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#1 Edited by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

Teams:

@cosmicallyaware1

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  1. Stargirl(1)
  2. Firestorm(3)
  3. Power Girl(2)
  4. Aquaman(water hand and trident)(3)
  5. Citizen Steel(1)
  6. Maxima(3)

@knightofzero:

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  1. Nova Prime(3)
  2. Vulcan(2)
  3. Ultron(5)
  4. Perk: 1 hour prep

Battlefield:

Bottled Kandor
Bottled Kandor

Rules:

  1. Win by any means but BFR.
  2. Standard gear for all characters unless otherwise mentioned.
  3. Characters are in character.
  4. Team work is a factor, but your team will not attack itself.
  5. Characters only know as much about the opposing team as they already do.
  6. Rounds are death matches, but MAY have a mission element.
  7. No time travel.
  8. No collecting OP items with prep.
  9. No PIS or plot powers.
  10. I will ref matches.
  11. There is no time limit on matches. Take as long as needed.
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#2 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser quick question before i start:

  1. can character's prep in their own universe?
  2. can ultron bring in his drones for the fight with his prep?
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#5 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

quick question before i start:

  1. can character's prep in their own universe?
  2. can ultron bring in his drones for the fight with his prep?

Characters have both universes for prep.

As many as he can get in an hour.

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#7 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 you too. Lets have a good debate :)

awesome man. its really cool to face a new debater, by all means feel free to go first considering that you have prep.

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#9 Posted by Iragexcudder (9461 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1@highaccuser

alright, this post is going to be for my prep, so it will be a little short:

Ultron will use his hour prep to activate and control of all of his ultron drones, iron man's suits, and go to steal some of bruce banner's tech (specifically, his old power shield and old power taser).

here we have ultron taking over iron man's extremis suit

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and here we see he can control multiple forms of technology (the shield helecarier and life model decoy's) with out needing to be there:

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so, being able to take over iron man's suits and control his various clones should be no problem

Ultron will give the power shield to Vulcan. the shield was strong enough to withstand a full power punch from Juggernaut:

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this punch registered an 8 on the richter scale (which is anywhere between 160 megatons and 1 gigaton worth of force that the shield could withstand).

Now, this part might not happen until the fight starts (which i will do in a later post), but Nova Prime can use the Worldmind to scan his opponent opponent and download their profiles directly into his mind. So what he can do is scan a kryptonian on Kandor and, from their profile, discover that they lose their powers when exposed to red sun rays or kryptonite (something that can be replicated by vulcan)

That does it for my prep. i will post my fight strategy later

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#12 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1

Alright, lets take a look at my team:

(And just for a heads up, while i will use scans when i can, it is highly unlikely that i will be use scans for every claim i make)

Also, one more question for @highaccuser. Is vulcan from when he had darwin inside his body?

Nova Prime

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So, Richard Rider is the sole host of what is called the "Nova Force" (it is often compared to the power cosmic in terms of the type of power it is). The nova force was spread over many members of the nova corp, but since they all died, Rider now has the entire power inside of his body, granting him the following powers:

  • Super Strength (Easily over the 100 ton range and was capable of trading blows with thor and Silver Surfer))
  • Super Speed (Easily runs over several hundred miles per hour and is capable of faster than light travel)
  • Super Human Stamina
  • Super Human Agility
  • Healing Factor
  • Flight (Generally travels at supersonic speeds while on a planet, but only because his full speed would cause major damage to the planet itself. He is capable of interstellar travels at faster than FTL speeds and can even enter hyperspace)
  • Energy Generation:
    • Concussive blasts
    • Portals for teleportation
    • Gravemetric Beams (fired from any part of his body or a giant pulse from his entire body)
    • Electromagnetic discharges that can nullify gravity

He is also in possession of the Xandarian Worldmind, an entity that lives within his head that does the following for him:

  • Allows for his shots to be accurate within millimeters
  • Offers advice and can warn him of threats
  • Controls his body while sleeping or unconscious
  • Detects enemies and energy surges
  • Scans and downloads opponents profiles into his head. Can also analyze the attackers
  • Hacking into satellite tv's and allowing him to transmit his voice through the airwaves. Can also hack high security computer systems
  • Protects him from psychic attacks via psi shields

Some of his impressive feats (a few of which i have already stated) is that he can go Toe to Toe with the likes of thor and silver surfer:

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1-2: Nova not only taking blows from thor full on (and still be able to fight), but deliver blows to thor that visible stagger and wound him

3-8: Nova vs silver surfer. Again, he can take blows from him, but also evade attack from surfer and deal attacks powerful enough to cause harm and knock him off his board. His strength is virtually equal to him as he manages to hold him off and force them to crash land on the planet below.

The last thing i have to say about Rider is that his destructive force was once quoted to "be able to destroy everything in a 3 mile radius). And to show that this wasnt empty boasting:

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He lobotomized Ego, the living planet. To do this, he must have destroyed a large part of ego's brain. Considering he is planet sized, that would have to have been at minimum, a several mile chuck of land that had to be destroyed.

Vulcan

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Gabriel Summers is an Omega Level Mutant with the main powers of Energy Absorption and manipulation. He is well known for conquering and becoming the emperor of the technologically superior Shi'ar empire.

His powers include:

  • Energy Absorption (absorbs all forms of energy)
  • Energy Manipulation (controls all forms of energy. Magic, radiation, concussive blasts, lighting, ect)
  • Flight (interstellar and Light speeds)
  • Solid energy constructs (think green lantern)
  • Telekenisis via using energy to move things
  • suppression of mutant powers (wont really be used here)
  • energy detection
  • regeneration
  • Power Siphoning (draining other people's energy)
  • Psionic resistance

i dont really have a lot of scans for vulcan, so this part will be short, until i find some better showings for him:

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1-2 (Sorry, loaded those backwards. it should read 2 then 1). Vulcan easily drains adam warlock's energy via power siphoning to the point where warlock said that he was feeling very drained within seconds and needed to run away

3: vulcan effortlessly blocks a big attack from havok

Ultron

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Ah, my heavy hitter. Lets see what this guy can do:

  • Superhuman strength (over 100 tons)
  • Superhuman speed
  • Superhuman durability (made entirely out of adamantium. tanked shots from thor with no damage and survived the concussive blast and heat of a 100 megaton atomic bomb)
  • Flight
  • Plama beams
  • tractor beams
  • Encephalo-beam (used to put people into "Death-like" comas or hypnotize them)
  • Energy absorption (can convert energy into electricity for blasts or store for later use)
  • Technopathy (able to control all forms of technology. Computers, vehicles, robots, ect)

To get a better sense of how powerful he is, let me show you some of his feats for durability:

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1: Thor's strongest hit can only put the smallest dent in adamantium

2: A full on shot by thor's hammer does nothing to ultron

3: Ultron vs thor and simon. Ultron kicks both of their asses until PSI comes in with ironman threatening to kill ultron's woman

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1-2: Ultron easily puts down hawkeye, quicksilver and cheetah

3-4: Ultron vs Grim Reaper. not only does he beat him, but we see that ultron can repair (regenerate) broken parts of his body

There is much more to go for ultron, but because it is past midnight when i am posting this, i will give more stuff for ultron as needed

So, there is 1 thing my team has in common: Immunity to telepathic attacks. So im going to go ahead and say that Maxima's mental powers will be basically useless.

So, here is how i see the fight going:

My team should be able to overwhelm your team with the extra ultron drones and iron man suits ultron hacked. I dont see maxima or stargirl lasting very long in the fight. and even if they do, vulcan and nova will still be able to take them out via their superior fire power. Vulcan can drain the stargirl's energy from her staff and blast her into dust.

Citizen steel should also go down pretty quickly. While he is very durrable, i still think the sheer destructive force that nova has should be able to overpower him. and if not, ultron frequently goes toe to toe with thor, so citizen steel shouldnt be much of a problem,

The only people i need to worry about on your team is Aquaman, firestorm and power girl. However, powergirl should go down pretty quickly. Here is why: because nova can scan opponents and would likely have scanned the kryptonians, he can tell vulcan about their weaknesses to red solar rays and kryptonite. Vulcan will be able to do any of the following to take her down:

  • because he can generate any form of radiation, he can produce red solar rays to weaken her
  • he can do the same thing with by generating kryptonite radiation (though this is harder because he wouldn't know much about kryptonite)
  • he can also use his energy siphoning to drain power girl of her solar radiation, stripping her of her powers

It is also likely that vulcan can also deal with firestorm in a similar manner via energy draining. But by this point, my team outnumbers your team with 3 characters to 2 plus the ultron drones and iron man suits flying around. Not to mention, ultron can hack any other technology kandor has to offer, giving him more of an edge.

So:

Conclusion

  • Maxima, citizen steel and stargirl die very quickly
  • Vulcan strips powergirl of her powers via red solar radiation and siphoning her solar radiation, killing her shortly after.
  • My team and the reinforcements that we brought clean up the last 2. Shouldnt be all that hard due to my team members regularly dealing with thor and silver surfer (and stalemating them if not outright winning). Aquaman isnt on their level, and firestorm wont live long against the full force of the rest of my team

you're up

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#13 Edited by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser alright, thank you. i will edit my post to remove the darwin stuff

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#16 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: ok here we go...............and BTW, I really like scans lol. Not that i don't properly balance out with more than adequate verbage and dissertations. To me comics are a visual art form, and I like to showcase that in threads, just sayin.

Introductions!!!!

Stargirl (Courtney Whitmore)

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A "Legacy" character carrying on the mantle of The Star Spangled Kid and the Starman (Knight) family traditions. Courtney weilds one of the most portent and powerful versions of the Cosmic Rod (formerly Star rod, Gravity Rod) and the Cosmic Converter Belt. She has been one of the most fresh and innovate additions to the JSA and can hold her weight against the most powerful cosmic and magical entities, a vastly underrated character.

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The Star Rod

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The Cosmic Rod gives the user the ability of flight and the ability to convert the star energy into powerful blasts. Different variations have allowed different abilities including; levitating objects, creating force fields for both offense and defensive, manipulating energy, absorbing energy, negating TP/Psychic thralls, negating Magics, and creating simple energy constructs. The rod also will "attune its self" to the user allowing the user to control the rod by thought

Firestorm (composite - Ronnie, Jason)

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The Nuclear Man. The Transmutation King. Firestorm is the individual with the ability to rearrange the molecular structure of elements. He has been in many incarnations of the JLA, and an extremely versatile individual. In his powerset includes the abilities of: transmutation, offensive energy blasts, flight, density control/phasing, and TP resistance.

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Power Girl (Kara Zor-l)

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The Kryptonian powerhouse cousin to Superman. Although her history has gotten a bit stretched around, she is a staple in the powerhouse category. An integral part of the JSA and JLA families respectively for years, Kara is one serious heavy hitter. In the upper echelon of DCU powerhouses she is compared along the lines of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Black Adam. She brings all the trademark traits of the Krypontian race to the table: speed/flight, strength, durability, and those extra goodies such as heat vision, xray vison, and freeze breath.

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Aquaman (water hand + Trident)

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good 'ol Arthur Curry, the Monarch of Atlantis and King of the Seven Seas. One of the founding members of the Justice League (pre 52) and one of DC's most recognized characters. Arthur, even though not quite at Kryptonian power levels is very close in the strength and durability levels with the addition of limited TP abilities. In this incarnation of the Water hand.......The mechanical harpoon hand was replaced by a magical hand made out of water given to him by the Lady of the Lake, which grants Aquaman numerous abilities; the ability to dehydrate anyone he touches with it, killing them instantly, the ability to change the shape and density of the hand for example he can make his hand into a sword or harder than steel, shoot jets of scalding water, healing abilities, the ability to create portals into mystical dimensions, communicate with the Lady of the Lake through the water bearer hand and the ability to nullify magic even powerful sorcerers like Tempest.

and in regards to his trident:

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The King's Trident

Pre-New 52:

Aquaman's Trident had the ability to manipulation water and fire powerful energy bolts. From time to time, the trident has been able to augment the magical abilities of his allies. Like its New 52 version, it is indestructible as well.

New 52:

Aquaman's Trident (crafted by the first king of Atlantis) is his standard weapon of choice. It's indestructible, and able to hurt even the toughest of opponents, even being the only leaguer to puncture Darkseid. He has also been depicted of breaking though the magical ice barrier of Graves that seemed impossible at the time or cut through steel like nothing. Said to be the most powerful among a set of weapons created by Atlantean artifacts from the hands of the first king of Atlantis, Aquaman is always carrying it with him as a symbol of his authority and a deadly weapon if the need arises (although any further powers have yet to be revealed).

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Citizen Steel (Nathan Heywood)

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Nathan Heywood is the grandson of the original Commander Steel aka Henry Heywood and the cousin of the previous Steel,Henry Heywood III. Nate was transformed into the metallic powerhouse he is now by a freak byproduct of defending himself from an attack by the metallic Reichsmark (a member of by the Fourth Reich, a group put together by Vandal Savage to destroy the Justice Society of America). Known as Citizen Steel, Nate has proven to have insane durability, strength (along the lines of Kingdom Come Superman) and few shown weaknesses along with quite the fighting spirit.

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Maxima

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Maxima once ruled a vast intergalactic empire centered on her homeworld of Almerac. As an Almeracian of Royal descent, Maxima's immense powers stem from having been the product of gene therapy and generations of selective breeding. She was originally a Superman foe, and has in turn become a valued ally and trusted member of the JLA. She is a TP/TK juggernaut along with intense speed/flight, strength and durability.

here is some additional info on her capabilities:

Stats!!!

Strength

Being able to lift well over 100 tons under normal conditions, Maxima possesses a level of superhuman strength that puts her in Wonder Woman's and Superman's class. In addition, her psionic abilities allow her to augment her physical prowess beyond those in her tier. During Doomsday's first battle with the Justice League, other than Superman, Maxima was the only other League member able to trade blows with him

Speed

Maxima's first appearances demonstrated a degree of speed in combat that went well into the hypersonic. In Action Comics No. 651, Superman observed Maxima using her telekinesis to pilot Sazu back to her orbiting spaceship at escape velocity while rocketing there herself. Superman flew in to intercept, but instead of getting Maxima to break from her straight escape trajectory, the fiery monarch engaged Earth's Mightiest Hero head on in a game of chicken. As the two were about to pass one another, she reached out, grabbed his arm, and performed a judo throw on the Man of Steel. On another occasion, while observing Jay Garrick fight at super speed in Justice League America No. 78, Maxima remarked that he was fighting at a level of skill and intensity that would make a warrior of Almerac proud. Finally, Maxima and Superman traded blows for the last time out in space during the Our Worlds At War event. The lead-up to this last encounter is noteworthy since earlier, Superman and Kyle Rayner were doing a quick circuit of the solar system. Before their warm-up was interrupted by Maxima, Superman made mention of the sun being unblocked by Earth's atmosphere while doing loop-de-loops around the young Green Lantern.

Teleportation

Maxima has been seemingly conservative with the use of this powerful skill in combat. By contrast, the Warrior Queen has shown no qualms teleporting those she has deemed beneath her. That being said, she has demonstrated the capacity to forego her bloodlust, and use her teleportation strategically when more is on the line. When she first appeared on Earth in the flesh, she employed this ability in more of a theatrical way as a means to instill fear in her servant, Sazu.

In Action Comics No. 645, when Maxima could not find Earth's Champion at the Daily Planet, she quickly teleported herself, Sazu, and Malcolm to Metropolis City Hall, and held Mayor Berkowitz hostage with the goal of coaxing Superman out of hiding. During the "Panic In the Sky!" story arc, while governing her passions closely by maintaining the ruse of an Alliance with Brainiac, she used this ability to retreat when Matrix Supergirl, and Draaga ceased being mind-slaves in the middle of a heated battle.

She has shown the ability to teleport herself or others in and out of a battle over interstellar distances. In Justice League America No. 66, while she was attempting to win Superman's heart as a Justice League member, Maxima complied with Earth's judicial process by teleporting Sazu back to Metropolis. Maxima mentioned that Sazu was teleported to Earth from a prison on a distant planet. This feat is especially noteworthy since in earlier appearances, both Maxima and Sazu have stated that Earth is a backwater world far from established star routes. Moreover, in Superman Man of Steel No. 115, Adam Strange used his Zeta-Beam technology to teleport Superman and himself from Earth's solar system to Almeracian space. The Savior of Rann mentioned a distance traveled of 100 trillion light years.

Forcefeild Projection

Maxima can generate defensive force-field bubbles to shield herself, and or others. This skill allows her to travel unaffected by the intense pressures of the ocean's depths, or the vaccuum of outer space. She can also use this skill for offense by trapping an opponent and constricting the space inside the shield, crushing them, or letting the air run out.

In Aquaman No. 41, Power Girl attempted an underwater ambush on Maxima's shield as the King of Atlantis was being psionically assaulted inside. Maxima's shield didn't drop, but Kara's surprise attack winded the Almeracian warrior briefly. Although Aquaman took the opportunity to mention that Maxima's force bubble wouldn't be able to hold up to the pounding of Power Girl's punches, Maxima's shield was more solid for Kara's second punch

Ferrokinesis

Maxima has exhibited immense telekinetic control over metals at the molecular level. She can cause metal to melt with a thought, or rearrange the molecules of scraps into anything she chooses, such as weapons or armor. In Justice League America No. 63, Maxima used her psionic power over metal to breach the hull of a wrecked interstellar craft that was submerged at the bottom of Manhattan's East River.

Three more examples of her ferrokinesis are in the following three books. Extreme Justice No. 6, Maxima used this ability to isolate herself atop a massive metal tower. When Captain Atomascended the tower to try and reason with her, Maxima restrained him with metal tendrils that she animated in a liquid-like fashion out of the structure around her. In Justice League America No. 73, Dr. Destiny was responsible for making several Justice League members act very much out of character. The rogue heroes were capturing, torturing, and maiming super-villains. When one of the prison ships that they were using to capture super-villains attacked Maxima, she focused her ferrokinesis into a beam, and disassembled the ship into its separate components without incinerating the men inside. Later, in the same story-arc told in Justice League America No. 75 , Maxima directed this ability on the Red Tornado, easily pulling him apart.

Matter Manipulation

In addition to metals, Maxima has demonstrated the ability to alter other inorganic matter with a thought. The full extent of Maxima's skill in this area is unknown. InAction Comics #645, Maxima's entourage coordinated a rendezvous with a fashion designer. Ultimately, none of Maxima's attendants expected to pay for anything, so the designer and her company of models were rudely escorted out of the meeting room. Soon afterward, while barefoot, and wearing a small bathrobe, she transmuted what little she had on into one of the ensembles she had just seen: a power suit jacket, blouse, black skirt, high heels, and a gold chain choker. She also did this in Justice League America No. 66, when at the request of Superman to be more conservatively dressed, Maxima transmuted the typical light armor that she usually wore into a green suit jacket and skirt.

Mind Bolts

The powerful Almeracian Mind Bolt, Psi-bolt, or Psychic Blast is a favorite of those in the Royal House. This skill is typically depicted as emanating from an Almeracian's forehead. Unlike the optical force beams, the Mind Bolt targets an opponent's mind directly by delivering pain, unconsciousness, brain damage, or even death. Regardless of all his physical strength and Mother Box enhanced defenses, Orion was quickly rendered paralyzed when Maxima turned this deadly power on him during the ' Panic In The Sky' event in Superman No. 65. At the conclusion of the same story arc in Superman No. 66, Maxima was in the process of killing Brainiac using this ability, but Superman intervened just before it was too late. Brainiac was left in a lobotomized state

Invulnerability

Thanks to her Almeracian physiology, Maxima is nearly impervious to injury. Her level of resistance to physical harm approaches that of a Kryptonian. In addition, as Maxima is able to boost her constitution and physical strength attributes by channeling her psionic powers internally, her resistance to physical harm also increases. During the Death of Superman story arc, besides the Man of Steel himself, Maxima was the only Justice League member durable enough to fight Doomsday evenly. InSuperman No. 159, the Man of Steel used his X-Ray vision on Maxima to find weaknesses he could exploit with pressure point attacks. Although he connected with a two finger jab to her midsection, the Warrior Queen quickly shook off the attack and kept fighting.

TP / Mind Control / Illusion Casting / Hypnosis

The Empress of Almerac has the ability to paralyze an opponent with her gaze. Against enemies with greater willpower, this skill has shown to be particularly effective as a lead in to another attack. In Action Comics No. 645, her duplicate used this skill on Lois Lane, and the staff at the Daily Planet, leaving them all standing around like zombies. Later that morning, Clark arrived and got Lois to snap out of her trance by shaking her and shouting. During Maxima's first face to face encounter with Superman, she used this skill to freeze the Man of Steel, leaving him more susceptible to her illusion casting. Despite her rather unfocused and irrational behavior in Aquaman No. 41, during a melee with Doctor Polaris, she lured him into her stare. Dolphin took advantage, and delivered an uppercut to his jaw while he was still disoriented. Maxima has shown the ability to project powerful illusions into the minds of others. InAction ComicsNo. 651, Maxima cast the illusion into Superman's mind that he was a warlord on the Almeracian Queen's home world. The overriding presence of the Eradicator in Superman's mind at the time exposed the false reality for what it was. InSuperman Man of Tomorrow No. 10, Maxima used her illusions against Dana Dearden, an obsessed Superman fan called Obsession. In the illusion, Superman had separated into four differently colored supermen. As the Empress of Almerac wanted Superman for herself, she showed each of the supermen disintegrating into powder. The ruse helped implant the suggestion into Obsession's mind that her love would bring Superman to an early end, and so she fled

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and with that out of the way................

Opener!!!!! How I see the battle unfolding.............

*lemme come back in and edit this later, gotta go now. will have this done by end of night and then back over to you. I'll PM ya when done ;)

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#17 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: sorry man, got distracted by real life stuff. Will finish my 1st post and get my stuff up later tonight. My bad.

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#20 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: sorry for the delay bro. here we go............

The Opener!!!!!

first off let me go over some of the things you have presented thus far........

Ultron will use his hour prep to activate and control of all of his ultron drones, iron man's suits, and go to steal some of bruce banner's tech (specifically, his old power shield and old power taser)

Some main clarification points on this: how is that going to be accomplished if they are in the Bottled City of Kandor? Is this before they are placed there? Is he being teleported somehow? Does he automatically know where to go to obtain banner tech? Will it be that easy for him?

Sorry, the prep plan doesn't seem to plausible to me considering the location. If you can clear that up for me, then all good. If not, then I will proceed as the prep is null and void.............

Nova Prime can use the Worldmind to scan his opponent opponent and download their profiles directly into his mind. So what he can do is scan a kryptonian on Kandor and, from their profile, discover that they lose their powers when exposed to red sun rays or kryptonite

whereas this is a sound strategy, I feel that it just isn't very applicable.

  1. the scanning an opponent (or an individual) and putting the profile in his mind..........isn't a tactic that has been demonstrated many tim es (if at all.....I'm searching for an example of it happening, if you have one please post it). I can think of many encounters Rich has had and never employed such an ability.
  2. even if such............is it feasable that that would work with beings from a different universe? Worldmind has tons of info stored from the 616, but how well do you think the scanning ability would work on unknowns? It has not worked so well in the past....
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"I am unable to identify it". and that was from native universe. So even if that tactic was employed...........I'm saying that akin to this scenario.........Worldmind would not get any substantial data on kryptonian physiology.

Nova vs silver surfer. Again, he can take blows from him, but also evade attack from surfer and deal attacks powerful enough to cause harm and knock him off his board. His strength is virtually equal to him as he manages to hold him off and force them to crash land on the planet below

I think you are grossly misinterpreting that battle man. Surfer owned Rich, and Rider was hard pressed to even make any type of defense. Surfer had him beat in speed and every other category. Rich put everything he had in one punch, and all it did was faze Norrin, so I don't see how you equate that to "strength is virtually equal". Norrin was treating Rich as a nusiance there, and hardly put in any effort whatsoever. Plus there is some of the battle that you conveniently left out.

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moving on.................

i dont really have a lot of scans for vulcan, so this part will be short, until i find some better showings for him:

i am very familiar with Vulcan and his capabilities, and have used him in quite a few tourneys. Yeah, he's a beast for sure. However, that doesn't mean that he can't be taken out.

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annnnd that was when he was amped on energies he siphoned off from the Imperial Guard members.

and next:

Ultron. I have a few questions here. Are you using Phalanx Ultron? because depending on what version you are using, it plays a huge factor into his durability and damage soak. I believe that Phalanx Ultron was not compromised of Adamantium. We can go into that more later though.......

now that that's all outta the way, on to the next section..........

So, there is 1 thing my team has in common: Immunity to telepathic attacks. So im going to go ahead and say that Maxima's mental powers will be basically useless

woah there bubba!!! IMMUNE is a strong word. Resistant maybe, but not all. Rich's helmet has a psionic damper in it, but get that off and he's toast. Vulcan? show me. I don't recall any "immunity"......highly resistant, sure. Ultron? ok, I;ll give ya that one. So Maxima's mental powers are far from useless, and she is sporting heck of a lot more versatility in the mental category than just simply TP intrusion/control (see my into info post under the spoiler block)

My team should be able to overwhelm your team with the extra ultron drones and iron man suits ultron hacked. I dont see maxima or stargirl lasting very long in the fight. and even if they do, vulcan and nova will still be able to take them out via their superior fire power. Vulcan can drain the stargirl's energy from her staff and blast her into dust

overwhelm? pfffft. first off, as I've stated earlier.........you gott aback up the validity to that prep. but for the sake of argument, let's say it's all good. You don't see Maxima or Stargirl lasting very long? why is that? Maxima is Superman level durability and was one of the only Leaguers during the Death of Superman arc that was able to hold her own solo against Doomsday. Stargirl has very high durability from the rod and cosmic converter belt as well. they will be just fine. Vulcan and Nova's "firepower" isn't superior to anything that these two have not come across previously. And in regards to Vulcan draining stargirl's staff? hell no. Never been done, even by other accomplished energy drainers. It continually draws on an unlimited power source, so I don't believe that it can even BE drained.

And in regards to all these drones and inanimate objects flying about (iron man hacked suits)............you do know that Firestorm employs transmutation right?

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Citizen steel should also go down pretty quickly. While he is very durrable, i still think the sheer destructive force that nova has should be able to overpower him. and if not, ultron frequently goes toe to toe with thor, so citizen steel shouldnt be much of a problem

In all actuality, Citizen Steel hasn't "gone down" too many times at all in his time, if any that I can recall. He isn't just "very" durable, he's insanely durable. If you are sayingthat Nova is the one to take him out though, it seems you are stretching Nova fairly thin at this point thus far. I will get to how all myh team operates in a bit though. As far as for Ultron against Nate.....That would be interesting. I am not saying that Nate would take him out all himself, or if he even could....but it would be a good fight.

First let me give you a little info on Nate:

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2000 pound = 1 ton

280,000 pound ( which is the strength per square inch of the metal uniform he wears)= 140 ton

it has been estimated that around the elbow would be 4 square inches (at least) of the alloy. So just to bend his elbow in uniform requires strength of around 520 tons right?. Technically his little finger would have one square inch around it so even that could lift 140. Now that's impressive. Well above 100 ton strength class. Ultron faces foes in that strength range regularly as you referenced Thor. So he may just have an easy time ripping Ultron apart (obviously, if it's Phalanx, that tactic may be moot....) which I will show an interesting Wonder MAn fight in second....but first let me show Citizen Steel doing something very interesting.....

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This is from JSA, when they faced a celestial/godlike level being named Gog (check out the link!). The showing is impressive due to 3 thinks: 1.) that Nate was able to hold his ground against an attack that the other JSA members (including Kingdom Come Superman) could not 2.) Nate was able to use sufficient enough striking power to make a significant impact against the being's durability level and 3.) the tearing of his own uniform's alloy shell.

The mere fact that he can so easily tear a metal alloy that has 280,000 pounds per square tensile strength from his head to his waist ( and I'm pretty sure he's over 6 foot) is testament to his strength. Just walking and moving his arms is in itself!!!!.What is also significant is that the armor reduces his strength by "at least half".

Now let's see Ultron in a showing against Wonder Man (whom strength level is relatively comparative if not lower)

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interesting indeed.

The only people i need to worry about on your team is Aquaman, firestorm and power girl. However, powergirl should go down pretty quickly. Here is why: because nova can scan opponents and would likely have scanned the kryptonians, he can tell vulcan about their weaknesses to red solar rays and kryptonite. Vulcan will be able to do any of the following to take her down:

because he can generate any form of radiation, he can produce red solar rays to weaken her

he can do the same thing with by generating kryptonite radiation (though this is harder because he wouldn't know much about kryptonite)

he can also use his energy siphoning to drain power girl of her solar radiation, stripping her of her powers

It is also likely that vulcan can also deal with firestorm in a similar manner via energy draining. But by this point, my team outnumbers your team with 3 characters to 2 plus the ultron drones and iron man suits flying around. Not to mention, ultron can hack any other technology kandor has to offer, giving him more of an edge

ok, let me break this down:

I've talked a little about Firestorm thus far, but not Arthur or Karen. But first, you have all of my team to really worry about, and the key reason here is the word "team". All these members of my team are aware of others abilities, have fought along side one another, and are used to working in a team setting to beat an opponent. Your team does not have that with the exception of Nova (kinda, he likes to act solo a lot....lol, unless you really count the New Warriors. kid Nova. hehe.....) Also you really have failed to have a lot of credibility to your presentation thus far as I have illustrated.

In regards to Power Girl:

  • I don't see her goin down very quickly for a multitude of reasons. 1) Karen and Vulcan are from two different universes, he will not know anything about Red Solar Rays or Kryptonite radiation. 2.) Powergirl's substantial speed, durability, and strength levels. I already showed Vulcan getting beat down by Gladiator, how would that be any different from a Kryptonian?
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In regards to Firestorm:

  • I can't say that Vucan draining off Firestorm isn't a possibility. However, I don't see it coming to that and both Firestorm and Vulcan will be dealing with other issues.

So you said:

Conclusion

  • Maxima, citizen steel and stargirl die very quickly
  • Vulcan strips powergirl of her powers via red solar radiation and siphoning her solar radiation, killing her shortly after.
  • My team and the reinforcements that we brought clean up the last 2. Shouldnt be all that hard due to my team members regularly dealing with thor and silver surfer (and stalemating them if not outright winning). Aquaman isnt on their level, and firestorm wont live long against the full force of the rest of my team

and............in reply:

  • Nope. Not even remotely close.
  • Nope. already covered that.
  • Nope. reinforcements easily dealt with. Time to present a revised strategy man.

and with that outta the way let me present my side.....

The JLA/JSA Composite go on the offensive!!!!!

First off..........this is how I see it goin down.

  1. Firestorm and Stargirl take out reinforcement "fodder" (i still say that the prep plan is flawed, but just for sake of argument)
  2. Nova Prime VS. Maxima
  3. Power Girl and Aquaman VS. Vulcan
  4. Citizen Steel, Stargirl, and Firestorm VS. Ultron

First off, Courtney has the ability to do power draining/manipulation of energy herself, so any fodder empowerment source can be interrupted by her.

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In this showing, she completely drained the energy from several city blocks and blacked out a huge area of the city to create a distraction for a school hostage situation.

and Firestorm can easily transmute any of the fodder to whatever is wished

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Firestorm has the ability to rearrange the atomic and subatomic structure of inorganic matter, rearranging subatomic particles to create objects of different atomic characteristics of equal mass. He can not only change and transmute the atomic composition of an object (e.g., transmuting lead into gold of equal mass) but he can also change its shape. Is it true that all matter is simply condensed energy? Pretty much. If you can get enough energy into one place (generally light or kinetic energy), then you’ll get a (mostly random) variety of particles popping out. The conversion between mass and energy is so ubiquitous in physics, that most physicists only know the mass of particles in the context of their equivalent energy. The only thing that keeps particles from turning back into energy (again, usually light and kinetic) are “conserved quantities”. If you’ve taken an intro physics course you should be familiar with conservation of energy and momentum..

next up is Nova Prime VS. Maxima.

The "Power Princess" will tackle the Nova Prime. She is the best bet to combat his speed and Gravemetric capabilities. Maxima has Strength, Durability, Speed and Reactionary abilities on par with The Man of Steel which will come in handy against Rich, and will utilize her TK abilities to counter his Gravemetrics. From there she will be able to off balance him enough to get her TP/metal abilities in place.

Rich may be fast, but his reactionary skills are not as fast as his flat out maxed travel speed (which he needs to open gates to reach FTL speeds anyway). Maxima has plenty of feats in the speed department, she she can easily compensate with Rich here.

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scans: 1) - 3) speed showings against Superman

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scans: 1) -2) TK (1 = strong enough to dismantle Red Tornado)

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scans: 1) - 3) strength / striking power

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scans: 1) - 6) examples of TP / psibolts against strong opponents with high TP resistance

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here one shotting Orion with a TP attack. Pretty much on same par with Nova Prime (Orion) in regards to resistance.

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and then there's always Hypnosis tactic...............

so............

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and then next up is Power Girl and Aquaman VS. Vulcan

Power Girl and Aquaman are best suited to take Vulcan down. Combination of speedblitz and strong physical attacks without the luxury of any energy siphoning/manipulation for Gabriel. Kara to lead the initial charge and off balance (and taking any damage soak that Gabriel initially discharges) and Arthur playing back up and cleanup with physical attack and low level TP to off balance. Refrains from using Water and at this point so Vulcan does not sap magical energy as he did with Adam Warlock.

Power Girl offensive: speed. strength/striking power, and some damage soak.

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1) striking power vs powerful opponent 2) striking power vs Captain Atom 3) striking power vs Superman & GEO Force (1 shots GEO) 4) - 5) striking power vs cosmic level beings, also durability/damage soak and lifting strength (pies one of the beings hands open from being encapsulated) (beings class 100 strength easy) 7) - 8) speed, damage soak, striking power against Mordru who was amped by Fate's artifacts (and in Arion's body also) 9) - 10) durability, speed, strength against Sand in an Elemental?lava state 11) Striking Power vs Despero (very, very considerable taking into account Despero's physical stats) and 12) striking Power against Solomon Grundy. whew!!!!

understanding that Gabriel has taken a few punches from Gladiator before being put down...however in that showing there was no speedblitz or proof that Kallark had really put much into the blows. It is notable that Vulcan had a relatively tough time physically against Black Bolt, whom is nowhere near Karen's strength level. He's simply not going to be able tro withstand the typr of physical punishment that Power Girl is capable of dishing out.

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and then there's what Arthur will bring to the table in tandem with Karen. Vulcan goes down.

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and yes, that's a new 52 showing where I believe he's a bit stronger than was typically portrayed in the past (on level with Kal and Diana roughly), however during his water hand incarnation he had fair showings physically against quite a few individuals including MMH ...

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and coupled with the addition of his Trident (striking/piercing power), which was powerful enough to pierce Imperiex Probe, I'd say that's enough to take down Gabriel

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and that leaves lastly Citizen Steel, Stargirl, and Firestorm VS. Ultron

Now this is going to be interesting and challenging. Ultron is no joke.......durable, versatile, and high output offensively. He has taken on incredibly powerful individuals solo and in groups respectively. I see him being the biggest threat on your team actually, despite Nova Prime and the Omega Level Mutant.

However, despite all that........my combination of versatility and potently powered individuals here have the capabilities to put Ultron down. Especially these three, in conjunction with one another......have more than enough of what it takes to defeat Ultron. Let me break down why:

1) Stargirl

cosmically empowered offensive and defensive capabilities

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scans: 1) - 2)

The problem for you here is that Stargirl's tech goes beyond pure tech. Ted Knight discovered a certain unique energy frequency / wavelength that he tapped to power his cosmic devices. It's the energy that links all celestial bodies. As these god's in this showing stated she wields cosmic energy, and they seemed impressed/scared about this. In essence she has not one but two devices that draw power from the greatest power source in the universe, and that includes her Cosmic Converter Belt (which was once worn by Silverster Pemberton the Star Spangled Kid).

Even with only the Belt's force field, blasts and the physical upgrades it gives her she could take out lesser foes easily.

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Ted Knight gave Sylvester his Cosmic Rod (later the Cosmic Staff). He then used it to create Cosmic Converter Belt.

what's really impressive about this showing is that the fact of whom the opponent is. Extant. Uber powerful incarnation of Hank Hall from Zero Hour (Hank Hall was also Hawk from HAwk and Dove, and the being known as Monarch).

Stealing the chronal energies of Waverider, the rogue Monarch adopted the guise of the time-warping Extant and joined the former Green LanternHal Jordan - now Parallax- to hasten the breakdown of time and create an entirely new reality of their own design.

It was then revealed that the Team Titans leader in the future was the villainous Monarch - who created a false future world so he could train meta-humans (The Team Titans) to act as sleeper agent assassins. He knew of the impending time crisis, and wanted a super-powered army at his command. Extant commanded all the Team Titans to attack the heroes who were trying to unravel this time crisis. His plan was thwarted; the heroes contained the Teamers.

Threatening to engulf the entirety of creation with the collapsing time stream, Parallax wiped out potential time-lines and drew scores of heroes from various possible eras into battle at the most literal Ground Zero, the beginning of time. There, as Parallax fell , the young Damage exploded , initiated a new "Big Bang" and restarted time. Reality and the time stream were rebuilt at the most basic levels.

But Zero Hour erased the false time-lines that had emerged. As a result, all the Team Titans were erased from existence. It was also during this event that Extant hit Atom with a chronal blast that de-aged him to a teenager. Atom would later lead a short-lived incarnation of the Teen Titans.

So it's very impressive that in that scan that the cosmic converter belt alone had that much effect on Extant.

Who is Extant again?

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Extant Info Scans and Feats::

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Scans: 1) cover shot JSA 2) origin info 3) time manip BFR's opponents 4) cover shot JSA 5) obtains Worlogog / Metron 6), 7), 8) - vs original JSA, depowering....especially impressive with Classic Fate (Kent Nelson whom has feats against Spectre) in 8...9) took Parralax blast to fell him and 10) left side scan, takes down whole JSA one shot blast temporarily.

Add in the Cosmic Rod and all the energy manipulation , not to mention cosmic power it grants her and this becomes even easier against Ultron. The rod allows her complete control over the entire electromagnetic Spectrum and gravity. Basically it's like combining Dr light (any veersion, but really referring to Arthur Light), Magneto and Graviton. This is in addition to her being physically roughly a 50 tonner with enhanced speed and blast, flight etc without it just with the cosmic converter belt.

and here are some examples of what her Star Rod is capable of, even before the upgrade to what she has now.

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These examples below are of Star Rod's inferior to hers, and even taking that into consideration......very impressive showings. The examples are of wielders in the Knight Family previously to Courtney, and used as a comparative example.

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scans: 1) - 3) from All Star Comics #61 (pgs 16,17,18 respectively). Sylvester Pemberton using the rod.

The force fields put out by the old Gravity rod alone withstood the blasts of Vulcan Son of fire, the same Vulcan who's blasts shattered the shields of Alan Scot and put Classic Dr Fate in a coma ( and he had Superman level durability even without his magic)

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Vulcan Feats scans: 1) resists speedblitz 2) breaks Alan Scott GL shields 3) energy output against Alan Scott GL 4) - 5) vs Classic Fate

Shattering and breaking shields as powerful as Alan's, KOing someone like Powergirl, breaking the spells of CLASSIC Dr fate and putting him in a coma shows how powerful of a powerhouse that Vulcan is. Classic Fate had the energy and matter manipulation powers of Silver Surfer + the Physicial powers of Superman + the magic of Classic Strange.

It was Sylvester Pemberton who alone took Vulcan down after he had beat down the rest of the JSA with only one cosmic device (not two like Courtney has) and an iferior one than either that Courtney has.

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scans: 1) - 2) from All Star Squadron #41 (pgs 24, 27 respectively). show Ted Knight's Energy and Matter Manipulation with the rod.

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*(credit to beatboks1 for some of the above data on Courtney, Star/Cosmic/Gravity rod, scan references, etc.......from one of our older battles. he really enlightened me on Courtney.....)

so in conclusion....................... I see Courtney being able to almost take on Ultron herself and be just fine. But she won't be. She has help.............

2) Citizen Steel

physical powerhouse. striking power and durability

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[edit in scans descriptions later, info]

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3) Firestorm

transmutation

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[edit in scans descriptions later, info]

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and there's not even transmuting the being itself that's necessary. If needed, The very air could be transmuted as an effective weapon depending on the situation. What if Firestorm created a bunch of Vibranium? Anti metal that Adamantium is vulnerable to? he wouldn't unless informed of the info seeing as it's not native to the DCu but..........

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Adamantium has proven to be manipulated/altered/warped/broken. Firestorm can alter or weaken Ultron's shell if not completely transmute to another substance.

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[edit in scans descriptions later, info]

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and hopefully that's secondary adamantium there that Thor shatters. But to say the least all of your "Ultron drones" aren't as durable anyway.............

and with that................

i should be good with my opening plan of attack.

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#21 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: To clarify prep, he got a perk by not getting the hero/villain perks. He can prep outside Kandor for an hour before the battle starts.

@highaccuser is my ultron Phalanx ultron?

You can use any Ultron, but if you mean the one made of 15,000 sentrys then no.

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#23 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: To clarify prep, he got a perk by not getting the hero/villain perks. He can prep outside Kandor for an hour before the battle starts.

@knightofzero said:

@highaccuser is my ultron Phalanx ultron?

You can use any Ultron, but if you mean the one made of 15,000 sentrys then no.

alrighty then. well glad I addressed it either way....contingency. Still question portions of it as I asked above. curious if he can answer those questions.

regardless. Phalanx Ultron only had the body (the 15,000 sentries) in one part of the Conquest storyline....his shell/casing kept changing throughout and was a bit ambiguous. Anyway.......does it have to be specified version mike, or using all feats from versions? feel that a specified version should be used (as I am using a specific version of Arthur ie; waterhand)

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#24 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@cosmicallyaware1: To clarify prep, he got a perk by not getting the hero/villain perks. He can prep outside Kandor for an hour before the battle starts.

@knightofzero said:

@highaccuser is my ultron Phalanx ultron?

You can use any Ultron, but if you mean the one made of 15,000 sentrys then no.

alrighty then. well glad I addressed it either way....contingency. Still question portions of it as I asked above. curious if he can answer those questions.

regardless. Phalanx Ultron only had the body (the 15,000 sentries) in one part of the Conquest storyline....his shell/casing kept changing throughout and was a bit ambiguous. Anyway.......does it have to be specified version mike, or using all feats from versions? feel that a specified version should be used (as I am using a specific version of Arthur ie; waterhand)

I don't see why ultron can't be composite. I never specified a version(shortsighted on my part).

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#25 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

I don't see why ultron can't be composite. I never specified a version(shortsighted on my part)

Meh, I kinda wanna present a case why but screw it. Composite is fine I guess. May come to regret that later on but oh well........

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#26 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 while i wait for my response on what version of ultron i have (the strategy will change if its phalanx ultron because i will have access to the phalanx tech and troops) i can show you that my prep is valid just to clear up any misunderstandings:

1st: Prep takes place in the marvel universe. This means that ultron will be able to take over the iron man suits as shown here:

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also, ultron does have his army of ultron clones that he can activate remotely to bring to the fight:

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so, ultron has hundreds if not thousands of ultron clones at his disposal. and in case you doubt ultron's ability to control machinery:

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1: Shuts down the world to all of their satellites

2: Right after activating all of the iron man armors (in the previous scan i posted) he activates all of the missiles from a silo several miles away effortlessly.

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1-8: A secondary adamantium (Which MANY of the ultron clones are made of) gave both Thor and the avengers a beating (taking all of thor's power to put it down). And that was only 1 of them

9: While the avengers battle some of the ultron clones, cap even says that a secondary adamantium ultron is too much for thor and that the only way that they can survive against the army is to pray that thor can do it.

so, with all of this said and done, it should take very little effort for my three team mates to bust in to bruce banner's lab to steal his shit. he knows bruce banner is a brilliant scientist and would know where to find him (even if he didnt, he could either A) hack shield's computers to find out where bruce is or B) straight hack bruce's computers to locate him)

Now, to counter your argument that my team is susceptible to telepathy, let me show you why that is not the case:

  • The only time that Vulcan was ever successfully hit with a mind rape attack came from Rachel Summers (and omega class telepath and daughter of Jean Grey). In order for her to do this, Vulcan had to willingly lower all of his defenses (mental defenses and his guard in general) to share his memories with the rest of the X men. AND to prove that him having 0 defenses is what it took for this to happen, he successfully kidnapped wolverine, cyclops and Rachel with little effort. And yet, Rachel was unable to harm him with her telepathy.
  • Nova Prime's helmet has the xandarian worldmind in it. That would negate maxima's telepathy. end of story. But while yes, with out it, he could be attack, why would it come off? i mean, he has fought people before and it has never come off. Hell, during his fight with silver surfer the helmet was snug on his head, even after crashing into the planet below. So unless your team specifically goes for the helmet (which i highly doubt they do given their lack of knowledge on the character), TP aint working here

Now, with regards to your statement "And in regards to Vulcan draining stargirl's staff? hell no. Never been done, even by other accomplished energy drainers. It continually draws on an unlimited power source, so I don't believe that it can even BE drained"

I didnt mean drain the staff as in take all of the power away from it. I mean that he would be able to absorb any blasts that stargirl sends his way from her staff. Which he would be able to do quite easily

Now, on to addressing your thing on vulcan's durability

i am very familiar with Vulcan and his capabilities, and have used him in quite a few tourneys. Yeah, he's a beast for sure. However, that doesn't mean that he can't be taken out.

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annnnd that was when he was amped on energies he siphoned off from the Imperial Guard members.

2 things to consider

  1. This was right after vulcan had had a long fight with the imperial guards. even after siphoning them, he is still not performing at his best.
  2. Gladiator is HOLY SHIT strong (being able to two shot thing, easily beating collusus, and over powering Thor and hyperion) Here you see that he is at minimum near full confidence if not there already. And as you see a full power punch by him didnt even knock vulcan out. it took a second punch to do the trick

So yes, vulcan might have some low showing for his durability (if you can call that a low showing). But that is why i am giving him the Old Power Shield (just to reiterate, tanked a punch from juggernaut that registered an 8 on the Richter scale with little damage done to bruce)

its getting late for me, so i will get back to this in a later post. so for now:

Conclusion:

  • TP is useless on my team via Omega level resistance for vulcan and Worldmind for Rider
  • My prep is valid. I get my thousands of ultron clones (and my iron man suits)

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#27 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: just finally finished editing my opening strategy info. will reply to your post that you put after that next. How's it looking so far?

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#29 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 looking pretty good so far, actually. this is shaping up to be some fun.

alright, time for some counter:

Firestorm

All things considered, firestorm should be pretty easy to take out. Yes, transmutation will be highly annoying. But really, the iron man suits and ultron clones are there for distraction purposes anyway, so that will be a good way to draw his attention away from my team

But lets take a look at how he was killed:

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He was killed by a person with human levels of speed/strength. A simple puncture is literally a one-shot to this guy. He really has nothing special in the way of durability. So, in the mass of ultron clones, iron men, and the rest of my team, yeah, one of them is going to stab him, then BAM! You are already down a team member.

Stargirl

Oh, this is good. Her belt and star-rod are made out of technology? Guess who can hack them... :D my good friend Ultron

and i know what you might be thinking "it doesnt have a computer in it" or "it is special because of its magical properties"

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Here we have ultron using his technopathy on a tractor. No computers in there to hack

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and here we have him taking over the entire phalanx race (who are sentient and could try to resist, not that it would work). So ultron should be able to take over her tech and severely weaken her by taking it away. Another member taken down (or at minimum, VERY weakened)

Power girl

Unfortunately, you drew the short stick in terms of where the fighting takes place. Bottled kandor has a red sun, so power girl will be weakened right off the bat.

i cant find the video, but in the 2013 Superman Unbound movie, upon being exposed to red solar rays for only a few seconds, Superman lost his ability to fly. Upon a few more minutes of exposure, the mere act of punching the ground caused his hand to bleed. Imagine power girls' prolonged exposure to those rays. She would be taken out fairly quickly. In any other location, she might have been good, but really, she is going to loose her powers quickly.

Also, while we are talking about her, Powergirl isnt known for her telepathic immunity. In fact, according to her source on DC wiki, she is actually very vulnerable to mental assaults. This proves 2 things:

  • hinders your argument on how good maxima's telepathy is (but we will get to that later) because using her power on power girl doesnt really show anything special
  • Ultron can use his psychic attacks to take control of her if needed (psycic might not be the right word, so let me explain that) He can use his Encephalo-beam (more on that later) to hypnotize people. Example:
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so, he can hypnotize her to join my team

and lastly, Vulcan can use magic to take her out. To prove that he can use magic:

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He says that magic is a form of energy. And because he can manipulate all forms of energy...

Maxima

While yes, she is strong, and yes her TP is good, here are my counters

  • strength/speed: Nothing my team hasnt dealt with before. Again, ultron tanks his from thor with 0 damage dealt, nova tangles with surfer (and you can tell that they were on the same level because not only did that fight end in a stalemate, but again, he took heavy hits from him and dealt good damage back:
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TP: Really, the only impressive instance i saw there was when she used it against superman and orion. Other then that, not so much.

  • As i said, powergirl has no special immunity to it
  • captain atom isnt known for his immunity (though he has it)
  • she used it on a normal human in the wonder woman scan,
  • and when she used it against braniac, he was weakened because he was cut off from his ship and lost a lot of power from that.

I dont see vulcan being affected. He wasnt affected by rachel summers (again, omega level and daughter of the phoenix) who has a nearly limitless radius when it comes to telepathy. So i think he can hold his own against her

And even if rider was somehow taken out (cant really find scans of his TP resistance), the worldmind can control his body while he is unconscious, so he would still be in the fight (and im farily certain her tp wouldnt work on the worldmind because it is technically a computer)

Lastly, in regards to vulcan's durability, dont forget that he has the old power shield (which tanked hits from juggernaut that registered an 8.0 on the Richter scale) which ultron stole from banner during prep.So that is something to keep in mind while we debate.

again, im up late doing this, so i will touch on the rest of your team later.

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#30 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: very nice. Let's really get into this now shall we?

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Rebuttal and Counter Town!!!!

first off let me discuss specific points that you raised and then will do some general stuff like more detailed info, strategies, points of consideration, etc......

In regards to Firestorm:

All things considered, firestorm should be pretty easy to take out. Yes, transmutation will be highly annoying. But really, the iron man suits and ultron clones are there for distraction purposes anyway, so that will be a good way to draw his attention away from my team

If Firestorm would be easy to be taken out, it wouldn't be by anybody here except Vulcan, that is why he is steering clear and targeting Ultron. Transmutation will be more than highly annoying especially as this is not just typical "Firestorm" here...Ronnie. I am using a composite being with pre and nu-52 feats here. let me give you some quick info for wiki on the difference between Ronnie and Jason respectively:

Ronnie Raymond

Ronnie Raymond
Ronnie Raymond
  • Firestorm has the ability to rearrange the atomic and subatomic structure of inorganic matter, rearranging subatomic particles to create objects of different atomic characteristics of equal mass. He can not only change and transmute the atomic composition of an object (e.g., transmuting lead into gold of equal mass) but he can also change its shape. He cannot, however, affect organic matter without painful, even lethal, feedback. This organic limitation does not extend to his person as he can change himself at will, allowing him to regenerate lost and damaged tissue, boost his immune system, shapeshift, and survive indefinitely without food, water and air. Much like a Green Lantern's limitations, Firestorm can only create items the "driver" of the Firestorm matrix is able to understand the workings of. Unlike a Green Lantern's creations, Firestorm's alterations are permanent unless he reverses them. Following Raymond's resurrection during Brightest Day, Firestorm gained the ability to switch "drivers" between Ronnie and Jason at will. Firestorm has also demonstrated the ability to fly at fantastic (but unmeasured) speeds, to render himself intangible and thereby pass through solid objects harmlessly, to generate destructive and concussive blasts of fusion energy from his hands, to absorb radiation harmlessly, and superhuman levels of strength and resistance to injury.

Jason Rusch

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  • Possesses the ability to transmute both organic and inorganic matter with ease. This ability is limited by his will, imagination, and scientific knowledge. It is not limited by weight or volume. He can also transmute organic and inorganic matter just by looking at it.

  • Can shoot concussive force, heated or charged particles, and powerful 'fusion blasts.'

  • Possesses quark vision, allowing him atomic interactions and the structure of molecules.

  • Can see the ultraviolet spectrum.

  • Can see and detect thermal signatures.

  • Possesses microscopic and telescopic vision.

  • Superhuman speed in flight. He can fly up to speeds of 600 mph.

  • Possesses ability to alter superhuman strength levels. It is theorized that he is able to lift in excess of 100 tons, but am not sure on specific references on that..

  • Possesses superhuman durability with the ability to alter his density levels from immaterial (objects pass through him) to super dense (objects bounce off, etc...).

  • Possesses superhuman reflexes and reaction time.

  • Can easily regenerate injuries many times faster than normal human beings.

  • Possesses elemental reconstruction.

  • Can self-sustain himself for extended periods of time with food or water. He can survive in space without equipment.

  • Can become intangible and phase through solid objects and energy without any harm. This ability is a more stable version of Ronnie's.

  • Can playback memories of the Firestorm Matrix.

  • Possesses the ability of limited time sight, allowing him to see the Matrix's past or future while dreaming.

  • Has a psychic connection with the Elemental Firestorm.

  • Was able to communicate with Gehenna through a telepathic link before her death.

So I am not bound by simply Ronnie's restrictions here, I basically have two characters in one, and that's not even getting into nu-52's ability to fuse together into a more powerful being called The Fury and it's a substantial upgrade. What is Firestorm amps up on ya?

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and as far as being "distracted by the "fodder = Ultron clones".............Firestorm doesn't even have to be looking at something necessarily to transmute it, just aware of it's spatial presence.

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and as in the scan states, he can do this all very quickly without even much effort. So I don't see this army of Ultron clones being any trouble whatsoever between Firestorm's Transmutations (proven effective for 2 reasons. 1) proof that Firestorm can transmute anything, large areas, even the air itself into whatever he wishes 2) proven that Adamantium can be transmuted or broken by Molecule Man, Proteus, and Thanos with the IG....all powerful reality warpers yes, but as in the case with Molecule Man especially.....it's all really transmutation on some level right? reality warping, matter manipulation = transmutation in a certain degree. Add the combination of Star Girl's abilities.........Prep Army Ultron Cloes Go bye bye.................

But lets take a look at how he was killed

Ok, I'm actually glad that you brought that up.

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He was killed by a person with human levels of speed/strength. A simple puncture is literally a one-shot to this guy. He really has nothing special in the way of durability

Let me address this in multiple points:

  1. The person he was killed by was Shadow Thief. He was definately above "human levels speed/strength". and especially speed...he moves past bullet dodging speed
  2. there is nothing simple about that "puncture wound"....it was from the sword weilded by Shining Knight. His mystical/enchanted sword. So it works on different properties as well, considering Firestorm has substantial phasing abilities/density control).
  3. He has fair durability showings, will show below in scans. especially phasing and being able to be durable enough to withstand punishment from Kalibak (whom damages the likes physically of Superman and Orion) and Captain Atom respectively.

1) Shadow Thief speed and abilities:

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(click on links to see wiki). and here really illustrates his speed capabilities. Clip from JL animated, I know canon concerns? however it really is an accurate depiction of the point I'm trying to make here" Shadow Thief is above "normal human"speed/reaction time

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2) and now in regards to Shining Knight and his sword:

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scans show:

  • mystical/enchanted in nature and not the average weapon, in fact a power item/artifact
  • easily renders steel/metal of significant speed and weight

which all build into last point...

3) Firestorm durability.

Ok, so the fact that the sword "one shotted him" as it is referred to is a substantial, unique, and significant thing. Because as you stated " He really has nothing special in the way of durability". This really isn't that accurate. Firestorm generally will phase through attacks by lowering his molecular density in similar fashion to Martian Manhunter and the Vision to evade attacks, or he has high damage soak that is fairly respectable. let me show some examples of each:

Phasing through attacks:

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scans:

  1. density lowered - avoiding gasses, pass right through him
  2. phasing weapon through body
  3. phasing another object so it is immaterial and passes through a crowd of people

so in a normal attack Firestorm could either phase himself through it, or phase the object itselflf so it is of no harm

Damage soak/durability:

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scans:

  1. 1) takes an elbow from Black Adam (high striking power) in WW3 (bloodlusted)
  2. 2) - 6) a showing against Kalibak, whom is high tier (low herald level at best) whom normally trades blows with the likes of Orion and Superman. 3) is a punching comparison with Orion, 4) shows good durability standing up to being squeezed by a being with easily 100 ton strength and 5-6 show tanking punches as well.
  3. 7) tanks/blocks combined energy output assault from Killer Frost and Arthur Light showing resilience to varied power sets offensively
  4. 8) take punch from Captain Atom
  5. 9) - 10) vs Rocket Red attacks
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so I would say that clears up all the misconception surrounding his durability, and the nature of his death.

On a side note and additional info on his offensive transmutation capabilities:

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He easily Transmutes Machinery (which Ultron is correct?) So Ultron Army and he himself will be no issue here

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Scans:

  1. transmuted simple materials to create complex machinery ......that could be reversed as well...Ultron to base parts
  2. transmuting the heat in weapons
  3. transmuting magnets once again
  4. transmuting barricades
  5. transmuting the offensive capabilities right out of an opponents hands.

and if heat is any indication (which he can generate as well) of what's damaging to Ultron? well then..........

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In conclusion with Firestorm:

  • He has no issues transmuting, so don't see why Ultron isn't easily dispatched here as well as his clones. There really is no defense that Ultron has in any way over Firestorm's offense.
  • established durability
  • show and stated some ways to deal with Adamantium
  • established that his death was not a normal occurrence and he is not so easily "one shotted"
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Whew, that took a lot!!

I was bust at work so I had to bounce around.

Have to come back and break down each character you covered (Stargirl next, then Power Girl, Maxima, etc.....) if I'm gonna go as in depth with each one (as I plan to).

Be back later for Rebuttal #2. You may comment on the Firestorm stuff in the meantime if ya like!

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#31 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

and as in the scan states, he can do this all very quickly without even much effort. So I don't see this army of Ultron clones being any trouble whatsoever between Firestorm's Transmutations (proven effective for 2 reasons. 1) proof that Firestorm can transmute anything, large areas, even the air itself into whatever he wishes 2) proven that Adamantium can be transmuted or broken by Molecule Man, Proteus, and Thanos with the IG....all powerful reality warpers yes, but as in the case with Molecule Man especially.....it's all really transmutation on some level right? reality warping, matter manipulation = transmutation in a certain degree. Add the combination of Star Girl's abilities.........Prep Army Ultron Cloes Go bye bye.................

I really love how you equate high level reality warpers to simple molecular manipulation. Just because someone like Thanos with the infinity gauntlet (which basicly makes you a god) can do it doesnt mean that firestorm can. I fail to see how REALITY WARPING is the same as transmutation. Because it isnt. Reality warping is changing the very laws of how a universe functions. Matter manipulation is changing the structure of a substance. Those are 2 completely different things. transmutation does not equal magical warping of the universe via artifacts that bestow godly power.

This is a very flawed argument. Ulton clones will pose a threat. But they might not have to...

But lets take a look at how he was killed

Ok, I'm actually glad that you brought that up.

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He was killed by a person with human levels of speed/strength. A simple puncture is literally a one-shot to this guy. He really has nothing special in the way of durability

Let me address this in multiple points:

  1. The person he was killed by was Shadow Thief. He was definately above "human levels speed/strength". and especially speed...he moves past bullet dodging speed
  2. there is nothing simple about that "puncture wound"....it was from the sword weilded by Shining Knight. His mystical/enchanted sword. So it works on different properties as well, considering Firestorm has substantial phasing abilities/density control).
  3. He has fair durability showings, will show below in scans. especially phasing and being able to be durable enough to withstand punishment from Kalibak (whom damages the likes physically of Superman and Orion) and Captain Atom respectively.

1) Shadow Thief speed and abilities:

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(click on links to see wiki). and here really illustrates his speed capabilities. Clip from JL animated, I know canon concerns? however it really is an accurate depiction of the point I'm trying to make here" Shadow Thief is above "normal human"speed/reaction time

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You do realize that this is nothing special. The heroes from the justice league TV show are no where near as fast as in the comics. Super speed isnt this guy's main thing. Really, its nothing that my team cant do.

  • Even so, my entire team is faster then that. As i have said, Nova Prime is easily capable of Hyper sonic flight and can even go at FLT speeds if needed (cant find scans, so the link will take you to a wiki where you can see that).
  • Ultron and all of his clones can move at super human speed, and same with the iron man suits (with those being even faster)
  • And vulcan is also capable of interstelar flight up to "Sub-light or light speed"
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2) and now in regards to Shining Knight and his sword:

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scans show:

  • mystical/enchanted in nature and not the average weapon, in fact a power item/artifact
  • easily renders steel/metal of significant speed and weight

Aaaaaaaaaand what does this prove? At all? Yes its mystical, but it doesnt seem to do anything other then cut through things easier. My team possesses super strength, so that shouldnt be a problem. Does it have any properties that prevent Firestorm from phasing through it? My guess is no. Firestorm just got speedblitzed before he could do that. And if a guy with with superhuman speed could speedblitz firestorm, i see no reason why my team cant do the same thing.every scan of firestorm phasing though attacks was done against normal humans. And my entire team is faster then that. hell, i could have Nova fly in at light speed and use his helmet to stab firestorm for the exact same effect.

He easily Transmutes Machinery (which Ultron is correct?) So Ultron Army and he himself will be no issue here

yes, this is true that ultron is a machine, but (and again, this is assuming that we dont just speedblitz him and make him go boom) Ultron has shown resistance to matter manipulation:

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Pym particles have 0 effect on him. And that is a form of matter manipulation.

Even if you were to blow up his clones or dismantle them:

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Here we have ultron using destroyed parts of his ultron clones to attack the avengers (and doing a good job at it too). Even a single hand is being controlled.

Now, lets say that worse comes to worse and you manage to kill ultron. Well kandor is a technologically advanced city with machinery and computers in it. He can upload his consciousness into the computers to continue his assault if needed.

And lets not forget that ultron has taken control of star girl's staff, so he can start draining fire storm to weaken him and distract him from transmuting the army (again, assuming that he isnt taken down instantly via speedblitz, which he will)

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#32 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: dannnnnnnnnnng man, i've been busy, I will get back to this ASAP. the crappy thing is I've got tons to say, discuss, counter, etc.......just not enough time to devote to sitting down and building post. workin on it............

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#33 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: alrighty man, I haven't forgotten about this and very much plan to finish this.

next off:

In regards to Stargirl:

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Oh, this is good. Her belt and star-rod are made out of technology? Guess who can hack them... :D my good friend Ultron

and i know what you might be thinking "it doesnt have a computer in it" or "it is special because of its magical properties

In all appearances I can find, and extras have done research on....................i cannot find an example of something like this in two points:

  1. No instances of Star Rod tech being "hacked" or "bein compromised" in all incarnations (Ted, Sylvester, Jack, Courtney), by wide variety of more than capable opponents.
  2. Not a tactic that Ultron uses on a consistent basis. Say for example that Ultron faces Spidey. Does he employ this tactic on Peter's web shooters?

And as I have covered previously, Courtney's equipment is not average "tech"......I'm really not too worried about it.

Here we have ultron using his technopathy on a tractor. No computers in there to hack

Really the issue here is.............I don;t see Ultron being able to affect the Star Rod or converter belt, no matter what. They have moved beyond that.

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two things notable about this instance. 1) that the belt's energies were able to overcome the "possesion" of Obsidian when Hourman could not and 2.) it acted independent of her control, instinctively. That shows a measure if defense in itself from being compromised.

and another very relevant point of contention:

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the rod is attuned to her, thus forth under her control and willpower. And if having enough willpower is in contention................Alan Scott leaned on her for willpower assistance in Virtue and Vice to teleport out of Limbo. Seeing as how she is connected, I don't see the equipment being compromised.

So ultron should be able to take over her tech and severely weaken her by taking it away. Another member taken down (or at minimum, VERY weakened)

nope.

well that was short and sweet. Ok then, I will come back tomorrow AM and do Power Girl and Maxima. Gotta do Arthur too. Dang. Still so much to do

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#34 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

  1. Not a tactic that Ultron uses on a consistent basis. Say for example that Ultron faces Spidey. Does he employ this tactic on Peter's web shooters?

He uses his technopathy on a regular basis. he doesnt need to hack peter's web shooters because he vastly outclasses him. But his technopathy is one of his main abilities, so he has no reason to use it here

And as I have covered previously, Courtney's equipment is not average "tech"......I'm really not too worried about it.

Neither was the ENTIRE phalanx race, but let me get back to that

the rod is attuned to her, thus forth under her control and willpower. And if having enough willpower is in contention................Alan Scott leaned on her for willpower assistance in Virtue and Vice to teleport out of Limbo. Seeing as how she is connected, I don't see the equipment being compromised.

Ultron has been able to over take over technology with other people's conciousness. Case in point: Extremis Iron Man:

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Seeing as how he took that over and that had the power to resist (via tony's sentient mind), i dont see why he cant take over this rod via his own force of will.

Also, to further prove my point, let me remind you that ultron has taken over an entire race with his technopathy. All of whom were sentient enough to try and resist, but ultron over powered all of them:

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So, with all of this power, i believe (especially with the huge boost to his power he got when he was Phalanx ultron, which i will touch on later) that he should be able to over take the the star rod and belt

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#35 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: ok, I am still postings behind, doing my best to catch up. Won't be able to reply back to new comments on Firestorm and Stargirl until I get these others out of the way, so let me keep going. We'll come back to the other stuff at some point.

In regards to Power Girl:

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here I cooooooooome Ultron!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, you drew the short stick in terms of where the fighting takes place. Bottled kandor has a red sun, so power girl will be weakened right off the bat

What I'm really wondering is @highaccuser.........what's the situation with this? Are we putting a character into a battle with OP stacked against them right off the bat? That would be like throwing a powerful character into a scene automatically depowered. Doesn't make sense. So until adjudication on that..............I'm going to operate as if there is no Red Sun weakness/inhibitations............

Now I have Steel, Stargirl, and Firestorm keeping Ultron busy (especially the combo of them all, which I have clearly covered with Firestorm and Courtney, just haven't presented Steel's contribution really yet....which I am about to do right after I say a few things about Karen) so Karen will be targeting Gabriel right off the bat.

Also, while we are talking about her, Powergirl isnt known for her telepathic immunity. In fact, according to her source on DC wiki, she is actually very vulnerable to mental assaults.

Ultron can use his psychic attacks to take control of her if needed (psychic might not be the right word, so let me explain that) He can use his Encephalo-beam (more on that later) to hypnotize people. Example

so, he can hypnotize her to join my team

First off on this, as I stated above.....Karen will not be engaging or anywhere near Ultron at this point, I'm not fully addressing this right now.

and lastly, Vulcan can use magic to take her out. To prove that he can use magic

Ok. well first things first.............the only way he would be able to do that would be to draw it out of Arthur's water hand i'm assuming correct? Because it's not like he has that ambient energy to just use at his whim. And in the instance you showed, it is Vulcan using Adam Warlock's "magic" against him

As a result of the deaths of billions of living beings during the Annihilation Wave, billions of souls contacted Adam. This emotional/metaphysical trauma nearly drove Adam completely insane. Warlock spun a cocoon in order recover from the trauma. Warlock's early awakening from his most recent cocoon has meant a loss of control of his abilities; he now appears to have seizures when over-exerting himself. His powers have also essentially changed as well. He now calls himself a "Quantum Mage" and is able to control massive amounts of mystical/metaphysical energies as opposed to cosmic energies. It was explicitly asserted that he developed these abilities to counter-act the billions of souls contacting Adam. Adam Warlock can now cast spells with a variety of effects, including traveling faster than light and detecting wormholes and other special anomalies.Nova's Worldmind recently stated that it could not quantify or calculate Adam Magus' power level, saying it was significantly higher than Nova's.

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and really even in that instance, the power/magic Vulcan had taken from him.......he was still able to easily be harmed, Adam was still fighting back and looked to me more of an even match.

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And the nature of the "Quantum Magic" seems to have made it easier for Vulcan to be able to "tap into"/manipulate as it falls directly in the field of Vulcan's powers and is directly referred to as a strange form of energy.

It has never been shown for Vulcan to tap into and/or manipulate "traditional" "magic", which is more along the lines of Arthur's Water Hand, they are two very vastly different things.

So even IF (which will cover below) Vulcan could drain off Arthur's Water hand energies...exactly how would this benefit him? When one of the properties of the hand is to negate Magic in itself? Arthur could then easily negate the energies that Vulcan had just absorbed.....

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and now lets' consider what Arthur can bring to the table against Vulcan real quick before I get back to Karen. And then discuss the combination of the two.....

In regards to Aquaman:

What Arthur will bring to the table is a couple of things:

1) strong physical stats (strength and durability)

Vulcan has shown vulnerability to Physical offensive attacks, so Arthur here is no slouch in that category. He has high enough strength output and damage soak (blunt force, striking impact, and energy projection durability) to content with Gabriel, and the kicker is....he won't be alone.

Strength output / striking power:

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scans: 1) - 3) impressive heavy lifting feats, especially 2. 4) vs Lobo 5) spearing and easily picking up large truck 6) with Wonder Woman vs Imperiex Probe

and one of my personal favorite showings:

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That's Starbreaker. Good feat. Kinda similar in powerset to 'ol Vulcan there..............

Durability / Damage Soak:

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scans: 1) Wonder Woman Lasso 2) vs Black Manta energy projection 3) - 5) explosion damage soak plus fall from great distance 6) - 7) explosion damage soak x2 8) punishment from high tier being 9) - 11) bulletproof exapmles

2) Low level TP to disorientate and throw off game even a little bit

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scans: general showings, nothing too special.

3) The Trident

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I mean after showing piercing Imperiex probe, don't see how there needs to be more here on the subject but here's another low showing. Needless to say, Gabriel gets skewered. and he has never shown any type of resistance to being skewered, Omega Mutant or not.

Ok then.

so in conclusion regarding Arthur..........

  • Water hand. Drained/manipulated? not too sure about that. and IF so...........is it really effective?
  • high strength/striking power
  • potent offensive weapon in trident
  • high damage soak and durability
  • low TP to add to the mix

Now back to Power Girl...........

once again it's all about the power here. I simply don't see Vulcan being able to withstand the speedblitz and striking power of Karen. add Arthur into the mix and for sure Gabriel is easily KO, due to it being established that Gladiator has done so previously to him.

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considering she has speedblitz and striking power that rivals and compensates that of Diana, Kal, and just about every other major powerhouse of the DCu, I don't see much of an issue with her clear taking Gabriel's head off.

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In fact, in two separate instances she has shown striking power high enough to cause serious pause to Despero. The significant thing about that is.....Despero shrugged off multiple hits from Kal, Batson and Diana, and then reacted to the force of Karen's punch. That is higher level than the one delivered by Gladiator to Vulcan that put him down. just sayin....

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and even IF Vulcan was magically amped by Water hand (and that's stretching it) let me show the fight against Mordru again.......

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So in conclusion:

  • don't see Vulcan pulling off win here. He simply doesn't have what it takes to put down either of these two, where they in turn have plenyt to put 'ol Gabriel down for the count.
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#37 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero:

and moving along...............

In regards to Maxima:

Maxima VS the human rocket....Nova Prime!!!!

While yes, she is strong, and yes her TP is good, here are my counters

alrighty then.

now this will be interesting and more even than most think. The only thing Rich has is more showings than Maxima does. However Maxima's feats are more than enough to contend with the Nova's. Lets break it down....

Speed

Nova is fast, don't get me wrong. However to get at his top speeds he has to open stargates to travel at FTL speeds

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and his in combat reactionary speeds aren't really that impressive...

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Maxima has speed feats showing on par/comparable to Kryptonian levels, and in combat reactionary times to tag Doomsday

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Strength

No contest here. Maxima is leagues above Rich in the strength department. She is once again on par with Kal and Kryptonians in this department, and Rider has never shown that type of level, even with Worldmind/Gravemtric striking power enhancement (which is what he used against Surfer BTW, and o matter what you say....that was no tan impressive showing for Rich. We can talk about that later however in full breakdown detail.

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durability/damage soak

Rich has some fair durability, however think Maxima's may be a bit higher.

TK vs. Gravemetrics

Gravemetrics is largely how Rich utilizes his energy output (from shields, striking force, beams, etc...)

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random gravemetric feats/examples. I like how he compares his powerset to Moonstone's in the last.

and Maxima has high TK output that is used similarly, even with transmutation/molecular re-arrangement properties as well

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some fair feats. especially using TK to BFR across planet levels. And holding Enchantress in stasis is impressive as well due to her mystical nature.

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exhibiting matter rearrangement/molecular manipulation

once again.......................Rider is goin down in this encounter. Id he can't contend with breaking the grip of K'lrt..how is he going to content with Maxima?

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bye bye Rich.............

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#38 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1

i see the fights that you proposed happening going differently. Lets take a look, shall we?

Nova Prime vs Firestorm

At first glance, the flying guy with the flaming head seems the most dangerous. So it is likely that Nova will target him first. As we both have shown, he was killed fairly easily by the shadow thief, a hero with peak human speed at best, by an easy head on attack. Nova (who again, both of us have shown to be able to move at hyper sonic and sub light speeds fairly easily) can do basically the same thing with a good ol' speed blitz punch to the gut.

Seeing as how a sword was able to penetrate through firestorm, a sub lightspeed punch should be able to do the same. After being punctured, Ronnie is going to go boom. 1 guy down. 5 to go.

Vulcan (and kinda ultron) vs Stargirl

Vulcan isnt stupid. he isnt going to charge head first into the guy covered in steel or the motherfucker with a trident (by the way, that thing is really cool :D). No, he is going to go after the girl throwing energy at the ultron clones (more on those further down the post). He is going to try and absorb her energy blasts and will very likely over power her (seeing as he is the superior energy manipulator). He will be able to tank her attacks due to his Old Power Shield and will be able to take her down with his own energy blasts.

Well, that is assuming that ultron doesnt just take over her gear and renders her helpless as i have shown he is able to do against machinery that has its own consciousness like:

  • The entire phalanx race
  • extremis iron man (with tony's consciousness.)

Powergirl vs....

You know, im going to get back to this depending on what the response of @highaccuser in regards to the red sun thing.

Maxima and Citizen Steel vs Ultron

She is strong. She is fast. She has telepathy. She is nothing that ultron hasnt fought before.

Ultron is used to fighting very powerful beings. He goes toe to toe with thor regularly. And he always gives thor a smackdown.

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He completely owns all of the avengers with little effort, and basically one shots thor.

Literally one shots Vision
Literally one shots Vision

Oh, and the important thing to note about vision is that he can make his body harder than diamonds. And he is still taken out by Ultron's Encephalo Ray.

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Check out what ultron does to an entire team of avengers (including Vision, Iron man, and scarlet witch)

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Yet again, Ultron wipes the floor with the avengers (with thor and wonderman included)

Ok, enough with the avengers. lets take a look at some more substancial heroes (god, when thor is becoming too easy to handle...)

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Here we have Ultron (not even in his adamantium body) beating the shit out of The Sentry. Not only that, but he casually tanks his hits with no damage at all to himself.

Now, lets move on to Ultron in his Phalax form:

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1-4: Ultron manages to take out adam warlock with (lets say it all together...) little effort

5: Ultron one-shots moondragon (who can move at light speeds and has stalemated dr strange)

Now, you have shown that Maxima and steel are very strong and can fight people like doomsday and all that good stuff. But they wont be able to hurt ultron. At all.

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Casually tanks the qunjet being plowed into him (and the qunjet is the one getting destroyed). Hell, it doesnt even move him in the slightest.

Full on, electrically charged strike from thor does no damage
Full on, electrically charged strike from thor does no damage

And yes, there is that whole "If you hit ultron hard enough you can shake up his insides" thing. Only that doesnt work any more because his he has an internal force field to protect his insides from that:

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Nova Prime Vs Aquaman

Well, nothing you showed suggest that Aquaman can tangle with the likes of Nova Prime. Yeah he is strong enough to lift a truck. Yeah he tanked explosions. Yeah, he is bullet proof. But he is nothing compared to nova prime.

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Oh look, its are good old friend Thor. 1 punch was all it took to do serious damage to him to the point where thor was highly disoriented.

before i start repeating my self, aquaman really doesnt have anything special in the way of speed feats. Nova does (hell, you even showed some better feats than i could find with my limited library of comics).

Plus with the added ability of flight, that will allow nova to move around at high speeds blasting the shit out of aquaman (or pin him down with gravametric beams) and wail away on him. Considering Nova Lobotomized Ego the living planet, i think his energy output is enough to deal with aquaman.

Now, to show some more of what nova can do:

In the Comic, Annihilation: (i will see if i can find scans of this later, but check the link so you know im not making this up)

  • Annihilus and thanos capture Galactus
  • Galactus manages to break free (with a lot of help) and shoots out a blast that destroyed 3 solar systems (which nova tanked from near point blank range)
  • Annihilus survived that...and look what nova did to him:
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and for Aquaman's low level telepathy....yeah, that really isnt going to do much against Nova, especially with the world mind helping him out.

now, there was something i was forgeting...what was it? Oh right:

Your team vs Several thousand Ultron Drones and Ironman suits

As i have shown, firestorm will die before he gets a chance to transmute any of these, but even if he can get rid of a few, that is no big loss and the rest will swarm your team and beat the shit out of them (or at least be a MAJOR distraction.)

Look at what it took to take down 1 ultron drone:

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it took all of thor's strength in 1 blast to kill an ultron drone. And this thing (as i showed in an earlier post) beat the shit out of the avengers

Now, there are other types of ultron drones (made out of harden titanium) which we have shown give the avengers trouble, but in not really going to get into that. im not really going to go into what the iron man suits can do (at least not now), but considering some of them can turn invisible, move at hypersonic speeds and have a variety of weapons (ranging from missiles to lasers)

So, consider this. While maxima is going up against ultron, which i have already shown to be a hard fight for her, its going to be made even harder when you have literally hundreds of drones blasting her, punching her, piling on top of her, ect.

While nova is raining down destruction on aquaman, you have 50+ iron man suits also raining down a barrage of missiles and laser blasts

While vulcan is fighting stargirl, she is going to also have to deal with another 200 ultron drones....you get the point

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#39 Edited by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

tag me when is time for votes

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#41 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: ok man. This has been great, but considering couple things, I suggest we wrap this up.

here's why:

  1. This has been going on for over a month, and I am accumulating other matches........need to finish some off.
  2. I feel we may go round and round soon with our points. I really have stated about 80% of all I wish to present.

So with that being said.............I say we each post a Final argument and closing post. I've already spoken to @highaccuser about this, and he gave the green light so to speak.

If you have time, by all means go ahead and do yours. I will get to mine ASAP, probably some time before the weekend is over.

It's been real man.........good job! pleasure debating with ya!

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#42 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 sounds good to me. it has really been fun. i actually learned a lot about all of these characters and they seem pretty cool. Probably one of the best debates i have had because you were so knowledgeable about both teams.

Best of luck in voting.

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#43 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

is this in voting yet?

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#45 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightofzero: alrighty then. let's wrap this up.

Final Rebuttals and Closing Argument

One of the more difficult things about this debate is our vastly different views on the individual character matchups. It makes it challenging for me to properly reply to your points, as I see the battle going very differently.

as i have presented it, I see the battle as this:

  1. Firestorm and Stargirl take out reinforcement "fodder"
  2. Nova Prime VS. Maxima
  3. Power Girl and Aquaman VS. Vulcan
  4. Citizen Steel, Stargirl, and Firestorm VS. Ultron

and you see it as this:

  1. Nova Prime vs Firestorm
  2. Vulcan (and kinda ultron) vs Stargirl

  3. Powergirl vs....

  4. Maxima and Citizen Steel vs Ultron

  5. Nova Prime Vs Aquaman

  6. Your team vs Several thousand Ultron Drones and Ironman suits

Issues with it all:

  1. Characters are in character.
  2. Team work is a factor, but your team will not attack itself

the reason I state this is because I feel my attack plan is more sound specifically because of how characters would act in battle, and the experience that they all have acting as a solid team. They understand "divide and conquer" tactics. Whereas your members are a strange conglomeration of individuals that have not acted as a unit together previously. I feel that taking that into consideration, my proposed strategy and matchups are much more sound and reasonable.

let me move onto a few large "debunks" before I keep going.

"Debunk" #1.)

In regards to Firestorm:

As we both have shown, he was killed fairly easily by the shadow thief, a hero with peak human speed at best, by an easy head on attack

  • there was nothing "easy" about his death. He was impaled by a magically empowered weapon (as nothing "regular" has had the power to do so previously)(and proven Justin's weapon is mystic in nature)
  • Shadow Thief is above "peak human" speeds.
  • The attack was not quite "head on". yes, Firestorm was traveling at him directly, however..........it was towards Shadow Thief's back, and he turned at the last second while Firestorm had his guard down. Fact.

"Debunk" #2.)

In regards to StarGirl:

Well, that is assuming that ultron doesnt just take over her gear and renders her helpless as i have shown he is able to do against machinery that has its own consciousness like:

  • there has been only 1 instance that I can find of Star Rod being compromised or "taken over" and that was against the potent magiks of Mordru. That's it. Don't see that happening here. regardless of Ultron's feats, I just don't see it. And belived I showed enough previously, no need to repeat.

"Debunk" #3.)

In regards to downplaying Arthur:

Well, nothing you showed suggest that Aquaman can tangle with the likes of Nova Prime

well, I have him facing Vulcan. And anyway....it seems that you have no respect for Aquaman's abilities.

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He has strength high enough to give Superman pause and the trident he wields is potent enough to pierce and destroy an Imperiex Probe. End of discussion.

In Conclusion:

  1. Proven effectiveness of Firestorms transmutation abilities (ultron fodder, Ultron himself). Proven that Adamantium can be manipulated (albeit not easily I suppose......however Firestorm was able to create complete unknown compositions such as Kryptonite without any knowledge)
  2. Nova Prime Vs. Maxima = shown Maxima has the ability to compete (on multiple levels such as speed, durability, and strength) with Kryptonian levels. Nova has struggled with less than that.
  3. Karen and Arthur have more than enough capabilities to take out Gabriel Summers.
  4. Ultron gets triple teamed by Nate, Courtney and Firestorm. Too much versatility there.

all in all, fantastic debate. I should have put more work into this closer, but very pressed for time. Ready to go to voting after you have your final say man.

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@highaccuser

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#46 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

is this in voting yet?

i just posted my closing argument. what you think of this so far mate?

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#47 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser@cosmicallyaware1 sorry, i have one more post to get in. it will be up by tomorrow afternoon at the latest, but i will try to have it up tonight.

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#50 Edited by KnightOfZero (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: alright, final post, i will try to keep this brief:

@cosmicallyaware1

How i see the fight going:

At first this will be a 3v6. But it will go down to a 3 v 5 and ten a 3 v 4 very quickly.

  • there was nothing "easy" about his death. He was impaled by a magically empowered weapon (as nothing "regular" has had the power to do so previously)(and proven Justin's weapon is mystic in nature)
  • Shadow Thief is above "peak human" speeds.
  • The attack was not quite "head on". yes, Firestorm was traveling at him directly, however..........it was towards Shadow Thief'sback, and he turned at the last second while Firestorm had his guard down. Fact.

Counter

First, how is this magic sword different in any way? Does it have any properties that say it can cancel out firestorm's intangibility? No. all it can do is cut through things easier (which most weapons can do) and looks like it has lightning powers.

Big deal. Its nothing my team cant do. Firestorm got stabbed by a sword. Hell, it probably could have been a metal pipe and it still would have worked in literally one shotting him.

Also (as i have shown) my team is WAAAAAAY faster than shadow thief (who really isnt all that fast when compared to many other heroes, especially my team who can move at near light speeds).

One punch is all it takes. either vulcan or nova will hit him and punch a hole through his chest. and then he is not a problem

Vulcan

I have looked over some of my stuff, and it seems like i should post more scans of vulcan being awesome to prove a point here

Speed

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Vulcan is fast enough to leave the stratosphere in seconds (he is easily above hypersonic speeds)

Strength

Easily destroyed a highly advanced starship just by flying though it
Easily destroyed a highly advanced starship just by flying though it

Energy Manipulation:

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A younger version of Vulcan can effortlessly manipulate cyclops's blasts as well as multiple danger room drones at the same time

can produce enough energy to be seen from space
can produce enough energy to be seen from space

He also has some other ways he can use his energy:

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1: makes an energy construct to choke professor x (while resisting his TP)

2-3: Mind rapes Rachel summers (omega level telepathic mutant) again while resisting tp

4: makes kitty pryde see a vision of a dead colossus

5: Mind rapes multiple members of the x-men into seeing their worst fears

6: Makes nightcrawler see a mob of people hunting him

and he does all of this by manipulating the energy in their brain.

So, with that out of the way, lets get to my final thoughts on the fight:

Vulcan Vs Stargirl

Really, she isnt all that impressive. Vulcan's energy manipulation far outclasses hers. Plus he has the strength to keep up with her, the ability to completely nullify her energy attacks, is much faster than her, and can even fuck with her mind as i have shown vulcan is able to do to even omega level mutants. And the ultron drones arent going to make things easier.

She goes down fairly quickly. And he will move on to helping out nova

Nova and Vulcan Vs Aquaman and Power Girl:

Well, considering that everyone but aquaman can fly, this is actually going to be more of a 2v1 while aquaman is on the ground dealing with the hundreds of ultron drones beating him to shit (considering one can beat thor and the avengers to shit, i dont see why this wont happen here, considering that thor also has a magically enhanced melee weapon).

Now, considering that powergirl is vulnerable to Psychic attacks, we can start off with a mind rape by vulcan followed by several illusions. She wont be able to tell the illusion from reality. if she tries to use her heat vision, well, vulcan can get rid of that via energy manipulation

And even if she gets a hit on them, Nova has taken full on hits from thor while vulcan has the Power Shield, so they can survive that.

Oh, and the ultron drones and ironman suits will be doing a number on her as well

As for aquaman, when we return, the dynamic duo can just blast the shit out of him with their insane energy output. He may have survived explosions, but i dont think he could survive this:

Just a reminder, that LOBOTOMIZED Ego the living PLANET
Just a reminder, that LOBOTOMIZED Ego the living PLANET

and his one off superman punch wont do well against people flying around in the air.

Ultron (and drones) vs Maxima and Citizen Steel:

Not much more i can say on this. You havent shown that maxima can do anything to harm ultron in the slightest, while he can KO thor and the avengers on a daily basis.

hell, he one shotted vision (who' body was stronger than diamonds at the time) and was able to take out quicksilver with one hand, so any form of speedblitz wont work.

And Maxima wont be on her A game when (again, hate to harp on this but the point needs to be made) you got your secondary adamantium clones running around.

at best, these 2 will be around long enough to do a 2 v 3 (+1000 for the robots) against my team, but by that point it really they are so beat to shit at this point. Vulcan can absorb Maxima's psybolts and can aid in the help ultron and nova put her down

Nova can keep both of them pinned to the ground with his gravity beams (as you have shown), allowing ultron to wail away on them.

Conclusion

  • Firestorm dies because you have shown nothing that says the sword was special in anyway other then it can cut things easier and was being wielded by a guy infinatly slower than my sub-light speed team
  • Vulcan beats Stargirl via Mind rape and superior energy projection/absorbtion
  • Nova and vulcan beat Powergirl via mind rape (because she has no vulnerabilities to that) and being able to tank her hits while dealing heavy damage of their own
  • They then move on to aqua man (who is busy with the ultron drones) and beat him with their large energy output (Lobotomizing a planet>>>>>submarine exploding). Also, they can fly, so he cant touch them
  • Ultron is imune to all damage Maxima and steel can dish out due to being made of adamantium. He can put them down because of his ability to oneshot strong members of the avengers and generally toss the avengers around on a daily basis
  • All 3 of my team show up to win via pinning your team to the ground and blasting them with their insane energy output
  • All of this is being done while thousands of Ultron drones (hundreds of which are made out of secondary adamantium and nearly beat the entire avengers team 1v6) and iron man suits are destroying your team


Whew. finally done.

May the best man win