High Tier Amalgam Tourney: Mass vs HigherPower (Open for Votes!)

Since a majority of the readers here haven't discovered the wonder that is the Hardcore Leveling Warrior webtoon, I've decided to start this off with a brief glossary of some of the important terms you'll see throughout my post. Seriously though, if you haven't checked out Hardcore Leveling Warrior, I highly encourage it. In my humble opinion, its far superior to other action Webtoon's like Tower of God and God of High School.

Lucid Adventure - a video game reality connected to the dream world through user's dreams. Originally thought to only be a virtual reality, Lucid Adventure is actually a completely separate true reality.

Personal Attribute - It is a skill randomly given at character creation. It is an attribute given regardless of classes or tribes based on an individual's Karma. All Personal Attributes are categorized into Four Types/Tiers:

• Skill/Stat - Skill Types are granted a unique skill. Stat Type increases the players stats.
• Class - allows players to get an extra Class (Mage, Warrior, Archer, Thief, etc...)
• Person - It is a type were a a particular person (or object) such as a great person, a celebrity or a hero in a myth becomes a class. This attribute allows the user to create his/her own original skill. Unlike other Personal Attributes, players with Person type Personal Attributes can create their own skills
• Transcendental - This is a type of Personal Attribute that Transcends the Laws of the game. Very few few players have this and little is known about this type.

Mana - the physical strength needed to use skills. Each entity of Lucid Adventure has its own distinctive mana. All actions are done using mana and those actions are called skills. A magician's magic, a swordsman's techniques, they all use mana.

Conceptual Magic - a spell made from the concept of someone's personal attribute usually seen with Person Type Personal Attributes. The spell takes the concept of that person's past or thing other people know about them and turns it into a spell with the Mana of their Personal Attributes.

Transcendental Skills - skills which transcend the laws of Lucid Adventure. Since this tournament hosts a shared universe that means Transcendental Skill transcend the laws of the universe. These skills are superior to all other skills, including Conceptual Magic, bypassing even conceptual level defenses.

Nightmare/Nightmarization - Nightmatization is when a being becomes infected with the Nightmare power. The power of Nightmare to come directly from Zero, the being who helped create the world of Lucid Adventure. This gives characters a substantial stat boost, regeneration, nullifies defenses, halts opponent's regeneration, cancels out all other kinds of energy, bypasses stat differences and item effects.

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Let me try to explain this with some more context from the series itself. The Hardcore Leveling Warrior series centers around a supposed virtual reality video game called Lucid Adventure. I say supposed because Lucid Adventure is actually a real world with real effects on the normal Human World. There are rules in Lucid Adventure as there are in any video game. Nightmare, is basically a glitch in the game. It's literally bypassing the rules of Lucid Adventure because it was never supposed to exist. Zero created Nightmare to destroy Lucid Adventure.

Let me give you an example. HCLW has a pair of boots that are indestructible, they cannot be destroyed. Using these boots, HCLW can run across Thorn Mountain that has thorns enchanted to pierce through anything and anyone regardless of their strength. So even durability ignoring effects can't hurt HCLW's indestructible boots.

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Well guess what? When Nightmare Light fired that magic attack at HCLW, it not only did it bypassed his Magic Immunity and shattered his 100-layer barrier, it also shattered HCLW's Indestructible boots.

Nightmare is quite literally bypassing the rules to deal direct damage to the opponent. No amount of defense, immunity or resistance can stop it.

Okay so why doesn't a Nightmare attack just one shot everyone it hits? That's simple actually, as long as the Nightmare attack's damage isn't greater than the target's Health Points (HP), they won't die. The Nightmare attack will just bypass their defenses and deal direct damage to the target's HP. Remember, Lucid Adventure functions like a video game where characters have different stats, HP and MP.

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Take for example someone with 100 HP and 50 Defense. Normally, if they're attacked with an Attack of 80, you'd calculate the damage dealt to their HP by substracting their defense from the attack power (80-50=30) and subtracting their HP by that number (100-30=70 HP left). With Nightmare the defense value is bypassed resulting in direct damage (100-80 = 20 HP left). Simple

As I'm sure you've already guessed by now, the focus of this build is around the popular board game, Chess. It's through the skill, Rule-Chess that this build is possible.

Rule-Chess is the Personal Attribute of Ham, the second overall ranked player in Lucid Adventure. Whenever Ham enters a battle, her passive skill activates, forcing everyone into a chess game. While this may sound simple, Rule-Chess is actually an extremely powerful Conceptual Magic.

If you recall above, a Conceptual Magic is the concept of a Personal Attribute which in Ham's case is Chess. The Rule-Chess is nothing short of Conceptual Manipulation based on the board game Chess, plain and simple.

As soon as this match begins, you'll be forced into my Chess match by the passive nature of Rule-Chess. You cannot flee this Chess match either as you're trapped within a Conceptual Barrier. The only way out of a Conceptual Barrier is to meet the set conditions or kill the caster. Physical and magic skills can't break it.

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And that statement was made by Choco Bibi, a magician who can teleport through space/dimensions and cut through dimensional space so we know that even space manipulating powers aren't enough to escape a Conceptual Barrier.

Aside from the standard rules of Chess, this skill comes with some other fun perks that Alice can utilize.

• One, as long as she doesn't lose in the Chess game, she takes no damage.
• Two, our power is equal during Chess

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Its not just Alice and your character that are equal, all foes and allies fight as equals under the Rule-Chess, so no matter who or what we summon, they all have the same power making things like attack power, defense and speed utterly worthless. Considering the Rule-Chess is passive, there is no way to avoid being caught in it the moment the battle begins. We'll both have to play it out.

If you want to defeat an individual, you have to do so by playing the game, plain and simple. We'll play out this Chess match until there is only one of us left standing going turn by turn. You're free to use any power you want but so am I, and I have some nasty powers up my sleeve.

In short, unless you can destroy the concept of Chess or beat Alice in Chess, you cannot escape from the Rule-Chess. This brings us the brains of Alice's build, "The Man Loved by God", Lucian Dire aka Faust.

-- He Who Transcends Knowledge and Wisdom --

There is no factor greater than a strong mind in a chess match. Fortunately for Alice, she possess one of, if not, the most perfect mind for chess. The Man Loved by God, Lucian Dire, aka Faust from Soul Cartel.

What makes Faust's mind so perfect for this build is the same thing that earned him the nickname, "The Prophet". A perfect stratagem does not exist. No matter how intricate the strategy, a small complication can throw the entire situation into disarray and achieve undesired results. Unforeseeable events such as injuries, accidents and natural disasters; both experience and knowledge, all of these are factors. But that doesn't apply to Faust.

Through only his intelligence, he is able to foresee every possibility. Not only calculating every possible scenario but returning everything to its original state. In the end everything goes according to his plans. The ability to peer through the domain of infinity. That is The Prophet.

Allow me to reiterate that as its actually an extremely overpowered feat. The capacity to see foresee and plan for every single possibility is utterly insane. There exist an infinite number of possibilities between event A and event B, yet Faust can see them all. Not only see, but actually plan for every point between A and B. With that level of intelligence, Faust would not only know everything his opponent is capable of, but he can plan around every possible action of that opponent. A plan within a plan, within a plan in an infinitely expanding series of events all unfolding before Faust's mind.

This level of intelligence is only Faust's most basic thought. Within his mind, lies the secret's of the Archangel's Library, a place where all knowledge resides with the exception of God's secret to creation. In short, Faust knows everything except the Secret of Biblical God's Creation and yet Faust himself can create life so God's creation must be something more. Faust's knowledge goes so far that he can create the nonexistent.

Faust's mind is so advanced that he actually figured out a way to take control of Time away from Gabramelek, a being capable to throwing around universes as an attack and attempted to usurp biblical God. Perhaps even more shocking is that through Faust's manipulation of Gabramelek's time storage, Mastema (the second most intelligent being in the Soul Cartel series) guesses it won't be long before Faust himself acquires control over time. Simply with his mind, transcending knowledge and wisdom.

Faust has numerous other feats displaying this vast intelligence and strategic nature. From instantly determining 65 different ways to stop two divine individuals from fighting (note those individuals are the ArchDevil Mephistopheles and Arch-Angel Micheal, the same Micheal who defeated Biblical Lucifer), to planning his own defeat and subsequent victory in a game of attrition in order to save an arch-angel who he predicted would need his help (said battle of attrition was against Mastema where the two played tag in an infinitely changing maze based on Faust's thoughts), to foreseeing and planning for every possible opponent in a tournament including a wide variables like hidden opponents, cheating, his own team's unknown latent abilities, even going so far as to request the Sword of God because he knew he would need it.

In a game of Chess, no mind is more dangerous than one that can see and plan for every possibly. There is no winning against a mind like this, only added variables in Alice's eventual victory.

-- The Infinite Transcendental Character --

As you may have noticed above, the Rule-Chess is a power possessed by a character named Ham. I am not using Ham in this battle, I'm using someone fair more dangerous. Someone who IS Ham and so much more. The Crow, Nathan Han.

Nathan Han is the secret main villain of the Hardcore Leveling Warrior (HCLW) series. Each person that plays Lucid Adventure can only create ONE character. A person's soul is literally their game account so it makes since that you'd only have one character since you only have one soul. Nathan Han is different. He possesses a Transcendental Personal Attribute that allows him to infinitely create his character. He isn't just one character, he is an infinite number of characters all acting as one.

Through the 13th squad of Giga (the organization that thinks they control Lucid Adventure), Nathan has copied all kinds of Personal Attributes and items then overlaid them with his hundreds of thousands of alternate characters. To give some insight into how impressive that single statement is, you have to understand there there have been less than 100 Personal Attributes and items identified in the series itself. That means Nathan Han has at the minimum, thousands of times more powers and items then every single power/item ever shown in the Hardcore Leveling Warrior series. He is effectively a composite of nigh-every character/item in the HCLW universe with hundreds of thousands of bodies all connected as one.

And hundreds of thousands is just Nathan toying with his opponent, its really a countless number of bodies that he's already created.

Those countless copies are just infinitely replicating themselves.

It looks something like this:

With each body (Nathan called them Dummies to trick people) being just like the original Nathan.

So what does the body spawning look like? Well, they just appear out of nowhere. Here are two examples:

As No Name confronts Nathan, she screams at him and stops mid sentence when Nathan spawns more bodies around her.

No Name charges at Nathan while he is by himself and Nathan hits her with her own Conceptual Magic, Voyage - Santa. At the same time his other bodies appear and use another Conceptual Magic, Udolomok (the Sea) to drain her power. Nathan and his bodies float over the water and mock No Name.

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Alright well what about when you kill Nathan?

Ok so this is before Nathan copied HCLW's and Roy Han's powers so he isn't as strong in these examples.

Gets his head blown off by CORE (CORE severs the origin of your existence) and just appears again with another body.

Gets smashed to pieces by Dark and cut apart by Sora only to appear again completely unfazed. Something else to note here, Sora uses a weapon called the Kitchen Knife. It can convert energy and matter into food but didn't do anything to Nathan. The Kitchen Knife's food conversion is so great, it can even turn part of Lacerate into food and Lacerate can cut through concepts.

There are several other examples of this same thing happening with different abilities like a soul burning attack from Dark or an absorption attack from No Name but its always the same result, Nathan just respawns. Go ahead and destroy one of Alice's body's, another will instantly appear as if nothing happened.

Even trapping or sealing him doesn't work. Stone trapped Nathan in a confinement tool that contains the Dragon of Light's mana and yet Nathan just swapped himself out with a dummy.

Basically Alice starts with countless bodies all the same as the original that can instantly spawn an infinite amount of additional bodies and even when killed, erased from existence, converted into food, have their soul burned away, absorbed or sealed just respawns instantly.

And don't forget, that Nathan also has the power of Nightmare granting him increased stats, regeneration, defense nullification, halts opponent's regeneration, cancels out all other kinds of energy, bypasses stat differences and item effects.

Before we go any further, remember that a Personal Attribute is a powerset for every character in Lucid Adventure. All of Nathan's infinite bodies fall under his Personal Attribute's powerset.

That of course brings us back to the theme at hand, Chess. With all the Personal Attributes at his disposal, Nathan will of course have the Rule-Chess as well.

Now, imagine playing Chess with someone who can foresee every possibility of every single move you make. Someone who knows all there is to know. Someone who can plan for one outcome while simultaneously adjusting for every other possibility . That's Faust's mind. If you want to beat Alice in Chess, you're first going to have to prove you can beat Faust's mind.

During the Chess match, its Nathan's power that will be doing most of the work, damaging you, breaking your defenses, advancing across the board until... Checkmate.

Of course Faust's mind would never be naïve enough to think that a simple Chess game will be enough to put you down though, nor do I think that you'll be powerless against it. In Alice's mind, the plans for every possibility are already made, just waiting for any action you take. That's where all my other powers come into play, but getting even that far is going to be difficult. You see, even IF you can somehow destroy the concept of Chess, Alice can simply remake it over and over and over again. Not only are there countless of versions of Alice with Rule-Chess, but they also possess other Conceptual and Transcendental Skills. Even skills that cut off an entity from its existence like the Perfect Slash aka Lacerate:

Perhaps even more impressive is that Lacerate is one of the only abilities with the power to cut through Conceptual Magic, that is cutting through a concept. Lacerate was created by the Almighty God, who Nathan Han has already copied and been show to summon before. With that power, Alice can spam Lacerate x 100, endlessly all at once for an infinite reign of concept and existence erasing cutting attacks.

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Another overpowered skill, The Liar will prove exceeding difficult for anyone to handle. With the exception of Mind and Body Fooler's, the lie isn't being actually being told to Alice's opponent, but rather their mana or energy source. Its the manipulation of your mana, your very energy. Its more akin to power manipulation or power control then anything else. When All Magic Disappears is said, its not said to the opponent, its said their energy, literally telling their energy to shut off.

And yet all that pales in comparison to The Liar's true power, The White Lie, Final Fooler.

White Lie can combine two conceptual magics which in this example are the concepts of the Santa Maria (Christopher Columbus' ship, the personal Attribute of No Name) and the Turtle Ship (Yi Sun-Shin's ship, the Personal Attribute of Master Swordsman) to create a new conceptual magic, a new concept.

Now here's where you'll really start to get an understanding of the magnitude behind Transcendental Skills. You see despite being the fusion of two concepts, the Santa Maria x Turtle Ship still cannot break HCLW's Barrier. Even Cave's direct attempt to steal the Concept of HCLW's Shadow failed.

But the Final Fooler is beyond such defenses! With Final Fooler, Constant can broke through HCLW's barrier, something that's immune to conceptual manipulation. As far as I can tell, that's a pretty solid power that not many, if anyone in this tournament can block.

With a mind like Faust's I'm sure you can imagine just some of the endless possibilities such an ability grants to Alice. Final Fooler will break any defense you attempt, even defenses that are immunity to conceptual manipulation. Alice could even use Final Fooler to fuse the Conceptual Magic of Rule-Chess with another Conceptual Magic like:

• Bident - A skill that cuts the very nature of the target. Everytime the target is cut, damage is done and their stats permanently go down at random.
• Barrier of Confinement - Isolates the opponent in a conceptual barrier for one hour
• Shadow Slave - steals your shadow and powers (not sure if banned under no power copying rules so if it is, just ignore this)
• Teleport - Creates multiple conceptual barriers that completely isolate this space from others (extra credit to The Liar as Constant was able to break through this conceptual barrier)
• Eternal Death - conceptual instant death

I have no limit to how many skills or abilities I can use at once either. Nathan can have countless of characters spamming Conceptual Magic and Transcendental Skills all at the same time.

In short, The Liar is the ultimate defense and anti-defense ability. And before anyone tries to call The Liar reality warping, its actually stated that it doesn't change the rules of the world.

The lies are just build up so elaborately that you can't tell the difference between what's real and what's not.

Nathan has of course, copied HCLW's powers so he has his conceptual immune barrier. Any skill or magic you attempt to use against me can blocked by that barrier, be lied to and/or be made to disappear by other means that you'll see later.

That's only three of the MANY powers at Alice's disposal through Nathan Han but until you can beat at least those three powers, Alice won't even need the rest, at least in this possibility. That's not even including Nathan's Absolute Luck probability manipulation at 100%, guaranteeing the success of any particular outcome, but I'll use that later.

As actions change and counters are made, Alice's plans will natural change since she has already planned for every possibility. The brilliance in using Faust's mind grants a nigh-infinite strategy. Should one option not work, countless others are already made just ready to take over. There is no scenario in which you do anything that surprises Alice or something that Alice hasn't already planned out a counter against. Every action is countered in real time, even at the same time, by another body, using the perfect ability to shut down your attempts.

-- The Golden Throne of Light --

Seeing every possibility is one thing, being able to do something about said possibilities is another. In a tournament of this tier with these level of abilities, its best to have something that can help control the flow of battle. Nathan's powers are one thing but real control, true control is being able to manipulate not only the battlefield but Time itself. Enter the Golden Throne of Light. This is a special item that interferes with time-related spells and abilities. It reverts Time to its Normal State.

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Lord Changcheon used this special item to counter Han Jihan's Master of Time spell that accelerates his time by 10 billion times (yes that's 10,000,000,000)!

But someone like Alice with Faust's mind wouldn't be satisfied with just keeping time flowing like normal, no, she wants full control. The Throne of Golden Light has that potential to control Time but its currently broke so it can only interfere with Time abilities.

Thankfully Nathan's power offers a solution to this broken feature. After copying 99% of HCLW's powers, Nathan can use HCLW's Repair Skill which is capable to repairing items that are irreparable!

The broken Time Control feature of the Throne of Golden Light can be instantly fixed and returned to its former glory. Considering Faust has already shown the mental capacity to wretch control of time from a character throwing around Universes, his knowledge of time manipulation will be on par with the very best of this tournament.

Any attempt you make at manipulating time gets instantly disabled with the Throne's power all the while Alice is taking control of time for her own purposes. Your resistance to time manipulation is made null by Final Fooler allowing Alice to take full advantage of time control.

Of course I understand that we're in the heat of battle and your character might not allow Alice to repair the Throne of Golden Light. That's yet another perk to Nathan's power. While you're character is busy facing Alice in Rule-Chess any of the other countless copies of Alice's can repair the Throne, with one simple skill.

And while we're on the topic of items, I hope you're not relying on yours, because Alice is going to take it immediately. Seizure is a skill created by HCLW (which of course means Nathan can use it) that takes possession of items and blocks them from being controlled by their original user. With such a skill, anyone one of Alice's bodies can just take your Gear piece and add it to her own arsenal.

Introducing the Master Devil's Lucky Coin. One of the many, many powers at Nathan Han's disposal comes from Master Devil Hardcore Leveling Warrior (HCLW)'s Lucky Coin.

Lucky Coins - HCLW's specific ability. It allows him to buff himself with stat increases, skills or even change his evasion. He has 10 lucky coins in a battle (actually more but I'll save those for later). Each coin can double a specific stat. Normally, most players would avoid the Lucky Coin ability. When you think about it, the risk outweighs the potential benefit. A 50/50 chance to double your stat if you guess the right side of the coin but if you guess wrong, it doubles your opponent's stat instead. Now what would happen if you changed that 50/50 into a 99/1 chance for success instead? That's where HCLW's Personal Attribute comes into play. He has a 99% chance to always guess his Lucky Coins correct.

And its not just limited to stats either. Lucky Coins also effect the probability of a specific outcome granting 100% accuracy, evasion or even skill success.

Using a single Lucky Coin, Dark increased the skill success rate of his Rewind (reverses time on a particular person) skill to 100%. This is actually more significant then it appears. Rewind was on a 1 year cooldown period and yet, with a Lucky Coin, that cooldown was bypassed and Dark was able to use Rewind.

Not only did it bypass the cooldown it also gave the absolute best result possible. When Rewind was originally used on HCLW, it reverted him into his Rank #3 self, but when Rewind was used with a Lucky Coin, 100% Success, HCLW was reverted to his Rank #1 self, his most powerful state (at the time).

Lucky Coins are so versatile that they can even effect and materialize concepts! Basically you're looking at something that can give 100% probability to nigh-any outcome, including conceptual manipulation.

So using a Lucky Coin, Alice can give any skill or desired effect a 100% success rate and bypass any rules on said skill.

Starting with this since it's the simplest. I believe a lot of people are focused on breaking the tourney with hax, so I'm gonna put some emphasis on the importance of physicals here. Especially because they're easier to compare and contrast as opposed to the many abstruse verse-specific powers that are in play.

Stats are universal and easy to judge, and I picked Gog because he can beat down even those that twin the limits based on his unrivaled damage soak (including hax resistance) and utilization of speed and power. He no-sold a bomb of his own construction at point blank that obliterated Krypton and transmuted even Superman into Kryptonite.

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Superman has a long record of matter manipulation resistance; a particularly impressive instance would be when he was was exposed to the full brunt of a cosmic radiation storm summoned by Mxy, who stated it to have transmuting properties that "twist and transform" everything it touches on an "atomic level".

(It should be relevant that Mxy is also a multiversal 5th dimensional character). So nothing planet busting and below will hurt the Apostle. And lucky for me, planet busting itself IS the limit for not just AP, strength and durability, but also all hax that you can use offensively. So when it comes to physical damage my body should be fine unless you break one of the hax or power limitations, and this will be extremely important down the stretch once I reveal my strategy.

Beyond casual planetary durability, and surpassing atomic (and potentially dimensional) matter manip resistance, Gog should comfortably sit at the speed limits. Light travels 1 foot in a nanosecond and Gog reacted to and intercepted Hunter who crossed several meters in-between the span of nanoseconds.

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Body comes with your senses as well, and Gog can preemptively visualize energy signatures to react to characters much faster than himself, such as Kingdom Come Flash who should be well over the speed limits.

Gog struck him after tracking the electrons in his path, which is pretty insane because KC Flash is so fast that his body can't be contained to a single plane of existence, and he's constantly phasing in and out of dimensions and realities. Which adds a completely different dynamic to the physical properties of energy signatures and electrons, as well as standard speed-timing prediction.

Gog's strength is no less impressive than what he boasts in other physical departments: he may not be Superman's most prolific villain, but he definitely has the best track record against him. Killing him thousands of times, Gog's strength comes from scaling above not just KC Supes, but every member of the JSA combined.

Overpowering KC Supes alone is impressive when considering he's manhandled his PC counterpart who can strike hard enough to shatter small planets. And Gog takes him and everyone else on without trying.

To round this out with more resistances, Gog warding off possession from Obsidian is a pretty great feat

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Obsidian can inhabit things down to their basic particles

In JSA Vol. 1 #8 Obsidian effortlessly no-sells an attack from and one-shots Ian Karkull

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...the same Ian who, using Obsidian as a vessel, was able to single-handedly take on the combined forces of the JSA with shadow constructs and possession. The JSA roster at the time most remarkably included Hourman One Million (who can hold his own against Amazo) and Doctor Fate [JSA Vol. 1 (1999) #7-8].

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Immediately after, Obsidian spreads his darkness to engulf the entire planet in the Shadowlands and makes every human on it see their worst fears.

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Mind/body/soul possession on a planetary range down to a sub-atomic scale is insane, and right at the limits of the tourney. So you won't be able to use most hax against him and his durability makes most damage against him null. Gog is a fortress and this is really only a fraction of what he can do.

Chaos was a risky pick for me, the entity itself doesn't really have much in the way of um, uhhhhhhhhhhh............... feats -_-

Not to worry though. The important thing about Chaos isn't so much what it can do, more so what it is. Which is fine, because the mind of your build isn't supposed to actually do anything, it just equips your build with knowledge and skills. Chaos is the final and ultimate antagonist of the Sailor Moon manga. It is the primordial state of non-existence that preceded the creation of the universe. Chaos is an abstract concept based on the cosmogony of its own name, which is the branch of science that deals with the origins of creation, and has roots in different mythologies and religions.

Chaos is responsible for nearly every conflict in the series, yet remains a conceptualization until the very end of the manga, where in the distant future it reemerges as a fully realized, drastically more powerful physical embodiment of itself called Sailor Chaos.

The antagonists in each arc of Sailor Moon is an aspect of Chaos given an avatar, so all their feats belong to it. Each Chaos Spawn can freely control time, space, matter and energy on obscene levels.

As Sailor Chaos, between the abilities of the four Chaos Spawn, I will have all the knowledge and skill needed to access the full depths of the Silver Crystal's power within limits. That and the fact that your build can persist as a mind and things like existence erasure would include erasing the mind since it's part of your existence. With my mind being Chaos I'm granted the same unassailable level of immortality within tournament constraints that everyone has gone through hoops to achieve.

Simply put, Chaos can not be killed unless the universe(s) and all possibilities are destroyed, and obviously you have no way to do that.

Canonically, in the manga, there is no way to do this.

It fused with this thing called the Galaxy Cauldron which is the birthplace and grave of everything that exists, and is essentially a localized, infinitely repeating Big Bang.

Destroying Chaos would result in destroying all of creation, as Chaos itself is an amalgamation of the concepts of time, space, and energy throughout all possible universes. So a) you would need to reality warp and b) it would be... well above planetary.

I'll directly transition from Chaos' introduction and purpose to discuss the Silver Crystal. The Silver Crystal's function here is determined by the Sailor Chaos mind, and specifically the abilities of its Chaos spawn, which should give me an absolute offense that compliments Accelerator and Determination (two powers that combine for absolute defense).

So the Silver Crystal is an important item that was sought after by all the major forces in the series, as the main MacGuffin of the story. It contains infinite, immeasurable power and is the source of all energy in the universe. The reason I picked Chaos' mind instead of Usagi's (the actual wielder of the Crystal) is because Sailor Chaos is much more powerful than even Usagi's strongest future version as shown earlier, and the primary objective of all the Sailors was to prevent the Crystal from falling into the hands of Chaos and it's spawn. The Silver Crystal's main purpose is healing, restoration and life and brings peace, love and tranquility. But if the enemies had it they'd use its power for destruction.

This isn't just limited to destroying planets; Chaos with the Silver Crystal was going to create a new universe entirely.

You've gone out of your way to install contingencies for time manipulation, some of which people might be familiar with from my last post. But beyond what was posted then, I just think the Silver Crystal is one of the strongest time manipulation devices in recurrent fiction. Even though you have Kang's armor which countered the Time Gem, the Silver Crystal can work in areas where time doesn't exist (its light transcended spacetime to reach into The Rift), so the weakness of that gem can't be exploited here. The Crystal should similarly be above to override the Throne of Light simply based on it's own feats and statements. An item called The Dark Crystal was capable of actively warping all of spacetime, and even as it was rewriting/restarting history the Silver Crystal was stated to shut it down every time it tries, and that the Dark Crystal would never exceed it. Other translations have the Dark Crystal "pale in comparison" to the Silver Crystal, and the Crystal's power is proven infinite, making it impossible to surpass in terms of energy.

The Silver Crystal also scales infinitely above Sailor Pluto, who was able to use time stop to freeze Planet Nemesis, and prevent Prince Demande from touching the past and future paradox Silver Crystals together to obliterate the entire space-time continuum.

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Sailor Pluto has the blood of Chronos the God of Time flowing through her veins, and as his daughter and the keeper of the Underworld Door of Time and Space, she exists in the rift between times and oversees all time. (Chronos is the God/Creator of time and creator of the spacetime continuum).

Pluto informs Usagi that within that rift there is no concept of distance or direction, making it not just timeless but spaceless as well (& functionally infinite) even if it wasn't for the additional spacetime distortions happening at the moment because of a time storm caused by Nemesis/Phantom. According to her it's forbidden to go to the edges/depths of this void of non-existence, stating that in this region, a space-time key is required to identify any specific point in space lest you become a wanderer of that timeless space-less void forever (even to characters that can time travel and travel dimensions).

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As the gatekeeper of time, Pluto governs these keys which along with her mere existence and control over the rift between times (that eternally traps characters who can travel through time and dimensions) and underworld door serve as undeniable evidence that she's acausal. Her time stop maneuver is so powerful it's considered a taboo and can only be performed at the cost of her life, and its potency was accurately reflected by her feat of freezing Planet Nemesis who was controlled by a spirit named Death Phantom that was actively warping all of spacetime, tearing holes through the fabric of spacetime (bringing the sailors to the end of spacetime) and poised to rewrite history and take over all planets in all dimensions due to time, space and energy bowing to its will.

Death Phantom was passively warping time so drastically that beings from the 30th century were leaking into the 20st century without time traveling (something only Pluto can green light) causing 1000 years to exist in a single moment.

Choose your battles wisely, and waging one over time manipulation isn't an argument you should want to take unless you're absolutely equipped with the necessary feats to prove superiority to the potential of the Crystal under Chaos' power. (Death Phantom and Nemesis are just fragments of Chaos).

I think your assumptions about Accelerator hurt you the most. I'm not using his mid tier version that gained notoriety from bait matches against bricks on the battle forums to test the limits of NLF. I'm using composite Accelerator. And as of NT22 he's 11D and controls imaginary vectors that reject and nullify absolutely everything including high-end reality warping.

Accelerator's powers have very clear limitations and he has several weaknesses, but if you can't take advantage of them he's unbeatable in the physical world. His main ability is vector manipulation, which allows him to control everything that has magnitude and direction. He can use it to achieve a variety of effects such regeneration, destroying matter, energy draining, blood flow reversal, and most famously: his passive attack reflection.

First let me start with the fundamentals. This is how Esper powers work as explained in volume 3.

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It's worth reading everything. But I understand that's a lot of words so here are the main takeaways:

“So there are now two possibilities: the possibility that chocolates are inside or the possibility that hard candies are inside. Of course, only one of those can be true. However, when we’re just talking about possibilities, both possibilities are jumbled together.”

Komoe-sensei lightly waved the box for chocolates around.

“Those two possibilities appear as a single result once the box is opened to check on what the contents are. Originally, the contents had a 50% chance of being chocolates and a 50% chance of being hard candies, but once you look it changes to a 100% chance of being chocolates.”

______________________________________________________________

“Now then,” she said closing the box again. “Assuming the two possibilities were 50% chocolates and 50% hard candies, what do you think is inside this box, Sister-chan?”

“??? I don’t really get it, but I saw chocolates in there just now.”

“Yes. A normal person will choose the 50% chance of chocolates at this point.” Komoe-sensei waved the box around again. “But what would happen if there was a person who could choose the 50% chance of hard candies?”

______________________________________________________________

“When we refer to espers, we refer to someone whose ability to view the reality of the 50% chocolates vs. 50% hard candies differs from that of normal people. […] “Espers who are cut off from the proper reality gain a personal reality that differs from ours. As a result, they can distort a micro world using different laws. In other words they gain the power to destroy things without touching them or to see one year into the future by closing their eyes.”

Espers manifest the possibility of the improbable to stimulate supernatural phenomenon. A large amount of Espers are really just specialized low-end reality warpers. Accelerator is an anomaly even within them and he is among the strongest in the series. Only Touma with Imagine Breaker could take a majority against him out of the kids, but the Accelerator power is equally suited for invincibility based on it's high ends.

Accelerator is the perfect foil to Rule-Chess because his abilities are also passive. Which seems to be one of the biggest reasons you place confidence in it. But unfortunately for you, Accelerator's reflection works even when he's sleeping. He could be taking a nap unaware that a battle is even taking place and still counter all your attacks.

Accelerator learned how to reflect magic and became functionally immune to it. He started slaughtering angels and was able to deflect a sword that slices through all dimensions (in spite of not being able to stop the sword or slicing itself).

His best feat is reflecting Coronzon's ultimate attack which is comparable to Othinus' Gungnir; a simple, honest... reality-warping-universe-destroying attack.

Some more info about Othinus...

She destroys and recreates the universe endlessly just to make a point, and it's stressed that she abuses her reality warping which allows her to control absolutely everything in the world, even shutting down Touma's Imagine Breaker with magic despite it's premiere ability being able to negate magic.

TL;DR Accelerator passively reflects everything you can possibly do back at you. I will go into specific examples in my strategy.

Accelerator slowly stood up, narrowed his eyes, reached for his neck, and produced a clicking sound. He had flipped the switch. Still curled up on the floor, Qliphah Puzzle 545 looked up at that monster and slowly smiled even as she trembled. But this smile was different. It had to be the true expression she had never let Coronzon or Aleister Crowley see.

[...]

There was a dry bursting sound.

She blinked her eyes.

The translucent demon girl forgot to breathe.

Her heart had not come to a stop.

“Eh? Ah?”

She had simply seen Accelerator forcefully stomp on the truck’s floor. That was all. But something like a shockwave radiated from that point and, when it passed through Qliphah Puzzle 545’s body, the contract with Coronzon – the thing inside her that had been driving her to act – was mercilessly shredded

She was freed from her bonds.

[...]

The #1 could not even manage the fundamental act of refining life force into magic power. Here, he had only manipulated some vectors to bend and gather the thinly distributed energy that was already there.

Qliphah Puzzle 545 could clearly sense it now.

In her own way, she could sense the invisible field of power and the linked data entity that covered the world.

“Thus, I can become the manager seated in the unmarked eleventh sphere!! My name is Qliphah Puzzle 545, my number is the true 11, and its meaning is ‘the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds’! The path of 78 cards is found here. I provide power to my contractual master, the transcendent lifeform who controls the entirety of the still nameless third three. I offer the path of survival to that being! I offer him the wisdom found beyond the Abyss!!!!!”

Aleister Crowley had once failed at this.

The experiment had been to take Great Demon Coronzon inside his body in order to cross the Abyss that no normal human could cross, but Coronzon had refused to cooperate and the experiment had been halted.

But what if?

What would have happened then if the demon had truly offered to help and had joined him with no ill will or deception? The answer was revealed here.

“Magic God, you still cling to the surface!! So don’t think you stand a chance against my master who has crossed the Abyss!!!!!”

An explosive noise burst out.

But it was not the sound of the violent gale Accelerator had been trying to unleash. This was less distinct.

It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.

His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.

“Tch!!”

The brown goddess had preserved her beauty even as her torso was blown away, but she finally clicked her tongue and pushed Accelerator off of her. This slightly diverted the spear’s trajectory so it only sliced off a tuft of her long silver hair.

Something was different from before.

The separated hair did not reconnect and it simply rotted away. She rolled away from him.

Once Academy City’s #1 monster got up, the translucent demon wrapped her arms around his neck. She would not run away any more.

She was no longer afraid.

She now understood what her contractual master had said. Don’t cry. Don’t be afraid. Yes, she could really and truly rely on him, so she did not even need to fear the possibility of her actions harming him!!

“You don’t understand magic and you don’t know the rules, so that Magic God could mock you and act all omniscient and omnipotent, but that ends now.”

In order to truly give him her power and to fight while harming each other, Qliphah Puzzle 545 glared directly at Magic God Nephthys.

“I will provide you with what you need to know by installing the knowledge of the entire tree of 78 cards. It doesn’t matter if you are aware of it or not, master. Just control the vectors however feels right to you. All of ‘us’ will make sure it all works out!!”

Mikoto let out a trembling voice upon seeing Kamijou gritting his teeth.

“What are you doing?” She spoke like she was seeing something she could not believe. “You can’t. You’re only saying that because you don’t know what Accelerator’s power is! It’s crazy to even think of taking on that kind of overpowered villain that you would see in a manga. He’s the kind of person who would just cackle at the fact that every army in the world was after him!”

“…”

Kamijou did not respond.

He merely remained silent and gathered strength in his legs in order to stand up from being on one knee.

“Accelerator’s power is the ability to freely control all kinds of vectors such as motion, heat, and electricity as long as they are touching his skin. You can’t find an opening in an overpowered ability like that even if you know what the ability is!” Mikoto seemed to be yelling out at the unfairness of reality. “All of his attacks will reach you, but none of yours will reach him. In fact, everything you fire at him is reflected right back at you. No human can stand up to an absolute one-way road like that!”

Toaru Majutsu no Index (Light Novel) - Volume 3, Chapter 4: Accelerator. Level5(Extend).

========================================================

“Re...flection...!?”

“Sorry, that’s not entirely wrong, but it still doesn’t get to the essence of what I can do!”

The girl somehow tried to distance herself from the boy, but her body would not do what she told it to due to the electrical attack she herself had fired.

“The answer is vector transformation! Motion, heat, electricity. I can alter any kind of vector that touches my skin. I have it set to reflect by default, though!”

Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 3, Chapter 2 Part 5

========================================================

He was an esper with the power to observe, calculate, and control every type of vector. If he missed the vectors he could not see or hear, he would never be able to defend against things like radiation.

“And then I suddenly realized it.”

“Realized what?”

“I already have things I can’t understand inputted within me.”

“…”

“I first thought of the previous battle between the water angel and the scientific angel, but that wasn’t the right answer. Before that, well before that, I understood it with my own body.”

Accelerator spoke as if he had realized something.

“Yes.”

Speaking of his own loss would have been unthinkable for the person he had once been. But now his priorities had changed.

If he could protect a small life in exchange for his pride, he would unhesitatingly cast it aside.

“I was unable to reflect an unknown attack. It just went straight through my defenses and cut my body in two. I couldn’t come up with a single way of dealing with it. I was utterly defeated at that time.”

He now had enough leeway to smile.

He pushed on his own back and took another step forward.

“But it wasn’t that the attack did not have vectors. I’m sure I had those unknown laws inputted into my body from Aiwass back then.”

Thinking back on it, that had been what had happened.

Aiwass had not just erased his powers like that Level 0.

The being had not worked around his powers like Kihara Amata or Kakine Teitoku.

Aiwass had used a completely straightforward attack and its vectors had directly struck Accelerator. In that case, that information should have been transferred to Accelerator.

A hint had been within his own head from the beginning. The answer was within him. Aiwass had said to go to Russia, but it had not said the solution needed to save Last Order would be simply laid out before him. All that monster had presented to him was the key to the vault.

He mustn’t write it off as “unknown”.

He mustn’t just throw it into the black box.

He needed to establish nonexistent vector axes that could deal with what seemed off. He needed to think of math dealing with things such as imaginary numbers that did not actually exist in the real world but that could be explained using purely mathematical calculations. He had to calculate what the values were from the vectors before his eyes in order to determine what laws were used to create them. He could not figure it all out just from Aiwass. Aiwass was a nonstandard monster. A fragment of an asteroid altered by tremendous heat was nothing more than a rock in and of itself. However, using high level formulas on it could become a key to guessing at the spread of the universe from the big bang.

Of course, he may not be able to grasp a perfect picture of it, but he could put together an inference that was exceedingly close to the truth.

The big bang at the start of the universe had yet to be proven to be a giant explosion. All that had been done was using giant ring-shaped particle accelerators to recreate and confirm the physical phenomena theorized to have happened after the explosion.

Physicists used that to continually bring the original explosion as close as possible to reality in their minds as they filled in the details bit by bit.

He just had to do the same thing.

The skill to focus and control the vectors of forces and alter them into attacks was nothing more than an added value. Most likely, the core of the reason he existed slept in what he was doing there.

When he had naturally been given his esper name, he had surely understood it on an instinctual level, but Accelerator once more became strongly aware of that reason.

“By mixing in nonexistent math similar to imaginary numbers into the contents of the parchments and inputting just one line of a unique physical formula, it rises to the surface. But that isn’t what’s important. Once I have solved the puzzle using the rules I put together myself, the mysterious Aiwass vectors in my head have been cut down to an inference exceedingly close to reality on the same level as the big bang theory. In other words,” Accelerator paused for a second, “I have the parameters needed to save this brat. Now is the time to turn this around.”

“This is a tree made by human hands – a new tree not found in any legends or myths! It is still a small sapling, but this new mystic power does not rely on the hand of god and instead provides possibilities controlled by human hands. The artificial tree of Clonoth carries no good or evil!!"

Something else overlapped the world Accelerator could see.

His vision grew dark and the flavor of blood grew stronger.

But he did not care.

If this pain was truly necessary, the white monster would accept it.

His partner had cast out her old self that had hidden behind his back out of fear of harming everyone. She was now wordlessly telling him that he would be fine with this much, so he had to live up to her expectations.

He would show her that the strongest could not be broken by this.

What he saw before him was not just another realm crossing over from a different phase. It was different from the cosmology of microcosm and macrocosm that had been spoken of for more than two thousand years along with the Sephiroth and Qliphoth.

The Sephiroth was the tree of life which showed how to properly build up a human mind. By working toward a proper understanding, you could purify your soul and climb the ranks one at a time. But if you viewed it incorrectly and mistakenly thought you had already risen to the top, you would lose control of your mind and end up with a negative result.

The Qliphoth was the evil tree which showed how to create and use the negative side of the human mind, such as envy and wrath. It normally manipulated people and caused chaotic destruction, but when used correctly, it could bring positive results such as the art born of anger.

But this was different.

It was neither of those.

“I am a created demon. I am no more than a small piece of power cut away, but my essence is that of a guide, just like Coronzon!! My number is the true 11 and its meaning is ‘the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds’. View the hidden barrier not contained within the ten! I lurk there to block any unnecessary ascent and I offer the power to cross the Abyss only to the truly qualified!!”

Yes.

It had been with him from the very beginning.

It had been invisible, but it had been there supporting the strongest Level 5’s power.

It branched out into countless individuals, but it could be wielded as a single great whole.

The invisible third tree.

The large data entity constructed by the brains of the military clones linked by EM waves.

“This is a tree made by human hands – a new tree not found in any legends or myths! It is still a small sapling, but this new mystic power does not rely on the hand of god and instead provides possibilities controlled by human hands. The artificial tree of Clonoth carries no good or evil!! I shall become the guide of this young tree. Rejection of the Abyss, leave us as I become one with my chosen master and cross that line. We shall arrive beyond Keter! We need not fear the unknown territory that is no more than a series of zeroes!!”

The tree of life was the positive mind and the wicked tree was the negative mind.

So the artificial tree represented neither of those.

Social media likes added at the click of a button, a fitness gym where the more stoic you were the more you were praised, stars on a gourmet site, and Academy City where people were managed by the Level of their power. New value systems had a way of changing the way people thought. There was a side of the mind that was manipulated by the very cutting-edge civilization humanity had created for themselves. This tree listed the later changes to the soul which would never have appeared if humanity had not acquired fire, forged steel, harnessed steam and oil, and controlled electricity.

“Damn…you!! What are you doing? That isn’t the Sephiroth or the Qliphoth. If…if you embed something like this in the world, it will change things even more fundamentally than Angel Fall!!”

“I don’t know how you see it /return. The Misakas are simply here as ourselves /return. We are all with him at all times and in all places /return. Process this is in whatever form is simplest for you /return. As the Will of the Misakas, I authorize this remote operation and grant you authority here /return. Use all the power here as you see fit and protect what it is what you want to protect /return!!”

Yes.

That was it.

Qliphah Puzzle 545 was an artificial demon. She was a supernatural being who had been downsized for convenience by having a portion of her functionality cut away. But what model was she based on? She had been created by Great Demon Coronzon. And that Great Demon would naturally have used the most readily-available model she had: herself.

He grabbed at the large number of approaching spears, grabbed ahold of the vectors of something flowing through them, and forcibly reversed that flow. Dark Matter contained no blood, but Accelerator could feel a pulse signal similar to bioelectricity. Just like destroying the center by applying pressure to an extremity, he broke through all the countless spears at once. Kakine Teitoku’s body at the center twitched a bit.

“See?”

Given the comparative speeds, it was too late to move your hand after Magick: Flaming_Sword had already been released. Nevertheless, it worked.

Consistency fell apart. Causality was ignored.

In other words, it was a miracle.

“I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth where the forces of evil gather. I am the Great Demon hidden by the holy Sephiroth. I dwell in the same abyss as Da’at.”

The unbroken illusion produced a dreadful straining noise as it slowly moved before his eyes.

She held her left hand straight forward and pulled her right hand back.

And, as if overpowered, it was Kamijou Touma who took a step back.

“Every number is the same. My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection. Watch as the possibilities expand and surpass the bounds of the finite. My left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. The smallest point gathers and concentrates all forces to create a single meaning. Thus, an attack shall be released from the infinite acceleration of the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit and shall appear on the surface layer of this world.”

Now, did Kamijou Touma realize that was the pose for wielding a rapier?

And before even that, what was the fate of one who had thoughtlessly touched an untouchable taboo?

Lola Stuart, Great Demon Coronzon, moved her lips in a bewitching and mechanical way.

No. A different face clearly appeared from her long, long blonde hair.

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power.”

It happened suddenly.

“No!”

TP resistance comes from the mind of your character, and having read Soul Cartel I wanna make it clear that Faust has a very low level TP resistance; easily surmountable in the context of this tourney. He fended off a "brain hacking" from some random featless fodder in a tournament, which was very limited and flawed per his own admission

Lol I find it so amusing that you copy and pasted those scans directly from Falbium's Faust Respect Thread. I should probably warn you that its not a good idea to debate Faust's feats with me using that Respect Thread. I helped Falbium write it lol.

Perhaps you missed some points in that feat where Faust says he has "Layers upon Layers" of firewalls to prevent mind hacking. In addition, if you're going to attempt a telepathic attack on Faust, you're going to have to link minds at some point. That's mental suicide. Imagine being in the mind so someone who can see every possibility for every possible outcome? It would be like getting hit with Gojo's Unlimited Void lol. Have fun with that.

But I digress, you asked for more mental resistance feats so here you are:

It's hard to post all the scans since its lover the course of several chapters but Soul Cartel Chapter 103, 104,107 and 108, see's Mastema attempted to corrupt Faust's mind and soul by bringing Faust's old lover up from Purgatory, Gretchen. Faust had accidentally killed Gretchen's brother in a duel that ended up ruining Gretchen's life. It was Gretchen's forgiveness that allowed Faust to be victorious in his contract with the Arch-Devil Mephistopheles 500 years ago. Mastema manipulates Gretchen into saying that her forgiveness was a lie and that everything Faust fought for those 500 years ago, was a lie. Faust appears to be corrupted and controlled by Mastema. The Arch-Devil orders Faust to kill Gretchen which it appears he does but in fact it was Faust manipulating Mastema the entire time in order to save Gretchen and the her brother, the hidden hostage.

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Now I'm sure you're wondering how powerful that TP feat is? Well its hard to gauge since neither Faust nor Mastema are big into stats. They're prep and cunning type characters but I can give some insight into how strong Mastema actually is. In case you forgot, the Arch-Devil Mastema is 1/4 of the power needed to awaken Lucifer's Power, the same Lucifer that empowered Mephistopheles to destroy Gabermelck and his 12 universes. Now while attack power doesn't equate to things like TP and Soul steal, it does go to show the tier of power that Mastema is operating in.

And before you try to refute how strong Mastema is, remember that he transformed the landscape of the third level of Hell, an area equivalent to the size of the Earth. He literally transformed an area the size of Earth just to trap Faust. This level of power is further backed up by other statements saying Mephistopheles could easily destroy the Earth if he wanted to, so we know the Arch-Devils are extremely strong.

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That's pre-skip Faust too. By the end of the series, he's playing mental gymnastics with Mastema and trolling him.

Not enough for you? Okay, let's turn it up a notch.

Remember how Constant's Liar can break through defenses that not even Conceptual Manipulation can scratch? Well Constant can also use a lie called God Fooler, that's supposed to take over a God's mind. He attempted to use this on Roy Han, who immediately shrugged it off and punched Constant with God's Hand. You'll notice this is also amped with Nightmare so that God Fooler also bypassed all defenses and yet Roy Han still wasn't effected. (If you're going to say Roy Han is bleeding from Mind Fooler, you're wrong. He's bleeding because he is dying in real life from cancer and his game avatar is breaking down)

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I don't think you understand how impressive that feat is so I'm going to break it down in more detail. For starters, The Liar can bypass conceptual level defenses. We've seen this already. Then add in Nightmare that has also been shown to bypass conceptual level defenses + been shown to break things that as rule cannot be broken (shattering indestructible items with feats of not being damaged by something that's meant to pierce anything). That's a far higher tier of mind manipulation than anything you've shown.

Roy's ability to no sell these powers is due to his Almighty attribute, and as you should be well aware of by now, Nathan Han has Roy Han's powers:

So this is a pretty easy win condition for me and a way to one-shot you as soon as the match starts, before you can spawn clones or try to complete the chess game

Looks like you missed the part where I showed that Alice's clones aren't spawned. She starts out with her Infinite bodies. That's part of how Nathan's power works.

So looks like I've got the mind resistance stuff covered.

To top all that off though, even IF you somehow mind wrecked or soul wrecked one of the clones. That's a single entity. They aren't a hive mind. The clones can attack independent of Nathan and ANY of the clones could be the real Nathan at any time. So beating one or beating the "real" Nathan isn't going to work here.

Unlike the street level tech-based hacking that Faust faced in the series

Its funny that you say "street level tech" and yet you have no bases for that claim. You just say it like you know it for a fact which is flat out wrong. Every demon in that tournament was specially selected to beat Faust. That's the goal of the entire thing. Why would there be Street level anything in a tournament with stakes that high? And no, Faust himself certainly isn't street tier either.

Unlike the street level tech-based hacking that Faust faced in the series, Queen Nehelenia (a spawn of Chaos) was able to mind-destroy the entire planet while chilling in a separate dimension, causing widespread insanity and mayhem. It's well documented to be within her capabilities to trap everyone on Earth in an eternal nightmare as a byproduct of her power, afflicting even the Sailors with hallucinations and driving them mad, despite their very good mental resistance.

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With the Silver Crystal, I can replicate these effects with irreversible permanence. Don't feel bad though, weeb characters rarely have high tier TP resistance anyways. I would say you should've picked Negi for your mind in light of this but your own strategy wouldn't have worked without Faust so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Its a shame that's useless against me though. Faust's so called "Street Level" mental resistance is actually well into the planetary range. Perhaps you should re-read the series ;p

That's of course not including Auto-Reflector which will just bounce your TP attempts back at you. It will be so amusing to watch you mind wreck yourself lol

With just a fraction of the Silver Crystal's power, stealing souls is nothing but an easy thought:

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Faust is completely defenseless against my build and for good measure Negi has never countered soul steal or overpowered planetary TP, (by overpowered I mean fend it off successfully and not simply battle it 30 years; this matters because you don't have the luxury to afford even a momentary distraction in this fight). Plus there's different types of TP and Chaos is a pretty specialized brand that mixes hallucinogens, hypnotism, and mass hysteria among other traits.

While I don't have Negi's resistance please don't compare Negi's mind resistance to anything you've posted. Negi's resistance blows all that out of the water, but that's irrelevant.

As you've seen above, Mastema already tried to corrupt Faust's mind and soul to no success. In fact, all that happened was Faust ended up trolling Mastema. But let's give you another good soul and mind resistance feat then. Remember how Nathan has Nightmare power? While Nightmare is an incredibly powerful buff, it comes at an enormous cost. You see, Nightmare will actually erode you mind and soul, turning you into nothing but a berserk monster.

And that's just basic Nightmare from a random. Nathan was exposed to a Nightmare from its very source, Zero herself, the reality warping being who created the Lucid Adventure universe. Despite this, Nathan wasn't consumed by Nightmare, he made it his own. Spoilers (Zero is a hell of a lot more powerful then what's been shown in the series so far)

You'll also notice that Nightmare cannot effect Carter Han because of the protection of the Almighty God. That's Roy Han which Nathan Han has the powers of. So Nathan power set not only comes with lots of nasty powers, but its own build in resistances thanks to the Almighty attribute he currently possesses. I guess the weebs have more resistance feats then you thought.

In fact, since you yourself have no problem pushing defenses and resistances into the next tier, I'll do the same. Do you have anything that can bypass The Almighty's immortality? Mind and Soul attacks are useless. Even Nightmare's power can't even scratch him.

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It's actually kind of funny that Roy called that "Simple Attacks" when its made by Zero with Nightmare lol. Just goes to show that even something that destroys indestructible items and breaks through concepts, can't hurt The Almighty. So how are you going to hurt Alice then???

Well yeah. Maybe I have to worry about your obscure stuff, like a "conceptual chess game". But you legit have no argument against my conventional stuff to even make those random, specific, inaccessible powers mean anything. I take a look at this tournament and I see everybody trying their best to be creative, think outside the box and come up with some impractical bullshit to cheese their opponent. I wonder when we lost the plot. It's way easier to bring things back to the basics so that's what I decided to do for my strategy.

Its a shame those basics of yours are utterly useless against me. Maybe you should have build your character better ;P (I still love you though)

There's a reason why telepathy and soul manip are such popular mainstay abilities in the first place. It's resistance or bust. There's no two ways about it. You either have it or you don't.

I've got it several ways, so I'm good.

They're the abilities that popularized the importance of hax and allow people to understand why ignoring durability is overpowered when most battles used to be physical. So before we can even proceed into the esoteric things, you need to come correct with resistance feats for Faust or you never stood a chance in this match to begin with.

You're a thousand years too early to be talking to me about hax.

And I know that by picking Faust for his knowledge you made a massive oversight to standard hax in this tournament, since everyone was focused on the obscure stuff. Because he literally just does not have the feats.

Looks like someone needs to reread Soul Cartel.

TP'ing Faust or soul stealing him and absorbing it is an easy GG. Faust is the only part of you're build that you're allowed to post feast from to defend against this strat. And he's got nada.

Already showed some more mind and soul resistance feats for Faust and showed how Nathan Han brings additional mind/soul resistance with his power set.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this question. I was explaining the etymology of Chaos' name and how they tie into her origins and role in verse. I'm assuming you're asking for proof that Chaos is a conceptual being in the sense that its not physical, but this isn't something directly stated; just something overwhelmingly obvious by its characterization. Chaos has been a disembodied abstract visualization fused with Sagittarius Zero Star from her debut, that revealed itself to be the amalgamation of all the adversities that the Sailors faced at the end of the series.

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I'm sorry but that doesn't seem to show Chaos is conceptual in nature. Disembodied part of the Cauldron, sure, but I'm not seeing anything that suggests a conceptual nature.

Chaos is simply a void, and each of its spawn were incarnations of itself that controlled specific aspects of reality. Which brings me to your next question-

Okay so I looked through that whole section three times (serious why so many scans) I don't get why you are calling them " Aspects of Reality" unless that's just your way of making them sound cool. All the incarnations are definitely ridiculously powerful, there is no doubt about that, but calling them Aspects of Reality, doesn't make sense.

Now to briefly cover their time, space, matter and energy manipulation. All of them control aspects of reality to insane degrees.

Space and Time Manipulation:

• Much of this was already showed with Death Phantom in my opener as this is its primary power. Causing absolutely chaos with a time storm in the Time Rift (void with no time or space) after manipulating Chibi
• Space and time are just manipulation of energy and thought to it and the Dark Crystal can control all of space, and rewriting history and taking over all planets and all dimensions. (Would surpass the universe methinks)
• Again warps all of time and space (has always done this passively btw, just continually grows stronger)
• Death Phantom/Wiseman's domain is the edge of space-time in a warped space created by his Black Crystal
• Death Phantom was passively warping time and space so drastically that beings from the 30th century were leaking into the 20th century without time traveling (something only Pluto can green light) causing 1000 years to exist in a single moment.
• Nemesis shreds an actual tangible hole in the fabric of space-time
• The Rift feat can be translated to simply distorting all of space-time

Other spawn:

• Pharoah 90s presence distorts space so badly that it nearly merges dimensions together

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• And nearly succeeded
• Queen Nehelenia caused at least a planetary+ space-time distortion when she turned the Earth and moon black

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Energy manipulation

• Queen Metallia is a master energy drainer, considered an energy vampire. Capable of draining massive amounts of energy from the infinite Silver Crystal while deep underground, she was going to drain the energy of every living thing on Earth and convert it to her darkness
• Absorbing the energy of direct attacks from Senshi, growing stronger (despite being directly to her face which is her weak spot)
• Mettalia's mere presence can cause blindness
• Energy regenerates her
• Has very pinpoint, precise energy sensing singling out specific people
• Her energy absorption even allows her to consume spiritual attacks
• Planet Nemesis is also pretty accomplished with it's own draining. Simply being in the vicinity drained so much energy from the Sailors that they couldn't transform.
• The Black Crystal cancels out and absorbs into itself all energy that is used against it, even the Silver Crystal at the time, stopping another transformation.
• Nemesis passively radiates gargantuan amounts of negative energy
• Pharoah 90 can also absorb energy
• Can absorb energy/matter and even absorbs Mistress 9
• Nehelenia's lemures can turn energy and dreams into nightmares, and convert real space into imaginary nightmare space

Matter Manipulation

• Mettalia can apparently transmute things into stone after she drains them, turning the Moon Castle and everything and everyone in it into stone that crumbled away

• Nemesis can fade away distant planets
• Nehelenia turns Helios into a pegasus
• She can also de-age people until they disappear
• And trap people in stones

They have a ton of more feats as well as scaling to and fro interaction with the Sailor Senshi but these are the broad strokes of their power and abilities they have as a product of them being slivers of Chaos. Largely unchecked free reign over space, time, energy, etc.

• Queen Metallia is a mass of darkness - nothing says she is the aspect of darkness or that she controls all darkness
• Death Phantom is an evil spirit merged with Nemesis - again no aspect of reality here. Merging with a planet and taking over a solar system <<<<<< Aspect of reality (I'm not even sure which aspect of reality you're trying to use here either)
• Pharoah 90 I'm not even sure what's happening here. Seems like the Mungenzu Isle has a warped space time region that's allowed TAU Star System in??? - What's the aspect of reality here? Strong Space and Time manipulation sure, but Aspects of Reality are far greater than that or at least would need to be described as such. I see the Dark Crystal thing with Nemesis that it will allow the control of all space but did Nemesis every actually fuse with the Dark Crystal? Your scan here suggests that never happened. I'm legit asking for clarifying because its all over the place.
• Queen Nehelenia - dimension manipulation equals reality aspects now?

So yeah super strong beings certainly but aspects of reality they are not.

My point is precisely that Chaos' defeat was very contextual and plot-specific that it can't be exploited as a means of victory against it in any cross-universe setting. Chaos was fused with the Galaxy Cauldron, which meant that for Usagi to permanently kill Chaos she would have to destroy the Cauldron which instantly murks the galaxy and ceases the creation of star seeds, basically killing the verse. So instead she threw herself into the cauldron, which melted her out of existence, but she absorbed the powers of all the star seed potentialities in the cauldron and dragged Chaos down with her using her Lamba power. Something that just regenerated her faster than Chaos. They still ended up fighting again in the future in their stronger forms, with Sailor Chaos spanking Sailor Cosmos and probably would've continued to do so for eternity.

So why can't I just erase the concept of Chaos' existence like I've said a dozen times already? I haven't seen anything suggesting I can't so, winning? I'm sure you'll try to prevent that with Accelerator or Determination but as you'll see below, that's not going to save you.

No it's not actually... Because hax isn't allowed to exceed planetary.

No hax or power that you can use in this tournament can achieve the effect of killing Chaos or destroying the Cauldron. With requires bar minimum galaxy level size/range and universe/creation level power.

Isn't the Cauldron just a star at the center of the Milky Way? And even if it is a galaxy, why can't I erase the concept of Chaos' existence again??? I mean I can manipulate your powers to the beyond the conceptual level and control probability to the point that I can guarantee 100% success in erasing you, so why wouldn't that work?

And after beating Chaos those star seeds reincarnated into their past selves and were released again.So the heart of the Galaxy Cauldron contains energy that is essentially a localized infinite Big Bang on a time loop since the explosions from the birth and death of all star seeds is confined there. But whether or not it's just the galaxy or the entire infinite universe makes no difference as both of them are tiers above the limits and what your hax and power is allowed to affect under the rules in this tournament... so this is quite the pointless debate.

Okay, you're mind is a galaxy, so what? You can exist as a disembodied star fetus and yet nothing in that is stopping me from having 100% success in erasing you. I'll use a Lucky Coin to manifest the concept of your existence and cut it.

So how exactly do you plan on destroying the ***GALAXY*** Cauldron within these rules...? Final Fooler or something? And each Chaos Spawn is an incarnation of Chaos with a jurisdiction over time space and energy. Chaos is just a non-corporeal being, not a concept in the most literal sense outside it's origin, so you're deliberately missing the point.

You're right, Chaos is not a concept, that's clear. Having high levels of energy, matter, space and time manipulation does not mean you have jurisdiction over those things. That's insane. Any of us can name dozens of characters that poop of Sailor Moon's level of energy, space, time manipulation and yet they don't have "Jurisdiction" over space/time, matter and energy. There is literally no correlation there.

And if you must know, I might have the only character capable to destroying a galaxy within the rules. Since when has Alice been a single character to you? She is literally an infinite character. She starts with an infinite number of clones that continue to increase themselves infinitely. What do you think would happen if the Galaxy Cauldron was hit with an INFINITE number of planetary attacks at the exact same point in time? Poof, no more Galaxy Cauldron. And I can do this perfectly within the rules since each individual's power is still only planetary, I'm just doing it an infinite number of times all at the same time.

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This doesn't seem realistic or probable based on the feats you posted for The Liar. Which were combining two concepts and breaking through HCLW's barrier immune to concept manipulation. Even if power manipulation was to be believed and you rank this ability somewhere above conceptual yet below reality warping, I don't see how it's remotely applicable to changing what Chaos fundamentally is, and you don't have feats that cover the range it would need to apply to. Can your lies affect galaxies? Universal abstracts? Also, I don't have Chaos, I have her mind, so wouldn't a lie targeted to it just be a mental attack here? In which case I'd have resistance at the limits?

Turns out I don't have to do that anyway since you haven't showed Chaos is conceptual anything. What universal abstracts are you referring to? Certain not the incarnations because that's definitely not abstract anything.

The only being to ever resist one of Constant's lies was Roy Han and that's because he has The Almighty. Things like mental resistance don't factor in to your belief if something is real or not. Its not you that's targeted anyway, its your powers (as I've already explained a couple times now). Final Fooler literally stripped HCLW of his conceptual level defenses. How is that not applicable to doing the exact same thing to you?

Even IF you are a concept, (which I haven't seen anything supporting), I can cut through Concepts and Nightmare bypasses conceptual defenses so that's not going to help you here.

You yourself acknowledged the scan of the Chaos Spawn traversing the whole space time axis and each of them are just an extension of Chaos, so even if it is not omnipresent in the most literal sense what difference does it really make? The Galaxy Cauldron has the star seeds of everything that exist, including potential ones and possible futures, so if Chaos is fused with it wouldn't he also be in nearly everything, everywhere, all the time? And this is definitely reflected by some of the abilities of the Spawn, and how easily they can take control of time, space, energy, dimensions, and the darkness inside living people.

Here's the problem with that though. Its the spawn that started in the Cauldron and traveled across space and time, not Chaos. Has Chaos ever shown direct control over Star Seeds outside of the Sailors and her incarnation? Like can she manipulation John Smith into doing whatever she wants? You're saying she controls time, space , energy, dimensions and darkness but there's nothing that actually shows that control. Sure, there are plenty of really nice feats showing the manipulation of those powers, but do any of them actually really control time, or space or darkness, etc... If you're calling those feats, controlling, then its limited control over a certain area. When you say control, I think of that as controlling ALL of space, ALL of Time, All of Darkness, etc... which obviously isn't the case here.

Three separate components of my build being The Silver Crystal, Accelerator and Determination have already blatantly countered, regenerated from or survived existence erasure up to universal scales so this is just a really lazy argument. Lacerate is not working.

No they haven't actually. You didn't post a single thing about how the Silver Crystal could counter existence erasure. Accelerator's powers were already addressed through Liar and/or Lucky Coins and Determination is vastly inferior to Nightmare which works as a perfect counter against it.

With Chaos or Sailor Moon herself, neither of whom's power I have, sure.

I'm very wary of the limits, which should be apparent by the fact I've referenced them against you. My build was meticulously constructed to take advantage of them so you're not gonna catch me on a technicality.

Ummm you already did:

The reason I picked Chaos' mind instead of Usagi's (the actual wielder of the Crystal) is because Sailor Chaos is much more powerful than even Usagi's strongest future version as shown earlier, and the primary objective of all the Sailors was to prevent the Crystal from falling into the hands of Chaos and it's spawn. The Silver Crystal's main purpose is healing, restoration and life and brings peace, love and tranquility. But if the enemies had it they'd use its power for destruction.

This isn't just limited to destroying planets; Chaos with the Silver Crystal was going to create a new universe entirely.

You literally said you choose Chaos' mind because she is a more powerful user of the Sliver Crystal and then said she was going to create a new universe with it.

You try to address it in the Accelerator discussion but it seems your relying on Accelerator to keep me from taking The Silver Crystal. So here's my question, how is Accelerator blocking at skill he doesn't know, that he doesn't know is coming, that has a 100% chance of success all while his (Accelerator's) powers are turned off via The Liar or outright bypassed with probability?

She was on Nemesis about to get killed and then transformed to save her friends and the energy from her transformation was able to reach and threaten Death Phantom in The Rift. Reaching The Rift from another dimension and exerting it's influence there is literally the feat. It shows it doesn't cease function where time and space don't exist.

Cool

I've argued nothing over the limits insofar as what I'm capable of doing offensively with my build. Defensively is a different conversation, but there's no limit to hax resistance, which is why I'm going crazy with Accelerator since he's the perfect character to exploit that divide. "Kang and Faust's knowledge of time manipulation" is a copout since it hasn't given you a strategy that can overpower the Silver Crystal or anything similar. And my argument with the Crystal is that it'd override, overpower, or overrule the capabilities of the Throne of Golden Light; simply because it's infinitely more potent than devices that fundamentally disrespect the concept of time like Death Phantom's Black Crystal, which was toying with the space-time continuum passively.

You mean the non-existent conceptual nature of Death Phantom? I'm not overly relying on the Throne of Golden Light to neg your time manipulation. Kang's armor has that in spades by resisting the Time Stone. You'd need to pull universal+ level time manipulation to effect Kang's Armor which you can't do since Sailor Moon verse doesn't get that strong.

Potency isn't unrestricted, but Watcher signed up for this tourney himself using Date a Live characters, who almost all have hax that at the highest levels overpower the base reality warping defenses found in Astral Dresses. Which is another reason why I'm so curious about you losing your mind over Accelerator's vectors having feats of countering reality warping as if it's a foreign concept here.

You might want to reread that quote:

Watcher actually says "Idk if I'll say potency is unrestricted per say, if the time manipulation's scale ISN"T ABOVE PLANET LEVEL but freezes someone who can resist universal hax..." The Silver Crystal isn't planetary anything, you haven't shown that its only planetary in scale. In fact you go out of your way to show the Silver Crystal working on the scale of Nemesis (a solar system) so the whole thing is clearly above planet level.

You can tier your time manipulation as high as you want but potency is still capped at planetary for everything. That's been the same thing for the whole tourney.

It's still planetary just infinite. You'd be incapable of explaining the logic behind capping time manipulation at the AP and durability limits. So you still need to come up with some better scaling.

And planetary is the hax power limit too. Watcher even said so, you're just trying to skirt around the first part of his response where he said, "if the time manipulation's scale isn't above planetary", but I'm not relying on that. Kang's Armor no sold time manipulation from the time stone putting it well over the universal level in resistance, which is allowed. Since you haven't shown anything from the Silver Crystal above the universal level, then my resistance wins. If you're talking about tiering with potency, my defenses would be better too since the Silver Crystal doesn't appear to manipulate time on the conceptual level from the scans you've posted and I have defenses that block powers on the conceptual level.

Plus Alice's innate time stop resistance that exceeds that of the God's who control time/space.

Accelerator should have no problem reflecting Seizure and stealing your items instead. I don't think you understand how broken Accelerator is. He can install vectors into your power-set and control your abilities even if they're conceptual or reality warping. And his reflection is passive so imaginary vectors in this fight are a b*tch to argue against.

For proof of the former Accelerator was able to use his vectors to control Coronzon's magic and destroy the contract she made with a demon Qliphah Puzzle 545. (These contracts are spiritually binding and he's off-setting the magic abilities of the character who created Qliphah).

So you just posted a feat of Accelerator overpowering Coronzon....

"She had simply seen Accelerator forcefully stomp on the truck’s floor. That was all. But something like a shockwave radiated from that point and, when it passed through Qliphah Puzzle 545’s body, the contract with Coronzon – the thing inside her that had been driving her to act – was mercilessly shredded

She was freed from her bonds.

The #1 could not even manage the fundamental act of refining life force into magic power. Here, he had only manipulated some vectors to bend and gather the thinly distributed energy that was already there."

Coronzon, the being that overpowered Imagine Breaker and rivaled Othinus. Sounds planetary to me, but I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to spin it as Accelerator's vector manipulation can just affect beings and powers far stronger then himself by using their powers against them. Okay let's drive in.

Qliphah later showed Accelerator how to manipulate all abilities and magics using his vectors, which allowed him to defend himself against a Magic God. THIS is power manipulation. He'd be able to easily counter, reflect, and destroy powers that you use against him.

So where does it say 545 knows how to manipulate all abilities and magics? She gave him knowledge of the 78 tarot cards which forms the basis of magic in Index but that's irrelevant to any magic used outside of Index. Yes we are in a shared universe but that doesn't automatically mean that all magic and abilities are suddenly based around the Tarot Cards like Index. Also magic basis yes, but what about other esper abilities? Not everything is magic you know.

Also:

"His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.

“Tch!!”

The brown goddess had preserved her beauty even as her torso was blown away, but she finally clicked her tongue and pushed Accelerator off of her. This slightly diverted the spear’s trajectory so it only sliced off a tuft of her long silver hair."

Nephthys is stronger than Othinus and you're saying Accelerator injured her.... That's not Accelerator using Nephthys' power or attack against her, that's Accelerator literally harming universal+ level being with his vector manipulation. Sounds planetary to me.

So let's just say, I believe you and accept everything you're saying about Accelerator's powers (which I don't), that still doesn't help you. HCLW's barrier has feats showing it unaffected by a conceptual power controlling ability (already posted it when Cave tried to steal his shadow). So even with Accelerator manipulating powers, Nathan has resistance against that by having absorbed HCLW's powers.

Going back to Seizure, sorry but since I'm unaffected by power stealing, I guess there's nothing stopping me from taking the Silver Crystal is there? Want my items? Go ahead, they're infinitely duplicated on every clone. I literally cannot run out of them lol

You're going to have to show Accelerator manipulating the power-set of something beyond the conceptual level to even affect Nathan's power-set. Of course you'll probably post how he redirecting Corozon's Flaming Sword with its infinite possibilities but even that is just attack reflection. Nothing conceptual about it, or at least it seems from what you've posted about it.

Passive Vectors are cool and all but there's only one of you stuck inside a conceptual barrier playing chess while any number of other Alice's can instantly manipulate the probability of your powers working to 0.0%. Not just that, they can make sure, none of your powers ever hit Alice with 100% evasion and give every action her takes a 100% success rate. Hell I can manifest the concepts of evasion, accuracy, success and any other concept I need to bypass your vectors. I'll manifest the concept of vectors themselves and let you have fun with that.

Remember I have 666 Lucky Coins per single use with a single Alice body. That's 666 changed probabilities per in a single action.

No, it's too much for YOU, and thanks for admitting so. "How does that even remotely fit into the limits?" you ask? well because he's reflecting the attack. Accelerator's vectors reflect and redirect attacks simply by changing the direction they're going. He's manipulating the direction of the vector they occupy; a vector is an object with magnitude and direction through any point of space.

Well like you just showed above, his pushed Corozon's powers out and injured Neph, both feats well over planetary. And injuring Neph wasn't reflection, he twisted his vectors into a spear and stabbed her:

"It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.

His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear."

• A - Power and strength limits? ❌ He's not initiating the attack.

Yes, he created the attack that hurt Neph.

I thought you weren't going to get caught in a technicality?

I am so unmoved by Nightmare. Accelerator has also been able to reflect more than just attacks. He's destroyed conceptual contracts, reflected 11D teleportation and the powers of Magic Gods. The auto-reflector doesn't even come close, Accelerator can do more with his vectors that just reflect attacks too. That feat is a Nightmare weapon that had to physically tag HLCW.You would never get close enough to tag me with Accelerator trolling your vectors. He can also just destroy the weapon itself by manipulating it's internal vectors which he no longer needs physical contact to do post-Platinum Wings.

Perhaps you should re-read my post. It wasn't just a Nightmare weapon, it was a magic energy blast. The point I was making was that Nightmare bypassed not only something that supposed to automatically reflect incoming attacks and mental effect, bypassed magic immunity and also shattered someone that by the laws of its universe is indestructible even to the point that something that's supposed to pierce anything cannot pierce.

Sounds like Lucky Coin's probability is useless to me.

And the nail in the coffin is that Coronzon's right hand already expands and surpasses to "infinite possibilities" (she puts both hands together to unleash the sword).

How does being acausal affect manipulating probability? You either have a way to counter it or you don't. If you have a 100% chance of hitting, you hit, if you have a 100% chance of missing you miss. Simple as that.

Infinite Possibilities does not equal 100% probability. Like your Determination there are an infinite number of possibilities between 99% and 100%. 99.99999999999999 blah blah blah% still isn't 100%.

Your underselling Lucky Coins too. Did you forget that they can manifest concepts too? What's stopping me from manifesting the concept of death on you? Reflecting conceptual structures is cool, but what about the concept itself?

You'll have to post a feat of Accelerator negating actual probability manipulation with a 100% chance of success to prove your statement there.

Also wasn't Accelerate only able to redirect the Flaming Sword because 545 helped him? Was the Tarot Card knowledge permanently transferred or was it only with 545's assistance (I'm legit asking because I have no idea).

Magic God's attacks >>>> Lacerate if you needed anymore proof. Crowley's statement about severing bonds in conjunction with the Sephirah's existence tearing the world(universe) apart... a much greater existence than any in HCLW. Plus Othinus' Gungnir, the attack Flaming Swords is equated to, can already erase universes from existence so Lacerate gets reflected time and time again.

I'd agree that vector manipulation can redirect Lacerate, I never contended that. You're not taking into account everything else though. I have a literal infinite number of probability manipulation skills that are saying:

• "This Attack will hit 100%"
• "Your defense will fail 100%
• "This skill will work on you 100% of time"

PLUS an infinite number of clones telling your powers themselves, they no longer work.

You've shown Accelerate redirecting powers well beyond our tier and such but as I've also shown, my character already resisted power manipulation so what else do you have to offer?

Let's cut to the chase and ask the important question. Can Accelerator's powers stop a skill that turns off his powers with a 100% chance of success and do you have a feat showing it?

If despite going "beyond the conceptual level" the ability *can't* erase vectors then unfortunately he can't lie to the Accelerator powers. Considering Imagine Breaker's track record and effectiveness against the Accelerator I think this may have worked prior to Platinum Wings. But he's been able to survive attacks from other Magic Gods who despite being able to stomp him still haven't been able to erase or bypass his ability. I can also counter Final Fooler with Determination. If you lie to my powers to stop them from working I can just "hope" that they start working again. Or use Silver Crystal's future sight to anticipate a lie and TP you to lie to yourself.

So has Platinum Wings shown to be unaffected by Imagine Breaker or something? Looks like your trying to use Accelerator reflecting attacks from Magic Gods as a basis for him possibly not being affected by Imagine Breaker which clearly doesn't make sense since powers and resistance don't scale like that. So any feats of him shrugging off Imagine Breaker?

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. Liar isn't erasing vectors themselves from the universe, its tricking Accelerator's actual powers into believing they no longer work, thus they stop working. Determination just gets Lied away too if you wanna play that game. You're so focused on trying to TP Faust's mind that you forgot why he was actually chosen. With Faust I can see EVERY POSSIBILITY in this battle. There is literally nothing you can do that I'm not already aware of and have a counter planned for.

Now that we're on the subject of mind wrecking people, what's stopping me from Mind Fooling you? Liar has already been shown beyond the conceptual level and has Nightmare to give it an added Omph! so how would you defend against it? Certainly not with Accelerator's Vectors since they being "Lied" to already. So I'm curious how you'd handle that?

So if 1) Asriel has INFINITE attack power, and 2) Nightmare can only kill me permanently and destroy my SAVE file IF it one-shots me by instantly depleting my HP, and 3) Asriel'sinfinite attack power can not even do thatthen, 4) how the hell is Nightmare even relevant? Are you going to argue that your Nightmare-imbued attacks have AP infinitely over the limits? Because even if you did it wouldn't matter since Frisk could just dream his HP is maxed out again.

That's irrelevant since the attacks I'd be used would just one shot you. I'm hitting with full force while your defenses are bypassed. There's been nothing posted saying you'd survive existence erasure or any of the other abilities I showed. You're entirely reliant on Accelerator deflecting everything but I've already shown Alice has a way around that and that your counters simply aren't cutting it.

You're also getting dangerously close to those fiction-affecting-us-in-real-life arguments. The HCLW universe has the fictional characters in that universe playing the game Lucid Adventure. Undertale itself is the game, so Undertale = Lucid Adventure for all intents and purposes here. In other words (for the sake of the debate), me playing Undertale is the same as a HCLW character playing Lucid Adventure.

No that's not correct. Lucid Adventure is real. Its a real universe in its own right. Things can be taken from Lucid Adventure and come into the real world. The Laws of the world keep them separate. Zero convinced Sam Han to play Lucid Adventure only after she showed him he could take real diamonds out of the game and bring them into real life. Hell, Sam even created elements that don't exist and brought them into the real world.

I could go into this much further but that's a lot of spoilers I don't feel like giving out.

No Undertale can't "erase my memories" as a human because I'm real and it's a fictional game. But completing the genocide route and utterly destroying the game's universe is actually... pretty much the same thing when it comes to having a character and trying to play the routes again. Since I have a composite Undertale Determination (which results in saving) I think it's worth including an additional counter to Nightmare by pointing out Photoshop Flowey's ability to manipulate and destroy Frisk's SAVE files. Which should at worst be equivalent to what Nightmare does.

No they're not the same thing. Nothing effected you as the player, so nothing actually broke the 4th wall. Nightmare directly effects the player.

This can't be showed with scans, but when Flowey defeats you he crashes the game and blacks your computer screen. Photoshop Flowey had absorbed six human SOULs which logically gives him exponential determination over Frisk. Yet Frisk still won that fight by convincing the other SOULs to rebel against him.

Nightmare ain't holding a candle to Determination.

And yet none of that actually effects you. Photoshop Flowey "crashing" the game and making the screen go black is just a part of the Undertales game. Its programmed and scripted to happen in the game to make you the player get angry at the game, but its not actually effecting you in any way (aside from frustrating and making a keyboard flip). Its all just part of the game itself. Nightmare isn't programmed, its not supposed to exist, its a real glitch with real life consequences.

If you wanted to compare Determination to Nightmare if would be more like losing to Photoshop Flowey and all the data from your computer, phone, bank account, your entire online presence is deleted and still that's not as bad as Nightmare erasing your memories because that's something actually happening to you due to a game.

Yeah that's if you kill them with Nightmare.But Determination can refuse its own death to where it doesn't happen. You really shot yourself in the foot with the HP limitation Nightmare has. You're NEVER depleting my HP and it's *because* of Determination. Not only can it max out my health,it can reduce the damage I take and the power of your attacks by hoping. Then there's the infinite Asriel feat. And even if you erased my SAVE file I can come back.

Nah, you're just mixing things up. If the attack limit is planetary, and I hit you with a planetary attack, unless you defend against it, you're dead. Nightmare removes the defense part so you're taking that straight up planetary attack with nothing to save you. Determination just gets bypassed like every other defense Nightmare has torn right through. That's what it means to bypass all defenses, even those defenses that cannot be bypassed like invulnerability which Nightmare has a couple solid feats of bypassing.

Any possibility of Determination saving you would be seen and countered accordingly. For example, I could alter the probability of my attack hitting you to 100%, change the chances of a Critical Hit (which instantly depletes all your health) to 100%, drop your evasion to 0.0%, and give myself a 100% chance of success in killing you with one strike or even manifest the concept of death directly into you.

You're vastly underestimated how overpowered probability manipulation is when I can make any outcome a 100%

Lol I find it so amusing that you copy and pasted those scans directly from Falbium's Faust Respect Thread. I should probably warn you that its not a good idea to debate Faust's feats with me using that Respect Thread. I helped Falbium write it lol.

Webtoon scans are long as hell, and I was too lazy to make a separate imgur album when the feat I was looking for was already compiled. Sue me. The events portrayed and the context behind it remain unchallenged, so this quip is ultimately pointless.

I think the most amusing thing about your snide jest is your pretense to a knowledge that makes your arguments invincible or mine to a lack of knowledge, when that album remains the only actual example of telepathy in the series, which your next statements reinforce.

Perhaps you missed some points in that feat where Faust says he has "Layers upon Layers" of firewalls to prevent mind hacking. In addition, if you're going to attempt a telepathic attack on Faust, you're going to have to link minds at some point. That's mental suicide. Imagine being in the mind so someone who can see every possibility for every possible outcome? It would be like getting hit with Gojo's Unlimited Void lol. Have fun with that.

No, it wouldn't be like getting hit with Unlimited Void. No, telepathic assaults don't require mind links. And no, seeing "every" possibility or processing infinite amounts of information like a Faust, Yhwach or Gojo doesn't automatically make you resistant or immune to TP.

But I digress, you asked for more mental resistance feats so here you are:

It's hard to post all the scans since its lover the course of several chapters but Soul Cartel Chapter 103, 104,107 and 108, see's Mastema attempted to corrupt Faust's mind and soul by bringing Faust's old lover up from Purgatory, Gretchen. Faust had accidentally killed Gretchen's brother in a duel that ended up ruining Gretchen's life. It was Gretchen's forgiveness that allowed Faust to be victorious in his contract with the Arch-Devil Mephistopheles 500 years ago. Mastema manipulates Gretchen into saying that her forgiveness was a lie and that everything Faust fought for those 500 years ago, was a lie. Faust appears to be corrupted and controlled by Mastema. The Arch-Devil orders Faust to kill Gretchen which it appears he does but in fact it was Faust manipulating Mastema the entire time in order to save Gretchen and the her brother, the hidden hostage.

Now I'm sure you're wondering how powerful that TP feat is?

This was an extremely long way of saying "I don't have the feats so I'm pulling some bullshit out of my ass" because none of this is even telepathy at all. Telepathy implies that it's occurring in Faust or Mastema's mind, but this exchange was real and actually happened. Meaning at best Gretchen would've been an illusion, but considering it was repeatedly stressed that she was actually revived... that's not the case either.

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Mastema literally goes out of his way to explain why and how she was real. Her body was saved after her death 500 years ago but she wasn't able to reincarnate so she was kept in purgatory until he freed her and tried to use her to manipulate Faust.

Your explanation is missing a bit of context: For the readers, this sequence in Soul Cartel is just an exercise in a basic trope. Gretchen is Faust's "long lost lover" so to speak. After Mephisto's bet with God about depraving Faust and him drinking the youth potion, Faust and Gretchen were introduced to each other by Mephisto and they fell in love. Gretchen's brother hated their relationship. So he challenged Mephisto to a duel unaware that Mephisto was an Arch-Devil (demon royalty) because he was disguised as a musician. Mephisto killed Gretchen's brother by forcing Faust's hand (equipped with a sword) into his heart. But Gretchen forgave Faust even though this ruined her life and she put her trust in God because she couldn't be reincarnated.

The backstory of Gretchen and Faust, Soul Cartel 103.

Once Gretchen was brought back by Mastema, her role was basically to break Faust's spirit and resolve by telling him her forgiveness of his past actions and everything she knew about him was a lie. Mastema's plan was textbook prep and manipulation, you can call it a mental attack only in the sense that Mastema was trying to corrupt Faust by toying with his emotions and deceiving him. But he didn't use any telepathic abilities to do so... just Gretchen peddling falsehoods about their past and shattering everything he thought to be true about her and their history together (a key part of his character).

Gretchen Lying

Mastema's main goal was Faust's "depravity". In other words, causing him to abandon his morals and turn towards darkness. So he tried to coerce Faust into killing Gretchen after thinking Faust believed what she said. But obviously Faust saw through his plan and wasn't tricked by her lies. Pay attention to these next scans, as Faust pretends to kill Gretchen but stabs himself, and explains why Mastema's planned failed and how he was able to detect her lies. Within his explanation is further proof about Mastema's plan not being telepathy, as it's described as a "scheme" wherein Gretchen's presence was confirmed to be real and not an illusion or conjuration, hence her lies being actual statements and not an extension of any ability of Mastema's:

Gallery

Faust had the advantage of being closer to Gretchen than anyone else when they were alive, so he knew all of her traits, characteristics, and idiosyncrasies that made up her personality. Mastema ordered Gretchen to lie without giving off the natural humans signals of lying, which aroused Faust's suspicions because she didn't look like she was telling the truth either (confusing, i know) but it all makes sense in the end because Faust's entire character is supposed to be some big brain 300IQ genius. From there he knew that Mastema tried to deprave him "by stimulating his anger" so it didn't work precisely because he just remained calm.

Gallery

If Mastema had genuine TP, and his goal was depraving Faust, something he only needed to stimulate his anger to do, then summoning the real Gretchen or using her at all would've been pointless. So would be trying to convince him to kill her of his own free will. Antagonists with telepathic abilities would've just triggered those emotions in his brain remotely or hypnotized him to kill her against his will. But instead Mastema deliberated an elaborate scheme to trick which contradicts any notion of being able to actually influence his mind with a mental assault.

Not only that, we can directly contrast Mastema's epic fail at "depraving" someone with Chaos Spawn's ability to drive people to insanity, abandon their morals, and concede to darkness as a side effect of their powers. On a global scale at that; demonstrating in bold letters just how outclassed you are in this comparison.

So you pretty much just proved that my win condition is guaranteed to work, I can simply make Faust depraved with a thought and not have to jump through hoops trying to trick him with nonsensical lies to achieve the same effect.

Now I'm sure you're wondering how powerful that TP feat is? Well its hard to gauge since neither Faust nor Mastema are big into stats. They're prep and cunning type characters but I can give some insight into how strong Mastema actually is. In case you forgot, the Arch-Devil Mastema is 1/4 of the power needed to awaken Lucifer's Power, the same Lucifer that empowered Mephistopheles to destroy Gabermelck and his 12 universes. Now while attack power doesn't equate to things like TP and Soul steal, it does go to show the tier of power that Mastema is operating in.

And before you try to refute how strong Mastema is, remember that he transformed the landscape of the third level of Hell, an area equivalent to the size of the Earth. He literally transformed an area the size of Earth just to trap Faust. This level of power is further backed up by other statements saying Mephistopheles could easily destroy the Earth if he wanted to, so we know the Arch-Devils are extremely strong.

Ok yeah, the biggest dead giveaway that you were bullshitting your TP resistance argument is the fact that you're shamelessly attempting to scale it to Mastema being 1/4th of the key to awaken a multi-universal being, so soon after trying to get my characters DQ'd. Then you go and use his dimensional powers as a frame of reference for how strong you need his non-existent TP to be, and randomly throw in Mephisto being planet level (he's way stronger than Mastema by the way) as a last resort.

News flash Mass, attack potency and "tier of power" have jack shit to do with telepathy. I asked for TP feats and instead you gave me Mastema's best Aizen impression... and then implicitly scaled that to a multi-universal being, then to a characters planetary AP, both in contexts completely irrelevant to Mastema and Faust's interaction.

Mastema has 0 TP feats. He's never TP'd any character ever. Telepathy is literally not a part of his powerset, he just has dimensional abilities. Mastema creates gateways and is the gatekeeper of all the memories in the underworld. Transforming the landscape of the third level of hell is a dimensional or transmutation feat, which again has absolutely nothing to do with telepathy. I'm just shocked that you came at me with so much confidence only to drop your debating integrity by very obviously inventing an ability that a character does not have, just to scale that ability to give Faust a resistance that he does not have, just so you can stand a chance.

And I'm not addressing all that stuff with Constance and God Fooler because I made it abundantly clear that TP and soul manip resistance come from your mind, Faust. And the funny thing is none of that was telepathy either. Lol. So you were just scrambling for random feats for no reason.

Looks like you missed the part where I showed that Alice's clones aren't spawned. She starts out with her Infinite bodies. That's part of how Nathan's power works.

So looks like I've got the mind resistance stuff covered.

To top all that off though, even IF you somehow mind wrecked or soul wrecked one of the clones. That's a single entity. They aren't a hive mind. The clones can attack independent of Nathan and ANY of the clones could be the real Nathan at any time. So beating one or beating the "real" Nathan isn't going to work here.

That's not how the tourney works. Once the battle starts then you can begin time traveling. Inserting your clones and generating infinite clones at every point in time is a maneuver you can only do once the match begins. So they still have to be spawned, and I can TP you to stop you from cloning yourself or make all your clones fight each other. Unless you forgot that I can also see the future and travel to every point in time/space...? Going back to the past once the match begins to have clones when the battle starts (a paradox) wouldn't be an advantage for you.

Its funny that you say "street level tech" and yet you have no bases for that claim. You just say it like you know it for a fact which is flat out wrong. Every demon in that tournament was specially selected to beat Faust. That's the goal of the entire thing. Why would there be Street level anything in a tournament with stakes that high? And no, Faust himself certainly isn't street tier either.

How about the fact that that tech was utterly featless? I was being generous. It literally has no feats besides failing to work on Faust, so how would you prove that it's any level at all, let alone street level? Me calling it that was based on it's mechanics not it's potency. Only street level characters need gadgets for telepathy and there are many street level telepaths with the actual ability, who don't need to rely on hacking or technology to achieve the same results.

As you've seen above, Mastema already tried to corrupt Faust's mind and soul to no success. In fact, all that happened was Faust ended up trolling Mastema. But let's give you another good soul and mind resistance feat then.

Calling what Mastema did mind or soul manip is like saying if a kid lies to their parents about stealing cookies from the cookie jar, they just TP'd them and tricked their soul. You're really trying your absolute hardest to make something out of nothing and presenting a feat as something it's not with zero basis in order to give Mastema an ability he simply does not have. Just to give Faust a resistance he does not have, or at least, doesn't have on any provably relevant level. Because Mephisto's planetary DC would have nothing to do with another character's AP, and Mastema being 1/4th of Lucifer has nothing to do with his own power level since Lucifer's power is obviously greater than the sum of it's parts: both by feats and lore.

Remember how Nathan has Nightmare power? While Nightmare is an incredibly powerful buff, it comes at an enormous cost. You see, Nightmare will actually erode you mind and soul, turning you into nothing but a berserk monster.

Remember how this has nothing to do with your TP resistance because that exclusively comes from your mind?

In fact, since you yourself have no problem pushing defenses and resistances into the next tier, I'll do the same. Do you have anything that can bypass The Almighty's immortality? Mind and Soul attacks are useless. Even Nightmare's power can't even scratch him.

It's actually kind of funny that Roy called that "Simple Attacks" when its made by Zero with Nightmare lol. Just goes to show that even something that destroys indestructible items and breaks through concepts, can't hurt The Almighty. So how are you going to hurt Alice then???

A) Why would I need bypass your immortality? Every contender in this tournament at this point has no debatable way to be permanently put down under the constraints of the limits. Resisting existence erasure from conceptual and reality warping characters with powers way above planetary means you have to find another way to deal with them.

B) That means I can ask you the same question. How are you going to kill me when my mind is merged with the fabric of reality across all creation and possibilities? And when Determination has allowed me to come back from universal, reality-warping-based existence erasure? Keep in mind you're not allowed to use reality warping, and you're not allowed to be anything above planetary, so universal level abilities are out of the question. And since even abilities of those levels can't take me down, how would you kill me for good? If your plan is Nightmare based attacks which "conceptually bypass defenses", wouldn't that mean you're scaling Nightmare to >>>> universal reality warping??? Which means you should automatically be DQ'd even if feats of that level existed for it (they don't)?

C) My primary win conditions against you are simultaneous TP and soul manip, which you're naked against. They aren't my only option. I based my build around thwarting enemy advances and returning everything you throw at me, back at you. So if any of your attacks can kill me, then they should be able to kill you, because you're not overcoming the Accelerator.

So where does it say 545 knows how to manipulate all abilities and magics? She gave him knowledge of the 78 tarot cards which forms the basis of magic in Index but that's irrelevant to any magic used outside of Index. Yes we are in a shared universe but that doesn't automatically mean that all magic and abilities are suddenly based around the Tarot Cards like Index. Also magic basis yes, but what about other esper abilities? Not everything is magic you know.

This is such an insane way to discredit a clear feat. We've established Accelerator's vector manipulation works by him calculating different phenoms and things of all natures, learning them etc., and how he was vulnerable to strong enough magic attacks until Platinum Wings, where he learned the entire blueprint and framework of his universe (including magic) and treated everything similarly to reflect them all the same. At that point he could reflect reality warping—which I once again emphasize you still can't use—and somehow in your mind he can't counter your powers despite having familiarized himself with powers and reflected things that can achieve the same end result as your abilities? Just because ToAru is his universe, even though the shared universe stipulation was put in place specifically to avoid debates like this?

Not to mention to mention you wildly misinterpreted the Qliphah 545 feat. That instance is Accelerator gaining the knowledge and the power to interact with and off-set higher tier magics and concepts allowing him defenses against Magic God level characters. I literally already posted a separate feat earlier in the debate showing the exact moment he learned to reflect magic unfailingly and this same passage answers your question about how he'd fair against esper abilities.

When Accelerator destroyed the angels:

"If he had viewed magic as a different form of esper powers, he never could have accomplished this. If he had made that mistaken detour in his understanding, he would have failed to comprehend its true essence, failed to grasp the vectors, and been injured.

But he no longer viewed it that way."

He views all abilities the same to control them all the same. Meaning you're no exception.

Then there are Accelerator's imaginary vectors. Reminder of how they work...

So Accelerator can control your magic or use imaginary vectors to control any other metaphysical/conceptual powers that you have.

Also:

"His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.

“Tch!!”

The brown goddess had preserved her beauty even as her torso was blown away, but she finally clicked her tongue and pushed Accelerator off of her. This slightly diverted the spear’s trajectory so it only sliced off a tuft of her long silver hair."

Nephthys is stronger than Othinus and you're saying Accelerator injured her.... That's not Accelerator using Nephthys' power or attack against her, that's Accelerator literally harming universal+ level being with his vector manipulation. Sounds planetary to me.

Mass demonstrating her illiteracy wasn't on my bingo card for today. Why don't you try reading the passage again, slowly this time.

"An explosive noise burst out" that was "not the sound of the violent gale Accelerator had been trying to unleash" and this noise was from "the invisible power that covered every part of the world", said power which Accelerator used his vectors to twist into a spear and strike Nephthys' torso with. But according to you, that's Accelerator's OWN power, which the excerpt you post explicitly contradicts....

And what power would this be you ask... well it's the invisible power Qliphah 545 was talking about just sentences earlier that covers the world. You know, where those pesky 78 cards are found that you were talking about.

If Accelerator can use his vectors to reflect something like this into Nephthys and injure her then why couldn't he do the same to you? If not with different concepts of power and aspects of the universe then at the bare minimum with your attacks? You seem to know how powerful she is... this is very impressive.

So let's just say, I believe you and accept everything you're saying about Accelerator's powers (which I don't), that still doesn't help you. HCLW's barrier has feats showing it unaffected by a conceptual power controlling ability (already posted it when Cave tried to steal his shadow). So even with Accelerator manipulating powers, Nathan has resistance against that by having absorbed HCLW's powers.

Nathan has shown resistance to conceptual power control on a pathetically weaker level than what Accelerator is capable of, so you're still susceptible to being dominated by me. HLCW's barrier was unaffected by Cave's Shadow Steal, which steals powers by taking their shadow first. Whereas Accelerator destroyed Coronzon's contract and and redirected the invisible power of the universe into a Magic God, Nephthys, who can destroy the universe with her mere presence unless she takes precautions to prevent that from happening. If you really think HLCW's barrier can stand up to Accelerator controlling it's internal vectors or the vectors around it to dissipate it, you're sorely mistaken. Friendly reminder that vectors just determine the direction that something is going in and Accelerator has no bearing on the actual power of attacks he can reflect or powers he can hijack, since his ability is fundamentally just reflecting them, deflecting them, or redirecting them. But at its highest applications he can control the powers of even universal+ reality warpers, overriding their abilities with solely his vectors, on any scale... so all your defenses are meaningless.

Going back to Seizure, sorry but since I'm unaffected by power stealing, I guess there's nothing stopping me from taking the Silver Crystal is there? Want my items? Go ahead, they're infinitely duplicated on every clone. I literally cannot run out of them lol

You're going to have to show Accelerator manipulating the power-set of something beyond the conceptual level to even affect Nathan's power-set. Of course you'll probably post how he redirecting Corozon's Flaming Sword with its infinite possibilities but even that is just attack reflection. Nothing conceptual about it, or at least it seems from what you've posted about it.

Passive Vectors are cool and all but there's only one of you stuck inside a conceptual barrier playing chess while any number of other Alice's can instantly manipulate the probability of your powers working to 0.0%. Not just that, they can make sure, none of your powers ever hit Alice with 100% evasion and give every action her takes a 100% success rate. Hell I can manifest the concepts of evasion, accuracy, success and any other concept I need to bypass your vectors. I'll manifest the concept of vectors themselves and let you have fun with that.

Remember I have 666 Lucky Coins per single use with a single Alice body. That's 666 changed probabilities per in a single action.

The rebuttal I'd give to this is largely predicated on my win condition, which also mostly renders the remainder of our conversation null and void. I never argued power stealing in the first place so being unaffected by it doesn't move me. What I did argue is something you have no counter to which blows up your whole cloning strat. The TP incaps you and wins the fight for me. Stealing the Silver Crystal wouldn't work because you wouldn't know how to use it and I can just take it back. Plus the Crystal is fused with me.

Accelerator's vectors reflecting the invisible power and universal forces away from himself into Nephthys is more than enough... you're putting way too much stock into this conceptual shit when countering reality warping on scales that high would blanket individual concepts on the interpersonal battle scales that we see in HCLW.

I'll counter the probability manip part when we get to that section again.

Well like you just showed above, his pushed Corozon's powers out and injured Neph, both feats well over planetary. And injuring Neph wasn't reflection, he twisted his vectors into a spear and stabbed her:

"It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.

His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear."

• A - Power and strength limits? ❌ He's not initiating the attack.

Yes, he created the attack that hurt Neph.

I thought you weren't going to get caught in a technicality?

And I thought you could read? "His vector control ability twisted it"

"twisted it"

"it"

So when you read that the first dozen times and posted it as evidence against me, thinking this was your gotcha moment, you thought this was Accelerator's vectors... reflecting his vectors?? lmao

Perhaps you should re-read my post. It wasn't just a Nightmare weapon, it was a magic energy blast. The point I was making was that Nightmare bypassed not only something that supposed to automatically reflect incoming attacks and mental effect, bypassed magic immunity and also shattered someone that by the laws of its universe is indestructible even to the point that something that's supposed to pierce anything cannot pierce.

Perhaps you should re-read the already sufficient counters I've made to this, in that these feats—while they assert Nightmare's infallibility in-universe—don't make it completely unfailing in any context against any level of counter resistance or immunity. And the reason why would be scaling. Let's compare and contrast the different levels of scaling between Nightmare and Accelerator to see which ability would overcome the other. This paragraph of yours sums it up quite well and I'll try to be succinct (emphasis on try) with some paragraph of scaling of my own.

"Nightmare bypassed not only something that's supposed to automatically reflect incoming attacks and mental effects" (1) "bypassed magic immunity" [in-verse] (2) "shattered someone that by the laws of its universe is indestructible (3) said someone/thing is indestructible to the point something that can "pierce anything" can't pierce it

Right out the gate I wanna showcase that these feats and their line of reasoning by you, while it makes Nightmare impressive, rely a lot on overcoming in-verse NLF abilities. If Nightmare bypassed "magic immunity" then this "immunity" is not truly infallible, just a high level of resistance to pretty much everything but Nightmare itself, so you would still need feats separately for the "immunity" for us to determine where the cut-off is. Same thing applies to the "shattering something that's indestructible by the laws of its universe" feat. You need piercing feats to showcase the durability of said indestructible person or thing in relation to the level of piercing it tanked (the object that can pierce anything) to give us a set frame of reference for how potent Nightmare is. You might disagree with this and use the terminology of things like "immunity", and "laws of the universe" and "pierce anything" to argue that Nightmare is 100% effective against anything no matter what it is or what tier it is, but the problem would be it still falls drastically short of the level of Accelerator, in terms of what the Accelerator can overcome in it's own universe as well.

So in cross universe debates, whenever you're making comparison between two abilities or strengths, feats reign supreme. Feats are the the common ground that act as the point of comparison. With that being said let's compare Nightmare's scaling to mine. At the base level (1) Accelerator automatically reflects anything including mental effects but also things that transcend dimensional barriers, and it's reflected things specifically designed to overcome it, meaning Nightmare first point is matched, (2) Accelerator is considered beyond "Aeons" - in ToAru, magic is categorized into different Aeons, and higher Aeons have a stronger priority over lower classes; by Platinum Wings and with the Clonoth Accelerator transcends this system entirely which make his ability a magic or power negation that's infallible in-verse (3) Reflecting Flaming Sword, which separate from it's scaling above Gungnir and infinite speed/probability/causality description, has feats of surpassing Imagine Breaker(!!!) (4) Imagine Breaker is one of the most famous abilities in ToAru, utmost power negation

One of it's best feats is destroying Gungnir after Othinus throws it. Here's why that's more impressive than anything Nightmare has done:

Those number points are the rules in the ToAru verse. Things which the multiversal creation level deities who can warp reality on scales infinite dimensional tiers above our comprehension are still subjected to; simply because levels of power are superseded by higher echelons of it.

Touma breaks those rules with Imagine Breaker:

This was long so to summarize everything you see here...

• Your argument is that Nightmare bypassed automatic reflection, bypasses defenses and immunity, and among it's best feats of this is shattering someone so indestructible by law that it an object that pierces anything couldn't pierce it. Scaling Nightmare conceptually above an object that can pierce anything meaning it can overcome Accel's vector manip.
• My argument is that in spite of that it can't overcome Accel's vector manip, Accelerator can control vectors in any concept, he's beyond the system that governs magic and esper abilities in his verse and completely unbound by rules of nature, and his best feat of this is reflecting something that overcome negation so potent it interfered with the ability of a Magic God, an action alone that contradicts the limitation of Gods vs Humans, the lore of the verse, and the mechanics of the powers.

It's a bit confusing, but Accel scales a whole tier above Nightmare. Nightmare is at best as strong as Flaming Sword conceptually. But a key difference is that FS is also universal minimum, so even non-conceptually (in the realm of the physical power of your attacks) you're dwarfed by many tiers of something Accel can still reflect.

How does being acausal affect manipulating probability? You either have a way to counter it or you don't. If you have a 100% chance of hitting, you hit, if you have a 100% chance of missing you miss. Simple as that.

Infinite Possibilities does not equal 100% probability. Like your Determination there are an infinite number of possibilities between 99% and 100%. 99.99999999999999 blah blah blah% still isn't 100%.

Your underselling Lucky Coins too. Did you forget that they can manifest concepts too? What's stopping me from manifesting the concept of death on you? Reflecting conceptual structures is cool, but what about the concept itself?

You'll have to post a feat of Accelerator negating actual probability manipulation with a 100% chance of success to prove your statement there.

Also wasn't Accelerate only able to redirect the Flaming Sword because 545 helped him? Was the Tarot Card knowledge permanently transferred or was it only with 545's assistance (I'm legit asking because I have no idea).

I'd agree that vector manipulation can redirect Lacerate, I never contended that. You're not taking into account everything else though. I have a literal infinite number of probability manipulation skills that are saying:

• "This Attack will hit 100%"
• "Your defense will fail 100%
• "This skill will work on you 100% of time"

PLUS an infinite number of clones telling your powers themselves, they no longer work.

You've shown Accelerate redirecting powers well beyond our tier and such but as I've also shown, my character already resisted power manipulation so what else do you have to offer?

Let's cut to the chase and ask the important question. Can Accelerator's powers stop a skill that turns off his powers with a 100% chance of success and do you have a feat showing it?

Yes, mass, he quite literally has a feat of doing exactly that. Magic God attacks always have a 100% chance of hitting and killing you, even when a they've been altered by a spell to manipulate their probability from 100% success to 100% failure or 0.0% success. Magic Gods being able to alter reality across the universe at will, through every point in time, can just sift through infinite possibility and pick the opposite outcome of the one with 100% failure to STILL gain 100% success...

....So retire Lucky Coins and their whole argument.

So has Platinum Wings shown to be unaffected by Imagine Breaker or something? Looks like your trying to use Accelerator reflecting attacks from Magic Gods as a basis for him possibly not being affected by Imagine Breaker which clearly doesn't make sense since powers and resistance don't scale like that. So any feats of him shrugging off Imagine Breaker?

Yes. Toaru Majutsu No Index volume 20. Accel's much weaker Black Wings couldn't be negated by Imagine Breaker so Touma had to physically pull on the wings to make him miss so he wouldn't die.

Note: He couldn't negate White Wings either and had an even harder time trying to divert/escape from it. Touma is one of the few characters in-verse who can beat Accelerator, and it's literally always because of plot armor. Platinum Wings reflecting Coronzon's Flaming Sword when that same attack completely annihilated Touma's right hand (Imagine Breaker) is more than enough proof that in a cross-universe setting, Accel scales an extra tier above something that already overcomes power negation.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. Liar isn't erasing vectors themselves from the universe, its tricking Accelerator's actual powers into believing they no longer work, thus they stop working. Determination just gets Lied away too if you wanna play that game. You're so focused on trying to TP Faust's mind that you forgot why he was actually chosen. With Faust I can see EVERY POSSIBILITY in this battle. There is literally nothing you can do that I'm not already aware of and have a counter planned for.

Now that we're on the subject of mind wrecking people, what's stopping me from Mind Fooling you? Liar has already been shown beyond the conceptual level and has Nightmare to give it an added Omph! so how would you defend against it? Certainly not with Accelerator's Vectors since they being "Lied" to already. So I'm curious how you'd handle that?

Chaos being fused with the Cauldron can also see every possibility since that's where possibilities are literally born. And the Silver Crystal has already summoned power and advice from it's future selves despite this conventionally being blocked by a paradox. It's not an advantage for you. My TP strat holds up under scrutiny... so that supplants every other argument you make about mental abilities.

The Liar clearly doesn't have the feats to affect something even beyond the scope of power-negation-resistant abilities, so let's transition into discussing Determination since you brought it up...

Da Video Game Mechanics

That's irrelevant since the attacks I'd be used would just one shot you. I'm hitting with full force while your defenses are bypassed. There's been nothing posted saying you'd survive existence erasure or any of the other abilities I showed. You're entirely reliant on Accelerator deflecting everything but I've already shown Alice has a way around that and that your counters simply aren't cutting it.

I wasn't going to dignify this with a response because I deadass posted several feats of surviving universal existence erasure but I'll guess this is an opportunity to repost some more?

First there's Determination surviving Asriel erasing the game universe. Then more impressively there's Lambda Usagi using the SC to regenerate after being erased in the Cauldron with Chaos

Gallery

Keep in mind the SC specifically breaks down all Crystals but Usagi's remained. And Chaos was functionally incapacitated for the time being.

No that's not correct. Lucid Adventure is real. Its a real universe in its own right. Things can be taken from Lucid Adventure and come into the real world. The Laws of the world keep them separate. Zero convinced Sam Han to play Lucid Adventure only after she showed him he could take real diamonds out of the game and bring them into real life. Hell, Sam even created elements that don't exist and brought them into the real world.

I could go into this much further but that's a lot of spoilers I don't feel like giving out.

No they're not the same thing. Nothing effected you as the player, so nothing actually broke the 4th wall. Nightmare directly effects the player.

And yet none of that actually effects you. Photoshop Flowey "crashing" the game and making the screen go black is just a part of the Undertales game. Its programmed and scripted to happen in the game to make you the player get angry at the game, but its not actually effecting you in any way (aside from frustrating and making a keyboard flip). Its all just part of the game itself. Nightmare isn't programmed, its not supposed to exist, its a real glitch with real life consequences.

If you wanted to compare Determination to Nightmare if would be more like losing to Photoshop Flowey and all the data from your computer, phone, bank account, your entire online presence is deleted and still that's not as bad as Nightmare erasing your memories because that's something actually happening to you due to a game.

Ngl this is really stupid. I'm sorry. Lucid Adventure is a real universe inside a fictional story. The real world that things from Lucid Adventure can enter is still a fictional one. It is the world of Hardcore Leveling Warrior which is not real. Undertale is not a fictional game. It's a real one with a fictional universe inside. So same as Hardcore Leveling Warrior, Undertale has a self contained story and the in-verse game mechanics break the 4th wall of that story and the confines of it's own fictional universe.

Arguing that Nightmare's equivalent can only be something that affects my phone, bank account and online presence in the REAL world is just desperate and violates several fallacies. Nightmare only affects fictional characters and doesn't do any of that stuff either...

Nah, you're just mixing things up. If the attack limit is planetary, and I hit you with a planetary attack, unless you defend against it, you're dead. Nightmare removes the defense part so you're taking that straight up planetary attack with nothing to save you. Determination just gets bypassed like every other defense Nightmare has torn right through. That's what it means to bypass all defenses, even those defenses that cannot be bypassed like invulnerability which Nightmare has a couple solid feats of bypassing.

? So why even bother posing the hypothetical question "how come Nightmare doesn't automatically one-shot everyone in-verse?" ??? You volunteered that explanation, not me.

by doing so you implied that Nightmare has limits this just directly contradicts it. My health points are infinite, even if you bypassed the concept of defense entirely and I was always hit the full force of the planetary attack to my health points, I can't die.

The probability stuff was addressed.

When you replied you told me that my post was too long so I've condensed a lot of your counters, and this section is the least relevant part of our debate so I put it last and only focused on the important things. It'll also help readers to avoid seeing us go in circles since many of our arguments are dependent on other things we're arguing about being true.

I'm sorry but that doesn't seem to show Chaos is conceptual in nature. Disembodied part of the Cauldron, sure, but I'm not seeing anything that suggests a conceptual nature.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? I'm so confused as to what you're asking. I truly don't think this is meant to be that complicated... You know what the concept of "chaos" is, the word, and what is means in this context based on the explanations I gave between my two posts. Chaos is a being that embodies that word and that concept. It's not a physical or tangible thing, nor is it a spirit, and it's always existed. The gist of the Sailor Guardians is promoting love, peace, justice and order, and Chaos (the character) was the amalgam of all the adversities and villains they faced in the universe. It's fused with the core of their birthplace of creation. How exactly would it be anything other than a conceptual being...?

So why can't I just erase the concept of Chaos' existence like I've said a dozen times already? I haven't seen anything suggesting I can't so, winning? I'm sure you'll try to prevent that with Accelerator or Determination but as you'll see below, that's not going to save you.

What the hell is the difference between regular existence erasure and "erasing the concept" of someone's existence? I think you just think that sounds more impressive. Existence erasure isn't working here. Chaos regenerated in the Cauldron and then there's Determination, Accelerator, Silver Crystal. Each three things with their own feats against it.

Okay, you're mind is a galaxy, so what? You can exist as a disembodied star fetus and yet nothing in that is stopping me from having 100% success in erasing you. I'll use a Lucky Coin to manifest the concept of your existence and cut it.

"So what?" sooo you'd be over the limits to erase it. Also if I didn't have a concept of existence before Lucky Coin manifested one, then wouldn't cutting it after you manifest it return is back to square one?

You're right, Chaos is not a concept, that's clear. Having high levels of energy, matter, space and time manipulation does not mean you have jurisdiction over those things. That's insane. Any of us can name dozens of characters that poop of Sailor Moon's level of energy, space, time manipulation and yet they don't have "Jurisdiction" over space/time, matter and energy. There is literally no correlation there.

Dozens of characters that are abstract and represent a concept of something they're embodying like The Endless (Death, Dream, Destiny, Despair etc.)? If not then sure, there's no correlation. But if you agree those characters are conceptual because they embody/represent the concept of their name which is reflected by their abilities then you have no argument against Chaos. It's literally the same thing. These characters are not uncommon in fiction at all.

And if you must know, I might have the only character capable to destroying a galaxy within the rules. Since when has Alice been a single character to you? She is literally an infinite character. She starts with an infinite number of clones that continue to increase themselves infinitely. What do you think would happen if the Galaxy Cauldron was hit with an INFINITE number of planetary attacks at the exact same point in time? Poof, no more Galaxy Cauldron. And I can do this perfectly within the rules since each individual's power is still only planetary, I'm just doing it an infinite number of times all at the same time.

I'm amused by your creativity, but this argument really only shows you haven't been paying attention to everything I've told you about the Cauldron. Because how would infinitely repeating planetary attacks destroy something that is essentially an infinitely repeating Big Bang... and the Cauldron was stated as being indestructible in-universe even to characters that have infinite energy and universal feats. Destroying the Cauldron would require destroying the entire Sailor Moon fictional setting, which is at least in infinite multiversal feat based on it's possible and potential universes, timelines, dimensions etc. An entire level of infinity greater than what your planning.

The only being to ever resist one of Constant's lies was Roy Han and that's because he has The Almighty. Things like mental resistance don't factor in to your belief if something is real or not. Its not you that's targeted anyway, its your powers (as I've already explained a couple times now). Final Fooler literally stripped HCLW of his conceptual level defenses. How is that not applicable to doing the exact same thing to you?

Even IF you are a concept, (which I haven't seen anything supporting), I can cut through Concepts and Nightmare bypasses conceptual defenses so that's not going to help you here.

It's a broken ability, just an NLF-ish one. The things that you've successfully lied to pale in comparison to what you're up against here. You yourself described The Liar as power manipulation, which is something Accel himself has feats of doing to higher beings than this tourney. So why am I to believe that it would work on him when you've never shown anything remotely close to lying to universal reality warpers, shutting their powers off? Like undoing Coronzon's magic? If you could successfully produce a feat like that then you'd STILL only be peers with Accelerator, so how are we supposed to know which power is superior? In other words, why can't I use vectors to disable Final Fooler and stop it from working?

You never actually posted feats of cutting any specific concept either btw.

Here's the problem with that though. Its the spawn that started in the Cauldron and traveled across space and time, not Chaos.

The Spawn are extensions of Chaos...... what are you saying

Sure, there are plenty of really nice feats showing the manipulation of those powers, but do any of them actually really control time, or space or darkness, etc...

I want you to take your time and read this sentence again slowly

If you're calling those feats, controlling, then its limited control over a certain area. When you say control, I think of that as controlling ALL of space, ALL of Time, All of Darkness, etc... which obviously isn't the case here.

?????????????????????? I literally posted feats of the Spawn and Phantom's Black Crystal warping ALL of space and time?? u know what, im posting feats again full screen cuz this is CRAZY that u dared to say this

You literally said you choose Chaos' mind because she is a more powerful user of the Sliver Crystal and then said she was going to create a new universe with it.

[...]

The Silver Crystal isn't planetary anything, you haven't shown that its only planetary in scale. In fact you go out of your way to show the Silver Crystal working on the scale of Nemesis (a solar system) so the whole thing is clearly above planet level.

I only have Chaos' mind and knowledge, I don't have Chaos or Usagi's actual power or body, which is necessary to perform those universal feats and withstand their effects on me. The knowledge is useful for the spells and abilities I can access, I can't use them at the scale of the characters in verse because I'm not as powerful as they are.

You try to address it in the Accelerator discussion but it seems your relying on Accelerator to keep me from taking The Silver Crystal. So here's my question, how is Accelerator blocking at skill he doesn't know, that he doesn't know is coming, that has a 100% chance of success all while his (Accelerator's) powers are turned off via The Liar or outright bypassed with probability?

I know it's coming because I can see all futures with Chaos' mind and the Crystal and I countered the probability stuff multiple times already. And you're not turning off my powers if anything I'm turning off yours.

You can tier your time manipulation as high as you want but potency is still capped at planetary for everything. That's been the same thing for the whole tourney.

And planetary is the hax power limit too. Watcher even said so, you're just trying to skirt around the first part of his response where he said, "if the time manipulation's scale isn't above planetary", but I'm not relying on that. Kang's Armor no sold time manipulation from the time stone putting it well over the universal level in resistance, which is allowed. Since you haven't shown anything from the Silver Crystal above the universal level, then my resistance wins. If you're talking about tiering with potency, my defenses would be better too since the Silver Crystal doesn't appear to manipulate time on the conceptual level from the scans you've posted and I have defenses that block powers on the conceptual level.

Plus Alice's innate time stop resistance that exceeds that of the God's who control time/space.

The flow of time doesn't have a "potency"; the concept of potency applies to physical attacks, so how would you determine how "potent" a time manipulating ability is other than scaling above characters resistances, which the Silver Crystal has done in spades? The only other hax limit that's applicable to time manipulation is scale of the area it effects, aka its range.

I've definitely shown multiple feats for the Silver Crystal affecting characters with universal+ time resistance. It scales infinity above Sailor Pluto and the Dark Crystal for one, which has feats of passively warping all of space-time in its verse. Something as impressive as anything Kang or the Time Stone has ever done.

The God's who control time and space don't have any feats beyond that, so Alice very much gets stomped by the Silver Crystal's time manipulation.

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