High PYP 2.0 Finals: Sly vs EmperorThanos (Voting Open)

Martian Manhunter, also known as J'onn J'onzz and John Jones, is a superhero from the planet Mars and the last surviving member of his race. A martian holocaust killed his wife and daughter, nearly driving him mad, until he was brought to Earth in an accident caused by scientist Saul Erdel. His natural abilities include super-strength, super-speed, invulnerability, flight, shape-shifting, intangibility and telepathy. He has been a member of almost every incarnation of the Justice League of America. Although he holds great reverence for his homeworld, he has come to greatly respect his adopted world as well and protects it as his home. In his secret identity, to blend into humanity, he is a gritty hard-boiled police officer.

-DC wikia

As you can tell J'onn is a martian which gives him an array of abilities due t his Martian physiology. He has physicals that can rival that of Superman. On top of that he posses several other abilities, which makes him an extremely dangerous opponents do deal with.

• Superhuman strength
• Superhuman durability
• Superhuman speed
• Telepathy
• Telekinesis
• Intangibility
• Phasing
• Regeneration
• Invisibility
• Shape sifting
• Heat Vision

Speed

Martian Manhunter is easily FTL. He isf one of the few people in the DC universe that has matched flash in combat.

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Strength

J'onn has Superman like physicals. He is just as strong as Superman and as fought superman level opponents on multiple occasions.

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Telepathy/Telekenisis

MMH also posses strong TP and TK. While the latter is not something he uses often, the former is probably his most dangerous ability. His telepathy is vast, he can use it from Earth to Mars and towards many people at once. He has even over powered other powerful telepaths such as Despero.

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Phasing and other abilities

J'onn pretty much has complete control of his molecules. He is able to phase, shapeshift, turn invisible, regenerate etc.

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Sasuke Uchiha is one of the last surviving members of Konohagakure's Uchiha clan. After his older brother, Itachi, slaughtered their clan, Sasuke made it his mission in life to avenge them. He is added to Team 7 upon becoming a ninja and, through competition with his rival and best friend, Naruto Uzumaki, Sasuke starts developing his skills. Dissatisfied with his progress, he defects from Konoha so that he can acquire the strength needed to have his revenge. His years of seeking vengeance become increasingly demanding and irrational and isolates him from others, leading him to become an international criminal. After proving instrumental in ending the Fourth Shinobi World War and being redeemed by Naruto, Sasuke decides to return to Konoha and dedicates his life to helping protect the village and its inhabitants.

Naruto Wikia

Sasuke posses many different abilities that revolves around the manipulation of chakra. He was a natural born genius and thanks to being an Uchiha had the sharingan. Through the show he gained several upgrades that kept him on par with Naruto

• Superhuman strength
• Superhuman durability
• Superhuman speed
• Genjutsu
• Taijutsu
• Ninjutsu
• Dojutsu.

Speed

Sasuke posses very good combat speed. He is able to keep up with Naruto in this regard and is one of the fastest people in the Naruto universe. Sasuke also posses teleportation .

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Durability

Sasuke is also extremely durable. He has tanked some of the most powerfull attacks in the Naruto verse. On top of that he posses the susanoo which protects him from almost anything.

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Dojutsu

Sasuke posses both a mangekyo sharingan and a rinnegan. This gives him access to a whole lot of abilities that would take a long time to mention. But here is a list of his techniques

1. Amaterasu
2. Amaterasu: Flame Wrapping Fire
3. Amenotejikara
4. Animal Path
5. Asura Path
6. Binding Snake Glare Spell
7. Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi
8. Blaze Release: Susanoo Kagutsuchi
9. Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama
10. Chibaku Tensei (Manga only)
11. Chidori
12. Chidori Current
13. Chidori Senbon
14. Chidori Sharp Spear
15. Coercion Sharingan
16. Cursed Seal of Heaven
17. Demonic Illusion: Mirage Crow
18. Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique
19. Deva Path
20. Evil Releasing Method
21. Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique
22. Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
23. Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
24. Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
25. Genjutsu: Sharingan
26. Hidden Shadow Snake Hands
27. Human Path
28. Indra's Arrow (Manga only)
29. Kirin
30. Lion Combo
31. Majestic Attire: Susanoo
32. Manipulated Shuriken Technique
33. Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades
34. Moonlight
35. Naka Shrine Pass Technique
36. Naraka Path
37. Orochimaru-Style Body Replacement Technique
38. Outer Path
39. Pachinko Technique (Anime only)
40. Peregrine Falcon Drop (Anime only)
41. Preta Path
42. Sasuke Uchiha's Space–Time Dōjutsu
43. Scorch Release: Halo Hurricane Jet Black Arrow Style Zero
44. Shadow Clone Technique
45. Shadow Shuriken Technique
46. Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
47. Six Paths Technique
48. Six Paths Yin Power
49. Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei
50. Strong Fist
51. Summoning Technique (Hawk, Snake)
52. Summoning: Lightning Flash Blade Creation
53. Susanoo
54. Susanoo: Captive Slash
55. Susanoo: Chidori (Manga only)
56. Susanoo: Crush
57. Susanoo: Fist
58. Sword of Kusanagi: Chidori Katana

As you can see he posses a lot of them.

Yeah unfortunately you get taken out like everyone else I have faced so far, TP. This will work on all 3 of your teams members . I know Aquaman has TP of his own but he is no where near the level of MMH,

He has already used it against Wonder Woman and Cyborg in the past.

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Here he uses it against the Justice League to make them believe they are fighting him. In this instance he was just trying to stall these guys. While here is going to for the win. As you can see he uses it against both Cyborg and Wonder Woman here.

As for aquaman, MMH has overpower extremely powerful tp users. One example is against new 52 despero

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Here he absolutely destroys Despero with TP. Despero is a pretty powerful telepath in his own right. Though the new 52 incarnation is not that strong.

Little more tricky because J'onn can't use TP here. Orion does have full knowledge but as SFW stated in my last match, people in the same universe have their knowledge. So MMH knows who Orion is and is familiar with his abilities and morals.

With that, Ashrym's team will be out right from the start so we have a two vs one, in my teams favour. Now I believe that MMH's verstality with the aid of Sasuke's plethora of techniques will give my team the win.

Some examples of his verstality

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1. takes on the the entire Justice league at once. Using heat vision, phasing and shape shifting
2. Fights the entire Justice league including Orion, using his shapeshifting. Malefic is there as well but all he is doing is using MMH's body.
3. Takes on Superboy prime, first using shapeshifting then phasing through his heat vision before displaying a stircking feat of knocking him away.

Sasuke can distract him with Amaterasu

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An ever burning fire that only goes out if the target is destroyed or if Sasuke wills it to.

Orion will be dealing with ranged attacks from Sasuke whilst MMH takes him upclose. Which will kill him eventually.

For the first time in the tourney, both of my perks actually matter.

Mind Tricks Won't Work On Me: This comes in handy when fighting telepaths/magicians like Martian Manhunter or Aquaman. This essentially takes one of the main ways to incapacitate Orion of off the table. This provides a huge advantage considering how much of MMH's offensive is based on telepathy.

Detailed Info: This however is important because it forms what I like to call the Information Combination a trinity formed from the Motherbox's near infinite source of knowledge, Orion's tactical expertise, and detailed info on his enemy. Although the participants of this battle should know each as they were all a part of the JLA at one point or another, (Or at least MMH should know Orion since they are both from the Pre-52 universe, and Wonder Woman has encountered a version of Orion) this gives me the advantage as I know what my opponents are capable of and what are their weakness are. Some important pieces of knowledge that this provides are: MMH's fire weakness, Cyborg's ability to interface with the Motherbox, his sonics, Wonder Woman's God Mode and her equipment etc...

Dog of War: This isn't actually a perk but it might as well be. Unlike most other League members Orion doesn't have issue with cutting loose. And that's with the Motherbox calming him down. If someone were to try to disable the Motherbox ( Yeah I'm looking at you Cyborg) then Orion's "infinite rage" would over take him. Just for reference, Orion when pissed has ripped Darkseid's heart out while generating an inferno that was able to sweep away the Justice League as if the were flies. He has also leveled an entire starfleet, beat his best friend (Lightray) into a near-death experience... Need I say more?

Orion is called the Dog of War for reason. His strength alone is enough to match the Man of Steel's. And that just the beginning... He has been able trade blows with the following: Kalibak, an insane Lightray, a Sundipped Superman, and Darkseid himself.Twice.

Then there's the Astro-Force which has let him one-shot a young Superman, disintegrate Mantis, match the Omega force, set up force fields,one shot Superman, Kalibak, and Mantis after their fight amongst other things. Keep in mind that God Planet, which was split in halves to form New Genesis and Kalibak, is larger than the largest star.

Just for reference Kalibak and Lightray are Superman level beings in their own right. Kalibak has been able to shatter Kyle's personal shields before, and Lightray, while exhausted, had enough energy to produce a star. Mantis, on the otherhand had enough power to take on Dr.Fate, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern at the same time. And I know Darkseid catches a lot of flak on this site, but his Omega Beams have been able to put down people like Agogg, who managed to stomp Lightray and Orion physically, with one blast yet Orion was able to match the blast with the Astro-Force.

Another thing to take note, is that Orion is more than capable of fighting mutliple opponents. He has taken on entire armies before, a team of New Genesis' elite Monitors, and is capable of releasing the Astro-Force is the form of AOE attacks. One thing to keep in mind about the Monitors is that the average New God is comparable to a Kryptonian in terms of power. And these guys are basically the Seal Team 6 of New Genesis, yet Orion took them all on simultaneously. The main point is that Orion is more than capable of fighting his foes without being overwhelmed and also he keep his foes at bay with AOE bursts from the Astro-Force.

But there's more to Orion than his offensive capabilities. His durability has allowed him to tank events such as a motherbox explosion, and a blast of the Omega Force among other things. He also has a healing factor which in the past has allowed him to get up shortly after being shot by a firing squad with radion stingers. (radion is kryptonite for the New Gods).

Then the Motherbox boosts this durability and the healing factor to whole another level. First, the Motehrbox protects atomic manipulation which should come in handy against phasing, and it can also heal Orion if needed.

In addition to this, the Motherbox can redirect energy and frequency attacks which will protect Orion from Cyborg's sonic attacks.

Then there's Orion speed capabilities but since Ashyrm's perk keeps us all at supersonic speed I'll post a reaction feat like reacting to the Omega Beams or deflecting bolts of light or being able to perceive microseconds to show that no one here should be getting the jump on Orion.

Well, based on Cyborg's ability to generate sonic attacks as well as being able to interact with the Motherbox, he will be the first target for the Dog of War. Based on the abilities demonstrated above a barrage of blasts courtesy of the Astro-Force, he should be taken almost immediately. There isn't really a way he can counter this attack as the blasts are fast enough to hit the likes of Lightray and Superman who both can travel at lightspeeds, and you've limited the speed of everyone on the battlefield thus taking away the option of dodging these attacks. This in addition to the fact that the blasts can be applied to wide area means that eveyone here will have to bear the brunt of the Astro-Force. If Cyborg manages to get his sonic attack off before he is incapacitated the Motherbox will simply redirect the attack back at the Ashrym's team or at MMH to keep him busy as shown here.

Due to the information perk and his encounter with the White Martians, Orion knows how to deal with MMH. He simply sets himself on fire to prevent Martian Manhunter from getting up close. There are two ways Orion can go about doing this. One, he can simply level parts of the city the battle is taking place in to cause the fire thus putting MMH at a distinct disadvtage or he could simply generate an inferno like he did when he was fighting Darkseid. And if that isn't enough the Motherbox can manipulate the weather but I doubt Orion will need to resort to that.

Soon afterwards Sasuke will suffer the same fate, as it would be helpful to avoid any hax that he brings to the table. Once again everyone here is slowed to hypersonic speeds which isn't fast to dodge Astro-Force blasts AOE or not. And to my knowledge Sasuke doesn't have the durability to withstand a barrage of these attacks. His case is quite similiar to Cyborgs.

From there that leaves Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter. The blasts of the Astro-Force will be enough to keep the rest of the New 52 JLA at bay if not outright taking them out. However if the managed to get close enough, it is worth keeping in mind that Orion was the only who could take on a sundipped, insane Superman who breezed through the JLA as if they were nothing. To emphasize the same guy who managed to overcome MMH, Flash, Kyle, Wonder Woman, Big Barda among others was struggling to put Orion down. So needless to say, Orion has enough power to outmuscle everyone here. The only problem would be Martian Manhunter but the inferno surrounding Orion and covering various parts of the city prevents any phasing/intangible attacks as MMH struggles to use his power under fire. I think EmperorThanos has some examples of this in his first post. But then there is also the fact that in Final Crisis MMH was killed via this method. And I like I said earlier Orion will be either be generating a inferno or setting the city on fire or both. The fire should at least MMH tangible enough for Orion to cut loose and end him.

As for Wonder Woman and Aquaman, Orion has been able to take out way stronger foes with his blasts before. Just look what happened to Mantis. He was able to even hurt Darkseid with the blasts so in all likelihood Aquaman will fall fairly quickly. And the Wonder Woman will suffer either same fate or she will try to engage Orion in close quarters which would be a fatal mistake for reasons stated in the Wrath of the Source paragraph.

If Orion is somehow damaged during this process, then he'll use the Motherbox to heal himself or MMH manages to get past the inferno the Motherbox would protect against any atomic manipulation used against Orion. But other than that things should proceed accordingly.

I'll save the debunking and counters for the next post. So I guess its time for conclusions.

Seeing as how both your strategies revolve around using fire, I'm going to show you why that isn't going to work

Martian Manhunter has long overcome his weakness to fire and is able to fight despite being on flames. Here are just a few examples of him surviving fire with out difficulty

Here he tanks fire from a flamethrower and is fine.

He can even fight high tier beings while being on fire.

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Here he was on fire for several hours, yet was still able to fight both Flash and Wonder Woman.

MMH has stated that he no longer suffers from that weakness. (Mainly Because it is a psychological problem not a physical one.)

Hope that puts and end to the fire argument

Martian Manhunter is definitely a powerful telepath, no doubt. Fortunately for my team and unfortunately for your team there are a few issues with your assessment. The most glaring is that Orion is standing there waiting for Martian Manhunter to deal with my team before doing anything. We are not going to take turns in a free for all.

As stated MMH will be TPing everyone including Orion. Orion will just be the only one to survive.

The next thing wrong is the presumption that MMH's telepathy can deal with my entire team that fast. While it's true MMH used telepathy on Wonder Woman and Cyborg, that story did not take some of their abilities into consideration. It also took place without MMH trying to simultaneously subdue Arthur telepathically.

That doesn't change the fact that it worked on them pretty easily. Even if Author can somehow survive it, the other two aren't. remeber this is a random encounter since neither of our team has prep. Which was the situation in those scan.

• Wonder Woman's lasso helps a person focus and see the truth.
• Wonder Woman was immune to Braniac's mind control and that was powerful enough to give MMH some grief.
• Cyborg was also immune to Braniac's mind control initially until it was modified.
• Wonder Woman was immune to Constantine's magic.
• Wonder Woman and Aquaman both have casual resistance to magic and mind control.
• . Chimera was also a world level telepath who was capable of taking control of the ocean's sea life away from Aquaman but unable to control him. Even after direct physical contact to increase the telepathic link Aquaman still forced Chimera out of his mind.

1. Ok so what exactly is this supposed to show me? MMH isn't going to show Wonder Woman illusions. He is either going to just put her to sleep or put her into a mind coma.
2. So how strong is Braniac's telepathy?
3. same as above.
4. Magic and telepathy are two different things.
5. Magical telepathy is different from MMH's tp.
6. Interesting feat, but CHimera is not on the same level as MMH

MH's track record against Despero isn't all that cut and dried either. That was one instance of a win but it's questionable because it's not consistent with all the matches between the two.

I clearly stated New 52 Despero. These other fights are against Pre 53 despero who is far stronger than both MMH and Aquaman.

One might ask what this means for the match. What it means is that MMH doesn't completely dominate powerful telepaths as stated.

Not true at all. Pre 52 Despero is only one person who has overpwoered. MMH is superior to New 52 Despero.

But he has several feats of beating Telepaths. Here is one of him beating Gorrila Grodd

Here he uses it to shut down Dr Psycho

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It also means that Cyborg expanding his consciousness to the entire web is suddenly a huge mind for MMH to dominate and Cyborg has that opportunity for two reasons.

Because Cyrbog just expands his conscious during a fight. That makes no sense for him to do in an actual fight. Not that it would be a problem for MMH when he can casually read the minds of everyone on the planet instantly.

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Cyborg doesn't just expand his mind randomly, and even if he does MMH won't have a problem with that.

The first is that Cyborg's reactions are millions of actions per nanosecond on the cyber side of things.

Which is great but proves what exactly? So he can process information in nanoseconds, how exactly is that going to save him from being TPed?

MMH has TPed flash while he was blitzing at full speed

The second is that there's no reason to think MMH can instantly and casually defeat Aquaman telepathically, especially trying this on at least 3 people who have all demonstrated resistance to telepathy.

I have literally shown two of your members already falling for his TP in the past. I see no reason why it wouldn't work again here.

He has mindwiped the entire JLA, all of whom have TP resistance.

He has TPed the likes of Spectre who are far superior to anyone on your team

Your team is not surviving this.

Martian Manhunter's biggest issue here is that everyone knows the inherent weakness of martians while Aquaman has a history of using and fighting within fire because Aquaman is resistant to extreme temperatures. This even includes defeating Martian Manhunter very quickly in such conditions in an undersea fissure. All it takes is exploding a gas line or fuel from a vehicle for Aquaman to gain an advantage here, or lighting fires with lightning, or Cyborg lighting fires with plasma or lasers or actual flame such as we see from his rockets. MMH has had some times where he's shown fighting even with fire but not as effectively and that matters.

Addressed above. The fire weakness thing has long since be debunked and there are several instances of MMH surviving it without a problem. Your team is getting mindraped right of the bat.

Due to the information perk and his encounter with the White Martians, Orion knows how to deal with MMH. He simply sets himself on fire to prevent Martian Manhunter from getting up close. There are two ways Orion can go about doing this. One, he can simply level parts of the city the battle is taking place in to cause the fire thus putting MMH at a distinct disadvtage or he could simply generate an inferno like he did when he was fighting Darkseid. And if that isn't enough the Motherbox can manipulate the weather but I doubt Orion will need to resort to that.

Addressed above. The fire weakness thing has long since be debunked and there are several instances of MMH surviving it without a problem. Actually the fact that Orion has to resort to using fire against white martians shows how outmatched he is

Here is a feat of MMH easily taking out a bunch of white Martians who where giving the entire JLA a tough time

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Soon afterwards Sasuke will suffer the same fate, as it would be helpful to avoid any hax that he brings to the table. Once again everyone here is slowed to hypersonic speeds which isn't fast to dodge Astro-Force blasts AOE or not. And to my knowledge Sasuke doesn't have the durability to withstand a barrage of these attacks. His case is quite similiar to Cyborgs.

So firstly how powerful is his astro forces blasts?

Secondly Sasuke's speed maybe equalized but he still has teleportation through Amenotejikara

He can use it avoid attacks. As seen here against Madara

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Sasuke can use his teleportation to avoid most attacks

However if the managed to get close enough, it is worth keeping in mind that Orion was the only who could take on a sundipped, insane Superman who breezed through the JLA as if they were nothing. To emphasize the same guy who managed to overcome MMH, Flash, Kyle, Wonder Woman, Big Barda among others was struggling to put Orion down

MMH himself has been able to all these people on at the same time superman included

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1. Pre 52
2. new 52

Through his versatility sure. But Superman has made it clear that MMH is greater than him

But then there is also the fact that in Final Crisis MMH was killed via this method. And I like I said earlier Orion will be either be generating a inferno or setting the city on fire or both. The fire should at least MMH tangible enough for Orion to cut loose and end him.

There is context behind that scan, don't just show a cropped version. MMH was captured by Libra, drugged and then killed. This wasn't an actually fight

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It clearly shows that MMH was out by tranqulizers and was being held down so that Libra could use his special magical flame spear to kill him. He even stated that he would not want to fight him in a fair fight.

So no I will go indepth as to why Orion loses. In terms of physical strength MMH and Orion are even at least. I showed in my opener a fight between triumph and MMh where MMH one easily. Well that same triumph was able to fight Superman on even terms

And heres a feat of him beating Ultraman, an alternate version of Superman

So MMH can easily contend with physically. And now since speed is equalized, Sasuke is at an advantage with his substitution which he can use in combat

But he can use this ability for more than just dodging.

While MMH keeps Orion busy. Sasuke could teleport a sword into him

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Here he does it against Madara while he was attacking Naruto.

Or use amatersau on him. It may not kill him instantly, but It would be damaing him whilst MMH attacks.

Uses it against Raikage, forcing him to chop of his hand as the amaterasu can't be put out by anyone besides Sasuke.

Or MMH could phase kill him

Here he phases kills two white martians.

What I see happening is Cyborg using his nanosecond reaction time to take over Orion's mother box and destroying it...

The first problem with this plan is that Cyborg doesn't have any knowledge on who Orion is or that he has a Motherbox and has no way of figuring that out before a barrage of blasts courtesy of the Astro-Force reduces him to steaming pile of nuts and bolts. The first thing you have to prove is that disabling the Motherbox would Cyborg's first move. Secondly, there's a lot of context behind Cyborg being able to interact with the boxes from Apokalips. For one, the reason why Cyborg was able to BFR Darkseid and the Parademons is because their Motherboxes were all connected via a network. Cyborg was able to tap into that network by hacking communications between Darkseid's Motherbox and the rest of motherboxes and as shown below he had to exert himself in order to do so...

...shutting down the Motherboxes took one hell of an effort so him performing this feat in under a nanosecond is a stretch.

On a sidenote, why would you assume that watching a series of TV shows would be equivalent to hacking a sentient supercomputer? While we are on the topic, the Mr.Robot feat seems to be one of processing speed instead of battle reaction speed.When has Cyborg reacted like this in battle? Or does he have any combat feats to suggest he has nanosecond reaction speed?

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1: Exhibit A:Cyborg remarks that his computer isn't even responding.

2: Exhibit B: Cyborg remarks that he can't shut down the Darkseid's Motherbox. Both of which indicate his struggle to shut down Darkseid's Motherbox.

So even if he decides to use this route of attack, he'll have to exert himself shutting down the Motherbox just to BFR Orion for 30 seconds and piss him the hell off. Here's an example of his rage unleashed just for reference. As I have shown in my first post, Orion when pissed off has been able toe to toe with Darkseid even managing to rip out his heart in their final battle. The point is that without the Motherbox Orion won't pull his punches and that just means your team is more trouble than they were in originally.And while he's exerting himself doing this, he'll have to dodge an array of Astro-Force blasts that I've shown to have put people of Superman's caliber down.

Cyborg doesn't need to move. He manipulates energy including boom tubes, bleed energy, and various other energy forms as needed. Cyborg can use boom tube teleportation instantly.

You have yet to prove that Cyborg can manipulate energy on the scale that Orion can put out. Summoning BOOM tubes doesn't show that Cyborg has the ability to simply redirect/absorb energy attacks that have taken out Superman level beings in the past. Simply put this seems to be a stretch as you haven't shown manipulating energy blasts of this caliber.

Another thing is that Orion can simply go in close to Cyborg and put him down the old fashion way. Orion has been able to physically dominate the likes of Kalibak and Mantis, and go toe to toe with an amped Superman (who the entire Pre-52 JL couldn't stop) and Darkseid (twice...). With that being said Orion could turn Cyborg into scrap metal with almost no effort on his part.

Also how will Cyborg know to teleport via BOOMtube immediately? I'll point out again that he doesn't know what Orion is capable of, but I'll also add the fact you have to deal with MMH's telepathy at the beginning of the battle. Orion will be on Cyborg like white on rice from the beginning of the battle so theres that too. Then there's the fact that he has nowhere to run to. Orion's blasts are more than capable of leveling the entire city that this battle takes place in.

The problem with that statement is that the motherbox is destroyed, Cyborg can assimilate Orion's harness as well as demonstrated in tech absorbing feats, and Cyborg can repeatedly BFR Orion and the locations can be extremely hostile in nature, not that it's necessary because Cyborg has been stated capable of killing Superman in under 5 seconds and demonstrated maintaining control subduing Superman with his sonic abilities.

Ignoring the fact that Cyborg will be scrap metal before he can interact with the Motherbox, this plan fails on several other fundamental levels. The first being that the Astro-Harness is merely a physical manifestation of the Astro-Force that only Orion can control. It isn't a piece of technology in the way that you seem think it is but its more akin to a construct of sorts. Next is the part where you think BFRing Orion will help here. For one, this isn't in character for Cyborg at all. Two, Orion would simply BOOMtube to the battle again or be returned after 30 seconds as stated by tourney rules. And even if he did this technique is wouldn't work because Orion has survived in the firepits of Apokalips before and the Motherbox can simply maintain his atomic structure. Finally there's the sonic attack that you keep bringing up. The Motherbox simply reverses the polarity of this attack back at your team as I've shown in the first post. Also I'd like to point out the reason why Cyborg's sonics are effective against Superman is becuase of his superhearing which makes him susceptible to this method of attack and that in all likelihood 5 seconds more than enough time for Orion to end Cyborg in a plethora of ways.

and Cyborg's ability to reboot from death or grow a new body give him the opportunities to keep coming back in the off chance he does get dropped.

Well considering the fact Orion reduced things such as the Black Racer's armor, and foes like Mantis to atomic ash and goo respectively, I doubt that Cyborg will have anything to come back from. Keep in mind that the Astro-Force can match the Omega Effect in damage output so I wouldn't count of Cyborg surviving a blast or two let alone a barrage of them.

I don't think you realized the league in which my team plays. We face cosmic threats, mate. ;-)

Umm Okay. You realize that Orion has fought Darkseid, Sivaa the endbringer of the Universe, Infinity Man, and others before right...

Aquaman and Wonder Woman can be teleported in close, or Orion can be teleported in close to them. Considering I demonstrated the blast around Wonder Woman taking a direct blow from Darkseid with a corresponding shock wave and light show where she did not lose consciousness and she blocks massive energy for herself and her team you might want to reconsider that line of thought. Pre52 Darkseid doesn't seem as powerful as new52 Darkseid and she no-sold blocking his omega beams as shown, and those also KO'd Supes if that's how you are benchmarking their power.

Well personally I feel that going into close quarters with Orion is a death sentence but if you insist. Ignoring the fact that Cyborg will be taken out before he can accomplish this there are many issues with this method of attack. I guess I'll adress New 52 WW first. First, how does Wonder Woman block an attack that surrounds her entire being? The answer is that she can't. The Area of Effect attacks that Orion can unleash aren't typical blasts but are more akin to explosions. Trying to block that line of attack would be like walking in a sun with a shield.... It isn't to help at all. But besides that, Wonder Woman can't keep up with Orion physically. You referenced her surviving a blow from Darkseid as a standard for her duability which is a good feat but considering that Orion will be hitting her more than once means that won't cut it. I'll just point out that Supergirl was able to given WW trouble on her own, and that WW had to use her Combat Skill and experience to overcome Kara's strength. Wonder Woman also struggled when fighting an New 52 Kalibak in Darkseid War and I've already shown what Orion can do to Pre-52 Kalibak who has more feats and is stronger in general. So how is she gonna deal with a dude who fights people like Kalibak,Mantis, and Superman on a regular basis? And then there's his fights with the Monitors, a sun-dipped Superman, and Darkseid...Second, New 52 Darkseid's Omega Beams don't have the feats that Pre-52 Darkseid's does. For one the Omega Beams have straight up incinerated Superman level beings and above in Pre-52. Kalibak was effortlessly wiped from existance, and Agogg ,a being who physicall dominated Orion and Lightray, suffered the exact same fate. So don't equate the Omega Beams from New-52 to those of before Flashpoint. Also Grail shattered those same bracelets with pseudo-Omega Beams, so I'm not sure how they'll hold up against Pre-52 Darkseid's Omega Beams or Orion's Astro-Force which can match it powerwise.

As for Pre-52 Darkseid being weaker than his New 52 counterpart, it isn't as simple as that. The image of Pre-52 DS has been sullied because of PIS showings, avatars, etc... People seem to forget that his physical power has been enough put Superman down in a couple of strikes, one-shot Orion in the past, drive Superman away with a casual pimp slap, no-sell an all out assault from Lobo, incinerate Kalibak, beat Jimmy Olsen with the power of the New Gods, taking on the entire Legion of Superheroes among other things... And Orion at his best can fight him evenly.

Regardless, the only way New 52 Wonder Woman can actually inflict significant damage is with her sword, but seeing how the Area of Effect blasts being unleashed by Orion I sincerely doubt that she'll be able to get close without sustaining a significant amount of damage or straight up being taken out. If somehow she manages to get up close, Orion lightspeed reaction speed and superior physical will allow him to take her down fairly easily with the Motherbox healing him if need be.

Likewise, Aquaman will fall as well. Except his demise will be much worse. First off, he has no way of protecting himself against the Astro-Force and doesn't have the durability to survive a solid blast from Orion. Second, Aquaman is the only person here besides Sasuke that can't fly. Thus fighting Orion (and MMH) will be that much more difficult due to lack of mobility. Orion physically outclasses him in both power, reaction speed, and skill. All of which make the task of tagging Orion a momentous one to say the least. And even if he manages to tag Orion, Orion's healing factor or his Motherbox will simply kick in.

Everyone here has high showings facing each other. I would remind you that pre52 Aquaman remained conscious in Starro's blast that one shot Orion. New 52 took blows from MMH who had grown in mass and strength while possessed and wasn't KO'd by them or injured; he just expressed pain.

I guess I'll just gloss over this real quick. First, this isn't Pre-52 Aquaman so I won't even continuing debunking that feat. Also, Orion has much better durability feats than Aquaman (Pre-52 and New52). Do you honestly think Aquaman could survive a blast from the Omega Beams? Or that he could survive fighting an amped insane Superman who breezed through the Justice League? Or blasts from an insane Lightray who has the power to create suns?

Aquaman has shown reinvigorated instantly with a little bit of water and Wolverine level healing factor if he needs to take to the water in the battlefield. Wonder Woman has her own healing factor from divine blood that enable healing a broken arm while Superman carried her to shore and went back for a ship, then returned. Cyborg has massive healing and regeneration. Orion's healing hasn't been shown to be that impressive when it's commonplace in high tier characters.

Orion's healing factor isn't impressive.... *Shaking my damn head* First off, the fact that Wonder Woman's arm was broken so easily by Doomsday shows that she doesn't have what it takes to deal with Orion as he is around the same strength level at the very least.Second, in the very first post I showed Orion healing from getting shot with Radion bullets and getting up on the same page.Then I showed the Motherbox can heal him from whatever injury he sustains, and was able to keep him from being atomized by maintaining his atomic structure. Healing a broken arms pales in comparison to healing from getting shot by a firing squad using your kryptonite against you. As for Aquaman and Cyborg, show me them getting up from being reduced to goo then we can talk.

That same thing can be said of any team here and works each way. My team could just as easily pursue it's own objectives while Orion fights Sasuke and Martian Manhunter. A unilateral condition isn't an advantage.

Except for the fact I said that Orion will be going after Cyborg first so.... Also your the one who have to deal MMH's mental attack at the beginning of the battle. You're team is the only one that is being attacked by all other parties at the beginning of the battle: MMH's tp attack, Orion's Astro-Force Assualt, and Sasuke's attacks. So in this case, both Emperor Thanos and I have the advantage over you. This provides another reason why Cyborg can't take out the Motherbox becuase in addition to the effort he needs to make in order to shut the Motherbox down, he and his teammates have to deal with telepathy and energy blasts courtesy of MMH and Orion respectively.

Seeing as how both your strategies revolve around using fire, I'm going to show you why that isn't going to work

Martian Manhunter has long overcome his weakness to fire and is able to fight despite being on flames. Here are just a few examples of him surviving fire with out difficulty

I guess the first thing I have to address is Orion doesn't need fire to take MMH out. In one on one battle he should have the advantage due to the following reasons: One of my perks has taken MMH's best power of the table, the Astro-Force has taken out opponents of similar capabilities and be applied in the form of traditional blasts or AOE attacks, Orion's superior hand to hand skill and combat prowess, the Motherbox preventing any phase killing by maintaining Orion's atomic structure, among other reasons.

But like I stated in my intro, weakening MMH would help Orion put him down in a more efficient manner. Since Ashyrm already addressed some reasons to why MMH while be affected by fire I'll just add on to that. For one, the scan that you posted above seems to show that MMH is merely resistant to fire, as he still seems to struggle with it. He even says that "I didn't like that..." while being in pain in the first scan.

I also mentioned that a scan in your first post showed him struggling to reform due to a fire surrounding him as well another scan of Batman shocking MMH out of a trance with fire.

Now I understand that after the Fernus story MMH is supposed to be immune to fire, but the events of Final Crisis seem to tell a different story. First off, MMH is tranquilized by a series of pyro-tranq darts and a ring of fire. This alone shows that he is still susceptible to fire unless there is something I don't know. Then he was killed subsequently by Libra's spear which I demonstrated earlier. And Orion can control flames and surround himself with flames and seen here and his fight with the White Martian. So unless there is an explanation for this, then MMH has to deal with a flaming War God.

I'm not sure if you said this or not, but I heard that one explanation for his death in Final Crisis is that MMH can still be affected by supernatural sources of fire but not normal flames. But I have this covered too. You see Orion can control flames and surround himself with flames and seen here and his fight with the White Martian. But he can generate an inferno via the Astro-Force that is replicating the flames of the firepits in Apokalips which satisfies this condition.

Actually, I'll just put a nail in the coffin right here. One of Jonn's last appearances in the Pre-52 (after his resurrection in Brightest Day) had him fighting another Martian and killing her by flying them both into a sun. And as you can see below, Jonn wasn't doing to well to say the least. I think he ended up barely surviving 8 minutes or something like that, but seeing as how Orion can simulate the flames of firepit for an entire fight with Darkseid I'd say MMH is screwed.

There is context behind that scan, don't just show a cropped version. MMH was captured by Libra, drugged and then killed. This wasn't an actually fight

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It clearly shows that MMH was out by tranqulizers and was being held down so that Libra could use his special magical flame spear to kill him. He even stated that he would not want to fight him in a fair fight.

First off, I never said Libra fought MMH in a fair fight nor did I imply it. All I said is that Libra killed MMH with a fiery spear which he did. As I mentioned earlier the method they used to weaken MMH was injected him with pyro-tranq which appears just to manipulate fire in some fashion. The context for the scan actually just proves my point further. While an argument could be made for Darkseid's design of Libra's spear having to deal with MMH's demise, there isn't an excuse to why the pyro-tranqs and the ring of fire were able to put MMH down. Or to why fires after this story have affected MMH as shown in the example above.

All in all, MMH is still definitely affected by fire. For the initial plan I was just planning use fire to cement Orion edge on MMH by weakening him and preventing him from using his more exotic powers properly. But as you've seen here, I've proven that Orion has the capability to incapicitate MMH by generating firepit conditions like he did when fighting Darkseid.

In addition to MMH's fire weakness, I'll show that Orion can simply overpower MMH.

So firstly how powerful is his astro forces blasts?

I thought that I demonstrated the Astro-Force's power in the first post pretty clearly. But since you asked nicely, I'm eager to hand out seconds. This scan linked here shows Orion threatening to destroy the world indirectly as a ressult of his assualt on the Khund Warship on the Moon... Or how about the time he reduced Slig to atomic ash. For those that don't Slig was holding his own against Orion before the Dog of War cut loose. So there's that. I've also shown it can match the Omega Effect as well.

MMH himself has been able to all these people on at the same time superman included

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Well heres the thing. I've shown Orion fighting evenly with a Superman that swatted the JLA away as if they were gnats. This JLA included Flash, Wonder Woman, MMH, Kyle Rayner, Big Barda and others. Also, these scans just show him engaging all of these people at once but they don't show anything else. Both of them just show one instance of the battle in which it appears that MMH has the advantage where as Orion has an entire fight confirming that he can hang with teambuster foes. Another thing is that MMH has struggled with opponents with similar physical to Orion in the past. Black Adam gave MMH more than enough trouble on his own and he had to fight an army of superheroes beforehand. In the New 52, Atrocitus was putting hands on all of Stormwatch including MMH... Then in Trinity War, New 52 handled MMH by phasing him ironically.

My point is that these scans don't show that much and are much less impressive than they appear. Heck, Wonder Woman's given the New 52 JL trouble before too, but it was mostly becuase they weren't fighting her as if she were Darkseid but just trying to get her under control which seems to be the most probable case for MMH's skirmish against the JL. And the first scan seemed suspicious to me so I did some research, and here's the battle leading up to that scan:

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For the most part, Malefaak simply catches the League off guard which is how it seems the Martians got the edge. First, he suprises Wonder Woman with a blast of Martian Vision. He then sucker punches Kal El, and proceeds to hit some other League members with Martian Vision which seems to leave Superman and Steel unscathed as he flies straight through it. Malefaak then sucker punches Flash. Afterwards, Malefaak punches Superman, while MMH temporarily grapples Barda, WW, and Orion. He then books it. No one seems hurt. Even WW got up shortly after being blasted with the Martian Vision. By putting one out of context scan, it looks like MMH can handle the League but in reality he couldn't inflict significant damage to anyone there. Also, Orion isn't even using the Astro-Force here so he'll be fighting a very different fight here.

And this was with the element of surprise and Malefaak on his side. In this battle he will be weakened significantly by fire so there is no way that any of this can be replicated here.

Or MMH could phase kill him

Here he phases kills two white martians.

I think the last thing I need to counter here is phasing as it seems to be the way you want to take Orion out. So I'll just remind you that the Motherbox can constantly reassemble the atomic structure of Orion. So he won't be taken out by molecular manipulation of any kind.

While MMH can handle Superman tier opponents. Orion has taken on multiple New God elite soldiers, fought Darkseid and a Sundipped Superman on even terms. Orion simply is better at combat, and the only way MMH can beat Orion is via versatility which I have countered in my first two posts. (TP/Phasing) And then you had the fact that MMH has to fight his weakness means its a done deal.

In short, MMH couldn't match Orion's raw power in the first place let alone while being weakened by flames. MMH can't get close to Orion as he will be simulating firepit conditions so that takes engaging Orion with a physical assault or phasing off of the table. In addition the Motherbox would simply protect Orion by maintaining his atomic structure. From there, Astro-Force blasts will take MMH down in the same way that took down Mantis and Slig reducing MMH to sludge or atomic ash from which he can't regenerate from. (Keep in mind, the fire makes it even harder for him to regenerate anyways). If the Martian employs Martian Vision it will be redirected by the Motherbox back at Emperor Thanos' team or Ashyrm's team.

So MMH can easily contend with physically. And now since speed is equalized, Sasuke is at an advantage with his substitution which he can use in combat

But he can use this ability for more than just dodging.

While MMH keeps Orion busy. Sasuke could teleport a sword into him

This is actually a good plan. But you'll have to prove Sasuke can react to an Astro-Force blast. Considering that Orion has used the force to block/match the Omega Effect it is safe to say the attack itself is pretty fast. This in addition, to Orion's microsecond perception speed means that Sasuke while have his hands full dealing with that barrage of blasts.And since you plan on TPing Ashyrm's team immediately, this would make Sasuke Orion's first target so he would have to potentially deal with this from the start.

Also, it seems like a stretch or slight NLF to assume that Sasuke could do this to someone with Superman+ physicals and that has resisted transmutation and atomic manipulation before. Is there anything suggesting that he can do this to anyone?

As for the Amaterasu, Sasuke would have to pull this off while dealing with all the tasks listed above. And even then it would put strain on Sasuke making it easier for Orion to take him out if he even manages to get the attack off.

I'm going to open with refuting your counter to the fire weakness. The image you posted at the bbq stating MMH no longer has the weakness was from JLA 84 "Trial By Fire" part one. That was J'onn becoming Fernus after a lot of time with Scorch and J'onn gave that up when he freed himself from Fernus at the end of the arc.

Yes it is. Which changes what? I'm not using an earlier version of MMH I'm using post crisis. So it is still applicable.

The 2 images above are from JLA 89 when "Trial by Fire" concluded and demonstrate that Fernus had the resistance to fire but J'onn had to give it up freeing himself from Fernus. Green Lantern created a giant wave to put out the fire to save J'onn from that fire. J'onn only had the ability to handle fire for a 5 issue story arc and the events leading up to it. That ability was based on his previous origin. New 52 retconned that origin in his new 52 serious to invalidate even the possibility.

That doesn't change any of the other feats I have displayed for J'onn. He may have a fire weakness but it's not like he is going to die the moment he is set on fire. I shwoed the feat of him dealing with fire for several hours and still being able to fight Flash and Wonder Woman. Or the feat of him tanking fire from Batman.

Martians have a weakness but MMH has been able to overcome, he can still tank fire attacks and keep fighting.

Issue 10 from MMH's 2015 series shows that his orgins is based on ancient martian blood magic as they created a super martian and no longer the previous origin which included the Guardians of Oa having had placed a fail safe in the martian race which means Fernus should no longer be a possibility at this point because there was no longer a need to put that fail safe into the martian race based on a single being who didn't exist at the time the Guardians would have done so.

This is true, but if we are discussing new 52 then MMH's weakness to fire is pure psychological. It doesn't do any special physical harm to him.

Another example is him getting really close to sun

So physically fire will not do much to him.

He does suffer from PTSD but he can deal with being on fire.

He won't have time, as stated earlier. Trying to TP Orion is additional resources. Trying to TP Aquaman is additional resources. You would need to beat Cyborg's speed in opening up a boom tube to the earth's core and allowing lava to coat J'onn. As demonstrated, fire is still a weakness and J'onn isn't as powerful when afflicted by such a weakness.

Lol what? Why in the hell would cyborg just immediately summon lava. this is a random encounter and cyborg has no prep. Why would that be his first go to attack. Show me Cyborg ever summons lava from the Earths core at all. And then show me him doing this in a random encounter when he has no pre and no idea who he is fighting before hand.

Cyborg's speed is nothing compared to MMH. He can process and access things at Nanoseconds, that in no way means he can move and fight at said speeds. Unless you can prove him doing so. Which no of the feats so far have shown that.

MMH on the other hand can use Telepathy at FTL speeds

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Here he gathers to power of every being on earth instantly and TPs D'kay. Now he did this whilst he was on Mars. So his TP reached the human population at FTL speeds.

Another example of his speed is him being able to fell every mind in the entire galaxy at once

He takes Superman into his mind scape in sixth of a second. And has a mind to mind conversation that is thousands times faster than real time. So taking into account the distance the two teams start and the speed at which MMH operates. He can get this attack of instantly with out any resistance.

1. The lasso focuses the mind. The images you provided were of MMH inducing illusions and he abandoned that approach when Superman returned. Cyborg neither sleeps nor remains unconscious so what you are describing results in a reboot even if it were to happen.

2&3. Strong enough dominate the minds of the people on the planet.

4&5. Not when both are attempting the same thing -- mental influence or control. Resisting the effects are resisting the effects.

6. Chimera was also a world level telepath as demonstrated by Aquaman's telepathy being capable to speaking to sea life across the planet and awakening the Dead King from his tomb in the antarctic, and Chimera being powerful enough to take control of the sea life from Aquaman. In this case, J'onn is also distracted by trying to force his will on 3 other people and instantly shutting down the team is questionable. Certainly not before fire becomes an issue.

1. You miss understood the point of the feat. It was to show that TP works on your team. In the battle J'onn won't be showing any illusions because this time he fighting them whilst in the other case he wasn't.
2. I was hoping for some scans. The scans you showed me don't exactly show Wonder Woman resisting. We just she her flying back saying there are merits of being a demi god.
3. Nope Wonder Woman has magic resistance but she is not resistant to telepathy. I have literally shown J'onn using TP on her to prove tht. Magical illusions are no the same as TP.
4. Again you have yet to show me any feats as to why he is that powerful

There is no indication that's at full speed nor was it faster than the Flash tackling and carrying J'onn away. That doesn't look like a blitz to me.

He was bullrushing MMH and and vibrating fast enough to stop MMH from phasing.

Even if it isn't his full speed. this is wally west even when casully moving he is faster than Nanoseconds.

He can create boom tubes into 17000 atmospheres of pressure and hold back that pressure. That pressure comes with temperatures close to the surface of the sun in heat. Cyborg can create boom tubes instantly as shown above. Boom tubing MMH into the lava or opening a return tube just to allow lava to soak MMH is going to cause MMH problems. Cyborg can do a lot with various energy types and boom tubes.

All he did here was transport Superman.

Show me atleast on isntance of him ever bringing. Infact this feat shows me that Cyborg wouldn't do such a thing. He clearly states that he can't risk opening the boom tubes the oppositew way. This mean that Cyborg in character would not do such a thing, ending that argument

The fail is in the instantly part. I would also point out that Aquaman wasn't with the group of JL'ers whom MMH mindwiped in those images. MMH struggled with atlanteans who had the precursor abilities similar to Aquaman.

OK so let's say it doesn't happen immidiatly. Cyborg and Wonder Woman are already out. Aquaman is the only one that will last a little longer than a second. Sasuke can stall Orion, while MMH finishes him of in a tp battle.

Aquaman is no where near MMH in telepathy. They are leagues apart

The first image shows how strong Aquaman's will was demonstrated when MMH was sensing it and the second shows MMH struggling with just shielding himself against primitive versions of Aquaman's telepathic ability.

Ok firstly aren't you using New Aquaman only? or are you using Post crisis. because in the op it specifies new 52.

But anyway, the first scan clearly has some context considering Aquaman has become the ocean somehow which he isn't usually.

The second scan. MMH specifies that atlanteans circa 1000BC. Are hard for him to just read because they are attuned to tp. Also you this is completely different from the situation here. MMH is trying to be stealthy and avoid being caught. That is not the case here.

But MMH is not going to have too much trouble with TPing Aquaman. I have shown scans of him TPing Spectre, Despero, Gordd. Who all have some sort of TP.

Here is him using against a bunch of people including Maxima who is also a powerful telepath

Here he uses it to shut down Dr Psycho

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I have shown several scans of him TPing who posses their own form of Telepathy.

Aquaman will take like a second longer to be put down. His has no where near the feats to deal with MMH.

Sasuke will finish him off as MMH deals with Orion.

Here is the capabilities of his Susanoo. He is able to casually destroy large meteors that were bigger than mountains.

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Sasuke can probably blitz him using is speed and teleportaion.

Here he displayes lightening level speed.

Or teleport a sword through him

Here he uses his teleportation ability again Madara, to stab him.

I guess the first thing I have to address is Orion doesn't need fire to take MMH out. In one on one battle he should have the advantage due to the following reasons: One of my perks has taken MMH's best power of the table, the Astro-Force has taken out opponents of similar capabilities and be applied in the form of traditional blasts or AOE attacks, Orion's superior hand to hand skill and combat prowess, the Motherbox preventing any phase killing by maintaining Orion's atomic structure, among other reasons.

Fair enough. But honestly nothing of what you have shown so far suggests that he can. I have shown a variety of other methods that MMH can use to beat Orion.. While your major plan has been fire based of our debate so far. Which is not going to work,

But like I stated in my intro, weakening MMH would help Orion put him down in a more efficient manner. Since Ashyrm already addressed some reasons to why MMH while be affected by fire I'll just add on to that. For one, the scan that you posted above seems to show that MMH is merely resistant to fire, as he still seems to struggle with it. He even says that "I didn't like that..." while being in pain in the first scan.

I never said he is completely immune to fire. Fire harms everyone. But the fact is your arguement was Orion could beat him like he did to the white martian. Which won't work on J'onn because he has displayed on multiple occasions.

On the regen scan, I don't see how this helps your argument. J'onn was able to regenerate in the and pretty quickly considering it was all in one page.

I also mentioned that a scan in your first post showed him struggling to reform due to a fire surrounding him as well another scan of Batman shocking MMH out of a trance with fire.

This is a very early scan, as I said MMH has overcome this weakness.

Now I understand that after the Fernus story MMH is supposed to be immune to fire, but the events of Final Crisis seem to tell a different story. First off, MMH is tranquilized by a series of pyro-tranq darts and a ring of fire. This alone shows that he is still susceptible to fire unless there is something I don't know. Then he was killed subsequently by Libra's spear which I demonstrated earlier. And Orion can control flames and surround himself with flames and seen here and his fight with the White Martian. So unless there is an explanation for this, then MMH has to deal with a flaming War God.

The scans speak for them selves really. If MMH was just weak to fire, why would they need to go through the process of pumping with Tranquilizers? Because even with fire, MMH is more than capable of fighting back at full power. It may affect him but MMH can still move and fight at high levels despite being on fire. So they need tranquilizers

I'm not sure if you said this or not, but I heard that one explanation for his death in Final Crisis is that MMH can still be affected by supernatural sources of fire but not normal flames. But I have this covered too. You see Orion can control flames and surround himself with flames and seen here and his fight with the White Martian. But he can generate an inferno via the Astro-Force that is replicating the flames of the firepits in Apokalips which satisfies this condition.

How does this in anyway that his fire is supernatural? Flames from firepits aren't magical in nature at all, unless you can prove it. So this arguement is irrelevant.

Actually, I'll just put a nail in the coffin right here. One of Jonn's last appearances in the Pre-52 (after his resurrection in Brightest Day) had him fighting another Martian and killing her by flying them both into a sun. And as you can see below, Jonn wasn't doing to well to say the least. I think he ended up barely surviving 8 minutes or something like that, but seeing as how Orion can simulate the flames of firepit for an entire fight with Darkseid I'd say MMH is screwed.

He flew through the sun. That vaporize the majority of people, fire weakness or not through the sheer heat. Orion's flames are no where near the heat of the sun. So he isn't going to be able to replicate that at all.

First off, I never said Libra fought MMH in a fair fight nor did I imply it. All I said is that Libra killed MMH with a fiery spear which he did. As I mentioned earlier the method they used to weaken MMH was injected him with pyro-tranq which appears just to manipulate fire in some fashion. The context for the scan actually just proves my point further. While an argument could be made for Darkseid's design of Libra's spear having to deal with MMH's demise, there isn't an excuse to why the pyro-tranqs and the ring of fire were able to put MMH down. Or to why fires after this story have affected MMH as shown in the example above.

Again tranquilizers put anyone down, how is that related to fire weakness at all? It's the whole point of what a tranquilizer is. If it was just the fire they qouldn't have required such a thing.

You have to understand that they had a prep time to make tranquilizers with fire, trap him and then kill him. Prep that Orion doesn't have here.

I thought that I demonstrated the Astro-Force's power in the first post pretty clearly. But since you asked nicely, I'm eager to hand out seconds. This scan linked here shows Orion threatening to destroy the world indirectly as a ressult of his assualt on the Khund Warship on the Moon... Or how about the time he reduced Slig to atomic ash. For those that don't Slig was holding his own against Orion before the Dog of War cut loose. So there's that. I've also shown it can match the Omega Effect as well.

You did but most of what was shown really isn't that impressive. Harming Superman was impressive but he didn't one shot him he just blasted him away. Superman was bleeding but that still isn't enough to put down MMH.

Well batman says he will tear the world apart but all we see in that scan is him destroying a ship. So the Earth could have jsut been under threat by the collapse of the ship or the moon. I don't see this putting Orion as planetary when he has not displayed such power at all.

In regards to Slig well first of all this was in 1971. Which is pre-crisis, so it isn't appilcable to this battle since all DC characters are post crisis. Your scan of him matching the omega effect is pre-crisis as well. So that feat is not applicable either.

Well heres the thing. I've shown Orion fighting evenly with a Superman that swatted the JLA away as if they were gnats. This JLA included Flash, Wonder Woman, MMH, Kyle Rayner, Big Barda and others. Also, these scans just show him engaging all of these people at once but they don't show anything else. Both of them just show one instance of the battle in which it appears that MMH has the advantage where as Orion has an entire fight confirming that he can hang with teambuster foes. Another thing is that MMH has struggled with opponents with similar physical to Orion in the past. Black Adam gave MMH more than enough trouble on his own and he had to fight an army of superheroes beforehand. In the New 52, Atrocitus was putting hands on all of Stormwatch including MMH... Then in Trinity War, New 52 handled MMH by phasing him ironically.

Orion dealt with SUperman. MMH is superior to superman. In my opener I posted his fight with triumph, here it is again

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This was the same triumph that Superman needed help from Steel to deal with

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MMH is easily Superman level strength if not superior

I don't see anything that suggest that Orion is close to Black Adam or Atrocitus in physical combat.

My overall point in strength though is that MMH is atleast equal to Orion due to have similar feats.

For the most part, Malefaak simply catches the League off guard which is how it seems the Martians got the edge. First, he suprises Wonder Woman with a blast of Martian Vision. He then sucker punches Kal El, and proceeds to hit some other League members with Martian Vision which seems to leave Superman and Steel unscathed as he flies straight through it. Malefaak then sucker punches Flash. Afterwards, Malefaak punches Superman, while MMH temporarily grapples Barda, WW, and Orion. He then books it. No one seems hurt. Even WW got up shortly after being blasted with the Martian Vision. By putting one out of context scan, it looks like MMH can handle the League but in reality he couldn't inflict significant damage to anyone there. Also, Orion isn't even using the Astro-Force here so he'll be fighting a very different fight here.

yes I know the the lead up to the battle. Catching them by surprise doest;t change the fact that he dealt with them all at once. And Malefaak wasn't doing except controlling MMH in that fight, he did a couple of invisible hits. But J'onn tanked all their attacks and was able to fight them all on at once. Now saying they weren't harmed is valid. But it does show that MMH is capable to taking the entire justice league at once. You have to taken into account that MMH was holding back and Malefaak was forcing his body to attack, so these weren't full power attack. But if anything this is a really good showing in terms of durability.

He stagged them all in the scan. He was taking them all on at once, which included Orion. There is a reason they were struggling to keep down. Because he is superior than all of them, and that point still stands. It's not like their hits did anything him, but unlike him they weren't holding back. you are dimissing this feat far to easily when it clearly shows that if J'onn wanted ot o he could battle against the Justice league.

I think the last thing I need to counter here is phasing as it seems to be the way you want to take Orion out. So I'll just remind you that the Motherbox can constantly reassemble the atomic structure of Orion. So he won't be taken out by molecular manipulation of any kind.

Which will help him how? His heart will be phased out, he will be dead, so no amount of molecular regeneration will save him.

While MMH can handle Superman tier opponents. Orion has taken on multiple New God elite soldiers, fought Darkseid and a Sundipped Superman on even terms. Orion simply is better at combat, and the only way MMH can beat Orion is via versatility which I have countered in my first two posts. (TP/Phasing) And then you had the fact that MMH has to fight his weakness means its a done deal.

Not really, I have shown MMH is more than a match in physicals. Your whole argument relies on MMH struggling with fire and then losing but you have shown nothing else. Physical attacks on their own will not put down someone who can regen.

And there has been no counter to phasing. MMH can just mess up his brain and be done with it.

Or telekinetic-ally blow him up

Here Pearl(who is actually MMH when he split himself up) telekinetic ally blows up some white martians.

MMH could use this against Orion.

This is actually a good plan. But you'll have to prove Sasuke can react to an Astro-Force blast. Considering that Orion has used the force to block/match the Omega Effect it is safe to say the attack itself is pretty fast. This in addition, to Orion's microsecond perception speed means that Sasuke while have his hands full dealing with that barrage of blasts.And since you plan on TPing Ashyrm's team immediately, this would make Sasuke Orion's first target so he would have to potentially deal with this from the start.

I see no reason why he shouldn't. You have shown no quantifiable speed for the astro-force blasts Scaling off Omega effect doesn't really work, matching a blast doesn't mean it is as fast.(And it was pre crisis as already discussed)

Sasuke on the other hand can react and avoid lightening.

Gallery

Also, it seems like a stretch or slight NLF to assume that Sasuke could do this to someone with Superman+ physicals and that has resisted transmutation and atomic manipulation before. Is there anything suggesting that he can do this to anyone?

Does Orion have piercing durability feats? Becuase if he doesn't then I don't see why this would work. Matching superman doesn't mean they have the same durability, ABC logic doesn;t work in comics.

So I wouldn't really call it an nlf, people with strong enough piercing durability should be able to survive it. Or if someone is fast enough blitz him. But orion doesn't have the movement speed for that, Based on whats shown.

While Sasuke as earlier shown can move at lightening speeds.

And is equal to Naruto in speed who was able to fight across the moon against Toneri

As for the Amaterasu, Sasuke would have to pull this off while dealing with all the tasks listed above. And even then it would put strain on Sasuke making it easier for Orion to take him out if he even manages to get the attack off.

tasks like what? Sasuke can casually use his teleportation and all he needs to do to use Amatersau is basically look at Orion. Sasuke can use this easily. He doesn't struggle with using amatersau as he did when he had his regular MS.

Now I'm not going to argue that Sasuke alone will kill Orion but he isn't alone here. MMH should easily dispatch Ashrym's team with TP. So it's two on one. MMH alone is a match for Orion and with Sasuke's abilities they have more than enough power to pull this off.

MMH can physically match Orion, he is far more versatile, while sasuke can use his attacks from far such sword teleportation or amaterasu. Which will in turn just overwhelm Orion.

According to my opponent, one of MMH's trump cards is phasing his opponents. He has even gone as far to say, "And there has been no counter to phasing. MMH can just mess up his brain and be done with it."

Apparently, he overlooked the fact that I countered this in my very first post:

"Then the Motherbox boosts this durability and the healing factor to whole another level. First, the Motehrbox protects atomic manipulation which should come in handy against phasing, and it can also heal Orion if needed."

But since it was overlooked, I'll elaborate here.

This scan shows that the Motherbox is capable of countering any kind matter manipulation of molecular level. The scan clearly says that if not for the Motherbox constantly reassemlbing Orion's molecular makeup he'd be torn asunder.

If a force that that powerful enough to rip apart Orion at the molecular level can be countered by the Motherbox why would MMH's phasing be any different. Even if MMH resorted to phasing his opponents which isn't his go to move anyways, the Motherbox will simply put Orion back together.

And this is stacked upon Orion's own resistance to transmutation/ molecular manipulation.

Even without his Motherbox, Orion been able to resist transmutation from Slig who was capable of transmuting the whole world's sea life into giant leviathans and Jokeresque fish.

Needless to say, phasing isn't a factor in this battle nor has it been since my intro post.

This also debunks the argument that MMH can "telekinectically blow him up", but just in case you aren't convinced yet I'll provide few reasons why this shouldn't have been brought up.

1.) This definitely isn't character for MMH. Considering this is only time I've seen him do this, and the fact that the scan seems to have a lot of context behind it , you need to explain why MMH would resort to using this type of attack and why never uses this against opponents on a similiar level as Orion such as: Superman or Black Adam or Triumph.

2.) Orion is far more durable than a random White Martian. Unless, you can show me that MMH's telekinesis surpass the damage output of the Omega Beams, or full out energy blasts from Lightray, the same guy who can make suns, or the Si'vaa, the same being that was going to bring the end of the universe, etc... than this argument is irrelevant.

3.) And even if you prove the first two, the Motherbox would simply put him back together as I've shown earlier.

I don't see anything that suggest that Orion is close to Black Adam or Atrocitus in physical combat.

Not really, I have shown MMH is more than a match in physicals

My overall point in strength though is that MMH is atleast equal to Orion due to have similar feats.

Apparently, the Motherbox's counter to molecular manipulation wasn't the only thing overlooked here.

First off, Orion is superior to both Black Adam and Atrocitus in physical combat. I've already shown that he is capable of ripping Darkseid's heart out, Darkseid that stomped Superman,stomped Kalibak, and beat Jimmy Olsen (with power of most of the New Gods) with his bare hands. Not only that Orion's lowest physical showing is matching Superman who beat Black Adam in his own right.

Second, you keep bringing up MMH's fight with Triumph as if that puts him on the same level as the Dog of War. This will be the third time that I've covered this in the match of the tourney, but I think it's necessary as you don't seem to grasp the meaning of the feat. Orion has fought a sun-dipped Superman on even footing This isn't the same Superman that failed to take Triumph out. This is the Superman that breezed through the Justice League and that had to be restrained by MMH, Wonder Woman, Big Barda and others.

Besides that, I showed in the last post that Orion has fought/destroyed a squad of elite New God soldiers (who each operate on the level of kyrptonians) which is something MMH cannot replicate. The only thing that comes close to this is when slaughtered the White Martians when he was Fernus and exploiting their weakness to fire.

Physical attacks on their own will not put down someone who can regen.

I'm glad you think this especially considering the Motherbox's to heal Orion and Orion own healing factor. Also, I find this belief interesting when the following people have given MMH trouble on physicality alone in the past: Black Adam, Doomsday, Superboy (New 52), Atrocitus(New 52) etc...

If you don't believe the Superboy feat then here

I can go on to as why Orion is superior to MMH physically,but I think I have down enough in my first two posts. In short, if MMH goes up close he'll get clobbered to say the least.

As I've said twice now, exploiting the fire weakness merely makes the fight go down easier. Both Ashyrm and I have shown that MMH clearly has a fire weakness to exploit.

The scans speak for them selves really. If MMH was just weak to fire, why would they need to go through the process of pumping with Tranquilizers? Because even with fire, MMH is more than capable of fighting back at full power. It may affect him but MMH can still move and fight at high levels despite being on fire. So they need tranquilizers

The scans seem to suggest the fire weakness was the only reason why the tranquilizers worked in the first place. If it was just the darts keeping him down then why would they need the ring of fire in order to keep him weak. The fact is that fire makes him operate at a lower level than normal thus making it easier to put him down.

Also, I don't need to prove that Orion's flames are as hot as the sun as the fire used to put out of commission in Final Crisis was well... a normal fire.

I mean the feat speaks for itself the flame takes away from his strength thus increasing the disadvantage MMH was already at. Seriously, he was struggling with putting down Luthor, Effigy, Grodd, Sivana, Talia al Ghul, Ocean Master, Dr. Light and Vandal Savage none of whom operate on the level of Orion at least physically.

In regards to Slig well first of all this was in 1971. Which is pre-crisis, so it isn't appilcable to this battle since all DC characters are post crisis. Your scan of him matching the omega effect is pre-crisis as well. So that feat is not applicable either.

The New Gods weren't rebooted by COIE so these feats still apply. But even if don't I've shown Orion giving Mantis the same treatment he gave Slig and I've shown that Orion has matched the Omega Effect other times as well.

I see no reason why he shouldn't. You have shown no quantifiable speed for the astro-force blasts Scaling off Omega effect doesn't really work, matching a blast doesn't mean it is as fast.

I admit I didn't really explain this well enough the first time, but the point I was getting is that Orion can let off a blast fast enough to react to the Omega Effect.

Besides this, the fact that is that the blast can cover large areas of effect. No matter how fast Sasuke is he can't dodge an attack that can cover the whole battlefield almost instantly as seen here...

One panel I'd like to show in particular is this...

Orion uses the Astro-Force to almost instantly raze a large part of Apokalips... There is nothing showing that he can avoid a constant barrage of blasts as shown in the link or AOE attack of that caliber. Even he can dodge one attack he'll just caught up in the area of effect.

After rereading some of Naruto, I remembered that this attack can be dodged if you are fast enough. (IIRC The Raikage dodged the attack). And given the fact that Orion is fast enough to blitz an entire space armada almost instantly, can move like a ray of light, gains on the Black Racer simulcrum , evades firetalons while blind etc... He should be able to do this and more.

Like I said before, unless you prove that Sasuke can teleport things into people as durable as Orion then this attack won't work.

And yes, Orion does have piercing durability feats, here he tanks Sivaa's, the end-bringer of the universe, energy blades effortlessly while Superman has to shield himself after being knocked away.

Once again, Sasuke has to accomplish this while dodging the AOE attacks like I've shown earlier. Even if he suceeds at launching the attack and on top of that he succeeds at impaling Orion, he can tank it. Keep in mind this is the same guy that Orion is the same guy that stood up right after being shot with radion (New God kryptonite) bullets.

Then on top of that, Motherbox can just heal him in addition to his own healing factor.