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#1 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Teams

@higorm:

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  • Cyclops (1/5 Phoenix Force)
  • Storm
  • Iceman
  • 15 Minutes Prep

@jacthripper:

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  • Composite Ultron
  • The Maker
  • Hank Pym
  • Lelouch Vi Brittania
  • Stark Prep Package

Rules

  • No power absorption of any kind
  • No cloning
  • No Dr. Doom
  • No Flash or Reverse Flash
  • No characters that can and would bust an inhabited planet in character just to take out an enemy
  • No time manipulation, although speedsters are allowed
  • No character that can solo New 52 Captain Atom and Silver Surfer at once in character
  • Fight takes place here
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#2 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by MasterKungFu (20773 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

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#5 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: @jacthripper: shall we begin?

Characters Presentation

Phoenix Force Cyclops

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While in possession of a fraction of the Phoenix Force as a member of the Phoenix Five, Cyclops gained a myriad of powerful cosmic abilities. He possessed complete control over his optic blasts, interstellar flight, vast psionic powers including telepathy and telekinesis, and manipulation of the destructive and creative cosmic energy of the Phoenix.Cyclops' optic blasts were greatly increased in power, as he was able to effortlessly match Gladiator's heat vision. His immense telekinetic power was sufficient to stop Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, in mid-swing with relative ease. While in possession of half the Phoenix's vast power, Cyclops was capable of simultaneously defeating multiple Avengers with a single optic blast.

Iceman - Omega Level Mutant

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The youngest member of the original X-Men, who possess vast control over ice, the ability to instantly decrease the temperature of ambient water vapor in his immediate environment to below zero degrees Celsius. He can also freeze the moisture in the air and can create objects such as slides, ladders, and projectiles. He can reform any part of his body in his ice form, and can augment his shape and size. He has demonstrated the ability to animate ice forms by creating figures and through rapid freezing and unfreezing of their structure, and thus creating movement.

Storm - The Weather Witch

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Gifted with the power to control the forces and elements that govern weather Storm stands among the most powerful mutants on the planet. A former thief, “goddess”, and queen, Storm is a veteran member and mainstay of the X-Men. She is the team’s field leader and the Headmistress of the Jean Grey School.

15 Minutes for Prep

1. Knowledge - Cyclops will access the infinite knowledge of the Phoenix to get any information the team needs.

>

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2. Awakening - By using his vast telepathic powers, Cyclops will unlock the full potential in his teammates.

Stormis considered to be an Alpha Level Mutant, but in more than one occasion has been said she holds the potential for being a Omega Level mutant, as seen in Black Panther Vol. 4 #21 and Origin of Marvel Comics: X-Men #1. We also have Wilson's CBR interview of G. Willow Wilson: "when you've got [...] characters [...], and some of whom, like Storm, are these Omega mutants that are super-overpowered"

As for Iceman,his powers aren't used as their most, but have been unlocked on some occasions by encountering Loki, Mikhail Rasputin and Emma Frost. On other occasions, he was unlocked by telepaths, such as Psylocke (Dark Reign: The List - X-Men #1).

Results:

>

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3.Environment Control

At this point, Storm will use her powers to create appropriate conditions for Iceman to acquire full control of the map and essentially achieve omnipresence.

4. Fight! - Now as soon the battle starts my team will be ready to use their full potential against your team, as it will be further explained into the next strategy post.

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#6 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Nice opener, I'll get mine up soon!

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#7 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by darkseid1006 (4076 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: props for using Lelouch, does he have his geass here then?

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#9 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Time to meet my Harbingers of Doom!

Ultron [Earth-616]

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An unparalleled artificial intelligence and one of the most dangerous villains ever to threaten the planet, Ultron is my big gun, and is undoubtedly the most deadly member of my team. For this match, he is composite, meaning he has all the tech he has ever used in his body. This makes him a versatile monster with all sorts of tricks up his sleeve. Here's what he brings to the table:

  • Class 100 Strength
  • High Level Energy Manipulation
  • Nigh-Unstoppable Technopathy
  • Virtually Indestructible Body
  • Much, much, much more

Henry Pym [Earth-616]

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The creator of Ultron, Hank Pym is the Scientist Supreme of Earth. He is here for his experience with the Pym Particles, as well as his unparalleled expertise in channeling magic into scientific terms. He brings his intellect and size changing skills, as well as his talent at wife beating.

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Reed Richards [Earth-1610]

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A twisted genius and brilliant psychopath, The Maker is my crafter, who is capable of engineering insane weapons. In addition to his intellect, he's practically immortal and extremely durable, even possessing resistance to matter manipulation. He lends his intellect, a few gadgets, and his powers to this fight.

Lelouch Vi Brittania [Code Geass]

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The Emperor of Brittania and the World, Lelouch has one confirmed power, the ability to make anyone obey his absolute command, it's power so great that he could even command what was called God, but was more likely the Collective Human Consciousness by the way it was defined. He could also possibly be immortal (the creators left it up to viewer interpretation) so I'm not going to use that here.

Phase 1 [Preparation]

Thanks to the Stark Prep Package, I have been granted 5 days with access to the mind of Tony Stark and access to his resources for the prep phase. During this time, the following will happen:

Day 1

  • Ultron command the others to obey him with his own mind control devices, which should work to my knowledge. In case it doesn't hold, he will have Lelouch command the others to always obey Ultron's commands. He will also fuse with Hank Pym (he recently did this in the comics). From here, he will enter their minds and extract the knowledge of the Maker. Because of the 900 years of knowledge Ultron has to process, I'll say this takes a day, though it probably would take less time. He will also (being the multitasker that he is) assimilate all technology within the building and on his compatriots. This will give him access to a plethora of technology, most notably for the moment, a depower gun which will be modified to become omnidirectional.

Days 2-5

  • Ultron will begin creating an army of himself, similar to the ones seen in Age of Ultron. This means they should each be carrying enough firepower to oneshot kill She-Hulk, and if necessary, self-detonate in a nuclear explosion. He will also recreate an android duplicate of the Vision, one that will simply be another extension of his will. During this time he will again use the Babel Spire like technics to create an Anti-Matter Bomb, capable of completely wiping out a city, which Hank wills shrink down using Pym Particles. Ultron will also infuse his teammates with the Bleeding Edge Armor, with built in filters to the Zombie Virus. He will also mass produce his microbots, modified with the same tech as he depower gun. Ultron will also access Tony Stark's database on the superhumans of Earth, and how to best deal with them.

Phase 2 [Combat and Annihilation]

The Harbingers arrive will arrive in true style, descending from the skies, surrounded by their army. The air will be flooded with a dangerous poison, a mixture of the Phalanx and Zombie Virus, in airborne form. This should infect Storm, and even possibly Iceman. A swarm of microbots will swarm around each member of your team, and activate their depower ray. This should depower your whole team, even Scott, and give the Harbingers a relatively easy win. How, you may ask? The depower gun has actually depowered a being empowered by the Phoenix in his universe, as well as mutants. For example, he depowered Franklin Richards, a Phoenix Empowered individual from the future. He also depowered Sue Storm, as well as an Iceman.

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Yes, that is Franklin on fire, not Johnny. This guy.

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And with your team depowered, the Harbingers kill the petty humans placed before them.

Phase 3 [Rebuttals and Conclusions]

1. Knowledge - Cyclops will access the infinite knowledge of the Phoenix to get any information the team needs.

Just a question. It seems that the question had a direct answer. So it seems like you'd be spending a bit asking questions.

Oh, and conclusion- You dead

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#11 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: cool, let's get down to business!

> Teamwork

I'm skeptical in regard to your team being able to work together as a team. You made a crazy mix of hero, anti-hero and villain. Considering that you don't have any kind of perfect teamwork perk and your stark prep perk doesn't grant any sort of synergy, I believe you will have trouble with your team working together from the start. Despite the fact of having different and conflicting personalities in the same team, you have past stories between Ultron and Hank Pym. I'm sure none of them would agree to work with him, especially Pym.

Now, this is so much true that in order to overcome this situation you had to set Ultron to mind control all of them at once. I find it hard to believe that this move would be so easily performed considering that Ult. Reed Richards alone possess means to defend himself from it. He packs Psy Proof Shields Suits, and was able to infect a technopath that tried to hack his mind.

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In addition to that, we have Lelouch who of all the Geass abilities in the series, has been explored the most, and also seems to have the most restrictions and side effects of any Geass introduced:

  • Only affects the nervous system.
  • Commands must be issued verbally.
  • The victim must make direct eye contact for commands to be issued. The maximum effective distance is 272 meters. Line of sight via a reflective surface is sufficient for the effect to occur.
  • Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken.
  • The victim will not perform any action disallowed by their physical or mental capabilities, though they will try to carry out the command to the best of their ability. For example, a victim will not be able to correctly answer a question they don't know the answer to, but will direct the user to someone who can if they are able.
  • An action will be carried out for as long as dictated in its command, or upon the indicated conditional circumstance. Eye contact does not need to be maintained for command execution to occur. No upper limit has been established, but the conditional command Lelouch gives Suzaku is still in effect more than a year later.
  • The victim's memories for the duration of command issue and execution are sealed and cannot be recalled.
  • As demonstrated in Princess Euphemia's response to the command that she kill the Japanese, a victim may resist a commanded action to some degree if it is utterly repugnant and morally incomprehensible to them.

> Phalanx/Zombie Virus airborne strike

The problem with this is that you are trying to drop your poison in a completely controlled environment. Do you honestly believe that the swarm of microbots will be able to move considering that Iceman is there to lower the temperature to absolute zero?

While weakened, Bobby manage to lower the temperature to -150, he then claims to be able to quickly get it down to Absolute Zero on a good day, and the good they has come my friend! He got Storm on his side creating all necessary conditions for his powers to work even better. You may ask how can she survive right next to him in such a freeze right?

>

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In matter of fact, none of your team members will be able to move a single inch. As soon as the battle start you have a frozen army by your side.

I'm sure once your team realizes that they are hopeless in such a adverse condition, PF Cyclops can pretty much dismantle them with one gesture..

>

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Just a question. It seems that the question had a direct answer. So it seems like you'd be spending a bit asking questions.

Not really, the host possess instant interaction with the Phoenix Force, that scan only shows them explaining it to Storm.

Conclusion

As explained, your strike won't work at the given scenario, so the depower move is out of the table. Your team does not have an satisfactory answer for either of my teammates, so once you step into the battlefield the fight is over.

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#12 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Phase 4 [Rebuttals]

I'm skeptical in regard to your team being able to work together as a team. You made a crazy mix of hero, anti-hero and villain. Considering that you don't have any kind of perfect teamwork perk and your stark prep perk doesn't grant any sort of synergy, I believe you will have trouble with your team working together from the start. Despite the fact of having different and conflicting personalities in the same team, you have past stories between Ultron and Hank Pym. I'm sure none of them would agree to work with him, especially Pym.

On this matter a few notes

  1. Ultron could very likely mentally destroy all present parties, but you need to read my second sentence, where it explains that if he could not, he would simply make Lelouch do it. You also should know, that Pricess Euphemia, who you cited, resisted it for about 15 seconds, then went on a killing spree, and it was an accident on Lelouch's part. Watch
  2. With Pym, he will actually be fused with Ultron, as he was rather recently. This happened when Ultron realized he had all of Pym's memories, and set it up so that they would fuse, he can do that again here.
  3. One of the first things that Ultron did was beat up Pym, and hypnotize him, he's done it a ridiculous amount of times. He won't have any trouble with that.
  4. Should have specified, but Ultron will be using this device to extract Reed's thoughts. It should only take a few moments.

So, to sum it up, teamwork will not be a problem, it should in fact be nigh perfect. In fact, Storm and Iceman were wary, if not a bit scared, of the P5, so they'd have to likely be forced to let Scott unlock their "full potential"

The problem with this is that you are trying to drop your poison in a completely controlled environment. Do you honestly believe that the swarm of microbots will be able to move considering that Iceman is there to lower the temperature to absolute zero?

Now, while I am aware that Iceman is capable of achieving extremely low temperatures, the only time I've ever seen him try to achieve Absolute Zero was when fighting Kuurth, and it failed, so we don't know if he can actually achieve this temperature, much less maintain them in an atmosphere that is being controlled by another (Storm). You must realize that by freezing the atmosphere as such, you would also hinder your own teammates, because at those temperatures, Storms weather manipulation would be severely limited.

However, worry not, I have a tactic to counter your "cold field." While Iceman can keep it cold, what happens when a Nuke gets dropped there? Yes, you heard me right, because the handy dandy Ultron duplicates can become one, just like so.

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What will this do? It'll burn straight through that cold, and probably get rid of all the water, and Storm for that matter. Now, I know you're thinking this "won't that create an EMP?" Fortunately, Stark Tech, and Ultron have both been EMP immune for quite some time, and considering that Iron Man in an inferior armor (Extremis) tanked a Nuke at 1%, the Harbingers should also be able to effortlessley. With the nuke dropped this will happen directly afterwards.

  • The Vision duplicate will streak to the skies and increase his density as much as possible, achieving results similar to this.

I'm sure once your team realizes that they are hopeless in such a adverse condition, PF Cyclops can pretty much dismantle them with one gesture..

Except for one thing, that image is Cyclops when in control of half the Phoenix Force, more than twice the power he has been given here.

As explained, your strike won't work at the given scenario, so the depower move is out of the table. Your team does not have an satisfactory answer for either of my teammates, so once you step into the battlefield the fight is over.

So, what do you think of this strike? And yes, I can come up with scenarios all day long, and I haven't even started using Ultron himself yet. Good luck!

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#13 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: How much time do we still have, I'll be able to post tomorrow.

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#15 Edited by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Beats me with a hammer

I'll ask in the PM

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#16 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Oh, and I should hopefully have my rebuttal to your post up by tomorrow if not Friday. How many more posts do you think we need? Id say we need two more standards and one conclusion.

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#17 Posted by Jonez_ (11443 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please. This looks phenomenal.

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#18 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonez120: Will do. The match is phenomenal as you said, this is definitely the best debate I've had in a long time.

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#19 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Agreed, and it's always a pleasure to debate with you my friend :)

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#20 Edited by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Indeed! It's always a good debate with you. Especially since it means I don't have a round against a "random."

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#21 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: ;P

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The Rebuttals

> Teamwork!

I can buy your argument for Hank Pym and maybe Lelouche but Ult. Reed is a whole different story. I didn't saw a convincing argument from your part about his Psy-proof Shield Suit, which was able to defend him from a technopath, being able to infect the intruder that was trying to hack his mind.

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Should have specified, but Ultron will be using this device to extract Reed's thoughts. It should only take a few moments.

That's great but the scan does not show how efficient is the device. It does show the guy trying to resist it, which gives me the idea that others could resist too. I'm sure it won't work against The Maker.

> Iceman!

Now, while I am aware that Iceman is capable of achieving extremely low temperatures, the only time I've ever seen him try to achieve Absolute Zero was when fighting Kuurth, and it failed, so we don't know if he can actually achieve this temperature, much less maintain them in an atmosphere that is being controlled by another (Storm). You must realize that by freezing the atmosphere as such, you would also hinder your own teammates, because at those temperatures, Storms weather manipulation would be severely limited.

The fight against Kuurth only show us that he can achieve absolute zero. The fact it wasn't able to stop the character doesn't matter here since you don't have such powers.

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So far I've presented two instances about the absolute zero possibility, this one and the other when he states he can reach it on a good day. I'm sure that with Storm's weather control helping him he can reach it pretty easily. As for her being limited, I've already presented how Iceman can prevent his teammates from being affected by such power.

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So basically Storm won't feel a thing. She can control the weather from distance while Iceman lowers the temperature to absolute zero, severely hindering your whole team, preventing them from moving a inch.

> Moving on!

However, worry not, I have a tactic to counter your "cold field." While Iceman can keep it cold, what happens when a Nuke gets dropped there? Yes, you heard me right, because the handy dandy Ultron duplicates can become one, just like so.

That's not going to work. At absolute zero all molecular motion ceases, so no heat energy remains in a substance. And even if you could drop a nuke Bobby would just freeze it, after all he was able to freeze an exploding nuclear reactor before:

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That's all for now. Your move!

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#22 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Phase 5 [Counterpoints}

Let's get down to business!

I can buy your argument for Hank Pym and maybe Lelouche but Ult. Reed is a whole different story. I didn't saw a convincing argument from your part about his Psy-proof Shield Suit, which was able to defend him from a technopath, being able to infect the intruder that was trying to hack his mind.

For to note this, I explained specifically that LeLouch will control him before hand. LeLouch is not psychic, he cannot read minds, nor does he have any resistance to psychic invasion, as shown when his father manipulated his memories. Therefore, you cannot call it a psychic invasion, when there is no way to prevent it at after his power was increased. It is an absolute command, it cannot be denied by any living being that can understand it. It also doesn't require any effort or telepathic push, no does his mind self enter another's, it just changes their way of thinking. It would make Reed subservient to Ultron, regardless of his will. And simply ask him to remove the psy proof shields.

That's great but the scan does not show how efficient is the device. It does show the guy trying to resist it, which gives me the idea that others could resist too. I'm sure it won't work against The Maker.

I can't find more scans to go with the thought remover, but he can enter minds himself, as shown here.

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In addition, he also possesses a form of hypnosis, which isn't a psychic assault, it is rather a method of manipuation.

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This shows that he should be able to outmatch Reeds mental defenses, due to the fact that he has much more solid and powerful feats than Rhona Burchill. Even if he could not, this is why Lelouch would have ordered him to obey Ultron. I understand that you don't want this partnership happening, but it will.

The fight against Kuurth only show us that he can achieve absolute zero. The fact it wasn't able to stop the character doesn't matter here since you don't have such power.

The issue is that there is no conclusive proof that Bobby actually reach Absolute Zero, just his statement. We don't even know how Juggernaut would react (though he would likely push through because magic). I would personally chalk this up to writer error, but I cannot prove it. However, Bobby only had the field in a very localized area, as only the air directly around Cain was frozen. This does not show that he's able to do this over thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, of cubic feet of air, meaning you have no feats supporting completely stopping an army, or a nuke, in this manner.

So far I've presented two instances about the absolute zero possibility, this one and the other when he states he can reach it on a good day. I'm sure that with Storm's weather control helping him he can reach it pretty easily.As for her being limited, I've already presented how Iceman can prevent his teammates from being affected by such power.

The first case said "On a good day, Within spitting distance" which is not Absolute Zero, and the other has no confirmation as it was used against someone who would be immune to such an attack anyways. So I would say that Iceman can nearly achieve Absolute Zero, he can't quite, as it is physically impossible.

Why is absolute zero (0 kelvin or −273.15°C) an impossible goal?

The work needed to remove heat from matter increases the colder you get, and an infinite amount of work would be needed to cool something to absolute zero. In quantum terms, you can blame Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which says the more precisely we know a particle's speed, the less we know about its position, and vice versa. If you know your atoms are inside your experiment, there must be some uncertainty in their momentum keeping them above absolute zero – unless your experiment is the size of the whole universe.

So unless Iceman is literally infinitely cold, he can't achieve AZ. On the point of the nuke, he stopped a reactor explosion. A reactor explosion doesn't even completely destroy the plant it's in, as seen during the Chernobyl explosion. A nuclear bomb has a much larger yield. So when he was unsure of his capability to stop the smaller blast, you're now having him attempting to block a much more powerful and forceful blast.

Nevertheless, this does not negate his threat, as if you reach -273.149 C it will still be flicking cold. So I will have to deal with him, as well as Storm. One interesting fact about Absolute Zero is that it cannot stop light or sound, as they form as particle waves, not molecules. Therefore, those nukes I dropped are going to blind and deafen Storm permanently, and the area will be irradiated, as the particle waves won't be stopped by Absolute Zero. This will kill her rather quickly, but if she survives, and is unblinded by some means, I have another way to deal with her, as well as Iceman.

Ultron is capable of performing a variety of mental and psychological assaults, however, the one I will use is one that he can perform without even moving.

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It will paralyze both of them, rendering them unable to move. Then he can crush their minds. (In this circumstance, Franklin Richards saved them) Scott will of course be unaffected, but it will dissipate the cold field. From here, the team can be depowered and destroyed.

So, I have a question for you.

How are you going to try to beat me?

Through this entire debate, you have been almost completely on the defensive, and the only member of your team to have done anything is Iceman. How will you defeat me? Surely, you don't expect Iceman to solo? I'm waiting for you to full throttle, bring it!

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#23 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: here comes da-BOOM!

Full Throttle: frozen to death!

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I'll just move on to the Iceman/Absolute Zero part considering you've convinced me about your teamwork ok?

Iceman: Absolute Zero!

The issue is that there is no conclusive proof that Bobby actually reach Absolute Zero, just his statement. We don't even know how Juggernaut would react (though he would likely push through because magic). I would personally chalk this up to writer error, but I cannot prove it. However, Bobby only had the field in a very localized area, as only the air directly around Cain was frozen. This does not show that he's able to do this over thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, of cubic feet of air, meaning you have no feats supporting completely stopping an army, or a nuke, in this manner.

Let me break down the issue.

  1. I've presented two instances about the absolute zero. First one we have bobby claiming he can reach it in a good day. Second instance we have the iceman actually stating he manage to reach it.
  2. In my strategy I've explained that Cyclops will use his vast psionic powers to boost the powers of his teammates, which is possible considering that in more than one occasion, Bobby had his powers upgraded, as already presented with feats and references at post n. 5
  3. I've also presented a feat were Iceman claims to be like a God given the omnipresence his power gives him, also considering that its his current version, so we can expect even more after the "awekening" (unlock full potential).
  4. Storm is constantly giving the right conditions through her weather manipulation for his powers to work on a greater scale.

You asked for feats about being able to stop an army or a nuke right? OKay.

"Stop an army"

Iceman vs Thor - if Bobby can sussccesfully neutralize Thor, I'm sure he can deal with an entire army.

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*Note how Bobby explains what's happening to Thor, and look at the God of Thunder's face of dispair.

Not to mention that the Iceman can create his own army of clones. They were strong enough to subdue the Rulk for example.

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"Stop a nuke"

I'm sure that's not going to be an issue for someone who was able to freeze hell over. Note there's on panel description and not just the character making claims. And that's what he will be doing here against your team, there's nowhere to go, there's no scape from the Iceman!

Here you can see him explaining how and why heat isn't a problem for him:

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Also, I'm sure your team won't even have time to drop anything considering Iceman exists everywhere, especially with Storm providing suitable climatic conditions for his powers to work even better with longer range and aptitude.

So basically, Iceman actually is omnipresent and capable of controlling multiple clones of himself at once, giving them their own personalities which makes them self-sufficient. These ice clones can maintain all of icemans abilities but not nearly on his own power scale. He actually exists in and can see from every molecule of water on earth simultaneously. He can make things like this effortlessly. He manage to cause the entire world to go into winter which means he can control the temperature on a global scale.

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Even in the remote possibility your team survive this, Cyclops is there to just blast your team away permanently.

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#24 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Have no fear, my post will be up before the end of the week.

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#26 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: thought you were ice-static after my frozen full throttle ;P

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#27 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: It's Hisoka, the main villain/challenge in the anime Hunter x Hunter. He's not particularly antagonistic or evil, just a murdering psychopath.

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#30 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: looks like an interesting character, is the anime worth watching?

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#31 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I like it, wish it was dubbed. The story is great though, it doesn't have the stereotypical anime harem, and there's only really 2 characters that the story always follows.

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#32 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm

Phase 6 [Penultimate Post]

I've presented two instances about the absolute zero. First one we have bobby claiming he can reach it in a good day. Second instance we have the iceman actually stating he manage to reach it.

You asked for feats about being able to stop an army or a nuke right? OKay.

"Stop an army"

Iceman vs Thor - if Bobby can sussccesfully neutralize Thor, I'm sure he can deal with an entire army.

You've misquoted me. I don't entirely doubt he can take them all, I do doubt however his ability when it comes to "completely stopping an army" as in, immediately freezing them solid. My point about Absolute Zero is that your scan shows him achieving it in an extremely localized area, just around Cain's helmet, which does not show he can do this in a large area. I'm questioning your capability to generate the same temperature over thousands of cubic feet of air, when the temperature is defined as impossible to reach in the first place.

In my strategy I've explained that Cyclops will use his vast psychic powers the powers of his teammates, considering that in more than one occasion, Bobby had his powers upgraded, as already presented with feats and references at post n. 5

Yes, you also completely ignored my question about whether Storm and Iceman would allow a Phoenix empowered Scott, when Storm was visibly fearful and wary of the Phoenix Force, to "amp" them, when they might put their own free will on the line.

I've also presented a feat were Iceman claims to be like a God given the omnipresence his power gives him, also considering that its his current version, so we can expect even more after the "awekening" (unlock full potential).

Which is why I'm questioning how you can deal with the "Little Promise" because you still haven't explained how you're getting around this depowerment, you've actually outright ignored it. The whole point is that it would depower Iceman's consciousness where it was, preventing his transfer. This ray outright removed the X gene from a Phoenix powered Franklin Richards, and at the base of it, Iceman is still a mutant. Im saying that when Ultron just activates the ray from the get go, he would be immune to any attack as the water molecules would stop being controlled the moment the ray touched them.

Storm is constantly given the right conditions through her weather manipulation for his powers to work on a greater scale.

Yes, but she's also been permanently blinded by a nuke, those conditions aren't going to last...

I'm sure that's not going to be an issue for someone who was able to freeze hellover. Note there's on panel description and not just the character making claims. And that's what he will be doing here against your team, there's nowhere to go, there's no scape from the Iceman!

Except Hell does not have a actual estimate of temperature, and it's obviously got water molecules to freeze, so it can't be as hot as a nuke, which is hot enough that water does not exist in the initial blast radius. You're also using the example of a fire. A nuke is hotter than the sun! Iceman has no showing against something this hot. Absolute Zero measures -273.15 K while a nuclear explosion is estimated at 10^7 K, if you even pretend the laws of thermodynamics are half real, Absolute Zero cannot exist in an area of such motion.

Even in the remote possibility your team survive this, Cyclops is there to just blast your team away permanently.

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Let's see how Scott does, when Ultron is quite literally as indestructible as Captain America's Shield.

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So it's indestructible, and while it does have a few weak spots, they haven't been revealed. Even so, Scott is not going to blow Ultron away, not in any way shape or form, unless you believe that Scott with 1/5th of the Phoenix Force is damaging the same guy than no sold this:

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And once again, isn't that image of Scott with 1/2 the Phoenix Force (as the other members had been defeated)? That's 2.5 the power he has here.

In addition to everything else, you still haven't addressed the Paralyzing Ray which I mentioned in my previous post, which would again, paralyze your team sans Scott.

Phase 7 [Conclusions]

  • You have yet to address or counter the fact that Storm will be in no shape to manipulate the weather, much less to fly, or walk, or have coherent thought for that matter.
  • You have yet to achieve a way to avoid depowerment, you've actually not mentioned it in any of your posts.
  • You have yet to address or counter the paralyzing effect Ultron can create, which was displayed in scans in the previous post.
  • If you understand the top, the next post will be my last, so I suggest you wrap up!
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#34 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: you went first and you each had four posts. We're opening it for votes.

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#37 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Well jac was expecting one more post from me so if he agrees can you allow me to post it ?

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#39 Posted by FirestormFate1919 (6194 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: @higorm: Ok, I'll start out by saying I'm on mobile and won't be back on my computer for a while, so I'm keeping this as short as possible (and forgive any typos). This was a great matchup, and definently the most even I've seen in a while. I also believe it was the most entertaining of the round (for me at least) because of how close it was. Ultimately I decided on calling my vote a stalemate. Your debating was strikingly similar and quite even, so I found no edge to either side there. Your teams also seemed amazingly even. Both of you did exceptionally well on defense, and quite well on offense. However, on both respective sides the defensive counters and defenses stood out and shone. In addition to this debating factor, both these teams have an impressive underlying advantage front he defensive perspective. I don't think Higor ever demonstrated a way to pierce or put down Ultron, given the impressive durability feats shown by Jac. I also don't think Jac ever found a way to bring down Iceman, or maybe even Cyclops. Higor showed Scott could tank the Nukes/Blasts, and Iceman could survive and thrive in those heats. Because of this both sides convinced me they wouldn't be going down to the other, and had even debating, resulting in an eventual stalemate.

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#40 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: I was hoping we could each get a conclusion up, then finish. It's your call though boss man, just feels weird to finish with a penultimate post.

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#41 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper:

Last Counters

Iceman's Full Throttle: frozen to death!

You've misquoted me. I don't entirely doubt he can take them all, I do doubt however his ability when it comes to "completely stopping an army" as in, immediately freezing them solid. My point about Absolute Zero is that your scan shows him achieving it in an extremely localized area, just around Cain's helmet, which does not show he can do this in a large area. I'm questioning your capability to generate the same temperature over thousands of cubic feet of air, when the temperature is defined as impossible to reach in the first place.

Okay, I see your point. The thing is, I don't possess feats of Bobby doing that, because they don't exist. But from my perspective it's not a unfounded assumption. Considering that I've presented feats for Iceman being able to reach absolute zero, feats where he controls the temperature on a global scale, feats where he states he exists everywhere, I'm sure we can assume that for this fight where he possess a boost in power level and Storm weather control giving moisture everywhere, I'm sure we can agree he will be able to reduce the temperature to the point that it will be pointless to have a army of 10, 100 or 1000 soldiers, they will not be able to move, even if we don't acknowledge it will be absolute zero, it will be enough to severely compromise their performance in battle.

If Bobby possess so many great feats alone, imagine with enhanced power levels from PF Cyclops and Storm weather control? That's my point here.

Yes, you also completely ignored my question about whether Storm and Iceman would allow a Phoenix empowered Scott, when Storm was visibly fearful and wary of the Phoenix Force, to "amp" them, when they might put their own free will on the line.

I don't see why they shouldn't. Storm was surprised with the amount of power her teammates were displaying. Imagine how it must be strange to see her closest friends turning into cosmic level beings all of a sudden. For me it was clear that she understood their point, she was afraid in the beginning but later her face clearly indicates she manage to perceive their true intent. As for Bobby:

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As you can see it's not a matter of put their free will at stake, it's about doing the right thing for a great cause, even if that means cross a line they normally wouldn't cross.

This ray outright removed the X gene from a Phoenix powered Franklin Richards, and at the base of it, Iceman is still a mutant. Im saying that when Ultron just activates the ray from the get go, he would be immune to any attack as the water molecules would stop being controlled the moment the ray touched them.

I'm sure PF Cyclops is faster than your best ray. There's not way he wouldn't be able to outright block it or protect his team from any harm. I'm also not convinced that your team will be able to do anything from the start considering my team pretty much controls the entire battlefield from the get go. How is your team attacking if they can't even move? By your own statement we can see that you recognizes my team will have the first move with Bobby freezing, since you said "water molecules stop being controlled" but the thing is that it won't stop. The moment your team step into the battlefield the entire map will be freezing.

Bobby can concentrate his powers towards your team while his clones take care of your army, considering they will be affected by the temperature. That way he can reach absolute zero in a especific area while the rest of the team deals with the army. Cyclops can help blasting them away, with Storm dropping some nasty lighting and sending hurricanes one after the other.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

When not holding back, Storm manage to create "the kind of primal storm that sculpted the face of the planet"

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Yes, but she's also been permanently blinded by a nuke, those conditions aren't going to last...

I doubt your team will ever have the chance to nuke anything, but even if they could, both Cyclops and Iceman can protect her, and she can just go out of reach with her powers. Bobby for example was able to protect Mystique in space with a force-field:

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Except Hell does not have a actual estimate of temperature, and it's obviously got water molecules to freeze, so it can't be as hot as a nuke, which is hot enough that water does not exist in the initial blast radius. You're also using the example of a fire. A nuke is hotter than the sun! Iceman has no showing against something this hot. Absolute Zero measures -273.15 K while a nuclear explosion is estimated at 10^7 K, if you even pretend the laws of thermodynamics are half real, Absolute Zero cannot exist in an area of such motion.

Real science doesn't apply to comics. You can't really assume how hot is hell, for for all intents and purposes it's the worst place for someone like Iceman to be. This particular feat is meant to show how much he can do with his powers even in a unfavorable environment. Once again you are assuming that your team will have enough time to blast nukes, they won't. My team is faster and possess ways to neutralize yours from the beginning. With Storm helping him, Iceman exists eveywhere with the right conditions to use the totality of his powers that were previously upgraded by Cyclops. I've presented more than enough evidence to prove how much power output and extent of powers Iceman can display.

So it's indestructible, and while it does have a few weak spots, they haven't been revealed. Even so, Scott is not going to blow Ultron away, not in any way shape or form, unless you believe that Scott with 1/5th of the Phoenix Force is damaging the same guy than no sold this:

And once again, isn't that image of Scott with 1/2 the Phoenix Force (as the other members had been defeated)? That's 2.5 the power he has here.

As said previously, Cyclops is there to finish the remaining threat, which at this point should be weakened. I say this because Iceman alone can deal with Ultron. Sure he's indestructible, but not for the inside. Once again my team will know this beforehand thanks to PF Cyclops infinity knowledge the Phoenix gives him. So Bobby can just freeze him from the inside, like he did before to a foe that had impervious skin.

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We have also seen what he's capable of doing when he faced Legion:

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In addition to everything else, you still haven't addressed the Paralyzing Ray which I mentioned in my previous post, which would again, paralyze your team sans Scott.

The only thing that will be paralyzed (frozen) is your entire team in this scenario, and I've also presented counters for your ray above.

Summarize

  1. My team is faster with both PF Cyclops cosmic powers and Iceman omnipresence.
  2. Storm weather control constantly provides the appropriate conditions for Bobby, constantly "feeding" him in battle.
  3. You haven't presented one single evidence to dispute the fact that iceman can just freeze your entire team, severely compromised from the start.
  4. Thanks to the Phoenix connection, Cyclops possess infinity knowledge, which means he is aware of Ultron's weakness which will be exploited in the fight as explained.
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#43 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm

[Phase 8] Final Post

I'm sure PF Cyclops is faster than your best ray.

You wouldn't even know to dodge it in the first place, it's just a ray. I mean, the entirety of the Phoenix Force failed/chose not to dodge Tony's ray, why would this be any different? Ultron can just blast it all day.

There's not way he wouldn't be able to outright block it or protect his team from any harm.

Why not? This "Little Promise" has already been shown to depower a fully empowered Phoenix. In what way is he stopping a ray that has been shown to outright depower someone hosting the same entity, and a greater portion of it to boot?

I'm also not convinced that your team will be able to do anything from the start considering my team pretty much controls the entire battlefield from the get go.

And mine doesn't? What happened to the microbots beaming out Little Promise or the phalanx polluting the air? For "the get go" you'll be fighting for control.

How is your team attacking if they can't even move?

The whole point is that Ultron, and all his robots can fire the Little Promise at will, what's stopping them

By your own statement we can see that you recognizes my team will have the first move with Bobby freezing, since you said "water molecules stop being controlled"but the thing is that it won't stop. The moment your team step into the battlefield the entire map will be freezing.

Correct, but is Iceman really going to freeze the entire chunk of atmosphere? I thought he was trying to protect people. Even more so, he can't directly freeze the army because of the ray they can emit, so he'd have to hit them one by one.

Bobby can concentrate his powers towards your team while his clones take care of your army, considering they will be affected by the temperature. That way he can reach absolute zero in a especific area while the rest of the team deals with the army. Cyclops can help blasting them away. Storm dropping some nasty lighting and sending hurricanes one after the other.

Yes, drop lightning into an area where the is no static buildup (which is necessary for lightning) because of the fricking cold ground temperature? Or hurricanes which only exist at warmer temperatures? Maybe a blizzard, but I've never seen Storm actively make a rainstorm in subzero temperatures. The way you've had your characters act, Storm can help Iceman, but she's not going to be able to help by bringing in strange weather phenomena, the environment is too cold for that. Let's also not forget the nuke, because last I checked, Storm was dying of radiation.

Real science doesn't apply to comics.

^^^ Everything wrong with comicvine. It does, you just have to apply them in context. I could just apply it like this. Bobby has not stopped the equivalent of a nuke, therefore, there is no evidence that he can stop a nuke.

You can't really assume how hot is hell, for for all intents and purposes it's the worst place for someone like Iceman to be.

I don't need to, I just know that Bobby needs water, and if there is water in Hell, it must be below 212 Fahrenheit. Marvel Hell particularly doesn't seem to actually physically burn.

This particular feat is meant to show how much he can do with his powers even in a unfavorable environment. Once again you are assuming that your team will have enough time to blast nukes, they won't.

My team is faster

Really? because the speed feats presented at this time are equivalent to 0. My team is wearing tech superior to an Iron Man armor, so that's above Mach 8. Ultron (through the Phalanx) has perceived Nova when the latter was traveling at superluminal speeds.

and possess ways to neutralize yours from the beginning.

I'd say a weapon that specifically neutralizes powers is just as good.

With Storm helping him, Iceman exists eveywhere with the right conditions to use the totality of his powers that were previously upgraded by Cyclops. I've presented more than enough evidence to prove how much power output and extent of powers Iceman can display.

Of course, but can he with the depowering rays?

As said previously, Cyclops is there to finish the remaining threat, which at this point should be weakened. I say this because Iceman alone can deal with Ultron. Sure he's indestructible, but not for the inside. Once again my team will know this beforehand thanks to PF Cyclops infinity knowledge the Phoenix gives him. So Bobby can just freeze him from the inside, like he did before to a foe that had impervious skin.

That foe is rather different though, for one, he's not capable of depowering Iceman like Ultron, he has a mouth, he can't function at subzero temperatures, and he doesn't have any form of mental manipulation. Now you're stating that he can bypass all of these?

You're also showing him freezing Legion, who despite all his power, has human durability. May I see a scan of Bobby performing a feat similar to a body made of metal?

My team is faster with both PF Cyclops cosmic powers and Iceman omnipresence.

Still no speed feats, omnipresence only travels at speed of thought (250ish MPH) my team can move at Mach 8

Storm weather control constantly provides the appropriate conditions for Bobby, constantly "feeding" him in battle.

And also can be easily destroyed, glass cannon much?

You haven't presented one single evidence to dispute the fact that iceman can just freeze your entire team, severely compromised from the start.

I stated that they could use the depower ray as a "shield" preventing Iceman from freezing them. You in turn have yet to address the paralyzing ray, which would prevent Iceman from even doing anything past being stunned.

Thanks to the Phoenix connection, Cyclops possess infinity knowledge, which means he is aware of Ultron's weakness which will be exploited in the fight as explained.

Thanks to complete access to Stark's database, Ultron knows everything about these X-Men. And the Phoenix has limited omniscience, Scott has to ask. If he has true omniscience, then he could very well solo both Silver Surfer and Captain Atom, putting him over the limits.

Even if it is possibly to achieve this, Ultron can predict it, and use the final resort, he shifts a piece of his consciousness to the Stark Tower, and enlarges and drops the anti matter bomb that Reed provided the specs for during prep. This bomb wiped out Washington DC entirely, destroying every piece of matter there was, so goodbye to everyone here, and Ultron's consciousness lives on.

[Phase 9] Conclusions

  • You still have no actual way to block the Little Promise
  • You still haven't addressed the paralyzing ray
  • You still have only provided one method of victory, I've presented three (Depowerment, Paralysis, Anti Matter Bomb)
  • You have no presented speed feats, just a statement of omnipresence

Oh, and regardless of who wins, wonderful match sir! Most fun I've had since I joined the vine!

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#44 Edited by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Agreed! This one was epic!! Thanks for such a great experience ;)

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#46 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @jacthripper: cool, I'll edit the title as soon as I get on my computer. Tag anyone you like.

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#47 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3037 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome debate, and a great job to both. I'm voting for @jacthripper

He had more strategy, a more convincing argument, and overall he would simply win the battle from what I saw.

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#48 Posted by Jacthripper (14445 posts) - - Show Bio
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