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#1 Posted by digitaldemon (863 posts) - - Show Bio
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Conditions:

  • This is End Game Hajun before his tumor was removed.
  • This is Goddess Madoka
  • Both have access to their standard equipment.
  • Both are In-Character.
  • Hajun and Madoka don't have knowledge of each other and do not have prep-time.
  • The fight takes place in the Third Area: Binah (Date A Live Fragment: Date A Bullet).
  • Hajun and Madoka start out 8 meters apart.
  • Win by Death, K.O, or Incapacitate.
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#2 Posted by CaoCao (1503 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

From the info that I got from @zgtfreak, Madoka is just a 5-D multiverse buster, while Hajun is way above beings, that are way above megaversal (Contains 4-D sized universes and 5-D multiverses), which is 6-D. Hajun is likely infinite more powerful than Madoka.

Transcend an infinite number of 5-D multiverses by an finite amount>>>>>>>>>>Baseline 5-D

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#4 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by CaoCao (1503 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by zgtfreak (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Hajun is out of her league. Homura should be capable of dealing with him and his verse though.

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#7 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Does out of her league mean way more powerful or way weaker?

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#8 Posted by zgtfreak (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: More powerful. He's way above her. Only Homura can kill DI characters.

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#9 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

Show nowadays even little girls are multiversal buster?

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#11 Posted by ovy7 (3061 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure Hajun stomps.

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#12 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

Show nowadays even little girls are multiversal buster?

Yeah.

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#13 Edited by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Luckenzio (15 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun is pretty higher than her if you go by dimensional tiering. I heard that Homucifer is significantly stronger than Madokami though, so maybe that could be a better match.

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#15 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@luckenzio: What tiering system do you use? Just curious.

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#16 Edited by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

dimensional tiering is flunky because it varies between fiction.

now cosmology tiering is something else. it is a philosophy that should be a forever attempt to solve the problems behind dimensional tiering verse by verse. what vsbattles does is create/ignore more problems because it is cursed by its own establishmentism to even consider that and what spacebattles does is use the problems as an excuse to determine the problems unfixable.

dies irae doesnt focus on dimensional tiering but instead focuses on vague metaphysics/philosophy stuff and painting over reality in terms of the ideas/perception that makes of it. at best, they are very very very very very and veeerryyy casual multiverse busters and can destroy a cosmic metaphysical device that contains metaphysical realms and a multiverse.

most of the wank behind it is about "my verse's rules > your verse's cosmology" arguments which is to say the least, outerversalist fallacies.

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#17 Edited by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter said:

what vsbattles does is create/ignore more problems because it is cursed by its own establishmentism and what spacebattles does is use the problems as an excuse to determine the problems unfixable.

VSbattle wiki and Spacebattles are the likely the opposite from each other. VSbattle wiki is the best NLF and wank site, while spacebattles is the biggest downplayer site.

For example, it get's implied thousand times that limbo is above than the main DC metaverse in the comic....But the monitor sphere is above limbo, so limbo is not infinite big. Spacebattles really can be absolute downplayers sometimes.

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#18 Edited by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

the taikyoku number/level system doesnt really even appear to actually increase attack potency. but rather it appears to be nothing more than an artificial-internal power system among only taikyoku users.

in my opinion, hajun with immeasurable taikyoku is no more powerful or weaker against multiversals in other fictions than a hadou god with 1 taikyoku facing against the same foreign multiversals only because it doesnt make sense that the taikyoku "multiplies" itself like qualitatively. they still use the same source of power fully.

because that system only appears to be superficially internal to them. its like how every "hero" player in rpg games are actually equally as powerful to the other by story and finishes the same boss arc but in pvp they have different stats that define them differently among an internal game system and thats what the taikyoku system really is

take it from me, as a guy who has studied chinese philosophy and anthropology as a hobby. would like to hear your opinions and correct me if i am wrong

@johnsmjs36@ovy7@zgtfreak

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#19 Posted by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter: While Hadou Gods are multiversal their power doesn't increase with taikyoku. Taikyoku is basically a number to how strong a hadou gods craving/desire is. If a Universal God has 2 taikyoku value and a multiversal one just 1 value, then while the multiversal god dwarfs in attack potency and raw power he gets screwed by the ine with 2 value. That's one of the reasons Ren went from city level to the second strongest in the verse.

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#20 Posted by VeilerAX10 (259 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure Hajun stomps.

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#21 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

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#22 Edited by digitaldemon (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnsmjs36: Actually, I'm pretty sure pre-Atziluth Ren should be mountain, he's superior to Wilhelm who I recall to be stated to be superior to Keishirou who was able to match Soujirou who diced a mountain sized Tsunami, I think?

Also, Ren isn't the second strongest in his verse: Habaki, Hajun, and maaaaybe Marie are above him.

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#23 Posted by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

inb4 vsbattles bois copy link this thread to vsbattleswiki and points to how "dumb comicvine is for making a thread like dat waaaaah"

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#24 Posted by digitaldemon (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter: They call us dumb, but they're the ones putting Devil May Cry & God of War at Universal, and Akame Ga Kill at country.

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#25 Posted by kilgpmktra (875 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by digitaldemon (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: You think that's bad? There is a wiki site called: Fictional Battle Blaze, and they have Dante (Devil May Cry) at the same level as Umineko.

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#27 Posted by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: You think that's bad? There is a wiki site called: Fictional Battle Blaze, and they have Dante (Devil May Cry) at the same level as Umineko.

no no no no no no!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loading Video...

it cant be true! you are lying!!!

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#28 Edited by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@digitaldemon: He is above Wilhelm. I meant it as an example that in the beginning he was just a superhuman then he became multiversal because of taikyoku. I have read in some wikia that Sasuke is solar level, Yhwach and Ichigo multiversal

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#29 Edited by zgtfreak (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter: Perhaps, but Hajun wins anyway due to hax. Homura could solo the verse even if we count Taikoyo, as she can absorb the power of beings infinitely above her. Madoka sadly on the other hand doesn't really have many hax.

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#30 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: You think that's bad? There is a wiki site called: Fictional Battle Blaze, and they have Dante (Devil May Cry) at the same level as Umineko.

LOL, they explain that beings are multiverseal, hyperversal or outversal without context. Just ''Guy could beat this guy'', without even proof that this guy that got beaten is multiversal, hyperversal or outversal. They can't even give proper context.

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#31 Posted by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@digitaldemon: Ren is superior. At the end of Dies Irae Ren is equal to Mercurius, Reinhard and Marie with a defense so strong he could survive Hajun at first fight. During KKK, Ren is second strongest to Hajun with a Taikyoku value of 100.

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#32 Posted by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Taikyoku doesn't just work on raw power but pure desires. And you would need atlest equal taikyoku to even think about starting a fight with them otherwise they would swallow Homura in their territory.

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#33 Edited by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnsmjs36 said:

@zgtfreak: Taikyoku doesn't just work on raw power but pure desires. And you would need atlest equal taikyoku to even think about starting a fight with them otherwise they would swallow Homura in their territory.

well thats why we run into more intellectual problems with dies irae than with umineko. really though, where do we draw the line that dies irae's taikyoku system rules would overwrite foreign reality warpers who are based on other sources of power in other fictions?

it is arbitrary that we assume that taikyoku rules trump only against other baseline multiversals but not with superior cosmology entities from elder scrolls, umineko or marvel. it is kind of weird.

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#34 Posted by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter: Well, Masada suffers from chuunibyou. Before meeting @sungsam I thought Dies Irae was the strongest verse ( I admit I suffer from chuunibyou too). Dies Irae unlike Marvel depends more on a philosophical interpretation rather than raw power. I mean this is a verse where you inner desires are superpowers. If we go by in universe lore and logic, the hadou gods don't give a crap about dimensional structure or multiverse. They just repaint all that is reality. They are the source of reality, concepts. They are somewhat like the Endless.

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#35 Edited by zgtfreak (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnsmjs36: Homura can literally absorb their power (she absorbed the power of an infinite multiversal being when she was street level), or can mind hax them (also done to the same infinite multiversal being).

But we're derailing. This is about Madoka.

@norsewinter it is arbitrary that we assume that taikyoku rules trump only against other baseline multiversals but not with superior cosmology entities from elder scrolls, umineko or marvel. it is kind of weird.

There is no reason to believe that they can overpower larger cosmologies. If it is stated that they can, or can override realities regardless of size and complexity, then perhaps, but I've never heard of such statements in DI.

When you go off pure assumption based off no statements or feats, then things can get out of hand real quickly with every verse.

Quick derail here V, then back to the subject.

As for DI Vs. Umineko: even if DI could override all of Umineko's cosmology, people like Battler can still destroy them and solo their verse regardless.

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#36 Posted by weebbicboi (1363 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun stomps

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#37 Posted by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

hajun does stomp tho

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#38 Posted by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnsmjs36: i would also like to point something out though john. you want a verse that focuses too much on dimensional tiering? its actually umineko.

marvel hardly ever focuses on dimensional tiering either as much of the abstracts there are also embodiments of concepts that are functions of a multiverse.

power difference between marvel abstracts for example are determined by metaphors, not by dimensions because all the marvel abstracts function on the same level but different authority. as seen with why protege lost to living tribunal because he was voted out by scathan. and why living tribunal got killed by chaos and order because of the lack of meaning

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#40 Edited by kilgpmktra (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter said:

@johnsmjs36:

marvel hardly ever focuses on dimensional tiering either as much of the abstracts there are also embodiments of concepts that are functions of a multiverse.

power difference between marvel abstracts for example are determined by metaphors, not by dimensions because all the marvel abstracts function on the same level but different authority. as seen with why protege lost to living tribunal because he was voted out by scathan. and why living tribunal got killed by chaos and order because of the lack of meaning

Wow. That's a really good and interesting point. So something like this?

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#41 Edited by norsewinter (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra:

yes something exactly like that. we need to see that abstracts of marvel are meant to be organs of the multiverse. they embody the different functions of the aspects of change and ideas in the marvel multiverse. they do not focus on dimensional tiering.

marvel may retcon their multiverse from being infinite universes to infinite dimensions back and forth. the fundamental framework remains the same still. because marvel believes conceptual embodying > dimensionality level in importance. the scale doesnt matter to marvel.

that is why multiverse busters in marvel randomly jump between being baseline multiversal to infinite dimensional. in my opinion, dc focuses on dimensional tiering more often than marvel does.

this doesnt mean that we ignore cosmology scale feats just on the basis of what marvel cares more about. like what some people argue.

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#42 Posted by Perfawesome (51 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun slaps.

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#43 Edited by johnsmjs36 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter: So, doesn't Shinzaverse do the same? Its hard to focus on dimensional tiering or their cosmology size when the series doesn't nearly care much about them. Beings like Lucifer cannot be measured using dimensions can he? Afterall dimensions, reality its all shaped by him and created by Michael. Cor Hadou gods many humane concepts are inferior like dimensions and what not. The throne cannot be defined by time, space, reality or dimensions. Endless pose the same problem.