High Tier Halloween PYP RD1: Geekryan vs Younjustice (Open for Votes)

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Zetsu-San

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#1  Edited By Zetsu-San
No Caption Provided

Champion

  • Death Seed Sentry

Teammates

  • Zatanna
  • Deadman
  • Shadow King

Perks

  • Perfect Teamwork (5)
  • Extra Teammate (4)
  • 10 Minutes of Prep on Battlefield (1)

@geekryan

VS

@youngjustice

Characters:

  • Doctor Voodoo
  • Raven
  • Apocalypse

Perks:

  • Final Horsemen
  • Morals Off
  • 10 Minutes of Prep
No Caption Provided

Map:

No Caption Provided

Characters start randomly and out of sight in the woods above. The battlefield consists of a populated Earth-like planet, and extends to the moon.

Mood Setter:

Rules:

  • Cannot BFR longer than 10 minutes
  • Victory by Death or KO
  • Supernatural Energies
  • All Are In Character But Aware They Are In A Tournament
  • All characters have basic knowledge on allies and full-knowledge if perfect teamwork is taken.
  • DC are post crisis and forward, unless otherwise stated
  • No (Earth-sized) Planet Busting
  • link to the Signups Thread
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Zetsu-San

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geekryan

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@young_justice Awesome. I'm excited for this. Would you mind going first?

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ProfessorRespect

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Tag for posts pls

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geekryan

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Zetsu-San

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@geekryan: You're a decent distance apart and out of sight from each other in the woods. Lets just say the woods spans a square mile or so. Don't overthink it. lol

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geekryan

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@geekryan: You're a decent distance apart and out of sight from each other in the woods. Lets just say the woods spans a square mile or so. Don't overthink it. lol

It's somewhat important ;)

But thanks!

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YoungJustice

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@geekryan said:

@young_justice Awesome. I'm excited for this. Would you mind going first?

Sure! I have to gather a few more feats for one of my characters but it shouldn't take too long, should be up within the next 24-48 hours.

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geekryan

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@geekryan said:

@young_justice Awesome. I'm excited for this. Would you mind going first?

Sure! I have to gather a few more feats for one of my characters but it shouldn't take too long, should be up within the next 24-48 hours.

Sounds good!

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deactivated-63abc1f72d85e

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TAEP

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YoungJustice

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@zetsu-san: Quick question, can we assume summons will work with our team? Like if we summoned, let's say, a bloodthirsty tiger, would it only attack the other team?

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Zetsu-San

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#15  Edited By Zetsu-San

@youngjustice: If your character can’t control what they summon, then that’s not going to change now. At least not without a good reason.

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YoungJustice

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@youngjustice: If your character can’t control what they summon, then that’s not going to change now. At least not without a good reason.

Understood, thanks for clearing that up for me. Post will be coming within the day.

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YoungJustice

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Won't lie, this matchup scares me. Still going to give it my all though!

Opener: Mystics and Mutants

Theme:

Loading Video...

As always, let's start off with some character introductions!

Doctor Voodoo - The Houngan Supreme

I'll begin with my champion, Doctor Voodoo (who I'll likely be referring to as his name, Jericho, for a majority of the debate.)

Jericho Drumm was the younger brother of Daniel Drumm, the original Brother Voodoo. After his brothers death, he gained his abilities and became the most adept Voodoo user in Marvel history. Over time, his abilities became more and more vast, enough so to where he earned the title of Sorcerer Supreme. Jericho is a versatile magic user who will be the core member of my team.

Due to him being so versatile, let's just go through some of his most notable, general magical abilities that don't rely on difficult spells or incantations. Some of the more pertinent info will be bolded and underlined.

  • In scans 1-2, he demonstrates his force-field usage against Doctor Doom.
  • In the third scan, he displays his soul manipulation, being able to command them to attack Nightmare.
  • In the fourth scan, after Nightmare takes control of the souls himself, Jericho conjures "Shield of Seraphim" for defense.
  • In the fifth and sixth scans, while in a morals off state he's able to kill both Man Thing and Dracula with his staff.
  • In the seventh and eight scans, Jericho transmutes a living plant creature into a flower.
  • In the ninth and tenth scans, Jericho rescues Quicksilver from an otherworldly dimension by commanding the demons to stop attacking.
  • In the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth scans, Jericho summons the souls of the prior Black Knight's to attack Dane Whitman.
  • In the fourteenth scan, he shows his ability to astral project.
  • In the fifteenth scan, the grand sorcerer Merlin commends Jericho for being able to touch the Ebony Blade and absorb it's knowledge without harm.
  • In the sixteenth scan, he casts a spell on Voyager to stop her from fleeing.
  • In the seventeenth scan and eighteenth scans, he stabilizes Wonder Man after he takes a devastating attack.
  • In the eighteenth scan, he is able to block a direct magic attack from Blackheart. Although he is subsequently taken out in scan nineteen.
  • In scans twenty through twenty-three, he commands more spirits. These spirits were shown to be strong enough to pin down Blackheart long enough for Voodoo's reinforcements to arrive.
  • In the last scan, his "Winds of Watoomb" spell is strong enough to stop projectiles.

I hope this is enough to provide everyone with a generally good idea of what he is capable of. He is a man of many talents, and some more will be discussed in the prep section.

Next up, let's discuss everyone's favorite witch...

Raven - Daughter of Darkness

Raven is a character that is powerful, but also has a lot of varying power levels that can sometimes make her confusing to understand fundamentally. Due to this, I'm going to break down her powers in categories and avoid using any outlier content, this base Raven who is still a very strong character.

Empathy/Telepathy

One of Raven's most well known capabilities is her empathic powers, these allow her to sense, manipulate, and sometimes completely control the emotions and feelings of others. This powerset is often confused/roped in with her telepathy, so we'll discuss both here to make it easier to break down.

She is debatably the most consistent empath in comic history, as you'll see below.

scan four is an accidental entry, please disregard.
  • In the first scan, she erases the memory of two hospital nurses.
  • In the second scan, she forces her friend to sleep.
  • In scan three, she alters the memory of an attacker.
  • In scan five, she is shows the ability to track her enemy with her empathic powers.
  • In scan six, she manipulates a guard to not worry about her.
  • In scan seven, she brain wipes her enemy, reading their memories during the process.
  • In the eight scan, she locates Manchester Black (a highly regarded telepath) due to his personality.
  • In scan nine, she puts a large beast to sleep.
  • In scans ten and eleven, she detects a sniper in another building and catches them before they attack her.
  • In scan twelve, she's attempts to sleep their opponent but is unable to due to their mental state.
  • In the final scan, she is able to grab the location of their attacker with an arrow.

In addition to her empathy/telepathy, she has a few other notable abilities that are somewhat related, such as:

Soul Self, Healing, and Telekinetic Ability

Raven's Soul Self is probably her most visually defining trait, it is essentially an amped astral projection. She is able to utilize her soul self to attack, absorb, teleport, and BFR.

She also has pretty adept healing properties. The general idea is that Raven is always in anguish and pain due to her background, so she is able to absorb that pain and not be affected by it.

Her telekinetic ability is not only for offensive measures, she uses it for defense shields and trap bubbles as well.

Overall, Raven is a very powerful magic user with abilities that should be a huge hinderance to your team due to her BFR and Soul attacks.

Apocalypse - The Techno-Organic Powerhouse

Apocalypse is a Celestial empowered mutant with a slew of abilities, however, his primary ability is molecular manipulation. He uses this for offensive and defensive purposes.

Molecular Manipulation

  • In the first scan, we see Apocalypse utilizing his molecular manipulation to make Cyclops' eye beams go straight through him.
  • In the second scan, he embiggens himself to make himself leap over the X-Men's attacks.
  • In the third scan, he adjusts his limbs to catch Beast and throw him.
  • In the fourth scan, he is able to turn his body into a shield to deflect Archangel's projectiles.
  • In the fifth scan, he turns his arms into wings.
  • In the sixth scan, he increases his size exponentially.
  • In the seventh and eight scans, he is able to strangle the Hulk fairly easily.
  • In the ninth scan, he makes his hand into a blade to decapitate Dracula.
  • In the tenth scan, he adjusts his molecules to stop Shadowcat from phasing into him.
  • In the eleventh scan, he once again dodges a projectile by manipulating his body.
  • In the final scan, he dodges attacks again and shows the ability to turn his hand into a putty like consistency, covering a mans face.

Apocalypse has several other abilities, but the molecular manipulation is his primary use here.

The Final Horsemen

And lastly, we can't have Apocalypse without his legendary Horsemen! This set of Horsemen wasn't long lived, but in their short stint, they were extremely capable. They will be able to debilitate your team to an extreme extent.

The first Horseman I'll highlight is admittedly the most basic, Ichisumi. She has the ability to control bees that emanate from her mouth.

  • In scan one, she sends a swarm of bees at her opponent, relatively surrounding them.
  • In scan two, she "kills" Wolverine by having the bees eat him alive. This however was confirmed to be an illusion created by Fantomex in the next page, however, I still think it shows her offensive capability.

The second Horsemen is also basic, but effective! Decimus Furius, aka War is a mutant with the ability to corrupt his opponents to fight for him.

He has been able to corrupt both Wolverine and Deathlok to fight for him fairly easily. Decimus has also shown a "reversal" effect on telepaths who attack him. When he was mentally attacked by Psylocke, she was simultaneously effected by his corruption.

The psychic attack seemingly had no effect and the only way he was able to be taken down was Fantomex manipulating him to make him feel "love" (his only weakness), which caused him to overload and explode.

Decimus isn't too complicated, but his corruption could prove useful for my team.

The third Horseman is a bit odd, but in a good way. Jeb Lee is a mutant with the ability generate bio-auditory cancer, which essentially means anyone that can hear him gets fast acting cancer.

This ability was strong enough to counteract Deadpool's and Archangel's healing factor's to debilitate them.

The only way anyone has been able to resist Jeb's cancer is by literally deafening themselves, as shown

below.

Jeb isn't complicated, but he's obviously very effective.

Now, onto our last member, Sanjar Javeed. Javeed is definitely the strongest Horseman here. His mutant ability allows him to inflict intense diseases on his victims depending on the metal he touches. Javeed wears metal rings that give him instant access to his ability, typically allowing him to take down extremely powerful opponents without any difficulty.

Above, he takes Psylocke, Fantomex, and Wolverine down without any issue by bombarding them with illnesses. The only person who has ever resisted his abilities was Deathlok, who was immune due to him not being alive.

Javeed is a perfect support character for my team.

Prep

I don't have that much prep time, but I'm going to attempt to make the most out of it.

Doctor Voodoo has a variety of spells, but the one we'll be utilizing during our prep will summon the servants of Cyttorak to assist us during the fight.

These are adorable little minions that are endowed with the strength of a being such as Juggernaut. You know what, speaking of...

No Caption Provided

This spell also summons the mighty Juggernaut to our side! Well, not automatically. We have just about ten minutes to convince him to work with us, let me explain how I'll do so.

  • He works with us completely willingly.

This is the ideal scenario. Juggernaut for the past decade has leaned pretty heavily into the anti-hero role, being a pretty consistent Savage Avenger as of recently.

He was willing to work with Magik (who banished him to limbo fairly recently) for a few gems. If we promise him a reward, he should be willing to battle with us given his current moral status.

  • Decimus uses his corruption on Juggernaut.

As shown in Decimus' character section, his corruption is extremely potent. This ability has never been too explicit about how it works, but it's listed as "empathic war infection" on the marvel wikia, which makes me feel like it could still infect Juggernaut since it's not inherently telepathic.

After gaining Juggernaut and the minions as allies, we head into battle!

Battle

One of the very first things that will happen from my team is Javeed and Jeb infecting your team with illnesses (as shown in his character section.) From what I know of them, none of them besides Deadman will be able to resist this effect, given that these ailments have almost killed beings with some of the strongest and notorious healing factors in comics, Deadpool and Wolverine. That means Zatanna, Sentry, and Shadow King are instantly infected with cancer that eats them alive and riddled with an influx of diseases that affect sight, destroy healing factors, starts dementia, and causes seizures. Juggernaut can take out any of them that survive the initial ailment attack quite easily due to their weakened state.

To deal with Deadman, Apocalypse can easily counter his intangibility as seen earlier in scan ten of his character section. Additionally, Jericho is fairly adept at dealing with demons, he'll be able to detect Deadman's supernatural energy automatically.

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Knowing of his supernatural abilities, I see no reason why Jericho can't just take control him as he did several other types of demons in his character section, and Man-Thing. From that point, Raven puts him to sleep (as shown in her character section) or Apocalypse psychically assaults him, leading to a K.O.

Conclusion

While you definitely have some complete heavy hitters on your team, the Horsemen (particularly Javeed and Jeb) will provide problems that don't really have valid counters without the time or knowledge to prepare against them. My main team really is just here to deal with Deadman and I think they're knowledge of mysticism will aid greatly in doing so.

Very excited to see your opener and counters!

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@youngjustice: Nice opener! Mine will be up by the end of the weekend

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Post #1 - Opener

Death Seed Sentry

No Caption Provided

Sentry is a physical powerhouse with a bunch of other powers like molecular manipulation, superhuman senses, shapeshifting, telepathy, teleportation, energy manipulation, etc. To make things even more complex, there are different versions of Sentry: Base Sentry, Void Sentry and Death Seed Sentry.

Basically, Death Seed Sentry is Sentry with a Celestial Death Seed implanted in him. DSS is also the most powerful version, so any feats that Void Sentry or Base Sentry have also apply to DSS.

Even though there is so much to cover for him, and he is the champion of my team, I'm going to keep this short for now. I will gladly expand upon his powers and abilities in my next post, if need be.

Strength

His raw strength is above the likes of Hulk, Thor, She-Hulk, Thing, Namor, Captain Marvel, etc.

1) Base Sentry casually catches Terrax's hand while he is mid-swing. Terrax is a Herald of Galactus and only slightly weaker than Silver Surfer.

2) Base Sentry catches an angry Hulk's punch

3) Base Sentry hurts World War Hulk with a punch and sends him flying through several buildings

4) Base Sentry sends Thing flying with a casual backhand

5) DSS chokes Thor out and sends him flying with a punch that is described to have been felt across the planet

Durability

1) Unfazed from being right next to the Sun

2) Takes a lightning-amped Mjolnir strike from Thor

3) No-sells a punch from Thing

4) Takes several punches from World War Hulk

5) Resists Dr Doom's magical blasts, which were overcoming Iron Man's defences

All of these feats are Base Sentry by the way.

Speed

1) Base Sentry casually catches a point-blank bullet shot from a few meters away

2) Base Sentry easily dodges a cosmic blast from Terrax

3) DSS blitzes Thor at FTL speeds

4) DSS reacts to Thor throwing Mjolnir at him

5) Base Sentry operates within milliseconds

Regeneration

1-2) Resurrects himself within seconds after being killed by a surprise attack from Morgan le Fay

3-4) Rebuilds himself after being destroyed on a molecular level

5) Regenerates while in the middle of the Sun

Misc.

1-2) The Void destroys Loki on a molecular level

3) Blocks a cosmic blast from Terrax with a small force field

4) One-shots Dr Doom

5) A light blast from Void Sentry sends Captain Marvel and Thor flying away

6) Void Sentry kills Nova

7) Overpowered an amped Dr Strange and Loki

8) DSS downs Thor with his eye beams

That's it for now, but there is A LOT more that I can bring up ;)

Zatanna

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Zatanna is considered one of DC's most powerful magic-users. Her magic is practically limitless; pretty much anything she can say backwards will happen. She has very few limitations, speed and plot being the main two. Her speed is quite human, as are her physicals. Due to PIS, she is often limited in what she can do. The good thing about a tournament/CaV is that no PIS is involved ;)

Although she often casts her spells by speaking backwards, this is not something she has to do. On many occasions, she has cast spells without speaking at all. She mostly just speaks backwards as a tribute to her father.

Zatanna has bested very powerful opponents such as Zor...Zor is an extremely powerful universal reality-warper who has once beaten The Spectre.

Zatanna was also instrumental in the defeat of Circe. Circe is an immortal goddess and considered to be THE most powerful sorceress of the DC universe. She regularly beats Wonder Woman and is on a similar power level as Ares.

She is so powerful that she can turn off gravity, turn night into day, and turn rain into flowers:

No Caption Provided

Zatanna has also awakened the universe and manipulated space & time to command the Seven Soldiers to attack.

She also stabilized a hole in space & time.

She raised Metropolis from ruin:

One of her greatest feats was escaping Nanda Parbat, a mystical place that was threatening to tear reality apart:

These feats aren't combat-applicable, but it's just to show how truly powerful Zatanna is with her magic. Now for some combat-applicable stuff. Zatanna has MANY options available to her in combat:

1) Explodes an opponent

2) Puts someone to sleep

3) Stops Despero

4) Overrides Circe's magic and splits apart her construct

She has been able to contend against Amazo, while he had the powers of the Justice League:

Here is my New-52/Rebirth RT for Zatanna: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/zatanna/4005-5691/forums/zatanna-respect-thread-new-52rebirth-2091281/

Deadman

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Deadman is a ghost and a recurring member of the Justice League Dark. His abilities include possession, intangibility, invisibility, and flight.

Intangibility

Due to the fact that he is a ghost, Deadman's body is incorporeal and he can therefore phase through things. He is also passively invisible, and only those with mystical/supernatural senses can see him. However, he can turn off the intangibility and invisibility at will. Here are some feats of his intangibility/phasing:

And even if his ghost form is destroyed via magic, he can just reform himself. His ghost form is durable enough to take a blast from an amped Felix Faust:

No Caption Provided

Two issues later, the amped Felix Faust was shown to be able to briefly contend against Zatanna, so his magic is quite powerful.

Possession

Deadman's main ability is possession. When possessing someone, he has access to all of their powers, skills, memories, etc. His ability to possess someone has rarely failed, and on the few occasions that it has, it was due to PIS or extreme willpower.

1) An evil version of Deadman was capable of possessing Superman, who is known for his incredible willpower.

2-4) Possesses Blackbriar Thorn

5) Briefly possesses John Constantine, who is also known for his insane willpower and magical defences

6) Possesses Swamp Thing

7-9) Possesses an aspect of Enchantress and rips her apart from within

Shadow King

No Caption Provided

The Shadow King is an immortal, multiversal entity and one of the most powerful telepaths in the Marvel universe. Although he normally takes control of a host body in order to interact with the physical world, he can exist without a host body, in astral form. In this astral form, he cannot interact with the physical world, but he can only be affected by psychic attacks.

Telepathy

1) Takes Legion as his host and uses his telekinesis to bind all the X-Men in place. Legion is a powerful psychic and a universal reality-warper

2) Legion, while psychically-amped by Cerebro, gets owned by Shadow King

3) Controls Legion and a group of others while undetected

4) Holds the upper hand in a psychic battle over Psylocke

5) Takes control of Rachel Grey, Psylocke, and a few other X-Men

6) Psychically attacks Professor X

7) While in another dimension, controls Emma Frost, Mastermind, and Selene

8) KOs Xavier with a psychic assault

Prep

Ten minutes of prep isn't a lot of time, but it's enough, especially considering my team has perfect teamwork (meaning they also have full knowledge of each other).

Zatanna will be doing the bulk of the prep, but Shadow King will begin by telepathically linking the minds of the team in order to facilitate communication and coordination.

One of Zatanna's more uncommon powers: divination. She can meditate or use a special deck of Tarot cards to see into the future. This divination isn't too specific and isn't as powerful as what someone like Madame Xanadu can foresee, but it is simple enough to give her concepts of what will happen and who might be involved.

In this example, she foresees the Trinity War. She sees someone dying, Constantine arguing with Batman/Superman, superheroes fighting each other, and Constantine shaking hands with Lex Luthor. All of this ends up coming true. Now I'm not saying that she will be able to see specific parts about the upcoming battle, but she will be at least able to have a general idea of what will happen. This will allow my team to better prepare for the fight. Furthermore, Zatanna/Deadman will know of Raven, while Sentry/Shadow King will know of Doctor Voodoo and Apocalypse, so my team will know who they are up against.

Next, Zatanna's magic will be used to make our team magically invisible, and create a decoy illusion of them as Zatanna does in this scan. These decoy illusions won't be a physical threat (they cannot cause any physical harm and disappear upon being attacked), but they will distract your team. Here is a second scan of Zatanna using invisibility.

Lastly, Zatanna will then enchant the area around us, putting up protective enchantments as she did with her mansion. As stated by the Nightmare Imp, the enchantments aren't just on the mansion itself, but extend to the area beyond the fence, meaning it can affect an area and not just the building. Those who cross into the enchanted area are teleported hundreds of miles away and transformed into a mollusk for an hour. Realistically, she could cover as much area as she wants with this spell, but to avoid any arguments about size, I would say her enchantment could at least cover the area of land her mansion is on, which is quite large, at least 500 square feet (the size of an average mansion). So, if anyone on your team enters the area, they will be teleported far away and transmuted, unless they have strong enough magic resistances to withstand Zatanna's level of magic.

Deadman can also split his form into an army of "Deadmen", each of which can possess others:

Strategy

As the battle begins, Shadow King will use his telepathy to reach out across the woods and determine the location of your team. Once that happens, he will attempt to psychically attack your team's minds or take control of them. This is guaranteed to drop the Horsemen, and pressure the rest of your team.

At the same time:

  • Deadman will attempt to possess Apocalypse (since Doctor Voodoo and Raven would have better chances at fighting off his possession), turning one of your teammates into our ally.
  • Zatanna will begin to attack your team with various spells, focusing mainly on Raven and Doctor Voodoo.
  • Sentry will bullrush towards your team and take out anyone in his way with his superhuman strength. His strength is good enough to one-shot anyone on your team.

All of that will be happening at once, right off the bat, before your team can even see my team. This assault will also be done with perfect coordination and synergy.

Essentially, it becomes a battle of DSS + Zatanna + Shadow King + Apocalypse being controlled by Deadman versus Doctor Voodoo + Raven + The Final Horsemen.

If your team somehow manages to fight off the initial assault, my team can retreat to Zatanna's enchanted zone for added protection.

The only way to deal with Shadow King is through psychic means, which no one on your team has in enough strength to overcome him. Deadman can only be harmed via magical means, since he is intangible to any physical attacks. Sentry's ridiculous durability and regeneration means he will be very tough to put down. Zatanna is the glass cannon, but she can still rely on force fields, teleportation, etc. to avoid getting harmed.

Counters

Doctor Voodoo

As versatile as he is, Zatanna can replicate about 90% of what you have presented for Doctor Voodoo, with the 10% mainly being the soul manipulation stuff. This doesn't bode well for you, considering Doctor Voodoo is your champion and is therefore supposed to be the biggest threat on your team...

I don't have anything specific to say about the feats you presented, but I'm fairly certain that Zatanna alone could contend against him, if not outright beat him.

Raven

In terms of her empathy/telepathy, she is seriously outclassed by Shadow King. Even Zatanna can replicate some of her telepathy-based feats.

Her Soul Self and soul-related abilities are definitely the most intimidating things about Raven, but once again, Zatanna can contend against her for the most part.

Apocalypse

Apocalypse is the least threatening member of your team, with the exception of the Horsemen. Although his molecular manipulation is decent, anyone on my team could take care of him pretty easily. He is physically no match for DSS; Shadow King's telepathy is more than enough to overcome Apocalypse's psychic defences; Deadman can possess him; and Zatanna's magic is an excellent counter to his abilities.

Horsemen

When these Horsemen went up against X-Force (which at the time consisted of Psylocke, Deadpool, Archangel, Wolverine, and Fantomex), they didn't fare very well for the most part... This is a team of street-level X-Men who were able to contend against the Final Horsemen. How do you think they will compare to a team consisting of DSS, Zatanna, Shadow King, and Deadman?

Shadow King could mind control all of them right off the bat and turn them against your team. Deadman can possess them. DSS can one-shot them. Zatanna can stomp them in a multitude of ways.

Ichisumi and her bees are the most useless. Decimus Furius doesn't have the feats to corrupt anyone on my team. Jeb Lee and Sanjar Javeed can realistically only affect Zatanna since Shadow King and Deadman aren't alive and Sentry's durability and regeneration are way too high.

Prep/Battle

Doctor Voodoo has a variety of spells, but the one we'll be utilizing during our prep will summon the servants of Cyttorak to assist us during the fight.

These are adorable little minions that are endowed with the strength of a being such as Juggernaut. You know what, speaking of...

This spell also summons the mighty Juggernaut to our side! Well, not automatically. We have just about ten minutes to convince him to work with us, let me explain how I'll do so.

Summoning some servants/fodder of Cyttorak makes sense, but why would Doctor Voodoo summon Juggernaut? AFAIK, this is the one and only time Doctor Voodoo has done this, and I don't believe he regularly summons non-fodder characters to aid him in battle... It seems odd for him to do this.

He works with us completely willingly.

This is the ideal scenario. Juggernaut for the past decade has leaned pretty heavily into the anti-hero role, being a pretty consistent Savage Avenger as of recently.

He was willing to work with Magik (who banished him to limbo fairly recently) for a few gems. If we promise him a reward, he should be willing to battle with us given his current moral status.

I'm not entirely convinced that Juggernaut would willingly work with someone who summoned him against his will and put his life at risk in a battle that holds no value to him. I'm also not convinced that Juggernaut would work alongside Apocalypse.

Decimus uses his corruption on Juggernaut.

As shown in Decimus' character section, his corruption is extremely potent. This ability has never been too explicit about how it works, but it's listed as "empathic war infection" on the marvel wikia, which makes me feel like it could still infect Juggernaut since it's not inherently telepathic.

His corruption isn't really potent at all...Affecting Wolverine and Deathlok really isn't impressive, and there's nothing to prove he can affect someone as powerful as Juggernaut.

Marvel Wiki isn't a valid source, as it can be edited by anyone. In fact, it even says:

No Caption Provided

This doesn't work in your favour, as Decimus would need to make contact between his axe and an opponent in order to corrupt them.

One of the very first things that will happen from my team is Javeed and Jeb infecting your team with illnesses (as shown in his character section.) From what I know of them, none of them besides Deadman will be able to resist this effect, given that these ailments have almost killed beings with some of the strongest and notorious healing factors in comics, Deadpool and Wolverine. That means Zatanna, Sentry, and Shadow King are instantly infected withcancer that eats them aliveand riddled with an influx of diseases thataffect sight, destroy healing factors, starts dementia, and causes seizures.Juggernaut can take out any of them that survive the initial ailment attack quite easily due to their weakened state.

As I mentioned before, the only person this would really affect is Zatanna. Shadow King and Deadman aren't alive, and Sentry's healing factor is much more powerful than Wolverine or Deadpool's.

To deal with Deadman, Apocalypse can easily counter his intangibility as seen earlier in scan ten of his character section. Additionally, Jericho is fairly adept at dealing with demons, he'll be able to detect Deadman's supernatural energy automatically.

Apocalypse being able to stop Kitty from phasing into him does not mean he can prevent Deadman from possessing him. Apocalypse would need feats against magical possession in order to have a counter.

I don't doubt that Doctor Voodoo or Raven could detect Deadman and affect him, but by the time that happens, he will have already possessed Apocalypse or a Horseman.

Knowing of his supernatural abilities, I see no reason why Jericho can't just take control him as he did several other types of demons in his character section,and Man-Thing.From that point, Raven puts him to sleep (as shown in her character section) orApocalypse psychically assaults him, leading to a K.O.

Controlling Man-Thing is not similar at all to controlling a ghost like Deadman.

You would need to provide proof that Raven can put a ghost to sleep.

Apocalypse NEVER psychically assaults opponents. And in the example you provided, it wasn't even really Apocalypse, it was a psychic manifestation of him, brought upon by Jean linking her powers with Cyclops and a baby Cable in order to fight the techno-organic virus in Cable.

Shadow King would stomp Apocalypse in a psychic battle.

While you definitely have some complete heavy hitters on your team, the Horsemen (particularly Javeed and Jeb) will provide problems that don't really have valid counters without the time or knowledge to prepare against them. My main team really is just here to deal with Deadman and I think they're knowledge of mysticism will aid greatly in doing so.

I see you have already underestimated my team before I even got to post my opener ;)

The Horsemen and Apocalypse are the least of my concerns. As I demonstrated in my prep section, my team will in fact have some knowledge on your team's capabilities, thanks to Zatanna.

Conclusion

Two things that I need to mention, that you did not consider in your opener:

1) Our teams begin the battle out of view from each other. Therefore, your strategy of having the Horsemen initiate the attack falls flat, since they won't be able to see my team right off the bat.

2) You don't have perfect teamwork as a perk. While I can see how Doctor Voodoo and Raven would willingly work together, I see no reason why Apocalypse would cooperate with them. His only allegiances are to himself, his clan, the Externals, and mutants. None of those apply to Doctor Voodoo or Raven. He's a villain, and a selfish one at that. There's also no guarantee that Juggernaut will cooperate, should you prove that he would indeed get summoned.

Overall, my team has several effective means of taking down your team: telepathy, possession, magic, pure striking, and energy projection.

The Horsemen are getting downed right off the bat, followed by Apocalypse. Raven and Doctor Voodoo will be the last ones standing, with maybe Juggernaut as well, but Sentry can easily deal with him or Zatanna can just BFR him.

Your move!

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Counters: Do You Believe in Magic?

Alright, you're opener was extremely strong @geekryan, let's see what I can do with it.

Theme:

Loading Video...

I'm going to split my counters up into a few different areas to try to streamline things.

Team Synergy (Teamwork and Juggernaut Summon)

Summoning some servants/fodder of Cyttorak makes sense, but why would Doctor Voodoo summon Juggernaut? AFAIK, this is the one and only time Doctor Voodoo has done this, and I don't believe he regularly summons non-fodder characters to aid him in battle... It seems odd for him to do this.

It's an all or nothing situation. The spell summons all of a Cyttorak's minions, he can't choose which ones he does/doesn't spawn. Additionally, this was his first time utilizing this specific spell (on page at least), thus he wasn't aware that it would spawn Juggernaut, in this battle he'd have that knowledge beforehand and not be surprised that it happens.

I'm not entirely convinced that Juggernaut would willingly work with someone who summoned him against his will and put his life at risk in a battle that holds no value to him. I'm also not convinced that Juggernaut would work alongside Apocalypse.

As to your first point, once again, Magik literally punished him to limbo and stripped him of his armor, and he still worked with her for a financial gain. I don't see why he wouldn't help, especially considering that he's trying to be more heroic now and he'd be fighting with Voodoo (who he knows as a hero), and when the battle begins, the enemies are two characters he doesn't know (Deadman and Zatanna), a man who has tried to kill his brother several times(Shadow King), and Death Seed Sentry, who caused very well known mass destruction across the entire Earth during his tenure.

As to him working with Apocalypse, I don't think that's really an issue at all, I'd actually argue they'd work well together. They have both been enemies of the X-Men and have transcended into relative heroism over the years, they have a lot in common and have a big link together in their relationship with Xavier. Apocalypse has a good working relationship at least with Xavier as they're both on the Quiet Council of Krakoa and Juggernaut literally went on a rampage against the entire X-Men after Charles' death. I think both characters would be fine working together.

His corruption isn't really potent at all...Affecting Wolverine and Deathlok really isn't impressive, and there's nothing to prove he can affect someone as powerful as Juggernaut.

Marvel Wiki isn't a valid source, as it can be edited by anyone. In fact, it even says:

No Caption Provided

This doesn't work in your favour, as Decimus would need to make contact between his axe and an opponent in order to corrupt them.

I don't intend to rely on this method, but it's just an alternative last ditch situation if we absolutely refuses. However, his infection is fairly potent I'd say, while his strike is the only thing that'll get someone to be under his full control, it's been shown that even his essence is able to infect individuals as TP Resistant as Fantomex simply by his presence. Note, Fantomex has been able to resist Charles Xavier and Jean Grey from probing or detecting him.

If he really does completely refuse to work with us, Apocalypse commands War to force him to as a last ditch effort with his strike

2) You don't have perfect teamwork as a perk. While I can see how Doctor Voodoo and Raven would willingly work together, I see no reason why Apocalypse would cooperate with them. His only allegiances are to himself, his clan, the Externals, and mutants. None of those apply to Doctor Voodoo or Raven. He's a villain, and a selfish one at that. There's also no guarantee that Juggernaut will cooperate, should you prove that he would indeed get summoned.

I won't claim that they'll have perfect or even good teamwork, but this fight doesn't really require that. Not to mention that Apocalypse isn't really a true villain, he has been in the past, yes, but he's way more of an anti-hero in current lore. He goes with whoever benefits him or his cause the most, in this battle, the people saying they'll aid him in battle are the ones who benefit him, so he'll cooperate at least ate basic level.

Prep Counters

One of Zatanna's more uncommon powers: divination. She can meditate or use a special deck of Tarot cards to see into the future. This divination isn't too specific and isn't as powerful as what someone like Madame Xanadu can foresee, but it is simple enough to give her concepts of what will happen and who might be involved.

In this example, she foresees the Trinity War. She sees someone dying, Constantine arguing with Batman/Superman, superheroes fighting each other, and Constantine shaking hands with Lex Luthor. All of this ends up coming true. Now I'm not saying that she will be able to see specific parts about the upcoming battle, but she will be at least able to have a general idea of what will happen. This will allow my team to better prepare for the fight. Furthermore, Zatanna/Deadman will know of Raven, while Sentry/Shadow King will know of Doctor Voodoo and Apocalypse, so my team will know who they are up against.

This seems okay, but in tandem with this:

Next, Zatanna's magic will be used to make our team magically invisible, and create a decoy illusion of them as Zatanna doesin this scan. These decoy illusions won't be a physical threat (they cannot cause any physical harm and disappear upon being attacked), but they will distract your team.Hereis a second scan of Zatanna using invisibility.

and this:

Lastly, Zatanna will thenenchant the area around us, putting up protective enchantments as she did with her mansion.As stated by the Nightmare Imp, the enchantments aren't just on the mansion itself, but extend to the area beyond the fence, meaning it can affect an area and not just the building. Those who cross into the enchanted area are teleported hundreds of miles away and transformed into a mollusk for an hour. Realistically, she could cover as much area as she wants with this spell, but to avoid any arguments about size, I would say her enchantment could at least cover thearea of land her mansion is on, which is quite large, at least 500 square feet (the size of an average mansion). So, if anyone on your team enters the area, they will be teleported far away and transmuted, unless they have strong enough magic resistances to withstand Zatanna's level of magic.

I don't think it's plausible that she get's all of this done in ten minutes. The divination, illusions, and invisibility could be done, but we have no real idea how long it would take her to set up that protective enchantment and it feels like a reach to say that it could be done along with these other things in ten minutes, especially along a 500 square feet area.

Battle Counters

As the battle begins, Shadow King will use his telepathy to reach out across the woods and determine the location of your team. Once that happens, he will attempt to psychically attack your team's minds or take control of them. This is guaranteed to drop the Horsemen, and pressure the rest of your team.

While he is certainly capable of doing this, the second Raven feels her mind being probed, she'll repel with her soul self as she does here:

Teen Titans (2003)
Teen Titans (2003)

Her TP resistance isn't amazing, by any means, but she is extremely in tune with her mind due to her empathic abilities, if she even senses anyone trying to mentally ambush her, she will push back with her soul self.

Given that this is a morals off Raven as well, she'll have no problem causing destruction or harming her opponents, leading to her being able to fully let her powers loose, as she does below.

third scan shows the battle that she was partaking in, she took out all of those opponents solo when she slightly tapped into her demonic side, with this being morals off, the damage would be even more extreme.

She is able to essentially demolish an entire horde of enemies, and as stated above, this was her still trying to control herself. In this battle, that isn't a concern for her due to morals off, which means all of these scans are really half the power that they'd be at during this battle.

Deadman will attempt to possess Apocalypse (since Doctor Voodoo and Raven would have better chances at fighting off his possession), turning one of your teammates into our ally.

To follow up the last point and this one, I want to say this. Any attempt to possess any member of my team (via Deadman or Shadow King) will be thwarted by Voodoo with his Vishanti spell, "The Corelli's Exorcism Reversal Battle Attack."

New Avengers (2010)
New Avengers (2010)

Mind you, this possession spell was enacted by the Agamotto, the first Sorcerer Supreme, who consistently scales to characters like Dormammu and Doctor Strange.

I feel safe saying that the spell would work on any member of my team to dispel any mental "takeover" attacks your team can throw at us, whether magical or telepathic.

Zatanna will begin to attack your team with various spells, focusing mainly on Raven and Doctor Voodoo.

Zatanna is a glass cannon though, as you yourself has said. I'll bring up another point you made later in order to nail two birds with one stone:

Our teams begin the battle out of view from each other. Therefore, your strategy of having the Horsemen initiate the attack falls flat, since they won't be able to see my team right off the bat.

While yes, our teams do start out of view, Jeb's drums effect anybody within earshot. If she even hears the drum slightly, it'll take her (and Sentry, which we'll get to later) down instantly

Additionally, at any point, if Voodoo notices (or Raven informs him) that Zatanna's spells are done orally, he just transmutates her mouth closed, making her relatively useless.

Savage Avengers #4
Savage Avengers #4

Sentry will bullrush towards your team and take out anyone in his way with his superhuman strength. His strength is good enough to one-shot anyone on your team.

The second Sentry gets into the area, he gets afflicted by Jeb's drums or Javeed's ailments, leading to any of my team being able to finish him off in his weakened state (once again, I'll explain in more depth later.)

The only way to deal with Shadow King is through psychic means, which no one on your team has in enough strength to overcome him.

Does he have resistance to magic? If not, Jericho can certainly manipulate his soul to trap him as he does below:

(Cable/Deadpool #48)

Even early into his career, he was able to trap a soul to incapacitate it. Also, for the record, I'm fairly certain soul and astral projections follow the same rules in terms magic, as in the first of the above scans, Jericho "pushed" Deadpool's soul into the astral plane.

Raven could also just temp BFR him into her soul self or the battlefield for the ten minute maximum to get him out of the equation long enough for us to take down the rest of your team.

Deadman can only be harmed via magical means, since he is intangible to any physical attacks.

My team could apply the same tactic as above for Deadman along with the spirit manipulation shown in Jericho's character section in post one.

Sentry's ridiculous durability and regeneration means he will be very tough to put down.

Not necessarily.

I won't even pretend that anyone on my team can take him on in a H2H encounter, but Raven, Voodoo, Jeb, and Javeed could all fairly easily at least stagger him to an extent where he could then be killed.

Raven could simply utilize her telekinesis to stop Robbie from even moving, allowing for her or anyone else on my team to do anything they want to him.

Titans United #2
Titans United #2

Jericho could possess him, as shown in his character section in post one. Or he could use his chronokinesis to disrupt Sentry's perception of time, essentially making him see a static world around him that isn't caught up in real time.

Black Panther (1998) #20

Jeb and Javeed's abilities will effect him, as stated in their character sections, they work faster than regenerative abilities.

I'd actually like to make a brief sub-section here to now talk about Sentry's regeneration.

Sentry's Regenerative Capabilities

I want to start off by saying a majority of the information I'm going off is that information you presented in your first post, so this isn't necessarily in reference to his capabilities completely, just based off of what you showed me.

From what it seems, while Sentry's regeneration is powerful, it doesn't actually stop things from happening to him like an invulnerability. For example, in each of the scans you presented for regen, he was actually hurt by what happened to him but his regeneration saved him.

By that logic, there is no reason why Javeed or Jeb's ailments wouldn't work on him. They won't kill him due to regen likely battling it, but he'll still be seriously stunted with issues like blindness, memory loss, etc. Once he's infected, Decimus can infect him with his blade to turn him on our side, effectively removing him from the battle.

Closing Statements

To close things out, I think my strategy mostly stays the same.

  • We summon Juggernaut and fodder Cyttorak helpers as brutes, which will greatly help us contend with Sentry.
  • Raven uses BFR to stop Shadow King from mentally infiltrating her, or Doctor Voodoo uses his anti-exorcism spell to dispel any telepathic attacks against us, Voodoo traps his soul.
  • Javeed and Jeb utilize their combination of deadly ailments to murder Zatanna early into the battle, or Voodoo transmutes her mouth closed to stop her spellcasting.
  • Sentry is weakened by Javeed and Jeb and possessed by War or Voodoo.
  • Deadman gets trapped by Voodoo or due to morals off Raven annihilates him at a molecular level.

Excited for your counters!

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Post #2 - Counters

It's an all or nothing situation. The spell summons all of a Cyttorak's minions, he can't choose which ones he does/doesn't spawn. Additionally, this was his first time utilizing this specific spell (on page at least), thus he wasn't aware that it would spawn Juggernaut, in this battle he'd have that knowledge beforehand and not be surprised that it happens.

Do these minions even have combat feats? All you showed them doing is help fix a wall...Even though they are minions of Cyttorak, that doesn't mean they have Juggernaut-level physicals either.

There seems to be some scans missing too, as we don't see Juggernaut actually appearing at Voodoo's side. We only see Juggernaut disappearing.

If he wasn't aware that this spell would also summon Juggernaut, what makes you think he will use this spell again? Nothing you presented for him has convinced me that he regularly summons help in combat.

As to your first point, once again, Magik literally punished him to limbo and stripped him of his armor, and he still worked with her for a financial gain. I don't see why he wouldn't help, especially considering that he's trying to be more heroic now and he'd be fighting with Voodoo (who he knows as a hero), and when the battle begins, the enemies are two characters he doesn't know (Deadman and Zatanna), a man who has tried to kill his brother several times(Shadow King), and Death Seed Sentry, who caused very well known mass destruction across the entire Earth during his tenure.

Because Juggernaut has nothing to gain from this, and a lot more to lose. You really think he would cooperate with Voodoo after being summoned against his will and asked to risk his life in a battle that does not concern him?

Current Juggernaut is more heroic now, but throughout his decades' worth of history, he has always been a villain.

As to him working with Apocalypse, I don't think that's really an issue at all, I'd actually argue they'd work well together. They have both been enemies of the X-Men and have transcended into relative heroism over the years, they have a lot in common and have a big link together in their relationship with Xavier. Apocalypse has a good working relationship at least with Xavier as they're both on the Quiet Council of Krakoa and Juggernaut literally went on a rampage against the entire X-Men after Charles' death. I think both characters would be fine working together.

Before the current 2019 relaunch of the X-Men, Apocalypse was always a villain and enemy to the X-Men. He also always has ulterior and selfish motives, and Xavier is aware of that.

I understand that you are relying on the current iterations of Apocalypse and Juggernaut to make an argument that they are heroic and will work together, but their respective histories say otherwise. Up until the last few years, both Apocalypse and Juggernaut have always been villains. Nothing you said has really convinced me that they will work well together.

I don't intend to rely on this method, but it's just an alternative last ditch situation if we absolutely refuses. However, his infection is fairly potent I'd say, while his strike is the only thing that'll get someone to be under his full control, it's been shown that even his essence is able to infect individuals as TP Resistant as Fantomex simply by his presence. Note, Fantomex has been able to resist Charles Xavier and Jean Grey from probing or detecting him.

If he really does completely refuse to work with us, Apocalypse commands War to force him to as a last ditch effort with his strike

Fantomex has had his mind affected by Psylocke on several occasions. Here is the best example:

Here, Betsy puts X-Force and a bunch of other mutants to sleep, which included Fantomex. At no other point has he blocked telepathy on the level of Jean or Xavier. Additionally, Juggernaut has better and more consistent psychic defences.

Decimus would have to 1) strike Juggernaut, and 2) actually pierce his skin, in order to infect him. Juggernaut is too durable for that to happen. He was only able to infect Betsy because she attempted to enter his mind.

I won't claim that they'll have perfect or even good teamwork, but this fight doesn't really require that. Not to mention that Apocalypse isn't really a true villain, he has been in the past, yes, but he's way more of an anti-hero in current lore. He goes with whoever benefits him or his cause the most, in this battle, the people saying they'll aid him in battle are the ones who benefit him, so he'll cooperate at least ate basic level.

"In current lore" being the important part. Two years of being heroic versus being a villain since 1986...

As long as you don't try to argue your team operating with any semblance of coordination and teamwork, we're good ;)

I don't think it's plausible that she get's all of this done in ten minutes. The divination, illusions, and invisibility could be done, but we have no real idea how long it would take her to set up that protective enchantment and it feels like a reach to say that it could be done along with these other things in ten minutes, especially along a 500 square feet area.

There is nothing to indicate that these three things will take more than 10 minutes. All of her spells function instantly as soon as she casts them. It's a simple matter of saying the spell to put a protective enchantment in the area, which is literally just a sentence worth of words. It's not like she needs to channel or maintain the protective enchantment in any way.

While he is certainly capable of doing this, the second Raven feels her mind being probed, she'll repel with her soul self as she does here:

Her TP resistance isn't amazing, by any means, but she is extremely in tune with her mind due to her empathic abilities, if she even senses anyone trying to mentally ambush her, she will push back with her soul self.

Shadow King is a significantly more powerful telepath than what Raven is used to dealing with. He has been able to probe and affect the minds of several high-tier psychics, sometimes even without them knowing. People like Phoenix Rachel, Psylocke, a team of X-Men (which included Rachel and Psylocke), another team of X-Men (which included Legion), Xavier, and the Hellfire Club (which included Emma Frost, Mastermind, and Selene).

Given that this is a morals off Raven as well, she'll have no problem causing destruction or harming her opponents, leading to her being able to fully let her powers loose, as she does below.

She is able to essentially demolish an entire horde of enemies, and as stated above, this was her still trying to control herself. In this battle, that isn't a concern for her due to morals off, which means all of these scans are really half the power that they'd be at during this battle.

Which would put her teammates at risk as well.

To follow up the last point and this one, I want to say this. Any attempt to possess any member of my team (via Deadman or Shadow King) will be thwarted by Voodoo with his Vishanti spell, "The Corelli's Exorcism Reversal Battle Attack."

Mind you, this possession spell was enacted by the Agamotto, the first Sorcerer Supreme, who consistently scales to characters like Dormammu and Doctor Strange.

I feel safe saying that the spell would work on any member of my team to dispel any mental "takeover" attacks your team can throw at us, whether magical or telepathic.

This was a weakened Agamotto:

No Caption Provided

Also, THIS is the only feat of Agamotto controlling people:

No Caption Provided

As powerful as Agamotto is, and despite scaling to Strange and Dormammu, he is severely lacking in telepathy/possession feats. Both Deadman and Shadow King have more and better feats of taking over people, including people with better magical/psychic defences.

I also don't see why Shadow King doesn't TP Voodoo right off the bat, since he can't free his teammates if he's under control or under attack.

Zatanna is a glass cannon though, as you yourself has said. I'll bring up another point you made later in order to nail two birds with one stone:

She uses spells like force fields, transmutation, teleportation, etc. in order to protect herself. She isn't as much a glass cannon as you think either:

1) Survives a blast from Power Ring, an AU version of Green Lantern

2) Takes an energy blast to the stomach

3) Takes an attack from amped Felix Faust

4) Takes a hit to the head from a Son of Trigon

5) Fine after being struck by a building-level monster

6-7) Takes punches from a possessed Wonder Woman

8) Fine after being ragdolled into a pillar by Dr Fate

9) Takes a blast from the Upside-Down Man

While yes, our teams do start out of view, Jeb's drums effect anybody within earshot. If she even hears the drum slightly, it'll take her (and Sentry, which we'll get to later) down instantly

From what we have seen, Jeb's drums only affect people within the immediate vicinity. I don't recall him affecting people out of view or from far away.

Additionally, at any point, if Voodoo notices (or Raven informs him) that Zatanna's spells are done orally, he just transmutates her mouth closed, making her relatively useless.

Zatanna doesn't NEED to speak her spells in order to cast them.

The second Sentry gets into the area, he gets afflicted by Jeb's drums or Javeed's ailments, leading to any of my team being able to finish him off in his weakened state (once again, I'll explain in more depth later.)

You need to prove that Jeb and Javeed can affect my team while out of sight and from a good distance away.

Does he have resistance to magic? If not, Jericho can certainly manipulate his soul to trap him as he does below:

Even early into his career, he was able to trap a soul to incapacitate it. Also, for the record, I'm fairly certain soul and astral projections follow the same rules in terms magic, as in the first of the above scans, Jericho "pushed" Deadpool's soul into the astral plane.

Victory is by death or KO only, so incapacitation won't cut it.

Raven could also just temp BFR him into her soul self or the battlefield for the ten minute maximum to get him out of the equation long enough for us to take down the rest of your team.

How is she going to do this if Shadow King doesn't physically exist? He lives in the Astral Plane, and he only becomes "physical" when he takes control of a host. Without a host, he is not physically present.

My team could apply the same tactic as above for Deadman along with the spirit manipulation shown in Jericho's character section in post one.

Again, incapacitation won't count.

Not necessarily.

I won't even pretend that anyone on my team can take him on in a H2H encounter, but Raven, Voodoo, Jeb, and Javeed could all fairly easily at least stagger him to an extent where he could then be killed.

Raven could simply utilize her telekinesis to stop Robbie from even moving, allowing for her or anyone else on my team to do anything they want to him.

They are going to have a hard time doing so when the rest of my team will be attacking at the same time.

DSS is significantly stronger than Superboy, so I don't see how Raven can telekinetically restrain him. Especially since he could still teleport, project energy blasts from his body, etc.

Jericho could possess him, as shown in his character section in post one. Or he could use his chronokinesis to disrupt Sentry's perception of time, essentially making him see a static world around him that isn't caught up in real time.

Can you give a feat of Voodoo doing this to someone as fast and powerful as DSS? Because your scans involve normal humans ;)

Jeb and Javeed's abilities will effect him, as stated in their character sections, they work faster than regenerative abilities.

Faster than Wolverine or Deadpool's healing factor***

DSS has a significantly stronger healing factor.

From what it seems, while Sentry's regeneration is powerful, it doesn't actually stop things from happening to him like an invulnerability. For example, in each of the scans you presented for regen, he was actually hurt by what happened to him but his regeneration saved him.

Well:

1) No-sells Spider-Woman's bio-electric blasts, which directly affect the nervous system

2) Fine after having his chemical structure altered

3) Cannot be bonded with a Symbiote

4) Ignores Rogue's absorbing/life-draining touch

5) Does not age and has no need to sleep, eat, drink, or breathe

All of this does not involve his regeneration capabilities.

By that logic, there is no reason why Javeed or Jeb's ailments wouldn't work on him. They won't kill him due to regen likely battling it, but he'll still be seriously stunted with issues like blindness, memory loss, etc. Once he's infected, Decimus can infect him with his blade to turn him on our side, effectively removing him from the battle.

The feats I provided above, plus his ability to manipulate matter, plus his regeneration, should all be enough to prove that he won't be bothered by Javeed or Jeb.

We summon Juggernaut and fodder Cyttorak helpers as brutes, which will greatly help us contend with Sentry.

You have several things to address about this before I am convinced.

Raven uses BFR to stop Shadow King from mentally infiltrating her, or Doctor Voodoo uses his anti-exorcism spell to dispel any telepathic attacks against us, Voodoo traps his soul.

BFR won't stop Shadow King, as he is a multiversal entity that exists on the Astral Plane.

Voodoo being able to dispel possession does not mean he can negate telepathy, especially on the level of Shadow King.

Javeed and Jeb utilize their combination of deadly ailments to murder Zatanna early into the battle, or Voodoo transmutes her mouth closed to stop her spellcasting.

Assuming they can affect her while they are out of sight and range.

Transmuting her mouth closed won't prevent her from casting, as I have demonstrated.

Sentry is weakened by Javeed and Jeb and possessed by War or Voodoo.

I have proven that this will not bother Sentry. War doesn't have the feats to suggest he can even pierce Sentry with his axe.

Deadman gets trapped by Voodoo or due to morals off Raven annihilates him at a molecular level.

None of these feats involve Raven affecting a ghost-like and intangible being?

Conclusion

Solid counters on your part, but I have addressed them all, and then some ;)

To be honest, it seems like you are stretching your team very, very thin. You are attempting to argue them as doing multiple things at once, whether it be attacking or defending. That isn't realistic.

I still haven't seen any feats to suggest that anyone on your team can resist telepathy on Shadow King's level. Your team does have some counters to Deadman, but that's assuming they can see him and take care of him mid-battle while he is possessing Apocalypse or someone else.

Zatanna has the most hax and versatility of anyone here, and although she is the most vulnerable physically, she has several ways to attack your team and defend herself.

Lastly, DSS is my champion for a good reason. He would one-shot anyone on your team, and he's faster than anyone on your team. He is extremely tough to put down, and he can regenerate from being killed. Since incapacitation isn't a win condition, this makes it harder for your team to take him out. Same goes for Shadow King and Deadman, who can't really be knocked out or killed.

You also completely ignored several of my arguments. Maybe you didn't deem them important enough to address, but ignoring them makes it seem like you concede to my arguments.

Overall, I am still confident that my team wins. As I said in my opener:

The Horsemen are getting downed right off the bat, followed by Apocalypse. Raven and Doctor Voodoo will be the last ones standing, with maybe Juggernaut as well, but Sentry can easily deal with him or Zatanna can just BFR him.

Your move! :)

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Closer: The Power of Three (+4)

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I had a lot of fun with this debate, let's go!

Final Counters Pt. 1 (Teamwork, Juggernaut, Prep)

Do these minions even have combat feats? All you showed them doing is help fix a wall...Even though they are minions of Cyttorak, that doesn't mean they have Juggernaut-level physicals either.

I never claimed they did, I don't really see them being relevant here. They're just a means to an end (getting Jugs.)

There seems to be some scans missing too, as we don't see Juggernaut actually appearing at Voodoo's side. We only see Juggernaut disappearing.

It's because it was spread out across several issues (and there are minor time jumps), but here's the entire interaction (it's Uncanny Avengers [2015] #28-29.)

He accidentally summoned Juggernaut while he was being transported to prison. The storyline doesn't make sense exactly because Juggernaut was literally smack in the middle of his own solo series , having a redemption arc, as this issue came out, but I guess the timelines are just messed up there, as in his most recent appearance (to my knowledge), Savage Avengers #26, he's free and working with the heroes.

If he wasn't aware that this spell would also summon Juggernaut, what makes you think he will use this spell again?

Nothing you presented for him has convinced me that he regularly summons help in combat.

Because Juggernaut has nothing to gain from this, and a lot more to lose. You really think he would cooperate with Voodoo after being summoned against his will and asked to risk his life in a battle that does not concern him?

Current Juggernaut is more heroic now, but throughout his decades' worth of history, he has always been a villain.

I don't understand the first argument. Him not knowing it would summon Juggernaut was due to that being his first time doing the spell, of course this battle would be set after that situation which means he would now know the full intended uses of that spell now that it has actually been cast.

In terms of your second question, he literally carried his brother Daniel Drumm within him and summoned him in every battle for a solid 50+ real life years of his comic history. The only reason I've not brought him up here is because, under the assumption we're using current versions, they've recently became separated.

However, if we're going the route of taking into account a characters entire personal history and 60/40ing the ratio of what they've done in the past against what they're doing now, Jericho and Daniel are best of friends. Jericho summons Daniel and Daniel's spirit proceeds to phase through Juggernaut's armor and possess him, making him an ally without any question.

Daniel summoning feats, for the record:

So no matter what way it swings:

A) Juggernaut works with us because he's currently a hero and it would make sense due to his current allegiances.

or

B) We don't take into account current versions, which means Jericho can summon his body possessing brother Daniel, and Juggernaut gets possessed anyways.

Before the current 2019 relaunch of the X-Men, Apocalypse was always a villain and enemy to the X-Men. He also always has ulterior and selfish motives, and Xavier is aware of that.

I understand that you are relying on the current iterations of Apocalypse and Juggernaut to make an argument that they are heroic and will work together, but their respective histories say otherwise. Up until the last few years, both Apocalypse and Juggernaut have always been villains. Nothing you said has really convinced me that they will work well together.

Same arguments as above in reference to Juggernaut.

In reference to Apocalypse, I was never arguing that he would be perfect in-sync during the battle. My gameplan doesn't even revolve him doing anything except for leading the Horsemen (which is undeniably in character) and trying to win the fight (once again, undeniably in character.)

Fantomex has had his mind affected by Psylocke on several occasions. Here is the best example:

Here, Betsy puts X-Force and a bunch of other mutants to sleep, which included Fantomex. At no other point has he blocked telepathy on the level of Jean or Xavier. Additionally, Juggernaut has better and more consistent psychic defences.

Decimus would have to 1) strike Juggernaut, and 2) actually pierce his skin, in order to infect him. Juggernaut is too durable for that to happen. He was only able to infect Betsy because she attempted to enter his mind.

Once again, the Decimus thing is a hail-mary backup plan. Even in the scenario that Juggernaut outrightly just REFUSES and tries to murder us, Jericho or Raven just BFR him and we waste our prep time. However, it won't come to that.

There is nothing to indicate that these three things will take more than 10 minutes. All of her spells function instantly as soon as she casts them. It's a simple matter of saying the spell to put a protective enchantment in the area, which is literally just a sentence worth of words. It's not like she needs to channel or maintain the protective enchantment in any way.

But it's clear that she is in a relative meditative state in the scan where she's using divination, which does tell me that certain spells do require more than just "speaking." In a mass spell, like enchanting the entire battlefield, I don't think you can just assume that that'll happen so quickly along with the other aspects of your prep since the spell has never been seen performed.

As you said in your character section and show later as well, it's clear that "speak magic" isn't the only kind she uses, so it also isn't really a fact that she even used the magic you're implying she used to create this barrier. Unless you have scans that show her putting this up in the way you say she is, it really isn't something that can be proven for her to do in this short time frame.

Also, if Voodoo or Raven get BFR'd, they just port back. This would only even effect Apocalypse and the Horsemen.

Final Counters (General Battle)

Shadow King is a significantly more powerful telepath than what Raven is used to dealing with. He has been able to probe and affect the minds of several high-tier psychics, sometimes even without them knowing. People likePhoenix Rachel,Psylocke, ateam of X-Men(which included Rachel and Psylocke), anotherteam of X-Men(which included Legion),Xavier, and theHellfire Club(which included Emma Frost, Mastermind, and Selene).

He's no doubt a top tier telepath, but literally every time someone has encountered Raven's mind she has utilized her soul self in defense. It makes sense she would do so here off pure instinct.

Which would put her teammates at risk as well.

It usually only affects hostiles, it did in the scans I presented earlier and also does below:

No Caption Provided

Some of them might have felt the lash, but her assailant was the only one that was truly affected by it.

This was a weakened Agamotto:

Also, THIS is the only feat of Agamotto controlling people:

As powerful as Agamotto is, and despite scaling to Strange and Dormammu, he is severely lacking in telepathy/possession feats. Both Deadman and Shadow King have more and better feats of taking over people, including people with better magical/psychic defences.

All of those statements are completely false.

This sequence of events happens between New Avengers (2010) Issues #1 through #6, and Agamotto is revealed as the villain in Issue #5. In Issue #1, before even stealing the Eye back, he was able to possess both Doctor Strange and Hellstrom. In Issue #2, he goes on to control Luke Cage and Iron Fist. In Issue #5, he does the aforementioned possession of the entire New Avengers.

His main goal throughout the storyline is to get the Eye of Agamotto back to retain his full power in order to take over the universe due the Vishanti not controlling the magical energies any longer, so the Eye was essentially an amp for him, not a part of his standard powerset and everything he did in this six issue run was without the eye amp.

I can't really provide scans against this argument in any way that makes sense as it's a pretty expansive storyline that is explained in bits and pieces throughout the six issue arc with a twist that makes it even more convoluted, but the most important issues to read for context of my arguments are issues 2, 5, and 6.

With all that being said, I still stand by the spell being able to free any of my team from mental imprisonment.

I also don't see why Shadow King doesn't TP Voodoo right off the bat, since he can't free his teammates if he's under control or under attack.

If his body gets taken, he moves into astral form, takes over someone else, and frees himself.

She uses spells like force fields, transmutation, teleportation, etc. in order to protect herself. She isn't as much a glass cannon as you think either:

None of this protects from the Horsemen's ailments, which is her primary issue.

From what we have seen, Jeb's drums only affect people within the immediate vicinity. I don't recall him affecting people out of view or from far away.

It's auditory, so it affects people who hear them. Even if they don't hear initially, when they get within a fighting range, they will be affected.

Zatanna doesn't NEED to speak her spells in order to cast them.

This is true.

You need to prove that Jeb and Javeed can affect my team while out of sight and from a good distance away.

I think I wasn't clear, so my bad. When I said "entered the area", I wasn't exactly referring to spawn point in that statement. I was referring to when he tries to come at us, the same thing that happened to Archangel (as shown in previous posts) happens to him.

Victory is by death or KO only, so incapacitation won't cut it.

Again, incapacitation won't count.

Removing their soul from their body and indefinitely trapping it would certainly result in death for their physical bodies, which would likely count as death as there's no real way for either of our teams to kill each other's souls. It'd just end up being an astral ghost party since permanent BFR isn't a thing and I'd assume soul banishment counts as BFR. I'll ask host for clarification on the win conditions, however.

How is she going to do this if Shadow King doesn't physically exist? He lives in the Astral Plane, and he only becomes "physical" when he takes control of a host. Without a host, he is not physically present.

I don't see why he would have to be physical in order to be absorbed. It'd essentially be a battle of them on the Astral Plane, but she'd be removed from her body, which stops her from being possessed. All she has to do is teleport behind him and swallow.

DSS is significantly stronger than Superboy, so I don't see how Raven can telekinetically restrain him. Especially since he could still teleport, project energy blasts from his body, etc.

He is stronger no doubt, but that doesn't mean she can't TK restrain him while he's weakened by ailments.

Can you give a feat of Voodoo doing this to someone as fast and powerful as DSS? Because your scans involve normal humans ;)

I don't see how that matters, by that same logic many of Zatanna's feats would be void if they're just assumed to not be able to work on people above a certain power level.

The only other time he uses this style of chronomancy was when saving Wonder Man's life, in a similarly passive context.

Also, human? The disrespect! That's Moon Knight dammit!

Faster than Wolverine or Deadpool's healing factor***

DSS has a significantly stronger healing factor.

1) No-sells Spider-Woman's bio-electric blasts, which directly affect the nervous system

2) Fine after having his chemical structure altered

3) Cannot be bonded with a Symbiote

4) Ignores Rogue's absorbing/life-draining touch

5) Does not age and has no need to sleep, eat, drink, or breathe

All of this does not involve his regeneration capabilities.

None of these disprove anything I said.

The only one that comes close is the Spider-Woman scan, and that could be more attributed to his durability rather than his regen.

The second scan actually actively proves my point as well, he was being affected from the machine until it stopped.

I still stand by him being weakened by these ailments at least to a level to where his performance is weakened, as you still have not shown him having IMMUNITY to these or related abilities, you've just shown him being able to recover from them.

The feats I provided above, plus his ability to manipulate matter, plus his regeneration, should all be enough to prove that he won't be bothered by Javeed or Jeb.

Most of the things you've shown prove that he actively gets affected by these abilities and his regen helps with the healing process, but he still can and will be affected by them.

BFR won't stop Shadow King, as he is a multiversal entity that exists on the Astral Plane.

Voodoo being able to dispel possession does not mean he can negate telepathy, especially on the level of Shadow King.

Went over the Voodoo stuff earlier, but in regards to BFR, there is no real reasonable reason why he wouldn't be able to be teleported. The astral plane exists in tandem with reality, it's not a seperate form of existence, it's all a matter of being able to control/manipulate things in the Astral Plane which both Raven and Voodoo have been shown to be able to do throughout this match.

None of these feats involve Raven affecting a ghost-like and intangible being?

She was literally about to destroy his soul, so I think the logic tracks.

To be honest, it seems like you are stretching your team very, very thin. You are attempting to argue them as doing multiple things at once, whether it be attacking or defending. That isn't realistic.

Not really. 95% of what I've shown are active combat feats, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to replicate so here, especially while morals off.

I still haven't seen any feats to suggest that anyone on your team can resist telepathy on Shadow King's level. Your team does have some counters to Deadman, but that's assuming they can see him and take care of him mid-battle while he is possessing Apocalypse or someone else.

A base Agamotto being able to possess Doctor Strange, Hellstrom, Captain Marvel, several other heroes, and Voodoo being able to clear them should honestly kill any Shadow King or Deadman argument. Even if they guess and go for Voodoo first, he just astral projects out as he did when he was possessed before and removes the possession from his body.

Zatanna has the most hax and versatility of anyone here, and although she is the most vulnerable physically, she has several ways to attack your team and defend herself.

Zatanna really wouldn't be able to last long in this fight, she gets physically dominated by half my team and murdered by misc. magical attacks by the other half.

Lastly, DSS is my champion for a good reason. He would one-shot anyone on your team, and he's faster than anyone on your team. He is extremely tough to put down, and he can regenerate from being killed. Since incapacitation isn't a win condition, this makes it harder for your team to take him out. Same goes for Shadow King and Deadman, who can't really be knocked out or killed.

Sentry is a completely powerhouse character, but he doesn't have any true solid counter to time manipulation/soul manipulation/empathic manipulation and honestly, his regen is not as good as you've hyped it up to be. It's strong against actual physical and energy attacks, but it's resistance to magical and hax attacks are fairly non-existent.

You also completely ignored several of my arguments. Maybe you didn't deem them important enough to address, but ignoring them makes it seem like you concede to my arguments.

Going back, I'm pretty sure I responded to everything? Maybe some things were skipped over if they've already been countered, but that's just to stop repetition. No need for voters to read the same counter formatted in a different sentence, you know?

Final Conclusion

Alright! I'm finished, once again, my strategy is the same.

  • As soon as Zatanna/Sentry come into range, they get weakened by Jebailments and taken out by Decimus, Apocalypse and Juggernaut.
  • Shadow King and Deadman get BFR'd until we find a way to deal with them.
  • Brother Voodoo traps their souls indefinitely to cause their physical forms to die, or resort to soul removal if not viable win condition.

That's it from me!

@zetsu-san If you don't mind, can you clarify the win conditions. If an opponent doesn't have a form that can be killed, would indefinite incap and body death count as a win condition? Similarly, if that's not a valid win condition, is banishment and soul destruction a valid win condition?

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#34  Edited By Zetsu-San

@youngjustice: @geekryan

@zetsu-san If you don't mind, can you clarify the win conditions. If an opponent doesn't have a form that can be killed, would indefinite incap and body death count as a win condition? Similarly, if that's not a valid win condition, is banishment and soul destruction a valid win condition?

Yea death, KO, soul-destruction, and indefinite incapacitation are all win-conditions.

Banishment is a bit more iffy, since it's kind of in line with BFR. As long as you're not using it to cheese/avoid an actual battle, as in "I send you to another dimension and leave you there, GG) I think it's fine. Like, if you've clearly won the fight and your opponent can't really do anything other than be "technically not dead yet", then I think banishment is fine to finish them off.

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#35  Edited By TheVoidofDeath
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Post #3 - Conclusion

Apologies for the delay. Let's wrap this up!

Counters

It's because it was spread out across several issues (and there are minor time jumps), but here's the entire interaction (it's Uncanny Avengers [2015] #28-29.)

He accidentally summoned Juggernaut while he was being transported to prison. The storyline doesn't make sense exactlybecause Juggernaut was literally smack in the middle of his own solo series, having a redemption arc, as this issue came out, but I guess the timelines are just messed up there, as in his most recent appearance (to my knowledge), Savage Avengers #26, he's free and working with the heroes.

Thanks for providing the context! However, it seems as though Scarlet Witch was involved with the spell as well. She says "I'm ready when you are, Jericho" and is shown casting alongside Voodoo. This makes it seem as though they worked together, or at least combined their magic, in order to accomplish this. Meaning Voodoo would not be able to replicate this spell on his own.

I don't understand the first argument. Him not knowing it would summon Juggernaut was due to that being his first time doing the spell, of course this battle would be set after that situation which means he would now know the full intended uses of that spell now that it has actually been cast.

As I just mentioned, he needed the help of Scarlet Witch in order to replicate this. Furthermore, one instance of him accidentally summoning Juggernaut is not enough to say he will do this in our battle. Why hasn't he done this at any other point?

In terms of your second question, he literally carried his brother Daniel Drumm within him and summoned him in every battle for a solid 50+ real life years of his comic history. The only reason I've not brought him up here is because, under the assumption we're using current versions, they've recently became separated.

So no matter what way it swings:

A) Juggernaut works with us because he's currently a hero and it would make sense due to his current allegiances.

or

B) We don't take into account current versions, which means Jericho can summon his body possessing brother Daniel, and Juggernaut gets possessed anyways.

Because it's his brother and they were bonded together, so it would make sense for him to use his brother in combat. That does not prove Voodoo would summon help from other sources, and you haven't provided enough feats for me to believe this is a standard tactic of his. Zatanna has summoned Swamp Thing, Phantom Stranger, John Constantine, and the Upside-Down Man. Does that mean she would summon them in a combat situation? No, not at all.

Overall, I really don't buy this strategy whatsoever. It seems super random and inconsistent for Voodoo to do, and he'd also have to force Juggernaut to fight for him, or convince him to do so in a battle that does not involve him. Lastly, there's the matter of him being able to replicate the spell without the help of Scarlet Witch.

Once again, the Decimus thing is a hail-mary backup plan. Even in the scenario that Juggernaut outrightly just REFUSES and tries to murder us, Jericho or Raven just BFR him and we waste our prep time. However, it won't come to that.

I really don't think it is...You keep mentioning it in every post, several times. It seems you are heavily relying on the Four Horsemen to win this fight, even more so than your own team lol.

But it's clear that she is in a relative meditative state in the scan where she's using divination, which does tell me that certain spells do require more than just "speaking." In a mass spell, like enchanting the entire battlefield, I don't think you can just assume that that'll happen so quickly along with the other aspects of your prep since the spell has never been seen performed.

As you said in your character section and show later as well, it's clear that "speak magic" isn't the only kind she uses, so it also isn't really a fact that she even used the magic you're implying she used to create this barrier. Unless you have scans that show her putting this up in the way you say she is, it really isn't something that can be proven for her to do in this short time frame.

There is no proof that her divination took longer than 10 minutes. It took place over 3 panels and a few spoken sentences between her and John. I would be generous to say that more than a minute had passed during that time.

Considering that the vast majority of her spells happen as soon as she is done speaking them, it is safe to say her enchantment spell won't take long to perform. You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, and the burden of proof is on you here.

Also, if Voodoo or Raven get BFR'd, they just port back. This would only even effect Apocalypse and the Horsemen.

The enchantment doesn't just BFR them, it also transmutes them into mollusks.

He's no doubt a top tier telepath, but literally every time someone has encountered Raven's mind she has utilized her soul self in defense. It makes sense she would do so here off pure instinct.

You claim that Raven's Soul Self would defend her if her mind is attacked, but you haven't proven that Raven or her Soul Self could fight off a telepath as powerful as Shadow King.

You said: "Her TP resistance isn't amazing, by any means, but she is extremely in tune with her mind due to her empathic abilities, if she even senses anyone trying to mentally ambush her, she will push back with her soul self."...

...while providing no evidence of this. All you showed was Raven fighting off a fodder psychic. How does that prove she can stop Shadow King from instantly knocking her out with a psychic attack?

It usually only affects hostiles, it did in the scans I presented earlier and also does below:

Sure, but you're claiming that a morals off Raven would cause large-scale destruction all around her. In the scan you posted, Raven is further away from the other Titans, which would explain why they were untouched by her Soul Self.

All of those statements are completely false.

This sequence of events happens between New Avengers (2010) Issues #1 through #6, and Agamotto is revealed as the villain in Issue #5. In Issue #1, before even stealing the Eye back, he was able to possess both Doctor Strange and Hellstrom. In Issue #2, he goes on to control Luke Cage and Iron Fist. In Issue #5, he does the aforementioned possession of the entire New Avengers.

His main goal throughout the storyline is to get the Eye of Agamotto back to retain his full power in order to take over the universe due the Vishanti not controlling the magical energies any longer, so the Eye was essentially an amp for him, not a part of his standard powerset and everything he did in this six issue run was without the eye amp.

I can't really provide scans against this argument in any way that makes sense as it's a pretty expansive storyline that is explained in bits and pieces throughout the six issue arc with a twist that makes it even more convoluted, but the most important issues to read for context of my arguments are issues 2, 5, and 6.

With all that being said, I still stand by the spell being able to free any of my team from mental imprisonment.

The scan I presented proving that Agamotto was not at full power comes from New Avengers issue 6. Voodoo says: "I know why you came for this. Because without the Vishanti in place, it is the only thing that could defeat you. If the Vishanti have cast you out, most of your power have been stripped from you."

In the first issue, we never actually see Hellstrom or Strange get possessed by Agamotto. We see Hellstrom being possessed, and the next time we see Strange, he is possessed as well. It happened off-panel, so we don't know how it happened, if prep was involved, etc. There are too many unknown variables here.

Not only that, but magical possession is not the same as telepathy. It might work with Deadman, but it won't work with Shadow King. And that's assuming Voodoo isn't too busy fighting and defending himself to free his controlled teammates mid-battle.

If his body gets taken, he moves into astral form, takes over someone else, and frees himself.

That's assuming Shadow King tries to control Voodoo instead of just taking him out with a psychic attack.

None of this protects from the Horsemen's ailments, which is her primary issue.

It's auditory, so it affects people who hear them. Even if they don't hear initially, when they get within a fighting range, they will be affected.

There is no proof that the Horsemen's powers can work through force fields, or if Zatanna is out of sight from them.

Removing their soul from their body and indefinitely trapping it would certainly result in death for their physical bodies, which would likely count as death as there's no real way for either of our teams to kill each other's souls. It'd just end up being an astral ghost party since permanent BFR isn't a thing and I'd assume soul banishment counts as BFR. I'll ask host for clarification on the win conditions, however.

The host clarified this by saying:

"Yea death, KO, soul-destruction, and indefinite incapacitation are all win-conditions.

Banishment is a bit more iffy, since it's kind of in line with BFR. As long as you're not using it to cheese/avoid an actual battle, as in "I send you to another dimension and leave you there, GG) I think it's fine. Like, if you've clearly won the fight and your opponent can't really do anything other than be "technically not dead yet", then I think banishment is fine to finish them off."

Regardless, Shadow King doesn't even have a soul. He is going to be much, much harder to down. I could see Voodoo trapping Deadman or something, but given what you are claiming Voodoo will do, he will be stretched way too thin during the battle. Would he put himself at risk in order to take the time to free Apocalypse or the Horsemen? Probably not.

He is stronger no doubt, but that doesn't mean she can't TK restrain him while he's weakened by ailments.

You haven't shown Raven being able to telekinetically restrain someone as powerful as DSS, who can also teleport, attack with energy blasts from his body, manipulate matter, etc.

I don't see how that matters, by that same logic many of Zatanna's feats would be void if they're just assumed to not be able to work on people above a certain power level.

Using chronokinesis on a regular human does NOT mean he can do it against anyone. Sentry is much faster than a regular human, so his perceptions would have to be slowed a lot more for it to have a significant effect.

Zatanna has used chronokinesis to freeze time, but she has only done it against regular humans. That isn't the same as what Voodoo has done.

None of these disprove anything I said.

The only one that comes close is the Spider-Woman scan, and that could be more attributed to his durability rather than his regen.

The second scan actually actively proves my point as well, he was being affected from the machine until it stopped.

I still stand by him being weakened by these ailments at least to a level to where his performance is weakened, as you still have not shown him having IMMUNITY to these or related abilities, you've just shown him being able to recover from them.

This is a NLF argument. Just because the Horsemen's ailments worked on Wolverine and Deadpool does NOT mean it can work on everyone. Especially someone like DSS, who has a much better healing factor, can resurrect himself, and has absolute control over his molecular structure. And who: can no-sell attacks that affect the nervous system, survive having his chemical structure altered, cannot be bonded by a Symbiote, ignore Rogue's life-draining powers, and has no need to eat/drink/sleep/breathe.

Most of the things you've shown prove that he actively gets affected by these abilities and his regen helps with the healing process, but he still can and will be affected by them.

Nothing I have presented proves this though?? As if someone who can survive being destroyed on a molecular level, regenerate while within the Sun, and resurrect himself after being blown up, among everything else I presented, is going to be bothered by cancer or the Black Plague lol. Even Psylocke, who has no healing factor, was surviving these ailments and still capable of using her telepathy. A bit of a reach for you here...

Went over the Voodoo stuff earlier, but in regards to BFR, there is no real reasonable reason why he wouldn't be able to be teleported. The astral plane exists in tandem with reality, it's not a seperate form of existence, it's all a matter of being able to control/manipulate things in the Astral Plane which both Raven and Voodoo have been shown to be able to do throughout this match.

Exactly. The Astral Plane is an alternate dimension that co-exists with the physical plane. SK's mind exists on the Astral Plane, and he exists across all realities. The Astral Plane has been referred to as the Shadow King's realm. Nothing you presented proves that either Voodoo or Raven could manipulate the Astral Plane in order to banish or BFR the Shadow King.

She was literally about to destroy his soul, so I think the logic tracks.

And how is attempting to rip out a human's soul equivalent to destroying Deadman's soul? Keeping in mind that he isn't human.

base Agamotto being able to possess Doctor Strange, Hellstrom, Captain Marvel, several other heroes, and Voodoo being able to clear them should honestly kill any Shadow King or Deadman argument. Even if they guess and go for Voodoo first, he just astral projects out as he did when he was possessed before and removes the possession from his body.

Not really. You keep equating magical possession to telepathy, which is completely wrong. They are not the same thing. Not all magic-users can utilize telepathy the same way that telepaths can. Dr Strange can't replicate everything Shadow King can do with telepathy. How is Voodoo's spell going to work when Shadow King can just attack their minds with a psychic bolt and KO them right off the bat? He has done this against Psylocke, and against Xavier on several occasions. There is no mind control or possession to clear.

Zatanna really wouldn't be able to last long in this fight, she gets physically dominated by half my team and murdered by misc. magical attacks by the other half.

A huge underestimation of Zatanna. No one on your team is a physical threat to Zatanna, and her magic is more than enough to fight off Voodoo or Raven, and even good enough to harm them.

Sentry is a completely powerhouse character, but he doesn't have any true solid counter to time manipulation/soul manipulation/empathic manipulation and honestly, his regen is not as good as you've hyped it up to be. It's strong against actual physical and energy attacks, but it's resistance to magical and hax attacks are fairly non-existent.

From the hax you have mentioned, the only one I can see working on him is soul manipulation. For everything else, I'm not convinced your team has the means to stop him, based on what you have shown.

Despite being a powerhouse, I have proven that he has a bunch of other powers that can work on your team. No one on your team has the durability to survive even a single strike from DSS. Furthermore, SK can help protect his mind, while Zatanna can help magically protect him.

As soon as Zatanna/Sentry come into range, they get weakened by Jebailments and taken out by Decimus, Apocalypse and Juggernaut.

Only Zatanna would be affected by their ailments, and maybe not even then if she has a force field up. The Horsemen are not a major factor in this fight, and all of them would get one-shotted by anyone on my team.

Shadow King and Deadman get BFR'd until we find a way to deal with them.

Brother Voodoo traps their souls indefinitely to cause their physical forms to die, or resort to soul removal if not viable win condition.

Deadman could get BFR'd, but I'm not convinced about Shadow King. Even so, if Voodoo focuses on them, it would leave him open to attack from Zatanna or DSS.

Conclusion

As I said before: it seems like you are stretching your team very, very thin. You are attempting to argue them as doing multiple things at once, whether it be attacking or defending. That isn't realistic.

You are heavily relying on the Four Horsemen to incapacitate my team, but they would all get taken out right off the bat by anyone of my team. You basically ignored Apocalypse, and made little use of Raven, while putting all your eggs into one Voodoo-shaped basket ;)

You didn't really convincingly counter a lot of what I posted, including the invisibility, divination, etc. These are important factors that give my team a huge advantage. You have also made many arguments that seem way out of character or are too inconsistent for your team to do, like summoning Juggernaut.

DSS is much faster than anyone on your team, and you haven't provided any speed feats to prove that your team can react to a bullrush from him. They also wouldn't survive an attack from him, given how little you presented for their durability.

Overall, I'm very confident that my team would win this fight.

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#37  Edited By geekryan
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YoungJustice

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@geekryan: I had a lot of fun as well! Definitely my favorite debate I've had since coming back to this site. May the best team win!

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bump

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DragonoidPower

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Hmm after reading through this I'll have to give my vote to @youngjustice.

While both did a good job debating I feel like youngjustice provided more evidence for their claims and IMO this lead their arguments to be more solid. That as well as having counters to a good number of hax like astral projection and the like.

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My vote goes to @geekryan. Both did very well, I’m just not entirely convinced with @youngjustice’s argument. My main issue is Sentry which I think is a big factor in this fight. I’m not entirely sure the 4 horsemen could mess with Sentry to the point where dealing with him is feasible. If he was at his base then I’d probably be convinced but he’s stronger than his base and his void form. On top of that, I don’t think him losing his senses would really be an issue either. Unless voodoo uses his magic to block his teammates from telepathic tracking then Sentry could just rely on his telepathy.

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@thevoidofdeath: It’s open for votes now, if you want to give your opinion.

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@zetsu-san: Okay, I'll look at it later tonight !

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