories? Like for example the one you showed from Avengers Issue 6, at the end of the Heroic Age, Kang still ends up dying.

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The other version of Kang that seemed to be fighting Ultron, also didn't seem to be aware that Ultron threw the fight because the avengers told him to.

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Again, I know nothing of your character, so this is why I am asking this.

One of the most important devices my team can use, by getting Kang to summon it through time for him, would be Iron Man's genetic disruptor. It is able to completely depower heroes including Sentry, Ares, Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, etc.

Isn't this device only for mutants? What proof is there that it would affect a being completely different from mutants like Buu, who existed since the beginning of time? Not only that, his powers are completely natural and also magic in nature. Negi, the person he's absorbing as well, is a being composed of entirely magic, Bakura is the same what with literally summoning demons, and possession souls. The genetic disruptor is ineffective against magical beings, it seems pretty effective on specifically mutants. It had literally no effect on Doctor Strange because the powers he channels are not necessarily genetic in the same way it is for Spiderman or Captain America. In fact Tony explicitly says magic isn't something he can account for.

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How would this effect Ki Manipulation? Or Magic? Those aren't naturally embedded in genetics. Also its a small and incredibly fragile device with no stated distance. Where would you place it that wouldn't immediately render it useless?

Kang can also teleport Tony's z-gas and stun guns, which were able to take down the Silver Surfer.

Since no one on your team has any sort of gas filters, these fumes should take them down as they did the Silver Surfer (who doesn't even need to breathe).

Kang can also teleport Tony's security systems, which fire immobilization rays powerful enough to capture the likes of Thor, Vision, and Iron Man himself.

Can you elaborate on SS's physiology and natural resistances? Because the Z-Fighters(saiyans and a namekian) were able to resist a gas called Destron, which was created by the Truffles, an advanced alien race(advanced enough to create technology to revive the dead as ghosts, conduct genetic experiments and the like) this gas was stated by Bulma to be capable of wiping out the all living things on earth in 70 days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y25ZVOo66Xc

Also If he doesn't need to breathe, how did it affect him? How many appearances does this gun have and are its effects consistently this effective? Because this seems like a one off PIS device that would usually never work in any other circumstance? And you mean to tell me stun guns made by tony worked out, when SS should operate on a way higher level than what tony's tech is capable of?

As for the security systems I doubt they would be useful in any meaningful way considering Buu was powerful enough to distort space around him literally by having a temper tantrum.

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Thor doesn't have the same level of raw power as Buu so I'm not sure this would be effective. Plus how would this stop him from simply blowing himself up?

Also a problem I have with this is the amount of stuff you are getting, you mean to tell me that Kang is going to get all those resources in under an hour? He is going to go to so many different timelines, to gather all these different weapons for a very specific scenario with absolutely no knowledge on his opponent asides from the fight that he will be observing? The Omni-Screen should only be able to tell him how the fight is going to go down, not in depth knowledge of who Buu is(considering he doesn't reside in any universe Kang has been to)

Kang can teleport the Illuminati's arsenal of planet-busting anti-matter bombs onto the planet on which the battle takes place. The instant the battle begins, my team can teleport to the moon above, while Tony uses his technopathy to remote-detonate all the bombs on the planet. Unless your characters can show both a resistance to anti-matter annihilation, as well as the energy durability to withstand an attack several times above planet busting, this should completely wipe them out.

Buu has regenerative powers, and scales massively above characters who outright tanked planetary explosions point blank. He scales above SSJ1 Goku who destroyed a star with a kamehameha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bscHl76z3bk

And Buu can also generate barriers(1:15)

https://youtu.be/IgLIVeK6TSs

That managed to hold of Vegito, the same Vegito who successfully fended off an attack way beyond planet busting with a simple catch and a kick. Goku as an SSJ1(basically fodder) accomplished the same thing.

Buu's barriers should hold off if not be perfectly fine against the anti-matter bombs, especially considering Broly as a child, created a barrier strong enough to protect him from a planet busting explosion. Negi can also create barriers for defense as well, so we can set up various layers of defensive shields.

Remember when Kid Buu destroyed the earth with an overkill planet busting attack?(it was stated to be enough to destroy the planet 10 times over in other translations and in the anime) Kid Buu put up no defense for himself, but still easily regenerated from the damage.

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I'm honestly sure he'd be fine. Oh what's stopping Buu from simply flying off the planet since you guys teleported there? With the intellect of Super Buu combined with the combat instincts, and intelligence of Negi, and the survival instincts of Bakura, he should have enough common sense to outrace the explosions and get off the planet if needed.

My team's final plan will be to use Kang's (severely discharged) cosmic cube to defeat your team. It only has enough energy in it to temporarily one-shot/KO Thanos, but since Thanos is above limits for this tourney, that should be more than enough to one-shot your composite character.

How is thanos above limits? And like I argued for some of the other devices, what are the chances, Kang actually gets that many resources to beat an opponent he will have no knowledge on? Kang has been in several fights, but was that the only time he made use of a discharged cosmic cube? Thanos has no regenerative powers that allow him to regenerate from an multi-planet explosion. In addition, he was just resurrected, feral, and not at his best when he got "one-shotted"

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in this same issue, people like Drax and Groot were staggering him.(Although he beat them panels later) It was also implied in the story "Thanos Imperative- Ignition" that Thanos was weakened after being killed and revived, and that he was slowly getting his power back and that the guardians would no longer be able to contain him.(Rocket confirms this again when he finally escapes) So I question what a damaged cosmic cube can do if all it did was take down a weakened Thanos. Which I am not sure we can quantify in terms of potency. Buu should be fine if that's all it was capable of accomplishing.

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They will be a distraction for your team which will help my team carry out their plans without being attacked or bothered. Then, Thor charges Tony and the armor army up with a couple lightning bolts to significantly increase their power levels, while Tony activates his telepathic nullifier before the battle starts so that your team's telepathy is rendered useless. Kang also summons comm devices so the entire team can talk to each other remotely. Finally, Kang cloaks up the entire team and army, and Tony goes into phasing mode, to ensure that they won't be taken by surprise when the battle starts.

Is this something that consistently happens? Also the iron men still won't really be a threat so they can stay on the planet if they'd like. Also have fun on the moon, we'll meet you up there as soon as we can sense you, or simply blow it up instantly killing your team

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Good luck utilizing a cloaking power against someone who's wiped out a portion of humanity with precise blasts to hit each one.

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Or when he sensed Gohan from across the universe at the Sacred World of The Kais

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You may have technological cloaking, but not spiritual/life force cloaking.

Also Buu can immediately teleport to the moon as soon as he realizes your there or like I said blow it up.(the planet he teleports to is the sacred world of the kais, which is literally across the universe, to be more accurate, outside of it. He literally got there just by teleporting.

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The biggest threat here seems to be the anti-matter explosions. But you provided no feats or information on Anti-Matter in the marvel universe, so as far as I am concerned they are plain planet busting bombs, since you shown no feats for them. Which Buu should comfortably be able to regenerate from considering he had no issues regenerating from his own explosions instantly back to back in the anime.

How I think things will go.

I think it would be redundant to go into other abilities my composite will have, seeing as your strategy is pretty straight forward and has no answer for simple raw power anyway.

My team will start the battle completely cloaked up, with the telepathic nullifier up and running. If they see that your team isn't being affected by the genetic disruptor (ie. isn't immediately sickly and ill), they will teleport/fly to the moon pictured near the planet and remote detonate the anti-matter arsenal they left on the planet. Then, Tony will scan for signs of life, and if he finds any, my team will zap it with their Cosmic Cube, ensuring that it's dead.

You didn't put any sensory feats for Silver Surfer, but Buu was capable of sensing people from outside of the universe, was capable of targeting a large number of the earthling population(I say this because when he first appeared he destroyed at least a quarter of the population on earth) The genetic disruptor isn't guaranteed to work, and even if it does, it will be destroyed either by accident by my character or by your own bombs. Also the instant the genetic disruptor fails, your team gets blitzed across the planet, immediately ragdolled by TK or even nuked the instant the fight begins. The cosmic cube, based off only being able to barely KO a weakened thanos, I doubt it will take out Buu. And I can provide feats to attest to that. Even if you manage to escape to the moon, there shouldn't be any reason why Buu couldn't sense you even on the moon.

Again, I am open to being corrected

That concludes my post

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#26 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: Counters & Rebuttals

Counters:

I don't want to be that guy, considering how little I know of Kang, but I read the 6 issues in relation to this arc. Is this a perfect option? I want clarification so I'll ask anyway. If Kang has this as an option, why did he still ended up dying in various different stories? Like for example the one you showed from Avengers Issue 6, at the end of the Heroic Age, Kang still ends up dying.

Honestly, I'd just chalk it up to PIS/WIS. Kang has multiple showings of being able to view the timestream in its entirety, but he needs to be defeated somehow.

Isn't this device only for mutants? What proof is there that it would affect a being completely different from mutants like Buu, who existed since the beginning of time? Not only that, his powers are completely natural and also magic in nature. Negi, the person he's absorbing as well, is a being composed of entirely magic, Bakura is the same what with literally summoning demons, and possession souls.

It's not only for mutants; it worked on people like the Sentry and Spider-Man who aren't mutants. However, you are right in that it has no feats against magically powered characters, so I'll concede this point.

Can you elaborate on SS's physiology and natural resistances? Because the Z-Fighters(saiyans and a namekian) were able to resist a gas called Destron, which was created by the Truffles, an advanced alien race(advanced enough to create technology to revive the dead as ghosts, conduct genetic experiments and the like) this gas was stated by Bulma to be capable of wiping out the all living things on earth in 70 days.

Sure. Surfer is pretty impressive in that regard as well, with some similar feats. He has extremely impressive feats of being able to not only be immune to diseases which can wipe out planetary populations, but also even be able to cure them on the molecular level and create universal antibodies. If anything, I'd say this puts him above your characters in terms of physiology.

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Also If he doesn't need to breathe, how did it affect him?

Well I mean it's not like comics have ever taken an interest in explaining all the bullshit science that goes on. Maybe it's a gas that works on contact with skin? I have no idea.

How many appearances does this gun have and are its effects consistently this effective?

It has one appearance and was used on Surfer twice. Both times, it was that effective.

Because this seems like a one off PIS device that would usually never work in any other circumstance? And you mean to tell me stun guns made by tony worked out, when SS should operate on a way higher level than what tony's tech is capable of?

I'm not sure why it is "a one-off PIS device", as you put it. Tony and SHIELD were working together to take down Silver Surfer, and they succeeded. I don't see why that's PIS. If the writer (Stan Lee himself) didn't think Tony was capable of that, he could have just as easily replaced Stark's role in the story with Reed or Pym or whoever else.

As for the security systems I doubt they would be useful in any meaningful way considering Buu was powerful enough to distort space around him literally by having a temper tantrum.

Fair enough.

Also a problem I have with this is the amount of stuff you are getting, you mean to tell me that Kang is going to get all those resources in under an hour? He is going to go to so many different timelines, to gather all these different weapons for a very specific scenario with absolutely no knowledge on his opponent asides from the fight that he will be observing?

Kang will also be viewing your characters' pasts in addition to the fight itself. Furthermore, Kang doesn't need to actually go and get all this tech, he can just summon it to him and it will be there instantaneously. I already posted a couple instances of him doing this in my opener, but here's another instance of him doing it if you want:

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Buu has regenerative powers, and scales massively above characters who outright tanked planetary explosions point blank. He scales above SSJ1 Goku who destroyed a star with a kamehameha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bscHl76z3bk

And Buu can also generate barriers(1:15)

https://youtu.be/IgLIVeK6TSs

That managed to hold of Vegito, the same Vegito who successfully fended off an attack way beyond planet busting with a simple catch and a kick. Goku as an SSJ1(basically fodder) accomplished the same thing.

Buu's barriers should hold off if not be perfectly fine against the anti-matter bombs, especially considering Broly as a child, created a barrier strong enough to protect him from a planet busting explosion. Negi can also create barriers for defense as well, so we can set up various layers of defensive shields.

Remember when Kid Buu destroyed the earth with an overkill planet busting attack?(it was stated to be enough to destroy the planet 10 times over in other translations and in the anime) Kid Buu put up no defense for himself, but still easily regenerated from the damage.

I'm honestly sure he'd be fine. Oh what's stopping Buu from simply flying off the planet since you guys teleported there? With the intellect of Super Buu combined with the combat instincts, and intelligence of Negi, and the survival instincts of Bakura, he should have enough common sense to outrace the explosions and get off the planet if needed.

My major problem with these counters to anti-matter bombs is that they ignore how anti-matter actually works. An anti-matter explosion isn't just an energy attack. It annihilates every single subatomic particle in its way. Unless your characters have shown the ability to resist attacks on the subatomic level, they're dead. Furthermore, my team has an armory filled with them. Escaping one isn't going to be good enough. If your team manages to survive the first one and comes after my team, Tony can use his technopathy to annihilate the other 100 bombs around my team. Thor has resistance to anti-matter so he'll be fine, while Tony's composite armor includes intangibility tech. This would mean my team makes it out alive, while your characters are dead.

Furthermore, my team has a way to stop yours from escaping the planet. AFAIK, you didn't show any physical strength feats. Kang can, with a single touch, bury your composite character under the weight of half a planet.

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The effect persists even after Kang stops touching Thor directly, as you can see. This means Kang can touch your character in the beginning of the battle, leaving him trapped on the planet. After that, my team will bomb your team to hell.

How is thanos above limits?

ET said Thanos is the limit/above limits for this tourney when I asked him.

How is thanos above limits? And like I argued for some of the other devices, what are the chances, Kang actually gets that many resources to beat an opponent he will have no knowledge on? Kang has been in several fights, but was that the only time he made use of a discharged cosmic cube? Thanos has no regenerative powers that allow him to regenerate from an multi-planet explosion. In addition, he was just resurrected, feral, and not at his best when he got "one-shotted"

Sure, but cosmic cubes can be used for much more than just simple blasts. That was just an example of how much power was still left within it. Cosmic Cubes are fundamentally reality warping weapons, which is what their main use is for.

Is this something that consistently happens?

Yes, Iron Man consistently absorbs energy to amp his armors up, even in modern days. Here's one of the more recent instances of it happening with Thor's lightning, in Iron Man's Bleeding Edge armor.

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This amped him up to near Thor level, so pretty impressive for the fodder Iron Man armors.

Good luck utilizing a cloaking power against someone who's wiped out a portion of humanity with precise blasts to hit each one.

Or when he sensed Gohan from across the universe at the Sacred World of The Kais

You may have technological cloaking, but not spiritual/life force cloaking.

Well then, isn't it just great that Surfer has done all that and more?

  • Surfer can sense things on the subatomic scale as well as solar systems away
  • Surfer can sense a single molecule as it travels galaxies away
  • Surfer can detect energy concentrations throughout the entire universe
  • While depowered, Surfer says that if he had his powers he could have detected Johnny Storm's death from half a universe away
  • Surfer can literally smell life, even on a nano scale
  • Surfer can sense emotion
  • Surfer can sense psionic energy
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If Kang's cloaking works against all that, including Surfer's own life force/emotional/spiritual senses, it will definitely work against your team's senses.

The biggest threat here seems to be the anti-matter explosions. But you provided no feats or information on Anti-Matter in the marvel universe, so as far as I am concerned they are plain planet busting bombs, since you shown no feats for them.

What feats should I show? Anti-matter is a scientific concept, not some sort of fictional made-up bullshit science. Anti-matter is a defined word with defined meanings, not something that needs feats...

You didn't put any sensory feats for Silver Surfer, but Buu was capable of sensing people from outside of the universe, was capable of targeting a large number of the earthling population(I say this because when he first appeared he destroyed at least a quarter of the population on earth)

Well, I rectified that quite nicely, didn't I? Your team has no way of hurting my team since they have no way of detecting my team.

Strategy:

Kang traps your team under the weight of half a planet, and then Stark uses his technopathy to bombard your team with anti-matter bombs. While your team may be able to take the raw power output of an anti-matter bomb, they seem to have no answer for the fact that anti-matter works on a subatomic level. Anyways, that's it.

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#31 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by emperorthanos- (16574 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: @blackspidey2099: It's been more than 2 and half months. You guys have both gotten two posts. I think I'm just going open to votes unless you guys think you can get a post each before the 3 month mark.

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#35 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I can probably get my post up a day or two after he responds. So I'm good with either option.

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#36 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I'll get a post up today.

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#37 Edited by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: I only have two hours so I'll try to sum this up as quickly as possible by responding to what I feel is the most important. I'm basically wining this as I go, just like last post, so sorry for the drop in quality.

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Final Round

Honestly, I'd just chalk it up to PIS/WIS. Kang has multiple showings of being able to view the timestream in its entirety, but he needs to be defeated somehow.

If that's the case isn't it equally dubious that a lot of the things he managed to acquire across timelines he never went out of his way to acquire again? Or the fact that he easily got them in the first place? Heck if this ability of his to easily gather stuff across timelines is so great, how come he's never done something like steal the infinity gems and cosmic cubes during the infinity war? He went through the process of working alongside Doctor Doom in order to go through all that trouble but still lost the fight in The Infinity War #5 - Psychomachia! when Doom does most of the heavily lifting beating Magus, and then gets betrayed by Doom in the end. The crazy thing is, he sounded so confident as if he planned for everything.

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Like legit, he either jobs or doesn't do as much in characters as you say or there is something I am missing regarding his technology and/or his powers in general because he clearly doesn't know everything at any given moment or prepares for something to happen constantly.

So what guarantee is there that he would factor in anti-matter bombs? Or Tony's very very specific tech that he used to take out Silver Surfer? Or the the security system? If he's lost fights so many times, and has been in situations where he had to team up with the Avengers on multiple occasions, how perfect is his ability to see the past, present, and future?

It's not only for mutants; it worked on people like the Sentry and Spider-Man who aren't mutants. However, you are right in that it has no feats against magically powered characters, so I'll concede this point.

Even then how does it work? What's the detailed explanation for the device? Does it just sap people with powers? It doesn't make sense. I read the issues it was involved in and it barely elaborated on how it works. It just does. And I'm not sure if that's usable in the context of a cross-universe debate if there's no actual explanation. Also you didn't answer my question from before even if it is a threat:

How would this effect Ki Manipulation? Or Magic? Also its a small and incredibly fragile device with no stated distance. Where would you place it that wouldn't immediately render it useless?

Ki manipulation is something completely natural in the DBZ universe and the Negima universe so how does that work? Do these natural abilities register as powers? Does anybody who was born with super strength lose their super strength? How does it work?

I'm not sure why it is "a one-off PIS device", as you put it. Tony and SHIELD were working together to take down Silver Surfer, and they succeeded. I don't see why that's PIS. If the writer (Stan Lee himself) didn't think Tony was capable of that, he could have just as easily replaced Stark's role in the story with Reed or Pym or whoever else.

Because you presented amazing resistance feats for SS that make me question why a device that Tony and Shield worked was enough to take him out? I'd understand if this was Reed or someone of his caliber because he has done some absurd shit, but Tony and Shield taking out the Silver Surfer? That definitely sounds like PIS to me. Is there any other similar moments done by Tony Stark that bolsters the credibility of him pulling this off?

Well I mean it's not like comics have ever taken an interest in explaining all the bullshit science that goes on. Maybe it's a gas that works on contact with skin? I have no idea.

.....That's not a viable defense, and I'll come back to this when we discuss anti-matter.

Kang will also be viewing your characters' pasts in addition to the fight itself.

Furthermore, Kang doesn't need to actually go and get all this tech, he can just summon it to him and it will be there instantaneously. I already posted a couple instances of him doing this in my opener, but here's another instance of him doing it if you want:

How? Buu, Negi and Bakura come from three separate universes entirely and you don't have full or even basic knowledge so you don't know what to look for. And you only have an hour to specifically look for what you specifically want for this specific fight, when you might not even know you will need it since you know nothing about your opponent. What are the chances Kang steals the entire stockpile of anti-matter bombs or decides that he needs it? Yes Tony Stark is on the team, but would he even agree to using the bombs off the bat after what everyone went through simply for a random death match? You have no knowledge so there isn't any guarantee you would even resort to half of the stuff you argued you would bring into the fight, my characters shouldn't be ones you could simply look up history on so you know nothing about them.

So he can do this without prep? So I assume he jobs and literally never does this in the various other combat situations he has been in or what? I'm kind of confused because you didn't really talk about the origin of this convenient tech or how often he uses it on the scale you are proposing. Even if I simply shut up and take this at face value, I'm expected to believe that you are going to look into the respective histories of all my characters, look into their greatest moments, their lowest moments, their powers and abilities and how they developed them, get all the weaponry necessary to counter them, and set up all in an hour? I just don't see the credibility in this. Maybe if you had another hour or two, or maybe longer, but it seems like a little much for even Kang, especially when there seems to be actual stories where he doesn't go out of his way to do this much research, look into the future deeply, and straight up win in general. There's also the other things I mentioned before on how he seemingly doesn't prepare for everything seeing how The Avengers told Ultron to throw the fight and he was completely unaware? Or how he lost or was double-crossed in some fights or stories?

My major problem with these counters to anti-matter bombs is that they ignore how anti-matter actually works. An anti-matter explosion isn't just an energy attack. It annihilates every single subatomic particle in its way. Unless your characters have shown the ability to resist attacks on the subatomic level, they're dead. Furthermore, my team has an armory filled with them. Escaping one isn't going to be good enough.

If your team manages to survive the first one and comes after my team, Tony can use his technopathy to annihilate the other 100 bombs around my team. Thor has resistance to anti-matter so he'll be fine, while Tony's composite armor includes intangibility tech. This would mean my team makes it out alive, while your characters are dead.

But the scan I showed of the actual anti-matter explosion didn't look like that, it looked like an ordinary planetary explosion, otherwise everything would have been vaporized at once without a trace of debris.

How will tony know we survive the first one? And if he does know, after surviving the first one what's stopping Buu from teleporting off the planet, which would be the easiest and most simplest solution? Also what feats does Thor have that suggests he would surivive hundreds of anti-matter bombs let alone planet busting bombs in general? And would Tony's intangibility tech truly protect him from this anti-matter explosions as well?

Furthermore, my team has a way to stop yours from escaping the planet. AFAIK, you didn't show any physical strength feats. Kang can, with a single touch, bury your composite character under the weight of half a planet.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The effect persists even after Kang stops touching Thor directly, as you can see. This means Kang can touch your character in the beginning of the battle, leaving him trapped on the planet. After that, my team will bomb your team to hell.

Another oddly specific ability, but the instant he attempts to touch Buu is the instant he gets attacked and killed, especially considering my composite likely has far better reflexes than Kang.

Sure, but cosmic cubes can be used for much more than just simple blasts. That was just an example of how much power was still left within it. Cosmic Cubes are fundamentally reality warping weapons, which is what their main use is for.

Can a discharged Cosmic Cube be used for much more? Literally nothing you are describing here is relevant because you are using the specific cube the guardians used to knock out a weakened Thanos.

What feats should I show? Anti-matter is a scientific concept, not some sort of fictional made-up bullshit science. Anti-matter is a defined word with defined meanings, not something that needs feats...

Well tell that to Super Skrull who's fire manipulation apparently had anti-matter properties that allowed it to destroy mountains.... not completely vaporize them.

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Or reed who used an anti-matter gun to pierce the armor of a celestial

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And somehow also used Anti-Matter to stop Franklin Richards from going out of control with his powers.

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Yes Anti-Matter works in a particular way, but apparently marvel like you said takes little to no interest in how science works, so who's to say the anti-matter bombs which were generally just made to destroy planets would actually have the properties necessary to completely take out someone who could likely survive hundreds of planet busting attacks anyway, without the subatomic destruction being a factor? On top of having regenerative abilities and the ability to turn himself intangible by transforming himself into lightning?

Well, I rectified that quite nicely, didn't I? Your team has no way of hurting my team since they have no way of detecting my team.

Fine, then I argue my team defends(via barriers) or escapes the planetary explosions, which they have the capacity to do by simply teleporting,(and with the mentatlity, of all the people Buu's asborbed, plus the tactical minds of Negi and Bakura, this is definitely an option) and after the bombs have detonated, your only route to try at that point would be the cosmic cube which barely KO'd a weakened Thanos, who should realistically be weaker than characters of Buu's tier in such a state.

In Conclusion

I do not think you can pull off everything you said you would in your strategy, also the chances of you doing so is unlikely given Kang's track record, of seemingly jobbing and never using his temporal manipulation and resources to its fullest. Anti-Matter as a whole seems to be a case by case basis, and the anti-matter bombs by the illumanti, might not even be used and there's no specific reason why they would be used in a random battle with no knowledge. It doesn't help either that Kang, Tony and Thor might not even work together right off the bat, so you would also have to take the time to converse on the situation, then start preparing your defenses. It honestly seems like a stretch that your team can do in depth research on mine, also prepare for an alternative by getting a time-viewer that Tony and others have made, in case his basic means for looking into the future doesn't work, after looking into the future or even the past to do research, get all the necessary materials, prep them into position all in an hour. Kang has an impressive track record, but also has a track record that suggests he wouldn't even feel the need to go this far which may lead to him not accounting for certain factors he knows nothing about.

Thanks for the awesome debate, I learnt a lot and now have more characters I want to read up on, good luck in voting friend.

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#38 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio