@artoriasabysswalker: Very long post ahead but this is for everyone.
Hiei wins mostly because people misrepresent what's important in a fight mostly thinking destructive capacity is even close to interchangeable with attack potency. They see the moon slicing feat and think it's moon level attack potency. This is entirely wrong and i'll give examples of this thinking.
Person A: Attacks tree with an axe and destroys it in one blow. This is tree level attack potency and tree level destructive capacity shown.
Person B: Attacks tree with a lazer beam and moves it the length of a forest but the lazer is only capable of destroying tree level durable matter and below.. any higher and it'd be stopped. This attack would STILL be tree level attack potency but now we see forest level destructive capacity. The mistake is seeing the forest get wiped out and thinking it was forest level attack potency.
Here's my statement: If you grasp the difference of attack potency and destructive capacity for feats, how AOE and surface area of matter destroyed factors in and that mass is a "multiplier" of force.. Hiei wins. So let's talk about feats.
In Naruto, they absolutely have the destructive capacity advantage but that's not what compares to durability.. attack potency is. I'll go straight into the moon feat... the attack's length was literally longer than what it was cutting making it an impressive destructive feat but NOT an impressive attack potency feat. Another example because I don't trust people to get this in one read.. if someone blows up a mountain with an attack with mountain sized AOE and compare it to someone who blows up a mountain with an attack of fist sized AOE.. which is more impressive? Obviously the fist but why? The mass difference right.. the thing that's a multiplier of force. How much more impressive? Literally divide the mass of the fist to the mountain AOE attack. A good rule of thumb is: The closer the AOE is to the damage the attack deals, the less attack potency was needed/shown within the feat. Now again.. the moon feat. The attack didn't show high attack potency because a high amount of attack potency wasn't actually needed. This doesn't mean it "can't" also have high attack potency.. it just isn't shown and assuming the attack potency matches the destructive capacity is never intelligent. Now, after this others point out joules of energy behind the attack. What has more joules of energy... 20,000 fireworks or wolverine swinging his hand with his claws out? The fireworks are FAR FAAAR above wolverine.. but which would have a superior chance at damaging differing levels of durability? Is there anything the fireworks with their combined superior energy could damage that wolverine's claws couldn't.. hell nah but its definitely true the other way around.
Let's look at sensui's full feat: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/38/Okumen.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20161015173236 You can easily see here that each of those okumen trees range from taller in height of mountains (even the smallest if moved right beside them) to massively larger than any mountains we've seen and not just in height. This is a MASSIVE difference in size to mountains. Note the arrangement of those 3 massive okumen trees too.
https://archive.is/ab6SS/5a9b85a8fbcd4f8da31f034f87e8e25102622fda.png This gives a better perspective on the sheer ridiculous size of this thing. Those okumen trees there.. are extremely teeny tiny in comparison as it would easily take the mass of at least 200+ okumen trees to fill in the mass of beheaded hill and yes the size of the okumen trees have changed from the last link. It's only one of them and expecting 100% complete artistic scaling from panel to panel is dumb however it could not be those 3 and easily the 3 in the far top left corner next to where the green and red line converge and again notice their size in comparison to beheaded hill. By the way, underneath all of them... trees. Normal trees and that's the massive scale.. it's an entire demon world forest underneath everything.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRXmvvYRs1qOL6tw60Ua6L5z965WaSqNqIXZnZj5mA0KdNZyKpI2yt_gDfJ Notice the okumen trees in the background?
https://w11.mangafreak.net/Read1_Yu_Yu_Hakusho_150 This is the picture most people like to low ball even though we have other perspectives and this one is the most faulty easiest to dismiss. There are no okumen trees around and just forest. This is a completely different angle we see and there looks to be tons of dust.. it was pulverized. How much of beheaded hill is even left? Why would you look to scale the size of something that's been destroyed. If you "are" honest you should now see that when I say he destroyed a mountain (something a fraction of the size of even the okumen trees) i'm not just low balling it... i'm lowballing it lower than anything has possibly been lowballed. It would actually make sense and would be a fair argument to make that sensui destroyed the mass of 1000+ mountains with "air pressure" and that's "not" highballing it. In fact it's what I use as the standard size as to be honest i'm very "very" confident if this anime had come out today and people saw this feat by how people look at feats with current standards this would no question be accepted as such with the very crystal clear indication of it's size.
Naruto feats have nothing really even close to this and rely entirely on AOE to cover mass destructive capacity but YYH shows feats that have far superior attack potency.
Next, speed. People like to say attacks that have "element" scales to the speed of "element" such as light and lightning when the feat shows no such thing. Using this method Hiei straight blitzes sasuke as yusuke didn't react to just one lightning attack at C class.. it was 7 lightning attacks simultaneously from different angles and actually dodged 5. He could of course only see half of Hiei's attacks.. all at C class. Sasuke supporters don't want this type of scaling even with the light fang crap and such. I actually think sasuke is faster but nothing shows he's blitzing hiei in the slightest if you stick to less assumptions. Though I think Hiei is faster after absorbing the dragon.
Ohh.. a big one next.. Databooks and unbacked claims. People LOVE their unbacked claims. If it "states" it, it's true if I "feel" it's justified. Cool, then yusuke is multiversal against sensui based on these unbacked claims. This is how I see others that do this crap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDmNj6uY0BU&t=648s He argues for multiversal yusuke using that same logic and it's dumb. So can the databooks be treated the same? Of course they can! Look, databooks have shown time and time again that they are used as "hype" books with loads of hyperbole and unbacked claims. https://66.media.tumblr.com/d163d47fb8a441fbf1bd32d5e2ee1150/tumblr_p43om3YZP91urljpmo1_1280.jpg Look at Shigure in top right. Is anyone going to tell me that his needles would catch flash? Hell his "senbon Shower" would insta kill galactus right? https://66.media.tumblr.com/0517525b78979351dac57205cd87c2e2/tumblr_p6rw12hoIu1urljpmo1_1280.jpg Liger bomb: "The strong blow that sends you to the other world".. is this hyperbole or does this one shot anyone it lands on because, "muh databook claims". There are plenty more but if you want unbacked claims to be accepted.. again that leaves yusuke at multiversal at 3rd season who Hiei is absurdely above EOS.
Alright, Genjutsu: This one is simple. People say he can definitely genjutsu Hiei and others say Hiei is straight immune to mind hax. Both are unproven. As for it working on hiei I simply ask sasuke supporters to show him successfully using genjutsu to "actually" mind screw someone over that is bare minimum "at" but really "above" his level of power WITH mind resistance on top of it as that's what he's facing. Thing is.. he hasn't.
Izanagi and Izanami: I'll just copy paste a response I had on the death battle page. Izanami not only was specified in it's use to punish Izanagi users for explicitly "accepting their fate" but saying it's a jutsu that "CAN" decide fate is ambiguous and.. doesn't even detract from forcing someone abusing Izanagi to be forced into the "decided fate" as why it's described as "deciding fate". I mean.. he's literally comparing the 2 in the same sentence of how Izanami is the jutsu that "changes" destiny. The deciding part is VERY obvious in conjunction of how it's portrayed. Saying Hiei being "forced" to repeat movements until he specifically stops wanting to kill sasuke is such a high level of speculation it's 100% dismissable. "Accepting" his fate is more than enough which again.. poses 0 problems. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/587/3 (read on from there as needed) Izanami is quite literally and hyper obviously used for the "sole" purpose of stopping others from spamming Izanagi and forcing those people to "accept their fate".. IE: when he says, "So if Kabuto stops trying to become someone other than himself.. He will be able to leave the loop." And Hiei.. will have no problem not being anything other than "himself". Furthermore, it requires that he establishes a specific "sense" mid battle, something he's never shown to be able to do as.. he's never shown he can even use the technique. That's big. I understand it would make sense he can use it however not everything works that way in fiction. There are plenty of characters in fiction that "should" be able to do something but can't. He's never even shown the willingness to "potentially" use it in any battle. So.. accepting his fate works based on how it's described, it requires he produces an "exact" copy of a sense between them (that he's never shown to be able to do), and has shown zero capability to even be able to use it at all. There won't even be all the talk no jutsu as it was vs kabuto making it much harder to simply pull off the "Sense". Lastly, in general debate forums, it's considered that both characters are "not" in character and simply do what is most effective for the kill which would vastly take away a lot of the planning or trickery from sasuke and if you want to go the both are "in" character route then sasuke even if he "could" use it (which I'm not granting entirely).. in character, he won't based on everything we've been shown.
Amaterasu: Last one and do I even need to say anything? People who think amaterasu would do anything to hiei are crazy. It's shown such vastly worse feats than the darkness dragon but also has far worse scaling and he straight absorbs the dragon.
So this is where i'll stop for now (can cover YYH aura, scaling, etc) but most of people's problems are with thinking destroying X amount of matter more than another necessitates he's X stronger in attack potency. If you follow the logic proper.. Hiei wins.
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