It's because it was spread out across several issues (and there are minor time jumps), but here's the entire interaction (it's Uncanny Avengers [2015] #28-29.)
He accidentally summoned Juggernaut while he was being transported to prison. The storyline doesn't make sense exactlybecause Juggernaut was literally smack in the middle of his own solo series, having a redemption arc, as this issue came out, but I guess the timelines are just messed up there, as in his most recent appearance (to my knowledge), Savage Avengers #26, he's free and working with the heroes.
Thanks for providing the context! However, it seems as though Scarlet Witch was involved with the spell as well. She says "I'm ready when you are, Jericho" and is shown casting alongside Voodoo. This makes it seem as though they worked together, or at least combined their magic, in order to accomplish this. Meaning Voodoo would not be able to replicate this spell on his own.
I don't understand the first argument. Him not knowing it would summon Juggernaut was due to that being his first time doing the spell, of course this battle would be set after that situation which means he would now know the full intended uses of that spell now that it has actually been cast.
As I just mentioned, he needed the help of Scarlet Witch in order to replicate this. Furthermore, one instance of him accidentally summoning Juggernaut is not enough to say he will do this in our battle. Why hasn't he done this at any other point?
In terms of your second question, he literally carried his brother Daniel Drumm within him and summoned him in every battle for a solid 50+ real life years of his comic history. The only reason I've not brought him up here is because, under the assumption we're using current versions, they've recently became separated.
So no matter what way it swings:
A) Juggernaut works with us because he's currently a hero and it would make sense due to his current allegiances.
or
B) We don't take into account current versions, which means Jericho can summon his body possessing brother Daniel, and Juggernaut gets possessed anyways.
Because it's his brother and they were bonded together, so it would make sense for him to use his brother in combat. That does not prove Voodoo would summon help from other sources, and you haven't provided enough feats for me to believe this is a standard tactic of his. Zatanna has summoned Swamp Thing, Phantom Stranger, John Constantine, and the Upside-Down Man. Does that mean she would summon them in a combat situation? No, not at all.
Overall, I really don't buy this strategy whatsoever. It seems super random and inconsistent for Voodoo to do, and he'd also have to force Juggernaut to fight for him, or convince him to do so in a battle that does not involve him. Lastly, there's the matter of him being able to replicate the spell without the help of Scarlet Witch.
Once again, the Decimus thing is a hail-mary backup plan. Even in the scenario that Juggernaut outrightly just REFUSES and tries to murder us, Jericho or Raven just BFR him and we waste our prep time. However, it won't come to that.
I really don't think it is...You keep mentioning it in every post, several times. It seems you are heavily relying on the Four Horsemen to win this fight, even more so than your own team lol.
But it's clear that she is in a relative meditative state in the scan where she's using divination, which does tell me that certain spells do require more than just "speaking." In a mass spell, like enchanting the entire battlefield, I don't think you can just assume that that'll happen so quickly along with the other aspects of your prep since the spell has never been seen performed.
As you said in your character section and show later as well, it's clear that "speak magic" isn't the only kind she uses, so it also isn't really a fact that she even used the magic you're implying she used to create this barrier. Unless you have scans that show her putting this up in the way you say she is, it really isn't something that can be proven for her to do in this short time frame.
There is no proof that her divination took longer than 10 minutes. It took place over 3 panels and a few spoken sentences between her and John. I would be generous to say that more than a minute had passed during that time.
Considering that the vast majority of her spells happen as soon as she is done speaking them, it is safe to say her enchantment spell won't take long to perform. You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, and the burden of proof is on you here.
Also, if Voodoo or Raven get BFR'd, they just port back. This would only even effect Apocalypse and the Horsemen.
The enchantment doesn't just BFR them, it also transmutes them into mollusks.
He's no doubt a top tier telepath, but literally every time someone has encountered Raven's mind she has utilized her soul self in defense. It makes sense she would do so here off pure instinct.
You claim that Raven's Soul Self would defend her if her mind is attacked, but you haven't proven that Raven or her Soul Self could fight off a telepath as powerful as Shadow King.
You said: "Her TP resistance isn't amazing, by any means, but she is extremely in tune with her mind due to her empathic abilities, if she even senses anyone trying to mentally ambush her, she will push back with her soul self."...
...while providing no evidence of this. All you showed was Raven fighting off a fodder psychic. How does that prove she can stop Shadow King from instantly knocking her out with a psychic attack?
It usually only affects hostiles, it did in the scans I presented earlier and also does below:
Sure, but you're claiming that a morals off Raven would cause large-scale destruction all around her. In the scan you posted, Raven is further away from the other Titans, which would explain why they were untouched by her Soul Self.
All of those statements are completely false.
This sequence of events happens between New Avengers (2010) Issues #1 through #6, and Agamotto is revealed as the villain in Issue #5. In Issue #1, before even stealing the Eye back, he was able to possess both Doctor Strange and Hellstrom. In Issue #2, he goes on to control Luke Cage and Iron Fist. In Issue #5, he does the aforementioned possession of the entire New Avengers.
His main goal throughout the storyline is to get the Eye of Agamotto back to retain his full power in order to take over the universe due the Vishanti not controlling the magical energies any longer, so the Eye was essentially an amp for him, not a part of his standard powerset and everything he did in this six issue run was without the eye amp.
I can't really provide scans against this argument in any way that makes sense as it's a pretty expansive storyline that is explained in bits and pieces throughout the six issue arc with a twist that makes it even more convoluted, but the most important issues to read for context of my arguments are issues 2, 5, and 6.
With all that being said, I still stand by the spell being able to free any of my team from mental imprisonment.
The scan I presented proving that Agamotto was not at full power comes from New Avengers issue 6. Voodoo says: "I know why you came for this. Because without the Vishanti in place, it is the only thing that could defeat you. If the Vishanti have cast you out, most of your power have been stripped from you."
In the first issue, we never actually see Hellstrom or Strange get possessed by Agamotto. We see Hellstrom being possessed, and the next time we see Strange, he is possessed as well. It happened off-panel, so we don't know how it happened, if prep was involved, etc. There are too many unknown variables here.
Not only that, but magical possession is not the same as telepathy. It might work with Deadman, but it won't work with Shadow King. And that's assuming Voodoo isn't too busy fighting and defending himself to free his controlled teammates mid-battle.
If his body gets taken, he moves into astral form, takes over someone else, and frees himself.
That's assuming Shadow King tries to control Voodoo instead of just taking him out with a psychic attack.
None of this protects from the Horsemen's ailments, which is her primary issue.
It's auditory, so it affects people who hear them. Even if they don't hear initially, when they get within a fighting range, they will be affected.
There is no proof that the Horsemen's powers can work through force fields, or if Zatanna is out of sight from them.
Removing their soul from their body and indefinitely trapping it would certainly result in death for their physical bodies, which would likely count as death as there's no real way for either of our teams to kill each other's souls. It'd just end up being an astral ghost party since permanent BFR isn't a thing and I'd assume soul banishment counts as BFR. I'll ask host for clarification on the win conditions, however.
The host clarified this by saying:
"Yea death, KO, soul-destruction, and indefinite incapacitation are all win-conditions.
Banishment is a bit more iffy, since it's kind of in line with BFR. As long as you're not using it to cheese/avoid an actual battle, as in "I send you to another dimension and leave you there, GG) I think it's fine. Like, if you've clearly won the fight and your opponent can't really do anything other than be "technically not dead yet", then I think banishment is fine to finish them off."
Regardless, Shadow King doesn't even have a soul. He is going to be much, much harder to down. I could see Voodoo trapping Deadman or something, but given what you are claiming Voodoo will do, he will be stretched way too thin during the battle. Would he put himself at risk in order to take the time to free Apocalypse or the Horsemen? Probably not.
He is stronger no doubt, but that doesn't mean she can't TK restrain him while he's weakened by ailments.
You haven't shown Raven being able to telekinetically restrain someone as powerful as DSS, who can also teleport, attack with energy blasts from his body, manipulate matter, etc.
I don't see how that matters, by that same logic many of Zatanna's feats would be void if they're just assumed to not be able to work on people above a certain power level.
Using chronokinesis on a regular human does NOT mean he can do it against anyone. Sentry is much faster than a regular human, so his perceptions would have to be slowed a lot more for it to have a significant effect.
Zatanna has used chronokinesis to freeze time, but she has only done it against regular humans. That isn't the same as what Voodoo has done.
None of these disprove anything I said.
The only one that comes close is the Spider-Woman scan, and that could be more attributed to his durability rather than his regen.
The second scan actually actively proves my point as well, he was being affected from the machine until it stopped.
I still stand by him being weakened by these ailments at least to a level to where his performance is weakened, as you still have not shown him having IMMUNITY to these or related abilities, you've just shown him being able to recover from them.
This is a NLF argument. Just because the Horsemen's ailments worked on Wolverine and Deadpool does NOT mean it can work on everyone. Especially someone like DSS, who has a much better healing factor, can resurrect himself, and has absolute control over his molecular structure. And who: can no-sell attacks that affect the nervous system, survive having his chemical structure altered, cannot be bonded by a Symbiote, ignore Rogue's life-draining powers, and has no need to eat/drink/sleep/breathe.
Most of the things you've shown prove that he actively gets affected by these abilities and his regen helps with the healing process, but he still can and will be affected by them.
Nothing I have presented proves this though?? As if someone who can survive being destroyed on a molecular level, regenerate while within the Sun, and resurrect himself after being blown up, among everything else I presented, is going to be bothered by cancer or the Black Plague lol. Even Psylocke, who has no healing factor, was surviving these ailments and still capable of using her telepathy. A bit of a reach for you here...
Went over the Voodoo stuff earlier, but in regards to BFR, there is no real reasonable reason why he wouldn't be able to be teleported. The astral plane exists in tandem with reality, it's not a seperate form of existence, it's all a matter of being able to control/manipulate things in the Astral Plane which both Raven and Voodoo have been shown to be able to do throughout this match.
Exactly. The Astral Plane is an alternate dimension that co-exists with the physical plane. SK's mind exists on the Astral Plane, and he exists across all realities. The Astral Plane has been referred to as the Shadow King's realm. Nothing you presented proves that either Voodoo or Raven could manipulate the Astral Plane in order to banish or BFR the Shadow King.
She was literally about to destroy his soul, so I think the logic tracks.
And how is attempting to rip out a human's soul equivalent to destroying Deadman's soul? Keeping in mind that he isn't human.
base Agamotto being able to possess Doctor Strange, Hellstrom, Captain Marvel, several other heroes, and Voodoo being able to clear them should honestly kill any Shadow King or Deadman argument. Even if they guess and go for Voodoo first, he just astral projects out as he did when he was possessed before and removes the possession from his body.
Not really. You keep equating magical possession to telepathy, which is completely wrong. They are not the same thing. Not all magic-users can utilize telepathy the same way that telepaths can. Dr Strange can't replicate everything Shadow King can do with telepathy. How is Voodoo's spell going to work when Shadow King can just attack their minds with a psychic bolt and KO them right off the bat? He has done this against Psylocke, and against Xavier on several occasions. There is no mind control or possession to clear.
Zatanna really wouldn't be able to last long in this fight, she gets physically dominated by half my team and murdered by misc. magical attacks by the other half.
A huge underestimation of Zatanna. No one on your team is a physical threat to Zatanna, and her magic is more than enough to fight off Voodoo or Raven, and even good enough to harm them.
Sentry is a completely powerhouse character, but he doesn't have any true solid counter to time manipulation/soul manipulation/empathic manipulation and honestly, his regen is not as good as you've hyped it up to be. It's strong against actual physical and energy attacks, but it's resistance to magical and hax attacks are fairly non-existent.
From the hax you have mentioned, the only one I can see working on him is soul manipulation. For everything else, I'm not convinced your team has the means to stop him, based on what you have shown.
Despite being a powerhouse, I have proven that he has a bunch of other powers that can work on your team. No one on your team has the durability to survive even a single strike from DSS. Furthermore, SK can help protect his mind, while Zatanna can help magically protect him.
As soon as Zatanna/Sentry come into range, they get weakened by Jebailments and taken out by Decimus, Apocalypse and Juggernaut.
Only Zatanna would be affected by their ailments, and maybe not even then if she has a force field up. The Horsemen are not a major factor in this fight, and all of them would get one-shotted by anyone on my team.
Shadow King and Deadman get BFR'd until we find a way to deal with them.
Brother Voodoo traps their souls indefinitely to cause their physical forms to die, or resort to soul removal if not viable win condition.
Deadman could get BFR'd, but I'm not convinced about Shadow King. Even so, if Voodoo focuses on them, it would leave him open to attack from Zatanna or DSS.
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