@rbt: It's from Shield, and Firefly (same tech used in the show, Whedon projects etc)
What does Firefly has to do with this? You said that the wave messed with someone's brains. Where did you get that from? It seemed like a concussive wave.
They used the same tech in Firefly, Whedon used it again first in Agents of SHIELD as kind of a reference, and then the tech was adapted into Hawkeye's Arrow.
So it was never mentioned in AoU? Not even hinted?
@spector_rand: Oliver has explosive arrows. Clint can't deal with one in any way shape or form. Oliver can shoot every arrow Clint has out of the sky.
I never said Oliver's trick arrows were better, just that he did have them, and Clint's defenses are no where near his. He has no reaction feats on the level of Oliver.
And are you really citing killing in Clint's favor? Oliver has a laundry list of people he's killed. Even now in S4 while he's busy yelling at Thea for killing people he's regularily, nonchalantly killing right before/after her.
But why would Oliver use an explosive Arrow on a regular dude? He doesn't just spam them like that.
Depends on what you classify a reaction feat. Hitting those Chitauri, which were flying at Iron Man speeds, is far superior to anything Ollie has done.
Yeah, killing is in Clint's favour. Ollie has a no kill policy now, he wouldn't break it against another guy not threatening a loved one.
He has actually. He uses them on fodder regularily. People just don't pay attention because they're not sexy.
That's not a reaction feat, at all. That's a marksmen feat. Hitting a moving target is not that hard. You realize there are manned AA guns that can hit planes out of the sky with no problem right? Regular soldiers can do that. While obviously Clint's marksmenship was better, you're completely misunderstand what a reaction feat is if you think that qualifies.
This is a reaction feat
Oliver didn't even pull the bow back until after the M203 was fired. And there's only about 2 or 3 truck lengths separating them. That is a reaction feat and Clint has nothing even mentioning on this level.
Again. Wrong. You haven't been paying attention. For all the yelling he does at Thea in the current season, Oliver regularly puts Arrows into the chests of enemies. Perhaps they're blunted or something and he's not actually killing them, but the shots were clearly lethal and meant to put the other guy down. To suggest Oliver hesitates to put a combatant down is silly. And its not like Clint kills people in cold blood either, he has only fought invading Aliens trying to conquer Earth and Robots. Putting down either is a huge step away from killing a human being. In fact, human life was an enormous concern for Clint in A2.
Outside out when he was mind controlled, I don't think Clint has killed a single person.
He has actually. He uses them on fodder regularily. People just don't pay attention because they're not sexy.
Can you provide feats?
That's not a reaction feat, at all. That's a marksmen feat. Hitting a moving target is not that hard. You realize there are manned AA guns that can hit planes out of the sky with no problem right? Regular soldiers can do that. While obviously Clint's marksmenship was better, you're completely misunderstand what a reaction feat is if you think that qualifies.
This is a reaction feat
Oliver didn't even pull the bow back until after the M203 was fired. And there's only about 2 or 3 truck lengths separating them. That is a reaction feat and Clint has nothing even mentioning on this level.
Ah ok I see what you're saying. The difference being Clint can track things moving faster, but Oliver has better feats in terms of actually reacting to them. Got ya, my bad.
Again. Wrong. You haven't been paying attention. For all the yelling he does at Thea in the current season, Oliver regularly puts Arrows into the chests of enemies. Perhaps they're blunted or something and he's not actually killing them, but the shots were clearly lethal and meant to put the other guy down. To suggest Oliver hesitates to put a combatant down is silly. And its not like Clint kills people in cold blood either, he has only fought invading Aliens trying to conquer Earth and Robots. Putting down either is a huge step away from killing a human being.
Yeah no, I disagree here. Oliver doesn't kill, anymore, that's one of the biggest pieces of character development he's gone through.
Clint has killed hundreds of people for SHIELD, kills Hydra fodder in AOU and was totally willing to kill a depowered Thor.
@spector_rand: Again then, you need to watch Arrow more closely. Oliver is still putting arrows into guy's chests left and right.
Like I said, maybe the Arrows are blunted or something and are none lethal, but he doesn't hesitate to put the other guy out of commission at all.
I don't have many gifs I don't think. But I know Ollie has used explosive, taser/electric, smoke, flashbang, tranquilizer, tear gas and net arrows.
Oh and a boxing glove arrow :P
I get that he shoots them into dudes, but they don't kill them bro.
All I'm saying is out of the two, Hawkeye is more likely to go for a headshot.
No doubt he has trick arrows, but he doesn't use them regularly nor are they his first line of offence against base humans (as Hawkeye would appear and in terms of physicals he is).
Ollie doesn't go against people as accurate as Hawkeye so closing the distance will not be easy. Hawkeye is way more imaginative at setting someone up than anyone ollie faces too so the standard he catches arrows defense doesn't work. Ollie has to work his butt off to get to Clint so this is a close fight either way.
If Ollie gets close enough to Hawkeye (which he is very capable of doing), Ollie wins with ease. IMO, Ollie is more accurate and is far better in H2H combat. Ollie wins 8/10.
Oliver can and has, shot projectiles out of the sky too. There's no reason he couldn't shoot Clint's arrows out of the sky before they even hit him and fire back before Clint can react.
Oliver's reflexes are well documented and super human....Clint not so much
LOL at that delusion. Clint has dodged laser fire multiple times on screen. one instance was at the beginning of the first avengers movie where he dodged loki's scepter (an infinity stone) twice. One of those occasions he had to push fury out of the way.
He later dodged an Ultron drones laser at basically point blank range here at 1:38
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Clint's reflexes are well up to tune. And id go so far as to say the laser dodging above is comparable to the arrow dodging oliver does. As most have said, he takes this at a distance. The no look shot on a speeding target yards away while causually carrying on a conversation with stark trumps ollie's arrow shots. H2h oliver takes it until we see better feats for clint (he is suppose to take on panther in civil war)
@jaller: Laser dodging is dismissed on comicvine. Real lasers travel at the speed of light, fictional lasers do not. Their speed is highly disputed and we have no way to quantify them.
I all ready address the No-look shooting. That's not skill, its sillyness. Great if you want to entertain, but pointless on a battle board.
@bflynn316: right so I guess you wanted me to go over to the other forum and give a whole synopsis on how I think the fight would go in a random encounter with standard gear and no prior knowledge to each other even tho it ask what I think for the particular scenario and with particular equipment and unspecified versions. That's the way to use the forums!! :) If that's the case then I'm gonna go to all Damian Wayne threads and make them spites and curbstomps. Do to the fact that I want to talk about and use the Damian Wayne that was revived with all kinds of powers. Or maybe I should go to all Nightwing forums and deem him the victor do to him becoming the new deadman for a while cause that's the incarnation I want to use..... Would that be fair or make sense?
If there's a character gets a new incarnation you can make a new forum, but not if they simply get new feats. Seriously what you are doing is the textbook definition of a repeat battle. Since you don't want to read the battle forum rules, I'll copy the one that applies here for you (rule #2).
No Repeat Battles/Use the Search Function
We have a search function now which can be used to search for past battles, for more information on this please see the battle forum FAQ . If you want to see who would win a fight, check if we’ve already discussed it. If we have and you have something to say about the outcome that’s been reached, don’t be afraid to bump the thread, but don’t make a new one when one already exists. Our search tool should give you everything you need, but if for some reason it doesn’t, the recap thread is another place you can look for old fights and Google can be used to search CV. Dupe threads will be locked.
Why is this still being debated? Ollie is an arrow timer, and Clint is not. It's as simple as that. When Hawkeye shoots an arrow, Green Arrow will either dodge it or shoot it out the air and then fire back. When Green Arrow fires an arrow, Hawkeye will get hit by it because he doesn't have the speed to dodge it.
Hawkeye was holding off Black Panther in H2H, and even managed to get him into a head lock. That's a very impressive feat.
proof that he was holding back ???
coz he never showed any h2h to so that
Even if Ollie is better in H2H, Clint makes up for it with his weapons and superior bowmanship.
ollie to has superior bowmanship consistent tricky arrows.
I never said anyone was holding back. Hawkeye is on Black Widow's fighting level, as he was able to fight equally with her. He also didn't get tagged by BP as much as Bucky was, and managed to get him into a head lock. BP is arguably the best H2H fighter in the MCU.
Just out of curiosity, what can Ollie do against the arrow shown in GIF 2 of post #84?
First, why are we assuming that Clint would shoot that particular arrow as a first resort? Out of all the fights he has been in, he has used that arrow once.
Second, even if Clint and Oliver decide to spam arrows the moment the fight begins, Oliver is much faster than Clint when it comes to draw speed and rapidfire. He was able to take an arrow out, nock it, aim and shoot with perfect accuracy, all before a grenade from grenade launcher could travel a couple of meters. Clint has nothing on that. As for rapidfire-
Clint is outmatched.
Third, even if we ignore everything and Clint somehow manages to shoot that arrow and connect somewhere near Ollie, there is no telling that it will knock Oliver out. The best the concussion wave of the arrow did was knock random fodders off their feet and knock them out. Oliver's durability is so far above a random human, its not even comparable. Oliver would most likely tank it.
I never said anyone was holding back. Hawkeye is on Black Widow's fighting level, as he was able to fight equally with her. He also didn't get tagged by BP as much as Bucky was, and managed to get him into a head lock. BP is arguably the best H2H fighter in the MCU.
sorry didn't read that properly anyway.
he lost to BW twice and SW saved him in CW.
BP was inconsistent since he was struggling with cap with WM help but was able to win bucky .
First, why are we assuming that Clint would shoot that particular arrow as a first resort? Out of all the fights he has been in, he has used that arrow once.
Yes, all I'm saying is that that arrow is one of his options. Even if he uses another trick arrow (such as the explosive or scatter shot arrow), Ollie should go down as well.
Second, even if Clint and Oliver decide to spam arrows the moment the fight begins, Oliver is much faster than Clint when it comes to draw speed and rapidfire. He was able to take an arrow out, nock it, aim and shoot with perfect accuracy, all before a grenade from grenade launcher could travel a couple of meters. Clint has nothing on that.
Seems pretty damn fast to me:
Clint was able to turn around in the air and nock and fire a specific kind of arrow before falling 10 ft off a high building. If that's no fast, I don't know what is.
As for rapidfire- Clint is outmatched.
This is CW Arrow, not comics.
Third, even if we ignore everything and Clint somehow manages to shoot that arrow and connect somewhere near Ollie,
He doesn't even need to connect near Ollie. That concussive arrow he shot did not connect anywhere near those guys, but its radius was huge enough to knock them all out.
there is no telling that it will knock Oliver out. The best the concussion wave of the arrow did was knock random fodders off their feet and knock them out. Oliver's durability is so far above a random human, its not even comparable. Oliver would most likely tank it.
A human's durability and body strength are irrelevant when taking into account concussive arrows, which use negative pressure to shock the opponents regardless of their physical capabilities. Oliver should fall just as easily as that fodder. He is only human, a strong one, but still human. Even if Oliver will not be immediately knocked out (which is unlikely), it will at least shock/disorientate him enough for hawkeye to shoot him again, this time with an explosive or any other more dangerous arrow.
And nearly all of Hawkeye's arrows are extremely dangerous. If he doesn't use the concussive wave arrow, he will use one of numerous explosive ones, which have a radius too big for Oliver to outrun. Yes, Oliver has survived explosions, but Hawkeye's seem to be much bigger, as seen in the helicarrier.
Nice. Now you just have to prove that Loki's energy blasts move faster than arrows and you'll have yourself an argument.
How will he dodge an instant knockout arrow?
Or an arrow with an explosion such as this:
Or a scatter/explosive arrow:
He will shoot it. How will Clint dodge a regular arrow? And no starting distance is specified here, which means we default to 10 foot. If Clint fires it at that distance it will take him out too. Regardless though, Oliver is much faster on the draw and will have fired before Clint can process what has happened. If you'd like me to I can show scans of Oliver tanking explosions.
I never said anyone was holding back. Hawkeye is on Black Widow's fighting level, as he was able to fight equally with her. He also didn't get tagged by BP as much as Bucky was, and managed to get him into a head lock. BP is arguably the best H2H fighter in the MCU.
sorry didn't read that properly anyway.
he lost to BW twice and SW saved him in CW.
BP was inconsistent since he was struggling with cap with WM help but was able to win bucky .
The first time he was mind-controlled, and he was not himself. The second time he arguably got better, as he was able to land some hits on Natasha. Yes, Natasha is probably slightly better in H2H, but it's not by a large margin, and she is damn good.
As for BP, he was able to crush Bucky in every encounter. He only sparred with Cap twice for very short periods of time, and he didn't exactly struggle with him, he landed the first clean strike. Plus, Cap would annihilate Ollie in H2H, so that argument is irrelevant.
Yes, all I'm saying is that that arrow is one of his options. Even if he uses another trick arrow (such as the explosive or scatter shot arrow), Ollie should go down as well.
Or Oliver puts an arrow in Clint before he gets a chance to even shoot an arrow. Considering Oliver is much faster as draw.
Seems pretty damn fast to me:
Clint was able to turn around in the air and nock and fire a specific kind of arrow before falling 10 ft off a high building. If that's no fast, I don't know what is.
Fast by human standards. Oliver is much faster-
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Not even comparable, tbh.
This is CW Arrow, not comics.
That was CW Arrow. From an official tie in comics. Shows his draw speed as well as rapid fire speed.
He doesn't even need to connect near Ollie. That concussive arrow he shot did not connect anywhere near those guys, but its radius was huge enough to knock them all out.
That's what I said. But like I said, knocking out fodders is not enough to imply it would KO Oliver.
A human's durability and body strength are irrelevant when taking into account concussive arrows, which use negative pressure to shock the opponents regardless of their physical capabilities. Oliver should fall just as easily as that fodder. He is only human, a strong one, but still human. Even if Oliver will not be immediately knocked out (which is unlikely), it will at least shock/disorientate him enough for hawkeye to shoot him again, this time with an explosive or any other more dangerous arrow.
Where did you get this from? It uses negative pressure to knock people out irrespective of their physical capabilites? So, it should be able to KO MCU Cap as well? Or MCU Thor? Or DCEU Clark? Considering it does not take opponents durability into account.
Plus, the only way Clint would ever fire that arrow if he and Oliver are o different altitude. Not happening here.
And nearly all of Hawkeye's arrows are extremely dangerous. If he doesn't use the concussive wave arrow, he will use one of numerous explosive ones, which have a radius too big for Oliver to outrun. Yes, Oliver has survived explosions, but Hawkeye's seem to be much bigger, as seen in the helicarrier.
So are Olivers. Why are you assuming that Clint would be shooting one arrow after another while Oliver stands with his hands in his pocket? Oliver is the faster one here. If anyone is pinning other down by spamming arrows, its Oliver. Not that needs to.
Nice. Now you just have to prove that Loki's energy blasts move faster than arrows and you'll have yourself an argument.
Too lazy to make GIFs. Check out 1:11 and 3:19. Loki's blasts reach the target in no time at all.
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He will shoot it.
The scatter/explosion arrow scatters almost immediately. Ollie will not have time to shoot it before it scatters, and when it does, he will definitely not have time to shoot every single of the pieces.
The concussive wave arrow does not have to hit the Ollie directly. Hawkeye will shoot it a distance from Ollie, and it will still knock him out. How will Ollie shoot an arrow that is flying in a random direction straight to the floor in 1/10th of a second?
Same goes with the explosiver arrow. Clint will aim it at the floor somewhere close to Ollie, and the explosion's radius will catch him.
How will Clint dodge a regular arrow?
Like he did to Loki's staff. Like he did to Iron Man's repulsors.
And no starting distance is specified here, which means we default to 10 foot.
I'm not aware of this, is the default 10 feet here at Comicvine?
If Clint fires it at that distance it will take him out too. Regardless though, Oliver is much faster on the draw and will have fired before Clint can process what has happened.
I already posted the Skyscraper falling GIF to show how fast Clint is on the draw. And if the distance is really 10 ft, it becomes a question of H2H.
If you'd like me to I can show scans of Oliver tanking explosions.
It's OK, already saw them, and none of them are as big as the Helicarrier explosion Hawkeye caused.
The first time he was mind-controlled, and he was not himself.
mmm,
The second time he arguably got better, as he was able to land some hits on Natasha. Yes, Natasha is probably slightly better in H2H, but it's not by a large margin, and she is damn good.
Or Oliver puts an arrow in Clint before he gets a chance to even shoot an arrow.
Loki's beams travel significantly faster than arrows. If Clint could dodge them, he can dodge arrows too.
Considering Oliver is much faster as draw.
Debatable.
In this video, it take Ollie 1 whole second to fire that arrow, and since you cannot see him nock it, it means that he already nocked it before the rocket was fired. So, Ollie's draw time in this instance is over a second.
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This GIF is exactly 1 second long. Hawkeye does not only have time to shoot the arrow in that time, but also nock it.
This puts Hawkeye's draw speed higher than Ollie's, considering he did more than Ollie in the second given. BTW, that Rocket Launcher was slow as ?, as it took 1 whole second to cover only half the distance.
Moreover, that arrow Clint shot in the GIF landed perfectly in the centre of the robot's face. Unlike here, Clint doesn't have to aim perfectly, since the radius of his trick arrow is large enough for it to hurt Ollie from a distance away. Ollie, on the other hand, has to hit Clint dead on, making it more difficult.
Where did you get this from? It uses negative pressure to knock people out irrespective of their physical capabilites? So, it should be able to KO MCU Cap as well? Or MCU Thor? Or DCEU Clark? Considering it does not take opponents durability into account.
Shock waves cause blast overpressure.
"Blast overpressure (BOP), also known as high energy impulse noise, is a damaging outcome of explosive detonations and firing of weapons. Exposure to BOP shock waves alone results in injury predominantly to the hollow organ systems such as auditory, respiratory, and gastrointestinal systems."
How will Oliver, no matter how durable, be able to tank high energy noise, assuming he doesn't have any protection against it? Overpressure effects internal organs, regardless of the hardness of the external. In theory, it should work on Cap, Luke Cage, Thor, and even Superman (especially Supes considering his senses), but if it is used against them, there will probably magically develop some sort of immunity to it, due to their superpowers. As for Ollie, he doesn't have a Super Soldier serum, an invulnerability serum, godly enchantments, or alien superpowers. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that he will be immune to the BOP. It's like if he was in space, he will not be able to breathe because he is stronger than average humans. Or it's like getting injected anesthesia, he will not be immune to the effects on his internal body.
Anyway, as I already mentioned, even if Ollie will not be K.O.ed by the BOP, he will be disoriented enough for Hawkeye to hit him again.
Plus, the only way Clint would ever fire that arrow if he and Oliver are o different altitude. Not happening here.
Or distance. The effects of the BOP decrease the farther away a target is. If Clint is far enough, the arrow will not effect him. However, if they really start 10 feet apart, this will be a battle of H2H, not bowmanship. I do think it makes sense for them to start farther apart, since both of these fighters are bowmen.
So are Olivers. Why are you assuming that Clint would be shooting one arrow after another while Oliver stands with his hands in his pocket? Oliver is the faster one here. If anyone is pinning other down by spamming arrows, its Oliver. Not that needs to.
As already outlined, Hawkeye is as fast if not faster than Oliver with the arrows, and he (unlike Oliver) doesn't have to aim perfectly, because of the nature of his arrows.
The first time he was mind-controlled, and he was not himself.
mmm,
The second time he arguably got better, as he was able to land some hits on Natasha. Yes, Natasha is probably slightly better in H2H, but it's not by a large margin, and she is damn good.
still he did defeat her.
ollie >> natasha.
rest of ur ABC logic is based on inconsistency.
Not ABC logic. I'm simply saying that Hawkeye has held is own against BP (the master of H2H combat) in H2H combat. This is an extremely impressive feat.
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