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#1 Posted by Lordflawlez (1288 posts) - - Show Bio
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Who wins in an all out battle

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#2 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun might in fact... take it.

String Theory DI Multiverse remember?

You, OP, @lordflawlez. did not specify Classic LT. Because Current LT is inquantifiable in all his forms. And Marvel's Multiverse is really just Baseline Multiversal at an all time even lower than Snyder Cosmology.

So LT, in fact, loses really badly. And might be an unintentional stomp thread.

Unless you permit us to use past Marvel Infinite-D descriptions and then Classic LT, we can commence.

Then that would be a stomp in LT's favor. VIA Cosmology Tiering.

Doesn't matter though, because it's a stomp depending on how you interpret inconsistent comics.

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#3 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

It comes down on you're interpretation. The shinza bansho characters are way stronger than @sungsam and I post back than. Mercurius created infinite multiverses, which would already make him infinite above infinite baseline multiverse and 6-dimensional. He didn't only created infinite multiverses, he also recreated the cosmology from the throne from the past & future. But it was never implied how big the past & future cosmology's was. Why do I say Mercurius? Because Hajun has immeasuruble taikyokou, which would make him far greater than Mercurius who has 90. (I explaine Taikyokou 1000 times). The current marvel cosmology is, like @sungsam said, only a infinite baseline multiverse. With that, even a mid-balled Hajun is way above the Living Tribunal, because he transcends the Shinza Bansho cosmology, which was infinite greater than infinite baseline multiversal. The current marvel cosmology is just infinite baseline multiversal, while Hajun is infinite above it and immeasurable infinite multiverseS level. The highballed 10-D cosmology from Shinza bansho is just 10-dimensional (So just finite dimensions), while living tribunal in the times like secret wars had the authority above a infinite-dimensional multiverse. The 10-dimensional cosmology, which Hajun still transcends, comes not close to infinite-dimensional at all.

Hajun (Mid-balled) vs current LT: Hajun stomps

Composite LT vs Hajun: Hajun is....dead.

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#4 Posted by Lordflawlez (1288 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam:

I prefer the good old arguments via feats than the whole tiering thing

Tiering makes battles boring

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#5 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann:

You Yas, your conclusion is in fact, 100% correct.

I'll add something though.

It's in fact, a fallacy for me to imply that every String Multiverse is 10-D of Megaversal. Because for example, Demonbane is 10-D but it's Multiverse is probably just Near-Infinite to its Head Writer. I just used a highballed interpretation.

Because if we went by that logic, the Bleed Space is 10-D because it runs on String Theory, even though it's just a Baseline Multiverse (Although it is Infinite times of Infinite-D Metaversal under Composite DC) But hey.

But... eh..... LT is still skimpy jobbing. I can even argue that Hajun's lowest hax can work against him. Not even Hajun is needed, just throw a 1 Taikyoku using Gudou or Hadou God at LT, it might even be more than enough.

LT at his peak, does in fact crush Hajun. But the OP didn't specify it.

For the nature of this thread, Hajun wins. If no one likes that, just make a thread using Composite Marvel Cosmology scaled LT.

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#6 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yeah, I know that, but still thank you. I know that the shniza bansho verse isn't 10-D because it uses string theory, but like you, I use highballed interpretation.

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#7 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordflawlez said:

@sungsam:

I prefer the good old arguments via feats than the whole tiering thing

Tiering makes battles boring

Here's your problem.

  • All Multiverse Feats in fiction are inquantifiable non sense.
  • People interpret inquantifiable non sense that has not even been measured or proven in real life differently.
  • Multiverse feats depend on the construct and size and mass of said Multiverse. Hence, Cosmology Tiering is in fact, unavoidable.
  • 20 different systems have been invented in different forums to test Multiverse feats.
  • These are very subjective issues. Depend on how much logic you want to throw out the window.

These are the natures you should know, before making a Multiverse thread.

They are all boring, because there is no other way to quantify who wins.

I understand your point of view, all due respect. But, just a few noters from whom you'll know you'll eventually attract to your good thread.

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#8 Posted by Supermanthor (16502 posts) - - Show Bio

tie

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#9 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Helloman (28587 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun wins.

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#11 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by TheRemorseless (6 posts) - - Show Bio

I am, and this is probably a stomp thread, but mind explaning why Shinzaverse is 10-D?

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#13 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@theremorseless said:

I am, and this is probably a stomp thread, but mind explaning why Shinzaverse is 10-D?

Because a DI fan on VSBattles (several of them) told me that Shinza uses String Theory which is 10-D. Making them like Megaversal if we took that at face value. We wanted to call you here, to validate that claim?

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#14 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@theremorseless: Stomp in which favour? Because it comes down on you're interpretation.

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#15 Edited by TheRemorseless (6 posts) - - Show Bio

iirc There wasn't any statement about how many Ds there are in Shinza in the first place. The closest thing to that is Yakou Madara stating that the cosmology was 24-D (if you want to take it that way) , in which he was laughed at and wrecked horribly.

I'm not even sure to be honest.

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#16 Edited by TheRemorseless (6 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say that Hajun probably take this for sure If we aren't using composite LT. Composite LT is another story though, since he transcends infinite-D while Hajun transcends unknown-D.

It's extremely hard to gauge Hadou Gods' powers since there weren't that much of information in the first place. Even VSBW staff weren't so sure where to put them within their own tiering.

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#17 Posted by greenroost (780 posts) - - Show Bio

hajun slightly more powerful

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#18 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@theremorseless: You need to considere, that dimensions in every fiction works otherwise. But when it's 24-D, then the cosmology from shinza bansho is probaly big.

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#19 Edited by TheRemorseless (6 posts) - - Show Bio

It actually, once again, depends HEAVILY on how you interpret the metaphors in DI/KKK, I remember the multiverses and dimensions complexity being referred as "depth", the deeper they are, the more complex they become. then there's another statement saying that "Nothing is too deep for a Hadou God". You can take it as a statement of Shinzaverse having infinite-dimensional setting, or perhaps just some non-sense metaphor. A good example is when Shiori and Soujirou somehow managed to go through Hajun's singularity which is supposed to be a much higher level of existence.

This is the reason why it's so tedious to use Hadou Gods in VS debates, they seem to give zero flying fuq about your average scale, after all, it's a series where a WWII gun can counter an infinite multiverse busting blast.

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#20 Posted by kilgpmktra (763 posts) - - Show Bio

“Composite” LT does not transcend infinite D and I sincerely doubt Hajun can beat him

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#21 Edited by Zane240 (475 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun one shots that overrated tripple headed dude

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#22 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with "Interpret games" in Multiverse debates is that, often times, you might think you can highball a verse with a certain interpretation. Not aware the other verse, in fact, can play the same game.

DC also has a lot of messed up self-NLFing Cosmology that wanks itself if you take it seriously for example. Like every book imaginable and unimaginable by humans is contained in the Book of Limbo and the Books in Lucien's Library (that are legit Cosmologies per DKM)

Humans have limited configurations of imagination, since every Universe in DC has a Japan in it, there is a 100% chance each of those Universes has a guy that wrote a literature that is very much something like Dies Irae or Umineko in it. Then that gets contained inside the books of Lucien's library. Since those people Dream.

So Dream's Books and the Book of Infinite Pages contain stories the sizes of every Japanese fiction we know, copy-doppel ganged into DC's Multiverse. An Umineko-Copy exists inside DC.

We don't take that seriously. And I discourage anyone to use above argument. Dealt with many DC wankers who used above argumentNobody should ever use that.

That's just my example. There needs to be a regulation in interpretation.

You can literally say the same, because my Verse is wankable with a certain interpretation, it should never be used. No, it can. There just needs to be regulation.

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#23 Edited by etriel (513 posts) - - Show Bio

dies irae is not 24 dimensional. that feat only meant there were 24 dimension barriers rather than 24 higher dimensional, that are like 24 pocket dimensions than anything else.

and even then. higher dimensions are not even necessarily larger than even a normal universe. proven mathematically. because dimensions work differently in different fictions.

so unless dies irae is explicit in its higher dimensionology to be gauged. we cannot use it.

dies irae is most consistently a baseline quantum multiverse cosmology. string theory is irrelevant because a lot of verses with less than 10-d cosmology uses string theory mathematics.

because dies irae has no more references to higher dimensions behind that barrier.

levels of existence there is focused on taikyoku value which is like a metaphysical power scope if i had to simplify it. not cosmology levels.

in marvel's case, we knew each dimensions was like a higher layer megaverse.

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#24 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

DI's cosmology is less "10D" or "24D" than it is "whatever the Throne God wants it to be"

They're the source of dimensional space, and they can make the universe have as many dimensions as they want. That's why Yakou's 24D barriers got beat so hard - because he was fighting against beings who can just say they have 25D fists.

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#25 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause: That's not how it works. When there is no proper evidance for infinite dimensions or a feat for infinite dimensions, they aren't infinite-dimensional beings. Shinza Banshos composite cosmology was to contain infinite multiverses in the throne, which would just scale them to 6-dimensional by proper feats. Nothing compared to a composite Living Tribunal. But a composite hadou god with 1 taikyokou spites current Living Tribunal.

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#26 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause: High tier and composite marvel characters spites hadou gods by cosmology feats.

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#27 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause said:

DI's cosmology is less "10D" or "24D" than it is "whatever the Throne God wants it to be"

They're the source of dimensional space, and they can make the universe have as many dimensions as they want. That's why Yakou's 24D barriers got beat so hard - because he was fighting against beings who can just say they have 25D fists.

That's an Outerversalist fallacy. Which is not accepted in Multiverse debates generally on this board now. Thanks to me and my bloc, we deal with people like you all the time.

You're gonna have a bumpy ride on this forum if you're just gonna parrot VSBW frog talk.

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#28 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

LT solos the verse. Hajun has zero feats required to make him even comparable to Multi Eternity, only fake ass statements and word games.

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#29 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonystark6999: ''Hajun has zero feats'' No, that's downplay. Composite LT solos the verse with ease, but to say Hajun has no feats....lol. Hajun beated the dies irae hadou gods, which includes Mercurius, who created infinite multiverses, which would scale him to 6-dimensional. No, Hajun didn't beat hadou gods, he destroyed them like bacterias. Hajun and every hadou god with even 1 taikyokou at the composite Shinza bansho cosmology can destroy current Tribunal with ease, because the current marvel multiverse is just a infinite baseline multiverse (5-dimensional), while hadou gods with even 1 taikyokou at the composite shinza cosmology can manipulate infinite multiverses, which would already scale a hadou god with 1 taikyokou to infinite above infinite baseline multiverse (Just ONE infinite big multiverse) and 6-dimensional.

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#30 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

I l

@sungsam said:
@zerothcause said:

DI's cosmology is less "10D" or "24D" than it is "whatever the Throne God wants it to be"

They're the source of dimensional space, and they can make the universe have as many dimensions as they want. That's why Yakou's 24D barriers got beat so hard - because he was fighting against beings who can just say they have 25D fists.

That's an Outerversalist fallacy. Which is not accepted in Multiverse debates generally on this board now. Thanks to me and my bloc, we deal with people like you all the time.

You're gonna have a bumpy ride on this forum if you're just gonna parrot VSBW frog talk.

I like how on the other thread you said that Marvel abstracts and celestials can gain or lose dimensions as they want, yet when I say the same thing here about the Shinza Gods, it's an "outerversalist fallacy".

You've got some pretty heavy double standards going on.

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#31 Edited by Yasindermann (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause: The difference is that there is no proof and feats for the hadou gods, that they can be a infinite-dimensional being (IF THEY WANT). The marvel cosmology varries heavily. Now, it is just a infinite baseline multiverse (5-dimensional), sometimes it was a infinite-dimensional multiverse, etc. That's the difference between marvel abstracts and hadou gods and that's because marvel abstracts can gain or lose dimensions if they want.

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#32 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause said:

I l

@sungsam said:
@zerothcause said:

DI's cosmology is less "10D" or "24D" than it is "whatever the Throne God wants it to be"

They're the source of dimensional space, and they can make the universe have as many dimensions as they want. That's why Yakou's 24D barriers got beat so hard - because he was fighting against beings who can just say they have 25D fists.

That's an Outerversalist fallacy. Which is not accepted in Multiverse debates generally on this board now. Thanks to me and my bloc, we deal with people like you all the time.

You're gonna have a bumpy ride on this forum if you're just gonna parrot VSBW frog talk.

I like how on the other thread you said that Marvel abstracts and celestials can gain or lose dimensions as they want, yet when I say the same thing here about the Shinza Gods, it's an "outerversalist fallacy".

You've got some pretty heavy double standards going on.

Not as they want, Marvel's Multiverse is constantly making new Multiverses within its bottoms every instant, whether they like it or not. Unlike your primitive ol' craft Cosmology. Actually, all Infinite-D of recent with Quantum expanding Cosmologies fictions lolstomp your petty Craft verse to shreds even with the Infinite-D wank because your layered cosmology is inferior to other verses.

That said, DI Gods have a small Dimensional Multiverse to work from to scale to compared to Marvel.

Unless Hajun has feats of stomping an Infinitely Higher Infinity order of Infinity Layered entity like Living Tribunal in his hay day, that is endlessly creating new Multiverses, we have no reason to believe that he can. I only gave Hajun the win because Marvel is deteriorating its own Cosmic hierarchy at the moment.

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#33 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, let's see. Mercurius made the universe into an infinite multiverse just for fun.

Yakou's barriers are actually referring to higher dimensions, not just that he had 24 barriers that were each dimensions. The text uses the character for dimensions as in higher dimensions, not for dimensions like other universes. The Tenma were easily able to break through that, and the Tenma are all much weaker than Mercurius.

I'm not sure if you know how taikyoku ranking works, so I'll just give a quick explanation. A person with 1 taikyoku is literally nothing to a person with 2 taikyoku. They can't do anything. They're so weak and small in comparison to a person who has a single digit more in their Taikyoku value, that they literally can't be seen. And it's not just "physical" power. Mind hax, soul hax, reality warping, concept haxing, all that stuff, none of it works on a person with more taikyoku.

For example, in Kajiri Kamui Kagura, Shiori is a character with 60 taikyoku (when she becomes a god). Her special power is that she can summon an infinite number of alternate versions of herself from infinite parallel universes. And a technique using this power is that she can compress all those infinite copies of herself into a single being and then punch someone, essentially multiplying the force of her punch by infinity.

However, to someone like Habaki Sakagami, who has 65 taikyoku, even if she multiplied the force of her attacks by infinity, she couldn't do anything to him. This would be the same as if it was someone with 61 taikyoku, but when it comes to Hajun, whether it's a taikyoku value difference of 1 or 5, it results in the same, for reasons I'll get to later. Having a higher taikyoku value than someone puts you literally beyond infinitely above them, because even multiplying your power by infinity doesn't do anything to them.

Now, Mercurius has 90 taikyoku.

The second strongest person in the verse is Tenma Yato, who has 100 taikyoku.

Hajun has infinite taikyoku, and even though it's already infinite, it keeps rising to go beyond that. That's why it doesn't matter whether its a 1 or a 5 difference in taikyoku that makes you beyond infinitely above someone, because he's going to have difference between anyone with a finite taikyoku value.

So basically.

Hajun, the guy with infinite taikyoku, is (infinitely and rising) beyond infinitely above Tenma Yato, who is (10 times) beyond infinitely above Mercurius, who is able to turn the world into an infinite multiverse because he feels like it, and who is (about 25 times) beyond infinitely above people who can casually shatter 24 dimensional shields.

Yeah there's a lot of "infinitely"s in there, but that's how Taikyoku works. Blame Masada

Also notice that not once did I mention anything being beyond dimensions or outerversal or whatever.

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#35 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: Where was it shown that the current marvel multiverse is just a infinite baseline multiverse (5-dimensional)?

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#36 Edited by etriel (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonystark6999 said:

@yasindermann: Where was it shown that the current marvel multiverse is just a infinite baseline multiverse (5-dimensional)?

never, thats just sungsam being nitpicky. i would ignore it. marvel is still infinite-d arguably.

OT: lt stomps. no need to entertain outerversalist pseudo-intellectual trolls with new accounts.

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#37 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Even let's agree that current Marvel is baseline Multiversal. I don't know how does it reduce LT's power.

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#38 Edited by Galactic_1000 (5586 posts) - - Show Bio

Hajun

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#39 Edited by Kredory (32 posts) - - Show Bio

LT solos the verse. Hajun has zero feats required to make him even comparable to Multi Eternity, only fake ass statements and word games.

Saying that to a visual novel character is ironic.

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#40 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

@kredory said:
@tonystark6999 said:

LT solos the verse. Hajun has zero feats required to make him even comparable to Multi Eternity, only fake ass statements and word games.

Saying that to a visual novel character is ironic.

How and Why?

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#41 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5586 posts) - - Show Bio

Also If we follow M Theory Marvel Multiverse is 8D.

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#42 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@galactic_1000 said:

Also If we follow M Theory Marvel Multiverse is 8D.

That's a lie. Because M-Theory is 10D, and Marvel is more often Infinite-D than not.

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#43 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5586 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: M Theory 10D basically means infinite possibilities.

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#44 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5586 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Also M-Theory is 11D.

Count from 0D The Point to 10D infinite possibilities.

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#45 Posted by Kredory (32 posts) - - Show Bio

How and Why?

Alright.

A visual novel is mostly words and less pictures, so don't call statements that you read in the novel fake and flowery language. It's meant to rely on words, it's not like a comic where you can actually see the character's feats. It's also ironic to say that because even comics do the same flowery language and statements. Not all statements are false, if they come from a reliable and non contradictory source then you can definitely use it, like the narrator. But you should make sure if the narrator isn't exaggerating or just being literal.

Hajun definitely has feats, he singlehandedly killed all four of the Hadou Gods and claimed all of their powers after their deaths, except for one god named Tenma Yato. He gained the ability of the god Marie whose curse can decapitate and severe heads which ignores immortality even though the affected can survive it (can't find scans rn but it was able to kill someone who can regenerate from complete destruction of their body and soul IIRC) and many others that I can't explain right now. Plus he has an ability where he erases everything including his fellow Hadou and Gudou Gods from existence except himself.

I'm not here to debate for Hajun since I think he wins quite easily but I'm just here to point something out. Peace.

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#46 Edited by Sungsam (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause

Well, let's see. Mercurius made the universe into an infinite multiverse just for fun.

Baseline Multiversal feat. Happens all the time in Marvel as a normal Universe turns into an Infinite Multiverse. Instantly.

Yakou's barriers are actually referring to higher dimensions, not just that he had 24 barriers that were each dimensions. The text uses the character for dimensions as in higher dimensions, not for dimensions like other universes. The Tenma were easily able to break through that, and the Tenma are all much weaker than Mercurius.

I don't know, there are many many many people saying different things about that same feat. Others are saying it is 24 Dimension barriers, not higher ones. If you can cite the scan for it, it can be quantifiable. Other than that, not really.

I'm not sure if you know how taikyoku ranking works, so I'll just give a quick explanation. A person with 1 taikyoku is literally nothing to a person with 2 taikyoku. They can't do anything. They're so weak and small in comparison to a person who has a single digit more in their Taikyoku value, that they literally can't be seen. And it's not just "physical" power. Mind hax, soul hax, reality warping, concept haxing, all that stuff, none of it works on a person with more taikyoku.

For example, in Kajiri Kamui Kagura, Shiori is a character with 60 taikyoku (when she becomes a god). Her special power is that she can summon an infinite number of alternate versions of herself from infinite parallel universes. And a technique using this power is that she can compress all those infinite copies of herself into a single being and then punch someone, essentially multiplying the force of her punch by infinity.

However, to someone like Habaki Sakagami, who has 65 taikyoku, even if she multiplied the force of her attacks by infinity, she couldn't do anything to him. This would be the same as if it was someone with 61 taikyoku, but when it comes to Hajun, whether it's a taikyoku value difference of 1 or 5, it results in the same, for reasons I'll get to later. Having a higher taikyoku value than someone puts you literally beyond infinitely above them, because even multiplying your power by infinity doesn't do anything to them.

Now, Mercurius has 90 taikyoku.

The second strongest person in the verse is Tenma Yato, who has 100 taikyoku.

Hajun has infinite taikyoku, and even though it's already infinite, it keeps rising to go beyond that. That's why it doesn't matter whether its a 1 or a 5 difference in taikyoku that makes you beyond infinitely above someone, because he's going to have difference between anyone with a finite taikyoku value.

So basically.

Hajun, the guy with infinite taikyoku, is (infinitely and rising) beyond infinitely above Tenma Yato, who is (10 times) beyond infinitely above Mercurius, who is able to turn the world into an infinite multiverse because he feels like it, and who is (about 25 times) beyond infinitely above people who can casually shatter 24 dimensional shields.

Yeah there's a lot of "infinitely"s in there, but that's how Taikyoku works. Blame Masada

That's basically DI's closest to dimensional tiering. I know how Taikyoku works.

But none of that, unfortunately entails anything like Infinite Orders of Infinity, that is Infinitely expanding on its own. And from what I know, Hajun's Taikyoku value is "Immeasurable" which is relative to the person saying that, not really infinite.

Marvel's Multiverse in its peak, created Infinite Universes per Universe every instant, the next instant repeats this, so an instant to instant has no difference, basically, Infinite Generations of Multiverses are created in Marvel per instant. This continues ad infinitium, and is an infinitesimal to the Marvel Omniverse that LT once embodied.

I do agree that Hajun stomps LT, now. But in his peak, without the Starlin wanking Thanos non sense, he would be stomped by LT.

You still have to to deal with the fact that Marvel's Infinite Dimensions are "Transfinite" which in Marvel terms means greater than Infinity, so there is a greater infinity of Dimensions in Marvel, that both LT and the beings he scales to are above.

I actually came across your type of argument before, I just don't agree with it.

Regards, I'm also sorry for accusing you of fallacies you never committed.

@sungsam: Also M-Theory is 11D.

Count from 0D The Point to 10D infinite possibilities.

Exactly, you said M-Theory was 8-D. Which made me chuckle.

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#47 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5586 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I said Marvel Multiverse is 8D.

The reason I said In M-Theory 9D means completely infinite different kinds of Universes,infinite different kinds of Laws of physics etc.

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#48 Edited by etriel (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@galactic_1000 said:

@sungsam: I said Marvel Multiverse is 8D.

The reason I said In M-Theory 9D means completely infinite different kinds of Universes,infinite different kinds of Laws of physics etc.

marvel doesnt follow limited m theory. they follow an infinitely layered infinitely multiplying cosmology model.

what are you trying to get at? mr. "dimensions make no sense".

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#49 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5586 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I never Said dimensions make no sense.

Every time When I said I was talking about Comic Book dimensions.Their dimensions doesn't make any sense.

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#50 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1916 posts) - - Show Bio

Composite Living Tribunal I think would edge out a victory.