Atomic-X? Is this in any way half Alien-X? B/c if so, you aren't allowed to use him. If it's not, ignore this part.
It is, I wasn't aware that he wasn't usable. Regardless this doesn't take away my claims. Ben still has his Time-Cycle. His teleportation is still intact.
As for the next part; any feats of this Anhilia-thing actually destroying a universe, or is it just statements? Feats>Statements, otherwise I don't really see this happening.
The video I showed was right after the Anihilaarg just destroyed a universe. But if you'd like more proof I'd be veryhappy to oblige:
Not to mention, why would he even go get it? He doesn't know who he's facing, so it would be useless to bring such a powerful weapon (if it has the feats) to a random encounter. All he has is basic knowledge; a powerful green brute (whom he might confuse with Vilgax) and an energy manipulating badass.
That would only work to my advantage. I consider basic knowledge to be a lot more specific than that but even so a composite Ben includes Eon. Here's a quick bio C/P'd from the wiki:
"Eon is an inter-dimensional timeline traveler and one of Ben's major adversaries. He is the arch-enemy of Professor Paradox, as well as an alternate and evil version of Ben. He first appeared in Ben 10: Race Against Time."......" Underneath his helmet, Eon's unmasked face is identical to that of Ultimate Ben 10,000 due to the fact that he is another adult version of Ben."
And if you didn't know he tried to destroy Ben Prime's universe because he thwarted his plan 6 years ago. (This included him destroying himself and his comrades) So him destroying someone he thought he was Vilgax, the person who's repeatedly harmed Ben and his family isn't far-fetched at all. It's very likely to happen.
Is it really time slowed down, or are his thoughts sped up? It looks like the latter in the video, and I'd also note that the things being thrown at him aren't moving all that fast.
Clockwork has time manipulation, and naturally isn't very fast. He obviously has slowed time for himself. And the intensity of the time manip depends on how much he wants it to be. Like here. He ages a piece of wood to dust. Something that take hundreds of years done in seconds:
Don't do that; go back and look from about 13:50. Clockwork literally whines about being hit on the head from a moving object thrown by that squid thing; damage that Hulk can more than easily replicate
And how is Ben going to get hit? When he's much faster? And Clockwork has tanked much worse. That part only exists for comical relief.
So he's going to combine Clockwork (someone easily susceptible to blunt force damage, as seen in the video you provided) with Feedback (I'm guessing some kind of energy absorber)? Not a bad combo, time slowing down and energy being redirected. However, is it really enough? I mean, you have to first prove that the Anihi-thingy can even destroy a galaxy!
Check. Proved it all.
The thunderclap! Most likely Hulk's most well-known and signature move, he's been able to cause devastation to just about anyone in the MU with this move. In your video, Clockwork was whining about being hit in the head with a pipe. Hulk not only exceeds that power, he makes it seem like a firecracker in comparison! It's an AoE move, so even with lightspeed and a slowed down move, he wouldn't be able to dodge it and would be instantly KO'd.
And how would Hulk get this off again? It seems as if he'd get blitzed with them having equal start speed then Ben immediately being faster?
And now to the latter:
Krle Rebuttal:
As my teammate said, he has basic knowledge. Why would Ben take such a weapon? Also normally I would believe you but based on some flaws I see in this statement, I would actually prefer to see proof that Ben can actually use that weapon. Does Plumber facility even has it?
I've already addressed why exactly Ben would want to bring the Anihilaarg to this battle. But you want proof that the plumbers "has" it? Please refer to the episode "Mud is thicker than water". That's exactly where it is. You can see here that it's in the Plumber facility:
(10:40)
And does the Anihilaarg currently reside in the Plumber facility? No it doesn't. But does that matter? No. You see Ben using his Time-Cycle is handy. He can teleport to that specific instance in time to retrieve the Anihilaarg to use.
. Actually it looks like a device that creates Universes. And I know, creating something is way more impressive than destroying it (logically) but does it mean it has that damage output? To destroy the Universe?
Here's all the information on the Anihilaarg you need C/P'd from the wiki:
"When the Anihilaarg is activated, upon detonation, it will either create or destroy an entire universe; if the Anihilaarg is activated in a timeless place where no universe exists yet, then it will create an entire new universe, but if there is already a universe there, then the Anihilaarg will instead wipe all of that universe out."
So yes, the Anihilaarg can destroy as well as create a new universe. But since there is a universe it should destroy it. Giving Feedback/Clockwork the ability to use it on you guys.
Because that explosion wasn't even on nuclear level and one of Ben's aliens I don't recognize with the combination of other aliens or whatever, contained it long enough to redirect it as an attack
Yes, it's been proven. And Feedback can also condense energy. That's most likely why it looked so small.
Wendell has one weapon that could counter pretty much everything.
Cosmic Awareness
That's right. There is a point in time when his friend Richard Rider used Quantum Bands. At that time Wendell was in his Energy Form (which I can use). Rich encountered Ego The Living Planet. More Powerful than any Herald, including Surfer and Quasar. So, Wendell told Rich how to defeat it. How? He just knew it. Plain simple.
I really don't see how cosmic awareness will help you at all. Dick Rider and Wendell both had previous encounters with Ego so they'd know him, Ben is from a totally different universe. In fact when confronted with extra-dimensional forces he weakens, and his cosmic awareness doesn't allow him to detect powers of extra-dimensional beings:
Quasar's energy shouldn't even touch Ben or his watch because of the mana that his cousin Gwen endowed him with.
In fact, I am certain Wendell will actually know what every alien Ben has is capable of which will allow him to counter it in some way.
All that's in Ben's watch is DNA from millions of aliens. So you're telling me that Quasar can detect billions of strands of dna from millions of aliens while all the while determining what they do and how to stop them. And from all 8 watches all the while fighting. Please prove it. Quasar has never done anything on that scale with his cosmic awareness. And prove Wendell's cosmic awareness works on beings from different multiverses.
Well one of the stuff he can do is just kill Ben before he activates his weapon. Maybe just project his constructs into his brain?
Why would he do this again? He's fighting against a 10 year old boy. In fact, why would Wendell fight at all? He's fighting against 2, 10 year olds. Wendell barely like to fight against regular people. He often tries to be diplomatic in fights trying to prevent violence with mass murderers. He'd never ever attack a child.
Another counter for your "Universal Busting weapon" is to BFR your weapon into the Quantum Zone or any other place in the Universe.
So he can go teleport to go get it? That seems unlike for him to even try and do it.
Also unless Atomic-X doesn't have any ability that comes to the close of level of Alien X (as he is 50% Alien X) you are not allowed to use him
No, he's inferior to Alien-X in every way.
Slow down time? Mate that ability would be effective if it is actually impressive. That ability isn't gonna slow down Wendell considering the fact how that ability does not operate on any level close to being impressive when your up against team of powerhouses like these. Sorry for my harsh words but Ben is not slowing time that much, at all. Wendell on the other hand operates on span of Nanosecond
As does Clockwork. He has the ability to control how intense his rays are. And his rays are even more intense considering his Galvanic Mechamorph amp that was given to him making him a lot stronger. And he also has lightspeed furthering my point,
Why Wendell beats Ben
You have to prove that device can destroy the Universe. (Done)
You have to prove Plumbers have it.
You have to explain why Ben will bring such a powerful weapon (if it is capable of busting the Universe in the first place). (Done)
Even if you prove everything above, Wendell has counter for your weapon and has counter for Clockwork. (Debunked, unless you present considerable evidence)
I don't see why any aliens are effective against Wendell. Alien-X is not allowed and Atomic-X should not be allowed either. (Edited)
Wendell is too powerful, more destructive, more durable, more versatile and has counter for your Hax. Can't say the same for Ben. (Counter for hax? Nope)
Conclusions:
You gotta prove why Wendell will even attack Ben
You have to prove Wendell's abilities can pierce Ben's mana
Even if you did get to attack ben Feedback could absorb it
Cool. So, from what I'm seeing, Ben is going to unleash that much power unto us?
Alien X is banned, which is the only one that survived there earlier. You mean to tell me that Ben will willingly destroy himself (and Shazam) in order to destroy us? Right, because his boy scout actions will TOTALLY let him destroy a partner of his (that he doesn't even know) and be fine with that? Mhm.
Eon
That would only work to my advantage. I consider basic knowledge to be a lot more specific than that but even so a composite Ben includes Eon. Here's a quick bio C/P'd from the wiki:
"Eon is an inter-dimensional timeline traveler and one of Ben's major adversaries. He is the arch-enemy of Professor Paradox, as well as an alternate and evil version of Ben. He first appeared in Ben 10: Race Against Time."......" Underneath his helmet, Eon's unmasked face is identical to that of Ultimate Ben 10,000 due to the fact that he is another adult version of Ben."
And if you didn't know he tried to destroy Ben Prime's universe because he thwarted his plan 6 years ago. (This included him destroying himself and his comrades) So him destroying someone he thought he was Vilgax, the person who's repeatedly harmed Ben and his family isn't far-fetched at all. It's very likely to happen.
"composite Ben includes Eon." No... It doesn't... composite means from a single universe. Not an alternate reality, especially because in Ben's own universe Ben 10,000 already exists. You have to prove that regular, standard-Earth Ben would willingly risk his own life to destroy a giant green walking planet destroyer.
There's a reason that most tourneys have "composite Iron Man" different from "Ultimate Iron Man (1610)" or other examples such as that.
Time Manip
The one tourney it's banned in there's no need to ban it in, lel
Clockwork has time manipulation, and naturally isn't very fast. He obviously has slowed time for himself. And the intensity of the time manip depends on how much he wants it to be. Like here. He ages a piece of wood to dust. Something that take hundreds of years done in seconds:
I understand that it's time manipulation, but this feat doesn't work to your advantage. He's speeding up an item's natural process, something which would be completely and utterly useless in this fight. Speeding an item's age up =/= slowing down time.
Le Rest of It
And how is Ben going to get hit? When he's much faster?
You have yet to prove sufficient evidence of Clockwork slowing down time on the level to put lightspeedsters out of commission for a good while.
And Clockwork has tanked much worse. That part only exists for comical relief.
*yawns*
I await the feats to prove your statements, unless "comical relief" is your best attempt at hiding Clockwork's blunt force problem.
Quasar Counters
None that he gave me, but a couple of no-brainers:
And does the Anihilaarg currently reside in the Plumber facility? No it doesn't. But does that matter? No. You see Ben using his Time-Cycle is handy. He can teleport to that specific instance in time to retrieve the Anihilaarg to use.
We still await feats for your Time-Cycle.
Here's all the information on the Anihilaarg you need C/P'd from the wiki:
"When the Anihilaarg is activated, upon detonation, it will either create or destroy an entire universe; if the Anihilaarg is activated in a timeless place where no universe exists yet, then it will create an entire new universe, but if there is already a universe there, then the Anihilaarg will instead wipe all of that universe out."
So yes, the Anihilaarg can destroy as well as create a new universe. But since there is a universe it should destroy it. Giving Feedback/Clockwork the ability to use it on you guys.
Now we're using Wikis?! C'mon now man, I know you're better than this.
Wikis are an unreliable source.
We need feats.
Ben would kill himself in the process, so he's not going to be bringing it in.
As does Clockwork. He has the ability to control how intense his rays are. And his rays are even more intense considering his Galvanic Mechamorph amp that was given to him making him a lot stronger. And he also has lightspeed furthering my point,
Psst... we still need feats...
I can't believe that's all the counters. Captain Marvel didn't have much to counter. Alright, let's get to actually arguing:
Teamwork
This section is rather simple. We have perfect teamwork. You have a 10 year old kid with a watch that allows him to turn into aliens and another 10 year old kid that says "Shazam!" We have an unstoppable, planet destroying rage monster and a dual-bracelet energy manipulating badass.
Your team just met. Our team will work in perfect sync with each other. Do you see where I'm going with this? While you presume to "manipulate time" with feats that work backwards on your end, we are prepared to back up our arguments but also will work in harmony.
Time Manipulation
@revan2424's wanting to slow down time in waves is admirable, albeit futile on multiple ends. He hasn't shown the feats to back up his claims that would allow for a level of time-slow shenanigans to slow down 2 lightspeedsters. Apart from that, while he's doing this, he fails to acknowledge that he's also slowing down his partner. This is where the advantage of perfect teamwork comes in handy; while we compliment each other's moves your team is fumbling on itself and wondering "Who is this other guy, what do I do with him," etc. See where I'm going? Not to mention that Hulk is almost a perfect counter to any time shenanigans:
Tis so. Just like he did in Incredible Hulk #135, Hulk will punch through a distortion in time. That's what a time storm (and your little time waves) are; distortions in the natural order of time. Something Hulk has shown to be able to counter. Of course, this is only a massive "what-if" scenario, because thus far your feats have been massively disappointing.
Anihilaarg In-Character
There's a lot of debacle between us about Ben using the Anihilaarg. I remember the show very well from a couple years back, and Ben is a hardcore boy scout. You're trying to diss on Quasar for "not attacking a 10yr old" but Ben wouldn't willingly DESTROY EVERYTHING HE KNOWS just to win a fight, especially given the fact that he was whining about in your video too.
Speaking of In-Character, you keep bringing up Clockwork and Feedback. Are those regular aliens of his? He has all his watches here, and he's facing down a giant brute. Wouldn't someone like Four Arms, Humongosaur, or like... Diamondhead be more appropriate? hint: the answer is yes.
While we base our debate on things that happen in-character (i.e thunder-clapping), you want Ben to transform into an alien that thus far has been utterly useless. He has aliens that would be a lot more in-character aliens for facing down giant brutes (I mean almost all his aliens lose anyways, but still). Speaking of giant brutes, I think it's time I start arguing for one:
Gamma Bursts
At the end of World War Hulk we saw our hero go from savage to damn BEAST. You've seen (probably) this infamous feat of a single footstep endangering the entire planet, but I use it for a better purpose. Before he took that footstep, WBH was letting off enough gamma energy to endanger the buildings around him for miles on end. THEN he took the footstep. What's my point? My point is that, as @krleavenger said, these have the potential to go planetary. I'm going to save that for my next post, but remember to keep these in mind when making your strategies.
Physical Superiority
Very few people in this tournament so much as hold a candlelight to Hulk in terms of physical capabilities. This portion copied/pasted from a previous CaV of mine:
The World Breaker's durability can very closely live up to the title, as seen in Incredible Hulk #611, when Skaar hits him with:
Gallery
100 trillion tons of energy (in the form of "shifting lithosphere"). What followed with research was a quick google search:
YES I STILL PLAY ROBLOX, BITE ME
100 trillion tons of tnt is the #1 (and only, lmao) answer, so I'm like meh, why not?!. The second link you see is this one here. The article talks about how a meteorite (with around the same amount of energy as Skaar's punch) ended the dinosaur era. Wish there were some way to map it... Oh well.
In a nutshell, Hulk tanked the damage that wiped out the dinosaurs. Planetary? Hell yes. I genuinely doubt that even Captain Marvel (@batman3000) will come close to replicating this damage output. If he can, then I just go higher up the feat chain. Hulk's durability is definitely enough to take some hits from you guys, which is why I'll keep my striking feats on the low. C/Pd from the same CaV as earlier:
1) Superior Striking
Infinitely weaker versions of Hulk have traded blows with powerhouses that get beaten by Savage Hulk, and fodderized by WBH:
Gallery
From Juggernaut to Hercules, all the way to Power Gem Drax, Professor Hulk's done it all! That'sritefolks. Yea, yea, most of you have seen all this.
These are people that can somewhat compare to your physical powerhouse(s) - Captain Marvel, Ultimate Humongasaur, even Way Big probably doesn't hold any light in physical comparison to World Breaker Hulk. In terms of power outage, Atomix can't put Hulk down either.
Conclusion
The Anihilaarg isn't going to be brought into this battle as much as you wish to contest it. Your want to use of Clockwork is nothing more than an attempt to increase your speed - now that Ben is lightspeed he's more likely to attempt his tougher, stronger aliens that don't have the same blunt force weakness as Clockwork.
Your time manipulation is iffy at best; we have counters to it and your feats for it thus far have been lackluster. I still hold onto the fact that he gets one-shotted because of that blunt force weakness if you proceed to try and use him.
Most of Rev's statements are all talk and no feats - nothing to back his claims up. That's why most of this post is directed towards him (and Batman didn't really post any arguments, just feats).
To finish off, I maintain and will hold that no one in this match can hold a light to World Breaker Hulk on the physical scale.
Hey mate, nice seeing you using a powerhouse for once LMAO
Thanks lol.
I am pretty sure none of these characters were as powerful then as they are in later years of Post-Crisis continuity. Espeically Superman who has gone through two upgrades in power since his death and based on the art, this happened before.
For sure.
Anyway, it is a high end feat in my opinion and I don't think Shazam is as strong as the MMH, even less MMH + Superman + Aquaman + Elongated Man.
I believe it had something more so to do with magic. However it's debatable that he is stronger or as strong as MMH. He's at least close to Superman.
I have two problems with that scan. One, how could I calculate it? If I can't that is just one of those crazy feats with zero context and explanation, like Superman closing reality hole with heat vision or Hercules lifting Heavens. Two, it's not canon. I don't remember the name of the story but I know it is not canon. I will try to find evidence later but still even if it is, we can't calculate that feat and Shazam never consistently punched so hard to create a black hole.
Fair enough.
Ok I see it is another travel speed feat but it is impressive I guess considering the fact that had a conversation plus they were changing directions very fast. The problem is, at the time this comic came out, Wally was afraid of replacing Barry and restrained himself and his speed. He was holding back a lot and I don't remember him ever going faster than Super Sonic until Mark Waid took over the series and introduced us to the Speed Force. Thing is, this scan actually shows us that Shazam can fly at Super Sonic speeds and easily change direction.
In that case I'm gonna start getting into why Shazam can beat or stall either character individually.
This section is rather simple. We have perfect teamwork. You have a 10 year old kid with a watch that allows him to turn into aliens and another 10 year old kid that says "Shazam!
IDK much about Ben 10. But Shazam? He was gifted his power by the all-mighty wizard Shazam who can contend with the strongest of the DC Universe. I see no reason why Ben and Billy wouldn't get along.
Apart from that, while he's doing this, he fails to acknowledge that he's also slowing down his partner.
Until Revan show the feats of this I have this to say. Why does it matter? It sure matters for you guys what with Ben using it to attack your team. He has no intention to use it against Shazam in an offensive manner. When he's done doing the damage he's done it won't have affected Billy. Billy will be at 100% (or whatever he's at after taking damage) after time is set back to normal. Again I'm not familiar with Ben 10 so this remains valid as of now.
Now let's start with why Shazam has a chance here.
VS. Spectre
Gallery
Shazam on two different occasions has taken on and held his own against Spectre one of the most powerful beings in the DCU.
More Speed
Reaction:
Catches a punch from Superman while he was possessed by Eclipso. In fact he follows up with another speed feat (Travel/Combat) by...Flies Superman from California to an iceberg.
Another combat feat:
Attacks Superman before he can react
More Strength/Power
Gallery
Sorry order goes 1,3,2.
Had the potential to kill Superman with his lighting.
Holds open Guy Gardner's energy construct.
More Physicals
Superman and Shazam are fighting because Shazam thinks he's fighting Black Adam while Clark thinks he's fighting Cyborg Superman. Shazam takes what Superman dishes out.
Shazam is a match for both WWH and Quasar. With Ben 10 in the mix and nothing really stopping them from being a decent team I'm sure our team can win this. Physically Billy's a beast and can definetly hang but the main problem for your team is magic and overall power as shown above. @krleavenger Your move :)
@revan2424:@supremegeneration:@batman3000: I see some nice posts there. However I have to inform you guys we need to step up our game when it comes to how much time we need to finish our posts. @blackestnight93 said everyone has 11 days to finish the first round so we have to post as fast as we can.
Rebuttal
Mostly I will counter what my opponents posts. Although I see my teammate already countered pretty much almost every part of argument for Ben so unless I have something to say myself for those points already countered, they will be ignored or I might just say how @supremegeneration already countered it. So I will spend more time countering @batman3000's arguments for Shazam while at the same time countering some points made by @revan2424 my teammate left out.
Countering Revan2424's Argument
I've already addressed why exactly Ben would want to bring the Anihilaarg to this battle. But you want proof that the plumbers "has" it? Please refer to the episode "Mud is thicker than water". That's exactly where it is. You can see here that it's in the Plumber facility:
(10:40)
And does the Anihilaarg currently reside in the Plumber facility? No it doesn't. But does that matter? No. You see Ben using his Time-Cycle is handy. He can teleport to that specific instance in time to retrieve the Anihilaarg to use.
Thanks for providing evidence.
Here's all the information on the Anihilaarg you need C/P'd from the wiki:
"When the Anihilaarg is activated, upon detonation, it will either create or destroy an entire universe; if the Anihilaarg is activated in a timeless place where no universe exists yet, then it will create an entire new universe, but if there is already a universe there, then the Anihilaarg will instead wipe all of that universe out."
So yes, the Anihilaarg can destroy as well as create a new universe. But since there is a universe it should destroy it. Giving Feedback/Clockwork the ability to use it on you guys.
Usually I will never trust wiki but sense I have on screen statement and the feat of Anihilaarg can destroy the Universe than I will take it as a factor.
I really don't see how cosmic awareness will help you at all. Dick Rider and Wendell both had previous encounters with Ego so they'd know him, Ben is from a totally different universe.
Yes Nova's name is Richard but his nickname is Rich, not Dick. But going back to the topic, they both encountered Ego. So what? Nova pretty much has zero info on him. He was able to beat him but he could not beat him now. Quasar could beat him by draining him. He had zero knowledge on him as well. Cosmic Awareness has nothing to do with that. Why do you think Rich needed Wendell's help in the first place? He did not know how to defeat a being who can tank blasts from most powerful Heralds ever. Neither did Wendell beat Ego in a fight He absorbed him, something Rich could not do because of lack of experience with using Quantum Bands. He used pure force and distraction. Cosmic Awareness has limits but it is not as limited as you are stating.
In fact when confronted with extra-dimensional forces he weakens, and his cosmic awareness doesn't allow him to detect powers of extra-dimensional beings:
Wendell did not have Cosmic Awareness at the time. He gained Cosmic Awareness when he took the form of pure energy after Annihilation but he lost it during Realm of Kings when he became human again and started to wear Quantum Bands again as we saw him during Thanos Imperative. So those are two different versions. Good for me I'm actually allowed to use both versions as one. The scan you are posting happened during Wendell's earlier years when he was not as nearly as experienced as he is now. There is literally no reason as to why Wendell wont be capable of manipulating Ben's energy. He projected energy of the Phoenix back at the Sorcerer who was controlling her, making her kill Wendell and he was still powerful enough to redirect her blast.
And Phoenix is actually Extra Dimensional Entity, connected with the source of the Multiverse. Sure here she was not as nearly as powerful but it shows how Wendell can manipulate more than just Cosmic and Solar Energies and energies of EMS.
Quasar's energy shouldn't even touch Ben or his watch because of the mana that his cousin Gwen endowed him with.
That is NLF. Mana does not have unlimited capabilities. Unless I see feats of mana negating the force of someone as powerful as Quasar or providing some context or logical evidence as to why it would work, mana argument is invalid really.
All that's in Ben's watch is DNA from millions of aliens. So you're telling me that Quasar can detect billions of strands of dna from millions of aliens while all the while determining what they do and how to stop them. And from all 8 watches all the while fighting. Please prove it. Quasar has never done anything on that scale with his cosmic awareness. And prove Wendell's cosmic awareness works on beings from different multiverses.
By rules of Comic Vine the fight takes place in Neutral Universe which means any argument we want to provide based on Universes stuff are totally Valid. How can Eternity fight Mandrakk? By the logic he can't which is why that rule on Vine exists. Cosmic Awareness should work on Ben because the fight takes place in Neutral Multiverse and Wendell told Rich to preform a tactic not only he never used before but he never tried it and he never though it is possible or it is an option. It is not like he did some research on Egi before coming to the scene to help Rich. He just knew stuff and to be honest, an information is quite simple or at least NOT THAT COMPLEXED. He told him how to beat him right at the time he came. As many aliens as Ben has, well I already showed Wendell operating on span of nanoseconds when it comes to preforming a feat or just calculating stuff. How about more modern showing from Thanos Imperative.
He drew power from the Annihilators to create constructs in span of nanoseconds. To make this even more impressive, he did that to the likes of Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill and he did that without them even noticing it which is impressive considering the fact that Surfer has Cosmic Awareness as well.
Why would he do this again? He's fighting against a 10 year old boy. In fact, why would Wendell fight at all? He's fighting against 2, 10 year olds. Wendell barely like to fight against regular people. He often tries to be diplomatic in fights trying to prevent violence with mass murderers. He'd never ever attack a child.
This is battle forum. Everyone fights at their best. Even tho we have to go in character and can't go with arguments like Surfer creating a black hole in someone's head to absorb their brain, we still fight. Argument on Wendell not wanting to fight does not work. If that would be the chase, we would not even use characters like Silver Surfer or Martian Manhunter on battle forums at all. While In Character rule is there, Wendell has to fight.
So he can go teleport to go get it? That seems unlike for him to even try and do it.
Unless Ben proved he can teleport to any plane of existence than no he can't as Wendell will teleport it to the Quantum Zone, not just any plane of existence. I get that things like Quantum Zone do not exist in Ben 10 Universe but I know there are more planes of existence that exist in his Universe. If Ben can enter in all of them with his standard equipment and powers than he wont be able to got his weapon back. And why I say standard when Ben has prep and can use tech that is not standard equipment? Simple because he does not know Quasar has the ability to BFR his device, therefor he wont bring any devices to teleport to other planes of existence. Why would he? He does not know he will need them.
Also I think you are forgetting one important detail. Despite all the reasons I mentioned above which show why Ben will not get his weapon back after it gets BFRed, the main reason why is because he wont have time or chance. He has to deal with unstoppable planet busting tank with light speed and Silver Surfer level character with even better energy manipulation and Silver Surfer himself.
No, he's inferior to Alien-X in every way.
So "no" stands for "no he is inferior so I can use him" or "no" like "no I can't use him"? Still if he is inferior you will have to show some feats to prove why he is so special yet not so special to come close to Thanos level, even less on his level or above, because if you do, Atomic-X is not allowed to be used and if he is not, you have to prove why he is a fact and wont be obliterated by our team.
As does Clockwork. He has the ability to control how intense his rays are. And his rays are even more intense considering his Galvanic Mechamorph amp that was given to him making him a lot stronger. And he also has lightspeed furthering my point,
Lightspeed? Based on what? What I saw is around MCU Quicksilver Speed. Even if he has light speed, so does our team and considering the fact that Wendell used energy from all of the Annihilators to create constructs which is not an easy feat by any means, I could even say the level that he operates is faster than light. Even if you prove Clockwork or any other alien has the speed of light (and I am really looking forward to that evidence), speed is not the only thing that should be equalized. You still have to stop a giant green tank and top tier energy manipulator with vast versatility and even greater durability and damage output than top powerhouses of Marvel.
You gotta prove why Wendell will even attack Ben
I don't have to. Rules insist on characters fighting at peak of their abilities.
You have to prove Wendell's abilities can pierce Ben's mana
I have to see how effective mana is or to see a reason as to why it will work. Otherwise it is just NLF.
Even if you did get to attack ben Feedback could absorb it
I am pretty sure someone who could absorb or redirect an attack from Phoenix can manipulate his own energy better than somebody else. Considering the fact how Silver Surfer is top tier energy manipulator, he could not beat Ego while Wendell just absorbed it. Yes you heard me, he absorbed Ego, a being more powerful than pretty much any Herald.
Add to the fact that Wendell unleashes attacks that can hurt beings like Silver Surfer who dwarfs durability of every alien you have that is allowed. Unless you provide some evidence.
Countering Batman3000's Argument
Ok when it comes to countering an argument for Shazam, I will yet again ignore any argument that is not directed towards me but my teammate unless I have to reply to that for some other reasons but when it comes to an argument against the Hulk himself or some topic brought down by my teammate, I will ignore it. I will focus on argument against Quasar, some stuff I can't agree with and scans for Shazam.
I believe it had something more so to do with magic. However it's debatable that he is stronger or as strong as MMH. He's at least close to Superman.
I don't know what it has to do with magic so I don't know the context of the scan. I don't know how the feat is valid in anyway. Yes Shazam is close to Superman but he is not his equal by all means. And that is saying something because he can give him a fight in Pre-Flashpoint Universe and in Pre-Flashpoint DC Universe, Superman never lifted the planet alone. Also I remember where that Black Hole feat you mentioned on your first post came from. It is from 4 issue mini-series titled Shazam: Monster Society of Evil written by Jeff Smith and came out on April 2007 and it was finished on September 2007. Just wanted to bring that up, because that series is not canon as I said on my first post and I think my argument will be stronger if I actually give a name of the issue. Anyway, moving on...
Shazam on two different occasions has taken on and held his own against Spectre one of the most powerful beings in the DCU.
I actually see Shazam fighting Spectre only on one scan. I can't see Shazam in your second scan and I can't see what Spectre is talking about. It is way to blurry. Either way, Spectre may be one of the most powerful beings in the DC Multiverse but he has a lot of weaker incarnations with limited powers and what not. Add to the fact that pretty much every Cosmic Entity or greater abstracts in Marvel and DC are extreme jobbers when they are facing Earthbound heroes or even the likes of more cosmic heroes like Silver Surfer or Kyle Rayner. I mean, Thor faced Galactus, Surtur, Hela and Odin on various occassions and he could give them a fight or at least be more than a simple fly. Those feats did not make Thor any different that what he is what he always will be, a Herald level character operating as Superman level powerhouse consistently, just like that feat does not make Shazam any more than he already is, a guy with Strength, Speed and Durability that can be comparable yet extremely below Superman in any way while having versatility and lightning that is not a huge factor. I'll get more into that later but the main point of this discussion is to prove how the fight against the Spectre, if it is without any context, is nothing more than a huge outlier. Or it may have something to do with magic as Spectre is not only a huge jobber but he suffers from various weaknesses that work for plot purposes. Shazam has magic of Zeus, it is quite possible it affected Spectre which does not mean it will affect planet busting tank or energy manipulator on the same level of power as Silver Surfer.
Catches a punch from Superman while he was possessed by Eclipso. In fact he follows up with another speed feat (Travel/Combat) by...
You know I think because your character is a powerhouse mostly you will have to debate against my partner as Ben has some gadgets that may or may not work but if they do work, Quasar's versatility is the perfect counter for them. While that may be the chase, I will focus on some scans that are lacking some context that my partner may or may not be aware of but I will debunk them anyway considering the fact that I read every single comic that has a fight between Superman and Shazam and not just fight but every type of contest like arm wrestling or claims how Shazam is his equal or whatever, I read all of them, from New 52, Post-Crisis and even all the way back before Crisis on Infinite Earths and I am aware of left out context when it comes to Shazam's fights with Superman and people somehow trying to claim they are truly equals while they are truly not. Anyway, the instance you just showed happened in Superman vol. 2 #216 where Superman, as you claimed yourself was possessed by Eclipso. For some reason people think because Eclipso has no morals, it was Superman fighting evenly with Shazam head on. What they always forget to mention is statement from Eclipso himself, where he clearly said he does not want to hurt or kill Shazam. He uses magic and he needs a magical host. He wanted to possess Billy so he will have a powerful host with magical powers.
In the end, pretty much everyone who uses Shazam in debates uses feats from this issue and while those are decent feats, they are not as nearly as impressive as people think they are. Eclipso wanted to possess Billy and he himself said he does not want to kill him and logically if you want to possess someone you don't want his body to be damaged, at least not take any significant damage.
Flies Superman from California to an iceberg.
Again, cool feat. It shows Shazam is at least low level powerhouse. But it is not good enough of a speed feat to be comparable to Quasar. I'll let my partner debate for the Hulk vs Shazam. I'll leave it there.
Attacks Superman before he can react.
That instance happened in Superman/Batman #4 and there is some context left out. One of which is the fact that Superman was caught off guard and he did not expect the blitz or did he knew Shazam is even there. That wont happen to someone as fast as Wendell. The other thing people are forgetting is, Superman was weakened by Kryptonite Meteor, making this feat not as nearly as impressive as it looks on panel.
Actually I don't remember any good speed feats for Shazam either. Take a look at the same fight that happen in issue 216 of Superman.
He said he could be in Metropolis and make it look like a nuke is nothing and talking shit about killing people, all in blink of an eye. And he did not say in blink of an eye, but Shazam's eye himself. "In the blink of even your eye...". Shazam clearly has super human speed, but Superman dwarfs his speed as comparing the two will be like comparing a regular human to a Quicksilver. And this statement is actually valid considering the fact that Shazam has no feats to prove he come close to moving, fighting, reacting or travelling on the same level of speed as Superman, at least not without them having some context, being only travelling speed or just being inconsistent. UNLESS of course you prove I'm wrong.
Had the potential to kill Superman with his lighting.
I think you missed one part of your scan which clearly stated Superman's iconic weakness to magic. It is not that he is vulnerable to magic but his durability does not give him protection against it. Here check it out, it is actually a part of your own scan.
People always ignore this part for some reason, claiming how Shazam's lightning is truly powerful enough to kill Superman while in truth it is magical attack, something Superman just can't tank without damage. That is actually the same reason why Shazam pretty much two-shotted Superman during JLA #29 as he himself implied "I got lucky, and he's vulnerable to magic".
Gallery
Overall the only reason why Shazam gives Superman a fight is because of Superman always holding back (not only it is a common thing to know but Superman knows he is fighting a 10 year old boy) and because of his vulnerability to magic, something Quasar does not have. Neither does the Hulk but I won't go any further. I'll let my partner debate for the Green Goliath.
Holds open Guy Gardner's energy construct.
Good feat but I don't find it any usefull. Not trying to lowball Shazam, but he is a character below Superman while I'm using a character that operates on the same level as Silver Surfer.
Superman and Shazam are fighting because Shazam thinks he's fighting Black Adam while Clark thinks he's fighting Cyborg Superman. Shazam takes what Superman dishes out.
The fight happened in Superman vol. 2 #102 and it is probably the only fight where Superman really fights against Shazam. The problem is, that issue came out during 1995 before Superman's training with Mongul II. That training made him a powerhouse he is today, on the same league as Hulk and Thor. However before he had his training (which actually made him stronger because he learned how to fight plus it removed his mental blocks which were limiting his powers big time), he was not really a planetary threat and overall weaker than Hulk and Thor based on showing. While he still had impressive speed, his strength and durability was WAY below then than it is now and I don't think the speed argument actually works here because we don't know how fast they were fighting.
That is another weird scan mate. Why that beam did not trap Superman? It either means Shazam has some kind of resistance to it or it is a different type of beam that is not there to trap it's target in a crystal but rather just take it down. It is either different beam or there is some context to it, like Shazam probably having some resistance against it but just because it trapped Superman and it did not trap Shazam does not prove his durability at all, for obvious reasons.
On that's it. I'm not writing any summary. I just don't know what to say besides the fact that I pretty much countered Ben's strategy and Billy's feats. I disagree with Batman3000's statement on Shazam giving any problems to Quasar and I am sure my partner can prove the same for the Hulk. I know I did not post a lot of scans but in truth I don't see the reason why. Unless you don't believe Quasar consistently has FTL and nanosecond speed, durability great enough to no-sell super nova, massive energy absorption and damage output great enough to hurt the likes of Silver Surfer, then sure I will provide more scans to prove the consistency but so far I showed enough scans to at least introduce Quasar's power level and I countered most feats for Shazam and I showed versatility of my character to counter Ben's strategy. This may sound like the summary actually but either way, let's start round 3 shall we?
Alien X is banned, which is the only one that survived there earlier. You mean to tell me that Ben will willingly destroy himself (and Shazam) in order to destroy us? Right, because his boy scout actions will TOTALLY let him destroy a partner of his (that he doesn't even know) and be fine with that? Mhm.
No. As you can see from the first video provided when redirecting the energy Feedback didn't hurt himself. Only the Chronosapien targeted was destroyed (And his lackeys)
And judging by the fact that it was green (As is some of the energy that Feedback absorbs is) It's absorbing it then pushing it back out. It's more of a hax attack.
Eon:
No... It doesn't... composite means from a single universe. Not an alternate reality, especially because in Ben's own universe Ben 10,000 already exists.
Ben 10k is an alternate universe, what are you talking about? And omniverse Ben is composite so there would be no point in making him composite if he already is. And in the history of the Ben 10 all timelines were one until they diverged. So he is included.
Time Manipulation:
The one tourney it's banned in there's no need to ban it in, lel
¿Que?
I understand that it's time manipulation, but this feat doesn't work to your advantage. He's speeding up an item's natural process, something which would be completely and utterly useless in this fight. Speeding an item's age up =/= slowing down time.
No you don't understand. That is his ability. Clockwork is speeding himself up, ie slowing time down. It's one in the same. Just as he does time manip on other things he does it on himself. Like this:
He sent Nega-Ben back in time. It's all the same, speeding it up, slowing it down. Instead of doing it on other's he's doing it to himself. All feats on others are compatible to him.
Misc. Counters:
I await the feats to prove your statements, unless "comical relief" is your best attempt at hiding Clockwork's blunt force problem.
Okay, how about no-selling a hit from Exo-Skull. After Exo-Skull's dwarf star amp.
Now we're using Wikis?! C'mon now man, I know you're better than this.
Wikis are an unreliable source.
We need feats.
It was a point of reference. I'd already given feats. What are you talking about? I clearly gave a video where the anihilaarg destroyed a universe. @krleavenger knew that just fine.
It seems that you @supremegeneration are grossly informed even when I give things that clearly show what's happened. Not only do you not know when feats are given, you also try to dodge them pretending that they don't exist.
wanting to slow down time in waves is admirable, albeit futile on multiple ends. He hasn't shown the feats to back up his claims that would allow for a level of time-slow shenanigans to slow down 2 lightspeedsters
Which includes myself being a FTLer. I'd be faster than the both of you because I'm also FTL. Hulk is a non-factor when it comes to tagging Ben. We're both FTL don't you get that? So even slowing time just a little will make Ben immensely faster than Hulk. Only Quasar has hope in that department.
Apart from that, while he's doing this, he fails to acknowledge that he's also slowing down his partner
Or speeding myself up. It's all relative.
This is where the advantage of perfect teamwork comes in handy; while we compliment each other's moves your team is fumbling on itself and wondering "Who is this other guy, what do I do with him,"
I take it you don't know we have prep. We can easily get to know each other. Formu;ate our plans, share a Pina Colada.
Not to mention that Hulk is almost a perfect counter to any time shenanigans
Punching a Timestorm (Which doesn't even make sense lol.) and stopping someone from affecting time on themselves aren't really comparable.
There's a lot of debacle between us about Ben using the Anihilaarg. I remember the show very well from a couple years back, and Ben is a hardcore boy scout
It's painfully obvious you haven't watched the show in 10 years. You obviously know nothing about current Ben.
You're trying to diss on Quasar for "not attacking a 10yr old" but Ben wouldn't willingly DESTROY EVERYTHING HE KNOWS just to win a fight, especially given the fact that he was whining about in your video too.
lol wut? Who was whining? Am I missing something. And you didn't watch the video. Because it was a beam. Not an explosion.
Speaking of In-Character, you keep bringing up Clockwork and Feedback. Are those regular aliens of his?
Here's that part that makes it painfully obvious you know nothing about Ben from the last decade. Yes they are "regular aliens" What even constitutes that?
He has all his watches here, and he's facing down a giant brute. Wouldn't someone like Four Arms, Humongosaur, or like... Diamondhead be more appropriate
But I thought Ben believed it was Vilgax? Because he's had his ass handed too him with the strong guys way too much by Vilgax to want to use him. Ben's much more mature and strategic. He won't use the big guys if he thinks he's dealing with Vilgax.
Counter Conclusions:
The Anihilaarg isn't going to be brought into this battle as much as you wish to contest it. Your want to use of Clockwork is nothing more than an attempt to increase your speed - now that Ben is lightspeed he's more likely to attempt his tougher, stronger aliens that don't have the same blunt force weakness as Clockwork.
You lack of knowledge on my character is blatantly obvious. And why would Ben attempt a strong alien because he's lightspeed?
Most of Rev's statements are all talk and no feats - nothing to back his claims up. That's why most of this post is directed towards him
And you've yet to debunk any of my feats. Just pester for more.
Krle Counters:
Usually I will never trust wiki but sense I have on screen statement and the feat of Anihilaarg can destroy the Universe than I will take it as a factor
Thanks. If only SG would do so.
So what? Nova pretty much has zero info on him. He was able to beat him but he could not beat him now. Quasar could beat him by draining him. He had zero knowledge on him as well. Cosmic Awareness has nothing to do with that. Why do you think Rich needed Wendell's help in the first place? He did not know how to defeat a being who can tank blasts from most powerful Heralds ever. Neither did Wendell beat Ego in a fight He absorbed him, something Rich could not do because of lack of experience with using Quantum Bands. He used pure force and distraction. Cosmic Awareness has limits but it is not as limited as you are stating.
Fair enough. But you've yet to prove Cosmic Awareness will work on the scale that you presume.
There is literally no reason as to why Wendell wont be capable of manipulating Ben's energy. He projected energy of the Phoenix back at the Sorcerer who was controlling her, making her kill Wendell and he was still powerful enough to redirect her blast.
Not only was the Sorcerer being used, but Phoenix is still a being within the Marvel multiverse. But I won't delve into that.
In that same issue Quasar flaunts his weakness to magic and his inability to manipulate magic. And what do you think mana is? Magic.
That is NLF. Mana does not have unlimited capabilities. Unless I see feats of mana negating the force of someone as powerful as Quasar or providing some context or logical evidence as to why it would work, mana argument is invalid really.
The majority of the time when someone calls NFL its wrong. This is that majority. I said Quasar can't manipulate it because he can't manipulate magic.
By rules of Comic Vine the fight takes place in Neutral Universe which means any argument we want to provide based on Universes stuff are totally Valid. How can Eternity fight Mandrakk? By the logic he can't which is why that rule on Vine exists.
CaV's are partially exempt from this in some ways. That's why clear rules must be outlined and why DBZ characters can fight comic characters. They're exempt.
Cosmic Awareness should work on Ben because the fight takes place in Neutral Multiverse and Wendell told Rich to preform a tactic not only he never used before but he never tried it and he never though it is possible or it is an option
But does it work in separate universes? Yes or no? Has he ever used it on beings that don't follow his physics?
As many aliens as Ben has, well I already showed Wendell operating on span of nanoseconds when it comes to preforming a feat or just calculating stuff. How about more modern showing from Thanos Imperative
Has he ever done anything like that on that scale yes or no? Has he detected millions upon billions of things AND decoded it while fighting? It's fairly simple really.
This is battle forum. Everyone fights at their best. Even tho we have to go in character and can't go with arguments like Surfer creating a black hole in someone's head to absorb their brain, we still fight. Argument on Wendell not wanting to fight does not work. If that would be the chase, we would not even use characters like Silver Surfer or Martian Manhunter on battle forums at all. While In Character rule is there, Wendell has to fight.
No. CaV's have their own set of rules. They don't always follow that outline. He still has morals and still we act accordingly. You can't just pretend that the big roadblock isn't there. And that is a horrible analogy.
Unless Ben proved he can teleport to any plane of existence than no he can't as Wendell will teleport it to the Quantum Zone, not just any plane of existence. I get that things like Quantum Zone do not exist in Ben 10 Universe but I know there are more planes of existence that exist in his Universe. If Ben can enter in all of them with his standard equipment and powers than he wont be able to got his weapon back. And why I say standard when Ben has prep and can use tech that is not standard equipment? Simple because he does not know Quasar has the ability to BFR his device, therefor he wont bring any devices to teleport to other planes of existence. Why would he? He does not know he will need them.
But why would it be BFR'd? How would Wendell know when to BFR that device. And can you actually provide a scan of him wanting BFR'ng that? And Ben has prior knowledge. He'll want to bring some extra toys for a guy that powerful and "Vilgax".
So "no" stands for "no he is inferior so I can use him" or "no" like "no I can't use him"? Still if he is inferior you will have to show some feats to prove why he is so special yet not so special to come close to Thanos level, even less on his level or above, because if you do, Atomic-X is not allowed to be used and if he is not, you have to prove why he is a fact and wont be obliterated by our team.
Both. I just won't use him.
Lightspeed? Based on what? What I saw is around MCU Quicksilver Speed. Even if he has light speed, so does our team and considering the fact that Wendell used energy from all of the Annihilators to create constructs which is not an easy feat by any means, I could even say the level that he operates is faster than light. Even if you prove Clockwork or any other alien has the speed of light (and I am really looking forward to that evidence), speed is not the only thing that should be equalized. You still have to stop a giant green tank and top tier energy manipulator with vast versatility and even greater durability and damage output than top powerhouses of Marvel.
I don't have to prove him FTL. That's my perk. Did you forget? Lightspeed + Time Manipulation was always my strategy. That's an important detail in this debate and not something that should be forgotten so easy.
I don't have to. Rules insist on characters fighting at peak of their abilities.
I don't see how that equals him attacking a child. And I don't remember that being outlined in the battles forum rules.
I have to see how effective mana is or to see a reason as to why it will work. Otherwise it is just NLF.
It's a limitation on Quasar. Not a NLF. You didn't even call that one right.
I am pretty sure someone who could absorb or redirect an attack from Phoenix can manipulate his own energy better than somebody else. Considering the fact how Silver Surfer is top tier energy manipulator, he could not beat Ego while Wendell just absorbed it. Yes you heard me, he absorbed Ego, a being more powerful than pretty much any Herald.
I really hope you aren't comparing the strength of Ego, a planet, to the power of the universe busting attack that Feedback contained.
Conclusions:
I'm pretty sure SG doesn't even know who he's debating against. He has 0 knowledge on his opponent]
Quasar can't manipulate magic
Feedback has better absorption capabilities than Quasar
Lol you know I get these things up on the same day man.
@revan2424@batman3000 Lezaroll. Formatting'll be a bit all over the place, so that's on me.
Counterz
Me 'ignoring' Information
No. As you can see from the first video provided when redirecting the energy Feedback didn't hurt himself. Only the Chronosapien targeted was destroyed (And his lackeys)
And judging by the fact that it was green (As is some of the energy that Feedback absorbs is) It's absorbing it then pushing it back out. It's more of a hax attack.
I can take responsibility for forgetting this one, I forgot about the openers. I was writing a lot...
Okay, how about no-selling a hit from Exo-Skull. After Exo-Skull's dwarf star amp.
Exo-Skull looks tough, I can accept that. About the alien earlier, the 'comical relief,' was that Clockwork pre- or post- gala-something Amp? Is this pre or post?
EDIT: I just saw the video. He didn't no-sell anything, he caught his run. Impressive, but not as impressive as you make it out to be. I'm also going to guess that Blue Clockwork is post-galathingy amp.
It was a point of reference. I'd already given feats. What are you talking about? I clearly gave a video where the anihilaarg destroyed a universe. @krleavenger knew that just fine.
It seems that you @supremegeneration are grossly informed even when I give things that clearly show what's happened. Not only do you not know when feats are given, you also try to dodge them pretending that they don't exist.
I feel like there was a point of major misunderstanding here. I'm aware that the Anihilaarg can destroy a universe, what I meant to prove with pointing out that the source was a Wiki was that there were no feats to show it could create a universe.
I take it you don't know we have prep. We can easily get to know each other. Formu;ate our plans, share a Pina Colada.
I take responsibility for this one as well. I keep forgetting b/c Batman3000/Shazam posts after you and doesn't mention prep.
Ben 10,000/Eon
Ben 10k is an alternate universe, what are you talking about? And omniverse Ben is composite so there would be no point in making him composite if he already is. And in the history of the Ben 10 all timelines were one until they diverged. So he is included.
You just said Ben 10,000 is an alternate universe. I'm sure you meant to saw timeline, so I'll assume you did. My point is that in the Ben 10 universe, because of timeline divergence or however it worked (I only watched the original series through Ultimate Alien), there would be two Ben 10,000's. That doesn't work. Eon is an alternate version, ergo he is not included in composite.
Time Manip
¿Que?
No importa, no es importante. No te preocupes, amigo. Estamos bien aqui.
No you don't understand. That is his ability. Clockwork is speeding himself up, ie slowing time down. It's one in the same. Just as he does time manip on other things he does it on himself. Like this:
He sent Nega-Ben back in time. It's all the same, speeding it up, slowing it down. Instead of doing it on other's he's doing it to himself. All feats on others are compatible to him.
Now I can accept it! Sorry if I in any way seemed rude, but I've learned the hard way to ask for feats when not provided.
However, they're aberrations in time, so theoretically Hulk could punch through them like he did the storm.
Speed Issue
Which includes myself being a FTLer. I'd be faster than the both of you because I'm also FTL. Hulk is a non-factor when it comes to tagging Ben. We're both FTL don't you get that? So even slowing time just a little will make Ben immensely faster than Hulk. Only Quasar has hope in that department.
I under that we're both FTL, what I'm trying to say is that so far you've only shown some time manipulation but that it's not on enough to slow us down significantly. Hulk might end up slower, but it's nowhere near enough to say that he won't tag Ben. Ben won't be that much faster because Clockwork's abilities aren't that powerful. Not to mention that I've already countered this issue with both city-level gamma rays (the feats till this point) and the thunderclap. I even showed the scan of Hulk stepping on the ground and breaking the entire eastern seaboard. These are three immensely powerful AoE blasts that will take more than just blunt force durability to survive.
Mine Own Confusion
Or speeding myself up. It's all relative.
Punching a Timestorm (Which doesn't even make sense lol.) and stopping someone from affecting time on themselves aren't really comparable.
Now I'm confused. Clockwork's abilities: does he speed himself up or slow everything else down? Or is it both?
Jeez ran outta fancy-nancy titles
It's painfully obvious you haven't watched the show in 10 years. You obviously know nothing about current Ben.
You assumed I did? I didn't even mention any current aliens; I only watched up to Ultimate Alien. But the numbers really put me at awe, lol. That show is a decade old...
lol wut? Who was whining? Am I missing something. And you didn't watch the video. Because it was a beam. Not an explosion.
Ben was whining in the video you posted. Watch it. "That's the universe! It's everything I know! It's everything there is!"
When they denied Ben the ability to use Alien X to fix the universe, he basically threw a fit to the female giant green mask thing, and she did the same to the male one. Also, I never said it was an explosion. The universe would've died either way (and using it here would theoretically mean Ben and Shazam die too).
Yes they are "regular aliens" What even constitutes that?
I meant in-character aliens. Like aliens he uses on a regular basis.
Conclusive Counters
But I thought Ben believed it was Vilgax? Because he's had his ass handed too him with the strong guys way too much by Vilgax to want to use him. Ben's much more mature and strategic. He won't use the big guys if he thinks he's dealing with Vilgax.
You lack of knowledge on my character is blatantly obvious. And why would Ben attempt a strong alien because he's lightspeed?
These two go hand-in-hand. I'm going to ignore what you assumed was my wealth of knowledge to be playful banter.
What you are having Ben do is a) be very very fast then b) make him faster. If he's so strategic, and he thinks he's fighting Vilgax, then he must know a few things.
Clockwork can't really hurt Vilgax
Vilgax has a tendency of coming back
If he's fast enough to dodge everything being thrown at him no matter what, why not just take that but also be dealing punishment in the meantime?
In one of the fights, Ben just transformed into Humangosaur and it sent Vilgax flying. He now has access to even more powerful version of Humangosaur.
I'm confused by you statement, really. Ben would want to dish the damage as hard he can, and now that he would assume that he can't be hit and that he can hit faster than ever, it would only be logical to want a strong alien.
I'm pretty sure SG doesn't even know who he's debating against. He has 0 knowledge on his opponent]
I now realize it must be personal. If I in any way insulted you, my apologies, that's just how I debate.
Vs Shazam
I believe that we can agree that the physical powerhouse of each team should go blow for blow (or blow for fall, depending on how you wish to see it) and the more versatile should battle the more versatile. If not, then just counter these anyways.
Speed (very very very short section)
Krle countered your Flash-level speed scans, which are below lightspeed, whereas Hulk is rocking legit lightspeed. This section would be longer if I had to provide scans, but since it's a perk, yipee for me!
Physicals/Damage Output
I've showed that Hulk can bust entire seaboards, has city-level gamma waves, and powerful thunderclaps. I've shown he can take planetary attacks.
Kiddy gloves off, Shazam doesn't stand a chance in a barrage of these punches. The feats shown directly contradict it. Krle's disproved all most of your scans, so now a faster, stronger, more durable powerhouse will help Quasar gang up on Ben.
Conclusion
I'm at the point where I don't really need a conclusion. Me and Krle/Quasar have a sound, in-character strategy that has got a lot of backup to it. Shazam doesn't really belong here, he's physically out-classed, and Ben would eventually go down with numbers.
@supremegeneration: No way. Batman3000 and I still did not make a final post. There is no way we will be able to make those plus the whole new round IN 3 DAYS.
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